Slog
News & ArtsTuesday, September 13, 2011
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: Bait and Switch
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 4:09 PM
Slightly over a year ago I started dating a girl who confessed her unwavering open-mindedness; literally every sexual thought and act was cool with her. I, in turn, told her that I was bisexual and was attracted to her open-mindedness—especially as it related to the potential of bringing another guy, girl (she's bi-curious and loves lesbian porn), or bi couple into the mix at some point. She told me she had had an MMF encounter in the past and enjoyed herself, but it was in the context of a "fucked up" relationship in which her ex-boyfriend caused her a lot of PTSD (the particulars of which I won't get into). At the time we had this discussion, we were just beginning to be exclusive, and she stated that she'd be open to having a guy, girl, or couple enter our bedroom at some point. I pursued a long-term relationship with her because I felt that she a) understood me and b) had similar fantasies/thoughts.
Lo and behold, a year later, my girlfriend is no longer so sure that she is eager to share me—with anyone. She says she likes the idea of a threesome, but she's not ready for it nor can she guarantee she'll ever be amenable to the idea again. She has concluded that any future threesome experiences would be as traumatizing as her previous experiences, which took place in the context of a bad relationship. These were sexual encounters that she did not initiate but in which she partook. My girlfriend feels that I am essentially doing the same thing that her ex did—trying to initiate a threesome for her instead of allowing her to instigate. I told her that she's unfairly associating her past, traumatic experiences and projecting them onto our quite normal, happy relationship. Moreover, I told her that I wouldn't want to have a threesome unless she was into it, and I wouldn't get any satisfaction from it knowing that I was "forcing" her into going through with it.
Regardless, it's frustrating because she had been so open to the idea at the onset of our relationship. I feel like I was baited with statements that lured me into a long-term relationship with her (I do love her but also want to be with someone who is open sexually open-minded), and now the switch has taken place: She is only interested in one-on-one sex, most likely forever. I find myself chatting up couples or singles on CL but I would never go through with meeting anyone because I would be betraying her trust. I've even thought about being friendly with a bi guy and just having him come over to hang out with us so that over time, maybe things would spontaneously happen. However, she's not stupid, and she'd pick up on the rouse.
What's a bi guy to do?
Brazil Nut From D.C.
My response after the jump...
················
I'm going to have to be quick here—there's this thing that I gotta go do—so I'm gonna invite Sloggers, normally so shy about sharing their perspectives with SLLOTDers, to weigh in and improve upon my quickly dashed off advice for BNFDC.
What's a bi guy to do? In my opinion a bi guy—you—ought to breakup with his girlfriend and breakup with her ASAP. You're already trawling the Internet looking for other bi guys and couples to play with, BNFDC, which is a bad sign/good indication that you're halfway out the door. Better a clean-if-painful breakup now than a messy-and-painful breakup/blowup once your girlfriend stumbles over the evidence of your online flirtations. Which she will.
But if you want avoid/delay the inevitable breakup/blowup, BNFDC, you could try this: Calmly explain to your girlfriend that you understand her reluctance to have a threesome, due to those highly negative/convenient experiences in her past, but one of the big reasons you pursued a relationship with her was because she indicated at the start that being with her would not prevent you from ever again expressing this man-on-man aspects of your sexuality. Tell her you're not asking her to do anything she doesn't want to do—no threeways—but you're going to express this aspect of your sexuality with or without her.
Good luck.
2
Bait and switch indeed. The breakup is inevitable. BNFDC might as well walk out now. Girlfriend has no intention of honoring her earlier statements.
4
She sounds like she just wanted to be in a relationship with you, and straight up lied. Ask her bluntly if she ever meant any of those things. Ask her if she's willing now to stick to her words.
If not DTMFA.
Life's too short
If not DTMFA.
Life's too short
5
I hate how the whole bait and switch always has such malevolent connotations. Like she totally just lied to you this whole time on purpose so she could rope you into a LTR. Not that people don't do that sometimes but I really think that a lot of times circumstances change and so do your feeling on things. I'm envisioning that maybe she developed deeper feelings for you and it didn't include coming home to some dude you picked up on the casual encounters on CL. NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT; JUST SAYIN'.
The only person YOU can control is YOU. So do both you and her a favor and dump her and move on.
The only person YOU can control is YOU. So do both you and her a favor and dump her and move on.
6
If an open relationship was not important, BNFDC would not have discussed it right up front. There are many women out there who would consider a bi guy a real bonus. Most guys only want 3 ways with two women. He gives his partner the flexibility of having a male or female in a 3 way, or bringing in a couple to play with.
Seriously, he needs to DTMFA, and find someone who has similar sexual interests and values.
Seriously, he needs to DTMFA, and find someone who has similar sexual interests and values.
7
"I feel like I was baited with statements that lured me into a long-term relationship ..."
Let that be a lesson.
Let that be a lesson.
8
Maybe she just needs to be eased slowly into having another partner in the bedroom. EricaP usually has great advice for easing into open-relationships...
9
Here's the thing about being sexually open-minded: You have to be as okay with merry go-round sex as you are with the triple loop roller-coaster sex.
You two should should break up. You allowed yourself to see something that might not have been there in the first place and she might have been looking for an actual relationship free of the chaos she's used to.
Break up. There's nothing either of you offer the other for the future.
You two should should break up. You allowed yourself to see something that might not have been there in the first place and she might have been looking for an actual relationship free of the chaos she's used to.
Break up. There's nothing either of you offer the other for the future.
10
"My girlfriend feels that I am essentially doing the same thing that her ex did—trying to initiate a threesome for her instead of allowing her to instigate"
Sounds like she's more into the idea as fantasy. Ignore the "who confessed her unwavering open-mindedness; literally every sexual thought and act was cool with her", because it obviously isn't. She may have misrepresented her enthusiasm due to past trauma, but whatever the reason, time will not necessarily heal these wounds.
Sounds like she's more into the idea as fantasy. Ignore the "who confessed her unwavering open-mindedness; literally every sexual thought and act was cool with her", because it obviously isn't. She may have misrepresented her enthusiasm due to past trauma, but whatever the reason, time will not necessarily heal these wounds.
11
It doesn't sound like to me she lied to him to get him into the relationship. It sounds like she misjudged her ability to handle three-ways because of that past relationship. Really, fundamentally, she's one of those people who thinks they'd be all fine for an open relationship but turns out to be wrong when they realize they can't actually handle it. I see no reason to assume any malice on her part but these two either need to break up or negotiate something, and honestly I'm guessing the former would be best. I'm not sure there's strictly an MF to DT__A in this scenario.
12
"Bait and switch" may be too harsh an accusation. She may very well have sincerely meant it a year ago, and has simply changed her mind since then. You say yourself that she feels some trauma over a past 3-way experience. On reflection over time, maybe she's just decided that isn't her thing anymore.
Placing blame isn't really important. Whether she tricked you or simply had an honest change of heart, the fact is that she is not currently interested in the kind of relationship you want.
Time to move on. You don't have to be an ass about it. Just say "this is the kind of relationship I want. If you're not interested, I need to find it elsewhere."
