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Friday, May 13, 2011


Posted by on Fri, May 13, 2011 at 8:24 AM

That's some subject line. The email it came with is after the jump.

So how do you get 4 homosexuals on a barstool? Turn it upside down! Ha! Is that funny? No? Why not—they like stuff up their ass don;t they? yes but the overall tone/effect/gestalt of the joke is to convey derision and disrespect. it's the kind of joke i'm sure you got sick of seeing people tolerate and pass on.

However you replied to an obviously fake letter with a snotty putdown of vegans. Some guy said his mistresss wanted him to eat bland slop, what should he do? You said look for a vegan restaurant. Isnt that boorish stupid jock behavior just meant to belittle? The taste of food depends on how its prepared regardless of whether is vegan or not. Veganism is about animal rights, individual rights, the environment, its a broader issue than one persons taste, and i know what you're thinking Johnny One Note "Vegans can get married and i cant so Fuck You Douchetard" Vegans get their rights violated just as bad when ther cant get decent food in hospitals, jails, various institutions + lots of places all over, and frankly Dan if you think you're plight is any greater than the plight of any other oppressed group, you are a jackass. Being gay is not as difficult as being crippled or black. Its like being left handed. 10% always have been/will be, and sure it's a choice; You can use your right hand if you want to , it just doesnt feel as comfy. Its a hell of a lot more of a choice than being born with a club foot or extra melanin. Your readers are mostly immature impressionable people, now they think it's okay to trash vegans. One day, just as lefthanders are no longer maligned, you too will be able to get married, and you can hasten your cause by not alienating many many potential allies with your arrogance and frequent insults. Havent seen your utube jive but how about posting an apology to all the people youve bullied just to show how sincere you are? you dont have to list them or anything there isnt enough hard drive space but say "to any of the millions i've pissed on SORRY"

Standing Against Lame Arrogant Dan Savage

I'll going to get right on that apology, SALAD.


Comments (177) RSS

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TreGibbs 1
"...being crippled or black" ??? Fucking lunatic... I vote for a constitutional ban on vegans !

Was this "douchetard" born vegan? Or was that a choice he made?

Again, fucking lunatic.
Posted by TreGibbs on May 13, 2011 at 8:31 AM · Report this
Canadian Nurse 2
Why do people think that illiterate rants are going to help their cause? Do people think that they will? Are they aware that their rants are barely readable with their poor grammar, spelling and lack of cohesive structure?

I feel quite comfortable betting that the average well-written SLOG reader is older, wiser, more educated and much more cynical (therefore less impressionable) than SALAD.
Posted by Canadian Nurse on May 13, 2011 at 8:34 AM · Report this
Vince 3
Some people can be so ugly. Was it Ghandi who said something like "Be the change you want to see in others"?
Posted by Vince on May 13, 2011 at 8:34 AM · Report this
4 illiterate, homophobic vegan. I just need to find a Birther vegetarian and a Quaker gun nut and I'll finally have my incoherent ideology bingo!
Posted by Halcyonic on May 13, 2011 at 8:35 AM · Report this
Fifty-Two-Eighty 5
Immature? I'm pushing 60. Don't think so. But yeah, it's OK to trash vegans. By all means, have at it.
Posted by Fifty-Two-Eighty on May 13, 2011 at 8:35 AM · Report this
Technique is only a component of cooking. In most cooking, quality of ingredients is far more important than technique.

I don't trust a man who won't consume animal tissue. Also don't trust a man who won't drink. Also don't trust a man who insists on the superiority of the corpus of the English language.
Posted by Central Scrutinizer on May 13, 2011 at 8:37 AM · Report this
Womyn2me 7
I would think that if your mistress makes you eat bland slop, going to a vegan restaurant would be a slight step up. so it was really a compliment.

Posted by Womyn2me http://http:\\ on May 13, 2011 at 8:40 AM · Report this
see i also think dan savage is a fuckup idiot and i look forward to the day he leaves the stranger and hopefully seattle

but it has nothing to do with being gay

i just think he's a typical arrogant idiot who can go fuck himself

so i troll his slog posts all day :)
Posted by Swearengen on May 13, 2011 at 8:41 AM · Report this
ryanayr 9
Sheesh, relax sensitive vegan! He's just making fun of cooking for christ sake.
Posted by ryanayr on May 13, 2011 at 8:41 AM · Report this
Cato the Younger Younger 10
I have an urge to eat a nice veal chop followed with a sirloin chaser.
Posted by Cato the Younger Younger on May 13, 2011 at 8:42 AM · Report this
RJF 11
You don't win friends with SALAD.
Posted by RJF on May 13, 2011 at 8:42 AM · Report this
Catalina Vel-DuRay 12
Personally, I've always like that bar stool joke. It's just such a strange visual image. And I'm about as gay as they come.
Posted by Catalina Vel-DuRay on May 13, 2011 at 8:43 AM · Report this
seandr 13
Dan, you once made a joke about self-righteous douchebags in your column, and as a self-righteous douchebag, I'll have you know that I felt quite bullied indeed.

I said nothing at the time, I just quietly wept to myself. But thanks to SALAD, I now have the courage to speak up. On behalf of self-righteous douchebags everywhere, stop the bullying, Savage!
Posted by seandr on May 13, 2011 at 8:46 AM · Report this
Hehe. Oh, the poor, poor oppressed vegan. I wonder if he writes these unintelligible, rambling emails to Alton Brown, too. I went to an Alton Brown talk and book signing where he spent basically the whole of the Q&A making fun of a vegan. All the poor maligned vegan did was ask the meanie Alton if he'd do some vegan episodes of his popular show. Obviously this type of abuse by the media elite needs to stop.
Posted by moosefan on May 13, 2011 at 8:46 AM · Report this
Just for that assault on grammar, SALAD, and because I'm cranky today, I'm going to feed my kid some meat in your name tonight. Bon apetit!
Posted by teamcanada on May 13, 2011 at 8:48 AM · Report this
Somebody needs to make a viral internet video of four guys sitting on a bar stool.
Posted by Reg on May 13, 2011 at 8:49 AM · Report this
I always thought Dan's anti-Veganism was pretty funny. That said, would love to take Dan out to Chowpatti out by Westshore Mall next time he's in Chicago. They have tasty delicious vegan food! Omnomonom!
Posted by thesoko on May 13, 2011 at 8:50 AM · Report this
In fact, I suggest Four Guys, One Bar Stool as a video for the next Hump.
Posted by Reg on May 13, 2011 at 8:51 AM · Report this
Heather 19
WTF? some vegans think they occupy some special place in the word that requires us to bow down to something that is merely a dietary choice and and nothing more. I am an omnivore, but there are some foods I choose not to eat however I don't make a big deal about my choices and I don't preach at others to not eat haggis. There are vegans who do no witness for veganism and who are just matter of factly vegan. They don't judge others over something as trivial as their diets.
As for vegans like the letter writer things will only get better for them when they realize that dietary choices are not something that should become what defines you. We are not impressed that you don't consume animal products and we are not going to treat you with deference. Your chances of converting the world to veganism are zero and omnivores should deride and mock the vegans who want to guilt trip us out of our dietary choices.
Posted by Heather on May 13, 2011 at 8:53 AM · Report this
Queen of Cups 20
The reason people rip on vegans all the time is the same reason people rip on Jehovah's Witnesses: they evangelize and give everyone who isn't exactly like them a hard time about eating animals, wearing leather, eating cheese and yogurt, etc. The first rule of civilized society, as set down by George Carlin (Joe bless him), is "Thou Shalt Keep Thine Religion To Thineself". Once you begin to violate this rule by going "EW!" when I have a grilled cheese sandwich, or by giving me grief because of my $300 leather Fluevogs, you open yourself up to merciless ridicule. MERCILESS.

I don't care if you don't eat animals or animal products or wear leather. I don't care if you think it's okay for PETA to send naked women into the streets of Seattle in the middle of winter to protest people eating fish or some shit. If you don't want me to make fun of you for it, don't fucking tell me about it. And no, that's not the same as me telling a gay person that I don't want to see their gay. Being a self-righteous idiot is a choice.
Posted by Queen of Cups on May 13, 2011 at 8:55 AM · Report this
It doesn't seem to have occurred to the LW that people who are put off by Dan's vitriolic humor have the option of not reading his column.
Posted by Ken Mehlman on May 13, 2011 at 8:58 AM · Report this
Looking For a Better Read 22

To get extra credit this year, it should be a seven-legged bar stool.
Posted by Looking For a Better Read on May 13, 2011 at 8:58 AM · Report this
Andy_Squirrel 23
I'm not even a vegan or vegetarian and I pretty much agree with this guy, Dan should stay away from this topic, he is just alienating people for no good reason.

