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News & ArtsMonday, February 1, 2010
Politics The Obvious—And Impossible—Response to the AFA's Superbowl Abortion Ad
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 11:51 AM
Tim Tebow's mom didn't follow her doctor's advice and chose not to have an abortion and the baby she didn't abort grew up to be a sports hero—and a damn good looking one at that—and now Tim and Tim's mom are appearing in an ad that urges all women everywhere to make the same choice that Tim Tebow's mom did—to have the baby—because, hey, look how wonderfully everything turned out for Tim and his mom when she choose life. So everybody should make the choice Tim's mom did and choose life. (The ad is being financed, it should be noted, by a political/religious organization that is campaigning to deny women who aren't Tim's mom the right to do what Tim's mom did and make a choice.)
For the record: defenders of choice support the choice Tim's mom made and believe that all women should have the same right to choose even if some women are going to make a different choice. Now here's what's so maddening about this ad and this controversy: the obvious response ad could never be produced.
There are women out there who ignored the advice of their doctors and chose not to have abortions and... their children did not grow up to be sports stars. The children they chose to carry—perhaps because they'd been exposed to simplistic "choose life!" propaganda that presented them only with best-case-scenario outcomes (your son could grow up to be a sports star!)— suffered short, miserable, harrowingly painful existences. Or their children survived thanks to medical interventions that didn't exist a generation ago but their needs took enormous financial and emotional tolls on their families, interventions and expenses that hardly seemed worthwhile given the child's low-to-non-existant quality of life.
There are women out there who regret not aborting on their doctors' recommendations. But even if you locate one of these women and she was willing to look into a camera and say, "I made the wrong choice. I should've listened to my doctors and not listened to Tim Tebow's mom. I should have gotten an abortion," that's not an ad that CBS would ever agree to air.
1
From my understanding of the Tim Tebow situation, it was his mother's life that was at risk, and that was the reason why the doctor was advising an abortion (they were expecting the fetus to die in the womb because of an infection). And that, is why I'm so creeped out by this ad. The ad's message is, even if your life is at risk, you should still never have an abortion.
So, the most obvious response ad to the anti-abortion ad would be a mother whose doctor advised her to get an abortion for health reasons, she didn't, and then she died.
Note: as Dan said, I completely respect the choice of a woman who does want to risk her life for her fetus. A mentor of mine when I was a teenager did just that (she had breast cancer while pregnant and delayed chemo until after the birth -- she and the baby both survived). But, I find the idea that every woman should have no option but to risk her life in this type of situation very upsetting.
So, the most obvious response ad to the anti-abortion ad would be a mother whose doctor advised her to get an abortion for health reasons, she didn't, and then she died.
Note: as Dan said, I completely respect the choice of a woman who does want to risk her life for her fetus. A mentor of mine when I was a teenager did just that (she had breast cancer while pregnant and delayed chemo until after the birth -- she and the baby both survived). But, I find the idea that every woman should have no option but to risk her life in this type of situation very upsetting.
3
This ad reminds me of an infuriatingly stupid e-mail that was going around in the 90s describing a syphilitic, poverty stricken, mother of an already large family, and posing the question should she terminate her most recent pregnancy. The punch line was something like " Oh snap! If you said yes you just aborted Beethoven!" As if, where that to have been the case, we'd all be sitting around going" Gosh! I sure could go for a little Moonlight Sonata right now! Too bad Beethoven was never born!" No. We would not. Because he would not have been born. So we would not miss something that was never created. Gah!
4
Actually, the entire ad is based on a lie.
Tim Tebow was born in the Philippines. It was, and still is, completely illegal to have an abortion in the Philippines for any reason, including rape, incest, or health of the mother. A doctor could be jailed for even suggesting it. A woman would be jailed for asking about it.
So this supposed choice she made could never have happened when and where Tim Tebow was born. The whole ad is based on a bullshit story that isn't true.
Next time, right-wingers, at least try to find a credible story.
Tim Tebow was born in the Philippines. It was, and still is, completely illegal to have an abortion in the Philippines for any reason, including rape, incest, or health of the mother. A doctor could be jailed for even suggesting it. A woman would be jailed for asking about it.
So this supposed choice she made could never have happened when and where Tim Tebow was born. The whole ad is based on a bullshit story that isn't true.
Next time, right-wingers, at least try to find a credible story.
5
My understanding of the Tebow situation is that at that time in the Philippines ALL abortions were illegal and both she and the doctor faced a 6 year prison sentence. I find it hard to believe a Filipino doctor would be willing to risk losing his license (and ability to make a decent living) at best and his freedom at worse for a foreign missionary of a different religion (most Filipinos are either Catholic or Muslim).
Gloria Allred is threatening to sue CBS for running this ad if they do not talk about the illegality of abortions at that time.
As a point of fact, it is nice that Mrs Tebow got to decide to keep her child, regardless of the circumstances of the choice. That's all that those of us who are pro-choice want.
But like all right-wing memes, it sounds good until you lift the rock...
Gloria Allred is threatening to sue CBS for running this ad if they do not talk about the illegality of abortions at that time.
As a point of fact, it is nice that Mrs Tebow got to decide to keep her child, regardless of the circumstances of the choice. That's all that those of us who are pro-choice want.
But like all right-wing memes, it sounds good until you lift the rock...
7
On the one hand I am a little sad that the obvious counter example could never be shown on TV but that is how it works. The fact that you can't or won't post ridiculous emotional ads in favor of choice for women is a good thing. It helps me sleep at night knowing that women have choice because society decided together that they get control of their own bodies, not because some sports star granted his blessing choice over them.
8
#4, I hope you are not surprised that these people lie. After all, these are the same folk who insinuate that the murder of George Tiller was justifiable. If murder's OK, how's a little lie gonna hurt, hmm?
9
yeah, i want there to be an ad where a husband or child testifies about how their wife/mother died because she insisted on having a child that their doctor told them to abort.
10
The sister of a good friend of mine was advised not to get pregnant because of the risks she faced (due to a childhood illness she had miraculously survived). She chose to have a baby anyway and died as a result when her son was five. It was a very "Steel Magnolias" scene as it was described to me. She was in the hospital on a heart lung machine, the family gathered around her, she made her goodbyes, and then the machine was turned off and she died.
I am happy that Tim Tebow survived. But he should know that everything doesn't always work out and that all stories do not have happy endings.
I am happy that Tim Tebow survived. But he should know that everything doesn't always work out and that all stories do not have happy endings.
11
Hey, for the record #9, I watched a woman die from cancer while she was pregnant---she wouldn't abort and the oncologists wouldn't treat her because she was pregnant. Baby was delivered prematurely as she started her final coma and died (like mom) a few hours later. Horrible, this choosing of death over life, but her choice to make.
13
As someone who works in Labor and Delivery, I am NOT looking forward to the mom who ignores sound medical advice and puts her life at risk because she watched this dumb ad.
14
There's still some time... If you guys want to do something about it, shoot a complaint: http://salsa.wiredforchange.com/o/1269/p…
As someone who has had an abortion... I'd club anybody over the head who would want to take my rights away.
As someone who has had an abortion... I'd club anybody over the head who would want to take my rights away.
15
@12 - I would have also accepted "the only thing that needs aborting is Tim Tebow's dream of playing in the NFL"
17
@16, No - it would have been impossible for her to have an abortion in the Philippines and since her son was born there, she obviously CHOSE to stay and have him. All women should have the same choice. That's my point, sorry if I'm not clear.
18
This reminds me of my annoyance with how even recent movies, like Knocked Up and Juno, show women with choices deciding to have the baby. The problem movie-wise is that the aftermath of a woman having an abortion doesn't really lend itself to a good movie plot, particularly for a comedy.
I should get on the ball and become a filmmaker in order to create this mystical post-abortion laughfest.
I should get on the ball and become a filmmaker in order to create this mystical post-abortion laughfest.
19
The premise of this ad is unconscionable.
The direction of this country brings me to tears. I fear for my someday daughter's future.
The direction of this country brings me to tears. I fear for my someday daughter's future.
21
Perhaps CBS would never air the hypothetical ad you suggest. But it would never get that far - I can't imagine a woman looking into a camera and saying, "I sure wish I had aborted little Chad before he had a chance to live his short miserable life," or "I sure wish I had aborted little Chad before going bankrupt because of the extremely expensive health care required to allow him to survive." Even if she thought so privately.
