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News & ArtsTuesday, November 17, 2009
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: More Advice for Couples Who Have Experienced a Miscarriage
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 2:09 PM
I wanted to thank you for your extraordinarily sensitive response on the "Savage Lovecast" to the caller who had lost two pregnancies with his wife. My husband and I married in 2004 and had two miscarriages in 2005 and one in 2006 (including two like the caller's second, which had to be surgically removed several days after finding out), and I can completely relate to the wife's fear of sex and terror over such a thing happening again. I'd like to urge that couple to ask their OB/GYN to refer them to a counselor specializing in pregnancy loss and all the body/mind issues that go along with it, and perhaps to seek out an RE (reproductive endocrinologist) who can help them optimize their chances for a healthy pregnancy when they're ready to explore that again.The loss of a wanted child is devastating and happens to people from all walks of life. I've made a list at in-their-honor.blogspot.com of famous people who've gone through it. Add to that list every "regular person" and it's mind-boggling. If that caller talks to people I'm certain he'll find people in his own family, office, circle of friends who have been there and lived to tell. I am happy to report that our daughter will be two years old next month—but because of all the trauma associated with my pregnancies I refuse to get pregnant again.
Thanks for your wonderful service. Love your books and column and especially your show; I wish I could live in Seattle, just to chance running into you at the grocery store or something.
E.
Thanks for sharing, E., and best wishes to your daughter on her birthday.
1
She's right. That was an incredibly sensitive and thoughtful response you gave. I was really, really impressed. Keep up the great work.
3
Robert Benchley wrote, "My wife and I had sex twice and it worked both times". They would be Peter and Nathaniel. My wife and I had sex twice with the intention of conceiving and it worked both times.
Sadly, we have several friends who have not been able to conceive and/or who have had unhappy outcomes of pregnancy. It is always so upsetting.
I'm happy that E. has a lovely daughter.
Sadly, we have several friends who have not been able to conceive and/or who have had unhappy outcomes of pregnancy. It is always so upsetting.
I'm happy that E. has a lovely daughter.
4
God bless them. There's always a light at the end of the tunnel. Seeking help from is always the best option for a healthy and happy future. Good on Dan.
5
What is the big deal?
Don't these women realize all the lost was a clump of cells? Do they get hysterical when they cut their fingernails or have a period or take a shit?
Don't these women realize all the lost was a clump of cells? Do they get hysterical when they cut their fingernails or have a period or take a shit?
6
My sister in law just miscarried her first pregnancy, like her mom did a few times before her. I didn't get much info, but it sounds like their idea of healthy is to take the nineteenth century view (children are cute, but disposable) and keep trying. We value babies too highly these days. If this country had even slightly higher infant mortality rates, I'd suggest not bothering to name them until they're 3 years old. Why get attached?
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7
@5 Sure, if a pregnancy is unwanted (not an accident, not a surprise, but actually unwanted), then yeah that's all that would be lost. But when a couple has been planning a pregnancy, or it's a welcomed surprised, miscarriages are not just a lump of cells. It's the loss of a potential life -- of their child, and it reshapes the future the parents had been planning for
8
@6: Why get attached? Because your basic biology commands it. After years of trying my husband and I finally hit the jackpot, and I'm six months along. Were something adverse to happen we'd be devastated. We don't feel entitled to have a baby, but we do dearly want a kid, and at age 35 I'm staring down the event horizon of my own fertility.
Mr. TVDinner and I see our lives as being immeasurably enhanced by the experience of parenthood, and should we lose that opportunity we would mourn its passing. That's normal.
It's also normal if you're younger than I am and haven't been trying as long to recognize that 20% of first time pregnancies end in miscarriages, usually because the fetus isn't viable, and philosophically march on. For women who have repeated miscarriages it's often because of a physical problem, and it's hard not to feel fundamentally flawed and hate your own body for it.
In short, it's a complicated, deeply intimate aspect of life that affects different people differently. I wouldn't judge others based on your sister's response. In fact, maybe you shouldn't judge at all if you don't have a fucking uterus.
Mr. TVDinner and I see our lives as being immeasurably enhanced by the experience of parenthood, and should we lose that opportunity we would mourn its passing. That's normal.
It's also normal if you're younger than I am and haven't been trying as long to recognize that 20% of first time pregnancies end in miscarriages, usually because the fetus isn't viable, and philosophically march on. For women who have repeated miscarriages it's often because of a physical problem, and it's hard not to feel fundamentally flawed and hate your own body for it.
In short, it's a complicated, deeply intimate aspect of life that affects different people differently. I wouldn't judge others based on your sister's response. In fact, maybe you shouldn't judge at all if you don't have a fucking uterus.