Dan is one of those guys that I idolized at first but the more I listen to him, read his writing and actually listen to people's criticisms of his own personal bigotry, the less I respect him. It is sad in a way because he really accomplishes quite a bit of good in the world. I'm losing faith in you Dan.
Posted by Andy_Squirrel on May 13, 2011 at 8:59 AM · Report this
Catalina Vel-DuRay 24
And you know, the bar stool joke/movie doesn't have to be about gay people.

"Four guys who enjoy getting pegged walk into a bar with limited seating....."
Posted by Catalina Vel-DuRay on May 13, 2011 at 9:00 AM · Report this
samktg 25
Dogmatic vegans are incredibly obnoxious. The absolute worst are dogmatic anarcho-vegans.
Posted by samktg on May 13, 2011 at 9:01 AM · Report this
Keister Button 26
Some people, on a restricted diet that requires greater scrutiny to balance of protein versus carbohydrates, don't fare so well and deteriorate into brain fog or dementia as a result of nutritional deficiency. When I hear of vegans turning klepto or smashing tofu pie into authors' faces or writing hostile letters I don't automatically think of moral gentle people: I think of fatigued individuals who aren't getting the adequate fats and nutrients their brains need to work well.
Posted by Keister Button on May 13, 2011 at 9:02 AM · Report this
Fifty-Two-Eighty 27
Fluevogs? Ew. I don't care about the leather, but you lose points for fugly.
Posted by Fifty-Two-Eighty on May 13, 2011 at 9:03 AM · Report this
BEG 28
Never thought I'd wade through something that made the nigerian prince posts comprehensible in comparison.

And I say that as someone who likes & appreciates vegan food (though I eat many things besides vegan).
Posted by BEG!/browneyedgirl65 on May 13, 2011 at 9:05 AM · Report this
Zamboni 29
And of course, the offensive joke at the beginning of the letter is also offensive to straight people. Believe it or not, it's not ONLY gay guys who enjoy having objects crammed in their rectal orifice now and then.

Enjoying having a prostate don't make you gay.
Posted by Zamboni on May 13, 2011 at 9:06 AM · Report this
Fifty-Two-Eighty 30
And at this point, Andy Squirrel is running neck-and-neck with WiS for the title of the biggest idiot on Slog, so I don't think I'd worry too much about what he has to say either.
Posted by Fifty-Two-Eighty on May 13, 2011 at 9:07 AM · Report this
No trees were harmed in the making of this vegan's cross.
Posted by skittlen on May 13, 2011 at 9:07 AM · Report this
As a vegan for a little over a decade now, I would like apologize to anyone that has ever had to deal with someone like this. Jesus christ.
Posted by Cappelletti on May 13, 2011 at 9:08 AM · Report this
samktg 33
@31, Coal to generate the electricity necessary to push information through the intertubes.
Posted by samktg on May 13, 2011 at 9:09 AM · Report this
As a vegetarian, I'm ashamed to be associated with this imbecile. Ugh.

Look, I'd rather not be the butt of jokes (and I have been, not just for being vegetarian) but come on already. If you can't handle it, don't be a vegan. It's a choice. (Unless you have allergies or can no longer digest meat, I guess. I accidentally ate something with fish flakes in it, and the stomach pain was not fun...)

Anyway, Dan isn't bullying us. He was poking fun, maybe, but you should take it with a grain of salt. Jeeze.

Regardless... Don't give SALADS more fodder to complain about. That's what they're looking for. It makes them feel self-righteous and justified in spewing out ridiculous rants like this one. "See! I'm being oppressed!"

And enjoy your meat, @10! Just don't put any on my plate, and you can have as much as you want.
Posted by Namae nante iranai! on May 13, 2011 at 9:09 AM · Report this
nseattlite 35
@11--I choked on my coffee--awesome retort.
Posted by nseattlite on May 13, 2011 at 9:11 AM · Report this
Sargon Bighorn 36
Oh dear, some one needs a nap.
Posted by Sargon Bighorn on May 13, 2011 at 9:13 AM · Report this
A Concerned Parent 37
People don't hate vegans because they're vegans...

People hate vegans because they act like uppity children whenever someone says the word vegan. Really, vegans? In no way is your inability to find a vegan restaurant a comparable plight to the persecution and murder of gay people around the world. How many vegans have been murdered for being flamboyantly vegan? None.

He is right about the left handed thing though. I'm left handed and I think its the only reason I haven't gotten laid yet.
Posted by A Concerned Parent on May 13, 2011 at 9:14 AM · Report this
More proof that most vegans are preachy douchebag
Posted by j2patter on May 13, 2011 at 9:15 AM · Report this
Too much red meat? Too little? Don't know, care even less.
Posted by wascal wabbit on May 13, 2011 at 9:18 AM · Report this
Posted by wisepunk on May 13, 2011 at 9:18 AM · Report this
@38 - see SALAD? Fuck you, you're not helping.
Posted by Cappelletti on May 13, 2011 at 9:19 AM · Report this
The main reason I stay out of jail is to avoid eating the food.
I don't eat meat but I really don't care if anyone jokes about it.
Posted by sall on May 13, 2011 at 9:22 AM · Report this
More, I Say! 43
Well, no one is here reppin' for southpaws, so as a leftie myself, let me just say....I definitely did not choose to be left handed. Yes, I know it's super-cool and unique and it definitely makes me more interesting and more attractive, and I know you're really jealous and you're only saying that because you secretly wish you were as left-handed as me, but alas, as that one person who sings the songs the kids like says, "I was born this way" or something like that.
Posted by More, I Say! on May 13, 2011 at 9:22 AM · Report this
I'm left handed, and I choose not to write right-handed in much the same way that squid choose not to roller-skate.
Posted by Thunderplunk on May 13, 2011 at 9:23 AM · Report this
We shouldn't judge, it's possible that the lack of B vitamins has caused irreversible neurological damage.
Posted by Cloudgazer on May 13, 2011 at 9:25 AM · Report this
Dingo 46
11 FTW.
Posted by Dingo on May 13, 2011 at 9:26 AM · Report this
samktg 47
@Capelletti, thank you for providing proof not all vegans are dogmatic pricks. As a vegetarian who mostly keeps his vegetarianism to himself, I hate automatically being associated in most people's minds with the most vocal and obnoxious segment of herbivores. We should be allies, but their hardline approach is incredibly divisive and alienating.
Posted by samktg on May 13, 2011 at 9:29 AM · Report this
bitch needs a baccon burger.
Posted by Adrian Ryan on May 13, 2011 at 9:29 AM · Report this
Heh, that bartstool joke reminds me of Wednesday night, my first time pegging a guy and then fisting another guy (his wife instructed me through it).

Ah, good times. ^w^

So glad the vegans/vegetarians I know are SANE! I didn't even know one was until I asked why she didn't go for the leather riding crop.
Posted by blah on May 13, 2011 at 9:30 AM · Report this
To clarify, SALAD, is being right handed a choice? Or only left handed? I'm pretty sure I could write with my left hand if I chose to. My handwriting would be pretty illegible, I'd be super uncomfortable, have to concentrate extermely hard and even with years of practice I think I'd still be better at using my right hand. I've hurt my right hand before making it nearly impossible to do super mundane things like unlock my door, open a door, turn on a faucet, etc. And for some reason I still tried to do all these things with my right hand, seemingly unconsciously. Perhaps I'm just really bad at the whole choice thing but my brain and my body seem bent on this choice I made as an infant to be right hand dominate.
Posted by moosefan on May 13, 2011 at 9:32 AM · Report this
Uh, just so you all know, there are a lot of vegans and vegetarians out there who aren't in your face about it. You'd never know if you didn't eat together, etc. Or even if you did eat together.

I say this because I once had the following conversation.

"I don't know why, but I've never met or heard of a male vegetarian," I was saying to a friend of mine at lunch. "All the ones I know are girls. I don't think that there are any."

"I'm a vegetarian?" he offered, shrugging. "And there are a couple mote. There's another one in the CS Department."

I was pretty embarrassed. I don't even remember why the topic came up, but we'd been friends for years...

People know I'm a vegetarian because I mostly socialize at the cafeteria and other events that involve food. At first, some acquaintances tried making fun of me and noisily eating meat in front of me, but once they realized that I didn't care if they ate meat, they cut it out.

I think you have a right to eat meat, and I have a right to not eat meat. I accept that this means I can't go to some restaurants and my choices are limited in a lot of places. All I ask is, well... Don't assume we're all jerks or idiots just because we aren't vocal about our vegetarian-ness.