22
One type of response ad that might actually have a sliver of a chance of getting made (maybe not aired on national TV, but made) would be a woman thanking people like Dr. Tiller for their work. There are plenty of stories on A Heartbreaking Choice that are, literally, heartbreaking. Just the quotes on the left-hand side would be effective:
I initially thought I would "be brave" and continue my pregnancy. But I came to realize that ultimately it wasn't about how strong I could be, how deeply I wanted this baby or what important lessons he could teach me. It was about what he would experience in his short life. Given his diagnosis, he would have known only suffering. As his mother, I couldn't allow that to happen.
~ A mother at peace
We felt that if our daughter had been in a car accident and was on life support with the same internal injuries, we would not keep her on life support and let her suffer. This child deserved the same dignity."
~ A grieving mom
23
No, they never would show the response ad. I remember a similar situation several years back with advertisements for some kind of pregnancy test. They produced ads for women who were pregnant and happy about it, not pregnant and happy about it, and not pregnant and upset about it, but of course they could never do an ad where the woman was pregnant and upset about it.
24
Isn't it possible to find a grieving family of a woman who decided not to abort and died as a result?
25
Science is so advanced in these days. And life is so precious ........
"There are women out there who ignored the advice of their doctors and chose not to have abortions and... their children did not grow up to be sports stars."
Every life not just those of sport stars, why would anyone want to deny them a chance to experience the same wonders they have experienced, is something hard to understand. The option to decide is there already it doesn't need air time. The chance to see what can come to be even out of difficult circumstances doesn't have much of a voice these days and it's refreshing that at least for a few minutes those who see the Superbowl will be able to see and hear what love of a mother allowed to be. It would be insulting to place in the Superbowl ads an opposing argument that would have never allow Tebow to be in this world.
"There are women out there who ignored the advice of their doctors and chose not to have abortions and... their children did not grow up to be sports stars."
Every life not just those of sport stars, why would anyone want to deny them a chance to experience the same wonders they have experienced, is something hard to understand. The option to decide is there already it doesn't need air time. The chance to see what can come to be even out of difficult circumstances doesn't have much of a voice these days and it's refreshing that at least for a few minutes those who see the Superbowl will be able to see and hear what love of a mother allowed to be. It would be insulting to place in the Superbowl ads an opposing argument that would have never allow Tebow to be in this world.
26
Oh, LC, nobody argued that Tebow shouldn't be allowed to be. I'm a Gator by birth after all! We just argue that Mother Tebow's choice is HER choice, and shouldn't be imposed on other women.
27
How about an ad where a pregnant teenager gets an abortion, goes to college, has a successful career, and then has kids? Then she says, "if I didn't have an abortion when I was young, I would have never been able to go to college and have a successful career. I may have been able to have that kid, but I wouldn't have been able to give her/him the life they deserved. Now that I have a good career, I can give the kids I do have now the life they deserve."
29
One can hope this will more open up the dialog about what is at stake here (e.g. social control of womankind through reproduction regulations), ultimately to teach people to understand that:
a. The option of abortion is always considered under complicated circumstances, and,
b. Trying to regard the abortion issue in simplistic terms is dangerous, and often lethal.
It sounds like the implication made by the Tebow commercial (I don't know, having not yet seen it) is that a woman's dangerous gestational anomaly for which abortion is recommended, somehow magically increases the chances of birthing a pro-sports star.
I wonder how many other pro-sports star's mothers lives were saved by abortion procedures before birthing them. I would bet a fresh cruller that, statistically, healthy births are more likely to become prodigies by far than complicated ones.
I bet those statistics, juxtaposed with the death statistics regarding mother Tebow's particular anomaly, would prove a telling counter argument.
a. The option of abortion is always considered under complicated circumstances, and,
b. Trying to regard the abortion issue in simplistic terms is dangerous, and often lethal.
It sounds like the implication made by the Tebow commercial (I don't know, having not yet seen it) is that a woman's dangerous gestational anomaly for which abortion is recommended, somehow magically increases the chances of birthing a pro-sports star.
I wonder how many other pro-sports star's mothers lives were saved by abortion procedures before birthing them. I would bet a fresh cruller that, statistically, healthy births are more likely to become prodigies by far than complicated ones.
I bet those statistics, juxtaposed with the death statistics regarding mother Tebow's particular anomaly, would prove a telling counter argument.
30
One can hope this will more open up the dialog about what is at stake here (e.g. social control of womankind through reproduction regulations), ultimately to teach people to understand that:
a. The option of abortion is always considered under complicated circumstances, and,
b. Trying to regard the abortion issue in simplistic terms is dangerous, and often lethal.
It sounds like the implication made by the Tebow commercial (I don't know, having not yet seen it) is that a woman's dangerous gestational anomaly for which abortion is recommended, somehow magically increases the chances of birthing a pro-sports star.
I wonder how many other pro-sports star's mothers lives were saved by abortion procedures before birthing them. I would bet a fresh cruller that, statistically, healthy births are more likely to become prodigies by far than complicated ones.
I bet those statistics, juxtaposed with the death statistics regarding mother Tebow's particular anomaly, would prove a telling counter argument.
a. The option of abortion is always considered under complicated circumstances, and,
b. Trying to regard the abortion issue in simplistic terms is dangerous, and often lethal.
It sounds like the implication made by the Tebow commercial (I don't know, having not yet seen it) is that a woman's dangerous gestational anomaly for which abortion is recommended, somehow magically increases the chances of birthing a pro-sports star.
I wonder how many other pro-sports star's mothers lives were saved by abortion procedures before birthing them. I would bet a fresh cruller that, statistically, healthy births are more likely to become prodigies by far than complicated ones.
I bet those statistics, juxtaposed with the death statistics regarding mother Tebow's particular anomaly, would prove a telling counter argument.
32
I heard Einstein's first wife had the rare chance to study physics, until she got pregnant. Einstein eventually abandoned them. The kid became schizophrenic. She lived with Einstein's schizophrenic son in poverty for decades until he beat her to death in her old age.
33
Uriel, you might want to read the piece in Slate
http://www.slate.com/id/2243218
According to Willeam Saletan, the problem wasn't that Tim had an anomaly but that there was a premature placental separation, an abruption. Mom declined to end the pregnancy, and so we have Tim.
This is a truly remarkable case---the outcomes for mom and babe in abruptions are generally so poor that even a Catholic hospital will allow an abortion---it's truly "save the life of the mother" time. We recently did a 20 week termination in a fine Catholic institution for this very problem (Mom was bleeding so much we were transfusing her and concerned she might bleed out---a pregnant woman can exsanguinate in a very brief time).
If this is true, if Pam Tebow had a chronic and unstable abruption, what she (and the ad) is saying is not "Choose Life" but " You Owe it to God and your Baby to Risk Death."
Wow. What incredible audacity. Is ANYONE in America willing to stomach that message? Let Pam stare down her own death and leaving her children motherless but how DARE she ask that of me or anyone else?
http://www.slate.com/id/2243218
According to Willeam Saletan, the problem wasn't that Tim had an anomaly but that there was a premature placental separation, an abruption. Mom declined to end the pregnancy, and so we have Tim.
This is a truly remarkable case---the outcomes for mom and babe in abruptions are generally so poor that even a Catholic hospital will allow an abortion---it's truly "save the life of the mother" time. We recently did a 20 week termination in a fine Catholic institution for this very problem (Mom was bleeding so much we were transfusing her and concerned she might bleed out---a pregnant woman can exsanguinate in a very brief time).
If this is true, if Pam Tebow had a chronic and unstable abruption, what she (and the ad) is saying is not "Choose Life" but " You Owe it to God and your Baby to Risk Death."
Wow. What incredible audacity. Is ANYONE in America willing to stomach that message? Let Pam stare down her own death and leaving her children motherless but how DARE she ask that of me or anyone else?
34
In reality, isn't this ad ultimately a pro-choice ad? Tim Tebow's mom got to make a choice - continue with the pregnancy or terminate it. That is all people on the pro-choice side of this debate want: that everyone have the same choice that Tim Tebow's mom had.