Placing blame isn't really important. Whether she tricked you or simply had an honest change of heart, the fact is that she is not currently interested in the kind of relationship you want.
Time to move on. You don't have to be an ass about it. Just say "this is the kind of relationship I want. If you're not interested, I need to find it elsewhere."
13
What? A woman indicated openness to sexual experimentation at the beginning of a relationship, only to change her mind once you'd stuck around for a while? That NEVER happens!
14
#5: Exactly. It's an unfortunate situation, but the whole implication of dishonesty or some kind of "trap" is really childish. People change. People say things in one context and then realize it doesn't sound good in another.
Yes, dump her, as gracefully as possible. But don't accuse her of being some kind of manipulative liar who tried to trick you. She just didn't really know what she wanted. If that's a crime, plenty of us are guilty.
Yes, dump her, as gracefully as possible. But don't accuse her of being some kind of manipulative liar who tried to trick you. She just didn't really know what she wanted. If that's a crime, plenty of us are guilty.
15
Presenting her with the ultimatum in the form of "it's put up or shut up time, let's do this thing now or get out" doesn't necessarily seem like a good idea. She obviously likes him a lot and will probably capitulate to the ultimatum regardless of whether or not she's into it.
I'd suggest having the talk & letting her know that it's a relatively serious, pressing issue, then drop it for a month or two. If she's not come around and at least shown SOMEthing by way of interest/action come Halloween be gone & don't look back.
I'd suggest having the talk & letting her know that it's a relatively serious, pressing issue, then drop it for a month or two. If she's not come around and at least shown SOMEthing by way of interest/action come Halloween be gone & don't look back.
16
Break up.
You didn't say how old you and she were, BNFDC. If she's relatively young, this may not be an intentional bait-and-switch. Our theoretical ideas of what we want in a relationship may change once we have the relevant relationship experience. For instance, BNFDC might have historically favored open relationships when she didn't give a crap about the relationship, but discovered she feels differently when she wants the relationship to endure.
Not saying that you shouldn't break up, just that she didn't necessarily trick you. You both thought you were compatible, and determined later that you weren't. That's how most relationships end.
You didn't say how old you and she were, BNFDC. If she's relatively young, this may not be an intentional bait-and-switch. Our theoretical ideas of what we want in a relationship may change once we have the relevant relationship experience. For instance, BNFDC might have historically favored open relationships when she didn't give a crap about the relationship, but discovered she feels differently when she wants the relationship to endure.
Not saying that you shouldn't break up, just that she didn't necessarily trick you. You both thought you were compatible, and determined later that you weren't. That's how most relationships end.
17
"doesn't sound like to me she lied to him to get him into the relationship. It sounds like she misjudged her ability to handle three-ways because of that past relationship"
I agree. She may have thought it would have been ok to try again with the "right person", but the LW may not be the "right person" after all, she may not be secure in the relationship now or ever. We also don't know any of the context surrounding his approach, which does sound curious.
I agree. She may have thought it would have been ok to try again with the "right person", but the LW may not be the "right person" after all, she may not be secure in the relationship now or ever. We also don't know any of the context surrounding his approach, which does sound curious.
20
Good advice, Dan, and nice improvement upon it @15.
With matters of substance out of the way, I just have to mention that i was impressed that somebody finally spelled "lo and behold" correctly (i.e., not "low")--but the feeling was as short-lived as it took me to get to the phrase "she'd pick up on the rouse [sic]". I'm not aroused by misspelling the word "ruse".
With love,
Internet Spelling Nazi #655321.
With matters of substance out of the way, I just have to mention that i was impressed that somebody finally spelled "lo and behold" correctly (i.e., not "low")--but the feeling was as short-lived as it took me to get to the phrase "she'd pick up on the rouse [sic]". I'm not aroused by misspelling the word "ruse".
With love,
Internet Spelling Nazi #655321.
21
The letter writer's problems bore me.
Dump her, move on. Resent her if it makes you feel better about it, but there's every chance that she wasn't trying to trick you and simply doesn't know herself as much as she thought she did. She'll be better off without you, and you without her.
Dump her, move on. Resent her if it makes you feel better about it, but there's every chance that she wasn't trying to trick you and simply doesn't know herself as much as she thought she did. She'll be better off without you, and you without her.
22
A friend of mine was dating a woman who told him her favorite thing to do was shoot pool and drink beer...which just happened to be his favorite thing to do. How lucky! So they got married and that was the last time they went out to shoot pool and drink beer. True story.
23
I would say sit down and have a talk with her. Mention that is something that you feel you need to express on some level.
Maybe suggest a three way make out type scenario with ONLY kissing/ fondling over clothes, no pressure for more. If that goes well a few times and she is into it she might suggest going farther. Talk with her about it after the make out session(s) and see how she feels, again WITHOUT PRESSURE. You should be able to get a feel if she is moving in the eventual threesome sex direction or not.
Side point: I hate when people say they are up for ANYTHING sexually, to me that just shows a lack of imagination and/or clear lack of knowledge of what people can be into.
Maybe suggest a three way make out type scenario with ONLY kissing/ fondling over clothes, no pressure for more. If that goes well a few times and she is into it she might suggest going farther. Talk with her about it after the make out session(s) and see how she feels, again WITHOUT PRESSURE. You should be able to get a feel if she is moving in the eventual threesome sex direction or not.
Side point: I hate when people say they are up for ANYTHING sexually, to me that just shows a lack of imagination and/or clear lack of knowledge of what people can be into.
24
If she's still traumatized by her past experiences, maybe she should work through it in therapy. Not that therapy always works.
25
22, it is the old joke about being at the wedding reception, and hearing the groom glowingly talk about how great it is going to be getting blowjobs every night from now on.
While the bride is enthusing to her friends in the next group about how she doesn't have to give blowjobs anymore, now that she is married.
While the bride is enthusing to her friends in the next group about how she doesn't have to give blowjobs anymore, now that she is married.
26
Yes, it is definitely possible that she meant it when she said it. What is also possible is that she, like a lot of other women, are cool with the idea of kinky or multi-partner sex when the guy isn't Their Guy. Later, when they have been in a long while and deeply love their LTR they become progressively less amenable to sharing. It's one thing to agree to a threesome when the guy could be gone in a few months, their hearts tell them, but it's another -- and unacceptable -- thing when he is Special And Worth Keeping. Then the whole "but I HATE the idea of someone else touching him" kicks in.
LTRs are fantastic. Whatever the average Jane in the street's openness to multipartner sex may be at the beginning of the relationship we have to concede that any such willingness goes steadily down as her devotion to the man goes up. Not a welcome fact, necessarily, but true.
LTRs are fantastic. Whatever the average Jane in the street's openness to multipartner sex may be at the beginning of the relationship we have to concede that any such willingness goes steadily down as her devotion to the man goes up. Not a welcome fact, necessarily, but true.
27
I say just let her go. Be nice and sincere and regretful.
But I see warning signs that if you give her the ultimatum, you become the bad guy, the pressurer, the bad new incarnation of her bad old ex taking her to places she doesn't want to go.