And, yeah, SALADS? You really aren't helping our situation at all, and people like you are the ones who make everything harder for me and my non-preachy vegetarianism. Please stop. Please.
Posted by Namae nante iranai! on May 13, 2011 at 9:32 AM · Report this
Oh my!
Posted by Soo on May 13, 2011 at 9:35 AM · Report this
LogopolisMike 54
I also love that 4 gays on a bar stool joke... for some reason it also reminds me of that joke "if you don't have anything nice to say about anybody, come sit by me!" I'm not sure if it's because I'm looking for 3 other people to share a stool with or because both seem like fairly stereotypical gay behaviors that I'm proud to exhibit. Because seriously, if I don't get the benefit of ass fucking or being a judgmental bitch, what's the point of being a homo -- except for the love of my partner and all?


Okay, that was my attempt to do a rambling response in the style of SALAD. But I can't do it. Parodying shitty writing is really fucking hard.

Also, agreed -- 11 FTW.
Posted by LogopolisMike on May 13, 2011 at 9:35 AM · Report this
I can find any number of vegan media outlets that refer to eating meat as a disgusting practice. I have listened to vegans openly state that cooking my great-grandmother's sauce recipe is a moral travesty. I have been told by vegans who have never sucked my dick that they know for a fact my semen tastes horrible! I'm sure there are some NALT vegans out there, and they need to speak up and tell their poorly behaved brethren to shut it!
Posted by LukeJoe on May 13, 2011 at 9:36 AM · Report this
I'm so slow! *more, not mote. Silly autocorrect... Sorry about that.
Posted by Namae nante iranai! on May 13, 2011 at 9:43 AM · Report this
jBee 57
Give SALAD a break, guys. I'd be crank too if my lack if protien intake was forcing my body to cannibalize itself.
Posted by jBee on May 13, 2011 at 9:43 AM · Report this
@51. I agree, to a point. I'm not interested in being self-righteous or preachy about my dietary choices. At the same time however, I'm not going to sit back and pretend that I think using animal products is ok, if I'm confronted about it.

The operative phrase there is "If I'm confronted about it."

And I'm sorry, but asking for a vegan option, even to Alton Best-Anal-Retentive-Chef-Impression-Since-Phil-Hartman Brown, doesn't deserve mockery, scorn or ridicule. A simple answer would suffice.
Posted by j.lee on May 13, 2011 at 9:44 AM · Report this
bleedingheartlibertarian 59
If ever you need evidence that fanaticism transcends ideology...
Posted by bleedingheartlibertarian on May 13, 2011 at 9:45 AM · Report this
This letter illustrates my entire problem with the concept fo privilege. Instead of focusing on commonalities of oppressed minorities we decide that our own minority is the most oppressed or that if nothing else everyone else has it better than we do. It's a tool invented by the elites to sow dissent among the lower class. And we're swallowing it hook line and sinker.
Posted by Zrob on May 13, 2011 at 9:45 AM · Report this
@11: I love you.
Posted by renbot on May 13, 2011 at 9:52 AM · Report this
@58 - I don't know. I think a vegan asking Alton Brown to do an episode arch that caters to their personal dietary choices should expect to get mocked. Just as anyone writing to Dan Savage should expect to get mocked. It's not like this vegan accidentally ended up in the 1st row, dead-center of an Alton Brown reading. She knew about his feelings on veganism and vegetarianism, she knew about his humor and she asked anyway. (Oh, and I know she knew about his feelings on veganism because she mentioned them in her question so I'm not assuming anything.)
Posted by moosefan on May 13, 2011 at 9:52 AM · Report this
someone doesn't know the meaning of the word "bully." a snarky comment conveying dan's belief that vegan food is tasteless is not bullying. you have not been bullied, SALAD. your kind has not been maligned, your rights have not been challenged, your choices are not threatened by dan's snark. maybe this just proves you need to eat food with creatine and taurine in it...? you, know, to chase away the crazy?
Posted by ellarosa on May 13, 2011 at 9:52 AM · Report this
oh, and zrob @ 60: spot on. very, very good point indeed.
Posted by ellarosa on May 13, 2011 at 9:55 AM · Report this
@58, Ah, so you're doing it for moral reasons? Yeah, I can see how that'd be harder. I do have moral beliefs on the subject, but they're too complicated to bother getting into here. My main reason for being a vegetarian is environmental issues. I don't see meat eating as something immoral, although I myself can't bring myself to do it any more.

This is actually the case with a lot of my moral and political beliefs.

I do agree very strongly with your second point, though. Also, if I'm confronted about it, I'll defend myself. There are plenty of people who want to tell me that I'm unhealthy, not doing what I was designed to do, and so forth. (Well, those are the most logical and least rude things, anyway.) I'm eating more healthfully now than I was as an omnivore... Also, it helped me get over my picky eating.
Posted by Namae nante iranai! on May 13, 2011 at 9:55 AM · Report this
aardvark 66
this is just like those slutwalk uber feminists
Posted by aardvark on May 13, 2011 at 9:59 AM · Report this
And, @62, what are Alton Brown's views on vegetarianism? I just figured he was an ordinary TV chef. Does he have something against vegetarians? I've never heard of him before.
Posted by Namae nante iranai! on May 13, 2011 at 10:00 AM · Report this
Knat 68
Any argument that employs such awful grammar, terrible sentence structure and such obvious typos in the age of spell check (not to mention its strident and condescending tone in a letter about being oppressed) is rightfully dismissed out-of-hand.
Posted by Knat on May 13, 2011 at 10:06 AM · Report this
Summerisle 70
Couldn't get through the 4th sentence. Bad grammar and worse sentence structure drives me nuts.
Posted by Summerisle on May 13, 2011 at 10:19 AM · Report this
@66 oh, please enlighten us on how.....(really I want to see you dig the hole, please explain to use why women should expect to be raped)
Posted by Zrob on May 13, 2011 at 10:20 AM · Report this

It's because of people like you that sometimes if my vegetarianism comes up in conversation, people will immediately get defensive and start telling me why they aren't vegetarian. I always assure them that I respect the dietary choices of others and give the example of how my husband isn't vegetarian.

Your rant is often incoherent and offensive. You owe an apology to those you, to use your own term, have "pissed on" in your letter to Dan.
Posted by canada girl on May 13, 2011 at 10:25 AM · Report this
You_Gotta_Be_Kidding_Me 74
Paper thin skin is a symptom of the malnourishment caused by a diet lacking animal protein.
Posted by You_Gotta_Be_Kidding_Me on May 13, 2011 at 10:33 AM · Report this
Fifty-Two-Eighty 75
Aardvark, has anyone told you that you're an imbecile? Because you need to be told that as often as possible.
Posted by Fifty-Two-Eighty on May 13, 2011 at 10:33 AM · Report this
ForkyMcSpoon 76
"I'll going to get right on that"?

It's either "I'm going to get right on that" or "I'll get right on that"

Posted by ForkyMcSpoon on May 13, 2011 at 10:34 AM · Report this
despicable me 77
SALADS has a point, Dan, you are a bully and a hypocrite at times. But they're also wrong, some things do get better. Make it better for everyone by giving someone 2 minutes of your time.
Posted by despicable me on May 13, 2011 at 10:39 AM · Report this
theseamster 78
@11 - to follow on others: Total fucking win.
Posted by theseamster on May 13, 2011 at 10:41 AM · Report this
I'm pretty sure if we were as immature and easily inflamed as SALAD, lefties could raise at least as much of a stink. There are plenty of things that are biased toward right-handed people (that righties don't even notice.) We don't, though, because most lefties don't define themselves by their handedness.

(Though, as a side note, I enjoy talking to a couple of wgst people I know... when they correct me on "mankind" or something, I tell them I'll start saying "humankind" instead of "mankind" if they start saying "correct" instead of "right"...)
Posted by KnickKname on May 13, 2011 at 10:54 AM · Report this
very bad homo 80
I've never met a vegan who wasn't a total weirdo.
Posted by very bad homo on May 13, 2011 at 10:56 AM · Report this
Lance Thrustwell 81
@77 - you usually make sense, DM. Are you mimicing SALADS' incoherent style to mock him?
Posted by Lance Thrustwell on May 13, 2011 at 11:00 AM · Report this
Bonefish 82
Wow; this guy is almost whiny enough to be a teabagger. Way to give John Stewart more ammo for his "both sides are equally crazy" bullshit.
Posted by Bonefish on May 13, 2011 at 11:07 AM · Report this
What a hot mess.

In other news, I saw the It Gets Better Google Chrome ad for the first time last night during The Office. Loved it! :)
Posted by MissJess on May 13, 2011 at 11:08 AM · Report this
Lissa 84
@11: I must also conga on in and add my applause.

@72 & 75: Thank you. Aardvark needs a good smacking.

On topic: I know quite a few vegetarians/vegans and only one of them ever made me want to kill and eat her. We took her to Café Flora, which is a wonderful vegetarian/vegan restaurant, and she still did nothing but whine that there was nothing offered that she would like to eat. So maybe it's the fact that we remember the whiners that gives vegans a negative rep?
Posted by Lissa on May 13, 2011 at 11:13 AM · Report this
Original Andrew 85
I've been vegetarian now for 14 years, and I've never told anyone not to eat meat. Most vegans/vegetarians mind their own business and politely answer questions about their diet only when asked.

