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News & ArtsFriday, November 20, 2009
Homo Becoming a Man
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 8:50 AM
The newly male Chaz Bono makes his debut on Good Morning America...
3
I sounded like an asshole in my last comment, but I really think it's brave and great that Chaz is doing this all out in the open. Transgendered people need someone like this out there, and it's fantastic that Chaz can do that.
5
Maybe a little assholey, but it's true, Carollani. Another hundred pounds and he can spend the rest of his life in his own recliner.
8
I wish him all the publicity he could ever want, and all the continued support his mom's handlers can lend.
15
Y'know I'm happy that Chaz is happy. I agree with 9, life is too short.
However, statements like "gender is between your ears" annoy me. It's just patently not true. While I agree completely there is obviously a mental component, and that gender is not binary, your body does play a role in your gender. If it didn't, there'd be no medications or operations involved.
So, yeah, congratulations Chaz, I'm glad you're happy, but let's stick to the truth. It's not JUST between your ears.
However, statements like "gender is between your ears" annoy me. It's just patently not true. While I agree completely there is obviously a mental component, and that gender is not binary, your body does play a role in your gender. If it didn't, there'd be no medications or operations involved.
So, yeah, congratulations Chaz, I'm glad you're happy, but let's stick to the truth. It's not JUST between your ears.
16
I remember watching a program about a program about a male transferring to female. He started off by getting a nose job & wearing dresses/make up. They interviewed his female co-workers and one of the points they made was that he was just acting out female stereotypes.
My wife is female - but she doesn't wear dresses or make up or the colour pink - she doesn't watch Oprah, read romance novels or cry at sad movies etc. I agree that 'gender' is in your head however I don't see the need for surgery to 'fix' anything. You shouldn't need pretend breasts & a pretend vagina so you can play act your preconceived ideas of what it means to be the opposite sex.
My wife is female - but she doesn't wear dresses or make up or the colour pink - she doesn't watch Oprah, read romance novels or cry at sad movies etc. I agree that 'gender' is in your head however I don't see the need for surgery to 'fix' anything. You shouldn't need pretend breasts & a pretend vagina so you can play act your preconceived ideas of what it means to be the opposite sex.
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@6: So then, would you prefer that he not make the change because, as you say, you can't fool mother nature? Yes, transgenderism is a mental mind bender, unfathomable at first even as you first begin educate yourself. But for those that feel like they got on the wrong bus in life, to have a chance at serenity and happiness makes this a sound and necessary medical procedure. It may be freaky to you, but it's their emotional survivability as human beings that is at stake here.
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@ 16, gender reassignment surgery was not developed because some guys want "pretend breasts & a pretend vagina so you can play act your preconceived ideas of what it means to be the opposite sex."
As to stereotypes, some people just trend toward them. I have a daughter who's approaching five years of age. My wife is like yours; "she doesn't wear dresses or make up or the colour pink - she doesn't watch Oprah, read romance novels or cry at sad movies etc." The same can be more or less said about her aunts and grandmothers. Nonetheless, our girl LOVES the color pink and seems to be becoming a real girly girl. She's not going for some stereotype we're foisting upon her; it's just her personality. Something to think about.
As to stereotypes, some people just trend toward them. I have a daughter who's approaching five years of age. My wife is like yours; "she doesn't wear dresses or make up or the colour pink - she doesn't watch Oprah, read romance novels or cry at sad movies etc." The same can be more or less said about her aunts and grandmothers. Nonetheless, our girl LOVES the color pink and seems to be becoming a real girly girl. She's not going for some stereotype we're foisting upon her; it's just her personality. Something to think about.
21
@15
Um, no. GENDER consists of the set of emotional/psychological/social/cultural constructs we use to define a person's male- or femaleness (which, by the way, can vary from culture to culture).
SEX is the physical manifestation of a person's male- or femaleness. The part you can see.
Hence, GENDER IS BETWEEN YOUR EARS. Chaz's point is that he has ALWAYS been gendered Male, and his outward physical sexuality did not match.
While your comment didn't sound mean-spirited, it did sound ignorant.
Um, no. GENDER consists of the set of emotional/psychological/social/cultural constructs we use to define a person's male- or femaleness (which, by the way, can vary from culture to culture).
SEX is the physical manifestation of a person's male- or femaleness. The part you can see.
Hence, GENDER IS BETWEEN YOUR EARS. Chaz's point is that he has ALWAYS been gendered Male, and his outward physical sexuality did not match.
While your comment didn't sound mean-spirited, it did sound ignorant.
24
@16
I'm pretty much with you on this one. I don't get the need to change all your equipment so that you can play out some gender stereotype you've got "between your ears." Just be yourself and act as you want, in the casing you came in. And I mean, Chaz's new "appendage" isn't likely to look like he'd want it to (those things are tiny I hear and plus, will he really even be able to see it with all that fat?) and someone else mentioned the man boobs thing. Is it really worth all that money, cutting into your flesh, hormonal changes to your body, etc just to say that you're "a man"?? That being said, I've never had some deep-seated need to change my equipment either so I have no idea what that's like.
Trying to be open-minded and all, people, but sorry, I just don't get it.
I'm pretty much with you on this one. I don't get the need to change all your equipment so that you can play out some gender stereotype you've got "between your ears." Just be yourself and act as you want, in the casing you came in. And I mean, Chaz's new "appendage" isn't likely to look like he'd want it to (those things are tiny I hear and plus, will he really even be able to see it with all that fat?) and someone else mentioned the man boobs thing. Is it really worth all that money, cutting into your flesh, hormonal changes to your body, etc just to say that you're "a man"?? That being said, I've never had some deep-seated need to change my equipment either so I have no idea what that's like.
Trying to be open-minded and all, people, but sorry, I just don't get it.
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@13 I meant considering Sonny's background and religious beliefs as a Roman Catholic and later as a Scientologist. He seems to be have been a very spiritual man unlike Cher. So it would've been interesting to see his take on this.
Having said that, even tho i'm not sure if what she is doing is correct, i do think that if someone like her feels so strongly and is attracted to the same sex she/he was born into then so long as they make it completely official and go ahead with the surgery (instead of just dressing as one) and behaves and acts accordingly to the sex they psychologically see themselves as, then you know, i think it's way better and more healthy than the way others who also deal with same sex attractions go about it. So in light of that i do think that Chaz is commendable and does seem to be genuinely happy.
Having said that, even tho i'm not sure if what she is doing is correct, i do think that if someone like her feels so strongly and is attracted to the same sex she/he was born into then so long as they make it completely official and go ahead with the surgery (instead of just dressing as one) and behaves and acts accordingly to the sex they psychologically see themselves as, then you know, i think it's way better and more healthy than the way others who also deal with same sex attractions go about it. So in light of that i do think that Chaz is commendable and does seem to be genuinely happy.
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@24 Don't get all hung up about genital surgery. Guys without dicks are hot.
Just google Buck Angel. Yum!
Just google Buck Angel. Yum!
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@21: Gender and sex are synonyms. I think trying to split hairs and make them different terms is pretty silly. There seems to be no purpose to splitting them up into separate terms (where "sex" is only the physical trappings of gender) other than allowing silly statements like "gender is JUST between your ears" to be true, given your new definition of the terms.
Trying to redefine terms in this way also makes it harder to educate people about things. If you're using words that they already know to mean one thing in a totally different way, that is a lot more prone to confusion than using other terms that express your meaning more clearly.
What's more clear to the average person:
"Chaz has identified as male his whole life."
or
"Chaz has gendered as male his whole life."