35
All that we really need to do in a pro-choice ad, is to draw the obvious connection between getting an abortion and choosing something like ... not being an organ donor, or choosing not to give blood whenever you can. Because the three are very similar. A person's right to life does not supercede another person's bodily autonomy -- period! If you're on death's door and need a bone marrow transfusion, they're not going to find the first person with the same bone marrow type as you and strap them down, forcing them to give a donation. You need consent, and without it, the person dies and the potential donor goes on their merry way. It is the exact same thing with abortion; people do not have any right to a non-consenting person's flesh, blood and fluids. We can draw connections from that standpoint. We need to work on making abortion look normal, and counter this whole notion that it's murder.
Maybe we can film a pro-bone marrow donation ad, or a pro-opting to be an organ donor ad. I mean, I am all for those things (I am an organ donor, for the record), but the fact is that those issues are not a hot topic, and we can easily branch out and hover the issue of abortion from there. We do not have to talk about abortion directly, just the central issues of abortion and bodily autonomy. Like I said, we should make an effort to normalize abortion. Additionally, we need to normalize the women that make the choice to have an abortion. Make sense?
Maybe we can film a pro-bone marrow donation ad, or a pro-opting to be an organ donor ad. I mean, I am all for those things (I am an organ donor, for the record), but the fact is that those issues are not a hot topic, and we can easily branch out and hover the issue of abortion from there. We do not have to talk about abortion directly, just the central issues of abortion and bodily autonomy. Like I said, we should make an effort to normalize abortion. Additionally, we need to normalize the women that make the choice to have an abortion. Make sense?
36
My problem with this whole thing is that people will actually be persuaded by ads like this to make their own choices.
I am a pro-life woman as far as morality goes, but I would never vote to make abortion illegal. Women will find a way to have an abortion if they want one, and it will lead to more women ending up sterile or dead because of unsafe practices. However, I will always encourage women in an unplanned situation, as long as their own lives are not at risk, to have the child and GIVE IT UP FOR ADOPTION. So many good parents are out there waiting to take care of your child!
To me, this point of this ad is not to say "abortion should be illegal" it is to say, "life has worth, we encourage you to remember this in making a tough decision."
It just makes me sad that, in the end, people will make choices based on what the rich man on TV says rather than assessing their own lives and making the decision that is best for them.
I am a pro-life woman as far as morality goes, but I would never vote to make abortion illegal. Women will find a way to have an abortion if they want one, and it will lead to more women ending up sterile or dead because of unsafe practices. However, I will always encourage women in an unplanned situation, as long as their own lives are not at risk, to have the child and GIVE IT UP FOR ADOPTION. So many good parents are out there waiting to take care of your child!
To me, this point of this ad is not to say "abortion should be illegal" it is to say, "life has worth, we encourage you to remember this in making a tough decision."
It just makes me sad that, in the end, people will make choices based on what the rich man on TV says rather than assessing their own lives and making the decision that is best for them.
37
@11
"Horrible, this choosing of death over life, but her choice to make."
A choice repeated 840,000 times a year in this country.
This choosing of death over life.
"Horrible".
"Horrible, this choosing of death over life, but her choice to make."
A choice repeated 840,000 times a year in this country.
This choosing of death over life.
"Horrible".
38
14
As someone who opposes abortion... I'd club anybody over the head who would want to take a babies life away.
If I didn't have a gun handy, that is.....
As someone who opposes abortion... I'd club anybody over the head who would want to take a babies life away.
If I didn't have a gun handy, that is.....
40
@35
"people do not have any right to a non-consenting person's flesh, blood and fluids"
So true.
So please ask the abortionist to keep his godamed bloodstained filthy hands off me.....
"people do not have any right to a non-consenting person's flesh, blood and fluids"
So true.
So please ask the abortionist to keep his godamed bloodstained filthy hands off me.....
41
@40: The key word there is "person." Not "fetus," not "troll," but "person."
So please keep your sensationalist nonsense off me.
So please keep your sensationalist nonsense off me.
42
Nazis didn't consider Jews to be "people".
Slave traders didn't consider Blacks to be "people". Just cargo.
Abortionist don't consider the not-yet-born to be "people". Just cells.
Slave traders didn't consider Blacks to be "people". Just cargo.
Abortionist don't consider the not-yet-born to be "people". Just cells.
43
41---this particular troll always shows up in these pro-choice threads. He thinks he's very witty with his rotating monikers and his Godwin arguments. Mostly he's fairly tiresome---it'd be very easy to program an emulator for him, because he never says anything new.
His lack of any awareness of irony or ambiguity is sad, and out of kindness I've stopped responding to him---hoping to spare him ridicule. You might wish to do the same. (nudge, nudge, wink, wink)
His lack of any awareness of irony or ambiguity is sad, and out of kindness I've stopped responding to him---hoping to spare him ridicule. You might wish to do the same. (nudge, nudge, wink, wink)
44
@32 ummm. where did you hear this BS? Einstein beat his first wife to death? that's ludicrous.
yes, one of his sons was schizophrenic... but what on earth is your point?
yes, one of his sons was schizophrenic... but what on earth is your point?
45
I was pretty bored with most of that, I was just about ready to hit the Back button...then the last paragraph had me howling.
47
44- I believe post 32 was saying the szchophrenic son had beaten her to death, as Einstein had been long gone by then.
49
I don't know ... I just don't think of people until they are alive. I consider the hormone wash that is pregnancy to be a hormone wash ... a moment of confusion. And more often than not, I see women make catastrophic life choices based on emotional indulgences when pregnant. I see women who are at their LEAST empathic for their own damn children especially when they are pregnant. And point a gun to most women's head, and they STILL won't give their baby up for adoption, regardless of empty their pockets are. I don't know why, it's just how people are wired.
And you know that there are some success stories out there, but the vast majority of them will fail! I won't begrudge a mother for making the pro-life choice, until I happen to be that child that never got to be a child ... and I didn't grow up to be Obama or a sports star.
Whatever, we all get by and do the best we can with what our parents provided for us, but I won't delude people and say that ALL of us accidents are going to grow up to Tim Tebow, or Michael Phelps, or Obama.
And if you do chose to have an abortion based on economic, medical, and social reality, and your conscious can't swallow it, well at least you suffer alone and not take innocent children with you.
Hell Loveschild, even YOU will attest that in Florida, teen pregnancy will be on the rise with the expectation that this bumper crop of fatherless children will grow up to be sports stars.
Yes, America has become that stupid.
And you know that there are some success stories out there, but the vast majority of them will fail! I won't begrudge a mother for making the pro-life choice, until I happen to be that child that never got to be a child ... and I didn't grow up to be Obama or a sports star.
Whatever, we all get by and do the best we can with what our parents provided for us, but I won't delude people and say that ALL of us accidents are going to grow up to Tim Tebow, or Michael Phelps, or Obama.
And if you do chose to have an abortion based on economic, medical, and social reality, and your conscious can't swallow it, well at least you suffer alone and not take innocent children with you.
Hell Loveschild, even YOU will attest that in Florida, teen pregnancy will be on the rise with the expectation that this bumper crop of fatherless children will grow up to be sports stars.
Yes, America has become that stupid.
50
I recently called out this particular iteration of Allegedly (@) who, indeed, does resort to dramatic hyperbole (The horror! The horror!) before going into Godwin territory. I've yet to see a rational argument come out of him, especially concerning the obstructionist-polarization of the stratagems used by him and his, or a decent justification of the frequency of deceit used by the access-denial front.
attitude devant, I did read the Invisible Dead article, and was was categorizing placental abruption as a subset of gestational anomaly, though I may have erred, being somewhat of a novice when it comes to the linguistics of natal medicine. But then again, I struggled with the differences between a draft problem, a design problem and a development problem‡.
My point remains the same: the Tebow miracle is going to be regarded by the 100IQ demographic as a superhero origins story, not realizing that (proverbial) reactor accidents, super-spider venom, solar flares and experimental serums make far more dead people than superheros.
Y'know, maybe a reality check this ain't the comics type message may be the way to go for a response message, say that of the tens of thousands of victims of the Chernobyl disaster, not one became the Incredible Hulk.
