Slog
News & ArtsMonday, October 17, 2011
Sex Porn In Reality
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:30 AM
Bettina Arndt writing in Sydney Morning Herald:
The suggestion that porn changes men's attitudes to sex is really questionable. While there's a body of psychology research suggesting exposure to porn has that effect, Professor Catherine Lumby and colleagues in The Porn Report, published in 2008, found this laboratory-based research to be contradictory and unlikely to reflect real-life situations. ''The entire tradition of social science research into pornography has started with the assumption that porn is a major cause of negative attitudes towards women and has set out to prove this,'' conclude these Australian academics. These researchers found mainstream porn to be largely free of violence and other degrading material. Instead, the huge growth area online is the DIY amateur porn industry, where ordinary men and women are baring all, grunting and groaning in front of web cameras—a far cry from the dark and dangerous world so many warn about.
Some people—men and women—seek out violent and degrading porn because violence and degradation turns them on. They don't get turned on to violence and degradation by porn. (How much porn do you view that doesn't cater to your established preferences?) Hardcore kinky porn meets a demand, it doesn't create it. And the question we need to ask when we discuss it isn't, "Should this type of porn be allowed to exist?", but rather, "Under what conditions is this type of porn being created?"
1
I agree that people wouldn't seek out porn featuring violence and degradation unless that sort of thing turned them on, but I also think that gratifying your desire for something can increase your appetite for that thing. I'm still not sure whether fantasizes about rape and things like that should be indulged or repressed.
3
Yeah, I'm ambivalent. I think it's a little bit of both: porn reflects *and* reifies popular conceptions about what people want out of sex. I have to say that while I have seen some porn that I've liked, I'm more often appalled at how women in regular porn are treated: I wouldn't want to be so treated, and it disturbs me to think that's what men think women want. (And I don't think men escape scott free in their portrayals, but at least they're seen as agencies of desire rather than objects of desire.)
I do welcome the huge growth in DIY porn and things like the Hump festival are breaking down the unimaginative and lacking mainstream portrayals.
I don't think there's any easy answer: Oh this stuff IS BAD vs Oh this stuff is TOTES NORMAL both miss the mark.
I do welcome the huge growth in DIY porn and things like the Hump festival are breaking down the unimaginative and lacking mainstream portrayals.
I don't think there's any easy answer: Oh this stuff IS BAD vs Oh this stuff is TOTES NORMAL both miss the mark.
4
I agree with #3 (BEG), and would also say that I do think a prolonged exposure to porn, especially if it begins at an early age and predates a man's actual sexual experiences (or early in his sexual life, if he's become sexually active
It's not the degradation I refer to so much as the idea that every woman is always ready and willing for what Dan has called "varsity-level sex." It might be surprising and disappointing to find out that not all women are into more extreme kinds of sex or kinky sex.
It's not the degradation I refer to so much as the idea that every woman is always ready and willing for what Dan has called "varsity-level sex." It might be surprising and disappointing to find out that not all women are into more extreme kinds of sex or kinky sex.
5
There always is a give-and-take, two-way relationship between society and the media. On the one hand, of course the media does influence us -- if we thought the images we see didn't have any effect on our pulsions and desires, who would ever spend money on advertising? On the other hand, the best thing for the media is to give society what it already wants, because the return is immediate; the best strategy is indeed to reflect desires that are already there.
@BEG: I don't think the porn you question shows "what men think women want" anymore than action movies show "what men (people?) think the solution for crime / war is" (i.e., get a gun and shoot as many of them as possible), or horror movies show "what men (people?) think should happen to people who go to dark places." To some extent, it's more like fantasies: they're not always things we want to happen (and if sometimes they do, we're often surprised by how different they feel in reality than they did in our imagination) as they are about playing with symbols, erotic and otherwise, to get a purely head-internal strong result. A mind trip, if you will.
And to another extent, porn (like again some other fantasies) are about what we would like to experience at least once, to escape what we know to be reality: no big gun fights, no big car chases, no sad but charming old-fashioned vampire heroes, but... a much less adrenaline-filled reality. I.e., often, when people watch porn, they watch something they know isn't true, just to make believe.
@BEG: I don't think the porn you question shows "what men think women want" anymore than action movies show "what men (people?) think the solution for crime / war is" (i.e., get a gun and shoot as many of them as possible), or horror movies show "what men (people?) think should happen to people who go to dark places." To some extent, it's more like fantasies: they're not always things we want to happen (and if sometimes they do, we're often surprised by how different they feel in reality than they did in our imagination) as they are about playing with symbols, erotic and otherwise, to get a purely head-internal strong result. A mind trip, if you will.
And to another extent, porn (like again some other fantasies) are about what we would like to experience at least once, to escape what we know to be reality: no big gun fights, no big car chases, no sad but charming old-fashioned vampire heroes, but... a much less adrenaline-filled reality. I.e., often, when people watch porn, they watch something they know isn't true, just to make believe.
6
nocutename (@4), I agree with you to a certain extent; to the extent that I agree anything can be exaggerated, that it's possible to be overexposed (with bad consequences like addiction/dependency or worse) to anything, not just porn, but also bad soap operas, rock concerts, historical documentaries, philosophy, stamp collections, cats and dogs...
I guess my main point is that porn is not different from any other thing that interests most, if not all, people. Overexposure can lead to people thinking that 'this is what the world really is', or to depend on whatever feelings it gives them in order to cope with the boring sides of life, etc. for any of these things.
I guess my main point is that porn is not different from any other thing that interests most, if not all, people. Overexposure can lead to people thinking that 'this is what the world really is', or to depend on whatever feelings it gives them in order to cope with the boring sides of life, etc. for any of these things.
7
@4: Are you suggesting that porn should have less sex, to more accurately reflect the reality of human sexuality? Or that having a genre that focuses on actual "varsity level" sexual activity may warp peoples' minds in the same way that televised sports make people think that it's OK to charge people full speed and tackle them?
8
This is yet another case where people use "oh, *I* would never succumb to being brainwashed like that, but all of the other idiots out there need to be protected" to justify approbation of something that's not their taste.
Oh, porn might make other people think that all women want sex all the time. Not me, of course, I know better. But that porn stuff, it might be a problem for the less evolved. Have I mentioned how superior I am, with my ability to see through the manipulative / exploitative / immoral media?
Oh, porn might make other people think that all women want sex all the time. Not me, of course, I know better. But that porn stuff, it might be a problem for the less evolved. Have I mentioned how superior I am, with my ability to see through the manipulative / exploitative / immoral media?
9
If I thought the media was all that big an influence I'd be much more concerned with how relationships are portrayed in movies and on TV than how sex is portrayed in porn. Sexism, unrealistic expectations, shitty conflict resolution, a celebration of immature men being cared for by hot funny women, etc.
Most people figure out that porn, especially the commercial variety, is not a fair representation of sex about the time they lose their virginity. In fact, porn is often a great thing in relationships when the parties have different levels of sexual activity as it gives the more desirous party an outlet.
Most people figure out that porn, especially the commercial variety, is not a fair representation of sex about the time they lose their virginity. In fact, porn is often a great thing in relationships when the parties have different levels of sexual activity as it gives the more desirous party an outlet.
10
@Mr Mehlman (1), that is indeed a legitimate fear, and one I myself have on occasion. In fact, I've wondered if the whole of BDSM kinks, even though, as so many thoughtful and considerate BDSMers demonstrate every day, they can be lived safely, sanely, and consesually, does not include in itself some negative side, something 'wrong' (read: self-destructive, non-life-affirming) that is being strengthened by indulging in such kinks.
Maybe the best answer to all such concerns is the thought that the world itself is morally ambiguous, that good and evil are often linked in complex ways (remember Pink Floyd's "so you think you can tell / heaven from hell") that there may actually be nothing that you can always indulge into without any bad consequences -- not only rape fantasies, but even more mainstream romantic ones. Life is dangerous, and one should always keep one's eyes open.
Maybe the best answer to all such concerns is the thought that the world itself is morally ambiguous, that good and evil are often linked in complex ways (remember Pink Floyd's "so you think you can tell / heaven from hell") that there may actually be nothing that you can always indulge into without any bad consequences -- not only rape fantasies, but even more mainstream romantic ones. Life is dangerous, and one should always keep one's eyes open.
11
@9 (giffy), I couldn't agree more. Well said.