But I see warning signs that if you give her the ultimatum, you become the bad guy, the pressurer, the bad new incarnation of her bad old ex taking her to places she doesn't want to go.
28
@26
" LTRs are fantastic. Whatever the average Jane in the street's openness to multipartner sex may be at the beginning of the relationship we have to concede that any such willingness goes steadily down as her devotion to the man goes up. Not a welcome fact, necessarily, but true."
I disagree.
Some women feel more comfortable sexually when they have the commitment of a LTR. That can be in regards to kinks, additional partners or just being more open/giving generally.
" LTRs are fantastic. Whatever the average Jane in the street's openness to multipartner sex may be at the beginning of the relationship we have to concede that any such willingness goes steadily down as her devotion to the man goes up. Not a welcome fact, necessarily, but true."
I disagree.
Some women feel more comfortable sexually when they have the commitment of a LTR. That can be in regards to kinks, additional partners or just being more open/giving generally.
29
This is a good reason for dating before marriage - to figure this stuff out before children and real estate are involved. I just want to take a moment to enjoy the fact that these two people can go their separate ways without harming any innocent third parties.
That said, I have to live up to the kind words @8, so I'll suggest that if the LW otherwise thinks his girlfriend is the bee's knees, he could try some baby steps... going to a strip club together, talking in bed about some hot celebrity and what the two of you could do to that person, watching decent threeway porn together, sharing a glance when you see sexy people across the room or walking down the street... If she is open to that kind of imagined threesome, it may be worth investing another year to see if she can then move from those baby steps to actual live people. But no talk of marriage until you figure out if she's honestly turned out by at least some of the same stuff that excites you.
That said, I have to live up to the kind words @8, so I'll suggest that if the LW otherwise thinks his girlfriend is the bee's knees, he could try some baby steps... going to a strip club together, talking in bed about some hot celebrity and what the two of you could do to that person, watching decent threeway porn together, sharing a glance when you see sexy people across the room or walking down the street... If she is open to that kind of imagined threesome, it may be worth investing another year to see if she can then move from those baby steps to actual live people. But no talk of marriage until you figure out if she's honestly turned out by at least some of the same stuff that excites you.
30
He should break up with her. They want different things and they want them equally. However he should realize that people (not just women) often are more sexually open before they become emotionally invested. People are more willing to share what isn't that important to them. Maybe next time some chick says "I'll do anything, fuck anything, say yes to anything no matter how depraved," he shouldn't just say "Okay." Maybe he should say, "Great. Because our future together depends on that fact never changing at all."
32
nartweag @28: You and I may not be in disagreement. You speak of "some" and I speak of "the average", i.e. "typical". "Some" girls aren't "average" or "typical". My point stands.
33
Motivation is often impossible to ascertain. Perhaps 22 is correct and she was cynically telling the LW what he wanted to hear and never intended to follow-through. Or perhaps her feelings have genuinely changed. Or perhaps she genuinely found three-way and four-way fantasies exciting, but the real-world prospect is too threatening now that she is emotionally invested.
It doesn't matter--as others have noted, they are probably incompatible. If he wants to invest a few more months he can try Erica's baby-step suggestions, but if he wants out he has the okay he was looking for.
It doesn't matter--as others have noted, they are probably incompatible. If he wants to invest a few more months he can try Erica's baby-step suggestions, but if he wants out he has the okay he was looking for.
34
Hold it, just wait a minute, come on now. This letter--and relationship--started with this: "Slightly over a year ago I started dating a girl who confessed her unwavering open-mindedness; literally every sexual thought and act was cool with her."
No. Just, no. Stop. Anyone who says this is either lying or has extremely poor boundaries and no sense of self. Nartweag says that flags someone with no imagination. This may be true for some, but this woman has already been in at least one relationship described as 'fucked up' and involved a three-way--doesn't apply to her. This was a red flag from jump street and you missed it. Leave as gracefully as you can, but leave.
No. Just, no. Stop. Anyone who says this is either lying or has extremely poor boundaries and no sense of self. Nartweag says that flags someone with no imagination. This may be true for some, but this woman has already been in at least one relationship described as 'fucked up' and involved a three-way--doesn't apply to her. This was a red flag from jump street and you missed it. Leave as gracefully as you can, but leave.
36
@35: I thought he was referring to his erection!
I've even thought about being friendly with a bi guy and just having him come over to hang out with us so that over time, maybe things would spontaneously happen. However, she's not stupid, and she'd pick up on the rouse.
37
LW needs to give up on the threesomes or give up this girl.
Maybe, just maybe, he can have both. But it won't happen via baby steps or being soft, it will only happen if LW makes a strong and proud statement about who he is, sexually speaking, and let's her know that he if she can't accept and join him, he'll continue his search for a woman who will.
Maybe, just maybe, he can have both. But it won't happen via baby steps or being soft, it will only happen if LW makes a strong and proud statement about who he is, sexually speaking, and let's her know that he if she can't accept and join him, he'll continue his search for a woman who will.
38
"up for anything" + "PTSD"? There is no universe where these two things go together. Unless that's a massive exaggeration, this is something that reflects badly on the LW for not picking up on.
39
6/SeattleKim: There are many women out there who would consider a bi guy a real bonus. Most guys only want 3 ways with two women.
My thoughts as well. I wonder, though, if the percentage of women interested in a bi guy would be as great as the percentage of men into a bi woman? I could be wrong but my impression is that far more women than men are skeeved out or threatened by the idea of their partner being intimate with someone of the same sex.
My thoughts as well. I wonder, though, if the percentage of women interested in a bi guy would be as great as the percentage of men into a bi woman? I could be wrong but my impression is that far more women than men are skeeved out or threatened by the idea of their partner being intimate with someone of the same sex.
40
@11. There it is. There's no malice here. Just be nice, pack your shit, and move on and don't be an asshole about it. How old are you - 25?
I think it is admirable that your bi-sexual nature was *always* on the table and the subject was *never* permitted to get shoved to the side. But hey, people change. I've been with the same guy for 28 years and we average getting it on about twice a YEAR. That's a whopping change and it was his change, not mine. But we kept the subject of sex ON THE TABLE and that's why our relationship is still healthy. I'm now responsible for my own orgasm and I'm free to get it done any way I please. I'm not tossing my guy aside just because of the sex thing because he's a whole lot MORE than what he used to do in the sack. For me, it's about ALL he is, not just his dick, so that makes him a keeper. It might not for you. I mean, would you reject a Pulitzer Prize winner because they decide to take up chain-smoking cigarettes when you hate that? I wouldn't because people are *many* things all at once. Sexual compatibility is important but it's just one thing that helps seal the deal. If your partner's change of mind is a deal breaker, I don't get it. She's more than a snatch with (at least) a nice dirty mind.