The first one makes it clear your meaning the second will result in people who have not heard your new definitions going "What?" or misinterpreting you, most of the time.
Likewise, IF this is what Chaz meant by "gender" in his statement, and you reword it as "sexual identity is between your ears", then it becomes a statement that is much clearer, and hard to take issue with.
Basically my original point was let's be clear in our meanings and be honest. I stand by that point.
And I was and am definitely not being mean spirited. Neither am I ignorant.
Trying to redefine terms in this way also makes it harder to educate people about things. If you're using words that they already know to mean one thing in a totally different way, that is a lot more prone to confusion than using other terms that express your meaning more clearly.
What's more clear to the average person:
"Chaz has identified as male his whole life."
or
"Chaz has gendered as male his whole life."
The first one makes it clear your meaning the second will result in people who have not heard your new definitions going "What?" or misinterpreting you, most of the time.
Likewise, IF this is what Chaz meant by "gender" in his statement, and you reword it as "sexual identity is between your ears", then it becomes a statement that is much clearer, and hard to take issue with.
Basically my original point was let's be clear in our meanings and be honest. I stand by that point.
And I was and am definitely not being mean spirited. Neither am I ignorant.
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@ 23 - Thanks, Bacon, you made my day.
Reminds of the (very) old joke, "Do you have Prince Albert in a can?" Of course, now there's a new meaning for "Prince Albert"...
Reminds of the (very) old joke, "Do you have Prince Albert in a can?" Of course, now there's a new meaning for "Prince Albert"...
29
Folks, gender's an articulation. It's a dialect. It's not an identity. It's not a state of being, despite the stock and trade answer that transgenders like to throw at you. Articulation changes with the setting. Locker room versus charity dinner, bedroom versus workplace.
Chaz? He's taking ownership and responsibility for his body. Good on him. He is playing out a media stereotype (the "before-and-after tranny"), and that's his choice. It reflects upon himself and no one else.
The male-to-female transgender mentioned in @16? Middle-aged men who come out as women disproportionately gravitate down that route. This does not reflect upon anyone else except themselves — though we, writ large, decide anyway to use them as a reflection for all trans people, screwing a lot of individual-minded trans folks pretty badly.
As for your last bit, @16, I don't wear pink, either. Or dresses. Or have long hair. Or keep spiky shoes. Or get all girly-girl. This does not make me somehow less of a woman, and those who know me would not argue otherwise. Plenty of women tossed that shit out once we took ownership over ourselves and ran with what worked instead. Those who embraced it are none the better or worse for finding their muse, too.
Chaz? He's taking ownership and responsibility for his body. Good on him. He is playing out a media stereotype (the "before-and-after tranny"), and that's his choice. It reflects upon himself and no one else.
The male-to-female transgender mentioned in @16? Middle-aged men who come out as women disproportionately gravitate down that route. This does not reflect upon anyone else except themselves — though we, writ large, decide anyway to use them as a reflection for all trans people, screwing a lot of individual-minded trans folks pretty badly.
As for your last bit, @16, I don't wear pink, either. Or dresses. Or have long hair. Or keep spiky shoes. Or get all girly-girl. This does not make me somehow less of a woman, and those who know me would not argue otherwise. Plenty of women tossed that shit out once we took ownership over ourselves and ran with what worked instead. Those who embraced it are none the better or worse for finding their muse, too.
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@25: While Cher had an initial problem with it, Sonny was open and welcoming. Which is interesting, considering his political affiliation and Cher's position as a gay icon.
Ironically enough, Bono's mother Cher, despite her flamboyance and shock-value, was most resistant to her daughter's sexual orientation. While dad Sonny, whom she told first, was extremely supportive and loving. Bono recalls her mother "going ballistic for a couple of days, but she came around quickly and we started to deal with it."
http://www.cnn.com/books/news/9810/14/bo…
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@25.. lc...(and i'm not picking a fight with you today..just curious ) how do you know that cher isn't very spiritual ? because she wasn't affiliated with an institutional church
( that we know of..) ?
...
and it was nice to hear to hear you say chaz's choice is commendable .
( that we know of..) ?
...
and it was nice to hear to hear you say chaz's choice is commendable .
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@27: You're not mean-spirited, Dave M. But I find you ignorant on this discussion. Don't sweat it: everyone's a little ignorant somewhere (good luck trying to explain calculus to me). And to "educate", as you put it, is a euphemism for controlling a discourse of authority.
Consequently, an ignorant teacher makes for ignorant students.
Consequently, an ignorant teacher makes for ignorant students.
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@ LC, Sonny was known to have been very accepting of gays and lesbians; Chastity reported that he came around a lot more quickly than Cher when she came out as a lesbian. OTOH he did vote against gay rights when such things came up in Congress, but it has been explained that he was toeing the GOP line when doing so.
So.... I'd think he would have been just fine because he was a loving parent. Loving parents accept their children who they are and would never be disappointed with the way they're born. You should take that to heart.
So.... I'd think he would have been just fine because he was a loving parent. Loving parents accept their children who they are and would never be disappointed with the way they're born. You should take that to heart.
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@32: "And to "educate", as you put it, is a euphemism for controlling a discourse of authority.
Consequently, an ignorant teacher makes for ignorant students."
That some seriously ridiculous babble right there.
Consequently, an ignorant teacher makes for ignorant students."
That some seriously ridiculous babble right there.
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@27 You sound like those annoying people who complain about not understanding what cisgender, genderqueer, etc mean and then refuse to educate themselves.
Who cares what's clear to the average person? Gender and sex are not synonyms. Just because most people are ignorant doesn't mean we should stop using the correct terminology to define exactly what we're talking about, it means people need to learn. We all have to at some point.
Who cares what's clear to the average person? Gender and sex are not synonyms. Just because most people are ignorant doesn't mean we should stop using the correct terminology to define exactly what we're talking about, it means people need to learn. We all have to at some point.
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#25? Seriously--better to be trans than be gay? Is that what you're saying?
Here's the deal for me. I'm fine being a woman. I like being a woman. I'm not a particularly "feminine" woman (no dresses, lots of sports, no makeup, short hair....), but I'm definitely a woman. I love women, and I'm into women sexually. It sounds like what you're saying is that I should chop off my boobs and take testosterone and do whatever other reassignment surgery is available, identify as a man and then it's ok for me to love women? Am I understanding your logic right?
Here's the deal for me. I'm fine being a woman. I like being a woman. I'm not a particularly "feminine" woman (no dresses, lots of sports, no makeup, short hair....), but I'm definitely a woman. I love women, and I'm into women sexually. It sounds like what you're saying is that I should chop off my boobs and take testosterone and do whatever other reassignment surgery is available, identify as a man and then it's ok for me to love women? Am I understanding your logic right?
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Good for Chaz, but if your life's dream is to look like Rush Limbaugh's kid rather than Cher's you've got bigger problems than your plumbing.
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@33 Maybe he knew that instead of wanting to pretend and cause confusion Chas was an honest person who wanted to make things legit and go thru a full sex reassignment. To often gay themes are lumped with honest psychological issues like hers and i think that he knew it, case in example, the vote you cited. That's what some people don't get, folks can see when people are being honest and seeking to deal in a correct fashion with their psychological disorders instead of those that want acceptance and redefine society at large without addressing their problem and taking the appropriate psychological and medical actions like Chas has. I think that's why even someone like Cher had a problem with the lesbian thing but maybe had Chas been honest with her from the start, while still something difficult to deal with, just seeing those images of her as a little girl makes me think how difficult it has to be for her, perhaps she would've had a more positive path from the beginning. It all boils down to honesty and acting in a legal way in this world that we live in.