9
TV Dinner @8 - I just typed up a little paragraph of response, but decided not to send it, because -as phrased- it would put me a step closer to trolldom. I will hold my tongue like the kinda vaguely sensitive dude I am. I'll just put it simple - We value human life differently, so it's natural we don't see eye to eye on this. Good luck with your human-producing agenda there. "Immeasurable" is a lot of enhancement. Can't turn up your nose at that.
10
Miscarriages, not counting all the expectations, hopes, desires, and hormones flooding around at the time, are just God's way of making sure most of your babies are healthy.
The sad part is the mythology that all conceptions end in a healthy birth - most don't. Whether it's early (delayed period that's really bloody), typical (miscarriage), or late (spontaneous abortion, one of the reasons why any national health care MUST cover abortion), it's just God's way of making sure we're not all weird non-viable mutants.
Problem is, we take it personally. Or at least my brother's ex-wife (she later had very healthy and beautiful twin daughters) and sister (went IVF) did.
The sad part is the mythology that all conceptions end in a healthy birth - most don't. Whether it's early (delayed period that's really bloody), typical (miscarriage), or late (spontaneous abortion, one of the reasons why any national health care MUST cover abortion), it's just God's way of making sure we're not all weird non-viable mutants.
Problem is, we take it personally. Or at least my brother's ex-wife (she later had very healthy and beautiful twin daughters) and sister (went IVF) did.
11
@4 - no, no there isn't. There most certainly is NOT always a light at the end of this particular tunnel.
12
@E, you don't have to move to Seattle to run into Dan. He's a local celebrity, not the Pope. Just visit when he's hosting something like HUMP or the Valentine's Day party at Neumo's, and I'm sure he'd be happy to say hello and pose for a photo with you.
14
It's amazing how many miscarriages there are. 70% of all pregnancies in the US alone end in miscarriage. In fact, most times a woman is pregnant for the first time, it ends that way and she may never know she was pregnant.
15
Sensitive, yes. But instead of forsaking vaginal intercourse, why didn't you advise them to use contraception for a while? Surely the problem isn't penis-in-vagina sex but rather the possibility of conceiving? (and yes, I realise most contraception isn't 100% effective, but used properly it's pretty damn close.)
16
Dan, did you see The Word on The Colbert Report last night? I'm surprised you didn't share it here. It was awesome!
19
Dan, I have to agree with E. You did a very good thing on your podcast with that excellent response. Thank you from all of us out there who have been through it. I had two miscarriages about six years ago and I still remember the terror and the panic and the anguish. Luckily, I had a happy ending- my sweet little boy just turned 5.
20
Dan I love your response ... but there might need to be a little more. This might be one of those situations where they might have to ask themselves how much they really WANT a baby.
At the end of grad school, a lot really scary miscarriages happen to former grad students of science. It's one of those things that I guess really tests the parents to desire to have a family. Some of these miscarriages involved the inducing of labor of 5 month old deceased pregnancies.
The rumors came around, but sooner or later .... I guess they all had happy families.
I guess it's just the cost of having a family in modern society.
At the end of grad school, a lot really scary miscarriages happen to former grad students of science. It's one of those things that I guess really tests the parents to desire to have a family. Some of these miscarriages involved the inducing of labor of 5 month old deceased pregnancies.
The rumors came around, but sooner or later .... I guess they all had happy families.
I guess it's just the cost of having a family in modern society.
21
Just listened to the podcast this evening, and I agree that it was very good, especially this part.
And Loveschild, thanks for dropping by to plop down all the (typo-laden) necessary platitudes that we know you're good for. Now go away.
And Loveschild, thanks for dropping by to plop down all the (typo-laden) necessary platitudes that we know you're good for. Now go away.
22
#4, How would you feel if someone told you after your mother died, "No big deal, she was just a bag of cells"? I wonder if your loved ones feel that way about you.
#8 Agreed!
#10 God's way of ensuring people are healthy? No, I think not. Several friends of mine have lost babies and there was no physical explanation as to why, because the baby showed no problems at Autopsy. And if this is the case, then why are there so many babies born every day who have physical problems, and people who have diseases?
#20 "This experience tests people on how badly they really want a family?" Very insensitive comment. Many people never go on to have a healthy child, and they want a baby just as badly as most. Not all people eventually have happy families after loss.
#8 Agreed!
#10 God's way of ensuring people are healthy? No, I think not. Several friends of mine have lost babies and there was no physical explanation as to why, because the baby showed no problems at Autopsy. And if this is the case, then why are there so many babies born every day who have physical problems, and people who have diseases?
#20 "This experience tests people on how badly they really want a family?" Very insensitive comment. Many people never go on to have a healthy child, and they want a baby just as badly as most. Not all people eventually have happy families after loss.
23
@22 ...
When you are genetic material is most likely laden with defects, you have to be a bit more insensitive.
When you are genetic material is most likely laden with defects, you have to be a bit more insensitive.