I think it is admirable that your bi-sexual nature was *always* on the table and the subject was *never* permitted to get shoved to the side. But hey, people change. I've been with the same guy for 28 years and we average getting it on about twice a YEAR. That's a whopping change and it was his change, not mine. But we kept the subject of sex ON THE TABLE and that's why our relationship is still healthy. I'm now responsible for my own orgasm and I'm free to get it done any way I please. I'm not tossing my guy aside just because of the sex thing because he's a whole lot MORE than what he used to do in the sack. For me, it's about ALL he is, not just his dick, so that makes him a keeper. It might not for you. I mean, would you reject a Pulitzer Prize winner because they decide to take up chain-smoking cigarettes when you hate that? I wouldn't because people are *many* things all at once. Sexual compatibility is important but it's just one thing that helps seal the deal. If your partner's change of mind is a deal breaker, I don't get it. She's more than a snatch with (at least) a nice dirty mind.
41
I agree with Dan, and like @5 I don't care for the "bait and switch" term. I doubt most people would set out deliberately to lie about something like that at the beginning (what makes LW sooooooo special that a girl wouldn't dump him on the spot when first finding out what his preferences are?). People change, or learn more about themselves and so on. Accept it and move on, and forget about considering it bait and switch... sheesh.
42
Seems like reasonable advice. It doesn't assume either party is in the wrong.
I personally think that attempting to close options later in the relationship is just like trying to open them: it has to be requested, not demanded. You can't just assume that the other person will meet your needs at every step.
That said, the "I'm cool with anything" approach was a red flag for me. Would she have been cool with feces? I doubt it. How about BDSM or watersports? She might have done those but certainly not during for majority of her sexual encounters.
Being hypothetically okay with everything isn't the same as wanting to do everything, and people who don't see the need to clarify that usually aren't as wild as they like to think they are.
I personally think that attempting to close options later in the relationship is just like trying to open them: it has to be requested, not demanded. You can't just assume that the other person will meet your needs at every step.
That said, the "I'm cool with anything" approach was a red flag for me. Would she have been cool with feces? I doubt it. How about BDSM or watersports? She might have done those but certainly not during for majority of her sexual encounters.
Being hypothetically okay with everything isn't the same as wanting to do everything, and people who don't see the need to clarify that usually aren't as wild as they like to think they are.
43
So, you told her upfront that you wanted to pursue your bi urges by bringing another guy into the bedroom, and she told you upfront that she had a bad experience with such a situation in the past.
But you didn't listen to that part of what she told you, you only listened to the 'unwavering open-mindedness' part. You ignored the dissonance of her early 'I would do anything for love, but I won't do that' message and decided to wait it out for a year in case her actions changed to match what you chose to believe her words were when you met.
The lesson here is never expect more than what you're already getting from someone. If you get more, great (assuming you wanted it), but chances are good that if they won't do it with you early on (especially during the infatuation phase), they ain't gonna.
In a sense, you both fooled the other. She fooled you into thinking you might get some MMF play, and you fooled her into thinking MMF play wasn't that important (after all, you stuck around for a year and let your relationship with her develop).
At first, I thought Dan's second approach was the best, but in retrospect that's kind of a dick move: "I'm going to fool around with anoter guy, whether you participate or not". I suspect you don't think she'd really be okay with you doing that, even if she said she was, or else you'd already be doing it.
So instead of laying down ultimatums that force her to decide whether to conform to the relationship you want (which is bound to only make you both miserable)- make a decision for yourself: either be content to the possibility that you'll never get to bring another guy into the situation (while still having a happy relationship with your girl), or cut her free so you can both pursue the relationships you want.
Throwing the ball into her court is just passive bullshit... it requires her to make the decision for you, even though you're the unhappy partner,
More...
But you didn't listen to that part of what she told you, you only listened to the 'unwavering open-mindedness' part. You ignored the dissonance of her early 'I would do anything for love, but I won't do that' message and decided to wait it out for a year in case her actions changed to match what you chose to believe her words were when you met.
The lesson here is never expect more than what you're already getting from someone. If you get more, great (assuming you wanted it), but chances are good that if they won't do it with you early on (especially during the infatuation phase), they ain't gonna.
In a sense, you both fooled the other. She fooled you into thinking you might get some MMF play, and you fooled her into thinking MMF play wasn't that important (after all, you stuck around for a year and let your relationship with her develop).
At first, I thought Dan's second approach was the best, but in retrospect that's kind of a dick move: "I'm going to fool around with anoter guy, whether you participate or not". I suspect you don't think she'd really be okay with you doing that, even if she said she was, or else you'd already be doing it.
So instead of laying down ultimatums that force her to decide whether to conform to the relationship you want (which is bound to only make you both miserable)- make a decision for yourself: either be content to the possibility that you'll never get to bring another guy into the situation (while still having a happy relationship with your girl), or cut her free so you can both pursue the relationships you want.
Throwing the ball into her court is just passive bullshit... it requires her to make the decision for you, even though you're the unhappy partner,
44
@40
Hell yeah. Who cares if someone won a Pulitzer Prize if they're going to die of cancer at least 10 years before you also die of the cancer they gave you? Plus, it makes them, you, and everything around you smell like shit.
I mean, would you reject a Pulitzer Prize winner because they decide to take up chain-smoking cigarettes when you hate that?
Hell yeah. Who cares if someone won a Pulitzer Prize if they're going to die of cancer at least 10 years before you also die of the cancer they gave you? Plus, it makes them, you, and everything around you smell like shit.
45
I had a somewhat similar experience, although much more trivial.
I've wanted a bike for a long long time. I've been reading about them, went and got my motorcycle license, a buddy even gave me his old helmet and gloves. I told this to my now-wife when we first got together, that once I had my money situation straight I was going to save up to buy a bike. Her response was 'Okay, no problem, but don't expect me to be a biker chick, an ex had a motorcycle and it was our only way of getting around and that got old quick, never again.'
Fast forward a couple years and it's looking like were finally getting everything straight, paying down 30% extra a month on the mortgage, 10% going to retirement, etc etc so I start looking at used bike prices and talking about some money into an account to save up to buy a bike.... and the answer is a flat out no. Bikes are stupid, dangerous, and expensive. We live in Seattle. Maybe, maybe I can get a scooter.... someday.... :/
I've wanted a bike for a long long time. I've been reading about them, went and got my motorcycle license, a buddy even gave me his old helmet and gloves. I told this to my now-wife when we first got together, that once I had my money situation straight I was going to save up to buy a bike. Her response was 'Okay, no problem, but don't expect me to be a biker chick, an ex had a motorcycle and it was our only way of getting around and that got old quick, never again.'
Fast forward a couple years and it's looking like were finally getting everything straight, paying down 30% extra a month on the mortgage, 10% going to retirement, etc etc so I start looking at used bike prices and talking about some money into an account to save up to buy a bike.... and the answer is a flat out no. Bikes are stupid, dangerous, and expensive. We live in Seattle. Maybe, maybe I can get a scooter.... someday.... :/
46
Good advice. Dump her: she tricked you and you're not compatible. One thing is missing though: you waited a year? That's a long time to go without something important to you.
Next time: don't wait a whole year. Say up front that group sex is important to you and that can't change, and if it doesn't happen within the first few weeks or so, don't waste any more time. And bring it up often: don't let someone just stall and wait till they're "more comfortable" or some such nonsense.
