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News & ArtsSaturday, November 21, 2009
Health / Politics The Democrats Have 60 Votes in the Senate for Health Care Reform
Posted by Jonathan Golob on Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 11:38 AM
With Senator Lincoln's agreement resulting in the magic number of sixty, the Senate's version of the health care reform bill will proceed to debate—a key step.
This version, like the House bill that passed earlier, contains a public option. The senate's bill allows states to opt-out of the public option.
Lieberman, the ass, has stated he will not vote for any bill containing a public option. He has agreed to vote to open, but not close, debate on the bill—helping Reid achieve the sixty votes he needed today.
2
Everyone should keep in mind that this is only the vote to open debate on the bill. There will also be a vote to close the debate, which will also require 60 votes. That one will be a much more difficult vote, and some of the "yes" votes today will almost certainly be "no" votes when that time comes.
Don't get too excited yet.
Don't get too excited yet.
3
This is good news. It doesn't go near far enough. But any improvement is improvement.
Health care? Check. Economy looking up? Check. Middle East at least no worse than it was in the days of the Wheelcheney? Check.
Maybe now the Administration will take the lead on some of those issues it's been dragging its feet on. Keep your fingers crossed.
Health care? Check. Economy looking up? Check. Middle East at least no worse than it was in the days of the Wheelcheney? Check.
Maybe now the Administration will take the lead on some of those issues it's been dragging its feet on. Keep your fingers crossed.
4
Where's the 10 or 15 posts by that anonymous poster saying "they won't ever bring one out" or "it won't make it to the house floor" or "it won't pass the house" or "they won't get enough votes for debate"?
6
This, I think, is a sign that Lieberman is facing pressure from his supporters to cooperate. The insurance companies are losing. This is a hopeful indication things are changing for the better.
7
I'm really hoping the Dems have a Scazzofavin' Republican Senator in their pocket. Lieberman just wants attention.
I can't believe this guy would have been our vice president years ago had everything gone fairly in the 2000 prez election.
I can't believe this guy would have been our vice president years ago had everything gone fairly in the 2000 prez election.
9
Yeah! Now, all you 20-something year old dipshit baristas, now you have to buy health insurance!
LMAO, they're gonna squeal like piggies.
LMAO, they're gonna squeal like piggies.
10
Apparently the Senators don't think there is anything wrong with the American Health Care/Insurance system. It's being fought every step of the way. What is it that the American people see that the Senators do not?
11
@10:
I don't think the American people see something that some senators don't. But some senators do see huge, huge, huge contributions from insurance and medical corporations that we, the American people, do not.
Basically, those senators are simply doing what they are paid to do. Bravo, BTW, to Al Franken this morning. His address ROCKED!
I don't think the American people see something that some senators don't. But some senators do see huge, huge, huge contributions from insurance and medical corporations that we, the American people, do not.
Basically, those senators are simply doing what they are paid to do. Bravo, BTW, to Al Franken this morning. His address ROCKED!
12
Lieberman is such a dillweed. After the midterms when we get (rightfully) spanked for not accomplishing anything after two years in charge, we should force him to switch parties so we know how many votes we REALLY have. A majority on paper is worthless if it isn't backed by action in the form of votes.
13
@4
@5
you girls are thinking of someone else-
I am surprised the Dems have had so much trouble getting it this far.
But if it passes their plan will be a huge disappointment to the naive hipsters who think it will solve their problems and a huge budgetary disaster- I'm just worried they won't get it going in time for the dookie to hit the fan before the 2012 elections...
@5
you girls are thinking of someone else-
I am surprised the Dems have had so much trouble getting it this far.
But if it passes their plan will be a huge disappointment to the naive hipsters who think it will solve their problems and a huge budgetary disaster- I'm just worried they won't get it going in time for the dookie to hit the fan before the 2012 elections...
14
13: I think this may be the first time someone called Americans who support broad health care reform "hipsters." That word has some fucking mileage.
15
13: BTW, anything at this point is better than the Republican "solution."
The Republican solution to all environmental, economic, social, health care, infrastructure problems: tax cuts.
The Republican solution to all environmental, economic, social, health care, infrastructure problems: tax cuts.
16
Lieberman is like the Democrat's deranged ex-girlfriend who never stops calling, stalking them on Facebook, texting at four in the morning.
He won't go away and he's pure poison.
The Dems need to pimp-slap him into next week. What a complete jackass.
He won't go away and he's pure poison.
The Dems need to pimp-slap him into next week. What a complete jackass.
