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News & ArtsSunday, October 18, 2009
Hetero / Religion Every Child Deserves a Mother and a Father, There Is No Morality Without Religion, Etc.
Posted by Dan Savage on Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 12:20 PM
A man circumcises himself, and winds up bleeding "in nine places," requires stitches, and his penis gets a nasty, home-circumcision-related infection. Three years later the same man circumcises his four-year-old son using a razor blade, a cutting board, and a "blood coagulant meant for horses." A judge find that the man did not show "reasonable care," and convicts him of negligence.
A little background: doctors had warned the man that circumcising a four-year-old was too risky—too risky for doctors to consider doing it. The man did it anyway. And why did he use a horse coagulant? "Because it was cheaper than a $30 coagulant for people." And how'd the procedure go? "He laid DJ on clean garbage bags on the kitchen floor and put a towel or diaper under him, then cut the foreskin, sometimes with a sawing motion." The court found that the razor the man used was "neither sharp nor sterile." And why did the man do this to his kid?
DJW is a former Jehovah's Witness who now follows the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. Here’s what happened, according to a summary of the case in the judge’s ruling: DJW became interested in circumcision after reading the books of Richard Hoskins, who advocates circumcision and claims there are Biblical answers to "all of the problems in society, including the number of abortions and homosexuals, and the national debt," judge wrote.
2
Dan you really should seek counseling.
This stuff happens but you don't have to obsess over it or wallow in it. It's not like you're doing anything to reduce behavior like this, you're just indulging in ghoulish gloating leering rubbernecking.
This stuff happens but you don't have to obsess over it or wallow in it. It's not like you're doing anything to reduce behavior like this, you're just indulging in ghoulish gloating leering rubbernecking.
3
When I first moused over the link, I misread the domain as "vanconversion.com" (instead of vancouversun.com) and thought, "how fitting."
Ask his son about that in ten or fifteen years and see what he has to say.
...Justice Marion Allan of the Supreme Court of British Columbia in Vancouver ruled Wednesday that the negligence charge was warranted but acquitted DJW on charges of aggravated assault and assault with a weapon...
Ask his son about that in ten or fifteen years and see what he has to say.
5
"too risky for doctors to consider doing it"
Slight nitpick here - snipping a 4 year old is no more risky than snipping a newborn. The risks actually tend to decrease with older patients. And I've never heard of doctors refusing based on the age. I know one person who converted to Judaism in his 70s, and his doctor snipped him without a fuss.
Your point still stands - this father is a fucking idiot, but he would be the same idiot no matter how old his poor son was.
Slight nitpick here - snipping a 4 year old is no more risky than snipping a newborn. The risks actually tend to decrease with older patients. And I've never heard of doctors refusing based on the age. I know one person who converted to Judaism in his 70s, and his doctor snipped him without a fuss.
Your point still stands - this father is a fucking idiot, but he would be the same idiot no matter how old his poor son was.
6
So the solution to the national debt is home circumcisions? Well, I'll be damned. Mysterious ways, indeed.
7
Didn't that homophobic Orthodox guy you were arguing with a while back try to circumcise himself when he was a teenager?
11
Also, Richard Hoskins's ideas about circumcision aren't new. Isaac ben Yedaiah, a thirteenth century French rabbi, argued that circumcised men were more chaste and virtuous than uncircumcised men because circumcised men were more prone to premature ejaculation. My personal experience doesn't bear this out, but it's an interesting theory.
12
Re: the blockquote I put in @3--
You know, if this guy had attacked any OTHER part of his son with a razor blade (face, hands, chest, etc.), there is no doubt that he would have been convicted in a heartbeat of the assault charges and would be in prison for years if not decades. But because it was his PENIS, which is presumed to belong to his parents or God or his future spouse and which tribal elders, shamans, and other muckymucks have had tacit permission to abuse for millenia, Pop gets a pass.
We are not as far removed as we may think from societies where ritual female genital mutilation is still common.
And how the hell was this nitwit able to appeal this all the way to the B.C. Supreme Court? I smell a fundie-supported legal-defense effort here.
You know, if this guy had attacked any OTHER part of his son with a razor blade (face, hands, chest, etc.), there is no doubt that he would have been convicted in a heartbeat of the assault charges and would be in prison for years if not decades. But because it was his PENIS, which is presumed to belong to his parents or God or his future spouse and which tribal elders, shamans, and other muckymucks have had tacit permission to abuse for millenia, Pop gets a pass.
