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News & ArtsFriday, November 20, 2009
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: Hot & Drunk
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 12:06 PM
I met a guy about two months ago through weird and serendipitous circumstances on my last visit back home to Tucson and he's great in so many ways. We get along really well, have a lot of common interests, his friends and family that I've met so far I like and they like me. It gets cuter: we're both musicians and we make beautiful music together and have played two shows together. I kind of gave up hope on sharing any of my kinky proclivities with new guys I meet so as not to scare them off (electricity, needles, knives), but he's down and even has some kinks of his own that I haven't tried but think I could get into (watersports). I had given up my dream on getting to peg someone that I was really attracted to... and this guy is down... and it's awesome. I really love giving head, and he really loves eating snatch and I never knew 69 to be so good. We're GGG sluts for each other.This is where the sad part comes into play: he's the most severe alcoholic I've ever met. He's really young (22, I'm 25), but he's in so deep with alcoholism that he has the DTs on a regular basis.
The rest of TSO's long letter—and my short response—after the jump.
The first time we had sex he drank nearly half a fifth of Wild Turkey. I told him that I didn't want to have drunk sex for our first time, and he said it was impossible for him not to because he's always drunk. I went ahead and had sex with him anyway because I was horny. Later he mentioned that he can't get off from sex because that's "just the way [he is]." I suggested that maybe it was because he's always drunk when he has sex. His response: "I've had sex sober before..."I live in Portland, he lives in Tucson. Which would make it easier for me to walk away, but part of me really thinks that he's "the one." Which I loathe saying, but it's my gut feeling. But maybe he isn't really not "the one" because I won't do something like, say, bondage play or something really new and edgy when my partner and I are fucked up. And since he's always fucked up, I'd never get the chance to do the fun and nasty things I'd like to try. I tend to do most things sober, not fucked up. And hope that whatever I'm doing stuff with is also sober. I believe there's a time to get fucked up, but it's not all the time.
Sensible me says run, romantic-at-heart me (or is it codependent me?) says, "But he's so perfect EXCEPT for that."
All of the practical stuff is set up where it would be really easy for me to disappear and just not talk to him again, but I feel like there's a tactful way that I can tell him that I can't be in touch with him because he's sick and I don't want to get pulled into that mess. I have a letter ready to send in the mail, but I'm really hesitant to send it off to him because I still enjoy hearing his voice on the phone and getting texts from him. And shit, Thanksgiving is coming up, then his birthday, then Christmas, then New Years all in rapid succession. It's awful timing. I really like him and I really hate that he's a drunk. And I don't know how to bring it up when I talk to him so that this letter that I send him isn't just coming from left field. Any suggestions on how to proceed?
The Soberer One
The "one" is a myth—a destructive myth. Otherwise sensible people will keep seeing someone despite red flags and major damage because, hey, what if turns out that this guy was "the one" and I dumped him just because he had a drinking problem/a drug problem/a lying problem/a Republican problem/a little girls problem. When you find yourself making that kind of rationalization, TSO, remind yourself that there is no "one," singular, there are only guys—numerous guys—who come close enough to your ideal mate that they feel like this mythical "one" you've been lied to about all your life. When you find yourself tempted to overlook, say, a huge drinking problem, that's when you need to remind yourself that there are other "ones," plural, out there. In your case, TSO, there are other hot, fun, sexually adventurous guys out there... you just need to get out there and find one, another one, a different one. And you won't be able to do that if you're pouring all your time and energy into rescuing this fucked up drunk from himself.
He could be a good guy for you, a really good match, if he weren't so fucked up. But he is so fucked up. He's disqualified. And while he may be a hot drunk now, at age 22, have you seen what hardcore alcoholics look like by age 35? You're way too young for this reference, I realize, but Google "Jan Michael Vincent" and then send that letter.
3
Gg. If you think he's "the one" -- like Neo, but with fewer capitals? -- just remember it only really works out if he thinks the same of you. If he knows his alcoholism is a problem for you, he'll make a serious effort to get over it. If he doesn't, well, you're less important than being shitfaced all the time, and *that* is the fatal flaw with him.
And it's *always* bad timing to dump someone. Might as well get it over with.
And it's *always* bad timing to dump someone. Might as well get it over with.
4
he's a big enough mess to have the DTs at 22? (22!)
he's not going to be around long enough to be "the one" if he doesn't change his ways. the DTs itself can be fatal, never mind the damage he's doing to his liver and heart and esophogus, etc., etc.
he's not going to be around long enough to be "the one" if he doesn't change his ways. the DTs itself can be fatal, never mind the damage he's doing to his liver and heart and esophogus, etc., etc.
5
And please hurry. Don't let this drag on a moment longer. Fucking an untreated alcoholic more than a couple times can have a long-term mindbending effect. Run.