17
The weird confidence of the pro-reform D senators (PRDS) who said they'd get the 60 votes. Maybe the PRDS also weren't sure and calculated they would benefit short-term in interviews by acting like they had their party under control and were responsible for any positive outcomes, while long-term any anti-reform D senators who prevented the 60 votes would look like the bigger bastards.
Nate Silver said the anti-reform D senators (tARDS) weren't united in a bloc as in the House, and were easier to deal with because each opposed reform for different reasons.
Nate Silver said the anti-reform D senators (tARDS) weren't united in a bloc as in the House, and were easier to deal with because each opposed reform for different reasons.
18
I am seriously considering building a nice pine box in my workshed, stealing a hearse, driving up there to the DC, putting the lieberbaggage in the box, and driving him around and around at an obscene rate of speed while playing Repo: The Genetic Opera at high volume.
19
It's pathetic how scared Reid is of the filibuster.
This is a motion to open debate, for God's sake. If it fails, make sure that's the message that gets out--"REPUBLICANS REFUSE TO DEBATE!" Hell, make them actually filibuster the damned thing if they want to, and make sure the American peoplke know who the hell is doing it.
And ditto to all the Lieberman hate above.
This is a motion to open debate, for God's sake. If it fails, make sure that's the message that gets out--"REPUBLICANS REFUSE TO DEBATE!" Hell, make them actually filibuster the damned thing if they want to, and make sure the American peoplke know who the hell is doing it.
And ditto to all the Lieberman hate above.
21
This is one small step towards a massive traditionalist backlash in 2010, and a Palin landslide in 2012.
That is, of course, if Hussein allows those elections to go forward, and if he doesn't, the USA I fought for in Vietnam has met it's oblivion.
That is, of course, if Hussein allows those elections to go forward, and if he doesn't, the USA I fought for in Vietnam has met it's oblivion.
22
Lord Basil, it warms my heart every time I see that you're still alive & posting. You're like hot macaroni & cheese on a cold November evening.
23
21: Yeah, that great white, racist, sexist, apple pie fucking America is lost forever. It's too bad killing slopes didn't save it.
24
16
You've got it backwards.
Lieberman is the boyfriend who treats the girl like shit but she keeps coming back for more. The Democrats, oh yeah, they're the pathetic needy bitch...
You've got it backwards.
Lieberman is the boyfriend who treats the girl like shit but she keeps coming back for more. The Democrats, oh yeah, they're the pathetic needy bitch...
25
14
there is an overeducated underskilled minimally employed class of hipsters out there who think they are going to get something for free out of this deal. when they finally see the details (and the price tag) they are going to shit themselves.
there is an overeducated underskilled minimally employed class of hipsters out there who think they are going to get something for free out of this deal. when they finally see the details (and the price tag) they are going to shit themselves.
26
15
damn them all for daring suggest hardworking Americans keep what they have earned- damn them all to hell!
the current system stinks sure but it is possible to make it WORSE - wait and see- that is what the Democraps will do.
damn them all for daring suggest hardworking Americans keep what they have earned- damn them all to hell!
the current system stinks sure but it is possible to make it WORSE - wait and see- that is what the Democraps will do.
28
The Senate should start reading Obama's poll numbers.
"Health care" as an issue is a deadweight.
Any pol foolish enough to waste time on the nightly news with this sinker is going to go down in 2010.
The Senate should start reading Obama's poll numbers.
"Health care" as an issue is a deadweight.
Any pol foolish enough to waste time on the nightly news with this sinker is going to go down in 2010.
30
@25 ftw
it's like those dipshits who spend two weeks in France and talk about the 'free' healthcare they got.
Hey hipster Batista dipshits, what's it gonna feel like when 10-20% of your shitty paychecks vanishes? Now I'm happy, I'm sick and tired of subsidizing your healthcare.
it's like those dipshits who spend two weeks in France and talk about the 'free' healthcare they got.
Hey hipster Batista dipshits, what's it gonna feel like when 10-20% of your shitty paychecks vanishes? Now I'm happy, I'm sick and tired of subsidizing your healthcare.
32
#14: the reform has nothing to do with the hipsters dipshit. Believe it or not, not every pro-reform person on here is an uninsured barista. Some of us actually make a lot of money, maybe more than you do. Where do you get your strawmen? The 99 Cent store?