The lesson here is that some people are overly sensitive, reactionary loudmouths, some are not. Abortions for some, tiny AmeriKKKan flags for others.
Posted by Original Andrew on May 13, 2011 at 11:13 AM · Report this
NatL 86
I just couldn't think of enough incoherent word pairings to adequately imitate SALAD so this will have to do: SALAD, When you make a judgement about a person or group of people (all readers of the SLOG) you're saying nothing about them and everything about you. As your "mature" name calling has demonstrated, people aren't going to flock to your cause because you belittle them.
Posted by NatL on May 13, 2011 at 11:17 AM · Report this
spaceapple 87
I thought Dan's original response, where he told the guy to go to a Vegan restaurant, was one of the funniest things he's ever written.
Posted by spaceapple on May 13, 2011 at 11:24 AM · Report this
Get a sense of humor about yourself.
Posted by Gendun on May 13, 2011 at 11:29 AM · Report this
aardvark 89
@72 "please explain to use why women should expect to be raped"

that's what I'm talking about. im not saying that. you are. it's a joke. here's another analogy ive thought about for this- the point is that women who dress slutty or put themselves in certain situations are not to blame if they get assaulted. well, if i park under the viaduct or on the yesler bridge, and leave my laptop on the seat, am i to blame if my car gets broken into and laptop stolen? not really, but sort of. i could have used some better fucking judgement. its the same thing.

@75, feeling's mutual. if you have an argument, lets here it. otherwise fuck off.
Posted by aardvark on May 13, 2011 at 11:41 AM · Report this
Alanmt 90
Well, at least the guy has a reasonable measure of self-awareness. Even he realizes that he is a douchetard.
Posted by Alanmt on May 13, 2011 at 11:46 AM · Report this
I speak on behalf of barstools everywhere when I say: just because we are always ready, willing, and eager to do four people of any gender and orientation simultaneously, we have needs, too. If you're going to keep teasing us by repeating this joke, you've gotta put out.
Posted by beccoid on May 13, 2011 at 11:48 AM · Report this
samktg 93
@aardvark, I'm not sure if you've been told this before, but you're an imbecile.
Posted by samktg on May 13, 2011 at 11:54 AM · Report this
aardvark 94
@93 im fucking right too!
Posted by aardvark on May 13, 2011 at 12:20 PM · Report this
Geez, gay vegans must be downright intolerable.

Plus the stupid joke wouldn't work for them...there's no way anything else is going up their ass.
Posted by hominidX on May 13, 2011 at 12:35 PM · Report this
Yeah, I don't trust vegans who don't mind other people eating meat. Unless they're vegans because they don't like the taste of meat, obviously.

But if you think animals have reason and feelings and it's wrong to kill them then how can you not mind people killing them? It would be like not raping and murdering people because you think it's wrong but being OK with other people's choice to rape and murder. Something seriously wrong about that attitude.
Posted by tiare on May 13, 2011 at 12:43 PM · Report this
I know quite a few vegans, and none of them are militant psychos. I'm sure there are people who do fit into the 'Angry Vegan' stereotype, but this letter is just ridiculously over the top- I'm guessing someone's trolling here.
Posted by Pinky on May 13, 2011 at 12:43 PM · Report this
Michael of the Green 98
I'm a pretty serious carnivore, but really look forward to the day that vegan-bashing goes out of style. It's just such a tedious cliché (as are the people doing it).
Posted by Michael of the Green on May 13, 2011 at 12:49 PM · Report this
"Being gay is not as difficult as being crippled or black. Its like being left handed. 10% always have been/will be, and sure it's a choice; You can use your right hand if you want to , it just doesnt feel as comfy."

But your right hand won't care if it finds out you're living a lie.
Posted by KCFrance on May 13, 2011 at 12:59 PM · Report this
I love vegetarian food but I love meat too. I've only had vegan restaurant food a couple of times, and I liked it, except when I accidentally ordered a curry that had tofu in it (description didn't mention tofu, which I HATE) and that wasn't so fun.

My sister is mostly vegetarian because she only eats free-range animals because she's anti-cage and anti-meat-industry and you really can never tell what is truly free-range, especially here in the US. I can't understand why she won't eat fish in that case - I mean, they're fished out of the ocean...but it's her choice.
Posted by ladyrockess on May 13, 2011 at 12:59 PM · Report this
lewlew 101
Letterman* said that due to a typo, Osama got to heaven and there were 72 vegans... :(

*plays a funny jerk on TV
Posted by lewlew on May 13, 2011 at 1:13 PM · Report this
Maybe the web has made me a paranoid cynic, but sometimes I wonder if people like SALAD are actually online parodies designed to undermine respect for the people they claim to speak for. Part of me thinks SALAD is anti-vegan and trying to discredit veganism. If so, "heckuva job, Brownie!"
Posted by wellokaythen on May 13, 2011 at 1:22 PM · Report this
@96 The moral claims of veganism are dubious, at best. Humans evolved as omnivores, and cannot thrive or successfully reproduce as pure herbivores absent technological intervention (specifically B12 supplementation). If your moral system tells you not to do something that your species needs to do in order to thrive and reproduce successfully, your moral system is broken.
Posted by rocketgeek on May 13, 2011 at 1:30 PM · Report this
Wow, what a buttsore vegan. Guess that's what happens when you eat way too much roughage.
Posted by mentos on May 13, 2011 at 1:32 PM · Report this
@ 103, But vegans don't think of their moral system as broken, or they wouldn't be vegans. So I suspect that vegans who claim that they don't mind meat eaters' dietary choices are not being honest. Either that or they're confused beyond belief. Even if you're a vegan for environmental reason surely you can't be OK with people eating meat or driving gas guzzlers etc. I think that vegans MUST judge me for eating meat - and those vegans who are honest about it are more worthy of respect. Strangely, instead of respect all they get is vilification. Guess we prefer being judged behind our back.
Posted by tiare on May 13, 2011 at 1:53 PM · Report this
Lissa 106
@94: aardvark. I'll be participating in Seattle Slut Walk on Father's Day, and I invite you to join me. You'll be able to identify me by my slutty, slutty outfit. How slutty you ask, you naughty boy?
Are you ready?

I'll be wearing Levis, a red sweatshirt (size large), boots, and one of those black and white Palestinian scarves wrapped around my neck.

Which is exactly what I was wearing 29 years ago, the afternoon I was raped at knife point.

Fuck you and your car stereo.
Posted by Lissa on May 13, 2011 at 2:01 PM · Report this
balderdash 107
y u mad tho, veganbro?

y u mad?
Posted by balderdash on May 13, 2011 at 2:08 PM · Report this
I read Slog despite the often harsh rhetoric, not because of it. There's plenty that's worthwhile amongst all the making fun of people, but the mockery does make it more difficult to read and muddles some otherwise fantastic messages that Dan preaches. It happens often enough that upon reading here, I have to remind myself that sex-positive people are "Not All Like That."

It's tough to be seen as both a jokester without ill intentions AND a serious critic of those who most deserve to be mocked AND a sincere advocate for honesty and consideration standing against bullying and hatred. Dan seems to be all those things, but only upon really close examination. You can rationalize away any apparent contradictions amongst his positions, but it's tougher to stomp out the more visceral emotional tensions between those roles, and sometimes all we can do is watch our own cognitive dissonance play out on the screen.

When push comes to shove, I hope we err on the side of respectful seriousness. Angry mockery has its place when we're really oppressed, and there's still plenty enough that really oppresses us. But once we've got people's attention, it works against us. Dan is at a point in his career where he's got people's attention. He could now speak with broader moral authority if he wasn't constantly defending his more flippant remarks.
Posted by JackDitch on May 13, 2011 at 2:10 PM · Report this
seems like people like SALAD are actually meat eaters, masquerading as idiot self-righteous vegans to make the rest of us look bad...

i'm not an evangelical vegan, but i will admit to using my superior culinary skills to promote veganism to my friends and family as a healthy but delicious alternative :)
Posted by shaunamay on May 13, 2011 at 2:17 PM · Report this
blip 110
Bethany Jean Clement is probably masterbating to this comment thread right now.
Posted by blip on May 13, 2011 at 2:29 PM · Report this
@105: Oh, I realize that vegans don't believe their moral system is broken. They're simply wrong. Morality evolved and persists because it strongly benefits the survival of the species. Since strict veganism is inimical to survival absent significant technological intervention, it fails the most basic possible test of the validity of a moral system.