@7-8 (also), I see where you're coming from (and even why your tone is somewhat angry), and I agree to a certain extent. Yes, people often think that the 'great unwashed' is not going to have their level of maturity and will succumb to the idea that women and men are just as they're shown in porn. OK. But... again, if what we see in the media had no effect whatsoever on us; if we all, or even most of us, were not ever influenced to want or think things because of images we see in the media, who would ever waste a dollar in advertising?
@7-8 (also), I see where you're coming from (and even why your tone is somewhat angry), and I agree to a certain extent. Yes, people often think that the 'great unwashed' is not going to have their level of maturity and will succumb to the idea that women and men are just as they're shown in porn. OK. But... again, if what we see in the media had no effect whatsoever on us; if we all, or even most of us, were not ever influenced to want or think things because of images we see in the media, who would ever waste a dollar in advertising?
12
I enjoy quality porn, but I would disagree with the statement made that mainstream porn is not degrading towards women. When I see mainstream porn, it (unfortunately) shows a lot of degrading acts such as the stupid ass-slapping and the facial. Women are completely objectified in mainstream porn, and this is a huge turnoff.
Likewise, XTube is just nasty. Although there are a few videos on XTube worth watching, you also get illegal acts of voyeurism, videos of guys with underage asian girls, and even acts of rape (I saw a recent video where the woman was apparently drugged). Not degrading? Yeah, right.
Likewise, XTube is just nasty. Although there are a few videos on XTube worth watching, you also get illegal acts of voyeurism, videos of guys with underage asian girls, and even acts of rape (I saw a recent video where the woman was apparently drugged). Not degrading? Yeah, right.
13
@7: I have no suggestions. I don't believe in censorship, or even bowlderization, barring extreme violence or the use of children, etc. I'm just saying that as a woman I feel as though I have to navigate a sexual world in which I know some men expect women to look a certain way and behave in a certain way. To a great extent, amateur porn and extreme fetish porn may undermine that (it becomes possible to seek out and see unconventionally attractive or even plain old unattractive people, or people in furry costumes, or other sights that no one is likely to think "typical"), but I still think that, as in many other aspects of life, a narrow sampling gets represented as the norm.
I don't know how long it takes a thinking man to break away from expectations derived from a mis-representation of the norm, but I think of two things:
1) The encounters my 17-year-old daughter and 13-year old daughters are likely to have.
2) My always-present body-image insecurities and anxieties and an interview I once heard on the occasion of rthe "Playboy"'s 50th anniversary. A 60-something-year-old man who had been a reader of the mag since it began at the same time he hit puberty, he claimed that it set up false expectations of what a naked woman would look like and he claimed it had done damage to his ability to appreciate his partners. Now granted, this man is an idiot, and lacking in some critical thinking skills.
But he spoke to every fear that had ever chilled me and many of my girlfriends: that airbrushed images of some powerful men's notion of beauty and perfection would interfere with anyone's finding us "pretty enough." (To younger Slog readers, "airbrush" is a technique that was used to retouch and change photographs in the days before digital photography and photoshop.)
I think mainstream porn continues to foster a sense of insecurity and anxiety in a lot of women, that they won't "measure up" somehow, and now there are yardsticks to be measured against that have progressed beyond merely the way one looks.
That's all. Yes, it's an over-simplification.
No, I don't propose a "solution."
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I don't know how long it takes a thinking man to break away from expectations derived from a mis-representation of the norm, but I think of two things:
1) The encounters my 17-year-old daughter and 13-year old daughters are likely to have.
2) My always-present body-image insecurities and anxieties and an interview I once heard on the occasion of rthe "Playboy"'s 50th anniversary. A 60-something-year-old man who had been a reader of the mag since it began at the same time he hit puberty, he claimed that it set up false expectations of what a naked woman would look like and he claimed it had done damage to his ability to appreciate his partners. Now granted, this man is an idiot, and lacking in some critical thinking skills.
But he spoke to every fear that had ever chilled me and many of my girlfriends: that airbrushed images of some powerful men's notion of beauty and perfection would interfere with anyone's finding us "pretty enough." (To younger Slog readers, "airbrush" is a technique that was used to retouch and change photographs in the days before digital photography and photoshop.)
I think mainstream porn continues to foster a sense of insecurity and anxiety in a lot of women, that they won't "measure up" somehow, and now there are yardsticks to be measured against that have progressed beyond merely the way one looks.
That's all. Yes, it's an over-simplification.
No, I don't propose a "solution."
14
@11: Yes, I get a little angry when people elevate themselves to pass judgment on the great unwashed (aka everyone but them). People rarely talk about protecting themselves, it's always in the name of those other idiots who are weaker / dumber / less moral than them. It's irritating.
Most advertising associates a product (say, beer) with the surrounding media in which it's advertised (say, football). Let me turn this around on you: if the beer commercial is going to make you buy beer, why doesn't the surrounding football game -- which is far longer than the commercial, even these days -- make you play football?
My suggestion: the commercial *reflects* the tastes of the audience and attempts to sway their *brand* decision. The porn analog would be that yes, maybe kinky and degrading porn influences sexual behavior, but it's going to influence the particulars of the act for people who *already* engage in such behavior. Maybe someone will be called a slut instead of a whore. It's not going to change peoples' fundamental tastes any more than a Bud Light commercial is going to get a wine drinker to buy beer.
Most advertising associates a product (say, beer) with the surrounding media in which it's advertised (say, football). Let me turn this around on you: if the beer commercial is going to make you buy beer, why doesn't the surrounding football game -- which is far longer than the commercial, even these days -- make you play football?
My suggestion: the commercial *reflects* the tastes of the audience and attempts to sway their *brand* decision. The porn analog would be that yes, maybe kinky and degrading porn influences sexual behavior, but it's going to influence the particulars of the act for people who *already* engage in such behavior. Maybe someone will be called a slut instead of a whore. It's not going to change peoples' fundamental tastes any more than a Bud Light commercial is going to get a wine drinker to buy beer.
15
@nocutename, who said: "but I still think that, as in many other aspects of life, a narrow sampling gets represented as the norm. "
Indeed, which is my own personal observation: it's not porn, it's the human tendency to interpret narrow samplings as worth more than they really are to describe reality.
As a man, I can tell you how long it took me to abandon illusions about porn showing reality: a few talks with honest people, plus the first half hour of the first time I tried to have sex. After realizing that just looking surprised and saying 'but you're supposed to like this!' wouldn't change anything, and remembering what I had heard from good friends, male and female, and actually thinking about what I knew about people even back then, I realized porn is as unrealiable a guide to sexuality as Cosmo is.
The fear whereof you speak, nocutename -- namely that men will have the wrong, unrealistic, 'damaged' expectations because of the portrayal of women in porn (and -- why not? -- in literature and the media in general; don't the Disney Princesses also give the wrong idea about what women look like and how they behave?) -- is very well known to me, since I was also afraid women would expect from me the kind of heroic things or the depth of worldly, streetwise knowledge men were always showing in movies. I thought, women will all despise me for not looking / behaving like 'real men' do in the movies.
So I say: it's not porn, it's idealization. Fairy tales (now Disney princesses) had the same effect before. It's the same problem Cervantes ascribed to Don Quijote: thinking that the chivalry books he read accurately portrayed reality. We only are more afraid of the effects of porn because... why? I think because sex is suuuuch a complicated topic in our society, anything that has to do with sex is always treated as if it were not a normal thing in life, but something 'completely different' from some other world, the World of Sex, which is Important but also Dirty and so on and so forth...
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Indeed, which is my own personal observation: it's not porn, it's the human tendency to interpret narrow samplings as worth more than they really are to describe reality.
As a man, I can tell you how long it took me to abandon illusions about porn showing reality: a few talks with honest people, plus the first half hour of the first time I tried to have sex. After realizing that just looking surprised and saying 'but you're supposed to like this!' wouldn't change anything, and remembering what I had heard from good friends, male and female, and actually thinking about what I knew about people even back then, I realized porn is as unrealiable a guide to sexuality as Cosmo is.
The fear whereof you speak, nocutename -- namely that men will have the wrong, unrealistic, 'damaged' expectations because of the portrayal of women in porn (and -- why not? -- in literature and the media in general; don't the Disney Princesses also give the wrong idea about what women look like and how they behave?) -- is very well known to me, since I was also afraid women would expect from me the kind of heroic things or the depth of worldly, streetwise knowledge men were always showing in movies. I thought, women will all despise me for not looking / behaving like 'real men' do in the movies.