@26: yes, there are some women who become less into fun sex as they get closer to the guy. That's ironic, since that the very thing that will make them lose their Special and Worth Keeping Guy. And it's seriously fucked up to punish someone like that for being close to you.
BUT I don't think that's the norm: most women are either not into it at any point, or into it all the time, or only into it when they feel comfortable with someone.
@40: I would absolutely dump someone who started chain-smoking. Or who didn't want to have frequent sex with me. Sexual incompatibility is a huge deal-breaker. If they're so great otherwise, just be friends with them.
Next time: don't wait a whole year. Say up front that group sex is important to you and that can't change, and if it doesn't happen within the first few weeks or so, don't waste any more time. And bring it up often: don't let someone just stall and wait till they're "more comfortable" or some such nonsense.
@26: yes, there are some women who become less into fun sex as they get closer to the guy. That's ironic, since that the very thing that will make them lose their Special and Worth Keeping Guy. And it's seriously fucked up to punish someone like that for being close to you.
BUT I don't think that's the norm: most women are either not into it at any point, or into it all the time, or only into it when they feel comfortable with someone.
@40: I would absolutely dump someone who started chain-smoking. Or who didn't want to have frequent sex with me. Sexual incompatibility is a huge deal-breaker. If they're so great otherwise, just be friends with them.
47
@45: Just reading that makes me angry. I love my motorcycle and I'd never give it up. Who the fuck is she to tell you what you can and can't do with your money? It's not her decision. Why would you need her permission?
Go buy the bike. Now.
Go buy the bike. Now.
51
That's a little harsh, don't you think? I don't think that respecting a girlfriend's stated boundaries of emotional trauma/PTSD is synonymous with stated that the things he compassionately and temporarily sets aside aren't important. But, hey, countdown starting until she moves on to a guy that doesn't respect her boundaries because he's more interesting and dynamic and knows what he wants and gets it: damaged people are damaged people.
and you fooled her into thinking MMF play wasn't that important (after all, you stuck around for a year and let your relationship with her develop)
That's a little harsh, don't you think? I don't think that respecting a girlfriend's stated boundaries of emotional trauma/PTSD is synonymous with stated that the things he compassionately and temporarily sets aside aren't important. But, hey, countdown starting until she moves on to a guy that doesn't respect her boundaries because he's more interesting and dynamic and knows what he wants and gets it: damaged people are damaged people.
52
Advise him to break up, Dan, not breakup. The first is a verb, the second is a noun.
Internet Spelling Nazi #655322
Internet Spelling Nazi #655322
53
Anc @45:
Man, you so sound like a divorce file. If you DO buy the bike she will see you as self-centred and irresponsible, and be pissed with you (as she is pissed with you for even mentioning it). If you DON'T buy the bike she will be pissed at you for rolling over like wuss. Trust me, you may have troubles that are more than two wheels deep.
And, in followup to @43 and @51: a pox on people who ask you to set something temporarily aside out of respect to them, and then later use the fact that you agreed to set it aside as conclusive proof that the issue was decided in the way that they prefer.
Man, you so sound like a divorce file. If you DO buy the bike she will see you as self-centred and irresponsible, and be pissed with you (as she is pissed with you for even mentioning it). If you DON'T buy the bike she will be pissed at you for rolling over like wuss. Trust me, you may have troubles that are more than two wheels deep.
And, in followup to @43 and @51: a pox on people who ask you to set something temporarily aside out of respect to them, and then later use the fact that you agreed to set it aside as conclusive proof that the issue was decided in the way that they prefer.
55
LW, you sound like a bit of an asshole. Your GF is not a product, she's a person, and people are dynamic: they change. You were not "tricked." Apparently fulfilling your every sexual fantasy is more important to you than staying with the girl, so leave, but as long as you're with her, you're not entitled to any form of sex "promised" to you in the past, so get over it. Oh, and your bisexuality has nothing to do with it. Grow up.
57
She sounds young. As others have mentioned, claiming both "PTSD" and "up for anything" seems naive at best, and completely not self-aware at worst.
LW told her he was bi and expressed interests in threesomes early on, which she gave every indication she was into. She's not.
His current behavior indicates he's not going to be honoring his monogamously commitment to her in the very near future. Before he becomes a cheating weasel, he needs to cowboy up and lay it on the line: "I'm bi, I want man love too, I love you, but I will not be with you alone forever, and I will not ask you to do something you aren't comfortable with. I thought we knew what we were both up for, but it seems that those initial thoughts were not accurate. We are not compatible. I wish you the very best in your future therapy (for PTSD) and relationships (probably monogamous). Goodbye."
Maybe after they both grow up some they can be in a MMF threesome where they aren't the couple. Best of luck.
LW told her he was bi and expressed interests in threesomes early on, which she gave every indication she was into. She's not.
His current behavior indicates he's not going to be honoring his monogamously commitment to her in the very near future. Before he becomes a cheating weasel, he needs to cowboy up and lay it on the line: "I'm bi, I want man love too, I love you, but I will not be with you alone forever, and I will not ask you to do something you aren't comfortable with. I thought we knew what we were both up for, but it seems that those initial thoughts were not accurate. We are not compatible. I wish you the very best in your future therapy (for PTSD) and relationships (probably monogamous). Goodbye."
Maybe after they both grow up some they can be in a MMF threesome where they aren't the couple. Best of luck.
58
@43 "So instead of laying down ultimatums that force her to decide whether to conform to the relationship you want (which is bound to only make you both miserable)- make a decision for yourself: either be content to the possibility that you'll never get to bring another guy into the situation (while still having a happy relationship with your girl), or cut her free so you can both pursue the relationships you want."
My experience is the opposite. Once you're a couple, some things get decided together: what city you live in, whether to buy real estate, whether to have children, whether to be monogamous. If one side finds that it's very important to change the status quo (I have to move to Chicago for a new job / I've realized I can't do without occasional MM sex /we can afford that motorcycle), then raising that issue is not issuing an ultimatum. It's part of the ongoing, normal negotiation about how to live as a couple in a changing world. There's no guarantee that you come to a harmonious agreement, of course, and sometimes that leads to splitting up. But raising the issue, and even pushing it if your partner doesn't immediately agree with you - that's not "passive bullshit." That's doing the necessary work to live together.
My experience is the opposite. Once you're a couple, some things get decided together: what city you live in, whether to buy real estate, whether to have children, whether to be monogamous. If one side finds that it's very important to change the status quo (I have to move to Chicago for a new job / I've realized I can't do without occasional MM sex /we can afford that motorcycle), then raising that issue is not issuing an ultimatum. It's part of the ongoing, normal negotiation about how to live as a couple in a changing world. There's no guarantee that you come to a harmonious agreement, of course, and sometimes that leads to splitting up. But raising the issue, and even pushing it if your partner doesn't immediately agree with you - that's not "passive bullshit." That's doing the necessary work to live together.
62
@47, as I am currently in Afghanistan, that'd be a bit hard. ;)
@49, you are actually closer than you think. My mother is paranoid about motorcycles ever since she saw a guy on one get in a wreck and die when she went to help him. I'm pretty sure she was a major influence on my wife turning against me getting one. I KNOW my mom has talked to her about it at least.
