Slog
News & ArtsFriday, September 10, 2010
City Take Cars Off Pike At Night
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 11:23 AM
Broadway—New York City's Broadway—is a pretty wide street too. And the Bloomberg administration has reduced traffic capacity and closed closed some stretches to traffic entirely, instantly creating new parks and pedestrian zones. It's lovely:
In two years, roughly three and a half miles of the street’s moving lanes have vanished—nearly half of the total between Columbus Circle and Union Square—and in some spots automobile traffic has dropped by a third. Dozens of parking spaces are gone, replaced by bicycle lanes and pedestrian picnic areas. For the first time in New York’s modern era, Broadway no longer offers a continuous path from the Bronx to the Battery. The metamorphosis is set to continue after Labor Day, when the city will remove one of the two remaining driving lanes in the five blocks north of 18th Street by Union Square. By autumn, nearly all of once-bustling Broadway from 33rd to 17th Streets will be reduced to a single lane of moving traffic, save for an occasional stub for left turns.And city officials are considering a further expansion of the pedestrian space along the corridor, although they say there is no current plan to close it to cars entirely.... Much of the public attention to the changes on Broadway has focused on one element: the pedestrian plazas that banned cars entirely from parts of Times and Herald Squares, creating open-air concrete parks in the center of Manhattan, complete with brightly hued beach furniture.
I realize that Seattle is a super special and totally unique alternate universe and things that work just fine elsewhere—mass transit, district elections, removing elevated urban highways, temporary street closures—can't work here. But arguing that a street is too wide to be closed to traffic is just ridiculous. London's Oxford Street is pretty damn wide too—and closing it to traffic was a hit and now they do it once a year. It works in New York—where chunks of Broadway have been closed permanently—and it works in Chicago. And it'll work here our super special total unique alternative universe.
Here's a proposal: if closing Pike is just too scawy, maybe the city can experiment by closing 10th and 11th between Pike and Pine and then we can see if this sort of thing can actually work here in our universe.
UPDATE: I should've been clearer: I'm not talking about—nor am I in favor of—closing Pike Street or 10th and 11th permanently, a la Westlake in the bad old days. Temporary closures, on Friday and Saturday nights, and Sunday nights too on three-day weekends. Let food trucks set up in the middle of the street, restaurants can set out tables—people who are drinking should eat—and the city would instantly create a destination nightlife amenity that cost is NOTHING to create besides the price of a few sawhorses at either end of Pike between 12th and Broadway.
Pike between Broadway and 12th is practically impassible now, with the traffic and the crowds on the weekends, and it would be far safer for all—including drivers—if two blocks of the street was closed on the weekends. It's a no-brainer—and just think of the additional taxes it would generate, Mr. Mayor.
2
You mean deep-bore tunnels in glacial till built below sea level in lands formerly occupied by Native tribes and subject to high earthquake risk?
Nope. Not below a city. That would be foolish. And very very very expensive.
Nope. Not below a city. That would be foolish. And very very very expensive.
3
Comparing streets with major shopping in cities with 10 million people for a one-day bonanza to the comparatively meager shopping on Pike Street in a city with metro population of around 2 million is "ridiculous." Nobody's saying that this city is fundamentally different from all ofter cities in every way--that's a straw man--but you're comparing apples to bananas.
4
Dom... big chunks of Broadway are closed permanently, not just for one-day bonanzas. And in Glasgow and London they close streets in nightlife districts to traffic on the weekends.
Yes, London is bigger, so's New York. We're not comparing cities. We're comparing a program. Works in big cities, works in smaller cities, would work here fine.
Yes, London is bigger, so's New York. We're not comparing cities. We're comparing a program. Works in big cities, works in smaller cities, would work here fine.
5
Look, we know you claim you "don't know how to drive," but in America, if you can't drive, it's likely because you've had a string of DUIs. Sorry, but it's true. Keep your anti-car resentment to yourself. Stay on the wagon, Doorknob Danny.
6
Do this instead: close 4th Avenue between Pike and Pine except for bus traffic.
What you'd need:
1. Cut the road in half for number of lanes.
2. Convert 4th between at least the stadiums and Denny to 2-way traffic.
3. Bar any traffic but buses on 4th between Pike/Pine from 5am-11p daily.
4. Extend Westlake Park east toward Century Square.
5. Shift at least 25%-30% of bus routes from 1st, 2nd and 3rd to 4th.
5a. Shift more lines later, if it can be supported by volume.
6. Create prominent signage directing people from Westlake Center to Westlake Station.
7. Open up licensing for street vendors in Westlake Center.
8. You could have 1-8 buses there during the day on almost any traffic light cycle. You think those stores won't appreciate THAT level of foot traffic brought in?