So I say: it's not porn, it's idealization. Fairy tales (now Disney princesses) had the same effect before. It's the same problem Cervantes ascribed to Don Quijote: thinking that the chivalry books he read accurately portrayed reality. We only are more afraid of the effects of porn because... why? I think because sex is suuuuch a complicated topic in our society, anything that has to do with sex is always treated as if it were not a normal thing in life, but something 'completely different' from some other world, the World of Sex, which is Important but also Dirty and so on and so forth...
16
@12 and 13,
I agree those things are problems, but I am just not sure you can blame them on porn. After all that voyeurism, drugging, and child rape is happening whether it is video taped or not. Those problems predate porn, though it being online certainly adds to the harm done to the victim. If anything people filming themselves might make it easier to catch and jail them. That being said I think some of these might wind up not being as nonconsensual as they might first appear.
People have had crazy expectations of attractiveness long before we had porn and there have been people with unrealistic sexual expectations long before porn too. Foot binding, corsets, various types of body modification, etc.
I think a lot of the issues with sex has to do with people having more relationships than before and therefor encountering more people with differing understandings of what is attractive or what sex is. There really isn't a norm when it comes to those things.
I think the solution is open communication about what one is into and an ability to end things if those disagreements are too great. That and empowering people to say no to things they don't want to do.
I agree those things are problems, but I am just not sure you can blame them on porn. After all that voyeurism, drugging, and child rape is happening whether it is video taped or not. Those problems predate porn, though it being online certainly adds to the harm done to the victim. If anything people filming themselves might make it easier to catch and jail them. That being said I think some of these might wind up not being as nonconsensual as they might first appear.
People have had crazy expectations of attractiveness long before we had porn and there have been people with unrealistic sexual expectations long before porn too. Foot binding, corsets, various types of body modification, etc.
I think a lot of the issues with sex has to do with people having more relationships than before and therefor encountering more people with differing understandings of what is attractive or what sex is. There really isn't a norm when it comes to those things.
I think the solution is open communication about what one is into and an ability to end things if those disagreements are too great. That and empowering people to say no to things they don't want to do.
17
I'm with ankylosaur and the others saying that most men (and women) understand that culture (porn, movies, romance novels) represents fantasy, not real life.
My experience with middle-aged men is that they have all the same insecurities that women do. They don't want to commit to varsity-level sex with new people, from performance anxiety. They do like varsity-level sex when everything clicks, but middle-aged women are also likely to enjoy that. I have a slim but otherwise unspectacular 42-year-old body, and I have been amazed by how generous men are with compliments.
Those of you saying: "I'm ...appalled at how women in regular porn are treated: I wouldn't want to be so treated" or "stupid ass-slapping and the facial" -- some of us like the stupid ass-slapping, and do want to be tied up and whipped, so please, just change the channel to something you like, don't bother telling me my desires are screwed up.
My experience with middle-aged men is that they have all the same insecurities that women do. They don't want to commit to varsity-level sex with new people, from performance anxiety. They do like varsity-level sex when everything clicks, but middle-aged women are also likely to enjoy that. I have a slim but otherwise unspectacular 42-year-old body, and I have been amazed by how generous men are with compliments.
Those of you saying: "I'm ...appalled at how women in regular porn are treated: I wouldn't want to be so treated" or "stupid ass-slapping and the facial" -- some of us like the stupid ass-slapping, and do want to be tied up and whipped, so please, just change the channel to something you like, don't bother telling me my desires are screwed up.
19
@13: I wholeheartedly agree. I've even got (sort of) an answer: part of parenting, and part of the maturing process is about realizing that any narrow depiction is not representative of the overall human condition. Documentaries about Everest climbers? Guess what, neither of us will (probably) ever do that. Interviews with Steven Hawking? We're not that smart.
Media that selects accurate samples is boring, because we all live that every day. From sex to athletics to adventurers, we are drawn to representations that are outside our everyday experience. Why would porn be any different than any other media representation that is selected for commercial appeal?
PS: As a man, I'm acutely aware of similar expectations. I'm supposed to have Daniel Craig's body, Jason Statham's toughness, George Clooney's charisma, Ron Jeremy's sexual prowess, Dr. Phil's emotional quotient, and Bill Gates' professional success. I deal with that by cultivating perspective, not bemoaning the fact that I'll never live up to media portrayals of masculinity.
Media that selects accurate samples is boring, because we all live that every day. From sex to athletics to adventurers, we are drawn to representations that are outside our everyday experience. Why would porn be any different than any other media representation that is selected for commercial appeal?
PS: As a man, I'm acutely aware of similar expectations. I'm supposed to have Daniel Craig's body, Jason Statham's toughness, George Clooney's charisma, Ron Jeremy's sexual prowess, Dr. Phil's emotional quotient, and Bill Gates' professional success. I deal with that by cultivating perspective, not bemoaning the fact that I'll never live up to media portrayals of masculinity.
20
Of course this anecdotal, but I have a hard time believing that people who are actually getting laid can also believe porn is a fair representation of sex. And regarding degradation, sex is all about power dynamics as Dan so often has to point out. Lots of guys like to be dominate in bed, and lots of women like to be submissive, and porn reflects this. ALSO, lots of men like to be submissive in bed, and lots of women like to be dominant, and there's plenty of porn for those people too.
21
@14, a good question, and I'm not a specialist, so half of what I'm saying is opinion and speculation, not solid research. But here it goes.
Environment-product/brand name is part of advertising, but by far not all. A lot has to do with playing with symbols and stereotypes ('you want to attract women? then use this perfume/aftershave/deodorant' -- which attracts even guys who don't use deodorant or fragrant aftershaves, as long as the idea 'smell good' = 'attract girls' does click with them). In other words, a lot of advertising has to do with convincing people not simply that this is the right brand to associate with this environment (football), but that we have something that will solve your problem, even that problem you thought couldn't be solved.
In the case of the beer-cum-football ad, who's to say that seeing people playing football in the beer ad doesn't make me (or some people) want to play football? The ad is centered on the beer (and being humans, we're quite sensitive to messages and how they're structured; we quickly understand what a message is about), and how good it will be for you to buy and drink it ('you'll be making that "aahh!" sound in no time!'). So most of the 'strength' of the ad is concentrated on the beer and how good it will make you feel. But I'm sure there are all kinds of other implications in the football-cum-beer ad (say, that football is a good thing, a lot of fun to play and watch, either at home with your friends or in the stadium itself) that we also get and that influence us.
The point I made about the ad is that the ad works, i.e., a short 30-second little movie about some product can be made in such a way that a sufficiently large percentage of the viewers will be more likely to buy the product in question than if they hadn't seen the ad. This would be impossible if images couldn't affect us and our desires in some way.
Porn, unlike ads, is not trying to convince you of anything; at least it wasn't made to convince you, but only to be sold to you (so that you can have a good time with it). But it is an image, and if images can influence us (as the fact that ads work show it can), then porn can also influence us -- not because it's porn, but because it's an image. So if one discerns a way in which porn is 'always making the same statement' -- if there's something that you see over and over again in porn, whether or not porn producers conscioulsy chose for it to be there -- it is conceivable that this feature will leave a mark, impress, or otherwise influence us in some way; again, not because it's porn, but because it's images and because we look at them sufficiently frequently.
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Environment-product/brand name is part of advertising, but by far not all. A lot has to do with playing with symbols and stereotypes ('you want to attract women? then use this perfume/aftershave/deodorant' -- which attracts even guys who don't use deodorant or fragrant aftershaves, as long as the idea 'smell good' = 'attract girls' does click with them). In other words, a lot of advertising has to do with convincing people not simply that this is the right brand to associate with this environment (football), but that we have something that will solve your problem, even that problem you thought couldn't be solved.
In the case of the beer-cum-football ad, who's to say that seeing people playing football in the beer ad doesn't make me (or some people) want to play football? The ad is centered on the beer (and being humans, we're quite sensitive to messages and how they're structured; we quickly understand what a message is about), and how good it will be for you to buy and drink it ('you'll be making that "aahh!" sound in no time!'). So most of the 'strength' of the ad is concentrated on the beer and how good it will make you feel. But I'm sure there are all kinds of other implications in the football-cum-beer ad (say, that football is a good thing, a lot of fun to play and watch, either at home with your friends or in the stadium itself) that we also get and that influence us.