‡ Draft: An engineering flaw due to misreading the blueprints. Design: A flaw revealed by a difference between the simulated physics model and the real world. Development: A obstruction in the process between prototype and manufacturing.
attitude devant, I did read the Invisible Dead article, and was was categorizing placental abruption as a subset of gestational anomaly, though I may have erred, being somewhat of a novice when it comes to the linguistics of natal medicine. But then again, I struggled with the differences between a draft problem, a design problem and a development problem‡.
My point remains the same: the Tebow miracle is going to be regarded by the 100IQ demographic as a superhero origins story, not realizing that (proverbial) reactor accidents, super-spider venom, solar flares and experimental serums make far more dead people than superheros.
Y'know, maybe a reality check this ain't the comics type message may be the way to go for a response message, say that of the tens of thousands of victims of the Chernobyl disaster, not one became the Incredible Hulk.
‡ Draft: An engineering flaw due to misreading the blueprints. Design: A flaw revealed by a difference between the simulated physics model and the real world. Development: A obstruction in the process between prototype and manufacturing.
51
AprilShowers, I think the issues with the adoption solution are:
a. While there are plenty of families for beautiful white babies without health problems, there's a terrible dearth of families willing to adopt non-whites or children with significant health concerns. (And most abortions are provided for lower and lower-middle class often non-white women.) And...
b. Nine months of one's life, especially when that pregnancy owns you, can be a long, long time. Furthermore, pregnancy ages and weathers a woman, not all of which is reversible, even with a strong post-natal recuperation program (to which few have access). This is addressed by a thought experiment The Famous Violinist.
This is not to say women should not carry to term to let their babies be adopted out, but that they shouldn't be forced to do so in lieu of abortion access.
Because I have to say it before I step off my soapbox: the sovereignty problem, ergo, ectogenesis. Thank you.
a. While there are plenty of families for beautiful white babies without health problems, there's a terrible dearth of families willing to adopt non-whites or children with significant health concerns. (And most abortions are provided for lower and lower-middle class often non-white women.) And...
b. Nine months of one's life, especially when that pregnancy owns you, can be a long, long time. Furthermore, pregnancy ages and weathers a woman, not all of which is reversible, even with a strong post-natal recuperation program (to which few have access). This is addressed by a thought experiment The Famous Violinist.
This is not to say women should not carry to term to let their babies be adopted out, but that they shouldn't be forced to do so in lieu of abortion access.
Because I have to say it before I step off my soapbox: the sovereignty problem, ergo, ectogenesis. Thank you.
52
Well perhaps women who are convinced by this ad should be able to sue CBS if their kid grows up to be more like Ted Bundy than Tim Tebow. Ted's dad, by the way, was probably his grandpa and Focus on the Family agrees that Ted's mother should not have had a choice, which she didn't.
53
Oh and by the way, I have a serious issue with the stupid concept that women should risk thier lives so football stars can be born. Die for the superbowl ladies. Bring forth the players from your loins so America's guys can sit on their asses and be entertained. Tim Tebow is not better than women, even if they have had abortions.
54
Uriel, how's the novel?
The anomaly is not with Tim, but with the placenta, which, although it arose from the same pair of gametes as Tim, is NOT Tim. Yes, that's weird, but it's true, and I can NEVER figure out why all these life-begins-with-conception types ignore the placenta since IT began with conception too, but I digress.
In your classification this would be a development problem I think, as if the power cords had shorted out on the assembly line. ( I'm not sure I swallow your industrial classification, BTW, since nature is incredibly weird, much weirder than your model allows, but no matter...)
Anyway, I agree that the Tebow story will be seen as gooily transplendent---Risk Death, Reap an Olympian! or something like that, but this is America after all. Never give a sucker an even break, right?
And curtisp, always nice to see you and your wonderful avatar on a thread I'm reading.
The anomaly is not with Tim, but with the placenta, which, although it arose from the same pair of gametes as Tim, is NOT Tim. Yes, that's weird, but it's true, and I can NEVER figure out why all these life-begins-with-conception types ignore the placenta since IT began with conception too, but I digress.
In your classification this would be a development problem I think, as if the power cords had shorted out on the assembly line. ( I'm not sure I swallow your industrial classification, BTW, since nature is incredibly weird, much weirder than your model allows, but no matter...)
Anyway, I agree that the Tebow story will be seen as gooily transplendent---Risk Death, Reap an Olympian! or something like that, but this is America after all. Never give a sucker an even break, right?
And curtisp, always nice to see you and your wonderful avatar on a thread I'm reading.
55
65,000 words, and counting, of backstory, drivel and some pretty sweet ideas. For the moment, I'm developing graphics for the original card game (the card game and the novel take place in the same diegesis). My latest cool ideas:
~ How felines (genetically engineered 50kg sapient cats) regard humans, and why humans and felines might want to intermarry (yes, it's a controversy). Oh, and why felines still have silly pet names like Fluffball, Mittens and Mr. Whiskers.
~ The suffixes used by the Sapphic Hegemony on genderized terms. The male ones indicate military duty and degree of attachment (marital, servile or otherwise) to a woman.
~ Food that is commonly eaten within the fleet, usually consisting of hot cheesy goo in a pastry wrap or cold creamy goo in a pastry wrap.
My industrial examples were really about why a product couldn't be mass-produced, hence a development problem would be, for example, if a metal component was prone to frequent cracking during quenching, hence too many units had to be discarded and recast, or (another example) a component requires an odd-angled groove that can't be fabricated by machine (and is too expensive to groove each unit by hand).
In Tebow's case, the design works, but he slipped off the alignment rails during manufacture. He just got lucky and not only didn't jam the machine but passed QA specs. Most units that slip off the rails not only wind up misshapen (and unusable) but also break the machine and shut the factory down for repairs. And how far did I just carry this metaphor?
~ How felines (genetically engineered 50kg sapient cats) regard humans, and why humans and felines might want to intermarry (yes, it's a controversy). Oh, and why felines still have silly pet names like Fluffball, Mittens and Mr. Whiskers.
~ The suffixes used by the Sapphic Hegemony on genderized terms. The male ones indicate military duty and degree of attachment (marital, servile or otherwise) to a woman.
~ Food that is commonly eaten within the fleet, usually consisting of hot cheesy goo in a pastry wrap or cold creamy goo in a pastry wrap.
My industrial examples were really about why a product couldn't be mass-produced, hence a development problem would be, for example, if a metal component was prone to frequent cracking during quenching, hence too many units had to be discarded and recast, or (another example) a component requires an odd-angled groove that can't be fabricated by machine (and is too expensive to groove each unit by hand).
In Tebow's case, the design works, but he slipped off the alignment rails during manufacture. He just got lucky and not only didn't jam the machine but passed QA specs. Most units that slip off the rails not only wind up misshapen (and unusable) but also break the machine and shut the factory down for repairs. And how far did I just carry this metaphor?
57
Ahhh, Uriel! very sweet ideas indeed. Very LeGuin-ian (and from me that is the highest complement). Please see it through. I look forward to seeing you and all your isotopes on the red carpet when the movie comes out. Will you all dress the same?
As for your metaphor you did not carry it quite far enough: sometimes when a unit slips off the rails the factory catches fire and burns to the ground. This can happen in a flash. A dead loss. Takes the unit with it, BTW.
As for your metaphor you did not carry it quite far enough: sometimes when a unit slips off the rails the factory catches fire and burns to the ground. This can happen in a flash. A dead loss. Takes the unit with it, BTW.
58
oops!! that's "highest compliment." (#57)
(sigh! ~ in the OR until ten last night learning to operate on the damn fiendish robot)
(sigh! ~ in the OR until ten last night learning to operate on the damn fiendish robot)
59
Also, thinking about your comments elsewhere, I do hope you have/find a place to be safely authentic. (if that's not too oblique)
60
Kind of selfish to go to hell, only for the consideration of YOUR soul, and not the souls of others ....
Funny, it's kind of a funny thing. I guess when I think about the most self righteous Christians, and their obsession of THEIR OWN SOUL, and not the immortality of others (I'm oversimplifying, but it's one of my favorite thought experiments.) So they can take their self righteousness and bring more suffering into the world, so that they alone can experience eternal life.
I think the people I would have hurt along the way would weight rather heavily on my conscious in eternal paradise, but what the hell do I know.
And it gives a whole new meaning to me, when supposedly we judge ourselves at the end of this.
I guess, it kind of gives a whole new meaning to me, when I think that Jesus died for our sins.