Benefits:
1. Puts a majority of the downtown transit within a 1/2 block of Westlake Station and the downtown bus tunnel.
2. Breaks the clusters of buses on 1st and 3rd especially, putting them in their own dedicated space.
3. Creates a new downtown space that by default will have HEAVY foot traffic.
4. Makes the park bigger.
5. Drives all the commuters from outlying areas into the literal guts of the shopping district.
6. Puts all the commuters directly onto the bus tunnel system.
7. Will lighten the traffic on 4th Avenue--road diet. You won't be able to use it during the day as a cross-town route without turning off at Westlake anymore. Shifts that traffic to 2nd, 3rd, and 5th.
8. It's about 310 feet from Pike to Pine, so that times two lanes increases Westlake Center Park by about 12400 square feet (or more than 1/4 acre).
What you'd need:
1. Cut the road in half for number of lanes.
2. Convert 4th between at least the stadiums and Denny to 2-way traffic.
3. Bar any traffic but buses on 4th between Pike/Pine from 5am-11p daily.
4. Extend Westlake Park east toward Century Square.
5. Shift at least 25%-30% of bus routes from 1st, 2nd and 3rd to 4th.
5a. Shift more lines later, if it can be supported by volume.
6. Create prominent signage directing people from Westlake Center to Westlake Station.
7. Open up licensing for street vendors in Westlake Center.
8. You could have 1-8 buses there during the day on almost any traffic light cycle. You think those stores won't appreciate THAT level of foot traffic brought in?
Benefits:
1. Puts a majority of the downtown transit within a 1/2 block of Westlake Station and the downtown bus tunnel.
2. Breaks the clusters of buses on 1st and 3rd especially, putting them in their own dedicated space.
3. Creates a new downtown space that by default will have HEAVY foot traffic.
4. Makes the park bigger.
5. Drives all the commuters from outlying areas into the literal guts of the shopping district.
6. Puts all the commuters directly onto the bus tunnel system.
7. Will lighten the traffic on 4th Avenue--road diet. You won't be able to use it during the day as a cross-town route without turning off at Westlake anymore. Shifts that traffic to 2nd, 3rd, and 5th.
8. It's about 310 feet from Pike to Pine, so that times two lanes increases Westlake Center Park by about 12400 square feet (or more than 1/4 acre).
7
Vancouver does this on Granville St as the part of the Granville Entertainment District -- not sure how often the street closures occur.
8
Oh, and I don't think we should close Pike permanently between Broadway and 12. At night, on weekends.
9
Most of the areas of Broadway that are closing permanently are HUGELY busy. During the weekend evenings, I never see the sheer density of people on Pike/Pine that I have ever seen on Broadway in New York. Hell, only during CHBP have I ever seen anywhere close to that density.
Not that it won't work or can't work...but there's no real reason for it. Maybe if it were ever crammed with people or there were more car/pedestrian accidents, I could see it. But, walking is easy, no accidents, and the huge "bar push" people gripe about doesn't actually happen there with any real amount of intensity. Not like trying to get around Times Square at ANY time of EVERY day.
Not that it won't work or can't work...but there's no real reason for it. Maybe if it were ever crammed with people or there were more car/pedestrian accidents, I could see it. But, walking is easy, no accidents, and the huge "bar push" people gripe about doesn't actually happen there with any real amount of intensity. Not like trying to get around Times Square at ANY time of EVERY day.
10
@3 FTW.
I'd go for your suggestion to close 10th or 11th on one condition: that the closures not restrict delivery vehicles, garbage/recycling trucks and emergency responders from accessing those streets. Because, I am not (and I'd wager neither would any of the other businesses on those streets) interested in hauling several hundreds of pounds of bulk janitorial supplies, or cases of beer, wine & soft drinks two or three blocks on a regular basis, just so that some half-drunk club-hopper can walk down the middle of an otherwise empty street.
I'd go for your suggestion to close 10th or 11th on one condition: that the closures not restrict delivery vehicles, garbage/recycling trucks and emergency responders from accessing those streets. Because, I am not (and I'd wager neither would any of the other businesses on those streets) interested in hauling several hundreds of pounds of bulk janitorial supplies, or cases of beer, wine & soft drinks two or three blocks on a regular basis, just so that some half-drunk club-hopper can walk down the middle of an otherwise empty street.
11
@6,
Between this and your fantastical "plans" for the bus tunnel, thank God you have no say in transit planning. Ever noticed who and what hangs out at Westlake Park all day, every day? You'd be extending that mess, effectively castrating commerce downtown.
Between this and your fantastical "plans" for the bus tunnel, thank God you have no say in transit planning. Ever noticed who and what hangs out at Westlake Park all day, every day? You'd be extending that mess, effectively castrating commerce downtown.
13
We tried this before. Remember? Westlake? It sucked. They got rid of it not because the cars had to get through but because the result was incredibly stupid-looking and unfunctional.
Pedestrianized streets are kind of stupid. In American-style grid blocks, you just end up with two unconnected strip malls on either side, with no traffic -- no ANY KIND of traffic.