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Before reading what my fellow sloggers have to say, I must admit being a man suits Chaz very well. Such a baby face! He can be my wing man anyday.
Now let's read what's in the other 38 comments.
Now let's read what's in the other 38 comments.
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@40: And yet you won't get help for your extreme psychological disorders. DSM-IV ranks several delusions as high-risk disorders, most of them related to the type of "god's mandate" psychosis you frequently display.
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@LC.... Wow. My mind boggles a bit. People who are gay and not trans aren't being "dishonest" about their "problems" -- they're being honest about who they love. Not everyone who loves someone of their same gender wants to BE another gender! Similarly, there is a minority within a minority of trans individuals who are trans AND gay -- that is, bio women who identify as men and love men, or bio men who identify as women and love women. How do you feel about their surgeries?
I mean, I guess it's a positive thing that you support the trans community with whatever weird, convoluted logic you're using, but I find it rather shocking. How can you justify it religiously/morally when you are so adamantly against homosexuality? I'm confused.
I mean, I guess it's a positive thing that you support the trans community with whatever weird, convoluted logic you're using, but I find it rather shocking. How can you justify it religiously/morally when you are so adamantly against homosexuality? I'm confused.
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This will blow Loveschild's mind: My Brother-In-Law is trans, female to male, surgery and everything and is bi-sexual!
The mind boggles...
The mind boggles...
46
Just outstanding (in a bad way) to read so much ignorance in the comments on this, the Transgender Day of Remembrance, a day when we're commemorating all the people who have been murdered for not fitting other people's rigid stereotypes of how everyone is supposed to look, act, behave and believe regarding their 23rd set of chromosomes.
Please educate yourself, people! And, if you can't find the humanity in your own heart to accept that not every loving, caring, law-abiding person is exactly like you, and accept them for who they are, then please, please stfu.
Personal note to a certain faux-Christian with verbal diarrhea: if you were a REAL follower of Christ, you would be willing to sacrifice your own life to save a transgender person from an angry mob, not join the mob, stupid!
Please educate yourself, people! And, if you can't find the humanity in your own heart to accept that not every loving, caring, law-abiding person is exactly like you, and accept them for who they are, then please, please stfu.
Personal note to a certain faux-Christian with verbal diarrhea: if you were a REAL follower of Christ, you would be willing to sacrifice your own life to save a transgender person from an angry mob, not join the mob, stupid!
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@24: "I just don't get it."
Big surprise there - you don't "get" most things. Let me be explicit: you're a dimwit and not getting things is your natural condition. Got it?
Big surprise there - you don't "get" most things. Let me be explicit: you're a dimwit and not getting things is your natural condition. Got it?
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@43: singing cynic, could you kindly just do away with "bio women" and "bio men"? While it might not be a ton, there's still a mess of transsexual people who took ownership over their bodies before they reached any "bio-womanhood" or "bio-manhood". These may have been a polite step up from "born a woman/man/sunflower", but that's like taking a step up from saying "nigger" by saying "negro" before stepping up from that to say "black" — when it's just best to say "individual."
Just, if you don't mind, say cissexual when someone isn't transsexual. Or if you must, cisgender for someone who isn't transgender. It'd go a long way to fostering good will.
Just, if you don't mind, say cissexual when someone isn't transsexual. Or if you must, cisgender for someone who isn't transgender. It'd go a long way to fostering good will.
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@26 Not at all attracted to Buck Angel, but I must wholeheartedly agree. This lady LOVES a transman!!
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Chaz Bono is not newly male, or male, in any way, at all. She is a horrifically surgically disfigured woman. Like Joan Rivers.
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@48, too true! It's a bad sign when the characters in a Robert Zemeckis movie look more human than Cher...
53
interesting that transgender love trumps the fat insults in the world of slog. god help Chaz if he ever becomes a mormon, then the fat jokes will fly.
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@49 -- not trying to be insensitive AT ALL. i thought that was the accepted way to refer to the gender someone was assigned at birth.
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If gender is between your ears, then why do you need to have surgery and take hormones? Why not learn to live with the body you have and bend gender in other less invasive ways? And why not learn as a society to accept girly boys and manly women? And how much of this is pushing from the medical and psychological community?
I don't think Ill ever understand the desire for trans. people to get surgery. Still, their body, their lives. But I still say there are ethical issues that need to be addressed with regards to the doctors who perform these surgeries. A doctor wouldn't amputate a perfectly healthy arm just because someone feels his arm shouldn't be there.
I don't think Ill ever understand the desire for trans. people to get surgery. Still, their body, their lives. But I still say there are ethical issues that need to be addressed with regards to the doctors who perform these surgeries. A doctor wouldn't amputate a perfectly healthy arm just because someone feels his arm shouldn't be there.
57
Tell you what, Brandon:
Let's get you all jacked up on anti-androgen and estrogen every single day for, well, as long as we so please. We don't give a shit whether you want it or not: we'll watch you swallow the meds each and every time. We'll watch how you deal daily with your life, your interpersonal life, your sex life. When we've decided whether you've had enough, then maybe we'll decide to stop. Maybe.
Despite your droll comment to which I can otherwise find little logic and which lacks a live-and-let-live world view, I'm actually right there with you on one bit: I don't buy the "gender between the ears" crap, either. I do, however, know the way my mind and body work — you dare tell me otherwise? — and I do not need to be backhanded with an "it's your body, but we gotta do something about those you turn to who help you manage your body" zinger. Hey! What a great idea! Let's put pressure on care providers and thumb them out so that these trans people can't do anything to themselves anymore!
That's real humanitarian of you.
I see the very same trans people you do who go and rush into fucking with their bodies radically, expensively, and quickly well into their adult lives using money they earned well into their career. They seek professional enablers in the form of "gender clinics". And guess what? I know they're nearly always making stupid, narcissistic, clownish mistakes, but mistakes they've gotta own as theirs. I also see trans people who soberly reasoned this shit out and have allowed an arc of time to level things out. This includes a mess of people who want this distraction out of their way by the time they hit their adulthood and want to get on with their life. They tend not to get much notice from people like you. Thus, it's out of bounds for you or anyone to toss these populations into the same cannibalistic stew pot.
If you don't think you'll ever understand but do feel it's totally necessary to regulate (as your subtext was read) the ethics of providers over something which has no impact on your own life, then it's time for you to chug a jug of stfu and steer your energies some place where it is of your personal, immediate concern.
This is definitely not a matter you need to worry about.
More...
Let's get you all jacked up on anti-androgen and estrogen every single day for, well, as long as we so please. We don't give a shit whether you want it or not: we'll watch you swallow the meds each and every time. We'll watch how you deal daily with your life, your interpersonal life, your sex life. When we've decided whether you've had enough, then maybe we'll decide to stop. Maybe.
Despite your droll comment to which I can otherwise find little logic and which lacks a live-and-let-live world view, I'm actually right there with you on one bit: I don't buy the "gender between the ears" crap, either. I do, however, know the way my mind and body work — you dare tell me otherwise? — and I do not need to be backhanded with an "it's your body, but we gotta do something about those you turn to who help you manage your body" zinger. Hey! What a great idea! Let's put pressure on care providers and thumb them out so that these trans people can't do anything to themselves anymore!
That's real humanitarian of you.