I'm not going to outright say that I'm Christ almighty, but I think there is something to acknowledge, when Jesus went against most church doctorane to tell people EXACTLY how they really treat each other. The nature of love, and the nature of "conservative ideology" and it really can alienate the human condition.
Look nobody LIKES abortions, and nobody LIKED leapers, prostitutes, or tax collectors. (or even murderers).
Jesus got over it, and maybe you should too.
Funny, it's kind of a funny thing. I guess when I think about the most self righteous Christians, and their obsession of THEIR OWN SOUL, and not the immortality of others (I'm oversimplifying, but it's one of my favorite thought experiments.) So they can take their self righteousness and bring more suffering into the world, so that they alone can experience eternal life.
I think the people I would have hurt along the way would weight rather heavily on my conscious in eternal paradise, but what the hell do I know.
And it gives a whole new meaning to me, when supposedly we judge ourselves at the end of this.
I guess, it kind of gives a whole new meaning to me, when I think that Jesus died for our sins.
I'm not going to outright say that I'm Christ almighty, but I think there is something to acknowledge, when Jesus went against most church doctorane to tell people EXACTLY how they really treat each other. The nature of love, and the nature of "conservative ideology" and it really can alienate the human condition.
Look nobody LIKES abortions, and nobody LIKED leapers, prostitutes, or tax collectors. (or even murderers).
Jesus got over it, and maybe you should too.
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54
"The anomaly is not with Tim, but with the placenta, which, although it arose from the same pair of gametes as Tim, is NOT Tim."
Interesting point.
And Tim is NOT Tim's mom.
Abortionists like to screech that they are only affecting THEIR body.
Baby is NOT Mom.
"The anomaly is not with Tim, but with the placenta, which, although it arose from the same pair of gametes as Tim, is NOT Tim."
Interesting point.
And Tim is NOT Tim's mom.
Abortionists like to screech that they are only affecting THEIR body.
Baby is NOT Mom.
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54
"I can NEVER figure out why all these life-begins-with-conception types ignore the placenta since IT began with conception too, "
Sorry.
We don't follow.
What, exactly, should the life-begins-with-conception types feel about the placenta?
"I can NEVER figure out why all these life-begins-with-conception types ignore the placenta since IT began with conception too, "
Sorry.
We don't follow.
What, exactly, should the life-begins-with-conception types feel about the placenta?
63
@ bobbo - I'd say it. So, expand your imagination. It's not so complicated all the time, and even if it were, those complexities are nobody's business except for the mother and her doctors.
It doesn't matter if Tim or his mother would have died or not. I really don't care. Not because of lack of empathy, but because it isn't our fucking buiness why she was advised to abort and chose not to. I wasn't advised to abort and I did so anyway. I consider myself just as noble, or conversely consider her just as ignoble. Her reasons for choosing to give birth are just as much none of my business as mine are for choosing not to not to give birth.
Her argument -will horrors never cease?- is actually worse than the argument of "there needs to be a good reason for abortion". It smacks of something in humanity that makes me sick. Especially in late-term abortions. If a woman wants to abort in her third trimester, I don't care what her reasons are, if she even has one. I trust that she knows herself better than I do.
Mainly the focus severely needs to be taken away from WHY other people choose to plan the creation of their family at their own pace (it's their family, not yours is obviously still an insufficient reason for most people). That attention needs to be put on this instead: These fuckers want to use the penalty of death or penalty of jail to force a woman, any woman, to give birth against her will.
There's a word for that.
It doesn't matter if Tim or his mother would have died or not. I really don't care. Not because of lack of empathy, but because it isn't our fucking buiness why she was advised to abort and chose not to. I wasn't advised to abort and I did so anyway. I consider myself just as noble, or conversely consider her just as ignoble. Her reasons for choosing to give birth are just as much none of my business as mine are for choosing not to not to give birth.
Her argument -will horrors never cease?- is actually worse than the argument of "there needs to be a good reason for abortion". It smacks of something in humanity that makes me sick. Especially in late-term abortions. If a woman wants to abort in her third trimester, I don't care what her reasons are, if she even has one. I trust that she knows herself better than I do.
Mainly the focus severely needs to be taken away from WHY other people choose to plan the creation of their family at their own pace (it's their family, not yours is obviously still an insufficient reason for most people). That attention needs to be put on this instead: These fuckers want to use the penalty of death or penalty of jail to force a woman, any woman, to give birth against her will.
There's a word for that.
64
I won't be watching the Superbowl, but I consider it first-world yuppie bullshit.
However, I am glad I live a life where my only concern that day will be my disengagement from fun my friends are having, which revolves around a meaningless competition for ridiculous dollar amounts. All because the game's marketing fucks want me and MILLIONS of other chicks to feel bad that day. Way to be a bummer, Superbowl. Not for me, but for the other women.
However, I am glad I live a life where my only concern that day will be my disengagement from fun my friends are having, which revolves around a meaningless competition for ridiculous dollar amounts. All because the game's marketing fucks want me and MILLIONS of other chicks to feel bad that day. Way to be a bummer, Superbowl. Not for me, but for the other women.
65
This commercial makes me so angry. My mother wanted to abort me because she thought there was going to be medical complications, but didnt because the doctors said it was too late in the pregnancy to do so. Which is funny, because in California, there aren't any laws restricting abortions in the 2nd trimester...
So I lived, I did well for myself (ivy league, though obviously cant compare to tim tebow), so yeah, I'm grateful that I was given a chance to exist, but I've never been sanctimonious to believe that my personal/unique circumstances gives me grounds to dictate the choices of others.
So where the hell is my commercial?
So I lived, I did well for myself (ivy league, though obviously cant compare to tim tebow), so yeah, I'm grateful that I was given a chance to exist, but I've never been sanctimonious to believe that my personal/unique circumstances gives me grounds to dictate the choices of others.
So where the hell is my commercial?
66
If Tim Tebow were born a girl, this ad wouldn't exist. He (she) would inherently be less valuable to the world (ESPN probably generated millions of $ off of Tebow-mania over the last couple of years.) Another fine example of the sexism of society.
The easy response to the Tebow ad is that any quarterback who can't take snaps from under center should have been aborted. Hey-yo!!!
The easy response to the Tebow ad is that any quarterback who can't take snaps from under center should have been aborted. Hey-yo!!!
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I wish Tim Tebow would go ahead and fail in the NFL so I don't have to hear about the pompous cry baby any more.
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@23 I noticed that years ago, too. No one in Commercial Land ever gets a pregnancy test result that makes them upset. I also noticed that any woman in a pregnancy ad that is happy she isn't pregnant right then, usually makes some comment that she definitely wants a child later. Childfree women are a no-no on TV, it would seem.
Personally, I've known a few women that had wished they had abortions. Not because the children were physically deformed, but because the children in question grew up into sadistic, violent criminals no matter what their mothers did, and no matter how much money was spent in psychiatry bills. In hindsight, those abortions look pretty damn good.
Can't have that point of view on TV. God forbid we admit that some women regretted becoming mothers. I'm all for women making whatever choices are right for them, and some women are happy with their decision to keep them. More power to them. Some, however, are not.
Personally, I've known a few women that had wished they had abortions. Not because the children were physically deformed, but because the children in question grew up into sadistic, violent criminals no matter what their mothers did, and no matter how much money was spent in psychiatry bills. In hindsight, those abortions look pretty damn good.
Can't have that point of view on TV. God forbid we admit that some women regretted becoming mothers. I'm all for women making whatever choices are right for them, and some women are happy with their decision to keep them. More power to them. Some, however, are not.
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Loveschild ... if life is so precious, how come there is 7? 8? billion of us "precious" entities. Hell, I spent 10 years of my life getting a degree that is supposedly going to device of way to maintain all these people.
Yet I've been fighting to get a fucking job since March.
When I do FINALLY get a job, I'm going to be oh so happy to use my welfare funds to support the supposed football god's of the future. I mean I LOVE football, but I'm not naive enough to assume that every oopsie will be future football great or president of the united states of America.
Yet I've been fighting to get a fucking job since March.
When I do FINALLY get a job, I'm going to be oh so happy to use my welfare funds to support the supposed football god's of the future. I mean I LOVE football, but I'm not naive enough to assume that every oopsie will be future football great or president of the united states of America.