33
we are all pro-reform
the difference is that some of us are willing to hold out for reform that actually improves the health care system
the difference is that some of us are willing to hold out for reform that actually improves the health care system
34
"the reform has nothing to do with the hipsters dipshit. "
Actually it does because those of us with insurance have been subsidizing those without. This bill forces hipster dip shits to buy insurance; you know, college educated, underemployed, white middle class 'progressives' who seem to think govt healthcare will mean it's free.
Granted it'll be cheaper than my family's plan, because they have dead end jobs, but they're still going to pay. Now I know a lot of hipster dipshits and baristas, and most do think government healthcare will = free health care. Just wait til they loose another 10-20% of their pay checks to get required insurance...they are gonna shit.
Actually it does because those of us with insurance have been subsidizing those without. This bill forces hipster dip shits to buy insurance; you know, college educated, underemployed, white middle class 'progressives' who seem to think govt healthcare will mean it's free.
Granted it'll be cheaper than my family's plan, because they have dead end jobs, but they're still going to pay. Now I know a lot of hipster dipshits and baristas, and most do think government healthcare will = free health care. Just wait til they loose another 10-20% of their pay checks to get required insurance...they are gonna shit.
35
when Liberals squeal "single payer" they mean "the government providing it for free".
Obama has been keeping the details secret because when the Liberals see what and who the plan actually covers and how much they are going to have to pay they are going to sit down and cry.
you think the Liberals are disappointed with Obama now?...
just wait
Obama has been keeping the details secret because when the Liberals see what and who the plan actually covers and how much they are going to have to pay they are going to sit down and cry.
you think the Liberals are disappointed with Obama now?...
just wait
36
It's Saturday night, troll. Go do something out in meatspace. It will be healthy for you to talk to people while stare down your nose at them for not being able to afford healthcare.
37
Here's my plan.
80 percent of the people get free health care.
The other 20 percent have to run around and tag someone from the "Healther" group. When they tag them, they say "I Got Your Healthcare" and then immediately (using a combination of Google Maps, Android phones and Cloud Computing), the health care coverage goes to the tagger.
The taggee is then vulnerable...if he doesn't tag someone else and he gets run over, then his savings is in jeopardy!
Here's my plan.
80 percent of the people get free health care.
The other 20 percent have to run around and tag someone from the "Healther" group. When they tag them, they say "I Got Your Healthcare" and then immediately (using a combination of Google Maps, Android phones and Cloud Computing), the health care coverage goes to the tagger.
The taggee is then vulnerable...if he doesn't tag someone else and he gets run over, then his savings is in jeopardy!
38
Lots of disjointed comments, indicative of the collapse of hope, unity and change.
1. the bill is a big step forward but it's only about 15% of what real heatlh care reform is.
2. yes I got free medical treatment in France. It was nice. They don't discriminate against aliens. They also have a nice standard of living 6 weeks vacation, density that's nice, transit that's nice, food that's nice, they pay a lot more of college costs, have sweeter unemployment benefits, and for those w kids you get money for having kids. It's great. They pay for these things via taxes as of course there is no free lunch. They have democracy and freedom, too. The right wing idjits in this thread seem to not get it; nationalized systems work pretty well, esp. in conjunction with a partially capitalist economy and elections, etc. Right wingers, you are slowing down our progress as a nation and taking us down the route of Argentina so that in a few years we will all have $14 an hour jobs building e cars for India and China. Go away, and shut up, you ignorant fools.
3. AS stated many times, yawn, the conservadems are the problem. If you read the NYT it says so. Righta again, ho hum. Lincoln and Landrieu are very clear: they aren't for the final bill if it has any public option.
So, um, together with Lieberass, where we gonna get those 60 votes to close off debate?
Let's hold off the partying til we pass the bill, ok?
4. Solutions: water it down even more. YUck.
Or, Obama get visceral and stop being above it all and still try to go to Arkansas and Louisiana and change the on the ground politics in those states, well in fact, now it's getting a little late for that, he blew it by not doing that earlier. And we as progressives blew it by not fucking counting votes and realizing yup we still got the 60 vote rule in the dumbass senate with its dumbass rules the democrats support every two years, how stupid can you get, so to work around that gee duh we need 60 votes so gee mebbe oughter try to get them?
Third solution: Democrats don't need 60 votes IF: they MAKE the Republicans actually filibuster. The spectable of GOPsters on TV for two or three weeks will be high theater....Dems can say they are blocking reofrm...imagine the great speeches by Obama denouncing this...imagine Obama getting MAD for America...try it, he just might find it inside himself....then the mood in America changes if the LEFT GETS MAD because the right isn't letting us have a VOTE.... this would still be difficult.