We are not as far removed as we may think from societies where ritual female genital mutilation is still common.
And how the hell was this nitwit able to appeal this all the way to the B.C. Supreme Court? I smell a fundie-supported legal-defense effort here.
14
Does religion turn people into dangerous kooks, or are the dangerous kooks just attracted to religions? Either way, this guy's definitely a dangerous kook, and he needs to be put someplace where he can't slice and dice anybody's genitals.
15
@ 14,
I think religion attracts the ignorant and the intellectually lazy because it doesn't require them to actually think for themselves or learn anything new. Someone else does all the heavy mental lifting for them.
I think religion attracts the ignorant and the intellectually lazy because it doesn't require them to actually think for themselves or learn anything new. Someone else does all the heavy mental lifting for them.
16
Yup, of all the millions of Christians in America, most of them are proponents, if not practitioners, of home circumcision. Nice work Dan. Don't let anyone tell you you're not a real journalist or editorialist. You really bring it.
18
@ 10, Dan said that. What the report actually says is:
No reason is given for why some doctors refused to do it. Dan jumped to the "too risky" conclusion. (It's probably right, but the evidence supporting it isn't there.)
I believe "seandr" is a doctor, but I'm not sure.
In 2006, DJW began asking doctors about the circumcision of DJ. A few doctors advised against circumcising a four-year-old boy and refused to help DJW.
One doctor that agreed to do it was too expensive, charging $2,000 to $5,000. DJW decided to do it himself.
No reason is given for why some doctors refused to do it. Dan jumped to the "too risky" conclusion. (It's probably right, but the evidence supporting it isn't there.)
I believe "seandr" is a doctor, but I'm not sure.
19
#2 Dan is leading. It's clear you have no idea what leadership looks like. How did that happen? These posts again show the lie of "One Mother One Father" being the totally of good child raising. It's a lie, always has been a lie always will be a lie. No two ways about that.
Knowledge is power.
Knowledge is power.
20
In anycase this guy shouldn't be allowed to have a kid - seriously. Can we give him a 'better' circumcision and cut it all off so the father can no longer breed?
23
@ 12:
Aside from the criminal negligence, he was charged with aggravated assault and assault with a weapon. In the first instance, the justice noted that while the injuries were serious, they were not life-threatening, a requirement of the charge of aggravated assault. As for assault with a weapon, the justice noted that the father did not wield the razor as a weapon and that the razor wasn't intended for use in causing death or injury. Nitpicky, perhaps, but that's how the law works - you actually need to meet the elements of the charge to be convicted.
Also, the BC Supreme Court is a court of first-instance for most civil hearings and the more serious criminal matters. It can also be an appellate court, but isn't in this case. For some criminal charges, the prosecutor can elect to have the case heard in front of a Supreme Court justice or jury instead of a provincial court judge, who deals with smaller crimes. The BC Appeals Court is the highest court in British Columbia.
Aside from the criminal negligence, he was charged with aggravated assault and assault with a weapon. In the first instance, the justice noted that while the injuries were serious, they were not life-threatening, a requirement of the charge of aggravated assault. As for assault with a weapon, the justice noted that the father did not wield the razor as a weapon and that the razor wasn't intended for use in causing death or injury. Nitpicky, perhaps, but that's how the law works - you actually need to meet the elements of the charge to be convicted.
Also, the BC Supreme Court is a court of first-instance for most civil hearings and the more serious criminal matters. It can also be an appellate court, but isn't in this case. For some criminal charges, the prosecutor can elect to have the case heard in front of a Supreme Court justice or jury instead of a provincial court judge, who deals with smaller crimes. The BC Appeals Court is the highest court in British Columbia.
24
There's another version of the story here:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbi…
And it includes this telling detail: in court, the father was asked if he had used ice to numb the child's penis. His answer: "Where would the Israelites have gotten ice?"
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbi…
And it includes this telling detail: in court, the father was asked if he had used ice to numb the child's penis. His answer: "Where would the Israelites have gotten ice?"
25
I think, Urgutha Forka @22, it has to do with the whole Pan = Satan thing, where SatanPan is the only big penis in the whole Abrahamic mythology, hence penis = evil.
In pretty much every other mythology known to man penises are recognized as an engine of life, so when gods come, rivers flood, rain falls and all the girly things (grass, trees, crops, etc.) grow. Which is why primitive decor is rife with phalli.
