Find Your Valentine
Slog
News & ArtsFriday, November 13, 2009
Hetero Today in Traditional Marriage
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 8:14 AM
Yesterday we learned that a woman diagnosed with cancer has a 21% chance of being abandoned by her husband while men diagnosed with cancer have 3% chance of being abandoned by their wives. And then there's this stat in the NYT this morning...
Nationally, about a third of female murder victims are killed by a husband or boyfriend each year, according to the Justice Department. But that number was closer to about 45 percent last year in Kentucky.
Once again: if homosexuality was a choice, like conservative Christians insisting that it is, a lot more women would've chosen it by now.
1
how in the FUCK does homosexuality and heterosexuality have anything to do with being abandoned or murdered? nice stretch, prick.
2
Many women HAVE tried it. Or at least given it a good effort after a bad breakup. I can't speak for everyone but it seems like they eventually go back to heterosexual relationships despite their best efforts to be through with men.
Why again does anyone think it is a choice?
Why again does anyone think it is a choice?
3
Whoawhoawhoa. That says that a woman diagnosed with cancer has a 21% chance of _being divorced_, not being abandoned by her husband. A subtle, but significant difference: perhaps some of those women reevaluated their lives and decided to leave themselves?
OK, probably not most of them. But still.
OK, probably not most of them. But still.
4
Some more crimes by the heterosexual male minority: Fort Hood shooting, Seattle cop killing, Portland lab shooting, Florida office shooting, Fitness club shooting, Capitol Hill massacre, South Park murder, Columbine, Virginia Tech shooting, DC snipers, Oklahoma City bombers, all 19 9/11 hijackers. Unabomber, Osama bin Laden, George W. Bush, almost all child molestors, almost all rapists, almost all serial killers, almost all mass murderers.
5
Considering that these percentages include "boyfriends" I'm not sure how these percentages relate to traditional marriage. Please share stats on murder in gay and lesbian relationships. I suspect the percentages would be comparable between gay men and straight men.
6
Man, I'm bisexual, and despite the chance of being raped, murdered, or abandoned during medical crises, as well as being unable to come to terms with what half of the housework constitutes, I still have a longterm boyfriend. Cock is just too nice.
7
@6: Amen on the housework issue. Since when is it unreasonable to want to live in a clean environment?
8
They don't think the DESIRE for some same sex lovin' is a choice, they think that acting upon that desire is a choice. Just as every one of us has wanted to kill someone at sometime or another. They think people should know that it's wrong and act accordingly.
Please don't think I'm defending them here. I'm just explaining their rationale.
The question to put to them is, 'how should a gay person know it's wrong?'
They point to a few verses in Genesis, one verse in Leviticus, a few verses in Paul. The counter to that is, 'do you wear cotton with wool?' Even the Amish ignore that particular dictate.
Faith is a three-legged stool: Scripture, Tradition, and Reason. If the three legs are in balance, the stool is a nice thing to sit upon. If they're not, the stool tips.
A true Christian doesn't do things that don't make sense. The more of them are taught that the traditional way of treating the gays (lesbians, bis, tannies, pagans, mohammadans, everyone who doesn't agree with them) doesn't make sense, the more of them will come to our side.
Please don't think I'm defending them here. I'm just explaining their rationale.
The question to put to them is, 'how should a gay person know it's wrong?'
They point to a few verses in Genesis, one verse in Leviticus, a few verses in Paul. The counter to that is, 'do you wear cotton with wool?' Even the Amish ignore that particular dictate.
Faith is a three-legged stool: Scripture, Tradition, and Reason. If the three legs are in balance, the stool is a nice thing to sit upon. If they're not, the stool tips.
A true Christian doesn't do things that don't make sense. The more of them are taught that the traditional way of treating the gays (lesbians, bis, tannies, pagans, mohammadans, everyone who doesn't agree with them) doesn't make sense, the more of them will come to our side.
9
5ftw
Most of these are going to be live-in boyfriends, people 'shacking up' have a lot more social pathology-
this is not evidence that the institution of heterosexual marriage is flawed but evidence that deviation from it carries a high social cost.
Most of these are going to be live-in boyfriends, people 'shacking up' have a lot more social pathology-
this is not evidence that the institution of heterosexual marriage is flawed but evidence that deviation from it carries a high social cost.
10
the point you attempt to make remains nonsense. We already know it's not a choice, and we already know some Christians think it is (though my guess is most of them don't think that at all, they just say that). Do you really want the argument framed in terms such as you're setting out? Cheap, juvenile, repetitive, and just plain weak...
