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News & ArtsWednesday, October 21, 2009
Religion America
Posted by Charles Mudede on Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 8:10 AM
This is one side of America:
The report:
INDIANAPOLIS (WISH) In the video, the suspect brandishes a gun telling Advance America worker Angela Montez times are hard and he has no choice.When she starts to cry, he hugs her. Then she begins talking to him about God and the two of them pray together.
She described the episode later to a 911 operator... "I started crying and praying and telling him don't do this. He's too young to throw away his life. He talked to me a little bit, and maybe after 15 minutes he took the gun out and started crying again," Montez told the operator.
Montez said that she and Smith were both crying as he held the weapon.
This is another side of America:
(CNN) On October 26, a dozen bustling New York City subway stations will be adorned with the ads as "part of a coordinated multi-organizational advertising campaign designed to raise awareness about people who don't believe in a god", according to a statement from the group, the Big Apple Coalition of Reason.Though I'm an atheist (or at least a Spinozist), I'm much more drawn to the substance of the first news story than the substance of the second. In the first American story, we find the depths of the human condition; in the second, the heights of human arrogance.New York City's subway system is one of the busiest in the world with over 5 million riders per day and over 1.6 billion total passengers in 2008, according to the Metro Transit Authority.
Recognizing this, the Big Apple Coalition of Reason decided the "best bang for the buck" was to place posters in popular subway stations to capitalize on the amount of potential viewers, says Michael De Dora Jr., Executive Director of the New York Center for Inquiry, one of the associated atheist groups
The advertisements ask the question, written simply over an image of a blue sky with wispy white clouds: "A million New Yorkers are good without God. Are you?"True, the prayers in the first story did not meet a holy ear on the other side of the known world; but in all honesty, how can we say there is no God when 70 percent of the universe is basically unknown, 25 percent is hypothetical matter, and only 0.5 percent is what we can see with our eyes? 0.5 percent is the whole human picture show.
That robber is a descendant of Raskolnikov.
1
Wow so many things wrong with what you just wrote. First of all, 0.5% is very, very generous. I would say it is more like .0001^50. Second of all, you accuse the Big Apple Coalition of Reason of partaking on this advertising campaign "heights of human arrogance." What? Are you serious? Third of all you clearly state that you are an Atheist, yet a few sentences later you say, "in all honesty, how can we say there is no God when 70 percent of the universe is basically unknown." Do you know what Atheism is Charles?
2
This is probably the first time I can find myself agreeing with anything you have written here on Slog. Good post!
3
"but in all honesty, how can we say there is no God when 70 percent of the universe is basically unknown, 25 percent is hypothetical matter, and only 0.5 percent is what we can see with our eyes? 0.5 percent is the whole human picture show."
The point of the advertisements isn't to prove that there is no god. It is to raise awareness of the fact that a large number of New Yorkers don't believe in god, and yet still are being "good."
The point of the advertisements isn't to prove that there is no god. It is to raise awareness of the fact that a large number of New Yorkers don't believe in god, and yet still are being "good."
5
Believing that there is no god and not believing that there is a god are two very different things. Your statement could easily apply to the first, but not to the second. Many atheists simply do not believe that there is a god but are open to new evidence; they do not believe that there is no god.
6
Where is this god or gods? And why is one god good and others not so much? And why not believe what you see? It's the only thing that has advanced mankind. Religion had it's chance and it made people miserable and proved it was incapable of any real decency and morality.
7
Since 70% of the universe is unknown then there is a good chance that the Easter Bunny is out there..out there somewhere. Praise be to the Easter Bunny!!!
8
There's a lot of things that are unknown; that doesn't mean there's a god. One thing does not follow another.
Letting people know that there are a lot of people who don't believe in god (or haven't heard any rational explanation) is not arrogance.
I'm glad this woman was able to get to this poor kid. It is a good story and that he only took $20 (when clearly the money drawer looked full) means it wasn't in his heart to rob the office. But religion didn't save her; it was common sense and a good heart.
Letting people know that there are a lot of people who don't believe in god (or haven't heard any rational explanation) is not arrogance.
I'm glad this woman was able to get to this poor kid. It is a good story and that he only took $20 (when clearly the money drawer looked full) means it wasn't in his heart to rob the office. But religion didn't save her; it was common sense and a good heart.
9
I'm glad that the Indianapolis story had the ending it did, yes what that man did was wrong, and he knew it, but even if one doesn't believe in it, there's no denying that power of prayer helped in that situation. Had the worker not known of how amazing such a tool is and how to use it, this would probably would've had another outcome.
10
AMAZIN TOOOLS OF APPETITE FOR DESTRUCTION!
HEARD YA NAME DROP, I TOLD YA TO LEAVE THAT ALONE, TOLD YA TO GET YOUR OWN, HEARD YA NAME DROP, WHEN I LEFT BLOG YO I CAME OUT A WINNAH, OH OH OH OH!
HEARD YA NAME DROP, I TOLD YA TO LEAVE THAT ALONE, TOLD YA TO GET YOUR OWN, HEARD YA NAME DROP, WHEN I LEFT BLOG YO I CAME OUT A WINNAH, OH OH OH OH!