Your eye-rolling "Seattle is unlike every other place in the world" anti-argument is tiresome, and ignores the particularities of place -- including particularities of interest that Broadway in New York has in spades, but we largely do not.
The problem with closing Pike has nothing to do with interfering with traffic flow and everything to do with the kind of urban space you're trying to create. A pedestrianized urban space like Glasgow, or most British city centers, can very easily become a sewer of pissing and vomiting twenty-somethings, like most British city centers. A better comparison for Seattle than megalopolises like London or New York is the similarly-sized Bristol, where Maciej Dakowicz took these famous photographs: http://www.flickr.com/photos/maciejdakow…
Is that the kind of thing you're going for? Neat-o.
Concrete parks are pretty much the exact opposite of urbanism. In a giant, dense city like New York, that already has an infinity of urbanism crowding in on every side, maybe it can work, but here -- well, where are all these park-goers supposed to be coming from? What are they supposed to do? Stand around and admire each other?
Pedestrianized streets are kind of stupid. In American-style grid blocks, you just end up with two unconnected strip malls on either side, with no traffic -- no ANY KIND of traffic.
Your eye-rolling "Seattle is unlike every other place in the world" anti-argument is tiresome, and ignores the particularities of place -- including particularities of interest that Broadway in New York has in spades, but we largely do not.
The problem with closing Pike has nothing to do with interfering with traffic flow and everything to do with the kind of urban space you're trying to create. A pedestrianized urban space like Glasgow, or most British city centers, can very easily become a sewer of pissing and vomiting twenty-somethings, like most British city centers. A better comparison for Seattle than megalopolises like London or New York is the similarly-sized Bristol, where Maciej Dakowicz took these famous photographs: http://www.flickr.com/photos/maciejdakow…
Is that the kind of thing you're going for? Neat-o.
Concrete parks are pretty much the exact opposite of urbanism. In a giant, dense city like New York, that already has an infinity of urbanism crowding in on every side, maybe it can work, but here -- well, where are all these park-goers supposed to be coming from? What are they supposed to do? Stand around and admire each other?
14
Dan, you're comparing the foot traffic of Times Square to Seattle's Pike/Pine corridor? Ok, then.
Whether or not spreading out Pike/Pine's crowds onto the street will destroy its ambiance is debatable, but your comparisons are totally irrelevant to that debate.
Whether or not spreading out Pike/Pine's crowds onto the street will destroy its ambiance is debatable, but your comparisons are totally irrelevant to that debate.
15
@7 My son said Granville had been closed to traffic all summer, and just recently opened up to traffic again, he thought the no-cars zone was great, but then he's an urban kid who doesn't own a car. Here in Calgary, Stephen Avenue is closed to traffic downtown during the day, it's great, lots of outdoor seating for the restaurants and pubs, really pleasant to walk around. They open it to cars at night, but given it's too cold to walk around outside after dark for most of the year here, it doesn't seem to be an inconvenience.
16
I lived in Nashville for a # of years and they would close the area where most of the bars were on Fri and Sat nights from about 6pm - 2am and I found it a lot more inviting to go and be a part of. No worries about getting run over but there were the big gangs of frat dudes hanging out. I'd love to give this a try up on the Hill and see how it works. I doubt there are any serious concerns that Pike, betweem Broadway and 12th, is in danger of becoming an abandoned public park if we shut traffic down for a few hours each weekend.
17
in Swansea, Wales, a city with a population a bit lower than Tacoma, they closed off two blocks of Wind Street, the city's big booze/restaurant row at something like 6 or 7pm, nightly.
18
Don't forget the Summer Streets program in NYC. Taking my bike out for a spin on Park Ave is one of my favorite things to do in the summer here! I hear that they are looking to expand the program...
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/summerstreet…
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/summerstreet…
19
Jeez, Fnarf, no-car zones aren't destined to be vomitoriums. Compare Seattle to Calgary, then: Both smallish urban centres (1 million here), lots of people who rely on their cars, unlike London or New York, and it works for us. We do have areas that have lots of bars/passed out idiots/etc, but not on the no-car streets. Stephen Avenue has a museum, art galleries, shops, restaurants, pubs, and every time I've ever been there, it is full of people (office workers on lunch breaks, tourists, mums with kids) just doing their thing, not vomiting.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2194/2758…
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2194/2758…
20
I don't have any particularly strong opinions about trying an experiment like this, but I do think it's a false comparison between Capitol Hill and (nearly) Times Square, the primary reason being a lack of alternate routes like the subway. If there are easy ways to park or otherwise commute to outlying stations and relatively cheaply transit into a hugely pedestrian-trafficked area, that's a different thing than attempting such a maneuver in an area without it.
I mean, try it - sure - what's the harm? We tried closing ONE BLOCK of Pine already (probably the most obvious one given pedestrian activity and bus alternatives - between 4th & 5th Avenues next to Westlake Center) and ultimately it didn't work out, but HEY, times could have changed and maybe every neighborhood is different and maybe CapHill can afford to shoulder more of its nightlife on locals or those who don't mind circling for hours or picking up their dates on buses.