Bit instead of this kind of assertiveness what we see is a bunch of dems dnc ofa and Obama still running scared of the right, still begging and pleading to Licoln and Landrieu, instead of being assertive and going around them to make the freaking case for reform. Of course, the case is really hard to make when you're selling a watered down confusing hodge podge jumle of crap that no nation has ever tried to call reform before.
Medicare For All. How simple that would have been, plus saying you're god dammed right it's socialistic.
More...
1. the bill is a big step forward but it's only about 15% of what real heatlh care reform is.
2. yes I got free medical treatment in France. It was nice. They don't discriminate against aliens. They also have a nice standard of living 6 weeks vacation, density that's nice, transit that's nice, food that's nice, they pay a lot more of college costs, have sweeter unemployment benefits, and for those w kids you get money for having kids. It's great. They pay for these things via taxes as of course there is no free lunch. They have democracy and freedom, too. The right wing idjits in this thread seem to not get it; nationalized systems work pretty well, esp. in conjunction with a partially capitalist economy and elections, etc. Right wingers, you are slowing down our progress as a nation and taking us down the route of Argentina so that in a few years we will all have $14 an hour jobs building e cars for India and China. Go away, and shut up, you ignorant fools.
3. AS stated many times, yawn, the conservadems are the problem. If you read the NYT it says so. Righta again, ho hum. Lincoln and Landrieu are very clear: they aren't for the final bill if it has any public option.
So, um, together with Lieberass, where we gonna get those 60 votes to close off debate?
Let's hold off the partying til we pass the bill, ok?
4. Solutions: water it down even more. YUck.
Or, Obama get visceral and stop being above it all and still try to go to Arkansas and Louisiana and change the on the ground politics in those states, well in fact, now it's getting a little late for that, he blew it by not doing that earlier. And we as progressives blew it by not fucking counting votes and realizing yup we still got the 60 vote rule in the dumbass senate with its dumbass rules the democrats support every two years, how stupid can you get, so to work around that gee duh we need 60 votes so gee mebbe oughter try to get them?
Third solution: Democrats don't need 60 votes IF: they MAKE the Republicans actually filibuster. The spectable of GOPsters on TV for two or three weeks will be high theater....Dems can say they are blocking reofrm...imagine the great speeches by Obama denouncing this...imagine Obama getting MAD for America...try it, he just might find it inside himself....then the mood in America changes if the LEFT GETS MAD because the right isn't letting us have a VOTE.... this would still be difficult.
Bit instead of this kind of assertiveness what we see is a bunch of dems dnc ofa and Obama still running scared of the right, still begging and pleading to Licoln and Landrieu, instead of being assertive and going around them to make the freaking case for reform. Of course, the case is really hard to make when you're selling a watered down confusing hodge podge jumle of crap that no nation has ever tried to call reform before.
Medicare For All. How simple that would have been, plus saying you're god dammed right it's socialistic.
39
Conservatives and Republicans are now officially the worst people in the United States, not quite at the nadir of neon-nazis, but slowly getting there. The fact that almost every anti-healh reform post in here is obviously from one person says it all.
40
Healthcare is free in France? Wow, and I thought the reason marginal taxes in Frane for the middle class start at 40% was free.
And yes, u get great benefits in France, what with permanent 10-15% unemployment and semi permenant riots in the banlieu. Did I mention you'd also be taxed a minimum of 40% plus 20% sales tax? Maybe this is why 600,000 young French have fled to the UK to start businesses and find work.
And yes, u get great benefits in France, what with permanent 10-15% unemployment and semi permenant riots in the banlieu. Did I mention you'd also be taxed a minimum of 40% plus 20% sales tax? Maybe this is why 600,000 young French have fled to the UK to start businesses and find work.
41
The UK has more of a state-run system than France does. But to you, the fact that French people emigrate ot the UK is somehow an argument against state-run health care. You've just made an argument against a public-private system (France's) by comparing it unfavorably to a country that has a public UHC system. So basically you're arguing against health care reform by propping up a country with socialized medicine.
You know, you could at least make the effort to be consistent, instead of grabbing at whatever straw is closest. Basically you'll argue against anything anyone right of center says because you're an ideologcial tool. Reading your posts is like reading a fever dream or a hallucination.
To you, facts and theories are just words to be employed in sophistic arguments. All that matters to you is your team. At least people on the left are critical of the Democrats. You Republicans will bend over backwards to appease your masters.