Also, truly sustainable vegan agriculture is likely not possible. Sustainable agricultural techniques work by creating a miniature, domesticated ecosystem that produces a surplus useful to humans. Since animals are crucial links in every land-based ecosystem, it is unlikely that you could successfully built a domesticated ecosystem without them. Since vegan moral systems typically forbid the use of animals for purely human purposes, the choices are to either abandon veganism or abandon sustainability.
Posted by rocketgeek on May 13, 2011 at 2:38 PM · Report this
Catalina Vel-DuRay 112
I've been scouring my Better Homes & Gardens Meat Cookbook (which scandalized me by having a fish section) trying to find something for SALAD, and I think I found it. It really does have something for everyone...

"Turkey-Green Grape Toss"

1-1/2 cup diced cooked turkey
1 cup thinly sliced celery
1/2 cup canned green seedless grapes (who knew they come canned? How convenient!)
1/2 cup mayonnaise
1/2 teaspoon seasoned salt

Combine all ingredients, and serve in avocado halves brushed with lemon juice (so they don't brown) Serves six.
Posted by Catalina Vel-DuRay on May 13, 2011 at 2:41 PM · Report this
@102 I was wondering the same thing. The LW's incoherent, homophobic hysteria seems like a parody of militant veganism, possibly written by a non-vegan prankster.

And while I'm happily omnivorous, plenty of tasty things are vegan--virtually all cocktails, for example, or macerated berries, or a perfectly ripe peach, or asparagus spears tossed in olive oil, salt and pepper and roasted or grilled. So while I like Alton Brown, he was going for the lazy joke in making fun of his vegan questioner rather than pointing out the plentiful 'good eats' that are devoid of animal products.
Posted by Functional Atheist on May 13, 2011 at 2:55 PM · Report this
aardvark 114
106 xx! kisses! have fun! think of me! xx
Posted by aardvark on May 13, 2011 at 2:58 PM · Report this
Original Andrew 115
It's hilariously awesome how everyone suddenly becomes experts on human nutrition, biology, farming and food-sourcing techniques whenever vegans and vegetarians are mentioned. American waistlines and dia-beetus esplosions appear to indicate otherwise.
Posted by Original Andrew on May 13, 2011 at 3:01 PM · Report this
ago 116
@115 I am an actual expert in human biology and evolution as it relates to diet. Humans are naturally omnivores; this is incontrovertible. The obesity epidemic has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with choosing to eat animal products.

It's 'hilariously awesome' how you are suddenly an expert on the obesity epidemic as soon as you criticize other people for DOING THE EXACT SAME THING
Posted by ago on May 13, 2011 at 3:09 PM · Report this
Lissa 117
@114: I'm serious. You should come. You are exactly the sort of person who needs to be educated about what rape really is and who is responsible for it.
I want you to come and march with me and allllll the other women there, and look at them, and talk to them, and realize that when you make your little car stereo analogy you are talking about people. People who got raped regardless of what they wore, or did, or didn't wear or didn't do.
Don't be a rape apologist anymore aardvark. Be a decent human being.

We now return to our regularly scheduled vegan bashing.
Posted by Lissa on May 13, 2011 at 3:15 PM · Report this
Original Andrew 119
@ 116,

Post your dissertation or GTFO.

Tick, tock...
Posted by Original Andrew on May 13, 2011 at 3:17 PM · Report this
@105, I assure you that I don't judge meat eaters for eating meat. I don't think meat eaters should judge me for eating meat, and it has to go both ways.

It helps a lot that I believe in reincarnation. I struggled with the idea of meat eating as murder when I had just become a vegetarian, and that's what really helped me get over it. That and feeling certain that many of the animals humans consume would either never be born or would be consumed anyway if humans weren't involved.

Do I want animals to be treated better while they're alive. Yes. Oh, very badly. Do I blame the people eating the meat? No! Most people can't afford grass fed beef, free range chickens, etc. Even if they can, it's their choice, and I can't step in and judge them for it any more than they ought to step into my life and order me to buy this product or that.

Do I think vegetarianism is healthier for people and the earth? Yes. But I also think that eating local, organic, fresh food at every meal would be healthier. I can't do that--I eat bananas, I eat flour and sugar and pasta made who knows where because it's cheap and I'm broke. I eat cheese and eggs and ice cream. I eat Kraft Mac and Cheese when I'm feeling cruddy. People living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, right?

To relate it to evangelism... If you believe in a different god than I do, or no god at all, then I don't feel like I should be able to judge you for that, and I don't think that you should judge me. I'm not looking to convert people to my beliefs, regardless of how passionate I am about the subject.

Does that all make sense? If not, sorry. I had a much better response typed up, but it got eaten. If you have questions, please feel free to ask.

With that, unless people address me specifically, I think I'll bow out of this conversation. I've said my piece.
Posted by Namae nante iranai! on May 13, 2011 at 3:28 PM · Report this
ago 121
@119 I'm a phd student currently working on my thesis. I'd be happy to send it along when it's done. In the mean time, feel free to check out any of my publications in major journals if you doubt my credentials, one of which is linked here.…
Posted by ago on May 13, 2011 at 3:29 PM · Report this
I love vegans/veganism. But in response to that letter, this video:…
Posted by little_kitten on May 13, 2011 at 4:00 PM · Report this
You_Gotta_Be_Kidding_Me 123
Oh! Snap!!! Sooo sucks to be @119.
Posted by You_Gotta_Be_Kidding_Me on May 13, 2011 at 4:01 PM · Report this
I can sort of - sort of - understand why you wouldn't judge meat eaters if your veganism stems from spirituality (you're in charge of your own salvation and it doesn't have to bother you if other people choose to go to hell).

But if something is unethical in your moral system - for example, breeding pets is unethical in mine - then you will speak up against it not because you feel self righteous, but because you want to give voice to those who suffer because of that practice - pets who get euthanized in shelters, in my case. I certainly can't and won't ever be OK with heartless *beep* who breed their pets and take homes away from kittens and puppies who die in shelters every day. If I could make spaying and neutering all pets legally mandatory I would - so it only makes sense to me that if ethical vegans could make veganism legally mandatory they would. Vegans fighting for meat eaters' right to eat meat sounds perverse to me - I can't imagine myself fighting for pet owners' right to produce and give away puppies and kittens, unless I got a brain tumor or something.
Posted by tiare on May 13, 2011 at 4:07 PM · Report this
Keister Button 125
Also a Stanford University professor, Dr. Christopher Gardner, a 25-year vegetarian, made a video-recorded presentation (on YouTube) "The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning?" in which he compares four popular diets for weight-loss effectiveness and healthfulness. It's 76 minutes in length, but I'm sure you can fast-track to conclusions by skipping around or by reading the comments or finding study summaries online.
Posted by Keister Button on May 13, 2011 at 4:19 PM · Report this
The last pork roast I made was rather bland, but not slop (too muscly to be slop). I probably should have put Kitchen Bouquet on it before I put in in the Crockpot (which is probably why it turned out bland). I'll do that next time.
Posted by Smell on May 13, 2011 at 4:23 PM · Report this
If we're talking about health, this diet looks like the winner to me (at least for the typical sedentary types that most of us have become):…

Posted by tiare on May 13, 2011 at 4:25 PM · Report this
You_Gotta_Be_Kidding_Me 128
Sooo… , then, if, for example, breeding is unethical in mine - then you will speak up against it not because you feel self righteous, but because you want to give voice to those who suffer because of that practice - orphans in orphanages, in my case. I certainly can't and won't ever be OK with heartless *beep* who breed and take homes away from orphans who suffer in orphanages every day. If I could make spaying and neutering all humans legally mandatory I would - so it only makes sense to me that if ethical vegans could make veganism legally mandatory they would. Vegans fighting for meat eaters' right to eat meat sounds perverse to me - I can't imagine myself fighting for parents right to produce children, unless I got a brain tumor or something.
Yeah… I guess I see how that works… Cool!
Posted by You_Gotta_Be_Kidding_Me on May 13, 2011 at 4:29 PM · Report this
That would work, 128, if there weren't more people waiting to adopt a child than children available for adoption. I wonder how is it possible that so many people don't realize that? (No, you're not the first person to try to use that argument with me.)
Posted by tiare on May 13, 2011 at 4:35 PM · Report this

Well, that's not quite it. (For one thing, I'm not fighting for their rights! I'm not going to be an activist for them, and I wouldn't want to be. I think that you're taking it a little farther than I am, if you think that's what I mean. I'm just saying that they can eat it as long as no one makes me eat it.) Anyway, I think we have different approaches to our beliefs, and we hold different things as the foundations of our beliefs.