6
OK, this girl lives in Portland, which like SF and Seattle, has a well established kink community. She should have no problem finding guys that will be up for all that and more. So what else, he has great friends, he's a musician? Come on, there are tons of non-alcoholics that meet this criteria in any city.
7
Or, if he knows his alcoholism is a serious problem for you, he'll find a way to convince you he's making a serious effort to get over it, which will allow him to string you along for a series of setbacks and, ultimately, failure. The road to hell...
8
I've dated so many charming alcoholics, I made a speciality out of it. Always a disaster! I wish I could say to my younger self "it's not worth it girl, RUN!"
I hope she can develop the confidence and self-esteem to know that she can do better and that there are many many other men out there who are GGG and have the kinks she wants and more. Run girl, run, you don't need this heartache.
I hope she can develop the confidence and self-esteem to know that she can do better and that there are many many other men out there who are GGG and have the kinks she wants and more. Run girl, run, you don't need this heartache.
9
I'd just like to point out that there are plenty of men into her kinks. Many of them live much closer than Tuscon and aren't drunks.
Also, 7 has a very good point about how addicts prolong relationships.
Also, 7 has a very good point about how addicts prolong relationships.
11
but what if its TRUE LOVE and the universe wants them to be together? I've dated too many girls who believe that nonsense. It must be a product of our self indulgent culture. I blame Disney and their fucking princesses.
13
Even if he changed and managed to sober up his entire reason for recovery would be dependant on the relationship. That's a very bad foundation for his sobriety. If their relationship had hard times there would be no reason for him to not get drunk.
17
By the way, what is it with the charming alcoholics, are they charming because of the alcohol (it helps them open up) or in spite of it?
18
the day i got a restraining order against my hot ex 'the one' boyfriend ( which was the week after he showed up at my house so drunk that he shat himself ) he exclaimed that he wasn't a drunk anymore, even though i could smell it on his breath. wen i told him i could smell it on his breath he said ' i'm not drunk, i'm just drinking'. he was serious.he didn't know that he was quoting a country song. and then he threatened to kick my ass... and then he threatened to kill me...
seriously... dump him.
seriously... dump him.
20
TSO said:
>> It's awful timing.
It's always awful timing. There will never be a "good" time to reject someone. The sooner the better is the closest you can get.
>> It's awful timing.
It's always awful timing. There will never be a "good" time to reject someone. The sooner the better is the closest you can get.
22
what about trying to get him to go to treatment? he's 22 - surely there's hope for successful rehab. if you really care about him, maybe put the relationship on hold but be a friend and try to get him to get help? at least once, before you cut him out entirely.
24
Don't bother babying him into rehab, either. Rehab only works the first seven times, or until your insurance runs out, whichever comes first.
25
My ex was an alcoholic. Before we married, I broke it off with him and said I couldn't deal with it. He sobered up, and like the naive idiot I was, I thought "He really loves me! He gave up alcohol because he wants to be with me."
We got married, and I found out what he was covering up with his alcoholism. It took 6 years of marriage and a horrendous divorce (complete with stalking, death threats and restraining order) to get out of it. Leave while you still can end it easily. Great sex is not a good enough reason to stay with a drunk--I've been with enough guys after my divorce who were plenty GGG and didn't have to be wasted to play.
We got married, and I found out what he was covering up with his alcoholism. It took 6 years of marriage and a horrendous divorce (complete with stalking, death threats and restraining order) to get out of it. Leave while you still can end it easily. Great sex is not a good enough reason to stay with a drunk--I've been with enough guys after my divorce who were plenty GGG and didn't have to be wasted to play.
26
Holy christ. He's 22 and regularly has the DTs?! Honey, he's not going to be around long enough to be "the one," even if those existed (which they don't).
27
Get to an Al-Anon meeting STAT. http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/ If you aren't religious, ignore the God stuff and just listen to the people around you. Alcoholism, among other things, is a disease of selfishness. It has nothing to do with you. Get out of the way before he takes you down with him. Seriously.
28
TSO,
Here is the advice I've given numerous times to women trying to get out of emotionally and physically abusive marriages and LTRs, some whose partners have substance abuse problems. They, like you, all think he is the "one", and that they can fix him.
1) You can't fix someone who doesn't seek to fix themselves. There is no amount of love, joy, peace, kindness, gentleness, patience, goodness, faithfulness, or self-control you can offer him. You'll never be able to love him enough. He has to love himself enough to get healthy.
2) If he truly is the "one" (For the record I don't believe in the idea of the "one".), but understand that you may, then you will find each other again, when he is clean an sober.
Basically you have two choices: a)watch him drink himself to death and suffer with him, and b) break it off and set him free to hopefully get healthy for himself.
Take Dan's advice. You are worth it.
Best wishes.