@53 LOL. It's not quite that serious. I've been working on it for a while and I'm pretty sure at some point I'll get a bike. Probably just have to start off small, like an old Ninja 250 and then working my way up from there once she got more comfortable with it.
@49, you are actually closer than you think. My mother is paranoid about motorcycles ever since she saw a guy on one get in a wreck and die when she went to help him. I'm pretty sure she was a major influence on my wife turning against me getting one. I KNOW my mom has talked to her about it at least.
@53 LOL. It's not quite that serious. I've been working on it for a while and I'm pretty sure at some point I'll get a bike. Probably just have to start off small, like an old Ninja 250 and then working my way up from there once she got more comfortable with it.
63
@45 Some men drive their girlfriends/wives away from riding because they don't understand how terrible stock passenger seats are. They're so narrow that the pressure isn't distributed away from the bones. It's not just uncomfortable, they're unacceptably painful. It's a bad, bad experience to be in that much pain and hear "you're just a wimp."
Get good shocks and a nice wide passenger seat or a ButtyBuddy.
And get a pinup caricature of her painted on the bike, so she would be the asshole if she got mad.
Get good shocks and a nice wide passenger seat or a ButtyBuddy.
And get a pinup caricature of her painted on the bike, so she would be the asshole if she got mad.
64
@59: Does it happen "too much"? Perhaps people let situations bother them rather than take control of future situations (in this case, not dating a bi man that wants an open relationship if she doesn't want open relationships) but boundaries should still be respected and obeyed, even if she "thought" this wouldn't have been an issue. The reality is that PTSD is still "real", and a useful term even if people get hung up and can't move on with their lives. It's their lives to sort out, not yours.
65
@63: When people say "NO MOTORCYCLES", it's not about the comfort.
"And get a pinup caricature of her painted on the bike, so she would be the asshole if she got mad."
Yeah, that has zero chance of making her MORE angry.
"And get a pinup caricature of her painted on the bike, so she would be the asshole if she got mad."
Yeah, that has zero chance of making her MORE angry.
66
I get a pretty strong whiff of "sexually abused as minor" coming from the direction of the letter writer's GF.
67
You've stumbled upon the one of the stereotypes of hetero dating:
Example:
Step 1) I love that you're a musician!
Step 2) I think you like playing more than spending time with me.
Step 3) When are you going to grow up and quit the band?
Step 4) You are so boring, you never leave the house!
Example:
Step 1) I love that you're a musician!
Step 2) I think you like playing more than spending time with me.
Step 3) When are you going to grow up and quit the band?
Step 4) You are so boring, you never leave the house!
68
I'm with @5-- bait-and-switch? Well, yes...but intentional, malevolent, and/or selfish? Probably not.
That said, Brazil Nut hasn't talked much about the sort of threesome they're looking at-- she may be more willing to take on a threesome in which /she/ is the selected focus (the "meat" in the sandwich created by you and a third, as it were), and you are explicitly not. If you're okay with that kind of threesome, and you lay out ground rules firmly for all three of you, she might be okay with it (it's less about sharing you and more about sharing *her*).
If you can give her ample positive threesome experiences in this (or another form; maybe she'd prefer YOU were the focus, for example), she might be more willing to broaden her horizons after a while and move into other 'modes' of threesome...if PTSD-esque fears are really her problem, anyway.
@66 How have you smelled her? ;) I think SLLotD readers forget sometimes that all we usually get is a single letter...anything we 'add in' is speculation at *best*.
That said, Brazil Nut hasn't talked much about the sort of threesome they're looking at-- she may be more willing to take on a threesome in which /she/ is the selected focus (the "meat" in the sandwich created by you and a third, as it were), and you are explicitly not. If you're okay with that kind of threesome, and you lay out ground rules firmly for all three of you, she might be okay with it (it's less about sharing you and more about sharing *her*).
If you can give her ample positive threesome experiences in this (or another form; maybe she'd prefer YOU were the focus, for example), she might be more willing to broaden her horizons after a while and move into other 'modes' of threesome...if PTSD-esque fears are really her problem, anyway.
@66 How have you smelled her? ;) I think SLLotD readers forget sometimes that all we usually get is a single letter...anything we 'add in' is speculation at *best*.
69
@68: "How have you smelled her? ;) I think SLLotD readers forget sometimes that all we usually get is a single letter...anything we 'add in' is speculation at *best*."
Exactly. "I BET THIS PERSON WAS MOLESTED/HAS DADDY ISSUES" and "I KNOW THE LW IS MAKING IT UP" are tiresome.
It's entirely plausible that the poor woman just had a bad experience as an adult.
Exactly. "I BET THIS PERSON WAS MOLESTED/HAS DADDY ISSUES" and "I KNOW THE LW IS MAKING IT UP" are tiresome.
It's entirely plausible that the poor woman just had a bad experience as an adult.
70
@68: sensible advice, but one thing that has come up here in the past is the notion that reasonable requirements or respect for parameters are sometimes code for pushing something off indefinitely; the condition-setting party doesn't really want to do X but to please their partner they agree to it, provided that a set of reasonable conditions are met, but those conditions never seem to be met. If the LW doesn't want MMF threesomes then she has an unchallengeable right not to have but she also has an obligation to say so, not pretend that she might some day do this just to hang on to a guy that she wants to keep. That's fair to no-one.
71
@70 yeah, but it's everyone's job to take care of themselves and not succumb to wishful thinking. If your partner talks a good game, but is never willing to actually do the deed -- don't complain twenty years later that you were bamboozled.
72
@Roma: I am a bisexual female, and I would give my right hand to have a relationship with a bisexual male that is comfortable with threesomes. It would just give us freedom to explore all sorts of sexual scenarios that are out of reach with a straight person, like m/m/f (with a lot of m/m action), and of course f/f/m. Most guys want the f/f/m scenario, but scream like a banshee if you ever suggest the m/m/f. And regarding LW, I believe he should break up with this girl. He is unhappy in the relationship since he is already looking for an alternative. Sometimes, in relationships, we look outside for what is lacking inside.
73
Olorime: I've heard bisexual guys kvetch that many straight women really don't distinguish between "bisexual" and "gay" and so they run like rabbits from guys that are interested in MMF threesomes.
74
@73 Straight women who want monogamy are wary of marrying bi guys, yes. Monogamous women in general are comforted by the fact that it is (relatively) hard for straight men to find no-strings-attached sex partners. With a bi guy, she doesn't have that protection, as it isn't so hard to find male NSA sex partners. Also, as someone who craves cock, she may worry that a bi guy will also eventually crave cock, and won't be able to be monogamous in the long run.
75
As suggested @72, bisexuals may want to look for people who are themselves interested in open relationships. It's a smaller dating pool, but may work better in the long run.
76
@62: Come back safe, and get the bike when you get back... God knows you deserve it. Starting with a Ninja 250 is a great idea, especially if you've never ridden before, and I'd also suggest (re)taking the Motorcycle Safety Foundation class. Also, getting a new bike is not that expensive because you can finance it over time. The additional safety of the new bike and the MSF course might ease her mind a little.