11
#3 Ha! I was thinking along a similar path. I wonder if anyone has divorced in order to keep the continued treatment cost of dealing with the cancer from breaking their bank? After divorce the man would not be liable for the cost and might therefore be able to still put the kids thru college or some such. Just a thought.
But I am really quite ready to believe many men are that shallow. After all - it is appearance that attracts them otherwise we wouldn't wear those damn shoes of our own volition!
But I am really quite ready to believe many men are that shallow. After all - it is appearance that attracts them otherwise we wouldn't wear those damn shoes of our own volition!
12
8
god, shut up fool
Dan is the world's expert on conservative christian beliefs don't waste his or our time explaining anything to him...
god, shut up fool
Dan is the world's expert on conservative christian beliefs don't waste his or our time explaining anything to him...
13
"FAMILY VALUES" please don't agree with me because my family includes gay men, lesbians, and trans-gender folk. I also strongly support and avocate same sex marriage.
14
God, Dan is really making a reach with these! It's like he's cherry-picking a statistic or reference or literary reference to demean a type of relationship to justify a bigoted viewpoint, what a hypocrite!
15
frankly, i thought the number was closer to 2/3.
perhaps the human male is just inherently more mentally unstable due to testosterone and stubby, incomplete Y genes.
perhaps the human male is just inherently more mentally unstable due to testosterone and stubby, incomplete Y genes.
18
What people also don't notice is that a PREGNANT WOMAN is more at risk than at anytime in her life to be physically abused, raped or murdered by a close male (family or partner). Usually these partners are married. So Family values - I guess yours include violence against women. This is the time when a woman is most vulnerable and its also when she's the most at risk. (Thank god for the pill, it makes us attracted and fall in love with men who are MORE LIKELY TO TAKE CARE OF US and be protective good fathers than our genetically dissimilar, high testosterone sperm donors.)
(BTW: I'm not accusing all straight men of wanting to kill, rape or abuse their preggo gfs, wives, sisters, daughters etc. Its just that men in general are more likely to commit gender based violence and usually with intimate partners -taken from aggregated UN statistics, National crime statistics etc.)
(BTW: I'm not accusing all straight men of wanting to kill, rape or abuse their preggo gfs, wives, sisters, daughters etc. Its just that men in general are more likely to commit gender based violence and usually with intimate partners -taken from aggregated UN statistics, National crime statistics etc.)
19
If only 3% of men with cancer ended up divorced I have to wonder how many men from the same demographic without cancer ended up divorced. It almost seems like a woman prefferes to be married to a man who is dieing. Wow, what does that say?
Get that life insurance money and then onto the pool boy's lap!
Get that life insurance money and then onto the pool boy's lap!
21
I don't know why everyone's so shocked about the cancer stat. Our own beloved Newt Gingrich had his wife served with divorce papers when she was recovering from her mastectomy.
But seriously, this can't be explained away by economics, #11, otherwise there wouldn't be the gender disparity---only 3% of males are abandoned/divorced--check the link.
And where's Kim to comment on the murder stats? I'd like to see her thoughts; they always taught us in our DV classes that the risk stranger danger was nothing compared to the incidence of assault between intimate partners.
But seriously, this can't be explained away by economics, #11, otherwise there wouldn't be the gender disparity---only 3% of males are abandoned/divorced--check the link.
And where's Kim to comment on the murder stats? I'd like to see her thoughts; they always taught us in our DV classes that the risk stranger danger was nothing compared to the incidence of assault between intimate partners.
22
I bet none of these murdered women owned pet kangaroos either. If it weren't for the discriminatory practices of the Animal Control Dept., more women might own pet kangaroos and therefore still be alive.
Seriously, these comparisons are pretty fucking weak Dan. Let's not grasp at straws the same way the bigots do.
Seriously, these comparisons are pretty fucking weak Dan. Let's not grasp at straws the same way the bigots do.
23
If marriage is so bad for society, why do gays want to join in?
Personally, I think if you hate homos, you'd let them get married.
Personally, I think if you hate homos, you'd let them get married.
24
[quote]Seriously, these comparisons are pretty fucking weak Dan. Let's not grasp at straws the same way the bigots do.[/quote]
I think that's kind of the point, #22.
I think that's kind of the point, #22.
25
@13
Bummer. I was so hoping we could hang out and be best buds.
@18
"Usually these partners are married. "
References, please.
Bummer. I was so hoping we could hang out and be best buds.
@18
"Usually these partners are married. "
References, please.
26
i think it's more likely those ladies would choose to leave fucking kentucky, rather than switch teams. sexual orientation doesn't seem to factor in as much as LIVING IN KENTUCKY.