I see the very same trans people you do who go and rush into fucking with their bodies radically, expensively, and quickly well into their adult lives using money they earned well into their career. They seek professional enablers in the form of "gender clinics". And guess what? I know they're nearly always making stupid, narcissistic, clownish mistakes, but mistakes they've gotta own as theirs. I also see trans people who soberly reasoned this shit out and have allowed an arc of time to level things out. This includes a mess of people who want this distraction out of their way by the time they hit their adulthood and want to get on with their life. They tend not to get much notice from people like you. Thus, it's out of bounds for you or anyone to toss these populations into the same cannibalistic stew pot.
If you don't think you'll ever understand but do feel it's totally necessary to regulate (as your subtext was read) the ethics of providers over something which has no impact on your own life, then it's time for you to chug a jug of stfu and steer your energies some place where it is of your personal, immediate concern.
This is definitely not a matter you need to worry about.
58
I read a really interesting book a while back about the brain, and one of the chapters discussed brain gender and how it can differ from body gender. It was fascinating, but of course I can't remember the title or author at the moment. I'll do some research and come up with it.
59
At the end of the day, JunieGirl, it's not important. Not for transsexual people it isn't. If it helps you wrap your cissexual mind around it, then more power to you. But no one has asked for you to do research for us.
(The book, by the way, is Whipping Girl by Julia Serano. Serano's personal life experience is suspect, but much of what was written there on the area you mentioned was pretty sound and is probably one of the most cogent explanations I've heard anyone articulate. Even a cynic could be moved.)
(The book, by the way, is Whipping Girl by Julia Serano. Serano's personal life experience is suspect, but much of what was written there on the area you mentioned was pretty sound and is probably one of the most cogent explanations I've heard anyone articulate. Even a cynic could be moved.)
60
@57
Caaaaalm down. Take a few deep breaths. Good.
I was actually initially interested to read your response to Brandon's quite logical questions because I have the very same ones. I think many people do. Unfortunately, you didn't answer them. Instead, you just spewed out hate at him in an emotional rambling rant. That's really too bad because I want to understand the trans thing better, but you're really not defending it or explaining well.
Is someone out there able to answer Brandon's questions without freaking out?
Caaaaalm down. Take a few deep breaths. Good.
I was actually initially interested to read your response to Brandon's quite logical questions because I have the very same ones. I think many people do. Unfortunately, you didn't answer them. Instead, you just spewed out hate at him in an emotional rambling rant. That's really too bad because I want to understand the trans thing better, but you're really not defending it or explaining well.
Is someone out there able to answer Brandon's questions without freaking out?
61
@27 THANK YOU! i'm glad that someone commented on that. it was driving me nuts.
GENDER is not "what's between your ears" if you buy that, you're an idiot. GENDER is "XY" or "XX," same as a persons SEX. what gender you IDENTIFY with is the stuff in your head as mentioned by @21. stop trying to stick different meaning to the words to make your argument sound better, it just shows that you'd rather blur lines than speak plainly. more room to spout off bullshit. the girl identified as a dude, so she CHANGED GENDERS. she thought, "hey! being a guy would suit me so much better!"
and, hey, whatever these gentlemen/ladies want to do with themselves is cool. i don't get it myself and sometimes i feel like it might be for the wrong reasons. for instance: i have a friend who's in the middle of her "transition" (taking the testosterone and whatnot), and it's very apparent that (s)he's doing it for a girl. my take on it is that the girl isn't comfortable dealing with being a complete lesbian, so she is encouraging my friend to go through this. gotta say... it bothers me a little.
GENDER is not "what's between your ears" if you buy that, you're an idiot. GENDER is "XY" or "XX," same as a persons SEX. what gender you IDENTIFY with is the stuff in your head as mentioned by @21. stop trying to stick different meaning to the words to make your argument sound better, it just shows that you'd rather blur lines than speak plainly. more room to spout off bullshit. the girl identified as a dude, so she CHANGED GENDERS. she thought, "hey! being a guy would suit me so much better!"
and, hey, whatever these gentlemen/ladies want to do with themselves is cool. i don't get it myself and sometimes i feel like it might be for the wrong reasons. for instance: i have a friend who's in the middle of her "transition" (taking the testosterone and whatnot), and it's very apparent that (s)he's doing it for a girl. my take on it is that the girl isn't comfortable dealing with being a complete lesbian, so she is encouraging my friend to go through this. gotta say... it bothers me a little.
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@35: "Gender and sex are not synonyms. Just because most people are ignorant doesn't mean we should stop using the correct terminology to define exactly what we're talking about"
Yes, they are synonyms, and calling people who question your wording ignorant really doesn't help.
Yes, they are synonyms, and calling people who question your wording ignorant really doesn't help.
63
@60: OK Confluence, I'll "calm down". But only enough to explain the following to you. If it's too long, then don't read. But don't come back later and say I didn't bother.
The questions Brandon asked, that you wanted to ask, and the questions you believe others also have are questions that have been asked over and over again ad nauseam by untold people before you. A few things:
I do answer. I'm sure others answer, too. But here lies the rub: answering the same questions over and over again to different people over time reveals that a) in an age when finding information is easier than ever by using google, people are becoming lazier; b) it leads to cissexual people (like you and Brandon) who ask questions that could be looked up to instead wait to hear it from an authoritative, real person on the very same intarnets that information can be found if bothered with doing a little legwork; and c) by having cissexual people constantly ask the same questions over and over again, it sets up a relationship where transsexual people become obligated to answer these questions, to become obligatory teachers to the oblivious and the lazy.
This is why interviews of trans people are so annoying. An interviewer throws them into the role of the educator in hope that it will somehow make a difference (to what I don't know, perhaps a bigger audience share?), yet instead end up being the template for tossing out the same script over and over again (i.e., "Interviewee looks really different now! Interviewee can tell us what we don't understand! Interviewee has to do it all over again for the next interview! We can save this template and dust it off if/when we interview another one of these people in the future! We see no human dimension to this interviewee beyond the trans stuff, so let's just ignore who they are and what interests them!") You could see this play out in the Chaz Bono interview.
In the time since I came out over half my life ago, the questions you or Brandon throw out there have been answered so often that it's clear that some cissexual people would prefer to just put transsexual people on the spot to see them baking under the heat of scrutiny rather than accept that there are things they either cannot understand, will not understand, or are too lazy to find out on their own. It deprives me of my humanity a little more when this situation plays out. This is why I don't tell people any longer and why most people I deal with on a daily basis simply don't know that I'm not cissexual like they are. It makes for an easier way to get through the day without distraction.
You and Brandon don't have novel questions, but really basic, simple questions that could be understood in a fairly straightforward manner if one is bothered to find out by doing a little digging around. Role play a little: if you thought you might be trans but weren't sure, what search queries might you try to google? Let that be your guide.
To save on going through the obligatory teacher schtick again, I took a different, creative approach to Brandon's question. I actually found it a little amusing. I'm sorry the subtlety was missed.
So I'll politely explain to you: by forcing a cissexual person's endocrine system onto a completely different chemistry, you'll find that it doesn't really hurt the body at all, though it may interrupt a few things taken for granted. For the example with Brandon, forcing him on a different endocrine regimen (i.e., people holding him down till he takes the meds) signifies having an endocrine system that does not play nice with your brain chemistry and being able to do nothing about it until you seriously intervene in a climate where no one really supports your request — not without a lot of searching, dead ends, and dealing with countless "professionals" who speak to you like a child. And good luck with that, as there are very, very few people who will listen to you when you say "Hi, this isn't working for me and it never has. Let's try this instead."