77
@39 - granted, I'm drawing from a fairly limited pool, but every single woman with whom I actually discuss sexual issues thinks bi guys are hot. And most of us are partnered with actively bi guys. I hear some guys say that, that they think women are skeeved out by guy-on-guy, but all the women I know well are either into M/M slash, watching gay porn, actively partnered with bi guys, or at least fantasize about same.
78
@45 - If my husband were ever that controlling, we would either be in counseling or I would be filing papers. You are equal partners. She certainly has the right to her *opinion* about your getting a bike, but if you're not impoverishing the general fund by buying one, she has no right to prevent your purchasing one.
That kind of thing is why I've never combined my finances with my husband's. That way, neither of us has to ask for "permission" to buy what we want. It's my money. So long as I pay my share of the bills, and don't run us into debt, how I spend my discretionary cash is my business. And how he spends his extra money is not any of my business. It eliminates a hell of a lot of fights and bad feelings right there.
So...establish your own motorcycle savings fund, and buy your bike. If she doesn't approve, well, let her bitch. She isn't your mother.
That kind of thing is why I've never combined my finances with my husband's. That way, neither of us has to ask for "permission" to buy what we want. It's my money. So long as I pay my share of the bills, and don't run us into debt, how I spend my discretionary cash is my business. And how he spends his extra money is not any of my business. It eliminates a hell of a lot of fights and bad feelings right there.
So...establish your own motorcycle savings fund, and buy your bike. If she doesn't approve, well, let her bitch. She isn't your mother.
79
@78: "If my husband were ever that controlling, we would either be in counseling or I would be filing papers. You are equal partners. She certainly has the right to her *opinion* about your getting a bike, but if you're not impoverishing the general fund by buying one, she has no right to prevent your purchasing one."
Motorcycle-possessiveness is generally safety and concern issue. It's not like buying a boat, or a classic car, or a new laptop, or any other simply possession/conveyance.
Motorcycle-possessiveness is generally safety and concern issue. It's not like buying a boat, or a classic car, or a new laptop, or any other simply possession/conveyance.
80
@34 regarding the no imagination.
I put it as a side note because I was thinking of some one on say OKCupid or some such. There are a lot of people on there that say they are up for anything, which to me shows no concept of what people can really be into.
I guess I tend to think about boundaries a lot. We all have personal boundaries. Someone who says they are up for ANYTHING, I would bet has not really thought about theirs.
I put it as a side note because I was thinking of some one on say OKCupid or some such. There are a lot of people on there that say they are up for anything, which to me shows no concept of what people can really be into.
I guess I tend to think about boundaries a lot. We all have personal boundaries. Someone who says they are up for ANYTHING, I would bet has not really thought about theirs.
81
@80: It makes sense, they lack the language to properly define their boundaries. People have a great ability to create fantasy "perfect" scenarios in all aspects of life (hardly just their sex-life) and beat their head against them because they think that they are supposed to make every scenario work with the "right" person/job/city/other variable. Giving up that fantasy is tougher than facing that the reality may not be emotionally healthy.
I've been there, most people have. Sex only serves to add on other pressures.
I've been there, most people have. Sex only serves to add on other pressures.
82
@32 seeker6079
"nartweag @28: You and I may not be in disagreement. You speak of "some" and I speak of "the average", i.e. "typical". "Some" girls aren't "average" or "typical". My point stands.
I agree to some extent on "some" vrs. "average".
But really who is "average" in a relationship? And how is one to know if they are in a relationship with "average"? Cause I would certainly never want to date "average".
I think my issue with your statement involves conceding to a fact. I don't think we have to concede and I don't think it's a fact. I guess that is because I don't believe in "average" when it comes to relationships. Every person is different and has different needs, limits, strengths, weaknesses, etc...
I think because I feel that way, when I see "average" used they way you used it, I think all/most. Which is why I used "some".
and @ 46 BlackRose
@26: yes, there are some women who become less into fun sex as they get closer to the guy. That's ironic, since that the very thing that will make them lose their Special and Worth Keeping Guy. And it's seriously fucked up to punish someone like that for being close to you.
I was not trying to say that some women don't do that. I wanted to make a point that some women are the opposite. I kind of felt like I needed to stick up for the women (like myself) that are in the opposite camp. :)
I also wonder if much of the time when that happens, is it because of the closeness or are there other factors involved? No clear cut answers really.
Another side note: I would really love love love if Slog would switch to nested comments. It would have taken me way less time to write this.
"nartweag @28: You and I may not be in disagreement. You speak of "some" and I speak of "the average", i.e. "typical". "Some" girls aren't "average" or "typical". My point stands.
I agree to some extent on "some" vrs. "average".
But really who is "average" in a relationship? And how is one to know if they are in a relationship with "average"? Cause I would certainly never want to date "average".
I think my issue with your statement involves conceding to a fact. I don't think we have to concede and I don't think it's a fact. I guess that is because I don't believe in "average" when it comes to relationships. Every person is different and has different needs, limits, strengths, weaknesses, etc...
I think because I feel that way, when I see "average" used they way you used it, I think all/most. Which is why I used "some".
and @ 46 BlackRose
@26: yes, there are some women who become less into fun sex as they get closer to the guy. That's ironic, since that the very thing that will make them lose their Special and Worth Keeping Guy. And it's seriously fucked up to punish someone like that for being close to you.
I was not trying to say that some women don't do that. I wanted to make a point that some women are the opposite. I kind of felt like I needed to stick up for the women (like myself) that are in the opposite camp. :)
I also wonder if much of the time when that happens, is it because of the closeness or are there other factors involved? No clear cut answers really.
Another side note: I would really love love love if Slog would switch to nested comments. It would have taken me way less time to write this.
83
I was going to give pretty much EricaP's answer to this paragraph, but she beat me to it. I'll only add the following: confronting people with their behavior ('you said X at first...now you say Not-X') is not the same as 'forcing' people by means of an 'ultimatum'. It's simply telling them that you're aware of a pattern, and one that makes you unhappy, and that you want something to be done about it. It might be her deciding that she is willing to try threesomes after all, and it might be him deciding that it's better to break free and go pursue his interests elsewhere -- but all in all it is the kind of situation that the couple should discuss as equals. It's a problem that affects their capacity of being happy together: of course it, and all possible solutions, should be discussed.
It's true that in real life relationships are often asymmetric, and one partner is 'more dependent' or 'more insecure', and just mentioning a problem like this feels like putting pressure on this weaker partner. But that is an independent problem; and one way to help weaker/insecure people actually grow a bit stronger and more secure is to honestly place them in these situations with all options laid out but without moralistic blame being thrown around -- 'you're free to choose, but so am I'.
@43 "So instead of laying down ultimatums that force her to decide whether to conform to the relationship you want (which is bound to only make you both miserable)- make a decision for yourself: either be content to the possibility that you'll never get to bring another guy into the situation (while still having a happy relationship with your girl), or cut her free so you can both pursue the relationships you want."