What I DO know is that a set of cones and a couple of traffic officers for a few months is probably cheaper than making physical changes to the street - the important thing would be that this test go on long enough for it to outlast "festival coping mechanisms". People can fume and complain when there are blocked-off roads for a weekend or a random summer night, but it would probably take a month or two to get a sense of what living without this road would REALLY be like.
It's easy to imagine all the wild, wonderful things we could do with a windfall of free extra pedestrian space - it's like imagining what you'd do with a wad of found money, ignoring whatever life-convenience you gave up to get it. Again, go ahead and try it and see what happens. The hard part will be, like everything in Seattle, trying to correct for the overly-loud complains from the monied vocal folks that seems to be against ANY transit or pedestrian-centered change...
More...
I mean, try it - sure - what's the harm? We tried closing ONE BLOCK of Pine already (probably the most obvious one given pedestrian activity and bus alternatives - between 4th & 5th Avenues next to Westlake Center) and ultimately it didn't work out, but HEY, times could have changed and maybe every neighborhood is different and maybe CapHill can afford to shoulder more of its nightlife on locals or those who don't mind circling for hours or picking up their dates on buses.
What I DO know is that a set of cones and a couple of traffic officers for a few months is probably cheaper than making physical changes to the street - the important thing would be that this test go on long enough for it to outlast "festival coping mechanisms". People can fume and complain when there are blocked-off roads for a weekend or a random summer night, but it would probably take a month or two to get a sense of what living without this road would REALLY be like.
It's easy to imagine all the wild, wonderful things we could do with a windfall of free extra pedestrian space - it's like imagining what you'd do with a wad of found money, ignoring whatever life-convenience you gave up to get it. Again, go ahead and try it and see what happens. The hard part will be, like everything in Seattle, trying to correct for the overly-loud complains from the monied vocal folks that seems to be against ANY transit or pedestrian-centered change...
21
Might want to try something like this first:
http://sundaystreetssf.com/
As others have noted, Broadway in NYC sees millions of pedestrians a year, Pike probably just a few thousand.
http://sundaystreetssf.com/
As others have noted, Broadway in NYC sees millions of pedestrians a year, Pike probably just a few thousand.
22
Dan, meet Sally. Sally, Dan.
http://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2010/0…
Council member Clark floats idea for year-round Pike/Pine block party
Clark said the idea is inspired by the Austin, Texas bar scene. On 6th Street in Austin, the city blocks off popular downtown streets for bar foot traffic starting at 11 PM and going through last call. 6th Street is notorious for its street parties, but it also plays a successful part in the city’s economy, Clark said.
“Do we have the conditions, or desire to, shut down the street on Broadway or Pike and Pine? I have no idea. I’m not sure if this idea will go any place, or if it’s interesting at all,” said Clark. “Would it bring more vibrancy or energy to the neighborhood, or would it be more trouble than it’s worth?”
Clark is exploring the idea of setting up police barricades down the Pike/Pine corridor, blocking cars from entering and allowing people to move freely down the streets.
http://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2010/0…
Council member Clark floats idea for year-round Pike/Pine block party
Clark said the idea is inspired by the Austin, Texas bar scene. On 6th Street in Austin, the city blocks off popular downtown streets for bar foot traffic starting at 11 PM and going through last call. 6th Street is notorious for its street parties, but it also plays a successful part in the city’s economy, Clark said.
“Do we have the conditions, or desire to, shut down the street on Broadway or Pike and Pine? I have no idea. I’m not sure if this idea will go any place, or if it’s interesting at all,” said Clark. “Would it bring more vibrancy or energy to the neighborhood, or would it be more trouble than it’s worth?”
Clark is exploring the idea of setting up police barricades down the Pike/Pine corridor, blocking cars from entering and allowing people to move freely down the streets.
23
I remember Westlake -- it was dumb. Not asking for Westlake. Pike Street on Friday and Saturday night is impassible by car. So why not close it on Friday and Saturday night, let food trucks set up in the middle of the street, set out tables? It would be a destination nightlife amenity that it cost the city NOTHING to create -- nothing besides a few sawhorses at either end of Pike between 12th and Broadway.
It seems like such a no-brainer.
It seems like such a no-brainer.
24
@10 COMTE has a very good point. That's what they do in France, Italy, Spain, and German streets closed to traffic.
25
@13: Vibrant night life in Cardiff, I see! Terrific pics. And in all those many shots where you see someone sitting or lying on the pavement--well somebody probably urinated there just a few minutes before.
26
Well, regardless of the density comparisons, closing 10th & 11th would be just plain stupid, Dan! Look out your window. A large chunk of the neighborhood's parking (back-in angle) is on 10th & 11th between Pike & Pine.
If you want a practical test case, close Pike BETWEEN 10th & 11th on a Saturday night and see how that goes.
