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News & ArtsThursday, March 3, 2011
Health I Just Spent a Week In Canada...
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 9:55 AM
...and it's not like there's a donut shortage up there. So what could explain this:
American adults have a significantly higher rate of obesity than their neighbors to the north, a new study says. About 24 percent of Canadians are obese compared to more than 34 percent of Americans, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention study released Wednesday. Researchers looked at height and weight data taken in surveys in both countries during 2007-09.
The two countries have different racial demographics. The United States has more black and Hispanic people, and both have higher rates of obesity. But even looking solely at white people, there was still a big difference — a 26 percent obesity rate in Canada compared to 33 percent in the United States. It's not clear why that is, said study-co-author Cynthia Ogden, an epidemiologist with the CDC's National Center for Health Statistics.
The report goes on to state that there's "little difference" between Canadian and American childhood obesity rates—15.5% down here, 12% up there—but, um, math is hard and everything, but difference looks kinda significant to me.
But while we're casting around looking for explanations, I'd like to toss this out there: Canadian sports culture seems to center around getting off your ass and participating, while American sports culture seems to center around sitting on your ass and watching. Maybe it's that?
3
Ohh goodie, a Dan post about obesity. I can't wait to see what the 800th commenter has to say about it! I'll go hide behind the chocolate covered barricades until the war is over.
As for significant differneces, the quote is:
Something being statistically significant means that there is a reasonably low probability that the difference happened by chance. What is "reasonable" is a number factor that is usually very low. According to the model in the study, a difference of 3.5% is too low to assure that it didn't happen by chance.
As for significant differneces, the quote is:
The childhood obesity rate was 15.5 percent in the United States and 12 percent in Canada, but the difference was not statistically significant
Something being statistically significant means that there is a reasonably low probability that the difference happened by chance. What is "reasonable" is a number factor that is usually very low. According to the model in the study, a difference of 3.5% is too low to assure that it didn't happen by chance.
4
it's also that they have a European lifestyle of taking public transportation and walking.
Most Americans exercise in the kitchen and grocery store.
Most Americans exercise in the kitchen and grocery store.
6
Good point: Most Canadian kids play hockey all winter (if it's not the organized kind, it's "shinny" hockey in someone's flooded backyard, or on a quiet street)...there definitely isn't a feeling of "Oh, we have to stay indoors, it's too cold out," kids run around in hoodies right up til it's -20. And my sense is that there isn't quite as big a junk food culture up here..rural people probably eat more typically midwestern food (potatoes, casseroles, etc.) but there's still a lot of home cooking going on. I don't think I've ever (and I mean ever) been at someone's house where they brought home a bucket of KFC. There's also less of a fear-based culture here, we don't automatically assume that if our kids are outside, they're going to get kidnapped, or if they walk home from school, that there's some "stranger danger."
(and donuts are treats, not lunch.)
(and donuts are treats, not lunch.)
8
And I found Canada did a lovely 2005 study that included a comparison of their national sport-participation rate (51% of adults, but dropping) with other nations'. The US adult rate they found at the time was 30% (also dropping.)
They were particularly concerned that Canadian youth participation was dropping fairly sharply, considering what that may mean for the future.
PDF available by clicking this link:
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/81-595-m/81…
They were particularly concerned that Canadian youth participation was dropping fairly sharply, considering what that may mean for the future.
PDF available by clicking this link:
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/81-595-m/81…
9
I wonder if the Gini Index disparity and the differences in industrial agriculture subsidies or sugar tariffs have anything to do with obesity. Maybe gas prices are higher there and Canadians walk or bicycle or have rapid transit instead of sitting in their cars for forty-plus minutes on a congested freeway during rush hour. Maybe there's been a "Participaction" campaign since the 1970s to get Canadians moving. Maybe Canada has a higher percentage of immigrants who've not yet been affected by grain-heavy diets.
I do know they have fast food restaurants, the ingredients and preparation of those fast foods are no healthier, and the incidence of cancer is higher.
I do know they have fast food restaurants, the ingredients and preparation of those fast foods are no healthier, and the incidence of cancer is higher.
10
Oh, re: what Dan and gus said, our kids get gym every day in high school...sweaty, dripping, gym class, "gym strip" [Canadian for gym clothes] that comes home smelling like a bunch of rank billy goats.
11
Canadians walk more, cities up there are more walkable/bikeable... Also, better access to healthcare... Also... Less zombie news and entertainment networks affixing mouth- breathers to their couches... Though maybe still a problem, just to a significantly lesser degree. Also, hockey, eh?
12
Question: What are the numbers for Canadian fast food and coffee shops?
As with many things that are an aspect of cultural expression, the obesity epidemic is not easily boiled down to one thing vs another. There are just too many elements at play.
As with many things that are an aspect of cultural expression, the obesity epidemic is not easily boiled down to one thing vs another. There are just too many elements at play.
13
Those numbers for America are skewed by the South. Seriously, they're the ones who are the most obese.
14
Maybe it has something to do with universal health care, which among other things leaves people with more money to spend on healthier food (which unfortunately costs more than donuts).
Armchair theorizing here, just like you, but I think there's probably a more profound class and income inequality link to obesity.
Armchair theorizing here, just like you, but I think there's probably a more profound class and income inequality link to obesity.
18
OMG FAT PEOPLE OMG FAT PEOPLE OMG FAT PEOPLE OMG FAT PEOPLE OMG FAT PEOPLE OMG FAT PEOPLE OMG FAT PEOPLE OMG FAT PEOPLE OMG FAT PEOPLE OMG FAT PEOPLE OMG FAT PEOPLE OMG FAT PEOPLE OMG FAT PEOPLE OMG FAT PEOPLE OMG FAT PEOPLE OMG FAT PEOPLE OMG FAT PEOPLE OMG FAT PEOPLE OMG FAT PEOPLE OMG FAT PEOPLE OMG FAT PEOPLE OMG FAT PEOPLE OMG FAT PEOPLE OMG FAT PEOPLE OMG FAT PEOPLE
19
The one article I read reminded me that the most popular Canadian staple is poutine. Maybe it's healtheir than I thought? I've never had it and I'm not likely to try it but I just wondered?
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5280 is getting close. If you compared, say, Washington to BC, you'd see a much nearer similarity. There's no Mississippi, Alabama, or Louisiana in Canada.
Sports? Bah. They watch hockey and football, we watch hockey and football. It doesn't have anything to do with sports.
Sports? Bah. They watch hockey and football, we watch hockey and football. It doesn't have anything to do with sports.
21
Maybe America's longstanding traditions about deep-fried-everything might have something to do with it.
Or maybe Canadian metabolisms have to work harder to fend off the cold weather in winter. We *need* the extra fat in our diets! ;)
That said, there are only about 3 places in Canada where it's actually *possible* to have a 45 minute commute on the freeway. The rest of our cities are too small for that.
Or maybe Canadian metabolisms have to work harder to fend off the cold weather in winter. We *need* the extra fat in our diets! ;)
That said, there are only about 3 places in Canada where it's actually *possible* to have a 45 minute commute on the freeway. The rest of our cities are too small for that.
23
despicable me...maybe in Quebec people are eating lots of poutine, but elsewhere? No, not at all. It's certainly not a staple.
Fnarf, sure we watch hockey, but our kids are outside in the winter, skiing, snowboarding, playing hockey, running their asses off in gym. I'm not saying it's the only factor in the obesity issue, but don'tcha be telling me what our kids are doing up here, dearest.
Fnarf, sure we watch hockey, but our kids are outside in the winter, skiing, snowboarding, playing hockey, running their asses off in gym. I'm not saying it's the only factor in the obesity issue, but don'tcha be telling me what our kids are doing up here, dearest.
24
It's really very simple -- they just haven't caught up to us yet.
In five or six years they'll be up to 36% in Canada too. But by then the U.S., overachieving world-leaders that we are, will have advanced even further and be pushing well into the 40-percentile!
Go USA! USA! USA!!!
In five or six years they'll be up to 36% in Canada too. But by then the U.S., overachieving world-leaders that we are, will have advanced even further and be pushing well into the 40-percentile!
Go USA! USA! USA!!!
25
Probably has more to do with their better chemical regulations. For example, they just declared BPA toxic, which causes obesity and is in all American canned food, cash receipts, cooler water bottles, etc. There are probably other obesity-causing chemicals they have more strictly regulated.
26
The USA is a country of EXCESS. Just look around you. If you don't see it, then there's something wrong with YOU & you're likely part of the problem.
27
We have a slightly better social safety net, and slightly better rules around food and packaging and things, so we have a slightly better obesity rate.
We have plenty of arm-chair hockey fans, so I doubt that's it.
We have plenty of arm-chair hockey fans, so I doubt that's it.