29
I've spent a lot of time in the South. I love the South. It's a great place to be if you're a straight white male.
Everybody else is pretty much shit out of luck, though.
Everybody else is pretty much shit out of luck, though.
30
@20,
It's hard to believe that the people who spend the most time with children and are responsible for almost all of their care also abuse them more. The real question is how men manage to abuse children only slightly less when they spend so little time around children.
It's hard to believe that the people who spend the most time with children and are responsible for almost all of their care also abuse them more. The real question is how men manage to abuse children only slightly less when they spend so little time around children.
31
@24
The 'bigots' argument isn't weak, it's wrong (that being gay is a choice) Is there really any uncovered ground there?. So, how does Dan advance "the cause" by offering up an deliberately inflammatory comment, that is, if you are correct, chosen precisely because it is also weak? What mind will be changed or enlightened? What group will be convinced to join the fight? Dan enjoys being petty and bigoted as much as the Christians do, and he tries to wrap it up in a fight for what he believes is right (or is that righteous?)... again, no different that the Christians (or just about any so-called aggrieved group).
I don't see any difference between HOW Dan chooses to criticize those he disagrees with and who he also criticizes with respect to HOW they go about their disagreement. The use of the same method of disagreement is pure hypocrisy regardless of the validity, or lack thereof, of the actual issue of disagreement. And I'm not talking particularly about this post but rather Dan's general treatment of people he disagrees with. It's all loaded with derogatory terms and insults in addition to an utter disregard for the views for those he disagrees with, which is just as cheap and mean as those he calls out for being just that (and no, I don't buy the argument that it's okay because "they" started it).
Personally, I like to get to civil equality on the high road, and I also happen to think it's also the fastest route as well as in the long term, the most secure.
The 'bigots' argument isn't weak, it's wrong (that being gay is a choice) Is there really any uncovered ground there?. So, how does Dan advance "the cause" by offering up an deliberately inflammatory comment, that is, if you are correct, chosen precisely because it is also weak? What mind will be changed or enlightened? What group will be convinced to join the fight? Dan enjoys being petty and bigoted as much as the Christians do, and he tries to wrap it up in a fight for what he believes is right (or is that righteous?)... again, no different that the Christians (or just about any so-called aggrieved group).
I don't see any difference between HOW Dan chooses to criticize those he disagrees with and who he also criticizes with respect to HOW they go about their disagreement. The use of the same method of disagreement is pure hypocrisy regardless of the validity, or lack thereof, of the actual issue of disagreement. And I'm not talking particularly about this post but rather Dan's general treatment of people he disagrees with. It's all loaded with derogatory terms and insults in addition to an utter disregard for the views for those he disagrees with, which is just as cheap and mean as those he calls out for being just that (and no, I don't buy the argument that it's okay because "they" started it).
Personally, I like to get to civil equality on the high road, and I also happen to think it's also the fastest route as well as in the long term, the most secure.
32
Just a point - if you're married, sometimes the best way to get medical coverage (Medicaid) is to get divorced.
Doesn't mean the ex-spouse deserts you, they just get divorced so you can "crash" at their house but not bankrupt the family.
.... yeah, stats can prove anything, but most of it's crap.
Doesn't mean the ex-spouse deserts you, they just get divorced so you can "crash" at their house but not bankrupt the family.
.... yeah, stats can prove anything, but most of it's crap.
33
@23 that is a very good point for an unregistered troll. marriage is not the holy grail it's purported to be. perhaps once gays get the right to marry, and then discover there was no point. the sooner gay marriage is legalized, the sooner marriage will be consigned to the dustbin of history.
34
attitude devant,
Where's Kim? Working with an actual woman who has to get out.
Yes, women have more to fear from intimate partners, and die at their hands than a random stranger. The statistic is accurate, but is believed to be higher.
Yes, a woman is more likely to be beaten or killed will expecting, yet another reason some woman need to obtain legal and safe abortions.
Not to mention a woman's chance of being murdered increases 100x when she tries to leave.
A child that witness one parent abusing another, has a 70% chance of incorporating that behavior into their adult life, and continuing the cycle of abuse into the next generation.
Never forget that abuse is under reported due to the shame factor. AND, men are also the victims and are far more likely to remain silent.
Sorry, that's short, forgive the typos, please. I've got to get back to work.
-k
Where's Kim? Working with an actual woman who has to get out.
Yes, women have more to fear from intimate partners, and die at their hands than a random stranger. The statistic is accurate, but is believed to be higher.
Yes, a woman is more likely to be beaten or killed will expecting, yet another reason some woman need to obtain legal and safe abortions.
Not to mention a woman's chance of being murdered increases 100x when she tries to leave.