Then, if the world doesn't come to an end as a result, you can try Fridays too and/or expand it to 12th on the east end and the Shell Station/Via Tribunali on the west. (With a taxi station at Pike & Broadway, in front of the frame shop.)
If you want a practical test case, close Pike BETWEEN 10th & 11th on a Saturday night and see how that goes.
Then, if the world doesn't come to an end as a result, you can try Fridays too and/or expand it to 12th on the east end and the Shell Station/Via Tribunali on the west. (With a taxi station at Pike & Broadway, in front of the frame shop.)
27
In downtown Minneapolis there's a several block stretch of Nicollet Avenue which is officially known as Nicollet mall. It's not completely shut off to vehicles as buses, cabs and police are allowed, so you're still supposed to use the crosswalks, and it has wider sidewalks. But it's a nice area for pedestrians in general because of the reduced traffic, and I personally like that it's still usable by mass transit and the cops.
28
And it works like gang-busters in San Francisco. Check out our Sunday Streets program here: http://sundaystreetssf.com/
29
@23 - If this is just for drinking purposes, how would you react it it became the b&t frat house #16 described? It's not guaranteed to happen, but it's likely.
A main eating/drinking destination closed to traffic really does sound fun, but is there really enough people you'd want to party with to sustain this sort of thing? Or is having a few favorite, relatively low-key places to eat and drink more valuable?
A main eating/drinking destination closed to traffic really does sound fun, but is there really enough people you'd want to party with to sustain this sort of thing? Or is having a few favorite, relatively low-key places to eat and drink more valuable?
30
What I don't understand is why this doesn't work in the US, according to some people. I refuse to believe that it's because of the grid, there are a fair bunch of European cities that have been burned down and rebuilt in a grid pattern - and they STILL have pedestrian streets, and manage fine. Like 10 said, delivery and trash kind of traffic must still be allowed. Why is it so horrid and doomed to failure (in general, not just this example)?
31
"a lot of the neighborhood's parking"
see, there's your problem. People to lazy to walk, bike, or take the bus.
see, there's your problem. People to lazy to walk, bike, or take the bus.
32
closing it off to traffic works great - just look at how awesome Occidental is from Jackson to Yesler.
34
What Will @24 fails to recognize, because he is an idiot, is that all of the successful pedestrianized central areas in Spain, Italy, France, and Germany (and the UK, and Sweden, and Croatia, ad infinitum) are in areas where the streets were platted BEFORE AUTOMOBILES, in some cases a thousand years before automobiles. Thus these streets are human-scaled, and pedestrianizing them is a something of a return to an older use. They are designed explicitly for easy access to both sides, down crooked corners, extremely short blocks, T and Y intersections, and so on.
There are of course innumerable examples; one of my favorites is odd little Albert Street in Kirkwall, in the Orkneys.
None of those areas have any relevance whatever to Pike Street in Seattle, where the streets were originally platted according to the needs of not automobiles to be sure, but horse-drawn goods wagons. This is the Western model. It's also not relevant to older cities built to European plans in the Eastern US, OR TO LATER AUTO-BASED DEVELOPMENT IN EUROPE. Pedestrianized streets in the innumerable tower-block areas of Liverpool, Turin, Sevilla, etc. etc. are unbelievable crime and decay magnets.
Pedestrianized streets can sometimes work in the US, but the overall experience, going back to the late 60s, has been overwhelmingly negative. See one list here: http://www.urbanreviewstl.com/2009/11/no…, from a guy who did his master's on the topic and is dead set against them.
As he says in another post (http://www.urbanreviewstl.com/2009/08/th…), "Just because an idea works in one location doesn't mean it will work in another." Shocking, I know, since all places are exactly the same, according to Dan.
Dan also cites Chicago as a place where pedestrianized streets are "a no-brainer". Truer than he realizes; when State Street was pedestrianized in the 70s, and immediately went into a steep decline, which was almost instantaneously reversed when it was reopened to traffic in 1996. Scores of American cities, INCLUDING SEATTLE, have similar stories.
Pedestrianized streets: bad for cities. Bad for Pike Street.
More...
There are of course innumerable examples; one of my favorites is odd little Albert Street in Kirkwall, in the Orkneys.
None of those areas have any relevance whatever to Pike Street in Seattle, where the streets were originally platted according to the needs of not automobiles to be sure, but horse-drawn goods wagons. This is the Western model. It's also not relevant to older cities built to European plans in the Eastern US, OR TO LATER AUTO-BASED DEVELOPMENT IN EUROPE. Pedestrianized streets in the innumerable tower-block areas of Liverpool, Turin, Sevilla, etc. etc. are unbelievable crime and decay magnets.
Pedestrianized streets can sometimes work in the US, but the overall experience, going back to the late 60s, has been overwhelmingly negative. See one list here: http://www.urbanreviewstl.com/2009/11/no…, from a guy who did his master's on the topic and is dead set against them.