Another interesting exception is the Classical Greco-Roman mythology, though while they were obsessed with correct proportion, it didn't stop the earthier gods from being divinely endowed, nor fringe religious groups being mightily appreciative of said endowments.
In general, Abrahamic mythology just has a lot of issues and has been skipping its medication for some time now.
In pretty much every other mythology known to man penises are recognized as an engine of life, so when gods come, rivers flood, rain falls and all the girly things (grass, trees, crops, etc.) grow. Which is why primitive decor is rife with phalli.
Another interesting exception is the Classical Greco-Roman mythology, though while they were obsessed with correct proportion, it didn't stop the earthier gods from being divinely endowed, nor fringe religious groups being mightily appreciative of said endowments.
In general, Abrahamic mythology just has a lot of issues and has been skipping its medication for some time now.
26
I guess religious nuttery counts as an insanity defense. Please tell me the guy was institutionalized, or at least had his kid taken away.
27
How the hell do you get a 4 year old to just lay there and have that done??
Did he drug the kid first??
Did he drug the kid first??
28
19
yes.
very clear.
where is Dan leading?
what is Dan's idea to lessen the nauseating flood of abuse he collects and posts?
yes.
very clear.
where is Dan leading?
what is Dan's idea to lessen the nauseating flood of abuse he collects and posts?
29
... I actually cried, I felt so bad for this kid.
Did "DJW" forget the story in the bible where Abraham tried to sacrifice his young son cuz God told him to, but when God changed his mind, the sacrifice was halted, just short of actually killing the boy?
Did DJW forget that Abraham's son never spoke to him again?
He might as well never ask his son for any favor ever again, as that poor kid will probably grow up and kill that crazy bastard.
Did "DJW" forget the story in the bible where Abraham tried to sacrifice his young son cuz God told him to, but when God changed his mind, the sacrifice was halted, just short of actually killing the boy?
Did DJW forget that Abraham's son never spoke to him again?
He might as well never ask his son for any favor ever again, as that poor kid will probably grow up and kill that crazy bastard.
30
@28 - Isn't it clear? Dan is leading to the point in the title of the post. Every child deserves a mother and a father, and there is not morality without religion. He said it straight out!
31
Dan, it's not especially risky to circumsize a 4 year old, it just hurts for longer than it would for an infant, because 4 year olds don't heal as astonishingly fast as infants. And the 4 year old is likely to remember it.
I'm willing to bet that doctors didn't want to do it for those reasons, not because of medical risk. I know people who've been circumsized for for religious reasons as adults. And a Spanish friendsays that there infants are rarely circumsized, but it's fairly common for boys to be circumsized due to medical issues.)
Still, the guy is nuts and shouldn't be allowed alone with children.
I'm willing to bet that doctors didn't want to do it for those reasons, not because of medical risk. I know people who've been circumsized for for religious reasons as adults. And a Spanish friendsays that there infants are rarely circumsized, but it's fairly common for boys to be circumsized due to medical issues.)
Still, the guy is nuts and shouldn't be allowed alone with children.
32
This is not an isolated case. This guy was just following "god's orders". Plus he wanted to make his son look like him. Sound familiar?
A similar case in the US recently had a father cutting both of his son's with a utility knife right now. Same sick scenario. Religious nutcase dad.
Google "circumcision dad utility knife" and while you're at it "herpes rabbi circumcision deaths". Everyone who cuts children's genitals and causes even the most horrible injury way beyond the circumcision gets off easy. Punishment is only ever a slap on the wrist. Judge doesn't want public to consider circumcision of any child an aggravated sexual assault or else we'd have to put those sick "doctors" who make their fortunes slicing the genitals of babies behind bars.
A similar case in the US recently had a father cutting both of his son's with a utility knife right now. Same sick scenario. Religious nutcase dad.
Google "circumcision dad utility knife" and while you're at it "herpes rabbi circumcision deaths". Everyone who cuts children's genitals and causes even the most horrible injury way beyond the circumcision gets off easy. Punishment is only ever a slap on the wrist. Judge doesn't want public to consider circumcision of any child an aggravated sexual assault or else we'd have to put those sick "doctors" who make their fortunes slicing the genitals of babies behind bars.