70
Obama's desire to repeal "Don't ask, don't tell" can actually help to fulfill the "days of Lot" (Luke 17, cf. Gen. 19), the fulfillment of which will hurry up the return of the Heavenly Commander-in-Chief who will make all things straight (pun intended)! Interesting Google articles include "Obama Supports Public Depravity," "Separation of Raunch and State" and "David Letterman's Hate Etc."
For some dessert visit Yahoo and type in "Obama Avoids Bible Verses."
PS - You're invited to use these new pro-life slogans: "Unborn babies should have the right to keep and bear arms - and legs and ears and eyes etc.!" and "Unborn babies should have the same right to be born alive that abortionists had!"
For some dessert visit Yahoo and type in "Obama Avoids Bible Verses."
PS - You're invited to use these new pro-life slogans: "Unborn babies should have the right to keep and bear arms - and legs and ears and eyes etc.!" and "Unborn babies should have the same right to be born alive that abortionists had!"
71
Wow! sweet attitude devant, LeGuinian is a high complement, indeed. If ever I do make it to the red carpet, maybe we'll have color-coded boutonnières to tell us apart. Would you walk with me if I got you an awesome dress?
Regarding my having space to be authentic (not too oblique at all), I've been pretty lucky to find partners with similar interests, or who were, at least GGG. I'm spending a stint single as of last summer, and I'm not in any hurry to change that (though once spring hits, I may get all fluffy).
Training on a robot? Is this in preparation for a specific upcoming procedure, or is this a new technique kind of thing?
Regarding my having space to be authentic (not too oblique at all), I've been pretty lucky to find partners with similar interests, or who were, at least GGG. I'm spending a stint single as of last summer, and I'm not in any hurry to change that (though once spring hits, I may get all fluffy).
Training on a robot? Is this in preparation for a specific upcoming procedure, or is this a new technique kind of thing?
72
Join you and all your isotopes at the big party? In a New York minute, Uriel!
As for the robot: www.daVinciHysterectomy.com
As for the robot: www.daVinciHysterectomy.com
74
I don't care about Tim or his mom or her choice. I also don't care about football or the Stupidbowl. I love the Red Sox, and I love baseball, but I also care exactly zero about what the wives, girlfriends, and mothers of even the Red Sox players think about abortion. Maybe a woman out there won't have a life-saving abortion because of Tim's mom. *shrug* If she dies, then she got what she wanted - she got to make a choice. I have NO problem with that. None. Keep the gene pool clean! I'm glad when controversies like this happen, because they give me a chance to talk about the real risks and benefits of having abortions v. having children v. adoption. Why don't women/girls give up their babies for adoption? Well, there's this little phenomenon of worshipping at the altar of pregnant ladies and a VERY public gestation (unless, like the old days, the girl/woman gets shipped off "to live with a sick aunt who needs help"). Who wants to face "Why did you give up your baby?" for the rest of their lives? And since I have this platform, all you "open adoption" proponents, or "give the adopted kid their parents' information when they turn 18" proponents, I will tell you that you are promoting abortion to someone like me, who would NEVER give anyone the chance to show up later in my life and RUIN it just by simply showing up. Abortion might stop a beating heart, but it stops a world of heartache for thousands of women (and men) every year, too. Anyone who says all killing is murder should never defend themselves when being attacked ever again, and should not support the military, since they occasionally have to kill folks, too. (I am pro-military, in case anyone's wondering. Anti-war, mostly, but a Navy brat who knows reality is not ideal.)
77
While we're glad to see 'no one wants more abortions, even though we want the choice' is an idea catching on with more and more people, even those unlikely to need to make a choice such as abortion...
Isn't Dan fawking Savage commenting on the rights and arguments of women getting pregnant (or ungetting pregnant), based on a superbowl ad no less, about as appropriate / valuable / logical as a non-citizen remarking on the merits of changing the US voting age while incarcerated for a felony?
Appreciate the love, but consider using your clout to get a worthwhile speaker (read: uterine-abled or medical pro or legal pro) instead of just listening to yourself talk.
-The Anti-hate, Pro-Reason, Pro-choice folks
Isn't Dan fawking Savage commenting on the rights and arguments of women getting pregnant (or ungetting pregnant), based on a superbowl ad no less, about as appropriate / valuable / logical as a non-citizen remarking on the merits of changing the US voting age while incarcerated for a felony?
Appreciate the love, but consider using your clout to get a worthwhile speaker (read: uterine-abled or medical pro or legal pro) instead of just listening to yourself talk.
-The Anti-hate, Pro-Reason, Pro-choice folks
78
The last I checked, JulietteF, the abortion debate was a civil rights issue, and Dan is pretty big on civil rights issues. But considering the blows that womankind has recently sustained in the reproductive healthcare department, I'm surprised one who identifies as a spokesperson for The Anti-hate, Pro-Reason, Pro-choice folks feels as if she can choose her allies at all, let alone exclude all of us non-OBGYN, non-attorney, uterine-challenged folk.
Women are as oppressed in this society as are gays, and far worse in plenty of other nations. If you must be critical of the efforts of your allies, I suggest you be more polite and more constructive.
Thank you.
Women are as oppressed in this society as are gays, and far worse in plenty of other nations. If you must be critical of the efforts of your allies, I suggest you be more polite and more constructive.
Thank you.
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78
how gallant
one of dan's devoted burrowing brownnose fanboys leaping to the rescue
'If you must be critical of the efforts of your allies, I suggest you be more polite and more constructive.'
we're not sure if that was irony or sarcasm or just credulous cluelessness
since danny holds the patent on telling your allies to fuckoff asshole if they don't agree with you 110%
how gallant
one of dan's devoted burrowing brownnose fanboys leaping to the rescue
'If you must be critical of the efforts of your allies, I suggest you be more polite and more constructive.'
we're not sure if that was irony or sarcasm or just credulous cluelessness
since danny holds the patent on telling your allies to fuckoff asshole if they don't agree with you 110%
81
Uhhhhhh 77, is this some kind of joke? Who are you (excuse me, "we") to be getting all righteous, like women OWN this issue or some crazy thing like that? Do you think any civil rights movement makes it without the support of the larger community?
Who's affected by the loss of abortion rights? Kids who lose their mothers to an illegal abortion or to a pregnancy complication, parents who want to keep their daughters from being trapped by an unplanned pregnancy, men who want their lovers, mothers, and sisters to have the basic right of self-determination, or anyone who cares about the ability of women to advance in education, business, and the professions.
And what do you know about us posters? Who do you think we are? Have you bothered to learn anything about us? Some of us have had abortions. Some of us love people who have had abortions or have sat with friends in trouble.
I perform abortions. I do them quietly, because the names Barnett Slepian, David Gunn, Shannon Lowney, Lee Ann Nichols, John Britton, and George Tiller mean something more to me than they do to you. I guard my privacy zealously to protect my kids and my own safety. I am out to very few people in my community and my social circle. I have been shunned, preached at, and berated. Numerous idiots pray daily for the scales to fall from my eyes. (In truth, I hope for the same for them!)
I am grateful that in this forum I am able to speak about what I do. The support of people here means a lot to me. So buzz off, and rejoin the Ellen Jamesians, OK? This uterus-owning medical pro suggests you go lurk on some other blog.
Who's affected by the loss of abortion rights? Kids who lose their mothers to an illegal abortion or to a pregnancy complication, parents who want to keep their daughters from being trapped by an unplanned pregnancy, men who want their lovers, mothers, and sisters to have the basic right of self-determination, or anyone who cares about the ability of women to advance in education, business, and the professions.
And what do you know about us posters? Who do you think we are? Have you bothered to learn anything about us? Some of us have had abortions. Some of us love people who have had abortions or have sat with friends in trouble.
I perform abortions. I do them quietly, because the names Barnett Slepian, David Gunn, Shannon Lowney, Lee Ann Nichols, John Britton, and George Tiller mean something more to me than they do to you. I guard my privacy zealously to protect my kids and my own safety. I am out to very few people in my community and my social circle. I have been shunned, preached at, and berated. Numerous idiots pray daily for the scales to fall from my eyes. (In truth, I hope for the same for them!)