11
I don't see how you can state that this comment is in any way arrogant: "A million New Yorkers are good without God. Are you?" The intention is to get people to realize that we can be good without *believing* in god. As far as I can tell the intent is not to explicitly state that there is no god. Instead we are meant to consider that many of us are able to live our lives happily and decently without turning to mysticism. That's not arrogance, it's humanistic at best. Perhaps arrogance is believing that an all-powerful god would actually care about the day-to-day experiences of 6 billion people, along with whatever else is going on in the universe. Or that we have a firm grasp on what that god is, if it exists at all.
12
Seriously? SLOG, touched by a moving moment, turns off brain.
If you want to be accepted and less demonized by society in general as an atheist awareness nmust be raised.
Of course the first story is more touching, but you're comparing apples to... Porcupines.
Are these signs as arrogant as say... Signs that claim you must enter a church to meet the one try god or burn in hell? How 'bout going to war cuz god said to?
A lot of unknown universe does not make god more likely. See Easter bunny post above.
Damn. The robber and shop keep could have bonded over decency, economic struggles, sick kids. Just because they bond over magic doesn't make magic inherantly more valuable or true.
If you want to be accepted and less demonized by society in general as an atheist awareness nmust be raised.
Of course the first story is more touching, but you're comparing apples to... Porcupines.
Are these signs as arrogant as say... Signs that claim you must enter a church to meet the one try god or burn in hell? How 'bout going to war cuz god said to?
A lot of unknown universe does not make god more likely. See Easter bunny post above.
Damn. The robber and shop keep could have bonded over decency, economic struggles, sick kids. Just because they bond over magic doesn't make magic inherantly more valuable or true.
13
Yes, reminding people packed onto subways that, contrary to incessant bombardment by the contrary idea, non-religious people can be good people is the height of arrogance. Or, um, I mean, no, it's not.
I saw a couple minutes of "Oprah" yesterday and the story being presented was horrible - a man probably knowingly infected most of his 9+ concurrent girlfriends with HIV. After repeatedly insisting there must have been signs they missed (not-too-subtle blaming the victim stuff), Oprah got the five women on the show to come up with a few indications that he was bad news. Most of them mentioned the "red flag" that he wasn't a religious person. Oprah let this stand as evidence that someone wasn't a good person, even appeared to agree with it, and no one in the audience or on the stage called it into question either. This kind of attitude is displayed all the time. So, personally, I don't mind a few ads on subways to remind people that this is bullshit.
I saw a couple minutes of "Oprah" yesterday and the story being presented was horrible - a man probably knowingly infected most of his 9+ concurrent girlfriends with HIV. After repeatedly insisting there must have been signs they missed (not-too-subtle blaming the victim stuff), Oprah got the five women on the show to come up with a few indications that he was bad news. Most of them mentioned the "red flag" that he wasn't a religious person. Oprah let this stand as evidence that someone wasn't a good person, even appeared to agree with it, and no one in the audience or on the stage called it into question either. This kind of attitude is displayed all the time. So, personally, I don't mind a few ads on subways to remind people that this is bullshit.
14
Now you're just trolling atheists. Don't rile them Charles, or you'll receive a stern dressing-down!
16
The Atheist advertisement comes off just as annoying as any religious ad.
Perhaps most non-religious people, like myself, are Leavemethefuckaloneists, rather than Atheists.
Perhaps most non-religious people, like myself, are Leavemethefuckaloneists, rather than Atheists.
17
Most brilliant post ever Charles. To those defending the subway ad, it's not the content that makes it arrogant, it's the very fact that it's a subway ad. One-to-many advertising is the standard MO of all your Christian evangelical . What the woman in Indiana did, was show true kindness and compassion to a desperate individual. You hucksterscan be an atheist and still be touched by that.
I also loved the Raskolnikov reference-- so apt.
I also loved the Raskolnikov reference-- so apt.
18
OK, my post @17 got totally mangled by out of control cut and paste. Never mind. Bottom line, you are right Charles, what the woman in Indiana did was truly compassionate, and the subway ad is obnoxious. And Dostoevsky rules...
19
@17 Yes, by all means let us remain quiet and not let others who might be atheist/agnostic know that we exist and that it is okay to not believe in a god. I don't think we are anywhere near the point where I would say we have too many advertisements out there.
I am not particularly touched when I see people call on authority figures that may or may not exist to solve real-world problems. When are we going to take full responsibility for our actions? And when will that become the "touching" thing to do?
I am not particularly touched when I see people call on authority figures that may or may not exist to solve real-world problems. When are we going to take full responsibility for our actions? And when will that become the "touching" thing to do?
20
@19 - There are plenty of agnostics out there who are good with "God", but just don't give fuck all about religion.
21
@20 Granted. So presumably the ad is not targeting them. They can happily ignore these types of ads as easily as I can ignore ads for the latest reality tv shows. I think it is safe to say that most people find ads annoying any time they aren't relevant to them personally. I think it is a stretch to claim that these same ads are arrogant.