Here is the advice I've given numerous times to women trying to get out of emotionally and physically abusive marriages and LTRs, some whose partners have substance abuse problems. They, like you, all think he is the "one", and that they can fix him.
1) You can't fix someone who doesn't seek to fix themselves. There is no amount of love, joy, peace, kindness, gentleness, patience, goodness, faithfulness, or self-control you can offer him. You'll never be able to love him enough. He has to love himself enough to get healthy.
2) If he truly is the "one" (For the record I don't believe in the idea of the "one".), but understand that you may, then you will find each other again, when he is clean an sober.
Basically you have two choices: a)watch him drink himself to death and suffer with him, and b) break it off and set him free to hopefully get healthy for himself.
Take Dan's advice. You are worth it.
Best wishes.
30
Dump him NOW and tell him why. Don't let him convince you he will "change" for you. He has to see that he needs to change for himself. If, in time, he calls you back and says he's been sober for over a year, take it from there.
That being said, yeah, there are single men in Portland (ahem) who are GGG (ahem, though I'm probably too old for you...just sayin'). One of the best things I have done for myself (@11, it's not just women who suffer from this) is to destroy, for once and for all, the myth in my head of "the one."
That being said, yeah, there are single men in Portland (ahem) who are GGG (ahem, though I'm probably too old for you...just sayin'). One of the best things I have done for myself (@11, it's not just women who suffer from this) is to destroy, for once and for all, the myth in my head of "the one."
31
There's a reason why I don't sleep with drunk slutty girls.
It's cause they're drunks.
Tipsy - sure. But if they're getting DTs ... not good.
It's cause they're drunks.
Tipsy - sure. But if they're getting DTs ... not good.
32
Personally I'd have a very hard time with a partner who never orgasmed, even if he was "The One."
34
Sorry for the long comment, Good advice Dan-
Speaking as someone who is in 3 year relationship with a non-using alcoholic- there are absolutely no easy answers for anyone who cares for a struggling alcoholic.
I feel like what has helped me the most in my relationship- (and the only reason I have stayed) is that my partner has absolutely no desire to use alcohol because what it does to him,. and on the occasions (very few) that he has slipped and used- he has pulled himself back out of it, and into sobriety on his on terms. It hurts, the lies, the struggle.. but he always finds his path pretty quickly.
Wishing and hoping that someone will quit 'for you' does not work. They have to WANT to quit, on their own term- and if they don't, and feel cornered and threatened by you- they will just use that as a (another) reason to drink. Their sobriety will not be successful for long if they are not doing it for themselves. TSO- your boyfriend needs to find himself and want to quit.. and he needs to realize that means NEVER having a drink again- not because it is a special occasion, or a party, or the weekend, or because of a tragedy.. never again.
I want to point out that, (and TSO seems to know) that the type of kinks she is into takes EXTREME trust in your sex partner. You ÇANNOT EVER trust a using alcoholic.. ever ever ever. Please for your safety do not play with your kinks with him.
It seems like from her letter, that her boyfriend is comfortable being an alcoholic- he's not fighting the fight. And with that, I say, write your letter with all the reasons you can't be with him, wish him the best, and say good-bye. You cannot let yourself be taken down by him- it is absolute heartache. Remember, you cannot change him. It has to come within him. I know it sucks and hurts to think that he 'wouldn't change for you',.. but that is just not the way it works. Good luck.
ps- Al Anon is a branch of AA- (for the people affected by an Alcoholic) It has very helpful aspects- mainly hearing others talk about their experiences.. and realizing that you are not alone or crazy- if you stay with him or not, it helps you heal. - hope this rambling has helped- thanks for reading!
More...
Speaking as someone who is in 3 year relationship with a non-using alcoholic- there are absolutely no easy answers for anyone who cares for a struggling alcoholic.
I feel like what has helped me the most in my relationship- (and the only reason I have stayed) is that my partner has absolutely no desire to use alcohol because what it does to him,. and on the occasions (very few) that he has slipped and used- he has pulled himself back out of it, and into sobriety on his on terms. It hurts, the lies, the struggle.. but he always finds his path pretty quickly.
Wishing and hoping that someone will quit 'for you' does not work. They have to WANT to quit, on their own term- and if they don't, and feel cornered and threatened by you- they will just use that as a (another) reason to drink. Their sobriety will not be successful for long if they are not doing it for themselves. TSO- your boyfriend needs to find himself and want to quit.. and he needs to realize that means NEVER having a drink again- not because it is a special occasion, or a party, or the weekend, or because of a tragedy.. never again.
I want to point out that, (and TSO seems to know) that the type of kinks she is into takes EXTREME trust in your sex partner. You ÇANNOT EVER trust a using alcoholic.. ever ever ever. Please for your safety do not play with your kinks with him.