I was going to give pretty much EricaP's answer to this paragraph, but she beat me to it. I'll only add the following: confronting people with their behavior ('you said X at first...now you say Not-X') is not the same as 'forcing' people by means of an 'ultimatum'. It's simply telling them that you're aware of a pattern, and one that makes you unhappy, and that you want something to be done about it. It might be her deciding that she is willing to try threesomes after all, and it might be him deciding that it's better to break free and go pursue his interests elsewhere -- but all in all it is the kind of situation that the couple should discuss as equals. It's a problem that affects their capacity of being happy together: of course it, and all possible solutions, should be discussed.
It's true that in real life relationships are often asymmetric, and one partner is 'more dependent' or 'more insecure', and just mentioning a problem like this feels like putting pressure on this weaker partner. But that is an independent problem; and one way to help weaker/insecure people actually grow a bit stronger and more secure is to honestly place them in these situations with all options laid out but without moralistic blame being thrown around -- 'you're free to choose, but so am I'.
84
@82: Oh, I know, I was responding to 26, not you.
@79: No, it's fear, paranoia, and possessiveness masquerading as a safety and concern issue. A lot of people are afraid of motorcycles because they seem more dangerous than they actually are (like passenger air travel, walking home alone, meeting strangers online for sex, and leaving your kids unattended, and unlike things like smoking, tanning, or drunk driving, which seem much less dangerous than they actually are -- people are horrible at estimating risk). Motorcycles are very safe vehicles if you take the proper safety precautions. Don't drink and drive, wear protective gear, don't buy a racing bike for your first bike, and take a Motorcycle Safety Foundation class.
@79: No, it's fear, paranoia, and possessiveness masquerading as a safety and concern issue. A lot of people are afraid of motorcycles because they seem more dangerous than they actually are (like passenger air travel, walking home alone, meeting strangers online for sex, and leaving your kids unattended, and unlike things like smoking, tanning, or drunk driving, which seem much less dangerous than they actually are -- people are horrible at estimating risk). Motorcycles are very safe vehicles if you take the proper safety precautions. Don't drink and drive, wear protective gear, don't buy a racing bike for your first bike, and take a Motorcycle Safety Foundation class.
85
@62, Yeah, I need to take the MSF course. You are correct that I've never ridden, but that is about to change. The place we are moving to has very limited mobility so we'll be operating mostly with ATVs and motorcycles. Gonna have a class next week. Pretty excited. As to buying on credit, we don't like to do that. Much better to delay gratification, save up and not give the banks any money (they have enough, no?) Unless things take a turn for the worse, we should have about 10k saved up from this deployment so I'm sure I can get a couple grand for a bike if I play my cards right, if not buying now, to at least put away for a later date (the other 8k I'd like to spend on my wife.... her titties to be more specific. :D)
@78, yeah for a lot of people that works great, we do find with our system. In my first post I said "on a more TRIVIAL note" which people seem to be glossing over. Yes I want a bike, but it's not something I have to have right now. Even if I had my own money I wouldn't want to just go over her, especially when her objection is over my safety. I think my choice of career up till now has had her worrying over me enough. Once I'm out next spring, have had experience riding over here, and take the MSF course I think I'll have a strong enough argument to push for a bike. Might have get a scooter or a small bike first, but it's worth it if it makes her feel better.
@78, yeah for a lot of people that works great, we do find with our system. In my first post I said "on a more TRIVIAL note" which people seem to be glossing over. Yes I want a bike, but it's not something I have to have right now. Even if I had my own money I wouldn't want to just go over her, especially when her objection is over my safety. I think my choice of career up till now has had her worrying over me enough. Once I'm out next spring, have had experience riding over here, and take the MSF course I think I'll have a strong enough argument to push for a bike. Might have get a scooter or a small bike first, but it's worth it if it makes her feel better.
86
@84,
doh!
I will reiterate my nesting comments suggestion. It's hard to remember which number(s) ones own comment(s) are.
doh!
I will reiterate my nesting comments suggestion. It's hard to remember which number(s) ones own comment(s) are.
87
@85 Steve Martin has a great SNL skit - he's talking to a financial planner who advises people not to buy things until they have enough money.
http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/v…
http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/v…
88
Dude, she said you're "trying to initiate a threesome for her instead of allowing her to instigate." She's basically told you what to do here, and it's not dtmfa.
Give her the go-ahead to flirt with randoms and pursue some kind of fling outside your relationship (with agreed-on boundaries). Once she's got a hard-on for someone else, and sees that you like it and you're not trying to interfere with it (outside of pre-determined boundaries), she's WAY more likely to agree to fucking the both of you at the same time. If you want to get involved in the sex, you're probably going to have to resign yourself to watching for the first several times, but if that's what you have to do to prove to her that she's always in control, then it ought to be worth it.
Good luck.
Give her the go-ahead to flirt with randoms and pursue some kind of fling outside your relationship (with agreed-on boundaries). Once she's got a hard-on for someone else, and sees that you like it and you're not trying to interfere with it (outside of pre-determined boundaries), she's WAY more likely to agree to fucking the both of you at the same time. If you want to get involved in the sex, you're probably going to have to resign yourself to watching for the first several times, but if that's what you have to do to prove to her that she's always in control, then it ought to be worth it.
Good luck.
89
@88: They are not at all on the same wavelength. What he wants is not what she wants, and vice versa. This is not working out well, and it's going to get even worse the longer they stay together.
90
The reality of dating is that making your sexual needs dealbreakers will drive off 99% of the women you might date.
Which is good, because that's how you find out who the remaining 1% are.
Hang in there. Stick to your guns.
Which is good, because that's how you find out who the remaining 1% are.
Hang in there. Stick to your guns.
91
72/Olorimë & 77/Geni, thanks for your comments.
Olorimë, I know there are women like you out there. It's just my impression that far fewer women than men are turned on by the idea (or reality) of their partner being with someone of the same sex. You said you'd give your right hand to have a relationship with a bisexual male that is comfortable with [MMF] threesomes. Is finding a guy like that that hard?
Most guys want the f/f/m scenario, but scream like a banshee if you ever suggest the m/m/f. Do you find that surprising? I sure don't. I'm sure that there are far more straight men than bi men and straight men like women (hence wanting more than one in the FFM thing) but aren't interested in being sexual with another man (hence the banshee thing vis-a-vis MMF.)
Geni, I don't doubt that all the women you know well are turned on by guy-with-guy stuff. But I suspect these women aren't representative of most women.
Olorimë, I know there are women like you out there. It's just my impression that far fewer women than men are turned on by the idea (or reality) of their partner being with someone of the same sex. You said you'd give your right hand to have a relationship with a bisexual male that is comfortable with [MMF] threesomes. Is finding a guy like that that hard?
Most guys want the f/f/m scenario, but scream like a banshee if you ever suggest the m/m/f. Do you find that surprising? I sure don't. I'm sure that there are far more straight men than bi men and straight men like women (hence wanting more than one in the FFM thing) but aren't interested in being sexual with another man (hence the banshee thing vis-a-vis MMF.)
Geni, I don't doubt that all the women you know well are turned on by guy-with-guy stuff. But I suspect these women aren't representative of most women.
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