In short, you or Brandon would learn so, so much more from being tossed into an altered situation and seeing how your endocrine system's chemistry does not play nice with your brain. Words fail to do it justice. Most of your answers could be had right there and we could all get on with life.
Changing one's endocrine chemistry actually does well for some people. The eight dollar question — why? — isn't something anybody really knows, and at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter. The alternative for someone like me — leaving the body "be" the way "god intended" — feels the very same as forcing someone like you or Brandon to be subject to a totally different chemistry.
I got tetchy with Brandon when he hinted at putting health care providers on the spot (who actually listen to their patients) under the rubric of "ethics". That's a thinly-veiled threat from where I am. There's nothing more I detest than to hear these kinds of threats, because clearly some lay cissexual people out there are so bothered by the abstract idea of my existence that they'd support a "soft" way of obstructing the care I depend on to routinely manage my body on my terms. It's not cool.
So Confluence, did this help you at all?
More...
The questions Brandon asked, that you wanted to ask, and the questions you believe others also have are questions that have been asked over and over again ad nauseam by untold people before you. A few things:
I do answer. I'm sure others answer, too. But here lies the rub: answering the same questions over and over again to different people over time reveals that a) in an age when finding information is easier than ever by using google, people are becoming lazier; b) it leads to cissexual people (like you and Brandon) who ask questions that could be looked up to instead wait to hear it from an authoritative, real person on the very same intarnets that information can be found if bothered with doing a little legwork; and c) by having cissexual people constantly ask the same questions over and over again, it sets up a relationship where transsexual people become obligated to answer these questions, to become obligatory teachers to the oblivious and the lazy.
This is why interviews of trans people are so annoying. An interviewer throws them into the role of the educator in hope that it will somehow make a difference (to what I don't know, perhaps a bigger audience share?), yet instead end up being the template for tossing out the same script over and over again (i.e., "Interviewee looks really different now! Interviewee can tell us what we don't understand! Interviewee has to do it all over again for the next interview! We can save this template and dust it off if/when we interview another one of these people in the future! We see no human dimension to this interviewee beyond the trans stuff, so let's just ignore who they are and what interests them!") You could see this play out in the Chaz Bono interview.
In the time since I came out over half my life ago, the questions you or Brandon throw out there have been answered so often that it's clear that some cissexual people would prefer to just put transsexual people on the spot to see them baking under the heat of scrutiny rather than accept that there are things they either cannot understand, will not understand, or are too lazy to find out on their own. It deprives me of my humanity a little more when this situation plays out. This is why I don't tell people any longer and why most people I deal with on a daily basis simply don't know that I'm not cissexual like they are. It makes for an easier way to get through the day without distraction.
You and Brandon don't have novel questions, but really basic, simple questions that could be understood in a fairly straightforward manner if one is bothered to find out by doing a little digging around. Role play a little: if you thought you might be trans but weren't sure, what search queries might you try to google? Let that be your guide.
To save on going through the obligatory teacher schtick again, I took a different, creative approach to Brandon's question. I actually found it a little amusing. I'm sorry the subtlety was missed.
So I'll politely explain to you: by forcing a cissexual person's endocrine system onto a completely different chemistry, you'll find that it doesn't really hurt the body at all, though it may interrupt a few things taken for granted. For the example with Brandon, forcing him on a different endocrine regimen (i.e., people holding him down till he takes the meds) signifies having an endocrine system that does not play nice with your brain chemistry and being able to do nothing about it until you seriously intervene in a climate where no one really supports your request — not without a lot of searching, dead ends, and dealing with countless "professionals" who speak to you like a child. And good luck with that, as there are very, very few people who will listen to you when you say "Hi, this isn't working for me and it never has. Let's try this instead."
In short, you or Brandon would learn so, so much more from being tossed into an altered situation and seeing how your endocrine system's chemistry does not play nice with your brain. Words fail to do it justice. Most of your answers could be had right there and we could all get on with life.
Changing one's endocrine chemistry actually does well for some people. The eight dollar question — why? — isn't something anybody really knows, and at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter. The alternative for someone like me — leaving the body "be" the way "god intended" — feels the very same as forcing someone like you or Brandon to be subject to a totally different chemistry.
I got tetchy with Brandon when he hinted at putting health care providers on the spot (who actually listen to their patients) under the rubric of "ethics". That's a thinly-veiled threat from where I am. There's nothing more I detest than to hear these kinds of threats, because clearly some lay cissexual people out there are so bothered by the abstract idea of my existence that they'd support a "soft" way of obstructing the care I depend on to routinely manage my body on my terms. It's not cool.
So Confluence, did this help you at all?
64
Confluence and Brandon:
Some sites for you....
http://questioningtransphobia.wordpress.…
http://www.myhusbandbetty.com/
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/c…
http://www.jenniferboylan.net/
I recommend reading and not commenting for some time - educate yourself.
Some sites for you....
http://questioningtransphobia.wordpress.…
http://www.myhusbandbetty.com/
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/c…
http://www.jenniferboylan.net/
I recommend reading and not commenting for some time - educate yourself.
65
Dear lord, @64, Jennifer "Jenny Boy" Boylan? "My husband Betty"? That's really great for fostering the continuing myth that trans women are basically men who come out well into adulthood after career, heterosexual marriage to a woman, and/or siring kids — rather than even entertaining the possibility that teenagers come out long before adulthood begins. That myth precludes the possibility that there could be any other life experience.
If we're taking the link route, then here. Go with this:
http://www.juliaserano.com/whippinggirl.…
http://www.juliaserano.com/TSetiology.ht…
http://www.tsroadmap.com/index.html
These will keep you busy for some time.
If we're taking the link route, then here. Go with this:
http://www.juliaserano.com/whippinggirl.…
http://www.juliaserano.com/TSetiology.ht…
http://www.tsroadmap.com/index.html
These will keep you busy for some time.
66
after ranting about the wonders of the great world wide web, it takes one entire post for Telsa to dismiss some links provided by another. i hope the links provided by Telsa are clearer than her own chosen words. Cisexual endocrine systems blahdiddy blah blah. clearly "cisexual" is a political invention. the use, and continued, repeated use ad nauseum, has a purpose and it is not to educate or elucidate.
like us all, when Telsa types, she can communicate many things. if Telsa chooses not to educate, who is anyone to complain? but the questions asked still remain on the table, since an honest, clear, explanation was not provided.
ALL that comes across from Telsa is anger and annoyance. can your health care provider manage that? i hope so for your own sake.
like us all, when Telsa types, she can communicate many things. if Telsa chooses not to educate, who is anyone to complain? but the questions asked still remain on the table, since an honest, clear, explanation was not provided.
ALL that comes across from Telsa is anger and annoyance. can your health care provider manage that? i hope so for your own sake.
67
i dunno, she just sounds like she's sorta angry from being dismissed a lot for having the body/life she has. i'm not sure how i'd feel if i was always put on the spot like the way she says. probsbly not too thrilled!
68
don't think anyone was dismissing any other person's life, just asked a few questions in an attempt to understand it. if Telsa doesn't wish to be a spokesperson, Telsa does not need to speak. but by replying, Telsa seems to want it both ways.
i don't feel any need to be a spokesperson for my life nor do i feel as though i should constantly educate every jackass. but there is a difference between a jackass and someone who is seeking to understand. i put Brandon in the latter category, not the former. Brandon seemed to be a convenient (undeserving) target for Telsa's general anger.
i don't feel any need to be a spokesperson for my life nor do i feel as though i should constantly educate every jackass. but there is a difference between a jackass and someone who is seeking to understand. i put Brandon in the latter category, not the former. Brandon seemed to be a convenient (undeserving) target for Telsa's general anger.