29
Couple of things:
Fast food consumption (2004 data): United States - $492 per capita, Canada - $387 per capita.
That seems like a big difference but... the US and Canada were ranked 1 and 2 globally. 3rd place Australia posted $279 per capita; 4th place UK was $199. So the US eats more fast food than Canada, but Canada still eats more than the rest of the world.
Regional differences (2010 data): Looking at just the border states, the US obesity rate is a hair over 26% - which is not that far off the Canadian rate. 5280 has it right @13: blame the South.
Poutine? I'm with Canuck - it is a distinct part of our food culture, but I wouldn't say it was dominant. For the most part, Canadians' fast food habits are pretty similar to Americans': burgers, fries, and doughnuts.
There is something to be said about portion sizes, though. This isn't so much a fast food thing but when you take a step up to casual dining (or whatever the hell you want to call it - I'm thinking Applebee's or Swiss Chalet) I have found - anecdotally - that there is a lot more food on the plate south of the border.
Fast food consumption (2004 data): United States - $492 per capita, Canada - $387 per capita.
That seems like a big difference but... the US and Canada were ranked 1 and 2 globally. 3rd place Australia posted $279 per capita; 4th place UK was $199. So the US eats more fast food than Canada, but Canada still eats more than the rest of the world.
Regional differences (2010 data): Looking at just the border states, the US obesity rate is a hair over 26% - which is not that far off the Canadian rate. 5280 has it right @13: blame the South.
Poutine? I'm with Canuck - it is a distinct part of our food culture, but I wouldn't say it was dominant. For the most part, Canadians' fast food habits are pretty similar to Americans': burgers, fries, and doughnuts.
There is something to be said about portion sizes, though. This isn't so much a fast food thing but when you take a step up to casual dining (or whatever the hell you want to call it - I'm thinking Applebee's or Swiss Chalet) I have found - anecdotally - that there is a lot more food on the plate south of the border.
30
No poutine in your routine, huh Canuck? I really need to get to Canada someday, it's something I have always wanted to do but haven't made it yet.
31
I live in Vancouver, and I don't see a lot of really fat people. I went to a sci-fi/fantasy convention and I think that all of Vancouver's fat people were there. It was creepy.
32
Obviously it's genetics. Canadians just naturally have faster metabolisms. They eat whatever they want and don't gain an ounce, while Americans eat only celery and water, and gain 50 pounds.
33
despicable me, you need to get up here! (and no, no poutine! I stay away from the beavertails, too, but make up for it with caesars...)
35
Actually Canuck, I have been to Canada. When we went on an Alaskan cruise we flew to Seattle and took a bus to Vancouver to board our ship. I don't really think that counts, it's not like I got to walk around and see the city and sights. We made it to the dock in time to check in and board for departure. Then we flew home from Alaska so I couldn't even see it on the return trip.
Someday soon I hope!
Someday soon I hope!
36
@ 23 - Maybe NOT in Alberta, you mean... I spent a week in Vancouver about 8 years ago, and it looked to me like poutine was pretty popular there.
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Two thoughts:
1) The walkability of Canadian cities has already been mentioned. It's also worth pointing out that a much larger proportion of Canada lives in those cities than do Americans in comparable cities here. If you compared Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver to, say, New York, Chicago, and San Francisco, I'd bet the differences would be much smaller. I also wonder what it would look like if you compared rural Manitoba to rural Indiana (for example.)
2) Shivering burns a lot of calories.
1) The walkability of Canadian cities has already been mentioned. It's also worth pointing out that a much larger proportion of Canada lives in those cities than do Americans in comparable cities here. If you compared Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver to, say, New York, Chicago, and San Francisco, I'd bet the differences would be much smaller. I also wonder what it would look like if you compared rural Manitoba to rural Indiana (for example.)
2) Shivering burns a lot of calories.
39
Ricardo, seriously? I guess we'd have to ask someone who lives there, but I'm in Vancouver a fair bit, and although there's a coffee shop on every corner and every other food place sells sushi, I have never seen anyone eating poutine, or even seen it on a menu (but, to be fair, I never really look, either.) Perhaps I'm so fixated on eating all the fresh seafood I don't get in Alberta that the idea of cheese and gravy on fries doesn't register on my particular radar...
40
This may be a long shot, but I wonder if it has anything to do with children's soda consumption rate in the U.S. vs. Canada?
I don't know if the rates are different, but I'm fairly sure children drinking soda is one of the leading obesity issues in the U.S.
I don't know if the rates are different, but I'm fairly sure children drinking soda is one of the leading obesity issues in the U.S.
41
@ 39 — I eat poutine all the time. For those in Toronto, Smoke's Poutinerie is fantastical. I also make a Tim Hortons stop at least once every two days; their chicken noodle soup is nomtastic.
I don't know why we're not as obese, I just wanted to talk about poutine.
I don't know why we're not as obese, I just wanted to talk about poutine.
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Eli @ 14, When I first started reading this post, I was sure it was going to be about the story in the Canadian news this week about a Tim Horton's donut shop in New Westminster, DC being pressed into service as an overflow Emergency Room for one of the overcrowded and overtaxed local hospitals: http://www.canada.com/health/story.html?…
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@ 39 - Yes, seriously. It was the hottest thing in all the fast food places (not that I eat fast food, but the Mexican friends I was visiting insisted we stop at a food court).
Maybe it had just been introduced in Vancouver and the city was in the middle of a poutine craze, I don't know.
Maybe it had just been introduced in Vancouver and the city was in the middle of a poutine craze, I don't know.
45
I just moved to Vancouver Island from Seattle, and I can tell you that one of the things that probably affect the amount of food consumed is the fact that food is so fucking expensive here, especially dairy, which is produced locally by farmers who have quotas. And yes, there is a lot of walking that goes on. And kayaking. And skiing. Unlike Seattle, which claims to be so fucking outdoorsy, our recreation isn't exclusively car-accessible.
46
I'm from New Orleans. I thought that, with all this talk of poutine it must be crazy bad.
French fries, cheese curd and brown gravy? You're not going to make a nation of fat people with a regional indulgence dish like that.
Talk to me when you've manged to work 2 pounds of butter into that recipe.
French fries, cheese curd and brown gravy? You're not going to make a nation of fat people with a regional indulgence dish like that.
Talk to me when you've manged to work 2 pounds of butter into that recipe.
47
@40: I couldn't find a breakdown for children, but across all age categories the difference is rather stark: Average soft drink consumption in litres per person, per year: US 216, Canada 120.
In other words, Americans consume almost twice as many soft drinks per person than Canadians.
@39 et al - My experience is there isn't as much poutine consumed out West as there is in the East. Compared to Ottawa or Toronto (let alone Montreal), Vancouver is a poutine wasteland.
In other words, Americans consume almost twice as many soft drinks per person than Canadians.
@39 et al - My experience is there isn't as much poutine consumed out West as there is in the East. Compared to Ottawa or Toronto (let alone Montreal), Vancouver is a poutine wasteland.
48
@13 - says the man from the skinniest state.
Colorado's obesity rate is a good 5% lower than Canada's, even. I wonder what percentage of the population there skis.
Colorado's obesity rate is a good 5% lower than Canada's, even. I wonder what percentage of the population there skis.
50
But a sushi bonanza, BB @47! We had dinner at Coast on Alberni on Saturday night, so, so good, the sushi and the fish we had for dinner. And the caesars with rather pornographic 5" prawns in them...sigh. I love your city.
52
I'm gonna say a better social safety net means less poverty, less anxiety and less psychological issues that cause obesity.
When you care for others, they fare better. It's pretty simple, but AYN RAND 4EVER DERP DERP.
When you care for others, they fare better. It's pretty simple, but AYN RAND 4EVER DERP DERP.
53
@50: My personal favourites are the all-you-can eat Japanese places. Ideal when you have a thirteen-year-old bottomless pit who loves salmon sashimi and California rolls, and an eleven-year-old whose idea of exotic eating is white rice and gyoza. A little something for everyone, including the Dad who is addicted to BC rolls.
There is at least one place that I am surprised hasn't banned us for life, or at least started charging by the pound.
There is at least one place that I am surprised hasn't banned us for life, or at least started charging by the pound.
54
#47: Good to know. My child's binational and consumes 5.68 litres of soft drinks a year: I'll tell him that represents his "Canadian side." (Note to Dan Savage: my child's weight places him at 15 percentile among boys his age. Not worried about "fatty fatty two by four" teasing.)
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@53 Your 11 year old sounds like my daughter a few years ago: "I love sushi! Except for the kind with fish!" Maybe you'll be persuaded to post your favourite spots, so I can start a list? (Can't be too prepared for the next trip, after all. There's only so much time one can spend drooling at the Fluevog stores...)