I don't want to argue with you, and I can't think of another way to put it that seems like it'll convince you without inciting a potential argument (which would be totally counter to my aims) so I may have to stop here. If you think that my beliefs are contradictory and/or perverse, well, I can't really keep you from thinking that. I just wanted to let you know that this vegetarian, at least, isn't judging you. That's all.
Posted by Namae nante iranai! on May 13, 2011 at 4:46 PM · Report this
@118 If WBGTDWI is black then I'm a monkey's uncle.
Posted by Ken Mehlman on May 13, 2011 at 4:47 PM · Report this
No, I didn't think it was contradictory or perverse because I didn't think you were a vegan for ethical reasons (the "you" I used in the second paragraph was a general you, not you personally - I apologize for the lack of clarity in my comment).
Posted by tiare on May 13, 2011 at 4:50 PM · Report this
Oh, I'm not, at least not primarily. Thank you for that clarification. I can only speak for myself, not other vegetarians, so I don't know what to say. I really thought you meant me... I'm glad we cleared that up.
Posted by Namae nante iranai! on May 13, 2011 at 5:01 PM · Report this
@118 I think I love you
Posted by beccoid on May 13, 2011 at 6:28 PM · Report this
sheschemes 135
I'm going to go watch Scott Pilgrim again after reading this. The Vegan Police are so serious.
Posted by sheschemes on May 13, 2011 at 7:08 PM · Report this
I'm not vegan, and I can't get decent food at hospitals, jails, airlines, or other such institutions, either.
Posted by avast2006 on May 13, 2011 at 8:44 PM · Report this
fifty-two-eighty, age has nothing to do with maturity. Ever hear that girls mature faster than boys? It doesn't mean they age faster, like they have two birthdays a year or something.

I'm a vegetarian, and sometimes do have fun poking people for their carnivorous pursuits. Bite into their steak and I say MOOOOO!!!! Obviously they're friends, I tend not to poke non-friendly carnivores.…
Posted by cattycat on May 13, 2011 at 9:33 PM · Report this
Sigh. I'm a vegan. Vegans are hardly oppressed (generally they're white and predominantly well-off). And, that isn't the point, SALAD. If you're vegan, animals are the ones being oppressed, not you. Going to prison? Request PBJ and stop implying that any form of sexism, racism, heterosexism, etc, etc is less worse than any others. IT'S ALL WRONG.
Posted by jay_kateel on May 13, 2011 at 10:23 PM · Report this
The guy who sat in front of me in 11th grade history was left-handed. The only benefit I noticed was that no one could copy off of him.
Posted by Humorless on May 14, 2011 at 1:35 AM · Report this
Fuck you, LW.
Posted by puddles on May 14, 2011 at 1:49 AM · Report this
chemambru 142
@137 for the win!
Posted by chemambru on May 14, 2011 at 4:05 AM · Report this
Rob in Baltimore 143
Well maybe an upside-down bar stool would sit four gays, but SALAD needs to get the stick out of her ass.
Posted by Rob in Baltimore on May 14, 2011 at 6:28 AM · Report this
Am I the only one who thinks some vegans are super pissy because they r doing it wrong and are super hungry? I know tons of vegans who eat nothing but pita chips and peanut butter. Like, if we gave this guy a nice steak (cow or vegetable based--whatever) he'd be like "geez, I'm sorrry dan. I don't even remember writing that!"
Posted by sallybobally on May 14, 2011 at 6:52 AM · Report this
For the life of me I can't understand why people think that vegans are a bunch of petty, humorless, sanctimonious autocrats.
Posted by mtiffany71 on May 14, 2011 at 7:13 AM · Report this
"That would work, 128, if there weren't more people waiting to adopt a child than children available for adoption."

Repeated for emphasis. This is one of the most pernicious modern lies and gets children trafficked in poor countries.
Posted by CLDG on May 14, 2011 at 9:28 AM · Report this
wow. Why does this feel like an "obvious fake letter" intended to drive a wedge between the rainbow and the vegans? The only truly angry vegan I am aware of, sacrificed himself with a gun shot at the 911 towers site after Bush won the election... This letter doesn't feel real.
Posted by heartfelt on May 14, 2011 at 11:42 AM · Report this
WTF is wrong with vegans? Christ, they aren't happy lecturing everyone about what to eat, do they have to be so fucking humorless? Lots of vegan food is TERRIBLE. I've eaten it. It's horrid. Yes, I've also eaten amazing vegan food (Greens restaurant in SF among other places) but most of it's terrible. Vegans have to know this. Or are they vegan because they have no tastebuds?

And last time I checked, being vegan most certainly is a choice.
Posted by Mike Friedman on May 14, 2011 at 1:44 PM · Report this
I'm not going to read a single comment on this because I know Sloggers already hate vegetarians/vegans, but this lunatic is not representative of a single vegan I know—and I know many. This person is crazy, and just happens to be a vegan.
Posted by mitten on May 14, 2011 at 2:07 PM · Report this
@ 148, yes it's sad that older children and children with disabilities are not as popular as babies when it comes to adoption, but that still doesn't mean that there are more children for adoption than there are people who want to adopt (is that what you're trying to prove or am I misreading you?). It just means that some people will rather stay childless or wait for years to adopt a baby than adopt an older child immediately.

@ 151, shame, I would like to hear your opinion on my comments :P
Posted by tiare on May 14, 2011 at 3:54 PM · Report this
I am neither gay nor vegan, and I don't think being vegan is as hard as being gay or that vegans are oppressed in any way. Most of the vegetarians I've met haven't been jerks about it, either.
Posted by DRF on May 14, 2011 at 9:38 PM · Report this
Am I the only one to whom the letter reminded of that Seinfeld episode with the dentist? (Season 8, Episode 19) Jerry's friend, a dentist, converts to Judaism just for being able to tell Jewish jokes... But then Jerry gets into trouble when he makes fun of dentists ("What's the difference between dentists and sadists? Newer magazines!"). His friends accuse him of bigotry (Kramer: "The next thing you'll be saying they need their own schools or something!" Jerry: "But... but they have their own schools!" Kramer: "YOU SEE?! You're doing it already!") When Jerry tries to assert his right of making fun of dentists by comparing it to the Jewish jokes the dentist keeps telling, the guy goes "It's different! I'm a Jew! You're not a dentist!"
Hilarious episode.
Posted by Ola on May 15, 2011 at 2:58 AM · Report this
How about being gay and black- like say in Uganda? This person gives a really bad name to vegans-especially since their example joke and Savage's pun were orders of magnitude apart...what a fleatard
Posted by samshortis on May 15, 2011 at 5:20 AM · Report this
Being vegan/vegetarian is tiring. Not because we malnourished or anything, but because we have to hear all the time this kind of stupid shit about us.
Yeah, SALAD is crazy, homophobic or what ever you want. Why don't you insult him rather than all of us? When a gay piss me off, I don't start yelling homophobic slur. Now, even though I don't agree with this letter, Dan tend to be a prick when he starts to talk about other subjects than sex.

Being veggie is really different from being gay, since it's obviously a choice. Nobody got killed/thrown out of his house for being vegan but we also are being harassed, in a different way.

I've never tried to convert anyone, but I did many time (almost once for every person I've eaten with) had to justify why I wasn't eating meat. I had to politely listen to all the stupid identical arguments:
- but humans have always eaten meat/ got intelligent thanks to meat (even though we have a better life expectancy)
- you're lacking of proteins/iron/ vitamin B12! (yeah, half of the people I've talk believe they are nutrition experts, even though they know nothing of the subject)
- It's not natural! (...)
- You're in a sect (...)
And so many more.
You'll notice than all the examples above can be slightly modified to explain why gay is evil and gay marriage an abomination.

We are against something that cause countless suffering, help damaging the planet and isn't very healthy. Does that really make us worth of all this mocking?
Is it possible that there are "closeted" vegans (omnivores not comfortable with it), the same way there are homophobic closeted gays?
Posted by Kyrie on May 15, 2011 at 10:17 AM · Report this
Kyrie, you just need to get better friends. I don't know anyone, regardless of their views on vegetarianism, who would take it upon themselves to preach to people about what they eat. I don't really know many vegetarians/vegans who do this either, but I've met one or two. Either you're starting the discussion yourself, or you're friends with a lot of rude bastards.
Posted by chicago girl on May 15, 2011 at 1:04 PM · Report this
@chicago girl: from my friends, I mostly get reactions of curiosity. The problem is with colleagues and family. (Oh the dreadful Christmas meals...)
And you can choose your friends, but not your friends' friends. ^^
Posted by Kyrie on May 15, 2011 at 1:23 PM · Report this
I've been veg for over half my life, and vegan on and off during that time period. I'm pretty laid-back. I won't cook meat, or buy yr. ass a meat lunch if we're on a date ('cept my Mom: I bought her chicken pho when she came to visit, but I figure I can sacrifice for her.) If my meal gets screwed up at a restaurant and comes out with cheese, I say "well, that was a freebie" and eat it anyway. I work at a meat restaurant that prides itself on it's bacon burgers and steaks. I never make faces when I'm serving meat, when asked for a recommendation about a meal, I name and describe the most popular items (which are typically meat). People will see me eating my lunch, and that is when things get rude. "What are you, some kind of vegetarian?"