You know, you could at least make the effort to be consistent, instead of grabbing at whatever straw is closest. Basically you'll argue against anything anyone right of center says because you're an ideologcial tool. Reading your posts is like reading a fever dream or a hallucination.
To you, facts and theories are just words to be employed in sophistic arguments. All that matters to you is your team. At least people on the left are critical of the Democrats. You Republicans will bend over backwards to appease your masters.
42
actually, girls, the gop can't lose this one.
the democraps plan is bad. and will be ruinously expensive. and will be super unpopular if ever actually enacted, especially with the liberals who have longed most for it.
if the democraps pass it it will blow up in their face. like a fresh pile of cowshit with an m-80 stuck in it...
if the democraps don't pass it they will be seen as failures the liberals will be pissed and disheartened and the gop will be perceived to be awesome and strong and competent and obama will be even more afraid of them.
either way the gop wins.
the democraps plan is bad. and will be ruinously expensive. and will be super unpopular if ever actually enacted, especially with the liberals who have longed most for it.
if the democraps pass it it will blow up in their face. like a fresh pile of cowshit with an m-80 stuck in it...
if the democraps don't pass it they will be seen as failures the liberals will be pissed and disheartened and the gop will be perceived to be awesome and strong and competent and obama will be even more afraid of them.
either way the gop wins.
43
Some facts:
The US government today spends more on health care than France or England. In fact, the US government spends more than all but a few countries (poor Luxembourg).
According to the World Health Organization, the US government spends $3076 per capita on health care, the UK spends $2457 (in PPP$) and France spends $2727. In both cases that's about 8% of their gross domestic product. The US government also spends about 8%. We just manage to fail at health care so completely that we spend another 8% on top of that for private insurance.
Anyone who claims other countries are paying more in taxes for health care is a filthy liar. If we had England or France's government run universal health systems, we'd get a tax cut.
The US government today spends more on health care than France or England. In fact, the US government spends more than all but a few countries (poor Luxembourg).
According to the World Health Organization, the US government spends $3076 per capita on health care, the UK spends $2457 (in PPP$) and France spends $2727. In both cases that's about 8% of their gross domestic product. The US government also spends about 8%. We just manage to fail at health care so completely that we spend another 8% on top of that for private insurance.
Anyone who claims other countries are paying more in taxes for health care is a filthy liar. If we had England or France's government run universal health systems, we'd get a tax cut.
44
Shame you ain't gonna get England (or did you mean the UK?) or France's system with high taxes under Obama the centrist.
But you could always move to France and join the rioting, unemployed masses in St Denis.
But you could always move to France and join the rioting, unemployed masses in St Denis.
45
JMS do you think these millions of French leaving France to find better opportunities are moving to the UK for healthcare or because the UK is not burdened with crippling work rules and taxes that destroy small business and entrepreneurship in France? It took the New Labor to finally hammer the nail into the British unions, the French can only hope Sarkozy will smash France's unions that suck people dry.
Or maybe you haven't noticed the shift to the center in Europe and away from crackpot socialism?
Or maybe you haven't noticed the shift to the center in Europe and away from crackpot socialism?
46
Oh, and among the millions leaving France in the great brain drain, are 250,000 who have moved to the US since 2002. Of course, they tend to be wealthier, entrepreneurial French but what country needs those kinds of people, eh?
47
@42: So basically the Democrats sweeping electoral victories in 2008 were the best thing to happen to the GOP because someday a backlash might lead to the GOP regaining some of that lost ground? Fascinating. So winning is losing and losing is winning.
You're a Chicago Cubs fan, aren't you?
You're a Chicago Cubs fan, aren't you?
48
Hey Looney Left, why not stop pretending that you're different people on here. Your different aliases aren't fooling anyone. K thx.
You have entirey too much time on your hands.
You have entirey too much time on your hands.
49
Hey right-wingers - the more anger I see in your posts, the more you seem like a cornered animal. The Dems, who by reports don't seem to have the brass ones to fight, need to realize that their bluff is being called, and should broom-handle this legislation through to get it to the President's desk. If this were the repukes' fight, they'd do every last thing, however dirty, to get their way.
I second # 38 - you right-wing knuckle-draggers are bringing this country down. EVOLVE, for chrissakes.
I second # 38 - you right-wing knuckle-draggers are bringing this country down. EVOLVE, for chrissakes.