33
At least there's this:
"A doctor testified that the boy's penis has healed nicely and looks normal"
And also this:
"In April, 2007, D.J.W. dosed his son with honey wine, placed him on clean garbage bags and a diaper on his kitchen floor, and used razor blades boiled in water as well as a veterinary powder suitable for livestock and horses to deal with bleeding. The boy said “ouch,” cried for less than two minutes and fell asleep. The father gave the boy ice cream “and told [his son] he could pick all the movies for a week,” said the ruling."
Sick bastard, and yes, the kid has been taken away.
Dan, you should really start linking to the globe and mail instead of the damn vancouver sun
"A doctor testified that the boy's penis has healed nicely and looks normal"
And also this:
"In April, 2007, D.J.W. dosed his son with honey wine, placed him on clean garbage bags and a diaper on his kitchen floor, and used razor blades boiled in water as well as a veterinary powder suitable for livestock and horses to deal with bleeding. The boy said “ouch,” cried for less than two minutes and fell asleep. The father gave the boy ice cream “and told [his son] he could pick all the movies for a week,” said the ruling."
Sick bastard, and yes, the kid has been taken away.
Dan, you should really start linking to the globe and mail instead of the damn vancouver sun
34
This is one of those stories that really begs for follow-up in twenty years or so. I hope the kid gets counseling and grows up to be a well-adjusted, happy adult, and, if he does, it would be interesting and useful study. Of course if he's traumatized and never gets any help and grows up just as nutty as his father he'll make the news anyway.
35
@23: I want to know what ridiculous definition of "injury" that court was using if cutting off part of the kid's anatomy doesn't fall under "intending to cause...injury."
36
I think Dan Savage clearly gets off on these reports of abuse and mutilation. He offers to strategy for fighting back and ending this. He attacks those who do stand up and fight back. Hmmm.
37
As if an all powerful God would care about a foreskin. If God didn't like uncut men, why would he give us foreskins in the first place? This is one of the many reasons it's bad to believe in imaginary beings. People can imagine some terrible atrocities, and do them in the name of their pretend God.
38
@25 It's probably simpler than that. If there's nothing else that Religious leaders (Catholic priests, Ted Haggard, Et al.) have shown us is that they're all closet fags or pedophiles and likely both.
39
37 - Circumcision wasn't such a bad idea back in the day it originated...before bathing and soap and all. Problem is, that, like other hygiene and disease prevention rules (including those about gay sex), is misinterpreted by modern morons as being God's immutable will.
Stupidity is the real scourge on society.
Stupidity is the real scourge on society.
40
After watching that ep of Bullshit about male circumcision I'm firmly against them - at any age. Also I hear it decreases sensitivity.
43
Personal TMI to follow - I suffered (and I mean SUFFERED) from phimosis - use the interwebber and look it up - and was circumcised when I was four. By a doctor, in a hospital and I still remember because it FUCKING HURT LIKE HELL. What's worse, is that I now know that a full on circumcision was probably not needed and that there are less destructive methods for fixing said condition I'd like my foreskin back. On the upside, it's made my full blown kink for uncut penis pretty easy to understand-the nylon track suit thing I 'm not so sure about....
To this day I am a strong proponent of making all non-medical circumcisions absolutely illegal; if you belong to some douche bag religion requiring human sacrifice (remember to BBQ your foreskins so God is happy) then you can wait till your boy is an eighteen year old man and he can decide for himself. Religion is no excuse-Aztecs don't get to chop the steal beating hearts out of virgins either.
To this day I am a strong proponent of making all non-medical circumcisions absolutely illegal; if you belong to some douche bag religion requiring human sacrifice (remember to BBQ your foreskins so God is happy) then you can wait till your boy is an eighteen year old man and he can decide for himself. Religion is no excuse-Aztecs don't get to chop the steal beating hearts out of virgins either.
44
37
Totally.
After all, if there really was a God wouldn't he have given the faggots a hole for fucking and a separate hole for shitting?
I mean, Really.
Totally.
After all, if there really was a God wouldn't he have given the faggots a hole for fucking and a separate hole for shitting?
I mean, Really.
45
@11 There's actually some studies that have been done and published in the British Journal of Urology that indicate that circumcision does increase premature ejaculation and a whole host of other sexual dysfunctions (Increased chances of painful intercourse for women? You bet! Decreased sensitivity? You know it!). Although I think this here is pretty much the only argument you need against neo-natal circumcision.
www.infocirc.org/fourn.htm
www.infocirc.org/fourn.htm
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