They begin to mock me, literally, deriding my life choices. They will not ask questions, but just make asinine fucking assumptions about what my life must be like. They will walk over and sit next to me while I am eating (and on my break, thanks douches) and slowly eat their bloody steak. I don't go up to them and announce my lifestyle choice. They seek it out, and then harass me. This happens at least once a week.

Cool Job.
Posted by pooponyrtoes on May 15, 2011 at 1:44 PM · Report this
i'm pro-science and i vote 160
I don't side with this writer. Or anyone who represents vegans poorly, such as PETA. BUT Stranger writers and, it seems, a lot of Stranger readers/ comment folks here, seem to have an irrational disgust with vegan-anything (judging from past Stranger articles/commentary in years past as well).
I'm in conservative-mainstream Spokane and whenever folks here find out I'm on a vegan diet they simply seem to think huh, well that's different, ok. I don't sense any instant disrespect as I have had with some in Seattle when I lived there recently. Soooo what is with you Seattle assholes anyway?

It's like deciding that anybody who avoids beans, or rice, or soy, or coffee deserves to be bashed. Other analogies, to help any idiot vegan bashers out there: It's about as dumb as bashing people for NOT liking country music, or for NOT voting for Obama, or for NOT going to the gym, or for NOT drinking alcohol. Are you people just insecure or something? Veganism is only becoming more mainstream, despite all the shit talk, so you might as well get over it.
Either that or you might as well find more demographics of people to bash for NOT living as you do. Heck, if we just all do this eventually we can all end up hating each other!! Totally by choice, with no intellect or reasoning whatsoever!!
Posted by i'm pro-science and i vote on May 15, 2011 at 2:38 PM · Report this
The letter writer believes homosexuality and left-handedness are a choice and that non-whites have 'extra melanin' rather than precisely how much melanin their bodies need. So we have a homophobic white supremacist vegan on our hands demanding an apology for her/his 'rights' to a vegan lifestyle being violated by society and in a sex advice column?

Whatever. I have a right to Kraft brand Macaroni And Cheese because it's the cheesiest. Do not violate my rights to same or unwittingly suggest we go to a restaurant without it on the menu, or you're a Nazi hypocrite bully douchetard or whatever. Cause I got my panties in a twist and I say so. I'm so oppressed; poor me. I hate everyone. Thank you.
Posted by Babydaddy on May 15, 2011 at 6:14 PM · Report this
I went to a Christian Camp where I learned all about how I could tame my "vegan" side and be holy. Truth is, you're born a vegan, die a vegan. Gay's MAKE that choice.
Posted by anal smith on May 15, 2011 at 8:51 PM · Report this
Oh and handedness is arbitrary.
Posted by anal smith on May 15, 2011 at 8:52 PM · Report this
I just want to say that I have been vegan for close to 20 years.

It's just a dietary choice that makes sense to me, both morally and in terms of health.

I have no comment on the original letter. You guys seem to have said most of what I was thinking. :-)

Just wanted to post because A) I am a vegan, without being a preachy pain in the ass, and wanted to say so


B) The fact that I share a diet with the asshat who wrote this letter does not mean that we have anything else in common, and I also wanted to say that.

Peace and love,

PS- I just told the barstool joke to a close friend (gay AND vegan) and then showed him the letter. He thinks the joke is hysterical, and the letter writer is a shitstain.
Posted by Docme on May 16, 2011 at 7:41 AM · Report this
There's no law stipulating that vegans should, in any way, have their rights infringed, whether legal, political, marital, financial, or personal.

Vegans find themselves on the wrong side of every food-related argument; while gays would be very unlikely to promote homosexuality to straight people (for what would be the point?), certain varieties of vegan take it upon themselves to tell others what they should be eating. The reason people dislike vegans is the very same reason people dislike fundamentalists. How can we not expect people to behave defensively when their legal lifestyle is being compared with murder?
Posted by Central Scrutinizer on May 16, 2011 at 7:45 AM · Report this
@165 "certain varieties of vegan take it upon themselves to tell others what they should be eating. " In my experience, the opposite is much more likely to happen. Not that, in a perfect world, we wouldn't dream that anybody would stop eating animals, but we (at least the rational among us) know that it is useless to try to convert other (vegetarianism almost always come from personal reflexion for what I could see) and, living in a society were meat is everywhere and is the norm, it would just alienate us from our friends and family.

"their legal lifestyle" so what, legal = good? Ecologist also tells you that your life style is endangering the planet, does that make them like fundamentalists?
Posted by Kyrie on May 16, 2011 at 8:41 AM · Report this
auntie jim 167
I'm gay, a vegan, and not amused.
Posted by auntie jim on May 16, 2011 at 10:26 AM · Report this
@166 Political groups with much mass-media attention drive a vegan agenda. I'm sure I don't have to list them. Really, go fuck yourself. So you say you wouldn't, so you imply the issue doesn't exist at all. We wouldn't be having this discussion if certain animal-rights groups hadn't committed murder in the name of this ridiculous cause.

For the same reason that moderate Muslims will obfuscate the perils of their religion driven by fundamentalists, so will moderate vegans obfuscate the same, protecting the fundamentalists with intent merely not to reveal the truth of their insane creed.

Away going, worship your crazy mud-god. But, please first, smear yourself in mud, that we might identify you as a loony from the start.
Posted by Central Scrutinizer on May 16, 2011 at 5:51 PM · Report this
Just because you realize it's useless to try to convert meat eaters to veganism doesn't mean you don't consider them murderers, 166. For example I am convinced that pedophilia can't be cured, but that doesn't mean I'm OK with child rape. Just by being a vegan you're antagonizing meat eaters - you don't have to preach veganism to them, even if you don't say a word it's obvious that you're judging them.

Posted by tiare on May 16, 2011 at 6:53 PM · Report this
@168/169...Why so rude? Just because I live my life the way I am most comfortable I am antagonizing carnivores? And said carnivores don't have enough self-control (must be blood-lust?) to be polite and respectful? Is the consumption of a vegetable a radical-political act that shakes y'all to the very core? Hide yr. children!! Sounds much more like the carnivores in this thread are being judgmental, if we ignore the (obviously) crazy LW.
Posted by pooponyrtoes on May 16, 2011 at 7:38 PM · Report this
@168: May I know why you started to insult me? I really can't see anything in what I wrote that could offend you or was less than civilized. Why the hate?
A vegan agenda... How funny, this reminds me of something else. Oh yeah, I know, the big scary gay agenda! Sure, we all belong to a church, a very powerful, rich and influential one (we are sooo many) and we are coming for your ham. Hide yourself. Since I don't live in the same country (or the same continent for that matter) I don't know what are the group you're referring to. Not that I care. "Certain animal-rights groups hadn't committed murder" So? People I never met, whom I'm in any way affiliated to committed murder for ideas that looks likes mine. I guess I'm guilty. By the way, I tend to enjoy my properties, am I responsible for anybody who kills a thief? I like peace as well, does that mean I am responsible for all the people that declare war in the name of peace? Am I responsible as well for those who kill in the name of love and passion, because i feel that too?
I don't protect anybody, I don't belong to any group. There are crazy Muslims, crazy Christians, crazy vegans. There are also crazy atheists, crazy Americans.
I don't have any God, any sacred book, any guru. I happen to give intrinsic value to life, and in your twisted, sad logic it makes me an insane fundamentalist. Please keep your insults to yourself.
Posted by Kyrie on May 16, 2011 at 7:57 PM · Report this
@169: I don't believe you're a murderer. And I do hope that meat consumption will decrease over time, though I wouldn't even dream to die in a society with a majority of vegans. I don't believe omnivorous are murderer, (or I wouldn't have any friend) in the same that I don't consider that all the people who had slave, in say, antic Greek, was a completely inhuman. It is more a kind of blindness to suffering. Veganism is an idea that progress so slowly because no human's rights is directly at stake. If we compare to gays, since that was one of the initial debate, how many people would still not care about gays if none of the following had happen to them: they were gay, their kid was gay, one of their friend/family was gay? It's so difficult to make people care.
And I know too well how difficult it is to change your way of thinking and your way of life to include yet another group among what deserve to live, and to live free from cruelty (intended or not). I know it because I've been omnivorous for more than 20 years and still now I am not vegan but vegetarian. And I also know my occidental way of life partly depend on the exploitation of poor people, of the stealing of natural resources to weaker countries and harm the planet in a way that affect all those who live on it.
So you see, being a vegetarian doesn't mean I scream MURDER! in my head every day I sit for lunch. It just mean that I try to do my best not to participate in actions that, I perceive, hurt others (and not just animals. Meat industry is an ecological disaster)
Posted by Kyrie on May 16, 2011 at 8:00 PM · Report this

I'm a vegan and I DO judge people for using animal products, but I am also too diplomatic to say so unless directly confronted. I care about animal rights and veganism is a compelling lifestyle choice for me. I think eating animals is wrong, period, but I have to work my way up to actually saying that in a conversation or else I get people freaking out that I'm soooo preachy.