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My guess is that it's a combination of universal health care, and much MUCH less high-fructose corn syrup in everything. I bet they make their Coca-cola with real sugar up there.
58
There's no one reason, obviously, but a combination of things. However, I do think poverty plays a big role. The fattest Canadians as a group are probably native women, and while part of that is physiological, it's also about a culture of poverty where junk food is one of the few things that's cheap and plentiful. That said, in the States it's not just poverty. Big people are just bigger, even in Washington. A friend of mine moved up here a few years ago -- he was well educated, wealthy, and what we all called American-sized. I was amazed at all the pop he drank. Sorry, soda. Way more than anyone else, and not diet, either. He finally got off it, and a few years later he's lost the weight. He said the smaller portion sizes and the active lifestyle here helped, too.
59
@56: "I bet they make their Coca-cola with real sugar up there." Nope. The label will say "glucose/fructose", but it's the same HFCS that the US uses.
@55: Try Shabusen on Burrard, just north of Robson. Japanese, plus Korean BBQ at the table. The food is good if not great - the sushi at Tsunami on Robson is better - but there is a lot of it and a good variety.
@55: Try Shabusen on Burrard, just north of Robson. Japanese, plus Korean BBQ at the table. The food is good if not great - the sushi at Tsunami on Robson is better - but there is a lot of it and a good variety.
60
@56 We don't. In fact, one of the things we have against us is that high fructose corn syrup just goes on our labels as "fructose/glucose."
61
Clearly a topic worth discussing but still odd that a handful of people take Dan's posting of this as a personal attack.
62
I really think it's down to the social safety net - and I think we might have better incentives and things that bring grocery stores (instead of just fast food/convenience stores) into poorer neighborhoods/rural areas.
In my opinion, "problem" obesity (as in the kind that results from poor diet, lack of exercise - not that that necessarily represents all obesity) is usually a problem of poverty, education and access to healthy food, and sometimes a problem of mental health (when it becomes an issue of compulsion). We have slightly more in place to address all of these issues in Canada. Of course, Harper would like to 'fix' all of this, I'm sure.
There are also powerful business forces at work in the US that affect the type and quality of food available. These are also at work in Canada, but again, we've managed to hold them at bay just that tiny bit more. Global deaths from too much of the wrong kinds of food are roughly equal to global deaths from not enough of any kind of food - these things are connected, and they don't come down to personal choice. It's about big business, and our globalized food economy.
In my opinion, "problem" obesity (as in the kind that results from poor diet, lack of exercise - not that that necessarily represents all obesity) is usually a problem of poverty, education and access to healthy food, and sometimes a problem of mental health (when it becomes an issue of compulsion). We have slightly more in place to address all of these issues in Canada. Of course, Harper would like to 'fix' all of this, I'm sure.
There are also powerful business forces at work in the US that affect the type and quality of food available. These are also at work in Canada, but again, we've managed to hold them at bay just that tiny bit more. Global deaths from too much of the wrong kinds of food are roughly equal to global deaths from not enough of any kind of food - these things are connected, and they don't come down to personal choice. It's about big business, and our globalized food economy.
63
The more I think about thsi the more I am conviced that it isn't a question of "how is Canada different from the US." Take a look at the map Free Lunch linked @49. The question is "how is the Mississippi valley different from the rest of North America?"
Most of the American Northeast and the West are not significantly different from Canada in terms of obesity rates. Several states there have rates that are lower than Canada's overall rate. It's not a question of national differences; it's about regional differences.
Most of the American Northeast and the West are not significantly different from Canada in terms of obesity rates. Several states there have rates that are lower than Canada's overall rate. It's not a question of national differences; it's about regional differences.
65
Is corn syrup subsidized and used to the same degree that it is here? Higher ratios of fructose to glucose consumption are correlated with an increased incidence of obesity and diabetes.
My guess is its related to all of health care, education, food regulation, and quality food access.
My guess is its related to all of health care, education, food regulation, and quality food access.
66
Yep, BB, that map pretty much tells the whole story (as I knew it would when I posted @13). Good find, Free Lunch.
67
Differentiating between corn syrup and cane sugar doesn't really matter, they both essentially do the same thing, add calories via non-nutritional carbohydrates. And it's not as if sugar has fewer calories than an equal amount of HFCS.
Soft drink manufacturers use HFCS only because it's cheaper than sugar, but a soft drink with cane sugar in it is just as fattening as one with HFCS in it.
Soft drink manufacturers use HFCS only because it's cheaper than sugar, but a soft drink with cane sugar in it is just as fattening as one with HFCS in it.
68
@61 CitKeane...and sometimes more than just a handful. You're right, it is an incredibly important issue, and yet somehow, discussing it--daring to make suggestions--seems to really offend people.
I've also never understood the "good food costs more than junk food" argument...I suppose that might be true if you're buying $4 artisan organic kumquats, but I spend a lot less when the cart is loaded with veggies and other unprocessed things than when I buy pre-made items. Chips, pizza pops, cases of soda, that stuff costs money.
And how does it work in the States? Here (where my kids go to school, at any rate) they don't sell pop in elementary school (K-8). I'd imagine the calories in pop are a HUGE part of things.
I've also never understood the "good food costs more than junk food" argument...I suppose that might be true if you're buying $4 artisan organic kumquats, but I spend a lot less when the cart is loaded with veggies and other unprocessed things than when I buy pre-made items. Chips, pizza pops, cases of soda, that stuff costs money.
And how does it work in the States? Here (where my kids go to school, at any rate) they don't sell pop in elementary school (K-8). I'd imagine the calories in pop are a HUGE part of things.
69
@68 Sometimes in the States (and I think possibly in parts of Canada too, but I think it's less common) there are whole neighbourhoods without grocery stores but WITH lots of fast food places, etc. Poorer neighbourhoods. And the people who live in them don't have cars. Couple that with poor public transit and good food ends up being just plain inaccessible. This is just one structural problem - clearly there are others.
The good food costs more than bad food also holds up to some degree - clearly lots of out and out junk food costs more than moderately unhealthy stuff. But produce can be pretty expensive, as can meat, as does any sort of unprocessed grain - people just end up eating a lot of simple carbs, because it is cheaper.
I also think that in both countries education is a problem too. Fewer and fewer people learn how to cook at home, and there just aren't programs in school teaching kids how to shop for and prepare healthy meals anymore. Home Economics served this function back in the day - but was rightly called out as being sexist, so they no longer force girls to take it. The problem is, they went the wrong direction, instead of excusing girls they should have forced everyone including the boys to take it. It would also help with some of the expense around good food - because it's cheaper to make if you know what you're doing. (For example - cheaper proteins like beans and tofu become an option if you know how to cook them.)
The good food costs more than bad food also holds up to some degree - clearly lots of out and out junk food costs more than moderately unhealthy stuff. But produce can be pretty expensive, as can meat, as does any sort of unprocessed grain - people just end up eating a lot of simple carbs, because it is cheaper.
I also think that in both countries education is a problem too. Fewer and fewer people learn how to cook at home, and there just aren't programs in school teaching kids how to shop for and prepare healthy meals anymore. Home Economics served this function back in the day - but was rightly called out as being sexist, so they no longer force girls to take it. The problem is, they went the wrong direction, instead of excusing girls they should have forced everyone including the boys to take it. It would also help with some of the expense around good food - because it's cheaper to make if you know what you're doing. (For example - cheaper proteins like beans and tofu become an option if you know how to cook them.)
70
For those of us living outside the U.S. The "U.S." is synonymous with "fat."
Off the top of my head, here's some possibilities:
1. The US is also synonymous with capitalism and capitalism works best when consumption is revered, and consumption is revered in the US
2. A hedonistic culture which isn't coupled with a disciplined culture = pursuit of instant gratification.
3. Lots of cars, lots of roads, lots of sprawl, and most people live in unwalkable suburbs
4. A culture which supports the trend of 'supersizing' every food product there is.
5. Fast food culture
6. Lack of poetry and beauty in everyday life, leads people to fill the hole in their soul with large ammounts of fat sugar and salt endowed food.
7. Anxiety which comes from living in a country with atrocious health care assistance, and which puts students in debt, which says "if you're poor it's your own fault" can lead to all sorts of self destructive behaviour such as over eating.
Off the top of my head, here's some possibilities:
1. The US is also synonymous with capitalism and capitalism works best when consumption is revered, and consumption is revered in the US
2. A hedonistic culture which isn't coupled with a disciplined culture = pursuit of instant gratification.
3. Lots of cars, lots of roads, lots of sprawl, and most people live in unwalkable suburbs
4. A culture which supports the trend of 'supersizing' every food product there is.
5. Fast food culture
6. Lack of poetry and beauty in everyday life, leads people to fill the hole in their soul with large ammounts of fat sugar and salt endowed food.