It seems like from her letter, that her boyfriend is comfortable being an alcoholic- he's not fighting the fight. And with that, I say, write your letter with all the reasons you can't be with him, wish him the best, and say good-bye. You cannot let yourself be taken down by him- it is absolute heartache. Remember, you cannot change him. It has to come within him. I know it sucks and hurts to think that he 'wouldn't change for you',.. but that is just not the way it works. Good luck.
ps- Al Anon is a branch of AA- (for the people affected by an Alcoholic) It has very helpful aspects- mainly hearing others talk about their experiences.. and realizing that you are not alone or crazy- if you stay with him or not, it helps you heal. - hope this rambling has helped- thanks for reading!
36
"But he's so perfect EXCEPT for that."
This is a lovely notion until you realize that this isn't just a rationalization, it's also a punchline:
"Aside from that, how did you like Dallas, Mrs. Kennedy?"
This is a lovely notion until you realize that this isn't just a rationalization, it's also a punchline:
"Aside from that, how did you like Dallas, Mrs. Kennedy?"
37
What the romantic tragedy.
I guess what the question boils down to is: how far does her love, or the belief in her own love for this man (as much as one can really know a man in a few month's time) drive her to stay with him despite the violent trembling and inevitable brain damage. Is she ready to have a relationship with that man become her grave; is that an acceptable place to find her end?
As a heavy drinker, descended from a very long line of functional heavy drinkers, ironically I can well-understand the contempt for alcoholics. There is absolutely nothing anyone else can do for an alcoholic, or any substance abuser in general; the passion for reform must ultimately arise from one's self, and very few individuals have the hardness of soul for that, so the prognosis is poor. More to the point, many recovered alcoholics I find to make absolutely terribly company and conversation; as if the whole magnificence of a man's life could be reduced to the struggle against one of a wide variety of temptations; and that is the only way others will eventually perceive him.
I sure as hell wouldn't want to be in a relationship with another I was only capable of readily perceiving as a potential drink-abuser; that's like owning a miserable two-legged dog whose every whimper as it drags itself across uneven cobbles, bouncing periodically as it does, sends horrible pangs of pity up and down one's spine. I could die of my pity for such a person, should I have to constantly be reminded of their sufferings.
I guess what the question boils down to is: how far does her love, or the belief in her own love for this man (as much as one can really know a man in a few month's time) drive her to stay with him despite the violent trembling and inevitable brain damage. Is she ready to have a relationship with that man become her grave; is that an acceptable place to find her end?
As a heavy drinker, descended from a very long line of functional heavy drinkers, ironically I can well-understand the contempt for alcoholics. There is absolutely nothing anyone else can do for an alcoholic, or any substance abuser in general; the passion for reform must ultimately arise from one's self, and very few individuals have the hardness of soul for that, so the prognosis is poor. More to the point, many recovered alcoholics I find to make absolutely terribly company and conversation; as if the whole magnificence of a man's life could be reduced to the struggle against one of a wide variety of temptations; and that is the only way others will eventually perceive him.
I sure as hell wouldn't want to be in a relationship with another I was only capable of readily perceiving as a potential drink-abuser; that's like owning a miserable two-legged dog whose every whimper as it drags itself across uneven cobbles, bouncing periodically as it does, sends horrible pangs of pity up and down one's spine. I could die of my pity for such a person, should I have to constantly be reminded of their sufferings.
40
One word: Run.
Anyone whose tried to make it work with an alcoholic will say the same thing: Run. Unless you want to be a babysitter for the rest of your life, because it never ends, run. Unless you want to watch a cute 22-yo turn into the inevitable ugly drunkard at the bar, run. Unless you want to go to Al-Anon, therapy, counseling, rehab, hospitals—and this is just for him, hopefully he won't grow into a physical, mean drunk and beat you up—run. Unless you want to keep alcohol out of the house and your own life, and befriend and socialize only with sober people because his sobriety (if you're lucky and he sobers up) will become the focus of both your lives, run.
Someone gave me the same advice once, and taking it, without hesitation, after years trying to make it work with a wonderful, sweet, sexy alcoholic, was a decision I frequently breathe a sigh of relief for.
Anyone whose tried to make it work with an alcoholic will say the same thing: Run. Unless you want to be a babysitter for the rest of your life, because it never ends, run. Unless you want to watch a cute 22-yo turn into the inevitable ugly drunkard at the bar, run. Unless you want to go to Al-Anon, therapy, counseling, rehab, hospitals—and this is just for him, hopefully he won't grow into a physical, mean drunk and beat you up—run. Unless you want to keep alcohol out of the house and your own life, and befriend and socialize only with sober people because his sobriety (if you're lucky and he sobers up) will become the focus of both your lives, run.