As he says in another post (http://www.urbanreviewstl.com/2009/08/th…), "Just because an idea works in one location doesn't mean it will work in another." Shocking, I know, since all places are exactly the same, according to Dan.
Dan also cites Chicago as a place where pedestrianized streets are "a no-brainer". Truer than he realizes; when State Street was pedestrianized in the 70s, and immediately went into a steep decline, which was almost instantaneously reversed when it was reopened to traffic in 1996. Scores of American cities, INCLUDING SEATTLE, have similar stories.
Pedestrianized streets: bad for cities. Bad for Pike Street.
35
As a Pike/Pine resident, I don't like it. My immediate question, if Dan or anyone can answer please, is WHY? Why do you want this? Because it's needed? Please state your case.
36
Dear God, Fnarf, those concrete sidewalk canopies in that Urban Review link are pure eye rape. I need a shower now.
37
Just sawhorses, eh Dan? Who pays for the overtime on the parking enforcement? Who cleans up the trash-strewn streets?
Pike is very passable on Saturday nights, I actually drive up the street almost every Saturday night, and I'm not alone- taxis thrive on Pike. Free parking ensures sold-out shows and wait lists at the restaurants.
It really is a No-brainer. As in, you have no brains if you like this idea.
Pike is very passable on Saturday nights, I actually drive up the street almost every Saturday night, and I'm not alone- taxis thrive on Pike. Free parking ensures sold-out shows and wait lists at the restaurants.
It really is a No-brainer. As in, you have no brains if you like this idea.
38
Although that gridded monstrosity in Salinas is about as bad. It looks as if someone started to construct a baseball stadium and gave up halfway through.
39
First of all, Fnarf, I don't think you can blame the crime in certain parts of the UK on pedestrianized streets. The UK has a huge problem with binge-drinking idiots in certain areas, but not because of its street layout.
Also, you seem to have this attitude that although this idea works elsewhere, it won't work here (the western part of the country is too new, too auto-reliant.) To generalize, this type of attitude is what holds you guys back in other areas as well, like same-sex marriage, DADT, etc. If relatively young areas of Canada can manage these things (pedestrianized streets, same-sex marriage) what is holding you back? Maybe I'm over-simplifying, but there seems to be a pervasive "can't do" feeling about change where you are. It's all well and good for those wacky Europeans and Canadians, but it'll never work here, because we do things the way we've always done them. Our streets are wide to accommodate cars, therefore we can't modify them after the fact to appeal to people on foot. Calgary and Vancouver's streets were built wide to accommodate cars, but we can block them off and people love it. Yeah, okay...
Also, you seem to have this attitude that although this idea works elsewhere, it won't work here (the western part of the country is too new, too auto-reliant.) To generalize, this type of attitude is what holds you guys back in other areas as well, like same-sex marriage, DADT, etc. If relatively young areas of Canada can manage these things (pedestrianized streets, same-sex marriage) what is holding you back? Maybe I'm over-simplifying, but there seems to be a pervasive "can't do" feeling about change where you are. It's all well and good for those wacky Europeans and Canadians, but it'll never work here, because we do things the way we've always done them. Our streets are wide to accommodate cars, therefore we can't modify them after the fact to appeal to people on foot. Calgary and Vancouver's streets were built wide to accommodate cars, but we can block them off and people love it. Yeah, okay...
41
Let a dozen drunk Indians out with open knives and sell it to the cruise ship operators as a real wild west experience:
"Princess Cruises: If the gangbangers and Indians don't get you, our buffet will. Get scalped in downtown Seattle!"
"Princess Cruises: If the gangbangers and Indians don't get you, our buffet will. Get scalped in downtown Seattle!"
42
Dan, they tried this in Chicago. I am sure you remember. It was called the State Street Mall. Big Fail. But that doesn't mean that you can't try it; if it doesn't work, go back to cars.
43
@34 you lying piece of Shiite - Seattle was platted before cars you ignoramus.
Seriously, try thinking before posting. It's my job to post before thinking, you lack the inexperience and intestinal fortiscue.
Seriously, try thinking before posting. It's my job to post before thinking, you lack the inexperience and intestinal fortiscue.
44
Dan was too busy screaming 'breeders' at my girlfriend and I outside the Manhole on Halsted to see what was going on down in State St.
45
@43, you don't even know how to swear properly. Nor can you read. If you read what I wrote, you will plainly see that said exactly what Seattle streets were platted for, which was vehicles much larger than cars. So fuck off with your nitwit offtopic shitbrained objections. Fuck off forever. Fuck off down a fucking well, lardbucket.
@39, on the contrary, what I'm on guard against is poorly-thought-out urban planning ideas. We DO know what works on our streets, but the people who plan new ones don't get it, and apparently never will. the lessons were all learned starting around a hundred years ago, and were forgotten by about 1960. Read Jane Jacobs for more on why.