7. Anxiety which comes from living in a country with atrocious health care assistance, and which puts students in debt, which says "if you're poor it's your own fault" can lead to all sorts of self destructive behaviour such as over eating.
71
I'd say the South does have something to do with it. Or rather, Southern cooking.
I live in a small Alberta town, and traditional home cooking here would mean maybe a roast chicken with mashed potatoes, or cabbage rolls and perogy, or a stew, not the butter soaked deep fried sugar fests you think of when you think of Southern cooking. Also, as a general rule, adults drink tea (and that means hot tea) or coffee (or beer) with meals, rather than soft drinks. Since, especially in the West, distances are so great and populations are so small, very small towns don't have fast food outlets - it's just not commercially feasible. In a 200 km circle from where I'm sitting, there are two MacDonalds, two A&Ws, two KFCs, one Dairy Queen, one Burger King, and three Tim's.
Kids do play outside, though not as much as they used to. I've been working at a daycare for twelve years, and every year we see more parents asking that their children not go outside when it's cold. LOTS of kids, especially little boys, play hockey.
I live in a small Alberta town, and traditional home cooking here would mean maybe a roast chicken with mashed potatoes, or cabbage rolls and perogy, or a stew, not the butter soaked deep fried sugar fests you think of when you think of Southern cooking. Also, as a general rule, adults drink tea (and that means hot tea) or coffee (or beer) with meals, rather than soft drinks. Since, especially in the West, distances are so great and populations are so small, very small towns don't have fast food outlets - it's just not commercially feasible. In a 200 km circle from where I'm sitting, there are two MacDonalds, two A&Ws, two KFCs, one Dairy Queen, one Burger King, and three Tim's.
Kids do play outside, though not as much as they used to. I've been working at a daycare for twelve years, and every year we see more parents asking that their children not go outside when it's cold. LOTS of kids, especially little boys, play hockey.
72
Dan, I love you, I do, but math is apparently harder than thought. *Statistically* significant isn't just a question of eyeballing numbers and seeing how different they LOOK -- there's a specific test for significance which determines if the percentage differences could've happened by chance (since you don't poll the whole population, but just a section of it). I can easily believe 12% and 15.5% are quite similar and unremarkable *statistically*!
73
historygirl@69 When you say "simple carbs" cost less than veggies and unprocessed grains, what do you mean, exactly? This has really got me thinking, and I'd love to check on prices when I go out next. I see what you're saying about fast food/poor neighbourhoods/no access to real food, that could be a huge part of the problem in certain areas. The irony, of course, is that a place like Canada should have terrible weight issues--short growing seasons across much of it, long distances between cities, etc., while the US South should have the lowest obesity rates--long growing seasons, locally available produce, weather conducive to exercise/walking...??
74
I can't believe noone mentioned that..Canuck, I am disappoint.
Howsabout portions size!! Ours are waaay smaller!! When in the US, we always order one order and share a plate, although we pay about the same for the meal, we get half as much. So comparing how much we spend on fast food isn't really comparable.
Lack of poverty would also be a big thing. Love how they mention 'African-Americans and Hispanic people'...like they're genetically predisposed to be obese? No, they're predisposed to be discriminated against and wind up poor, and we all know poor people can't afford to eat as well.
Howsabout portions size!! Ours are waaay smaller!! When in the US, we always order one order and share a plate, although we pay about the same for the meal, we get half as much. So comparing how much we spend on fast food isn't really comparable.
Lack of poverty would also be a big thing. Love how they mention 'African-Americans and Hispanic people'...like they're genetically predisposed to be obese? No, they're predisposed to be discriminated against and wind up poor, and we all know poor people can't afford to eat as well.
75
74 "we all know poor people can't afford to eat as well. "
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In my grocery store, today, a five pound bag of carrots costs almost exactly the same as a big bag of Cheetos. Whole wheat bread, the cheapest brand, costs the same as white bread. Skim milk is the cheapest milk. The only thing cheaper in the freezer section than the frozen veggies is the ice. Yes, whole wheat pasta is cheaper than white pasta, but plain pasta is still far cheaper than any of the high fat prepared pasta dishes (Kraft Dinner, Hamburger Helper, etc.) Canned tomatoes (ingredients: tomatoes, water) and kidney beans (ingredients: kidney beans, ascorbic acid, water) are about the cheapest canned goods, and dry beans are ridiculously cheap. Tuna packed in water, fruit canned in juice, are both cheaper than the oil and syrup packed varieties.
Yes, transportation is a problem, if you are poor - it's hard to get that cheap ten kilo bag of flour home on the bus. Yes, poor people cannot take advantage of economy of scale, and can't buy that 20 kilo box of chicken breasts that works out to so little a portion. But this blanket statement that we hear so often that good food costs more than bad food is just not true, or at least not sweepingly true.
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In my grocery store, today, a five pound bag of carrots costs almost exactly the same as a big bag of Cheetos. Whole wheat bread, the cheapest brand, costs the same as white bread. Skim milk is the cheapest milk. The only thing cheaper in the freezer section than the frozen veggies is the ice. Yes, whole wheat pasta is cheaper than white pasta, but plain pasta is still far cheaper than any of the high fat prepared pasta dishes (Kraft Dinner, Hamburger Helper, etc.) Canned tomatoes (ingredients: tomatoes, water) and kidney beans (ingredients: kidney beans, ascorbic acid, water) are about the cheapest canned goods, and dry beans are ridiculously cheap. Tuna packed in water, fruit canned in juice, are both cheaper than the oil and syrup packed varieties.
Yes, transportation is a problem, if you are poor - it's hard to get that cheap ten kilo bag of flour home on the bus. Yes, poor people cannot take advantage of economy of scale, and can't buy that 20 kilo box of chicken breasts that works out to so little a portion. But this blanket statement that we hear so often that good food costs more than bad food is just not true, or at least not sweepingly true.
76
Sorry, meant to say that whole wheat pasta is more expensive than white pasta.
A fully cooked rotisserie roast chicken from the grocery store is half the price of a ten piece (whole chicken) box at KFC. You can buy 7 kilos of raw potatoes for the same price as 1.2 kilos of frozen french fries, no name brand. Eight pounds of oranges for the price of a frozen store brand pizza.
I've lived as a minimum wage earner without a car in both Toronto and Edmonton, in some pretty dicey neighbourhoods, and there was always a grocery store within walking distance, and a choice of them within an easy bus ride.
I cook at a non profit daycare, and can make enough soup to feed forty kids and ten adults, to government mandated nutritional standards, for seven bucks.
The problem is not that it's more expensive to eat right, it's that it's harder. It takes more actual effort, and it takes more strength of will. It's difficult, when you are run down by poverty, to summon up the time, energy, and will power to make the kids a good dinner when it's so easy to give them a box of Cap'n Crunch instead. That's a problem, and it's a real one, but it doesn't do any good, or help to solve that problem, by making false claims about the cost of decent food.
A fully cooked rotisserie roast chicken from the grocery store is half the price of a ten piece (whole chicken) box at KFC. You can buy 7 kilos of raw potatoes for the same price as 1.2 kilos of frozen french fries, no name brand. Eight pounds of oranges for the price of a frozen store brand pizza.
I've lived as a minimum wage earner without a car in both Toronto and Edmonton, in some pretty dicey neighbourhoods, and there was always a grocery store within walking distance, and a choice of them within an easy bus ride.
I cook at a non profit daycare, and can make enough soup to feed forty kids and ten adults, to government mandated nutritional standards, for seven bucks.
The problem is not that it's more expensive to eat right, it's that it's harder. It takes more actual effort, and it takes more strength of will. It's difficult, when you are run down by poverty, to summon up the time, energy, and will power to make the kids a good dinner when it's so easy to give them a box of Cap'n Crunch instead. That's a problem, and it's a real one, but it doesn't do any good, or help to solve that problem, by making false claims about the cost of decent food.
78
agony, really good points. I was thinking most veggies are pretty cheap..I mean, you and I both know cabbage rolls wouldn't be the staple they are here if cabbage were pricey! Also, I think how you're raised, the kind of food you grow up eating, has a lot to do with it. I remember once, after I was married, walking through the grocery through the candy aisle, and thinking, "imagine being able to buy all this candy!" and then I thought, wait, I *can* buy it if I want! It was interesting, I just saw it as completely off limits because it was so bad for you... (I didn't get any...)
79
I spent reading break in Seattle, and I was amazed how cheap shitty food is. (to be fair, pretty much any food is cheap compared to Victoria) Seriously, I went to the corner store cos I wanted some snacks - less than a $1 for a 3 serving box of Mike N Ikes?