Someone gave me the same advice once, and taking it, without hesitation, after years trying to make it work with a wonderful, sweet, sexy alcoholic, was a decision I frequently breathe a sigh of relief for.
41
One word: Run.
Anyone whose tried to make it work with an alcoholic will say the same thing: Run. Unless you want to be a babysitter for the rest of your life, because it never ends, run. Unless you want to watch a cute 22-yo turn into the inevitable ugly drunkard at the bar, run. Unless you want to go to Al-Anon, therapy, counseling, rehab, hospitals—and this is just for him, hopefully he won't grow into a physical, mean drunk and beat you up—run. Unless you want to keep alcohol out of the house and your own life, and befriend and socialize only with sober people because his sobriety (if you're lucky and he sobers up) will become the focus of both your lives, run.
Someone gave me the same advice once, and taking it, without hesitation, after years trying to make it work with a wonderful, sweet, sexy alcoholic, was a decision I frequently breathe a sigh of relief for.
Anyone whose tried to make it work with an alcoholic will say the same thing: Run. Unless you want to be a babysitter for the rest of your life, because it never ends, run. Unless you want to watch a cute 22-yo turn into the inevitable ugly drunkard at the bar, run. Unless you want to go to Al-Anon, therapy, counseling, rehab, hospitals—and this is just for him, hopefully he won't grow into a physical, mean drunk and beat you up—run. Unless you want to keep alcohol out of the house and your own life, and befriend and socialize only with sober people because his sobriety (if you're lucky and he sobers up) will become the focus of both your lives, run.
Someone gave me the same advice once, and taking it, without hesitation, after years trying to make it work with a wonderful, sweet, sexy alcoholic, was a decision I frequently breathe a sigh of relief for.
42
@38 for the SPAM ... no wins, cause you can never win with anything involving someone that drunk.
43
I was going to say that she could give him a get-rehab-or-I'm-leaving ultimatum, but @30 has a better approach to it. I think that's exactly right: break it off, tell him why, and you can be open to taking him back down the line, but only after he's sobered up.
44
Ignore the people who say go to Alanon or AA. IGNORE THEM. Suggest he go to a hospital and GET OUT of his drama. AA and Alanon are cults and you might as well be an alcoholic. Yeah, people will yell and scream, because, like many cults, people who are into them defend them loudly. And people who know nothing about them buy into them because so many people support them loudly. You MAYBE can "ignore the God stuff," but it's pretty hard to ignore the cult stuff.
Yeah, shut up, pro-AA-ers. Your group's a cult. Whatever you say, recovery, one day at a time, prayers--it's crap.
There are alternatives, but the writer is not into (blearrgh) "recovery." There's only one thing worse than having a boyfriend whose an alcoholic--it's having a boyfriend " in "recovery."
Yeah, shut up, pro-AA-ers. Your group's a cult. Whatever you say, recovery, one day at a time, prayers--it's crap.
There are alternatives, but the writer is not into (blearrgh) "recovery." There's only one thing worse than having a boyfriend whose an alcoholic--it's having a boyfriend " in "recovery."
46
Good god, girl. With the all kinky shit you're into it's a miracle even a drunk would want you. Grab this guy by the balls and never let him go. Don't worry if he never sobers up - you wouldn't like him that way anyway. Listen honey, he's only 22, so get it while the getting's good. Trust me, when you're 30 and a burnt-out hag, no one will want you to touch you with a ten foot pole, or blade, or knife, or whatever weird thing you are sticking yourself with at the time.
48
@44 I never joined the cult. I went to Al-Anon and realized that I couldn't change the alcoholic I was with, and listened to story after story that were uncannily like mine. I never went regularly, and I don't go now. But I owe Al-Anon a lot in helping me get out of a really damaging, hopeless alcoholic relationship. I totally disagree with you.
50
@48
Same thing happened to me. That scary "cult" 44 denigrates helped me get out of a horrible alcoholic relationship at a time when I desperately needed support and understanding. Haven't been to those meetings since, but boy was I grateful they existed back then.
Same thing happened to me. That scary "cult" 44 denigrates helped me get out of a horrible alcoholic relationship at a time when I desperately needed support and understanding. Haven't been to those meetings since, but boy was I grateful they existed back then.
51
Re: @44's anti-AA hysteria:
There is one thing worse than having a loved one "in recovery". It's having a loved one who's dead.
There is one thing worse than having a loved one "in recovery". It's having a loved one who's dead.
52
Get out. I have never had a romantic relationship with a drunk/drug addict. Why? Because I've already had familial relationships with drunks/drug addicts. They never really change. They'll either clean themselves up temporarily or just trade one addiction for another. The best you can hope for is that they trade in their alcoholism/cocaine addiction for Religion or Exercise, a socially acceptable addiction.... instead of gambling, shopping, or meth. Run, TSO, run away fast! You can't salvage him. You can only save yourself.