I am grateful that in this forum I am able to speak about what I do. The support of people here means a lot to me. So buzz off, and rejoin the Ellen Jamesians, OK? This uterus-owning medical pro suggests you go lurk on some other blog.
82
Who's affected by the loss of abortion rights?
Males (it would be a travesty to use the term 'man' to refer to them, for there is nothing manly about them or their behavior...) who impregnate a woman and create a new human life, their own flesh and blood offspring, but are unwilling to accept and meet the responsibility they have freely and willingly incurred.
Men who feel no compunction about killing their own children to get themselves out of a little jam.
There is your "basic right of self-determination"- the right to pay someone to kill your kid to get daddy off the hook.
Here's a moral riddle for you:
who is lower on the food chain of depravity, the scum that hire someone to kill their babies or the scum they hire?
Males (it would be a travesty to use the term 'man' to refer to them, for there is nothing manly about them or their behavior...) who impregnate a woman and create a new human life, their own flesh and blood offspring, but are unwilling to accept and meet the responsibility they have freely and willingly incurred.
Men who feel no compunction about killing their own children to get themselves out of a little jam.
There is your "basic right of self-determination"- the right to pay someone to kill your kid to get daddy off the hook.
Here's a moral riddle for you:
who is lower on the food chain of depravity, the scum that hire someone to kill their babies or the scum they hire?
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"names (that) mean something more to me..."
Heroes?
Martyrs?
We'll meet your six names, and raise you 800,000-
oh wait; ours never got names....
never felt the sun on their face
never felt a mother's kiss on their cheek
400,000 of them were women.
women who will never advance in education, business, and the professions...
Scott Roeder took one life.
what an amateur punk- right?
if only he'd gone to medical school....
"names (that) mean something more to me..."
Heroes?
Martyrs?
We'll meet your six names, and raise you 800,000-
oh wait; ours never got names....
never felt the sun on their face
never felt a mother's kiss on their cheek
400,000 of them were women.
women who will never advance in education, business, and the professions...
Scott Roeder took one life.
what an amateur punk- right?
if only he'd gone to medical school....
84
Speaking as someone who babysat too much as a child: I can't help thinking of people as vessels, who need to be filled up with thirty years of information before...
In my EXPERIENCE, correct me if I'm wrong troll, people are the knowledge that other people pour into children. Starting before toilet training. This is an unacknowledged reason why folks are pissed after their teenager gets killed in an ill-conceived war--the investment. Anyone arguing against abortion is hands off about child-rearing. This includes patria familiae with 18 offspring.
In my EXPERIENCE, correct me if I'm wrong troll, people are the knowledge that other people pour into children. Starting before toilet training. This is an unacknowledged reason why folks are pissed after their teenager gets killed in an ill-conceived war--the investment. Anyone arguing against abortion is hands off about child-rearing. This includes patria familiae with 18 offspring.
85
Allegedly (our vitriolic troll) also has no solution for the sovereignty problem. Which is why he has to resort to sarcasm and threats of Hellfire; there's really no way to put a positive spin on the obstructionist intent to keep women as second class citizens.
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85
There is no sovereignty problem.
People have full control over their bodies and actions.
When they use that agency to engage in behavior that creates a new human life they incur moral obligations and responsibilities.
Killing another human to get out of those freely entered into responsibilities and is beyond reprehensible.
When women are exploited by worthless males and find no recourse except to kill their own children they are rendered second class.
There is no sovereignty problem.
People have full control over their bodies and actions.
When they use that agency to engage in behavior that creates a new human life they incur moral obligations and responsibilities.
Killing another human to get out of those freely entered into responsibilities and is beyond reprehensible.
When women are exploited by worthless males and find no recourse except to kill their own children they are rendered second class.
87
Yeah, women are rendered second class when they take steps to fix a situation that was caused by their being second class and which will serve to keep them second class for the rest of their lives.
Or maybe women aren't second class but there are a lot of people who think they are, so... maybe that's the same thing.
Simoan de Beauvoir said men are humans and women are women.
Or maybe women aren't second class but there are a lot of people who think they are, so... maybe that's the same thing.
Simoan de Beauvoir said men are humans and women are women.
88
So, Allegedly, you just deny anything that doesn't fit your simplistic view of the world?
No sovereignty problem. (The buck is always passable to a slacker male. Q.E.D.)
No logical establishment of a point of personhood. Because, you know, Hitler, too, used logic.
Whatever Allegedly feels is true is, because that's common sense. It's what everyone feels, except those who don't, id est, those who aren't Allegedly.
You're still denying human equality to half the population, and they ain't buying your line.
Good luck with that.
No sovereignty problem. (The buck is always passable to a slacker male. Q.E.D.)
No logical establishment of a point of personhood. Because, you know, Hitler, too, used logic.
Whatever Allegedly feels is true is, because that's common sense. It's what everyone feels, except those who don't, id est, those who aren't Allegedly.
You're still denying human equality to half the population, and they ain't buying your line.
Good luck with that.
89
87
"when they take steps to fix a situation that was caused by their being second class"
Being "second class" causes women to get pregnant?
We're sorry but we don't follow.
"and which will serve to keep them second class for the rest of their lives"
Are you referring to Motherhood?
If so, that seems a rather harsh and pessimistic view.
Beauvoir asserted that women are as capable of choice as men, and thus can choose to elevate themselves, moving beyond the 'immanence' to which they were previously resigned and reaching 'transcendence', a position in which one takes responsibility for oneself.
Taking responsibility for oneself would include not getting pregnant unless prepared for the attendant responsibilities.
Killing another to get out of freely incurred responsibilities is not taking responsibility for oneself.
I believe women are fully capable of behaving responsibly
and taking responsibility for their actions and choices
and fulfilling the responsibilities they take on.
Do you?
"when they take steps to fix a situation that was caused by their being second class"
Being "second class" causes women to get pregnant?
We're sorry but we don't follow.
"and which will serve to keep them second class for the rest of their lives"
Are you referring to Motherhood?
If so, that seems a rather harsh and pessimistic view.
Beauvoir asserted that women are as capable of choice as men, and thus can choose to elevate themselves, moving beyond the 'immanence' to which they were previously resigned and reaching 'transcendence', a position in which one takes responsibility for oneself.
Taking responsibility for oneself would include not getting pregnant unless prepared for the attendant responsibilities.
Killing another to get out of freely incurred responsibilities is not taking responsibility for oneself.
I believe women are fully capable of behaving responsibly
and taking responsibility for their actions and choices
and fulfilling the responsibilities they take on.
Do you?
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There is only a sovereignty problem if you believe women are incapable of choosing their own behavior and behaving responsibly and accepting responsibility for their behaviors and choices.
Is that what you believe?
'Poor poor dumb helpless women....
unable to resist men and not get pregnant....
unable to make intelligent choices about sexual behavior and birth control....'
That isn't the women I know.
You're denying life to a fifth of the population.
There is only a sovereignty problem if you believe women are incapable of choosing their own behavior and behaving responsibly and accepting responsibility for their behaviors and choices.
Is that what you believe?
'Poor poor dumb helpless women....
unable to resist men and not get pregnant....
unable to make intelligent choices about sexual behavior and birth control....'
That isn't the women I know.
You're denying life to a fifth of the population.
92
Do I have this correct, starrlight? According to you, the right of a woman to choose her destiny and retain control of her body should be denied on grounds of a lifestyle choice? She should be denied personal sovereignty for failing to behave responsibly?
Is this what you believe?
Funny how men get to behave irresponsibly without consequence, hence the inequality.
Funny how your definition of responsible behavior denies women free expression of their own sexuality, which is (according to most of the free world) their inalienable right, and that isn't equality.
Funny how women can and do take responsibility for their fertility, despite even the best efforts of the obstructionist sector I might add, and yet this only reduces risk of pregnancy, and doesn't eliminate it. Women can still and do get pregnant despite responsible action. So this alone isn't equality.
So is parenthood really about punishment for promiscuity? You'd be the first obstructionist to freely admit that was the case, and hence that this is all about morality against sexual freedom, not protection of the unborn.
Funny how 70% of obstructionists are men, 0% of whom will ever get pregnant.
In disagreement to your assertion, the sovereignty problem remains, not because women are incapable of choosing their own behavior, but because they have a right to choose their own behavior, whether this is (your interpretation of) responsible behavior, or otherwise. And, then, they still have a right (again, according to most of the free world) to comprehensive reproductive healthcare, which includes the ability to dictate control of their own fertility.