Now wonder people are so fat. Because yeah, you can eat cheap *and* healthy but it takes knowledge. and time, and I think a lot of people are lacking in those things.
And about Canada being less fat? small town/rural folks who *don't* own small farms are much much heavier than city people.
Now wonder people are so fat. Because yeah, you can eat cheap *and* healthy but it takes knowledge. and time, and I think a lot of people are lacking in those things.
And about Canada being less fat? small town/rural folks who *don't* own small farms are much much heavier than city people.
80
@36, 39, whoever the fuck else was talking about poutine in Vancouver
Poutine isn't all that common here. Perhaps I'm just not going to all of the places that serve poutine and I'm not friends with all of the poutine-loving Vancouverites.
Poutine isn't all that common here. Perhaps I'm just not going to all of the places that serve poutine and I'm not friends with all of the poutine-loving Vancouverites.
82
Mhm. You know what I ate when we were poor? Popcorn and rice, so that my growing brothers could get the nutritious food. Come to Ottawa and tell me healthy food is cheaper than cheap shit. I've never seen produce so expensive in my life.
And your carrots must be awful cheap. Here a bag of cheetos is 2.50 while a bag of carrots is minimum 3.00. Add in that it's often the most expensive grocery stores in the poorest areas. Add in that children aren't happy eating carrots all day, and that many other vegetables are very expensive. Hmm, 5 dollar bag of frozen broccoli that lasts two meals or 10 boxes of mac and cheese?
My boyfriend and I eat healthily and it costs us a lot. We ride our bikes down to the chinese super market to pick up cheaper fresh veggies but it's still a lot. Making food that you don't get sick of often means buying more expensive ingredients. I'm going grocery shopping right now, I'd be happy to write down the actual prices for you.
And your carrots must be awful cheap. Here a bag of cheetos is 2.50 while a bag of carrots is minimum 3.00. Add in that it's often the most expensive grocery stores in the poorest areas. Add in that children aren't happy eating carrots all day, and that many other vegetables are very expensive. Hmm, 5 dollar bag of frozen broccoli that lasts two meals or 10 boxes of mac and cheese?
My boyfriend and I eat healthily and it costs us a lot. We ride our bikes down to the chinese super market to pick up cheaper fresh veggies but it's still a lot. Making food that you don't get sick of often means buying more expensive ingredients. I'm going grocery shopping right now, I'd be happy to write down the actual prices for you.
83
But you don't buy frozen broccoli, which is expensive, you buy frozen peas, which are cheap. You buy your broccoli fresh when it's on special, and make sure you eat the stems and not just the tops. You buy cabbage, and turnips. You cook and eat your potatoes with the skins on, and don't add much if any butter, to keep them nutritious. You make soups from your vegetable peelings and ends. You keep meat to a condiment, and get much of your protein from dried beans and lentils.
I was brought up for the most part on the peasant foods of eastern Europe. The cheapest cuts of meat, cooked skillfully, and the cheapest vegetables. We tend not to think of cabbage and beets as healthy, compared to arugula and sprouts, but they are.
I was brought up for the most part on the peasant foods of eastern Europe. The cheapest cuts of meat, cooked skillfully, and the cheapest vegetables. We tend not to think of cabbage and beets as healthy, compared to arugula and sprouts, but they are.
84
@69 and 70 are right. We can do a lot (as a culture) by learning how to cook again, like our grandparents before there was fast-food everywhere. Also, grocery stores in poor neighborhoods would go a long way toward helping the urban poor eat better. I just don't know how we get there as a culture.
@75. PER CALORIE, healthy food is much more expensive. When I was poor I wouldn't have even considered wasting my few available dollars on carrots. For heaven's sake, I was HUNGRY!. Also, they would cost more in calories to get them home, since they're heavy and I had a 7 mile bike ride.
Now that I have money, I have the *luxury* of being able to buy healthy food and cook it myself. But I can certainly understand why the poor are obese: lack of availability of produce; limited funds to spend on each calorie; and, "food is the only fun I'll have today, so it better be tasty."
@75. PER CALORIE, healthy food is much more expensive. When I was poor I wouldn't have even considered wasting my few available dollars on carrots. For heaven's sake, I was HUNGRY!. Also, they would cost more in calories to get them home, since they're heavy and I had a 7 mile bike ride.
Now that I have money, I have the *luxury* of being able to buy healthy food and cook it myself. But I can certainly understand why the poor are obese: lack of availability of produce; limited funds to spend on each calorie; and, "food is the only fun I'll have today, so it better be tasty."
85
@83: All true. But you have to know how to cook to eat that way. Too many people today don't. Hand you or me a bag of beets and a cabbage, we make soup. Hand that to the average North American? They go to McDonald's.
86
You're right - I am not disputing the problem.
I just have a beef with the "it costs so much to eat right" argument. The problem is not that it costs too much, but that it requires skills, time and an attitude that are hard to come by.
Both my kids took Foods in high school. Did they learn how to make chicken soup, surely one of the most useful cooking skills? Or bread, another? No, but they learned how to make a strawberry layer cake that cost nearly $75 in ingredients and had to be eaten within about an hour of completion.
I just have a beef with the "it costs so much to eat right" argument. The problem is not that it costs too much, but that it requires skills, time and an attitude that are hard to come by.
Both my kids took Foods in high school. Did they learn how to make chicken soup, surely one of the most useful cooking skills? Or bread, another? No, but they learned how to make a strawberry layer cake that cost nearly $75 in ingredients and had to be eaten within about an hour of completion.
87
It's generally colder in Canada, so with the same caloric intake, a Canadian is going to burn more energy to maintain body temperature. To match US obesity increases, Canadians would have to eat more.
If my theory was valid, you'd expect northern states to have slower increases in obesity than southern states. But I'm too lazy to check. So I'm prepared to be debunked.
If my theory was valid, you'd expect northern states to have slower increases in obesity than southern states. But I'm too lazy to check. So I'm prepared to be debunked.
88
You know, I try to stay out of this effort/lazy conversation. But I live in a rural state where the poorest people don't even have operational kitchens. I know a woman who works for agricultural extension whose entire job is to try to teach poor people how to shop for the best possible foods they can prepare in situations where they might not have a refrigerator and likely only have a hot plate or microwave to cook with.
Add to that the fact that there is almost no vegetable production locally, so what we have available is shitty and expensive because it's been trucked in and the tiniest towns have one grocery store option that is more like a convenience store, and you have a recipe for some pretty damn unhealthy eating.
I had no idea how easy I had it when I lived in Seattle. It's more expensive and difficult to get healthy foods where I live now, but I can afford it and have the time and energy to cook.
Add to that the fact that there is almost no vegetable production locally, so what we have available is shitty and expensive because it's been trucked in and the tiniest towns have one grocery store option that is more like a convenience store, and you have a recipe for some pretty damn unhealthy eating.
I had no idea how easy I had it when I lived in Seattle. It's more expensive and difficult to get healthy foods where I live now, but I can afford it and have the time and energy to cook.
90
Gym every day? Hahahahahaha. Hello, 1990s budget cuts in the Ontario education system. We had gym 2-3 times a week. Maybe.
91
everything's bigger in Texas, and that tips the scales in your favour...
I agree with the "It's cold and shivering burns calories" argument, also the soda consumption is less in Canada, and the tighter restrictions on food additives and chemicals... Anyone remember Olestra? I almost peed myself when I read that those crazy americans would rather have "anal seepage" than eat real fat....hee hee, anal seepage...
I agree with the "It's cold and shivering burns calories" argument, also the soda consumption is less in Canada, and the tighter restrictions on food additives and chemicals... Anyone remember Olestra? I almost peed myself when I read that those crazy americans would rather have "anal seepage" than eat real fat....hee hee, anal seepage...
92
Americans on average take in more calories per person than most other countries, Canada included.
93
You can defend the use of high fructose corn syrup as a cheap sugar substitute if you want but Canadians don't eat that crap. Check the ingredients on the food packages. If you are looking for the "keep it simple, stupid" standout difference, thats it. I know I stopped eating HFCS four years ago and have better succes at controlling my weight ever since.
94
@93: Canadians do eat that crap. HFCS is commonly used in Canadian soft drinks; however, it is labelled as "glucose/fructose".
Canadian eating habits, exercise habits, climate, etc., etc., are not significantly different than those of the US border states, the northeast, and the west. Canadian obesity rates are also not significantly different than those of the US border states, the northeast, and the west. And we have our own "regional" obesity problem among First Nations, where the obesity rate is almost 40% and Type 2 Diabetes occurs at three to five times the rate among the rest of the population.
Factors affecting First Nations obesity? Poverty, education, isolation, and the cost of fresh healthy food vs. cheap fattening food.