53
Here's a simple rule for living. If you have any doubt about someone you date while you're in your 20s, dump him. There are a bazillion other men available to 20-something women. By the time you're 30 you'll be smart enough to answer incredibly obvious questions like this one.
54
i was in a relationship with my "one"....he and i were psychotically codependant and very much in love and he was an alcoholic and was slowly dragging me down the same path...we were together for 2 years and had sex maybe 4 times. i left him with many tears and regrets, and always felt that i could change him if i really put everything into it. but he turned up dead a year later, they found him on a sidewalk, of alcohol poisoning. don't invest time into this person...i am still haunted every day.
55
@ 44 and 45.
I agree with your anti-AA statements. It's a cult. And it certainly makes people boring.
Check out Rational Recovery, if you must. Some of its better points are challenging the myth of alcoholism as a disease, and it doesn't have the religious hocus pocus that accompanies AA.
As for @37 with "many recovered alcoholics I find to make absolutely terribly company and conversation; as if the whole magnificence of a man's life could be reduced to the struggle against one of a wide variety of temptations; and that is the only way others will eventually perceive him."
Awesome.
I agree with your anti-AA statements. It's a cult. And it certainly makes people boring.
Check out Rational Recovery, if you must. Some of its better points are challenging the myth of alcoholism as a disease, and it doesn't have the religious hocus pocus that accompanies AA.
As for @37 with "many recovered alcoholics I find to make absolutely terribly company and conversation; as if the whole magnificence of a man's life could be reduced to the struggle against one of a wide variety of temptations; and that is the only way others will eventually perceive him."
Awesome.
56
Like many in the comments I dated more than one of those really hot 'n' charming drunks. It's what you do in your 20s I guess. It always ended poorly. Jealousy, week-long comas, jail, STDs, heartbreak.
I still think fondly back on one of them. He was The One, except he wasn't. Because he was a drunk.
I still think fondly back on one of them. He was The One, except he wasn't. Because he was a drunk.
57
Dan and every other commenter, THANK YOU. My last serious boyfriend (full disclosure: I'm 27, was 25 then) was "The One" except for his raging alcoholism which led to fun things like DUIs, suspended licenses, jail time, massive amounts of debt...and yet when we broke up I was fucking devastated. It's taken me a good long while to realize what a blessing that breakup was because now, two years later, friends tell me he's drinking even more and fucking up even worse and I, thank God, no longer have him in my life.
58
You don't have the balls to dump him, so at least try to have your eyes open as he rips you to shreds.
Try to see what kind of a person you must be so that, while you are one of the few people in the world who might actually influence him, you won't do anything to actually help him. Oh, you'll hug him and encourage him 'n shit, and he'll shift his techniques but the end will always be the same: alcohol.
So why won't you actually put the relationship on the line? Because, in the end, dear, you are just as much of an asshole as he is.
Try to see what kind of a person you must be so that, while you are one of the few people in the world who might actually influence him, you won't do anything to actually help him. Oh, you'll hug him and encourage him 'n shit, and he'll shift his techniques but the end will always be the same: alcohol.
So why won't you actually put the relationship on the line? Because, in the end, dear, you are just as much of an asshole as he is.
59
Jan Michael Vincent!!
Swoon. I haven't thought about him in years. I got so hot for him in The Winds of War when I was a young boy. sigh.
Swoon. I haven't thought about him in years. I got so hot for him in The Winds of War when I was a young boy. sigh.
60
I think this would actually be easier for TSO to do if they actually lived in the same city. At some level the success/failure of a relationship depends on the ratio of good stuff to bullshit. If she lived in the same city with this guy I imagine the daily bullshit of his alcoholism would quickly kick in and cause her to end it. As it is, she's insulated from daily bullshit and mostly gets nice phone calls.
61
To the letter writer (can't remember her acronym):Like many others, I don't believe in the notion of "the one.". I also think that many women confuse emotional intensity with "true love.". People with serious psychological problems tend to generate lots of drama. You might really find that drama appealing and exciting right now. I'm guessing there's a lot of stuff you didn't include in your letter, episodes like him crying in your arms because he just NEEDS you so MUCH, or you coming to his rescue after he's had a blowout with and friend or a bandmate. DTs at 22 as a descriptive phrase implies a lot. It can be an ego boost (to be so needed) and a real thrill ride that feels like love but it's not. Eventually, it will become emotionally draining and dangerous. Get out while you're still
young and alive. I'm serious about the alive part. As soon as he truly bonds with you he'll turn on
you. Nobody who drinks that much has high self-esteem so he'll come to despise you for caring about him.
young and alive. I'm serious about the alive part. As soon as he truly bonds with you he'll turn on
you. Nobody who drinks that much has high self-esteem so he'll come to despise you for caring about him.