I can't speak to Calgary's experience because I know nothing about it, but Vancouver's liveliest streets are not pedestrianized. Only the one is, and that street works better as a bus zone.
Robson Street would not be improved by pedestrianizing it. Neither would Commercial. Neither would Pike in Seattle.
Reducing car monopolies on our streets is a positive good, but that's not the same thing as removing them entirely. Cars are not evil; they are necessary. What's evil is allowing them untrammeled free rein. Tamed auto use is a positive good to society and to lively street interactions.
In short, cars are not bad for streets; only FAST-MOVING cars are bad for streets.
Dan's revised proposal makes much more sense than what he started off talking about, but it leaves a lot of expensive questions unanswered: where are the food carts going to come from, and where are they going to go most of the time when they're not needed? In Portland, the problem kind of solves itself, because the food carts go into the parking spaces when they're not needed, but they're open for biz during the work week.
I would also like to see some analysis that opening up the street to loud partygoers doesn't help one kind of business (bars and restaurants) while killing off all others. Retail is in a bad way in this city, in case you haven't noticed. It's all about balance.
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@39, on the contrary, what I'm on guard against is poorly-thought-out urban planning ideas. We DO know what works on our streets, but the people who plan new ones don't get it, and apparently never will. the lessons were all learned starting around a hundred years ago, and were forgotten by about 1960. Read Jane Jacobs for more on why.
I can't speak to Calgary's experience because I know nothing about it, but Vancouver's liveliest streets are not pedestrianized. Only the one is, and that street works better as a bus zone.
Robson Street would not be improved by pedestrianizing it. Neither would Commercial. Neither would Pike in Seattle.
Reducing car monopolies on our streets is a positive good, but that's not the same thing as removing them entirely. Cars are not evil; they are necessary. What's evil is allowing them untrammeled free rein. Tamed auto use is a positive good to society and to lively street interactions.
In short, cars are not bad for streets; only FAST-MOVING cars are bad for streets.
Dan's revised proposal makes much more sense than what he started off talking about, but it leaves a lot of expensive questions unanswered: where are the food carts going to come from, and where are they going to go most of the time when they're not needed? In Portland, the problem kind of solves itself, because the food carts go into the parking spaces when they're not needed, but they're open for biz during the work week.
I would also like to see some analysis that opening up the street to loud partygoers doesn't help one kind of business (bars and restaurants) while killing off all others. Retail is in a bad way in this city, in case you haven't noticed. It's all about balance.
46
Austin, TX. regularly closes part of 6th St., the heart of the local club scene. It reduces traffic accidents and seems to encourage people to use alternatives to driving to get to the area.
50
@45 We have the opposite of what Dan is suggesting, a street that is only for foot traffic during the day, and where people can park at night. Honestly, it is hopping every day, except when it's -40. I don't know anything about Seattle's various demographics, but the sense I have is that the Hummer Moms shop on the outskirts of the city at the big box stores, and our urban centre caters to city people almost exclusively (and tourists.) For whatever reason, there aren't any obnoxious frat boys barfing in the gutter, perhaps because the restaurants are expensive, and the pubs, like the James Joyce, cater to the over 30 crowd more than the guys who are looking for body shots. So, perhaps the answer is to have the area be unique in the first place (there is one Betsey Johnson shop in Calgary, and it's on Stephen Ave.) and the business/urban crowd will follow. Having things be weather-related makes sense, too. My son, who lives in Vancouver, loved having Granville closed to cars this summer, it was packed with buskers and tons of people. Don't you guys have a million street meat carts like we have? They could just trundle over to your street on the weekends, or whenever they're needed.
51
@50, surely you jest. Seattle's got about ten street food carts total, hidden various places. It's almost impossible to license the things, and if you have one no one wants you near because they think you'll steal their business. We're uptight puritan-Norwegian Seattle, not one of your commie pinko Canadian cities like Calgary or Portland, Oregon. Basically, if there's even a remote chance that someone might make a penny profit on something, it's illegal.
52
That truly sucks, Fnarf. Well, that and the lutefisk. Arg, Norwegians. Our Norwegian friends made us drink aquavit the last time they were here, although I told them kerosene would have been much cheaper.
53
I haven't gone drinking on the Hill since I gave up drunk driving. Closing the street off, setting up food trucks, etc., might make that Boschian nightmare of a bus ride worth it.
54
years ago, tiny little Ithaca, NY closed off a couple blocks in their downtown. It's awesome. It really makes the bars, shops and restaurants in the area a wonderful place to be.
55
Dan and Fnarf are both correct, inasmuch as they both seem to realize that pedestrian-street initiatives must be evaluated on a site-specific basis and carefully tailored (limited hours vs. permanent, lane reductions vs. blocked through-passage) to its needs.
Vancouver's West End, in which streets technically remain open to automobiles, but with concrete barriers occasionally interrupting through-passage, manages to instill quiet in a high-rise residential neighborhood, but without the decreased sense of safety that a total ban on cars would have wrought.