Canadian eating habits, exercise habits, climate, etc., etc., are not significantly different than those of the US border states, the northeast, and the west. Canadian obesity rates are also not significantly different than those of the US border states, the northeast, and the west. And we have our own "regional" obesity problem among First Nations, where the obesity rate is almost 40% and Type 2 Diabetes occurs at three to five times the rate among the rest of the population.
Factors affecting First Nations obesity? Poverty, education, isolation, and the cost of fresh healthy food vs. cheap fattening food.
95
@92: Not significantly more. The US is at the top of the chart, but the difference in per capita daily calorie consumption in the US and Canada is 149, or about one cup of full fat milk per day.
96
And to complete a triple-post, here's a interesting comparison:
Obesity rates by state (cf. @49)
Income inequality by state
Not a perfect correlation, of course, but food for thought.
Obesity rates by state (cf. @49)
Income inequality by state
Not a perfect correlation, of course, but food for thought.
97
Well I'm glad your family is happy as clams eating root vegetable stew day in and day out. In my family, we could stomach it about twice a week. My sister and I actually held a protest with signs, and marched around the living room chanting "No more soup", because my impoverished parents were trying to make us eat it every goddamn day.
3:99/lb for peppers
5.99/450 grams spinach
2.99/lb of tomatoes
Oh, right, but we're only counting the prices of cabbage and potatoes. Poor people should eat cabbage and potatoes and canned tomatoes day in and day out! You're right, there are certain healthy products that are cheap, but newsflash! Poor people don't have cars! They have to truck the 10 lb. bag of potatoes back to their house in a backpack. If it were like our house, that's also up and down iced over hilly trails. How's my poor old mum supposed to manage that? We ate as healthy as we could as kids, and it still wasn't very healthy. Fresh greens and a 'colourful plate' are recommended for healthy eating, and big surprise, those are the most expensive vegetables.
3:99/lb for peppers
5.99/450 grams spinach
2.99/lb of tomatoes
Oh, right, but we're only counting the prices of cabbage and potatoes. Poor people should eat cabbage and potatoes and canned tomatoes day in and day out! You're right, there are certain healthy products that are cheap, but newsflash! Poor people don't have cars! They have to truck the 10 lb. bag of potatoes back to their house in a backpack. If it were like our house, that's also up and down iced over hilly trails. How's my poor old mum supposed to manage that? We ate as healthy as we could as kids, and it still wasn't very healthy. Fresh greens and a 'colourful plate' are recommended for healthy eating, and big surprise, those are the most expensive vegetables.
98
Caralain, I think you're being unfair. Those were examples. They weren't intended to be your entire diet.
Cabbage and potato tend to always be cheap so you should know a lot of cabbage and potato recipes. You can make soup with leftovers so you should be thinking about future soups when cooking non-liquid meals.
Eggs and beans are very healthy and dead cheap all the time.
Otherwise, produce is seasonal and various. What kind of tomatoes are 3$? Is spinach that expensive all year?
I'll give you peppers. I can't ever recall thinking, "Wow, what a deal on peppers! Let's get some." Pepper harvesting must be life threatening or something. Like, it must be that bell peppers emit a poisonous gas when picked.
But that also makes me doubt your list. Peppers are always the most expensive vegetable and you put them on your list. That makes it seem as though you compiled a list of the most expensive vegetables?
That's not fair.
Cabbage and potato tend to always be cheap so you should know a lot of cabbage and potato recipes. You can make soup with leftovers so you should be thinking about future soups when cooking non-liquid meals.
Eggs and beans are very healthy and dead cheap all the time.
Otherwise, produce is seasonal and various. What kind of tomatoes are 3$? Is spinach that expensive all year?
I'll give you peppers. I can't ever recall thinking, "Wow, what a deal on peppers! Let's get some." Pepper harvesting must be life threatening or something. Like, it must be that bell peppers emit a poisonous gas when picked.
But that also makes me doubt your list. Peppers are always the most expensive vegetable and you put them on your list. That makes it seem as though you compiled a list of the most expensive vegetables?
That's not fair.
99
Not really, I went out to buy ingredients for salad, and noted the prices for the stuff I wanted to buy. *shrug*. And yep, that's the standard not-on-sale price for tomatoes. We always buy em when they're down to 2.49. And spinach varies from about 4.99 to 5.99/ 454 g at the two grocery stores down the street. Broccoli is on sale for 1.99 each, still not a great deal, since they were pretty pathetic looking, which is why I buy it frozen. Mushrooms are on sale 2/5.00 for the little boxes. I bought a smallish can of chick peas for 1.49 yesterday. I'm not kidding, this shit is expensive. Why don't you give me six average vegetables, and I'll go look up the prices for you at two places, so you don't think I'm making this stuff up.
Not really, I went out to buy ingredients for salad, and noted the prices for the stuff I wanted to buy. *shrug*. And yep, that's the standard not-on-sale price for tomatoes. We always buy em when they're down to 2.49. And spinach varies from about 4.99 to 5.99/ 454 g at the two grocery stores down the street. Broccoli is on sale for 1.99 each, still not a great deal, since they were pretty pathetic looking, which is why I buy it frozen. Mushrooms are on sale 2/5.00 for the little boxes. I bought a smallish can of chick peas for 1.49 yesterday. I'm not kidding, this shit is expensive. Why don't you give me six average vegetables, and I'll go look up the prices for you at two places, so you don't think I'm making this stuff up.
100
Caralain, I gave you lots of examples, and could keep on giving them all day. "Healthy food is expensive, while unhealthy food is cheap" is simply not true, as a sweeping statement. Of course you can always find examples of expensive healthy food, but that ignores the general rule, which is -
The more convenient a food item is, the less healthy it is likely to be and the more expensive it is likely to be.
A whole frying chicken is cheaper per pound than cut up chicken parts, which are cheaper than boneless skinless parts, which are cheaper per pound than a box of fried chicken.
Whole raw carrots are cheaper than those faux "baby" carrots, which are cheaper than canned carrots.
Dried beans are cheaper than canned beans, which are cheaper than a bowl of chili.
Fish fillets are cheaper than battered and prefried fish fingers.
Raw potatoes are cheaper than frozen french fries, which are cheaper than an order of fries from a fast food place.
Flour, yeast and water are cheaper than bread, which is cheaper than cinnamon buns.
And so it goes. Most of the time, for every step along the way, nutrients are lost, and unnecessary and unhealthy additives are added.
If you make a point of going for the least processed version open to you of the foods you already eat, you will just by that move make a big difference in both the amount of money you spend on food, and the nutritional value.
If, in addition, you look for produce in season, you'll save more, and again boost nutrition - out of season produce is often picked early, and because it doesn't ripen naturally, often is lacking somewhat in its usual nutrients. IF you do as much of your own baking as you can you'll save money - even cakes and cookies, if you bake them yourself, can be easily made more nutritious, and they are way cheaper (the thing about baking is that the more you do it, the cheaper it gets. If you bake once every two years, it's expensive, because your basic ingredients have to be bought new every time, and baking pans, etc, aren't paying their way. If you bake a couple of times a week, you use up that yeast, and baking powder, and so on).
But, as said above, all of this is hard. You have to have the time, the energy, the skills, a settled enough life so you can build up a little stock of ingredients and utensils. By saying that good food is cheaper than lousy food, I am NOT disparaging those who do not have the wherewithal to avail themselves of the good food that's out there. Cheaper vs more expensive is not the only equation. Carrots are cheaper than Cheetos, but sometimes a person just wants a damn Cheeto because it's the only fun thing in a dreary week.
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The more convenient a food item is, the less healthy it is likely to be and the more expensive it is likely to be.
A whole frying chicken is cheaper per pound than cut up chicken parts, which are cheaper than boneless skinless parts, which are cheaper per pound than a box of fried chicken.
Whole raw carrots are cheaper than those faux "baby" carrots, which are cheaper than canned carrots.
Dried beans are cheaper than canned beans, which are cheaper than a bowl of chili.
Fish fillets are cheaper than battered and prefried fish fingers.
Raw potatoes are cheaper than frozen french fries, which are cheaper than an order of fries from a fast food place.
Flour, yeast and water are cheaper than bread, which is cheaper than cinnamon buns.
And so it goes. Most of the time, for every step along the way, nutrients are lost, and unnecessary and unhealthy additives are added.
If you make a point of going for the least processed version open to you of the foods you already eat, you will just by that move make a big difference in both the amount of money you spend on food, and the nutritional value.