24
My mother had 4 or 5 miscarriages after she remarried her (much younger) husband. She desperately wanted a child with him, but sadly, it wasn't meant to be. When you really want a child and miscarry after the stick turns blue on your pregnancy test, it isn't just a clump of cells you lost - it's a baby, and you mourn it almost as much as you would if it had been born and then passed away.
The difference is in how badly a woman wants to become a parent. It can be devastating to someone to have repeated miscarriages. To them, it's not a clump of cells, you insensitive jerk.
(PS - I'm pro-choice, and I realize that when you DON'T want a kid, it IS just a cluster of cells at that point)
The difference is in how badly a woman wants to become a parent. It can be devastating to someone to have repeated miscarriages. To them, it's not a clump of cells, you insensitive jerk.
(PS - I'm pro-choice, and I realize that when you DON'T want a kid, it IS just a cluster of cells at that point)
25
Oh, and when inserted correctly, Mirena (the 5 year IUD) is 99.9% effective against pregnancy. Perhaps people who are afraid of getting pregnant (not to mention the ones for whom other forms of birth control, such as the pill, don't work) should invest in that. I'm on my 2nd one, and have not had any problems for 6 years. For me (and the other gals I know who have one), it's wonderful!
26
I'm not saying it isn't painful and it doesn't suck!
Hell I know people who go through in vitro and surrogates to have children! They obviously really want them and are willing to put up billions of dollars.
Life isn't fair, and if you want somethings, it requires an element of pain!
And apparently going through 10 years of schooling, 6 of which is sniffing chemicals toxic for your gonads, and the odds of having miscarriages ... guess what.
No one told us this before we signed up for this job ... but now we are stuck with this reality.
Am I being insensitve ... not necessarily, but instead of pissing and moaning about life being unfair ... you have to ask yourself. How much do you want it? And if their experience of having a child is going to be an emotionally crippling waffle iron experiment ... so be it. But you as a want to parent have to come to terms with that and make that choice ... and if you can't hand the pain of it all ... maybe you shouldn't have children.
Hell I know people who go through in vitro and surrogates to have children! They obviously really want them and are willing to put up billions of dollars.
Life isn't fair, and if you want somethings, it requires an element of pain!
And apparently going through 10 years of schooling, 6 of which is sniffing chemicals toxic for your gonads, and the odds of having miscarriages ... guess what.
No one told us this before we signed up for this job ... but now we are stuck with this reality.
Am I being insensitve ... not necessarily, but instead of pissing and moaning about life being unfair ... you have to ask yourself. How much do you want it? And if their experience of having a child is going to be an emotionally crippling waffle iron experiment ... so be it. But you as a want to parent have to come to terms with that and make that choice ... and if you can't hand the pain of it all ... maybe you shouldn't have children.
27
sorry needed to proof ... but as you a parent, if you really want a child, you have to come to terms with the pain of it all. If you can't, then maybe you shouldn't have children.
I know the hormones of pregnancy don't make it any easier still ... but if those are the cards, then those are the cards.
Hell, maybe if she is so paranoid about miscarriages ... maybe she should try a surrogate? tens of thousands of dollars, but a piece of mind.
I know the hormones of pregnancy don't make it any easier still ... but if those are the cards, then those are the cards.
Hell, maybe if she is so paranoid about miscarriages ... maybe she should try a surrogate? tens of thousands of dollars, but a piece of mind.
28
Hell, in this economy ... a lot of women with crippling student loan debt are trying the whole surrogate mother thing!
Fuck you very much GW Bush!
Fuck you very much GW Bush!
29
Wow. A friend of mine sent me this link, and even though it's a month old, I'm glad I found it.
My parents were in *exactly* the same situation as the parents in this letter. My parents got married in '83, lost one pregnancy at the beginning of '84, and another at the end of '84. Turns out my mom had an incompetent cervix (I say "had" because she had a hysterectomy when I was eight). With pregnancy number 3, they were very, very cautious; my mother was on bedrest for three months. I was born in '85, big and healthy. My parents were thrilled, but they decided not to go through the potential trauma of another pregnancy - can't say I blame them.
Also - @ 11 - yes, fertility problems can be heartbreaking. But a lot of infertile parents go on to be amazing adoptive parents; they end up with kids they never would have had if they'd carried a biological kid to term.
My parents were in *exactly* the same situation as the parents in this letter. My parents got married in '83, lost one pregnancy at the beginning of '84, and another at the end of '84. Turns out my mom had an incompetent cervix (I say "had" because she had a hysterectomy when I was eight). With pregnancy number 3, they were very, very cautious; my mother was on bedrest for three months. I was born in '85, big and healthy. My parents were thrilled, but they decided not to go through the potential trauma of another pregnancy - can't say I blame them.
Also - @ 11 - yes, fertility problems can be heartbreaking. But a lot of infertile parents go on to be amazing adoptive parents; they end up with kids they never would have had if they'd carried a biological kid to term.
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