22
"BTW we exist in moderately large numbers" is Obnoxious?
No, it isn't
It wouldn't be if it were Wiccans
It wouldn't be if it were Jews
It wouldn't be if it were Homosexuals
It wouldn't be if it were Immigrants
and it also isn't if it is Atheists.
No, it isn't
It wouldn't be if it were Wiccans
It wouldn't be if it were Jews
It wouldn't be if it were Homosexuals
It wouldn't be if it were Immigrants
and it also isn't if it is Atheists.
23
Spinoza was an atheist (to equate god with nature is to say that god is not), but that has nothing to do with what 1 wrote, expressing your lack of understanding of what atheism is. Spinoza would never say that we can't know whether god exists because we have yet to explore the unknown universe. Spinoza was not an agnostic, and neither are those who follow him, such as Einstein. These people are atheists, not those who believe that we can't know or know now, but people who lack belief in supernatural consciousnessnes(es).
As to this, I find it an incoherent parallel. If it is your attempt to express that the transformative power of theism is somehow more relevant than non-theism, in what way? The human condition? Is there a fact you'd like to mention about the human condition that connected with you specifically that makes theism WIN against atheism in this case?
Anyway, keep in mind that an out gay man will be president of the united states before an out atheist will. Further, it's important to make people in this country aware of the fact that one does not need to believe in the christian divine dictator to be a good person (given that over seventy five per cent of it is christian, and tens of millions take a literalist position about the authorship of the bible)...a lot of people simply don't understand that, and don't understand what being good means independently of believing in god no matter what you do (including murder and pedophilia...)
As to this, I find it an incoherent parallel. If it is your attempt to express that the transformative power of theism is somehow more relevant than non-theism, in what way? The human condition? Is there a fact you'd like to mention about the human condition that connected with you specifically that makes theism WIN against atheism in this case?
Anyway, keep in mind that an out gay man will be president of the united states before an out atheist will. Further, it's important to make people in this country aware of the fact that one does not need to believe in the christian divine dictator to be a good person (given that over seventy five per cent of it is christian, and tens of millions take a literalist position about the authorship of the bible)...a lot of people simply don't understand that, and don't understand what being good means independently of believing in god no matter what you do (including murder and pedophilia...)
24
Chaz, you DO know that just because human optical perception is limited to a very narrow range of visible light radiation within the electromagnetic spectrum, roughly between 400-700 nm, we nevertheless have the intellectual capacity to create scientific instruments that have sufficient sensitivity to detect EM radiation all the way up-and-down the spectrum; from radio waves at the low-frequency end to Gamma-Rays at the high-frequency end. We may not be able to "see" these broader, more extreme forms of radiation directly with our limited human senses, but our machines can and can present the results of their observations to us in ways we CAN see.
You of all people should know that there's more than one way to see something, Chaz.
You of all people should know that there's more than one way to see something, Chaz.
25
Overstating his position with ridiculous absolutes is standard Mudede and I usually am amused by it, but he just dogged my boys. Agreed with the defenders- OUR SIDE IS WOEFULLY UNDER-REPPED. Our ad is justified. How many people feel unnecessary shame because in their hearts they don't believe, but their family and friends think they do? Presenting the alternative - which is almost universally reviled by the mainstream of America - is less than arrogant and more necessary.
But to Chas the real arrogance is in plain atheism (as opposed to his Spinozism), for claiming special knowledge of the Universe. Kind of ridiculous, because in the ad, they did nothing of the sort. They merely stated the undeniable truth that It Is Okay To Not Give A Fuck About God.
But to Chas the real arrogance is in plain atheism (as opposed to his Spinozism), for claiming special knowledge of the Universe. Kind of ridiculous, because in the ad, they did nothing of the sort. They merely stated the undeniable truth that It Is Okay To Not Give A Fuck About God.
26
@15 - Right on.
Charles, of course no one knows if there is a god or not. Of course no one knows if there is a Flying Spaghetti Monster either. Maybe there is a pink unicorn god? Why do we insist on letting "We don't know for sure" get in the way of making rational and logical decisions about reality? Of course we don't know for sure, but we sure as well have a damn good idea that there is absolutely no god. It's all fairy tales... Santa Claus, Thor, Obama's Kenyan Citizenship.. it's a way to control people. That's why the prayer worked in this case. It's all fear based. "God says we shouldn't be stealing," is sadly much more effective than "Bob says we shouldn't be stealing," because God's punishment is eternal, Bob's is nothing comparatively.
Charles, of course no one knows if there is a god or not. Of course no one knows if there is a Flying Spaghetti Monster either. Maybe there is a pink unicorn god? Why do we insist on letting "We don't know for sure" get in the way of making rational and logical decisions about reality? Of course we don't know for sure, but we sure as well have a damn good idea that there is absolutely no god. It's all fairy tales... Santa Claus, Thor, Obama's Kenyan Citizenship.. it's a way to control people. That's why the prayer worked in this case. It's all fear based. "God says we shouldn't be stealing," is sadly much more effective than "Bob says we shouldn't be stealing," because God's punishment is eternal, Bob's is nothing comparatively.
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