Less than that is not equality.
Less than that is less than what men get. Less than that perpetuates the still contemporary second-class status of women in society.
Regarding those to whom [I'm] denying life (Really! 61.7 million Americans! Links, please starrlight, to the Guttmacher page were you got this figure.), You've yet to establish when personhood begins, and (logically, not emotionally) why, specifically it begins then.
Allegedly's attempts at defining personhood at conception have, so far, been about wowing me with poetry, or when that fails, saying personhood isn't a fair concept.
More...
Is this what you believe?
Funny how men get to behave irresponsibly without consequence, hence the inequality.
Funny how your definition of responsible behavior denies women free expression of their own sexuality, which is (according to most of the free world) their inalienable right, and that isn't equality.
Funny how women can and do take responsibility for their fertility, despite even the best efforts of the obstructionist sector I might add, and yet this only reduces risk of pregnancy, and doesn't eliminate it. Women can still and do get pregnant despite responsible action. So this alone isn't equality.
So is parenthood really about punishment for promiscuity? You'd be the first obstructionist to freely admit that was the case, and hence that this is all about morality against sexual freedom, not protection of the unborn.
Funny how 70% of obstructionists are men, 0% of whom will ever get pregnant.
In disagreement to your assertion, the sovereignty problem remains, not because women are incapable of choosing their own behavior, but because they have a right to choose their own behavior, whether this is (your interpretation of) responsible behavior, or otherwise. And, then, they still have a right (again, according to most of the free world) to comprehensive reproductive healthcare, which includes the ability to dictate control of their own fertility.
Less than that is not equality.
Less than that is less than what men get. Less than that perpetuates the still contemporary second-class status of women in society.
Regarding those to whom [I'm] denying life (Really! 61.7 million Americans! Links, please starrlight, to the Guttmacher page were you got this figure.), You've yet to establish when personhood begins, and (logically, not emotionally) why, specifically it begins then.
Allegedly's attempts at defining personhood at conception have, so far, been about wowing me with poetry, or when that fails, saying personhood isn't a fair concept.
93
Simonéee, you sound (read) a lot like starrlight. Are you the same person?
To answer your question (presuming it is a genuine point of query) pregnancy in and of itself does not make a woman a second class citizen. Pregnancy when imposed as a duty, does. This is the case even when one judges her as enduring the consequences of irresponsible behavior, i.e. having had sex. (Note that the language of this also implies that parenthood is more about punishment than it is about procreation.).
To clarify, Simonéee, I presume you do not intend to imply that all pregnancies are preventable, or that one should abstain from sex entirely until one intends to get pregnant, yes? Indeed, no contraceptive is perfect. Many activists fronts who seek to obstruct access to abortion also seek to obstruct access to birth control (and have been successful in impacting access by lower and lower-middle classes of the US). And, as humans are intrinsicly and in many cases unavoidably sexual creatures, abstinence from sex is not an appropriate requirement to expect.
But pregnancy is not to be taken lightly, as it is a process that not only invokes time, energy and significant health risks, but also has permanent, irrecoverable health effects on a woman. So, yes, forcing a woman to stay pregnant is denying her control of her own body and denying her the right to self-determinism, hence, is a considerable blow to her position of citizenship.
Access to comprehensive reproductive healthcare, including the right to choose to terminate a pregnancy are components that empower a woman to take responsibility for her own destiny. This includes allowing her to choose whether or not to become a parent, and when (in contrast to having to do so out of necessity), and in so doing achieve that transcendence you describe.
More...
To answer your question (presuming it is a genuine point of query) pregnancy in and of itself does not make a woman a second class citizen. Pregnancy when imposed as a duty, does. This is the case even when one judges her as enduring the consequences of irresponsible behavior, i.e. having had sex. (Note that the language of this also implies that parenthood is more about punishment than it is about procreation.).
To clarify, Simonéee, I presume you do not intend to imply that all pregnancies are preventable, or that one should abstain from sex entirely until one intends to get pregnant, yes? Indeed, no contraceptive is perfect. Many activists fronts who seek to obstruct access to abortion also seek to obstruct access to birth control (and have been successful in impacting access by lower and lower-middle classes of the US). And, as humans are intrinsicly and in many cases unavoidably sexual creatures, abstinence from sex is not an appropriate requirement to expect.
But pregnancy is not to be taken lightly, as it is a process that not only invokes time, energy and significant health risks, but also has permanent, irrecoverable health effects on a woman. So, yes, forcing a woman to stay pregnant is denying her control of her own body and denying her the right to self-determinism, hence, is a considerable blow to her position of citizenship.
Access to comprehensive reproductive healthcare, including the right to choose to terminate a pregnancy are components that empower a woman to take responsibility for her own destiny. This includes allowing her to choose whether or not to become a parent, and when (in contrast to having to do so out of necessity), and in so doing achieve that transcendence you describe.
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I think was very clear.
Humans are intrinsically capable of reason and making choices. Choices carry consequences. And responsibilities.
Pregnancy is not imposed on women, they freely engage in behavior that results in pregnancy. You give women no credit for being capable of making responsible choices. You underestimate women.
If birth control is not 100% effective people should not have sex unless they are prepared to accept the responsibility of a pregnancy that may result. If they are employing effective birth control that chance can be reduced to a very low level but if they are not willing to deal with that possibility it is irresponsible behavior.
Sexual activity is a wonderful thing, when engaged in responsibly.
Parenthood is not a punishment, it is the most life enriching blessing and experience we are capable of. If, as you assert; some see it as a punishment, an imposed duty, a consequence to be endured; then they are making some terribly poor choices in their lives.
They are misusing the agency that as humans we are all endowed with.
Driving a car is a great convenience in our society. It can be done responsibly with very small risk. If, however, a person drove someone else's car without permission while drunk there is a high probability they will reap some negative consequences.
Is driving a car a bad thing?
Are traffic laws bad things?
No.
The driver now facing DUI and theft charges may think so but the problem lies with them and their choices. They may see looming incarceration as a considerable blow to their 'position of citizenship'.
They may seek to 'empower' them self, to 'take control of their life', to make the consequences of their irresponsible behavior 'go away' by killing the car owner and the arresting officer but that is not, by most people's reasoning, a moral way to resolve the dilemma.
Killing one's child does not 'empower'. It is but another, all be it much more horrible, irresponsible harmful choice.
Abortion is not about "choice".
It is about seeking to avoid the consequences of previous choices.
It is about terrible selfish dereliction,
it is the very opposite of "empowerment".
More...
I think was very clear.
Humans are intrinsically capable of reason and making choices. Choices carry consequences. And responsibilities.
Pregnancy is not imposed on women, they freely engage in behavior that results in pregnancy. You give women no credit for being capable of making responsible choices. You underestimate women.
If birth control is not 100% effective people should not have sex unless they are prepared to accept the responsibility of a pregnancy that may result. If they are employing effective birth control that chance can be reduced to a very low level but if they are not willing to deal with that possibility it is irresponsible behavior.
Sexual activity is a wonderful thing, when engaged in responsibly.
Parenthood is not a punishment, it is the most life enriching blessing and experience we are capable of. If, as you assert; some see it as a punishment, an imposed duty, a consequence to be endured; then they are making some terribly poor choices in their lives.
They are misusing the agency that as humans we are all endowed with.
Driving a car is a great convenience in our society. It can be done responsibly with very small risk. If, however, a person drove someone else's car without permission while drunk there is a high probability they will reap some negative consequences.
Is driving a car a bad thing?
Are traffic laws bad things?
No.
The driver now facing DUI and theft charges may think so but the problem lies with them and their choices. They may see looming incarceration as a considerable blow to their 'position of citizenship'.
They may seek to 'empower' them self, to 'take control of their life', to make the consequences of their irresponsible behavior 'go away' by killing the car owner and the arresting officer but that is not, by most people's reasoning, a moral way to resolve the dilemma.
Killing one's child does not 'empower'. It is but another, all be it much more horrible, irresponsible harmful choice.
Abortion is not about "choice".
It is about seeking to avoid the consequences of previous choices.
It is about terrible selfish dereliction,
it is the very opposite of "empowerment".
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