69
"Masculine" is not the same as "male," "feminine" is not the same as "female."
"Gender" and "sex" are not exact synonyms. They are often used interchangeably, because the distinction often doesn't make a difference. In this context it matters, and the distinction is worth preserving.
"Gender" and "sex" are not exact synonyms. They are often used interchangeably, because the distinction often doesn't make a difference. In this context it matters, and the distinction is worth preserving.
71
For me, I found a comment made by a character in Tales of the City to be helpful in understanding transgender folk.
When asked about her gender reassignment surgery, the character Mrs Madrigal said something like, "I enjoy the friendship of women."
My friendship with men is indeed different than with my women friends, so it helped me get it in a way that going to a transgender conference did not.
When asked about her gender reassignment surgery, the character Mrs Madrigal said something like, "I enjoy the friendship of women."
My friendship with men is indeed different than with my women friends, so it helped me get it in a way that going to a transgender conference did not.
72
@56:
how you see yourself in the world and how others perceive you are the components of gender. if you feel / identify a gender other than the one assigned to you at birth two things can happen:
1. It can be emotionally and at times physically uncomfortable for the individual to feel one thing and see another.
2. Very emotionally uncomfortable to never be accepted you for who you are because your body doesn't match you brain.
how you see yourself in the world and how others perceive you are the components of gender. if you feel / identify a gender other than the one assigned to you at birth two things can happen:
1. It can be emotionally and at times physically uncomfortable for the individual to feel one thing and see another.
2. Very emotionally uncomfortable to never be accepted you for who you are because your body doesn't match you brain.
73
@70 -
totally fair. I'd love for no one to give a crap about my transition either.
. . . but ya' know that's why they call it "privilege."
It's hard to give a crap about it being a windy day. . . when the wind is at your back.
totally fair. I'd love for no one to give a crap about my transition either.
. . . but ya' know that's why they call it "privilege."
It's hard to give a crap about it being a windy day. . . when the wind is at your back.
74
@61:
ummm. "XX" and "XY?" heh. heh. okay smart ass. . . what do you do about the 12 other chromosomal combinations we now know about?
ummm. "XX" and "XY?" heh. heh. okay smart ass. . . what do you do about the 12 other chromosomal combinations we now know about?
75
@65
WTF. "Myth?" Get real.
Sorry if it's hard to get your mind around transition until you're an adult and found that a wife a kids that you always wanted didn't resolve who you are. . . and time didn't dissolve the internal gender conflict.
quit the prickly bullshit wrapped into trans identity and politics.
WTF. "Myth?" Get real.
Sorry if it's hard to get your mind around transition until you're an adult and found that a wife a kids that you always wanted didn't resolve who you are. . . and time didn't dissolve the internal gender conflict.
quit the prickly bullshit wrapped into trans identity and politics.
76
@56:
. . . the "desire" for trans? fuck, whatever.
"Less invasive ways?" Trans peeps do that all the time. Not everyone transitions. "Tranasgender" is an umbrella term that covers anyone that doesn't conform to the cultural rules of gender.
The media often equates transgender with people who transition, when the majority of trans peeps - gender queers, cross dressers, middle pathers, etc. never live 24 / 7 from now until forever in a gender other than the one assigned to them. You only see those who transition on da TeeVee. . . and usually in a sensational way.
That's why it's cool to have a person like Chaz Bono. . . perhaps the subject can be made visible in a non sensational manner.
. . . the "desire" for trans? fuck, whatever.
"Less invasive ways?" Trans peeps do that all the time. Not everyone transitions. "Tranasgender" is an umbrella term that covers anyone that doesn't conform to the cultural rules of gender.
The media often equates transgender with people who transition, when the majority of trans peeps - gender queers, cross dressers, middle pathers, etc. never live 24 / 7 from now until forever in a gender other than the one assigned to them. You only see those who transition on da TeeVee. . . and usually in a sensational way.
That's why it's cool to have a person like Chaz Bono. . . perhaps the subject can be made visible in a non sensational manner.
77
Fuck. . . having others debate your existence is tiring.
Wanna' understand teh trans? Go ask a trans person. . . they'll tell you.
Wanna' understand teh trans? Go ask a trans person. . . they'll tell you.
78
@74... really?
unless you yourself are a pioneer in the field of genetic research and know something the rest of the world doesn't, there are STILL only TWO chromosomes that determine the gender/sex of a fetus. extra X's or Y's are an abnormality. the topic of this forum is a WOMAN who became a MAN. not a woman who has extra X's or Y's. some abnormalities do happen, for sure, but i'm pretty sure you still need those basic TWO to get anything going. Gender is STILL X's and Y's, sorry to break it to you.
unless you yourself are a pioneer in the field of genetic research and know something the rest of the world doesn't, there are STILL only TWO chromosomes that determine the gender/sex of a fetus. extra X's or Y's are an abnormality. the topic of this forum is a WOMAN who became a MAN. not a woman who has extra X's or Y's. some abnormalities do happen, for sure, but i'm pretty sure you still need those basic TWO to get anything going. Gender is STILL X's and Y's, sorry to break it to you.
79
@78
Jeebus - For the 8 millionth-upteenth-fucktard-time:
1. Gender and "sex" are not the same things.
2. Chromosomes do not determine your "gender."
3. Believing gender is based on sex where sex is either a simple 'XY' or 'XX' is the same as believing the world is flat and Obama was born in the "country of" Hawaii.
4. Others determining transgender people need biological proof for their existence is irrelevant.
Fuck this is getting old.
Jeebus - For the 8 millionth-upteenth-fucktard-time:
1. Gender and "sex" are not the same things.
2. Chromosomes do not determine your "gender."
3. Believing gender is based on sex where sex is either a simple 'XY' or 'XX' is the same as believing the world is flat and Obama was born in the "country of" Hawaii.
4. Others determining transgender people need biological proof for their existence is irrelevant.
Fuck this is getting old.
80
ok.
gen·der (jndr)
n.
1. Grammar
a. A grammatical category used in the classification of nouns, pronouns, adjectives, and, in some languages, verbs that may be arbitrary or based on characteristics such as sex or animacy and that determines agreement with or selection of modifiers, referents, or grammatical forms.
b. One category of such a set.
c. The classification of a word or grammatical form in such a category.
d. The distinguishing form or forms used.
2. Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture.
3.
a. The condition of being female or male; sex.
b. Females or males considered as a group: expressions used by one gender.
tr.v. gen·dered, gen·der·ing, gen·ders
To engender.
From: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
after doing a pretty thorough perusing of definitions, i will now admit that i am partially incorrect.
how about not calling people "fucktard" when they are NOT completely wrong though? (I draw your attention to meaning #3a) you can probably understand why LOTS of people think that gender and sex are the same. you don't have to be a dick about it. accept your partial win and stop being just as stubbornly blind in your definition as the people you call out.
i did.
gen·der (jndr)
n.
1. Grammar
a. A grammatical category used in the classification of nouns, pronouns, adjectives, and, in some languages, verbs that may be arbitrary or based on characteristics such as sex or animacy and that determines agreement with or selection of modifiers, referents, or grammatical forms.
b. One category of such a set.
c. The classification of a word or grammatical form in such a category.
d. The distinguishing form or forms used.
2. Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture.