I'm also a lesbian and come from an Appalachian coal town with dire poverty. No other vegan I know in person is anything but white and upper middle class. I'm acutely aware of intersectionality and privilege (perhaps I even sound like a working class academic now) and I really try to frame veganism in terms of systems of oppression at first. Vegans have said extremely classist and offensive shit about hunters, and I won't put up with that when I grew up eating hunted meat for literally lack of anything else sometimes. If we're going to be judgmental, it needs to be directed toward those who have much more control over their environments (I'm looking at localvores with their "cage free" eggs and veal who are even more classist and annoying).
Posted by carlsagan on May 16, 2011 at 8:59 PM · Report this
@ 172, you're right, I forgot about that possibility - rather than keeping meat eaters responsible for their actions, you will let them off the hook because they don't know any better. Frankly I don't know which is more insulting to meat eaters, but I'm guessing it's the paternalistic latter attitude.

Sure, maybe some people, probably children, aren't aware of the reality of meat industry, but I really want to believe that most adults aren't so freakin' clueless. Yes, most meat eaters know that animals are killed and they suffer and they would obviously be happier if they played in the sun bathed meadows for the rest of their lives until they die of old age - they just don't care.

Believing that everyone is so empathetic that they would become vegan the moment they learned about the reality of meat industry and/or reality about animals' mental capacity probably makes your life easier, but the harsh depressing truth is that you're fooling yourself.

@ 173, agreed with everything you said there.
Posted by tiare on May 17, 2011 at 7:48 AM · Report this
@174: I'm not as naive as you think. But I do notice that a huge majority of people I talked to are horrified by the subject of how their meal came in their plate, especially the part where the animal get its throat cut. Without entering with any detail, you can see that people (except those who have been used to watching it) become completely uncomfortable.
A lot of people likes animals. Sure, they care more about the cute ones or those who looks like humans. But they care, more and more. Have you seen the reaction to the football player who kicked an owl during a match. It was a public example of animal cruelty, and it made a lot of people, not just vegans, react. If you don't believe me, go down the street and, I don't know, stab a cat in front of people. See if nobody care. But people are ready to pretend they don't know that way worse is happening every day for their pleasure, as long as they don't have to watch it.
It use to be normal to go on public places to watch a man get its head cut off, people would cheer. Today, not so much. Sensibilities evolve.

Are you as much aggressive with every person you have an ideological disagreement with? You really must hate environmentalists. And everybody that doesn't vote like you.
Posted by Kyrie on May 17, 2011 at 9:52 AM · Report this
"Are you as much aggressive with every person you have an ideological disagreement with?"

Depends on the disagreement, if they're violating someone's rights then I am.

I know that most people (who are not sociopaths) prefer humane conditions for raising livestock and humane ways of killing animals. And many are against fur trade, too. And killing / kicking animals just for the sake of killing / kicking is considered obviously wrong. This all means that they care about animals - just as long as there is meat on their plate. Pamper the cows, keep them in best stables, feed them the best food, kill them so painlessly they don't even notice - and you will get support from virtually every meat eater. But don't u dare suggest we don't kill them, because that means that majority of humans have to give up some pleasures in life (for some, even a major pleasure), and that won't happen.

Gays would have never won any rights if heterosexuals had had to sacrifice some of their rights. Because Majority won't sacrifice. You can either make it sacrifice from above (Russian Tzar's abolition of slavery, abolition of slavery in the US) or the oppressed classes can rebel and win (the French revolution, and subsequent revolutions in the European countries). Since the latter is not possible with animals, the former remains the only way - enlightened dictators can force veganism on entire countries. Which, while possible in theory, is highly improbable.
Posted by tiare on May 17, 2011 at 10:54 AM · Report this
"if they're violating someone's rights then I am." I am not. No vegan is. Nobody here or anywhere (except lunatics) has suggested we should take the power and force veganism on everybody. And when you see the number of vegans in western societies, the idea is rather laughable.
But you say that the abolition of slavery in the US was an act of dictatorship?

My turn to call you naive. The condition in which livestock is raised is not only far from what you describe, but it certainly isn't getting closer, as the demand for meat augment. But you are right to say that it would be an argument if it was true, since people often make uninformed claim on the well being of animals, and I can only guess it is to give oneself a clear conscience.
And even the law agree. It is forbidden to torture animals. It is forbidden to rape them. But it is allowed to kill them. Which is kind of ironic when you think that it has often been observed that animals, like humans, are capable of inflicting themselves a great deal of pain in order to save their lives.
They prefer the pain over death. We (pretend to) offer them the opposite.
Posted by Kyrie on May 17, 2011 at 11:56 AM · Report this
Being vegan does not make you part of a protected class. Sorry, princess.
Posted by suddenlyorcas on May 17, 2011 at 12:16 PM · Report this
That's correct, we do. Because we're thinking in terms of human well being, not animal well being. We don't allow torturing animals for the sake of torturing them because we want people to be empathetic so they don't begin to torture humans. That's also why we encourage children to love animals and treat them well. On the other hand, we allow killing animals for food because there's no reasonable doubt that killing animals for food would lead to killing humans for food.

So because we groom empathy in people virtually everyone would prefer to eat animals that were well cared for rather than animals that were tortured - as long as they can afford it of course. If buying meat from well cared for animals is so expensive they would have to give up some other pleasures in life, the care stops there. Because we don't sacrifice. Unless the law makes us.

And you're right, I am saying that slavery in the US wasn't abolished through democratic process - the abolition was forced on the Southern states when they lost the war.
Posted by tiare on May 17, 2011 at 12:27 PM · Report this
"does not make you part of a protected class" Not one of our claim. No need for it. Personally, all I would ask for the short term would be correct meals in cafeterias and a little more tolerance. I know, crazy.

Animal and human well-being are not two mutually exclusive things.
The love for animals isn't perfect to bring brotherly love for all humans as testify all the lunatics who love their dog more than humans and train them to attack all trespassers. But I guess there is some truth in what you say: we raise kids by telling them it's bad to hurt animals, but ok to do whatever you want to them in slaughterhouses. And you end up mostly with kids that wouldn't hurt their neighbor but couldn't care less if their i-whatever, their branded clothes or shoes,... are made by underage, underpaid, exploited people in china. I guess there is some mimicry.

But I don't see how you draw this weird line. If you torture animals, you might torture other humans but if you do worst with the intent of selling their skin, their flesh or to test the last shampoo, there is no risk? You got me confused.

But even if you may be partly right about the social use of pets, there is more to it. If I go out and shoot my neighbor's dog (not that I have a gun), I can assure you that the first thought he'll have won't be "she could do the same to me" but rather something like "the mf killed my Médor" and he'll be sad. And angry. Because he cared for him, and not just as an educational tool or a property.
Posted by Kyrie on May 17, 2011 at 2:23 PM · Report this
davidlev 181
As a left-handed person, I'm mildly offended by this dude. Sure, being a southpaw isn't a horrible burden, but we do live in a right-handed world designed for right-handed people
Posted by davidlev on May 23, 2011 at 8:52 AM · Report this
I'd like to apologise on the behalf of vegans and vegetarians who aren't like this guy (which I do hope is most of us).
I do want to point out though that I found vegetarian food tasty long before I decided to become vegetarian, so I'm not sure where the bland stereotype comes from.
Posted by Avistew on May 23, 2011 at 3:51 PM · Report this
"One day, just as lefthanders are no longer maligned, "

Um, excuse me but when the fuck did that day pass? Did I miss the memo?
I still cannot get notebooks that have the rings on the right side so they don't eat up my left wrist when I write. I cannot even get a left handed desk to use at my University. Every doorknob and water faucet handle is either on the wrong side or turns the wrong way.

You wanna see how great and easy it is to be left-handed in our faux-accommodating world?
I dare you to not use your right hand for a week and see if it doesn't drive you crazy being surrounded by everyday items you have to struggle to use.
Posted by ramv36 on September 21, 2011 at 8:28 PM · Report this
"One day, just as lefthanders are no longer maligned, "

Um, excuse me but when the fuck did that day pass? Did I miss the memo?
I still cannot get notebooks that have the rings on the right side so they don't eat up my left wrist when I write. I cannot even get a left handed desk to use at my University. Every doorknob and water faucet handle is either on the wrong side or turns the wrong way.

You wanna see how great and easy it is to be left-handed in our faux-accommodating world?
I dare you to not use your right hand for a week and see if it doesn't drive you crazy being surrounded by everyday items you have to struggle to use.
Posted by ramv36 on September 21, 2011 at 8:34 PM · Report this

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