New York's carefully incised through-lanes along Broadway seem wildly successful! (Note that they've been replaced with something rather than nothing.)
Boston's completely pedestrianized Downtown Crossing, a major transit junction and anachronistic department-store retail mecca, seems logical when filled with daytime throngs, but becomes desolate and sketchy after 6:30. Major multi-modal thoroughfares two or three blocks away are alive with pedestrian activity.
Meanwhile, every already-faltering podunk city that tried pedestrianizing its downtown in the '70s to compete with suburban shopping malls managed to kill off whatever remained:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Mall
http://www.ci.buffalo.ny.us/Home/City_De…
Vancouver's West End, in which streets technically remain open to automobiles, but with concrete barriers occasionally interrupting through-passage, manages to instill quiet in a high-rise residential neighborhood, but without the decreased sense of safety that a total ban on cars would have wrought.
New York's carefully incised through-lanes along Broadway seem wildly successful! (Note that they've been replaced with something rather than nothing.)
Boston's completely pedestrianized Downtown Crossing, a major transit junction and anachronistic department-store retail mecca, seems logical when filled with daytime throngs, but becomes desolate and sketchy after 6:30. Major multi-modal thoroughfares two or three blocks away are alive with pedestrian activity.
Meanwhile, every already-faltering podunk city that tried pedestrianizing its downtown in the '70s to compete with suburban shopping malls managed to kill off whatever remained:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Mall
http://www.ci.buffalo.ny.us/Home/City_De…
57
Bogotá, Colombia (hardly an example of human-scale city design, I'll tell you) has had remarkable success in opening its main thoroughfares exclusively to bike/foot traffic from 7am - 2pm on Sundays and holidays (the "ciclovĂa")...for the last 35 years. It's a model that's been copied the world over. They also shut down 7th Ave. (one of the principle streets downtown) for several blocks every Friday after 5pm, in what's known as the "septimazo." Let's do it!
http://tinyurl.com/342dp2h
http://tinyurl.com/24f5qo2
http://tinyurl.com/342dp2h
http://tinyurl.com/24f5qo2
58
The pedestrian-only block of Pine downtown was re-opened to cars due to pressure from Nordstrom, not because it was unpopular with the public.
59
I don't know why everyone's not for this! Anything that encourages people to find other means of conveyance other than their selfish convenient cars is a great idea!
60
Because, @59, as has been explained thoroughly throughout this thread, many improperly sited or poorly executed pedestrian only zones have become either:
A) sketchy and unsafe thanks to the absence of consistent through-movement (thus actually reducing pedestrian usage and killing businesses); or
B) overbearing party/puke zones on weekend evenings (and abandoned at all other times).
Try doing a modicum of research some time, or at the very list clicking a link, before wondering all Seattle-style why the thoughts of the informed don't mimic your knee-jerk reactions!
A) sketchy and unsafe thanks to the absence of consistent through-movement (thus actually reducing pedestrian usage and killing businesses); or
B) overbearing party/puke zones on weekend evenings (and abandoned at all other times).
Try doing a modicum of research some time, or at the very list clicking a link, before wondering all Seattle-style why the thoughts of the informed don't mimic your knee-jerk reactions!
61
I would have thought my post addressed this issue, i don't care about puke zones(although i think those have been thoroughly debunked as reasons to oppose this proposition) nor do i give-a-shit about pedestrains, i just want people to think "if i want to go somewhere downtown or caphill or queen anne or any-the-fuck-where maybe i can get there without my goddamn motor-vehicle, that's all. Is that a radical belief? Am i stepping outta bounds here?
62
@61: Your problem, then, is with this city's head-up-its-ass approach to public transit -- bottom-of-the-barrel current system, "improvements" like RapidRide that won't be rapid, and a subway system under construction with stops three miles apart so as to do nothing for in-city mobility -- and not with the presence of multiple modes of movement on a single stretch of street.
Banning cars from a block or two of road won't actually prevent people from choosing to drive to an area, especially if alternative modes are ineffective.
But as many of the examples on this thread attest, some urban areas have been decimated by badly conceived pedestrian zones so thoroughly that there's nothing, aside from drug dealers, left to come to!
Banning cars from a block or two of road won't actually prevent people from choosing to drive to an area, especially if alternative modes are ineffective.
But as many of the examples on this thread attest, some urban areas have been decimated by badly conceived pedestrian zones so thoroughly that there's nothing, aside from drug dealers, left to come to!
63
Way back in 1968, Minneapolis -- a city more comparable than NYC in size to Seattle -- converted about ten blocks of downtown Nicollet Avenue to Nicollet Mall, allowing buses but banning cars. It's been extremely popular.
I can't imagine Seattle doing anything like this. And if Seattle did, it would probably suck.
I can't imagine Seattle doing anything like this. And if Seattle did, it would probably suck.
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