62
@37, 44, and 55: Your stereotyping, generalizing, and reductionism (not to mention vitriol) invalidates whatever point you are trying to make. The "recovery" community, whatever that means, is just as diverse as any other. There are shallow, boring, and dogmatic types (plenty, to be sure) but there are many, many people who get sober and use their recovery as a springboard to a fuller life. As with anything else, you don't hear about them so much because they don't advertise it. In fact, you wouldn't even know it unless you took them to a bar and noticed they ordered a soda. Calling it a cult is on the same level as Glenn Beck shouting, "Socialist-Marxist-Nazi!" It has no fucking meaning and is simply wrong.
63
@62 Thanks for stereotyping and generalizing and reducing me, by saying my point is identical to that of 37 and 44. I recommend Rational Recovery, because recovery makes sense in some cases. By incompletely responding to my post, your post had no fucking meaning and was simply wrong.
64
Not that I think violence is ok or anything, but I dated a drunk for a few months once and it ended with me smacking him, in public. Because he had been quite publicly drunk for over 48 hours at a weekend activity we were attending together...and he topped it off by screaming at me (in public) for some reason I can't remember. I was absolutely mortified at my own behavior but that about sums up what it is like to date a drunk. Everyone involved goes crazy.
Relatively straightforward evenings like "stay home and play games and then screw and go to bed" end up with him having somehow consumed NINE beers just while playing a few games of backgammon and then him passing out between my legs while attempting cunnilingus.
Relatively straightforward evenings like "stay home and play games and then screw and go to bed" end up with him having somehow consumed NINE beers just while playing a few games of backgammon and then him passing out between my legs while attempting cunnilingus.
65
@63 Perhaps, if you take a second look, you may notice I did NOT say your point was identical. I can respect your recommendation, as I hardly think the 12 steps have or should have a monopoly on recovery.
I was referring to your cult comment and I still stand by what I said about it.
I was referring to your cult comment and I still stand by what I said about it.
67
Re "the one": When people (male & female) use this phrase, I think it's rarely in an ultra-romantic sense, like "this is my PERFECT mate, and there's no one else IN THE WORLD more compatible." More often, I think it's used in a more realistic sense, like, "this is someone whose quirks & faults & emotional baggage I think can put up with long-term." There's an acknowledgement (at least on some level) that there are "other Ones" out there that could be found with sufficient effort.
Of course, if one views severe alcoholism (to the point of him getting the DT's at 22) as a "quirk," that's clearly NOT being realistic.
Of course, if one views severe alcoholism (to the point of him getting the DT's at 22) as a "quirk," that's clearly NOT being realistic.
68
NOT FAIR. Sure Jan Michael Vincent looks like shit. He's 65 not 35. You'll look better than him when you're 65 Dan, but not that much.
69
NOT FAIR. Sure Jan Michael Vincent looks like shit. He's 65 not 35. You'll look better than him when you're 65 Dan, but not that much.
70
Dan, I don't think you can recommend an unqualified dumping to this girl while utterly discounting the depth of her feelings for this guy and hope that it's going to stick.
You can say "there's no such thing as 'the one'" as much as you want, but that doesn't change the experience that some people have of meeting someone and knowing on a very deep and instinctual level that they have a connection that will *never* be replicated with someone else. People experience this often, and plenty of times, they're right. This girl does not need to hear, "Oh, you can dump him 'cuz you'll totally meet someone just as good," she needs to hear, "You may never have a connection like this with someone else, but that doesn't mean it's worth it."
Having said that...in my experience, people who deal with severe alcoholism at younger ages have a better chance of making a full recovery than older people; when you're young, you have less self-control, less maturity, less emotional center and wisdom and it's easier to fall into physical/chemical alcohol addiction accidentally. This is especially true, I think, for young men who get exposed to alcohol in a culture of prohibition and then find that binge drinking is glamorized and used as a rite of passage/show of masculinity.
For this reason, he may have a better chance of recovering than someone who's older and whose drinking more likely comes about as a result of life problems they can't control. In my life, I've known some young former alcoholics who can now even drink socially without a problem, whereas most of the middle-aged folks I know...they don't recover.
This girl shouldn't try to stick around and "fix" this guy, but at age 22, I think there's a good chance that hearing, "I love you, I think you're the one, but I can't watch you kill yourself. I'm gone until you clean up your act," may be enough to get him to seek the help he needs and I think that's a better approach than just walking away and leaving him to his death.
More...
You can say "there's no such thing as 'the one'" as much as you want, but that doesn't change the experience that some people have of meeting someone and knowing on a very deep and instinctual level that they have a connection that will *never* be replicated with someone else. People experience this often, and plenty of times, they're right. This girl does not need to hear, "Oh, you can dump him 'cuz you'll totally meet someone just as good," she needs to hear, "You may never have a connection like this with someone else, but that doesn't mean it's worth it."