The point I made about the ad is that the ad works, i.e., a short 30-second little movie about some product can be made in such a way that a sufficiently large percentage of the viewers will be more likely to buy the product in question than if they hadn't seen the ad. This would be impossible if images couldn't affect us and our desires in some way.
Porn, unlike ads, is not trying to convince you of anything; at least it wasn't made to convince you, but only to be sold to you (so that you can have a good time with it). But it is an image, and if images can influence us (as the fact that ads work show it can), then porn can also influence us -- not because it's porn, but because it's an image. So if one discerns a way in which porn is 'always making the same statement' -- if there's something that you see over and over again in porn, whether or not porn producers conscioulsy chose for it to be there -- it is conceivable that this feature will leave a mark, impress, or otherwise influence us in some way; again, not because it's porn, but because it's images and because we look at them sufficiently frequently.
24
@15 (ankylosaur):
I agree with everything you say. Funnily, I am and always have been virulently anti-Disney-Princess, much more so than I have been anti-porn (which has always been pretty much not at all).
I have issues with idealization. And gender expectations. And I am not sure why, but I see the Disney princesses, with their primary value being their feminine prettiness and in the case of the earlier ones, their passivity and the porn actresses who seem enthusiastic about every possible sexual act, even when no one is doing a thing to advance their physical pleasure through direct stimulation, as somehow two sides of the same coin.
It's heartening to read that you got over those unreal expectations fairly quickly, but if you'll pardon my saying this, you're not the norm, yourself. You're extremely intelligent and *analytical.* You're clearly not the kind of person who's going to be satisfied with conventional wisdom; you are inquisitive and rigorous in your attempt to understand something that interests you.
In other words, you're not part of that "great unwashed" that "also" thinks I'm talking about.
And without condescending to anyone, "also," or thinking that I am in position to tell the ignorant of the world what they should be thinking, a lot of people aren't going to question the conventional, accepted norms that are presented to them. They may obviously figure out for themselves that "all women aren't really like *that*," but they might never want to take the trouble to wonder why women are so often portrayed like *that,* and whether that portrayal is problematic in any way.
Ankylosaur, you mentioned "Don Quixote," but Jane Austen plays with a similar notion in Northanger Abbey, in which a young, naive girl expects life to be like a gothic novel. Fortunately for her, she gets provided with a suitor who guides and instructs her--showing her how life really is as he falls in love with her. Maybe we all need a Henry Tilney.
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I agree with everything you say. Funnily, I am and always have been virulently anti-Disney-Princess, much more so than I have been anti-porn (which has always been pretty much not at all).
I have issues with idealization. And gender expectations. And I am not sure why, but I see the Disney princesses, with their primary value being their feminine prettiness and in the case of the earlier ones, their passivity and the porn actresses who seem enthusiastic about every possible sexual act, even when no one is doing a thing to advance their physical pleasure through direct stimulation, as somehow two sides of the same coin.
It's heartening to read that you got over those unreal expectations fairly quickly, but if you'll pardon my saying this, you're not the norm, yourself. You're extremely intelligent and *analytical.* You're clearly not the kind of person who's going to be satisfied with conventional wisdom; you are inquisitive and rigorous in your attempt to understand something that interests you.
In other words, you're not part of that "great unwashed" that "also" thinks I'm talking about.
And without condescending to anyone, "also," or thinking that I am in position to tell the ignorant of the world what they should be thinking, a lot of people aren't going to question the conventional, accepted norms that are presented to them. They may obviously figure out for themselves that "all women aren't really like *that*," but they might never want to take the trouble to wonder why women are so often portrayed like *that,* and whether that portrayal is problematic in any way.
Ankylosaur, you mentioned "Don Quixote," but Jane Austen plays with a similar notion in Northanger Abbey, in which a young, naive girl expects life to be like a gothic novel. Fortunately for her, she gets provided with a suitor who guides and instructs her--showing her how life really is as he falls in love with her. Maybe we all need a Henry Tilney.
25
@19, I wholeheartedly agree as to expectations placed on masculinity, as the owner of a 43-year-old body who is far from having the level of attraction or 'hotness' that you find in most male TV stars. In defense of the ladies, though, I will say that the overall social pressure of stereotypes of femininity tends to be higher than that of stereotypes of masculinity, and female bodies are more frequently used than male bodies in the media and advertising (perhaps because men seem to, in average, have higher sex drives than women, so it's apparently more lucrative to appeal to men's reactions to female bodies than it is to appeal to women's reactions to male bodies).
But indeed, insecurity about one's own body and how a potential female partner is going to see it (taking into account the unrealistically good-looking guys you see in most Holywood movies) is not at all an unknown feeling to me.
But indeed, insecurity about one's own body and how a potential female partner is going to see it (taking into account the unrealistically good-looking guys you see in most Holywood movies) is not at all an unknown feeling to me.
26
@24(nocutename), I'm not a big fan of Disney princesses (or princes for that mather) either, though I have to deal with them on a daily basis, since they're on the wall, dancing around a pond, in my 8-year-old daughter's bedroom. (The relationship between her and said princesses, and between them and my wife, are also interesting to observe in themselves, I should add. Not entering into the details, I will say, though, that they are more, perhaps much more complicated than simply 'oooh, it's good to be pretty and chaste and passive'. After all, the same aforementioned daughter loves to play with toy guns of all kinds, pretending to be an action movie hero, without seeing in this any problem or contradiction with her Disney Princesses poster.)
I'm not sure I see any stronger connections between Disney princesses and Tera Patrick or Amber Lynn than I would see, say, between your average Disney prince charming and Ron Jeremy or John Holmes. Other than the fact that they're mostly one-dimensional characters following preset roles, I mean. Perhaps it seems to you that any cultural character with these features -- unidimensionality, stereotypical/repetitive behavior, etc. -- is contributing to the same flatland vision of society and people, thereby being two sides of the same coin? Does that sound possible to you?
Now, even though I understand what you're talking about when you say most people don't approach the world analytically, trying to see beyond the surface and with a critical mindset with respect to 'accepted truths'... still I don't think this justifies thinking that men react all in one way, or even most of them, to what they see in porn (or in action movies, or in horror movies, or in soap operas, or...). You don't have to be all scientific and deep to have a personality, to have some experience with life and let this experience allow you to see what's exaggerated and what's not in movies, in fact to understand that movies and fairy tales and children's books etc. are not adequate representations of reality.
In my native country (Brazil), there's a popular saying that 'in reality the story is always different', i.e. whatever you see in soap operas (very popular in Brazil, including among men) is not what you see in life. It's something everybody says, something well known to most if not all of the Brazilian great unwashed. Surely Americans are not any less deep? Surely even average, not-very-smart Americans understand that neither Cinderella nor Hot Nurses in Heat XXII is an accurate description of real life?
When you say most people are not analytical, I think you mean that they don't sit down and write long comments in discussion threads with lots of polysyllables and metaphors in them. And that's true: they don't. But it doesn't follow from that that they can't tell that movies and real life are far away from each other. You don't need so much to see that Allie McBeal was not a realistic depiction of the daily routine of a law firm, or The X Files an accurate account of FBI practices and protocols. I think most people can see that even about supposedly more 'realistic' TV Shows like The Office.
Of course there are naive people out there who think these shows are 'real' or that people are really 'just like that'. But if we don't have any stats (here, numbers are really necessary), why assume that they're the majority?
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I'm not sure I see any stronger connections between Disney princesses and Tera Patrick or Amber Lynn than I would see, say, between your average Disney prince charming and Ron Jeremy or John Holmes. Other than the fact that they're mostly one-dimensional characters following preset roles, I mean. Perhaps it seems to you that any cultural character with these features -- unidimensionality, stereotypical/repetitive behavior, etc. -- is contributing to the same flatland vision of society and people, thereby being two sides of the same coin? Does that sound possible to you?
Now, even though I understand what you're talking about when you say most people don't approach the world analytically, trying to see beyond the surface and with a critical mindset with respect to 'accepted truths'... still I don't think this justifies thinking that men react all in one way, or even most of them, to what they see in porn (or in action movies, or in horror movies, or in soap operas, or...). You don't have to be all scientific and deep to have a personality, to have some experience with life and let this experience allow you to see what's exaggerated and what's not in movies, in fact to understand that movies and fairy tales and children's books etc. are not adequate representations of reality.