A child that witness one parent abusing another, has a 70% chance of incorporating that behavior into their adult life, and continuing the cycle of abuse into the next generation.
Never forget that abuse is under reported due to the shame factor. AND, men are also the victims and are far more likely to remain silent.
Sorry, that's short, forgive the typos, please. I've got to get back to work.
-k
35
"a woman diagnosed with cancer has a 21% chance of being abandoned by her husband"
Hey, makes John Edwards look pretty gosh darn good for merely cheating on Elizabeth, doesn't it?
Hey, makes John Edwards look pretty gosh darn good for merely cheating on Elizabeth, doesn't it?
36
keshmeshi @ 30,
I can only offer my perspective, from the actual women that I have worked with, so I'm not an expert.
Perfection can be a form of self preservation. If the main/primary abuser can be assured that everything is perfect than every one can breathe for the moment. Unfortunately, trying to make things perfect can result in physical abuse to the child, or the burden of unrealistic expectations put on the child for conduct and behavior. The child also suffers abuse when it witnesses the attacks by the main/primary abuser. And, unfortunately many children find that they suffer at the hands of both parents, the main/primary and the perfection demanding one.
As I said above, there is a 70% chance that they will become abusive themselves as adults.
Tragic.
I can only offer my perspective, from the actual women that I have worked with, so I'm not an expert.
Perfection can be a form of self preservation. If the main/primary abuser can be assured that everything is perfect than every one can breathe for the moment. Unfortunately, trying to make things perfect can result in physical abuse to the child, or the burden of unrealistic expectations put on the child for conduct and behavior. The child also suffers abuse when it witnesses the attacks by the main/primary abuser. And, unfortunately many children find that they suffer at the hands of both parents, the main/primary and the perfection demanding one.
As I said above, there is a 70% chance that they will become abusive themselves as adults.
Tragic.
37
I see Dan's point. The risks of just being female are great and def make me sometimes wish I was a lesbian. Men are a constant threat upon our lives.
39
@28
Hard to say. As Chris Rock put it about OJ Simpson, "I ain't sayin' he shoulda killed her... but I understand"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXJJFT9GZ…
Hard to say. As Chris Rock put it about OJ Simpson, "I ain't sayin' he shoulda killed her... but I understand"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXJJFT9GZ…
40
From what I've heard in the news, just being a lesbian doesn't protect you from violence at the hands of men, though at least it doesn't happen in your own house.
42
by the way, sometimes it is insurance-related pussy-footing that makes men divorce their wives with cancer...i know a lady who got cancer and she and her husband had a quickie divorce so she could get more money from the state....
intersting side note, she later left him. for a lady. but i dont think the insurance divorce/latent lesbian thing are related. nessecarily.
intersting side note, she later left him. for a lady. but i dont think the insurance divorce/latent lesbian thing are related. nessecarily.
43
@25: Oh, we can hang out and be best buds, but only if you'll blow me.
@29: "I love the South. It's a great place to be if you're a straight white male."
And have a fetish for women who can count on one hand the number of teeth left in their heads.
@29: "I love the South. It's a great place to be if you're a straight white male."
And have a fetish for women who can count on one hand the number of teeth left in their heads.
44
Hey, no teeth in a woman can be a good thing in the right circumstances. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it.
45
But if female sexuality is so fluid -- our "superpower," remember -- then actually, we COULD choose lesbianism (and we do, whenever it seems advantageous: in women's colleges, for instance). So what this really shows is that the drawbacks of lesbianism -- chiefly, the fact that it's much harder to find another lesbian to date than it is to find a dude -- outweigh the drawbacks of dating guys.
Plus, most men are nice. They'll give us their jackets when it's cold, they'll buy the drinks, and they'll take the spiders outside for us. It's not such an unattractive arrangement overall.
Plus, most men are nice. They'll give us their jackets when it's cold, they'll buy the drinks, and they'll take the spiders outside for us. It's not such an unattractive arrangement overall.
46
@45
Not all female sexuality is fluid. There's plenty of us out there that don't have a trace of the superpower. Right there with ya, #6.
Not all female sexuality is fluid. There's plenty of us out there that don't have a trace of the superpower. Right there with ya, #6.
47
@7- Define clean.
The religious right knows sexuality is a choice because so very many of their leaders are choosing not to have gay sex everyday.
The religious right knows sexuality is a choice because so very many of their leaders are choosing not to have gay sex everyday.
48
Holy shit - Some of you are so sensative. The guy is just being facetious. He is not saying all straight relationships are bad. He is just pointing out that there are plenty of straight relationships that are really crappy in a somewhat sarcastic manner, which appears to be getting peoples attention. Straight relationships are not superior to gay or lesbian ones. They are basically just as good or bad, depends on the couple. Don't be so touchy about it.