If, in addition, you look for produce in season, you'll save more, and again boost nutrition - out of season produce is often picked early, and because it doesn't ripen naturally, often is lacking somewhat in its usual nutrients. IF you do as much of your own baking as you can you'll save money - even cakes and cookies, if you bake them yourself, can be easily made more nutritious, and they are way cheaper (the thing about baking is that the more you do it, the cheaper it gets. If you bake once every two years, it's expensive, because your basic ingredients have to be bought new every time, and baking pans, etc, aren't paying their way. If you bake a couple of times a week, you use up that yeast, and baking powder, and so on).
But, as said above, all of this is hard. You have to have the time, the energy, the skills, a settled enough life so you can build up a little stock of ingredients and utensils. By saying that good food is cheaper than lousy food, I am NOT disparaging those who do not have the wherewithal to avail themselves of the good food that's out there. Cheaper vs more expensive is not the only equation. Carrots are cheaper than Cheetos, but sometimes a person just wants a damn Cheeto because it's the only fun thing in a dreary week.
101
Just saw the most recent comment - you can eat a spinach salad in March in Ottawa if you want to, but don't then say that you're trying to eat cheaply. There are lots of equally nutritious, and tasty, vegetable options that won't cost that much.
102
I realize I'm beating this subject to death, but cooking nutritious meals for children on a tight budget is how I make my living, and I care about this subject.
It's important, when saying "this shit is expensive", to have a basis for comparison. Is 1.49 a lot for a can of chickpeas, when otherwise you'd have spent 5 bucks for some hamburger as the protein base for a meal?
Your salad is expensive compared to a bowl of ramen, but it's cheap compared to rack of lamb.
So instead let's compare it to another vegetable dish, made of seasonal vegetables. Take three smallish red potatoes, one large sweet potato, five carrots. Scrub them all well, and, with their skins still on, cut them into chunks. Add one onion, chopped coarsely. Toss them all in about as much of whatever dressing you would have used on your salad. Put in a casserole dish, cover and bake for about half an hour. Add one quarter of a red bell pepper, cook for about another five minutes, and serve.
Cost? Let's say you bought your vegetables in smaller packages, because you are on your bike - so, two pound bag of carrots (1.99) two pound bag of onions (1.49) and five pound bag of potatoes (4.49), the sweet potato and pepper bought singly. The vegetables would be cheaper yet if bought in bulk.
Potatoes, there's about fifteen in the bag, let's call three of them one dollar.
Sweet potato - 1.20 for a big one this time of year
Carrots - let's call it half the bag, one dollar
Onion - maybe 50 cents, say it's a big one
Although peppers are expensive by the pound they are also light. One pepper will run you, at 3.99 a pound, maybe a buck fifty if it's a heavy one. Say two bucks, so one quarter would be fifty cents.
What the heck, let's toss in a big handful of frozen peas, for a quarter.
So, 4.50 for a large, filling, tasty dish full of beta carotene. Lots of colour, lots of flavour, throw in that can of chick peas (though I'd go for well rinsed kidney beans, personally) to make it nutritionally complete. You could feed two adults, two kids, and they'd be full.
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It's important, when saying "this shit is expensive", to have a basis for comparison. Is 1.49 a lot for a can of chickpeas, when otherwise you'd have spent 5 bucks for some hamburger as the protein base for a meal?
Your salad is expensive compared to a bowl of ramen, but it's cheap compared to rack of lamb.
So instead let's compare it to another vegetable dish, made of seasonal vegetables. Take three smallish red potatoes, one large sweet potato, five carrots. Scrub them all well, and, with their skins still on, cut them into chunks. Add one onion, chopped coarsely. Toss them all in about as much of whatever dressing you would have used on your salad. Put in a casserole dish, cover and bake for about half an hour. Add one quarter of a red bell pepper, cook for about another five minutes, and serve.
Cost? Let's say you bought your vegetables in smaller packages, because you are on your bike - so, two pound bag of carrots (1.99) two pound bag of onions (1.49) and five pound bag of potatoes (4.49), the sweet potato and pepper bought singly. The vegetables would be cheaper yet if bought in bulk.
Potatoes, there's about fifteen in the bag, let's call three of them one dollar.
Sweet potato - 1.20 for a big one this time of year
Carrots - let's call it half the bag, one dollar
Onion - maybe 50 cents, say it's a big one
Although peppers are expensive by the pound they are also light. One pepper will run you, at 3.99 a pound, maybe a buck fifty if it's a heavy one. Say two bucks, so one quarter would be fifty cents.
What the heck, let's toss in a big handful of frozen peas, for a quarter.
So, 4.50 for a large, filling, tasty dish full of beta carotene. Lots of colour, lots of flavour, throw in that can of chick peas (though I'd go for well rinsed kidney beans, personally) to make it nutritionally complete. You could feed two adults, two kids, and they'd be full.
103
@67 the corn syrup causes you to process calories differently. The difference is actually quite astounding.
104
There is snow on the ground here 5-6 months out of the year, not the greatest growing season. I'm supposed to eat cabbage and parsnips during our november to april winter? Spinach is actually listed as one of the only all-year 'in season' foods. The tomatoes I listed were also local and 'in season' for march, too.
http://www.foodland.gov.on.ca/english/av…
Sure, if you have a stay at home mum who's okay soaking beans all night, hauling potato sacks home from the supermarket, and investing 6 hours a day preparing your food, I guess you can eat cheaply. Is it possible to subsist on beets and rutabega for 6 months of the year? Probably. Is it going to happen when you can buy mac and cheese for the same price? No.
My point is, healthy food, in the form that people are able to carry, able to make without investing half their day, able to put up with eating regularly is VERY DIFFICULT, and not as cheap as you make it out to be. No one sits around eating cabbage and carrot soup for six months.
You want to save the environment by getting people out of cars? Make public transit more accessible. You want people in our countries to be less obese? Make spinach more affordable than cheetos.
There is snow on the ground here 5-6 months out of the year, not the greatest growing season. I'm supposed to eat cabbage and parsnips during our november to april winter? Spinach is actually listed as one of the only all-year 'in season' foods. The tomatoes I listed were also local and 'in season' for march, too.
http://www.foodland.gov.on.ca/english/av…
Sure, if you have a stay at home mum who's okay soaking beans all night, hauling potato sacks home from the supermarket, and investing 6 hours a day preparing your food, I guess you can eat cheaply. Is it possible to subsist on beets and rutabega for 6 months of the year? Probably. Is it going to happen when you can buy mac and cheese for the same price? No.
My point is, healthy food, in the form that people are able to carry, able to make without investing half their day, able to put up with eating regularly is VERY DIFFICULT, and not as cheap as you make it out to be. No one sits around eating cabbage and carrot soup for six months.
You want to save the environment by getting people out of cars? Make public transit more accessible. You want people in our countries to be less obese? Make spinach more affordable than cheetos.
105
I felt your pain, Caralain. We were poor and on the other side of the river (though we did shop for food in the Billings Bridge area of Ottawa) and I was so fed up with grilled cheese sandwiches and Kraft Dinner that it takes an especially good pizza or pasta dish, or a wine event to get me to eat cheese. We grew corn in the backyard of the duplex half we rented in the high inflation days when Steinberg was still around, and never ate out except for McDonald's and BBQ take-out.
Sure, if you have a stay at home mum who's okay soaking beans all night, hauling potato sacks home from the supermarket, and investing 6 hours a day preparing your food, I guess you can eat cheaply.
No. One plans meals for the week. I have soaked beans and I can tell you it just takes a quick rinse of the legumes before they go into a pot, then water is added. I don't stand all night over the pot. Have a look at the Nourishing Traditions and More-with-Less cookbooks. I made a similar to yours argument to my dental hygienist and she said it just takes organization. Plan the meals, go buy what's on special and in season. Frozen is better than canned except for tomatoes, and nightshade vegetables like tomatoes and peppers had a crappy season so they're going to be pricey. My hygienist makes food in advance once a week, saving her time and energy on the weeknights.
Sure, if you have a stay at home mum who's okay soaking beans all night, hauling potato sacks home from the supermarket, and investing 6 hours a day preparing your food, I guess you can eat cheaply.
No. One plans meals for the week. I have soaked beans and I can tell you it just takes a quick rinse of the legumes before they go into a pot, then water is added. I don't stand all night over the pot. Have a look at the Nourishing Traditions and More-with-Less cookbooks. I made a similar to yours argument to my dental hygienist and she said it just takes organization. Plan the meals, go buy what's on special and in season. Frozen is better than canned except for tomatoes, and nightshade vegetables like tomatoes and peppers had a crappy season so they're going to be pricey. My hygienist makes food in advance once a week, saving her time and energy on the weeknights.
106
The point that I am arguing against is the oft made claim that healthy food is more expensive than cheap food.
It isn't.
If you want to say that you'd rather not eat certain healthy foods, or that certain healthy foods are more trouble than you want to invest, I won't argue with you. That's not what you were saying, earlier, though.