50
Are u kiddin? I support this bill, there's no single payer, no government takeover. So 5% of Americans will get state supported insurance...whoop de doo...that ain't Socialism. That's centrism.
However, I will love watching all the 20 yr old white, college educated activist types being forced to buy health insurance at last. I'm tired of them getting a free ride. Better start figuring out how to live with your iPhone dipshits.
However, I will love watching all the 20 yr old white, college educated activist types being forced to buy health insurance at last. I'm tired of them getting a free ride. Better start figuring out how to live with your iPhone dipshits.
51
Lord Basil... instead of calling him Hussien why don't you grow some eggs and call him what you really want... a ni@@er. If he was lilly white and his dad born in Ireland not one of you racists would be calling him a terrorist or doubting his American heritage. I have ended many a friendship before, during and after this election. Good riddance those racist @holes are out of my life, and thanks to Obama for beating them out of the bushes for me or I never would have known.
Oh yeah... Go Palin for the republican primaries. Obama will eat her for lunch!
Oh yeah... Go Palin for the republican primaries. Obama will eat her for lunch!
52
Hey Looney Left:
I said "They pay for these things via taxes as of course there is no free lunch. " So don't like and say I said health care is free.
You rpicture of France as mired in economic woes and riots is false. It is far, far more dangerous to walk around big US cities than to walk around in france. If you had the culture to have gone there, you might know this. People walk around in Paris all the time and night and it's safer there, than here.
People move to the UK. Noted. woo hoo. People in the UK retire in France, too, in fact they are so rich in the UK -- whre they have actual socialized medicine -- in the last 30 years large no.s of English have bought property in France.
God, how awful isn't it.
And in general those nations with socialized medicine are equal to us -- Canada is still a few hundred short in gdp per capita -- or just a tad below us.
You sound ignorant and obtuse for not knowing this. You seem to think the USA is tthis econoimc powerhouse and we're far above everyone else. Wow. Really stupid and uninformed.
Trying to make the argument that socialized health care doesn't work is pretty tough when you then have to explain away the economic success of Japan Germany France the EC in general Ireland UK scandieland ozzieland kiwiland but yes, if you want to try to paint those nations as some kind of darfur economic wasteland, go ahead and argue that.
but it would only show you're insane, literally unable to deal with the fact that you are just wrong.
Hey, I get it if you get all warm and cuddly if you get to pay an insurer intead of a govt. for health care... or if another 10 points in the marginal tax rates drives you insane and you're totally happy to live in a country with huge unsafe areas, medical bankruptcies, people who can't get to college for eco. reasons, and little or no vacations. Goody for you. but when you start to claim places like france are some kind of substandard hell hole you're just showing you're an ignoramus or you are one of those idiots who doesn't know anything about the rest of the world.
"cervelles d'hot dog" is the term I believe.
A bientot--
More...
I said "They pay for these things via taxes as of course there is no free lunch. " So don't like and say I said health care is free.
You rpicture of France as mired in economic woes and riots is false. It is far, far more dangerous to walk around big US cities than to walk around in france. If you had the culture to have gone there, you might know this. People walk around in Paris all the time and night and it's safer there, than here.
People move to the UK. Noted. woo hoo. People in the UK retire in France, too, in fact they are so rich in the UK -- whre they have actual socialized medicine -- in the last 30 years large no.s of English have bought property in France.
God, how awful isn't it.
And in general those nations with socialized medicine are equal to us -- Canada is still a few hundred short in gdp per capita -- or just a tad below us.
You sound ignorant and obtuse for not knowing this. You seem to think the USA is tthis econoimc powerhouse and we're far above everyone else. Wow. Really stupid and uninformed.
Trying to make the argument that socialized health care doesn't work is pretty tough when you then have to explain away the economic success of Japan Germany France the EC in general Ireland UK scandieland ozzieland kiwiland but yes, if you want to try to paint those nations as some kind of darfur economic wasteland, go ahead and argue that.
but it would only show you're insane, literally unable to deal with the fact that you are just wrong.
Hey, I get it if you get all warm and cuddly if you get to pay an insurer intead of a govt. for health care... or if another 10 points in the marginal tax rates drives you insane and you're totally happy to live in a country with huge unsafe areas, medical bankruptcies, people who can't get to college for eco. reasons, and little or no vacations. Goody for you. but when you start to claim places like france are some kind of substandard hell hole you're just showing you're an ignoramus or you are one of those idiots who doesn't know anything about the rest of the world.
"cervelles d'hot dog" is the term I believe.
A bientot--
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