49
Kim, Kim, Kim! Where ARE your priorities, girl? Out there saving women's lives when you could be answering our questions on SLOG?
50
attitude devant,
Thanks for the smile. I'm hear now, but I'm late to the party. I did remember it was byob.
Thanks for the smile. I'm hear now, but I'm late to the party. I did remember it was byob.
51
All you women out there: take some martial arts, and encourage your daughters to do the same. If you're petite, take one that allows you to use your opponent's size against him(/her). You might be smaller and have less muscle mass than most assailants, but brains, training, and awareness can easily make up for brawn. If you have no experience with such things (and really, your naivete is what most predators and abusers rely on), you don't actually hurt people or get hurt during training. Look for a facility where beginners are welcomed and the instructors will work with you to use YOUR frame to the best of its abilities. Some types of martial arts to consider are Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Judo, and Aikido though there are many more.
This advice also goes for anyone 'queer' in any sense. If you know you're likely to be victimized for any reason, this is one way to prepare yourself for (and learn to avoid) a worst possible scenario and get in shape at the same time. Don't blame the victims, but learn from their mistakes and don't repeat them.
This advice also goes for anyone 'queer' in any sense. If you know you're likely to be victimized for any reason, this is one way to prepare yourself for (and learn to avoid) a worst possible scenario and get in shape at the same time. Don't blame the victims, but learn from their mistakes and don't repeat them.
52
"Don't blame the victims, but learn from their mistakes and don't repeat them."
Um, I hate to break it to you, but referring to the an assault as being caused by the victim's "mistakes" in this manner is, in fact, a form of victim blaming.
Learning martial arts is great, but it's not just something you can just pick up casually in your spare time. Sure, there are MA schools that'll lead you to believe you can, but only bullshit McDojos where you can dish out money for a blackbelt without ever actually learning any useful skills. In fact, this describes the majority of schools out there. Learning a REAL martial art, on the other hand requires a MAJOR, many-years-long commitment of time, work, and money that just isn't practical or possible for most people. And even if it was, there simply aren't nearly enough REAL schools out there to begin to address the widespread problem of violence against women.
And finally, it's unlikely that martial arts can be terribly useful in a domestic violence situation. You think an abusive husband is going to LET his wife go out to study FIGHTING? Or marry a woman who can kick his ass? Even if he does, martial arts are unlikely to be of much good against the sorts of cowardly attacks of opportunity a domestic abuser will use against his wife.
Um, I hate to break it to you, but referring to the an assault as being caused by the victim's "mistakes" in this manner is, in fact, a form of victim blaming.
Learning martial arts is great, but it's not just something you can just pick up casually in your spare time. Sure, there are MA schools that'll lead you to believe you can, but only bullshit McDojos where you can dish out money for a blackbelt without ever actually learning any useful skills. In fact, this describes the majority of schools out there. Learning a REAL martial art, on the other hand requires a MAJOR, many-years-long commitment of time, work, and money that just isn't practical or possible for most people. And even if it was, there simply aren't nearly enough REAL schools out there to begin to address the widespread problem of violence against women.
And finally, it's unlikely that martial arts can be terribly useful in a domestic violence situation. You think an abusive husband is going to LET his wife go out to study FIGHTING? Or marry a woman who can kick his ass? Even if he does, martial arts are unlikely to be of much good against the sorts of cowardly attacks of opportunity a domestic abuser will use against his wife.
53
Sexual assault and rape usually happens from someone you know, not some stranger who attacks you and you have the opportunity to fight back physically. No amount of self defense and dressing "properly" or avoiding volatile situations can help women prevent rape - only men can.
Advertisement
Most Commented on Slog
-
SL Letter of the Day: Pill The Homos! by Dan Savage
-
The AP Is Reporting That Whitney Houston Is Dead by Paul Constant
-
Slog Bible Study: Deuteronomy 21:10-14 by Goldy
-
Because Guns Make Us Safer by Goldy
-
SL Letter of the Day: Daddy Loves Who? by Dan Savage
-
Gregoire: "This is signed!" by Eli Sanders
-
Gay Kids Are Still Killing Themselves by Dan Savage
-
Whitney Is Dead, And So Is Hollywood by Kelly O
-
Planned Parenthood Exposed! by David Schmader
-
Stranger Tournament of Dunces, Match 3: Rep. Mark Hargrove vs. Rep. Norma Smith by Eli Sanders
RSS
Facebook
Twitter
Comments (53) RSS