Again - as a general rule, the less processed a food is, the healthier it is, and the cheaper it is.
It isn't.
If you want to say that you'd rather not eat certain healthy foods, or that certain healthy foods are more trouble than you want to invest, I won't argue with you. That's not what you were saying, earlier, though.
Again - as a general rule, the less processed a food is, the healthier it is, and the cheaper it is.
107
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/05…
Healthy eating really does cost more.
That’s what University of Washington researchers found when they compared the prices of 370 foods sold at supermarkets in the Seattle area. Calorie for calorie, junk foods not only cost less than fruits and vegetables, but junk food prices also are less likely to rise as a result of inflation. The findings, reported in the current issue of the Journal of the American Dietetic Association, may help explain why the highest rates of obesity are seen among people in lower-income groups.
Based on his findings, a 2,000-calorie diet would cost just $3.52 a day if it consisted of junk food, compared with $36.32 a day for a diet of low-energy dense foods. However, most people eat a mix of foods. The average American spends about $7 a day on food, although low-income people spend about $4, says Dr. Drewnowski.
“If you have $3 to feed yourself, your choices gravitate toward foods which give you the most calories per dollar,’’ said Dr. Drewnowski. “Not only are the empty calories cheaper, but the healthy foods are becoming more and more expensive. Vegetables and fruits are rapidly becoming luxury goods.”
Healthy eating really does cost more.
That’s what University of Washington researchers found when they compared the prices of 370 foods sold at supermarkets in the Seattle area. Calorie for calorie, junk foods not only cost less than fruits and vegetables, but junk food prices also are less likely to rise as a result of inflation. The findings, reported in the current issue of the Journal of the American Dietetic Association, may help explain why the highest rates of obesity are seen among people in lower-income groups.
Based on his findings, a 2,000-calorie diet would cost just $3.52 a day if it consisted of junk food, compared with $36.32 a day for a diet of low-energy dense foods. However, most people eat a mix of foods. The average American spends about $7 a day on food, although low-income people spend about $4, says Dr. Drewnowski.
“If you have $3 to feed yourself, your choices gravitate toward foods which give you the most calories per dollar,’’ said Dr. Drewnowski. “Not only are the empty calories cheaper, but the healthy foods are becoming more and more expensive. Vegetables and fruits are rapidly becoming luxury goods.”
108
@106: Yes, if you have access to a large supermarket, transportation, fully functional kitchen equipment, and the time, energy, and knowledge for how to prepare meals, healthy foods can be cheaper than unhealthy ones, at least when you don't take into account the opportunity cost of preparing the food (that is, you could be doing other things with that time and energy).
But many people don't have those things. Especially not poor people.
But many people don't have those things. Especially not poor people.
109
@39, Canuck, you're right on the spot. There's a lot of east asian food (chinese, japanese, korean) and it's really popular. There isn't a lot of good poutine to be had, and to be fair, the price of a poutine is only a bit cheaper than an amazing $9-12 sushi meal. For more expensive but seriously awesome sushi ($13-500), try Tojo's, Miku, Shiro, Hayashi Sushi, and Ajisai. If you're looking for an authentic izakaya (<33333), try Aki. I'm getting hungry...
@44 A poutine craze is definitely possible! There are times where there are lots of eaters and then months go by without me even thinking of it. It helps that we have some great Vancouver-based food blogs and they affect food trends a bit.
@44 A poutine craze is definitely possible! There are times where there are lots of eaters and then months go by without me even thinking of it. It helps that we have some great Vancouver-based food blogs and they affect food trends a bit.
110
The sad fact is that Canadian's ARE getting fatter by the year. We just have not caught up to the USA yet.
Anecdotally I am about 15 pounds overweight and living in Vancouver I feel absolutely OBESE. Every time I fly into the USA, even though I have not shed a single pound, I immediately feel to be Mr. Slim Jim before I even exit the airport. I guess everything is relative.
Before I exit the airport I also realize that all the blaring warnings of TERRRRORRRISTSSSSSS may have an effect on weight issues. I mean government induced paranoia must have an effect on eating habits and stress levels. Stressed out folks simply eat more....to numb the pain of existing in a constant state of fear.
Anecdotally I am about 15 pounds overweight and living in Vancouver I feel absolutely OBESE. Every time I fly into the USA, even though I have not shed a single pound, I immediately feel to be Mr. Slim Jim before I even exit the airport. I guess everything is relative.
Before I exit the airport I also realize that all the blaring warnings of TERRRRORRRISTSSSSSS may have an effect on weight issues. I mean government induced paranoia must have an effect on eating habits and stress levels. Stressed out folks simply eat more....to numb the pain of existing in a constant state of fear.
111
Canadian snack foods are sub-par compared to the US. Oreos made by Mr Christie in Canada compared to Nabisco are so so so lame. Same is true for countless other cookies and chips. The croissants and real pastry, on the other hand, are so good that maybe people only eat 1 and don't go for the Doritos. How do I know? I live part-time in the Quebec province, part-time in the US every week. I know of what I eat.
Also Canada is about 15 years behind the US in assholian, destructive policies. Their obesity will continue to creep up until national figures up north recognize this.
Also Canada is about 15 years behind the US in assholian, destructive policies. Their obesity will continue to creep up until national figures up north recognize this.
112
@109 Thanks!!! I'm typing all these suggestions into my phone, so they'll be close at hand the next time I'm there. I think I could quite happily live on Japanese food. We have friends who invite us over for that hot pot meal where you cook everything in seaweed broth in the middle of the table, and they make those little egg custard miso soup cups...mmmm.
113
I am European. The reason for the difference is that Americans, in general are stupid. Studies show that the more educated a person is the less likely he is to be overweight, so simplifying a bit smart people are fit and stupid people are fat. Often here in Europe, when we encounter American tourists they make us Europeans exclaim "Stupid Americans!", thereby proving that Americans are dumb. The Canadians, on the other hand, never merit a "Stupid Canadians!" exclamation. The concept doesn't even exist, and we would never imagine calling a Québécois "stupide" despite his strange accent. Canadians, then, are not stupid like Americans, and therefore Canadians are fitter than Americans. Donc, l'explication est très simple, non?
116
@107. 36.32$ a day??? Im a beer-swilling idiot, and even I know that figure is bs. Agony has it right - good food is not more expensive, its just harder to make and not as immediately tasty. What do you think most of the world lives on? Rice, lentils and beans, every day. All I hear is too many excuses, too much whining... Listen to what agony is saying - he/she just gave you a recipe for a nutritious, cheap, tasty sounding meal prepared in about 45min (30 of those is the dish just baking).
117
Yes, in the abstract, it is possible to eat well and cheaply. However, especially for poor people, healthy requires a lot of effort for a few reasons.
The first is logistical: grocers are either not present or nearby, are more expensive, or have poor quality or unappealing stock. The best (easiest, cheapest) option frequently is low-quality food. The second is a matter of capability: cooking is not natural or simple. It requires frequent practice, surplus resources, and active guidance, all of which may be in short supply. The third is cultural: cooking and eating is a social activity. This last is why poor eating habits in a poor community are so resistant to change; you can't simply nag or preach the problem into submission. (Sloggers, take note.)
The first is logistical: grocers are either not present or nearby, are more expensive, or have poor quality or unappealing stock. The best (easiest, cheapest) option frequently is low-quality food. The second is a matter of capability: cooking is not natural or simple. It requires frequent practice, surplus resources, and active guidance, all of which may be in short supply. The third is cultural: cooking and eating is a social activity. This last is why poor eating habits in a poor community are so resistant to change; you can't simply nag or preach the problem into submission. (Sloggers, take note.)
118
I don't know if its been mentioned, but one of the reasons Canadians weigh less than us it that they can't figure out how to make a proper burrito. They're saving thousands of calories in sour cream, guacamole and cheese right there.
119
Shiro is definitely my favorite sushi place in Vancouver. Very traditional, fresh and yummy. I find the all-you-can-gorge places not worth it for the quality of food.
As for the fat battle, I would think that portion size is one of the largest differences between the US and Canada. That and the fact that the US grocery aisles have 4 rows of pop and junk food while the Canadian grocery store have one or in some cases half of one. Maybe its all about excess. The Americans always wanna do everything big and large scale while the Canucks are happy to be humble.
As for the fat battle, I would think that portion size is one of the largest differences between the US and Canada. That and the fact that the US grocery aisles have 4 rows of pop and junk food while the Canadian grocery store have one or in some cases half of one. Maybe its all about excess. The Americans always wanna do everything big and large scale while the Canucks are happy to be humble.
120
I just wanted to say that I was reading this article and the commentary whilst eating Oreos and milk. Go Team America!
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