Having said that...in my experience, people who deal with severe alcoholism at younger ages have a better chance of making a full recovery than older people; when you're young, you have less self-control, less maturity, less emotional center and wisdom and it's easier to fall into physical/chemical alcohol addiction accidentally. This is especially true, I think, for young men who get exposed to alcohol in a culture of prohibition and then find that binge drinking is glamorized and used as a rite of passage/show of masculinity.
For this reason, he may have a better chance of recovering than someone who's older and whose drinking more likely comes about as a result of life problems they can't control. In my life, I've known some young former alcoholics who can now even drink socially without a problem, whereas most of the middle-aged folks I know...they don't recover.
This girl shouldn't try to stick around and "fix" this guy, but at age 22, I think there's a good chance that hearing, "I love you, I think you're the one, but I can't watch you kill yourself. I'm gone until you clean up your act," may be enough to get him to seek the help he needs and I think that's a better approach than just walking away and leaving him to his death.
71
If you're a fan of the Pogues, google Shane. I think he's stumbling round Thailand somewhere these days, toothless and incoherent.
74
Never go into a relationship with the attitude that it'll all be perfect as soon as the other person changes this One Tiny Little Thing. The person is who they are. If they change, and the change is something you wanted, great. But either take them how they are, or explain to them how that One Tiny Little Thing makes it impossible for you to have a serious relationship with them.
I see so many women (and it is mostly women) get caught in this trap. "He's perfect, except for his (irrational jealousy/can't hold a job/serious drug habit/mommy issues). As soon as I get him to change that One Tiny Little Thing, we'll be happy Ever After!" No. Doesn't work that way. If that One Tiny Little Thing is a deal-breaker, just assume it's part of the person's personality. If they change it, bonus. But that only happens occasionally, and only when THEY want to change, not when YOU want them to change.
For an alkie, nagging isn't gonna work. Cajoling isn't gonna work. Leaving them probably won't work either. The person usually has to experience a real personal crisis and lose something (or many somethings) they value more than the hold alcohol has on their poor sodden brain.
I see so many women (and it is mostly women) get caught in this trap. "He's perfect, except for his (irrational jealousy/can't hold a job/serious drug habit/mommy issues). As soon as I get him to change that One Tiny Little Thing, we'll be happy Ever After!" No. Doesn't work that way. If that One Tiny Little Thing is a deal-breaker, just assume it's part of the person's personality. If they change it, bonus. But that only happens occasionally, and only when THEY want to change, not when YOU want them to change.
For an alkie, nagging isn't gonna work. Cajoling isn't gonna work. Leaving them probably won't work either. The person usually has to experience a real personal crisis and lose something (or many somethings) they value more than the hold alcohol has on their poor sodden brain.
75
This mirrors a situation I was in last year to a big degree. It was even more tempting to reach out to this other person because I have so little sex in my life. But no matter how great the sex was, there was no getting around the fact that the woman had a serious substance abuse problem, multiple stays in rehab, doesn't want to use any other outside support systems (therapy, family, etc.), and is apparently content w/staying at home drinking until she passes out while totally abdicating from any responsibility of looking after herself. She wishes I was there w/her, but I know I'd only get sucked into her madness. So though I'm lonely, I consider myself lucky. My advice is to stay away and consider yourself lucky too.
76
beloved lovett (@63) & others,
Agree w/ bhowie wholeheartedly. If this person gets him/herself into AA, is put off by it's "cult" like nature, then fine, leave. But the reality this is a fantastic program (and it's really not hard at all to avoid the religious elements) that has provided countless people w/ the courage & support to abstain long term. My brother was in attendance at a meeting and one of the long-time attendees whom he'd stereotyped as a dullard upper class housewife began to speak. He was shocked (and pleasantly surprised) to learn she was one of the nationally recognized, pre-eminent gay rights attorneys working in their city. And had an amazing story to tell of how she got to where she was in spite of the disease. But the underlying sentiment was that she wouldn't have been there to tell the story w/o AA. FWIW.
Agree w/ bhowie wholeheartedly. If this person gets him/herself into AA, is put off by it's "cult" like nature, then fine, leave. But the reality this is a fantastic program (and it's really not hard at all to avoid the religious elements) that has provided countless people w/ the courage & support to abstain long term. My brother was in attendance at a meeting and one of the long-time attendees whom he'd stereotyped as a dullard upper class housewife began to speak. He was shocked (and pleasantly surprised) to learn she was one of the nationally recognized, pre-eminent gay rights attorneys working in their city. And had an amazing story to tell of how she got to where she was in spite of the disease. But the underlying sentiment was that she wouldn't have been there to tell the story w/o AA. FWIW.
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