In my native country (Brazil), there's a popular saying that 'in reality the story is always different', i.e. whatever you see in soap operas (very popular in Brazil, including among men) is not what you see in life. It's something everybody says, something well known to most if not all of the Brazilian great unwashed. Surely Americans are not any less deep? Surely even average, not-very-smart Americans understand that neither Cinderella nor Hot Nurses in Heat XXII is an accurate description of real life?
When you say most people are not analytical, I think you mean that they don't sit down and write long comments in discussion threads with lots of polysyllables and metaphors in them. And that's true: they don't. But it doesn't follow from that that they can't tell that movies and real life are far away from each other. You don't need so much to see that Allie McBeal was not a realistic depiction of the daily routine of a law firm, or The X Files an accurate account of FBI practices and protocols. I think most people can see that even about supposedly more 'realistic' TV Shows like The Office.
Of course there are naive people out there who think these shows are 'real' or that people are really 'just like that'. But if we don't have any stats (here, numbers are really necessary), why assume that they're the majority?
27
I would dare say that men's attitude toward women has substantially increased (by leaps and bounds, really) over the past 50 years--thanks to a certain second-wave movement of a certain gender's civil rights ideology. I would also dare say that access to porn has increased substantially (again, by leaps and bounds) over the past 50 years. I'm not saying these things are related, or even somehow tied together, but social scientists attempting to link porn with misogyny should be given pause by the coexistence of these two separate phenomena.
28
@21: I don't agree with your "if advertising can affect us, and if advertising is images, then all images can affect us" logic. You're going specific-general-specific, and that doesn't work. If Mike Tyson can kick my ass, and if Mike Tyson is a black man, then all black men can kick my ass. See the problem?
Your actual conclusion -- that watching porn can have psychological influence -- may be valid. Like the original article said, there really hasn't been research on the subject that didn't assume the influence and set out to prove it (not great scientific method). But you're going to need better logic than "advertising influences behavior, advertising is content, porn is also content,therefore porn influences behavior."
Your actual conclusion -- that watching porn can have psychological influence -- may be valid. Like the original article said, there really hasn't been research on the subject that didn't assume the influence and set out to prove it (not great scientific method). But you're going to need better logic than "advertising influences behavior, advertising is content, porn is also content,therefore porn influences behavior."
29
@28, ah, also, but you sneaked in an universal quantifier there that was not present in the original syllogism. I didn't say "advertising is images, advertising affects us, then all images affect us"; I said "advertising is images, advertising affects us, ergo, images can affect us." (I.e. I deny the negative "images never affect us".) And that is all that's necessary, because the possibility that porn may affect our tastes and expectations does not depend on the certainty that all images affect us. See the point?
I think that watching porn can have psychological influence, but again not because porn is porn, simply because porn is media, and media can have influence. We've all been influenced in one way or another by books we've read and movies and paintings and photos we've seen; assuming that porn might also influence us is simply claiming that porn is like all other media, in fact like all other art. (Art does influence people, by the way, doesn't it? And visual art is, after all, images.)
Note I'm not even claiming necessarily that porn does influence behavior -- I'm claiming that the idea that it might is not far-fetched, given the fact that we have other examples of content (advertising, art) influencing behavior. If porn has psychological influence, then it's no surprise, given that other content media do have this effect.
I think that watching porn can have psychological influence, but again not because porn is porn, simply because porn is media, and media can have influence. We've all been influenced in one way or another by books we've read and movies and paintings and photos we've seen; assuming that porn might also influence us is simply claiming that porn is like all other media, in fact like all other art. (Art does influence people, by the way, doesn't it? And visual art is, after all, images.)
Note I'm not even claiming necessarily that porn does influence behavior -- I'm claiming that the idea that it might is not far-fetched, given the fact that we have other examples of content (advertising, art) influencing behavior. If porn has psychological influence, then it's no surprise, given that other content media do have this effect.
30
@28, note also, by the way, that I'm not saying "influence" is a simplistic, do-A-and-get-result-B process. Influence in art and the media is often a complex process in which the viewer interacts with what is proposed to him/her in often unexpected ways. Images don't always have the influence that their very authors thought they would have. (Umberto Eco once proposed the term "semiotic guerilla" for the situation in which the influence a certain image or symbol was supposed to have is deliberately changed into something else, like the impact of Italian ads about household appliances as anti-communist propaganda in Albania before the end of communism).
Look, saying that porn influences people doesn't imply saying that it influences them badly, or that the influence is simplisitic and one-way. Both people and media are more complicated than that.
Look, saying that porn influences people doesn't imply saying that it influences them badly, or that the influence is simplisitic and one-way. Both people and media are more complicated than that.
31
Congratulations Flying Monkeys!
THIS JUST IN:
Cheerleader To Remain Off Squad Statement released by AHS Principal Lucy Munoz at 3 p.m. Monday: [OCTOBER 17]
The Alice I.S.D. has recently reviewed the recent removal of a student from the Alice High School Cheerleading Squad. After reviewing the Alice I.S.D. Student Code of Conduct and the Cheer Program Handbook, the removal will stay in effect. The student’s parents are in agreement with the district’s decision.
The student code of conduct and cheer handbook are designed to improve conduct and encourage students to adhere to their responsibilities as members of the school community. The student and parents are clearly aware that the student was not removed from the squad for kissing another student at school. While the student is free to discuss certain aspects of his discipline in the media, the District cannot discuss the specifics of this incident and must respect the privacy rights of the students involved in this matter.....
THIS JUST IN:
Cheerleader To Remain Off Squad Statement released by AHS Principal Lucy Munoz at 3 p.m. Monday: [OCTOBER 17]
The Alice I.S.D. has recently reviewed the recent removal of a student from the Alice High School Cheerleading Squad. After reviewing the Alice I.S.D. Student Code of Conduct and the Cheer Program Handbook, the removal will stay in effect. The student’s parents are in agreement with the district’s decision.
The student code of conduct and cheer handbook are designed to improve conduct and encourage students to adhere to their responsibilities as members of the school community. The student and parents are clearly aware that the student was not removed from the squad for kissing another student at school. While the student is free to discuss certain aspects of his discipline in the media, the District cannot discuss the specifics of this incident and must respect the privacy rights of the students involved in this matter.....
32
You people who have body image issues because of porn have body image issues because they're yours. Own up that they're yours. Don't blame the porn.
You people who have insecurities about what the other people expect...own them. Those insecurities are yours. You are overthinking things and the porn or the rom-coms aren't to blame. You are.
Yes there's an overt level of objectification in porn. It's PORN. There's just as much objectification happening in gay male porn as well. And, one could argue, that is also why there is as many body issues in gay male world as there are. Also, gay male porn has a significant streak of objectifying the receiver.
Though, this ignores the idea that men are far more visual creatures than women. Not that women aren't visual, but men have been shown to be more visually stimulated than women. So, of course, gay men and women feel the need to be attractive to attract the visually stimulated male. Lesbians and straight men feel pressure to be more emotionally attractive to the more emotionally stimulated female.
Is porn to blame for this? About as much as porn was responsible for Egyptians using makeup in the B.C. times. Or for the the original whores' rouge.
Also, is porn to blame for misogyny? About as much as porn was to blame for raping and pillaging by the Norse.
Seriously, people...get some historical perspective. Objectification of something a man desires is nothing new. Misogyny isn't new. Making things appealing to attract somebody isn't new. Porn is just a convenient scapegoat.
P.S. Kink has been around for ages as well...don't think you can blame that on porn either.
You people who have insecurities about what the other people expect...own them. Those insecurities are yours. You are overthinking things and the porn or the rom-coms aren't to blame. You are.
Yes there's an overt level of objectification in porn. It's PORN. There's just as much objectification happening in gay male porn as well. And, one could argue, that is also why there is as many body issues in gay male world as there are. Also, gay male porn has a significant streak of objectifying the receiver.
Though, this ignores the idea that men are far more visual creatures than women. Not that women aren't visual, but men have been shown to be more visually stimulated than women. So, of course, gay men and women feel the need to be attractive to attract the visually stimulated male. Lesbians and straight men feel pressure to be more emotionally attractive to the more emotionally stimulated female.
Is porn to blame for this? About as much as porn was responsible for Egyptians using makeup in the B.C. times. Or for the the original whores' rouge.
Also, is porn to blame for misogyny? About as much as porn was to blame for raping and pillaging by the Norse.
Seriously, people...get some historical perspective. Objectification of something a man desires is nothing new. Misogyny isn't new. Making things appealing to attract somebody isn't new. Porn is just a convenient scapegoat.