3.
a. The condition of being female or male; sex.
b. Females or males considered as a group: expressions used by one gender.
tr.v. gen·dered, gen·der·ing, gen·ders
To engender.
From: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
after doing a pretty thorough perusing of definitions, i will now admit that i am partially incorrect.
how about not calling people "fucktard" when they are NOT completely wrong though? (I draw your attention to meaning #3a) you can probably understand why LOTS of people think that gender and sex are the same. you don't have to be a dick about it. accept your partial win and stop being just as stubbornly blind in your definition as the people you call out.
i did.
81
@80:
Jeebus. . . you expect me to read all of that?
blah. . . blah. . . blah.
"partial win?" Um. . . I'm trans. I have a life I gotta' live. Like. . . everyday. Outside, upfront and in public.
It's not about a "win" on the interwebs.
Jeebus. . . you expect me to read all of that?
blah. . . blah. . . blah.
"partial win?" Um. . . I'm trans. I have a life I gotta' live. Like. . . everyday. Outside, upfront and in public.
It's not about a "win" on the interwebs.
82
@75: Yeah, trans i am, a myth.
For each and every time the media narrative of a trans person hits the world, tell me how often this narrative spells out anything other than that of the middle-aged, white, male-to-female, man-in-a-dress who got midway into their career (too often white collar, but there's some blue collar examples in there — just never pink collar) and threw a wrench at their wives, children, and bosses. Take all the time you need. (I'll save you some work: it's pretty rare. Like the Chaz news.)
Once you're done with that exercise, you come on back here and whine about how there's still no myth. Meanwhile, as someone who ordinarily has to sit on hands and watch the "we h9 all trans" folks explain how they have problems with men in dresses and the self-mutilation of dads who still have to put food in the mouths of children they sired — and said mythic trans people on the other side of the spat crying "oh noes transphobia! halp!" — it's been nice to challenge the myth.
The part chafing you most, trans i am? It's harder for someone like me (and those of us with experiences like mine) to be heard and seen by other people than it is to be entirely invisible, transparent, and unknown to the daily world. All that most people see and hear (in the media, on the sidewalk, etc.) are those visible trannies who validate and perpetuate the above myth. It must suck for you to realize that some trans people just don't have your back covered.
Many of us don't need your "transgender umbrella" as a precondition to fit in or just live out our lives — not that we ever had a say in the "umbrella" discussion to begin with. That's because some of us aren't transgender and never were. :)
For each and every time the media narrative of a trans person hits the world, tell me how often this narrative spells out anything other than that of the middle-aged, white, male-to-female, man-in-a-dress who got midway into their career (too often white collar, but there's some blue collar examples in there — just never pink collar) and threw a wrench at their wives, children, and bosses. Take all the time you need. (I'll save you some work: it's pretty rare. Like the Chaz news.)
Once you're done with that exercise, you come on back here and whine about how there's still no myth. Meanwhile, as someone who ordinarily has to sit on hands and watch the "we h9 all trans" folks explain how they have problems with men in dresses and the self-mutilation of dads who still have to put food in the mouths of children they sired — and said mythic trans people on the other side of the spat crying "oh noes transphobia! halp!" — it's been nice to challenge the myth.
The part chafing you most, trans i am? It's harder for someone like me (and those of us with experiences like mine) to be heard and seen by other people than it is to be entirely invisible, transparent, and unknown to the daily world. All that most people see and hear (in the media, on the sidewalk, etc.) are those visible trannies who validate and perpetuate the above myth. It must suck for you to realize that some trans people just don't have your back covered.
Many of us don't need your "transgender umbrella" as a precondition to fit in or just live out our lives — not that we ever had a say in the "umbrella" discussion to begin with. That's because some of us aren't transgender and never were. :)
84
@82- The story of the "middle-aged, white, male-to-female, man-in-a-dress" transgender is so often portrayed because that covers two "privileged" groups: white and male. The rest of this post is based on the assumption that there ARE privileged and unprivileged groups in our society. If you can't accept that, don't bother to keep reading.
As an FtM, I was really disheartened when I read so much about MtFs, and not many other FtMs. It wasn't 'til I came to college that I realized why that was. Here, I know one other transguy, and I found him by accident. There's a support group that meets, but I haven't gone.
For everyone else that says that you don't need surgery to change your gender: no, you don't. Gender, I think I'm androgynous as I can get. Still, I feel better when I look in the mirror and see a guy. When I stuff my pants. How am I supposed to explain this? Gender and sex are different, but they are intricately connected. Most of the time the distinction is made to talk about transpeople whose bodies are one sex but who identify as a different gender. This doesn't mean that sex and gender are completely different. Yeah, I'm a guy, but I won't feel secure in being a guy until I can be male.
As an FtM, I was really disheartened when I read so much about MtFs, and not many other FtMs. It wasn't 'til I came to college that I realized why that was. Here, I know one other transguy, and I found him by accident. There's a support group that meets, but I haven't gone.
For everyone else that says that you don't need surgery to change your gender: no, you don't. Gender, I think I'm androgynous as I can get. Still, I feel better when I look in the mirror and see a guy. When I stuff my pants. How am I supposed to explain this? Gender and sex are different, but they are intricately connected. Most of the time the distinction is made to talk about transpeople whose bodies are one sex but who identify as a different gender. This doesn't mean that sex and gender are completely different. Yeah, I'm a guy, but I won't feel secure in being a guy until I can be male.
85
@84:
I'll add:
The reason white MTF transition stories are the ones people see is because it makes for the most sensational story the media can offer. They're unfortunately not done to educate as much as trans peeps would like to believe. They're done to shock all the white straight couples. Sprinkled with a little bit of basic cultural misogyny.
as in:
"jeebus, how could a man that was happily married. . . "claim" to like women. . . have it all. . . and go and do something as "insane" as wanting to be a woman!? I mean if a chick wanted to be a guy. . . I could see that. It IS a "man's world" after all. . .who doesn't want privilege? but a dude to "want" to "become" the most insulting thing you could call another dude - a chick? That makes no sense! OMG! Crazy!
I'll add:
The reason white MTF transition stories are the ones people see is because it makes for the most sensational story the media can offer. They're unfortunately not done to educate as much as trans peeps would like to believe. They're done to shock all the white straight couples. Sprinkled with a little bit of basic cultural misogyny.
as in:
"jeebus, how could a man that was happily married. . . "claim" to like women. . . have it all. . . and go and do something as "insane" as wanting to be a woman!? I mean if a chick wanted to be a guy. . . I could see that. It IS a "man's world" after all. . .who doesn't want privilege? but a dude to "want" to "become" the most insulting thing you could call another dude - a chick? That makes no sense! OMG! Crazy!
86
@84
So. . . you're okay with describing a MTF trans peep as a "man in a dress?"
um. . . and you want others to listen to, understand and respect who you are? Really?
So. . . you're okay with describing a MTF trans peep as a "man in a dress?"
um. . . and you want others to listen to, understand and respect who you are? Really?
87
I remember watching a program about a program about a male transferring to female. He started off by getting a nose job & wearing dresses/make up. They interviewed his female co-workers and one of the points they made was that he was just acting out female stereotypes. My wife is female - but she doesn't wear dresses or make up or the colour pink
If she had to wear dresses and pink and makeup to get other people to refer to her as "she" or "wife" or "Mrs." or call her "Julie" or get healthcare, do you think she would?
A lot of MtF trans people have to live those stereotypes to get those things, because the stereotypes underlie what it is to be a woman in current American culture--and underlie our medical/psychological system's idea of what it is to be a woman, which is the system that MtF (and FtM) people have to go through to get the things that they need to live--things like aspirin and housing and condoms and education and friendships and food and medical care and an apartment and not beaten on the street.