P.S. Kink has been around for ages as well...don't think you can blame that on porn either.
33
@30: Sorry if I mistakenly believed you were asserting that porn *does* influence behavior and/or beliefs. To the extent you're just saying it's possible, sure, I agree. I personally think that porn is comparable to action movies, pro sports, and Slog -- they reflect what is going on in society, may have some level of reinforcement, but ultimately don't make people do or believe anything they didn't before.
I would support and welcome real research on the subject, though.
I would support and welcome real research on the subject, though.
34
'Making pornography illegal' isn't the same thing as 'making pornography not widely available'.
There was an enormous pornography industry in Victorian times, for example.
There was an enormous pornography industry in Victorian times, for example.
35
I sort of wish that there was some way to make porn come with a warning label or user's guide or something-- I have a vivid memory as a highschooler of planning a date via IM with a boyfriend in hopes of some sloppy makeouts, and being virtually chased away by his huge library of possible sexual acts, something on the theme of:
"hey I'll buy a vibrator to use on you oh I'll buy condoms do you want me to get ribbed condoms I heard heating lube works really well maybe I'll get some towels in case you copiously female ejaculate everywhere I think we should do anal we should totally do anal I'll surprise you (!!!) hey do you want my dog to give you oral I have peanut butter" ...etc. etc.
In retrospect, it's essentially the same thing as any other nerd telling you about his DnD character or other interest in excruciating detail, but it would just be NICE if there was a way to go, "Hey 15-year-old boys, the stuff in this video is pretty high-level. Don't surprise your first girlfriend with two alligator clips and a car battery."
"hey I'll buy a vibrator to use on you oh I'll buy condoms do you want me to get ribbed condoms I heard heating lube works really well maybe I'll get some towels in case you copiously female ejaculate everywhere I think we should do anal we should totally do anal I'll surprise you (!!!) hey do you want my dog to give you oral I have peanut butter" ...etc. etc.
In retrospect, it's essentially the same thing as any other nerd telling you about his DnD character or other interest in excruciating detail, but it would just be NICE if there was a way to go, "Hey 15-year-old boys, the stuff in this video is pretty high-level. Don't surprise your first girlfriend with two alligator clips and a car battery."
36
@35 - looks like you served as the warning label, perhaps in combination with the next 3 women he tried that on and got nowhere with.
My own priority is to encourage women to figure out what they want and how to ask for it, rather than to shut down male sexual excitement.
My own priority is to encourage women to figure out what they want and how to ask for it, rather than to shut down male sexual excitement.
37
It's pretty funny seeing some supposed progressives contort and twist themselves into justifying their anti-porn bias even in the face of scientific evidence. It's really just puritanism. Because sex is evil and we have to make a special exception for it, but give it a progressive spin to keep up appearances. Think of the children, I mean... women!
38
I agree with #3. I don't think it's that simple. I hate standard porn and it's influence on men because of how it portrays woman as fuck bots that moan and jiggle at any thing that's done to them, most of which looks kinda painful. Based on my experience alot of the guys , the ones that grew up watching porn, were kinda rough and expected to be free to just do whatever they want with out asking me. They don't want to take the time to do what turns me on. They want to just rush thru foreplay, do just enough to pass so they can get to the hard fast fucking as soon as the get it in. And when I ask/demanded anything else, which was like a whole new concept, they would just be like okay yeah yeah and still rush to what they want anyway. It's the expectation that because they see women loving it in porn that real women want it that way too that bothers me. The few that weren't like that, didn't grow up on porn or watched very little. So based on my experience I don't like how standard porn has influenced mens views of women and how to treat them.
39
@37 & similars, you don't have to tell people their opinions are simplistic except if they actually are. I see a number of people posting comments that are quite nuanced and not at all naive here. Please: not everybody is an anti-porn crusader, you know? There are more opinions in the world...
40
enoneo, I'm going to guess that what the guys you mention had in common went beyond 'being brought up with porn'. Because, you see, even the guys who behaved in exactly the opposite ways were probably brought up with a lot of porn -- since nowadays it's quite widely available, y'know? I'm going to guess the guys you describe are simply assholes, and would be assholes even if they had never seen porn. The world (and America in particular) is full of crappy me-me guys (and gals) who think everybody else's purpose in life is to serve them. And I'll bet every guy who doesn't have a clue 'bout you wanting something else in bed are matched by the gals who expect their guys to do the usual stuff, know what I'm sayin'? And who get weird if he doesn't and start badmouthing him afterward.
Clueless assholes are a dime a dozen in all genders and colors. They thrive without porn, they thrive with porn, they just thrive.
Clueless assholes are a dime a dozen in all genders and colors. They thrive without porn, they thrive with porn, they just thrive.
41
@34 (Mr Hutchings), even though there was a significant (I wouldn't say "enormous"; that's more today) pornography industry existed in Victorian times, its existence and consumption were linked to a number of negative feelings, criminality, repression, etc. Not a healthy environment at all.
Except for the advertisement industry, that tries to throw their ads in your face (and when they use sex, then there goes the sex in your face), I don't think it's difficult to avoid porn if you want to. Actually, it's still the case that you have to actively look for it in order to find it; if you just do nothing no porn will come your way. Also, the fact that it's available doesn't mean you have to do it. Note that not only porn, but pretty much anything and any topic is widely available now with the internet. Online language courses are just as easy to google as porn (I have a Latvian for Beginners course open in another window right now). Nobody protests against that.
Except for the advertisement industry, that tries to throw their ads in your face (and when they use sex, then there goes the sex in your face), I don't think it's difficult to avoid porn if you want to. Actually, it's still the case that you have to actively look for it in order to find it; if you just do nothing no porn will come your way. Also, the fact that it's available doesn't mean you have to do it. Note that not only porn, but pretty much anything and any topic is widely available now with the internet. Online language courses are just as easy to google as porn (I have a Latvian for Beginners course open in another window right now). Nobody protests against that.
42
Have you seen this Danny?
Cheerleader To Remain Off Squad Statement released by AHS Principal Lucy Munoz at 3 p.m. Monday: [OCTOBER 17]
The Alice I.S.D. has recently reviewed the recent removal of a student from the Alice High School Cheerleading Squad. After reviewing the Alice I.S.D. Student Code of Conduct and the Cheer Program Handbook, the removal will stay in effect. The student’s parents are in agreement with the district’s decision.
The student code of conduct and cheer handbook are designed to improve conduct and encourage students to adhere to their responsibilities as members of the school community. THE STUDENT AND PARENTS ARE CLEARLY AWARE THAT THE STUDENT WAS NOT REMOVED FROM THE SQUAD FOR KISSING ANOTHER STUDENT AT SCHOOL......
Have you been punked again, Danny?
Is the "kissing cheerleader scandal" the Bigotry That NEVER Happened?
Is ANYTHING you ever post not 100% Bullshit LIES?
Cheerleader To Remain Off Squad Statement released by AHS Principal Lucy Munoz at 3 p.m. Monday: [OCTOBER 17]
The Alice I.S.D. has recently reviewed the recent removal of a student from the Alice High School Cheerleading Squad. After reviewing the Alice I.S.D. Student Code of Conduct and the Cheer Program Handbook, the removal will stay in effect. The student’s parents are in agreement with the district’s decision.
The student code of conduct and cheer handbook are designed to improve conduct and encourage students to adhere to their responsibilities as members of the school community. THE STUDENT AND PARENTS ARE CLEARLY AWARE THAT THE STUDENT WAS NOT REMOVED FROM THE SQUAD FOR KISSING ANOTHER STUDENT AT SCHOOL......
Have you been punked again, Danny?
Is the "kissing cheerleader scandal" the Bigotry That NEVER Happened?
Is ANYTHING you ever post not 100% Bullshit LIES?
43
@37 In my case it's not so much that I think sex is evil, as that I think male sexuality is a powerful force and needs to be carefully controlled and directed so that it doesn't hurt anybody. I think Dan once said that testosterone is like gasoline because it makes things go, but can also hurt you if your not careful. Maybe it was Dr Ruth who said that, but it's an apt metaphor regardless.
44
@41 I don't think any sane person wants to make porn illegal. The question is do we make it something that is socially acceptable? Guys are going to look at porn no matter what, but women can be educated to disapprove of porn or to look at it as no big deal. If a guy has to keep his porn stash carefully hidden from his wife/girlfriend he won't watch as much of it.
45
@43 Men get to direct their own sexuality, as long as they are not violating anyone, thank you very much.
@44 he won't watch as much ...and she won't know what turns him on.
@44 he won't watch as much ...and she won't know what turns him on.
46
men are objectified and degraded in standard straight porn, too, though maybe less explicitly. They are deduced to douche-y, hairless dicks ramming in and out of holes. Maybe I have seen way too much bad porn, but that seems to be the "standard." In general, I find porn pretty "meh," but when I'm in the mood for it, Kink.Com piques my interest.
"But oh noes! I must not be that into porn because I'm a woman and therefore less visual!" I'm SOOOO sick of hearing that. Maybe I'm just a woman with a man-brain, but I've been getting off on dirty visuals since I was five. Deal with it. I don't care about the studies. Just stop it.
"But oh noes! I must not be that into porn because I'm a woman and therefore less visual!" I'm SOOOO sick of hearing that. Maybe I'm just a woman with a man-brain, but I've been getting off on dirty visuals since I was five. Deal with it. I don't care about the studies. Just stop it.
47
I have to extend a big thank you to Erica for once again offering the voice of reason. Seriously, sweetie, you may just be my idol, ranking right up there with Tristan.
What a bunch of horseshit generalizations. Stupid ass slapping and facials--both things that I personally enjoy, along with many of the other things found in mainstream and quality porn. And as a woman, I'm not supposed to have a high sex drive. This is good to know, I'll get right to repression and telling myself that my desires are wrong.
What a bunch of horseshit generalizations. Stupid ass slapping and facials--both things that I personally enjoy, along with many of the other things found in mainstream and quality porn. And as a woman, I'm not supposed to have a high sex drive. This is good to know, I'll get right to repression and telling myself that my desires are wrong.
48
I was raised Mormon and I'm still partially active (a "social Mormon," if you will), and this has been something I've debated on the series of tubes. Porn is universally seen as BAD BAD BAD and that only the smallest percentage of depraved men (always men) view it. There's even camps/workshops where you can go discuss masturbation, with other men, in some kind of faux group therapy. ("It's okay if you're having gay thoughts, Elder McKinley"? :P )
All these devout Mormon guys automatically assume that being sexually objectified is bad (and there they would have common ground with some second-wave feminists). I don't mind being seen as an object of sexual desire in the right circumstances.
But the kind of stuff that's even at issue is so bantam weight compared to the most mild letter to Savage Love that it almost just becomes funny. "Porn" to us Utahns is like . . . photos of boobies. :P
All these devout Mormon guys automatically assume that being sexually objectified is bad (and there they would have common ground with some second-wave feminists). I don't mind being seen as an object of sexual desire in the right circumstances.
But the kind of stuff that's even at issue is so bantam weight compared to the most mild letter to Savage Love that it almost just becomes funny. "Porn" to us Utahns is like . . . photos of boobies. :P
50
@12, @17, @47:
Now that you mention it, I have yet to hook up with a woman who didn't appreciate a well-timed slap on the ass during sex.
I haven't had as much luck with the facials, though. Sigh.
Now that you mention it, I have yet to hook up with a woman who didn't appreciate a well-timed slap on the ass during sex.
I haven't had as much luck with the facials, though. Sigh.
51
"These researchers found mainstream porn to be largely free of violence and other degrading material."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!
I'm crying here.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!
I'm crying here.
53
@47 those people wouldn't like you any better as a repressed prude -- don't bother trying to please them. I like you just the way you are :-)
@50 make sure not to give facials to women wearing contacts -- burns like hell. Learned that this summer.
@52, maybe kersy wanted more violence and degradation?
@50 make sure not to give facials to women wearing contacts -- burns like hell. Learned that this summer.
@52, maybe kersy wanted more violence and degradation?
54
to ankylosaur, yes they were assholes in other ways to some degree or another. But the kind of sex that they wanted was the same, exactly like what's depicted in standard het porn - shove it in, go hard and fast to the finish line (theirs anyways). Now hard and fast is great but let a girl get warmd up first, and no shoving unless she wants it that way. They all wanted BJ on demand and would eat pussy but do a so so job and if it took more than 5 mins then they were "tired". They knew enough to say they loved to eat pussy and see a woman get off first but when it came down to it they really just wanted to experience what they've been jacking off to watching standard het porn, which is not benifical to women. It's not so much the kind of sex they wanted it's that they are oblivious to the concept that women are real live beings and not fuck toys. So when you tell them, " I want it like this" or "ow that hurts" they'll try for a minute but quickly default back to what suits them because their acting under the assumption that it's okay for a man to fuck like that because women are just a fuck toys.
Now days there is alot more variety in porn and I am all for freedom of expression not matter what. It's just that most of the het porn available is not realistic, women do not constantly orgasm when you shove/jab a dick, dong, or long fingernails into their pussy/ass. Women don't have to have DD and 25" waist to be sexy. Based on my experience porn has undoubtly affected mens perception and expectations of women and sex. Not all men!!
BTW - a couple of my past lovers that didn't grow up consuming porn, were great and GGG lovers but still selfish asshole in other areas of the relationship, so your point doesn't hold up. And yes selfish asshole come in all sexes, shapes, sizes and colors, I am the last person you need to enlighten on that.
And may I ask ankylosaur, are you male or female?
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Now days there is alot more variety in porn and I am all for freedom of expression not matter what. It's just that most of the het porn available is not realistic, women do not constantly orgasm when you shove/jab a dick, dong, or long fingernails into their pussy/ass. Women don't have to have DD and 25" waist to be sexy. Based on my experience porn has undoubtly affected mens perception and expectations of women and sex. Not all men!!
BTW - a couple of my past lovers that didn't grow up consuming porn, were great and GGG lovers but still selfish asshole in other areas of the relationship, so your point doesn't hold up. And yes selfish asshole come in all sexes, shapes, sizes and colors, I am the last person you need to enlighten on that.
And may I ask ankylosaur, are you male or female?
55
@54 (enoneo), but you sidestep the question of causality / directionality: did they want mainstream sex (which is basically P-in-V, get your jollies, go to sleep -- that is tradition, believe me, the wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am was king way, way before Playboy appeared) because they saw it in porn, or does porn show it because so many assholes want it?
Do you think men thought girls needed to warm up before, when their first contact with the mere idea of normal sex was whispered exaggerations exchanged with 'knowledgeable' schoolmates during recess?
Do you think they wouldn't have imagined all kinds of stupid things to jack off to -- they'd be more naive, of course, but they'd be just as stupid -- if they hadn't watched any porn?
To think that assholes wouldn't be assholes is like thinking that nerds wouldn't be nerds if there were no computers. I'm sorry, but in the list of frequent things you saw in these asshole guys there isn't a single one that wasn't already horribly frequent before porn. If you think sex was any less formulaic and "you're-supposed-to-do-this-when-I-do-that-and-that's-it" in the minds of most asshole men before porn, then I suggest you talk to your grandmother about that. (With the added plus that what we now call "asshole sex" was supposed to be right, good sex. Again, ask your grandmother.)
Most of the porn available is not realistic. Most of the sports movies available are not realistic. Most of the war movies available are not realistic. Most of the romantic comedies available are not realistic. I know that, enoneo. Anyone worth your sexual efforts should know that, too, i.e., should know that life is not as shown in the movies. Of course there are assholes and naive guys/gals who nagivate life with only ideas taken from movies, but these are people to avoid, not to befriend.
I don't blame porn any more than I blame romantic comedies and sitcoms for being silly -- I blame people who think that porn, or romantic comedies and sitcoms show what people are really like and how they want to be treated, instead of being, as they are, simply fantasies to masturbate to or funny situations to laugh about.
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Do you think men thought girls needed to warm up before, when their first contact with the mere idea of normal sex was whispered exaggerations exchanged with 'knowledgeable' schoolmates during recess?
Do you think they wouldn't have imagined all kinds of stupid things to jack off to -- they'd be more naive, of course, but they'd be just as stupid -- if they hadn't watched any porn?
To think that assholes wouldn't be assholes is like thinking that nerds wouldn't be nerds if there were no computers. I'm sorry, but in the list of frequent things you saw in these asshole guys there isn't a single one that wasn't already horribly frequent before porn. If you think sex was any less formulaic and "you're-supposed-to-do-this-when-I-do-that-and-that's-it" in the minds of most asshole men before porn, then I suggest you talk to your grandmother about that. (With the added plus that what we now call "asshole sex" was supposed to be right, good sex. Again, ask your grandmother.)