It's not good that any woman--MtF, genderqueer, or cisgendered woman--has to live up to those stereotypes, but cisgendered women are not forced to live up to them in the same blatant ways that the standards of care often force MtF women to live up to them (don't know what the standards of care are? Google the phrase and learn).
I know a lot of MtF women who, once their transition was done, said, "oh, thank God, I can wear black tshirts from my favorite band, and sweatpants and no makeup on Saturday morning, instead of a flowered dress and heels."
When you're a cisgendered woman, people will tell you that you're not feminine enough when you don't shave your legs or never wear pink or don't like to wear dresses, but they won't take away your medication or call you by the wrong name or tell you you can't see your therapist anymore because of it--but MtF trans people get that treatment every day.
(I am sure some of the same things happen to FtM people; I am speaking to the case I know most about).
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If she had to wear dresses and pink and makeup to get other people to refer to her as "she" or "wife" or "Mrs." or call her "Julie" or get healthcare, do you think she would?
A lot of MtF trans people have to live those stereotypes to get those things, because the stereotypes underlie what it is to be a woman in current American culture--and underlie our medical/psychological system's idea of what it is to be a woman, which is the system that MtF (and FtM) people have to go through to get the things that they need to live--things like aspirin and housing and condoms and education and friendships and food and medical care and an apartment and not beaten on the street.
It's not good that any woman--MtF, genderqueer, or cisgendered woman--has to live up to those stereotypes, but cisgendered women are not forced to live up to them in the same blatant ways that the standards of care often force MtF women to live up to them (don't know what the standards of care are? Google the phrase and learn).
I know a lot of MtF women who, once their transition was done, said, "oh, thank God, I can wear black tshirts from my favorite band, and sweatpants and no makeup on Saturday morning, instead of a flowered dress and heels."
When you're a cisgendered woman, people will tell you that you're not feminine enough when you don't shave your legs or never wear pink or don't like to wear dresses, but they won't take away your medication or call you by the wrong name or tell you you can't see your therapist anymore because of it--but MtF trans people get that treatment every day.
(I am sure some of the same things happen to FtM people; I am speaking to the case I know most about).
88
@84: Precisely, AndyD.
What's also interesting is how the dynamics of privilege change with the overarching discourse of the moment. Fifteen, twenty years ago, the only voices one could read about or hear from were MtF folk only, Jamison excepted. This was long before Loren's or Patrick's name became household. A decade ago, the idea of genderqueer assumed precedence, dominantly so in academic spaces. Outside of academia, self-acclaimed MtF men-in-a-dress celebrities made their names known (Jenny Boylan's a super example of this). But with genderqueer, it became a focal point for asserting gender variance within the local dyke spaces (where I was) to coalesce and to distinguish themselves in numbers from cissexual dykes who were proudly butch. Community women's performance spaces began to amend their policies on whom could enter or perform, appending "trans-" to previously "women-only" spaces. In practice, to appear as trans and as a woman was met with a simmering antipathy. It was easier just to go and present yourself as a cissexual dyke rather than try to question it. I really don't know how those spaces have changed in the time since, and they're in a region I've been away from for about a decade. But as a dyke, it was problematic.
Perhaps the folk one runs into is a function of location and timing, though these days — on university campuses, at least — I found it was surprisingly easy to run into FtM folk and increasingly so in day-to-day interactions overall. I've friends from the Sisters colleges back east who've dryly noted that trans people are everywhere — just that they're all trans guys. This does not mesh with a lot of the women at these schools for, well, obvious reasons. The two or three trans women I've known who've attended these schools were dead silent about it for fear of bona fide retribution from cohorts right up to the dean.
I was admitted to university for the first time several years after I took ownership over my body. Unlike with FtM folk in recent years, this is still fairly uncommon for trans women. After finishing my undergrad, it dawned on me that I never once ran into another trans woman like myself. I ran into perhaps a couple dozen trans guys and knew of about a dozen more, mostly because trans-related social organization was centred on and driven by the guys on campus. Only after graduation did I learn of another trans woman in her twenties who was around, but not someone I actually ran into. The only other younger trans women I saw around town were either at the queer youth centre or the sex workers (most of whom weren't white, and some were immigrants without documentation) who were confined to a short block where johns would find them.
Other than that, there was a faculty member at another school within the university who was the stock-and-trade forty-something man-in-a-dress. I found myself in the library once when this person walked in, and other staff clearly had known this person for years before any changes in appearance began. There were perhaps one or two people who seemed non-plussed, while the rest (around 8 or 10 people) seemed to be tip-toeing a politically correct tightrope.
Thing is, I've known more trans guys in Seattle than I have trans women, though I've always tended to see the men-in-dresses nearly always, mostly around Cap Hill and suburban, middle-class trannies who do their nights on the town during weekend.
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What's also interesting is how the dynamics of privilege change with the overarching discourse of the moment. Fifteen, twenty years ago, the only voices one could read about or hear from were MtF folk only, Jamison excepted. This was long before Loren's or Patrick's name became household. A decade ago, the idea of genderqueer assumed precedence, dominantly so in academic spaces. Outside of academia, self-acclaimed MtF men-in-a-dress celebrities made their names known (Jenny Boylan's a super example of this). But with genderqueer, it became a focal point for asserting gender variance within the local dyke spaces (where I was) to coalesce and to distinguish themselves in numbers from cissexual dykes who were proudly butch. Community women's performance spaces began to amend their policies on whom could enter or perform, appending "trans-" to previously "women-only" spaces. In practice, to appear as trans and as a woman was met with a simmering antipathy. It was easier just to go and present yourself as a cissexual dyke rather than try to question it. I really don't know how those spaces have changed in the time since, and they're in a region I've been away from for about a decade. But as a dyke, it was problematic.
Perhaps the folk one runs into is a function of location and timing, though these days — on university campuses, at least — I found it was surprisingly easy to run into FtM folk and increasingly so in day-to-day interactions overall. I've friends from the Sisters colleges back east who've dryly noted that trans people are everywhere — just that they're all trans guys. This does not mesh with a lot of the women at these schools for, well, obvious reasons. The two or three trans women I've known who've attended these schools were dead silent about it for fear of bona fide retribution from cohorts right up to the dean.
I was admitted to university for the first time several years after I took ownership over my body. Unlike with FtM folk in recent years, this is still fairly uncommon for trans women. After finishing my undergrad, it dawned on me that I never once ran into another trans woman like myself. I ran into perhaps a couple dozen trans guys and knew of about a dozen more, mostly because trans-related social organization was centred on and driven by the guys on campus. Only after graduation did I learn of another trans woman in her twenties who was around, but not someone I actually ran into. The only other younger trans women I saw around town were either at the queer youth centre or the sex workers (most of whom weren't white, and some were immigrants without documentation) who were confined to a short block where johns would find them.
Other than that, there was a faculty member at another school within the university who was the stock-and-trade forty-something man-in-a-dress. I found myself in the library once when this person walked in, and other staff clearly had known this person for years before any changes in appearance began. There were perhaps one or two people who seemed non-plussed, while the rest (around 8 or 10 people) seemed to be tip-toeing a politically correct tightrope.
Thing is, I've known more trans guys in Seattle than I have trans women, though I've always tended to see the men-in-dresses nearly always, mostly around Cap Hill and suburban, middle-class trannies who do their nights on the town during weekend.
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