Most of the porn available is not realistic. Most of the sports movies available are not realistic. Most of the war movies available are not realistic. Most of the romantic comedies available are not realistic. I know that, enoneo. Anyone worth your sexual efforts should know that, too, i.e., should know that life is not as shown in the movies. Of course there are assholes and naive guys/gals who nagivate life with only ideas taken from movies, but these are people to avoid, not to befriend.
I don't blame porn any more than I blame romantic comedies and sitcoms for being silly -- I blame people who think that porn, or romantic comedies and sitcoms show what people are really like and how they want to be treated, instead of being, as they are, simply fantasies to masturbate to or funny situations to laugh about.
56
I think I sort of want more explanation, and less anger (not that I see the anger here) when discussing porn. I hear the word "objectifying" thrown around a lot - turning a person into a thing. But I still don't understand what that means exactly. I mean... people have a "thingness" to them don't we? We are not inanimate, but neither are we intangible.
It seems like angry people want to use "objectifying" to explain things, but, at least for me, it only says "I'm angry about porn."
It seems like angry people want to use "objectifying" to explain things, but, at least for me, it only says "I'm angry about porn."
57
@EricaP, I've often wondered if the anti-porn gang that talks about 'humiliation' and 'degradation' aren't in many ways just repeating the old discourse of sex in itself as inherently 'dirty' and 'animal' and 'degrading', except they've changed the boundaries now so that some forms of sex are inherently OK and nice. There always was some form of OK sex even in the most puritanical societies, but people spent much more time thinking about what forms of sex should be punished and in finding rationales for why that should be the case. 'Sex is bad' has now become 'this kind of sex is (inherently, independently of consent) bad.' In other words, it is an utterly conservative view, even when it is sported by people who consider themselves extreme left.
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@56, the story of "objectification" as a bad word is I think a phenomenon of American history. The basic rationale is that when you "objectify" someone you forget that this person is really a person and completely forget about his/her feelings, thoughts, desires and think only of him/her as something you can use to satisfy yourself.
The idea would be that a porn photo of, say, a naked girl smiling with her legs spread open and a come-fuck-me expression in her face would be inviting you -- in fact programming you -- to forget that this is a real person, with opinions, desires (sexual and otherwise), knowledge, a life story, feelings, fears, etc. The picture would be inviting -- or programming -- you not to feel respect for her, not to give her any human dignity.
Of course that is an obvious non-sequitur: it is baffling to think that sex photos would immediately lead to the conclusion that the people in the photos are only good for sex and nothing else. Personally, I think conservative people tended to this conclusion because they do see sex as inherently degrading, so if a woman is shown in a sexual picture the presence of 'sex' in the equation is degrading to her. Something like 'you don't respect people you have sex with (because sex is dirty and degrading, like taking hard drugs), and this photo shows a woman who apparently wants to have sex with you; ergo, you don't respect her.'
The very person looking at the photo can agree with this vision of the situation. In a sexually repressive society that condemns porn (as 'the work of the devil', etc.), someone who uses it will probably feel ashamed and inferior, a bit like an alcoholic or someone with a gambling problem, and he'll project his shame and self-hatred on the people in the picture. "It's not me who is despicable and shameful, it's these people in the photo that made me want to do this! Damn them!"
It's all very sad, and so utterly unnecessary.
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The idea would be that a porn photo of, say, a naked girl smiling with her legs spread open and a come-fuck-me expression in her face would be inviting you -- in fact programming you -- to forget that this is a real person, with opinions, desires (sexual and otherwise), knowledge, a life story, feelings, fears, etc. The picture would be inviting -- or programming -- you not to feel respect for her, not to give her any human dignity.
Of course that is an obvious non-sequitur: it is baffling to think that sex photos would immediately lead to the conclusion that the people in the photos are only good for sex and nothing else. Personally, I think conservative people tended to this conclusion because they do see sex as inherently degrading, so if a woman is shown in a sexual picture the presence of 'sex' in the equation is degrading to her. Something like 'you don't respect people you have sex with (because sex is dirty and degrading, like taking hard drugs), and this photo shows a woman who apparently wants to have sex with you; ergo, you don't respect her.'
The very person looking at the photo can agree with this vision of the situation. In a sexually repressive society that condemns porn (as 'the work of the devil', etc.), someone who uses it will probably feel ashamed and inferior, a bit like an alcoholic or someone with a gambling problem, and he'll project his shame and self-hatred on the people in the picture. "It's not me who is despicable and shameful, it's these people in the photo that made me want to do this! Damn them!"
It's all very sad, and so utterly unnecessary.
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@57 I think the anti-facials gang (where facials are shorthand for all that stuff) agree that some fraction, say 1% of women, like facials, and so it's ok to have occasional porn with that imagery. But if they run across it themselves, then clearly there's too much of it -- people should have to dig for such degrading, abusive porn; it shouldn't be right there in your face, corrupting boys who might otherwise have never imagined facials.
Now, as you say @41, it's quite easy to avoid porn all together. And it's easy to see only porn without facials -- stick to Playboy. But if you're going to go wandering through the forests of porn, yes, you'll run into scary facials. Because people like to see them.
But, to respond to you @58, I think that applies to most of us, like it or not. A lot of the thrill of sex is from seeing it as dirty, nasty, & taboo. Hard for me to even imagine some kind of Brave New World where people have sex as good clean sport. I had sex at a sex club last weekend, but I had to face away from the onlookers; I couldn't look them in the eye. Was that because I was really ashamed of what I was doing, or playing with the idea of being ashamed, degraded... I couldn't tell you. It felt real, but it turned me on... As a good man once said: "Life is dangerous, and one should always keep one's eyes open." (Metaphorically, at least :-)
Now, as you say @41, it's quite easy to avoid porn all together. And it's easy to see only porn without facials -- stick to Playboy. But if you're going to go wandering through the forests of porn, yes, you'll run into scary facials. Because people like to see them.
But, to respond to you @58, I think that applies to most of us, like it or not. A lot of the thrill of sex is from seeing it as dirty, nasty, & taboo. Hard for me to even imagine some kind of Brave New World where people have sex as good clean sport. I had sex at a sex club last weekend, but I had to face away from the onlookers; I couldn't look them in the eye. Was that because I was really ashamed of what I was doing, or playing with the idea of being ashamed, degraded... I couldn't tell you. It felt real, but it turned me on... As a good man once said: "Life is dangerous, and one should always keep one's eyes open." (Metaphorically, at least :-)
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@55 I don't have time to write a well-thought out answer, but to address your position that porn has never changed anything, and that bad lovers are just bad lovers.... One thing that is specifically different because of porn is that now it is almost totally unacceptable for an adult woman to have any hair on her body. If you want to know whether or not porn affects men's expectations of women, there is your answer. If I have a random hook up, I get a lecture on how I am 'supposed' to wax, and I would say 60-70% say it is a deal breaker for future meetings if I don't shave or wax. That is explicitly due to the hairlessness in porn, and I am not 'asked' to shave, I am commanded to do so.
So, no, not all porn is bad, but YES it affects how men view and treat women. Before porny ladies started waxing, I was allowed (even expected!) to look like an adult. Now, I am not.
You are being very simplistic in your view that, to reiterate @8, that nothing we watch affects us. Every time you turn on a screen you are being influenced. Women were being treated like shit long before there was porn, so (some) porn treats women like shit. Just because you like it doesn't make it right.
So, no, not all porn is bad, but YES it affects how men view and treat women. Before porny ladies started waxing, I was allowed (even expected!) to look like an adult. Now, I am not.
You are being very simplistic in your view that, to reiterate @8, that nothing we watch affects us. Every time you turn on a screen you are being influenced. Women were being treated like shit long before there was porn, so (some) porn treats women like shit. Just because you like it doesn't make it right.
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@60 - If someone phrases it as a command, rather than a polite request (outside the context of D/s play), why would you care about having a future meeting with that person? Stand up for yourself and you'll meet men who respect that. I think the shaving trend correlates just as strongly with the increased expectation of cunnilingus as with porn fashions.
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@60 EricaP - I reread what I wrote and it does sound like I mean that I would want these douchebags again -- I don't put up with that shit, and if he refuses oral while we are having playtime, playtime is over. I have no problems sticking up for myself, and if I did, I would probably just shave to avoid the inevitable confrontation.
I meant that that is the #1 topic of conversation with new lovers. It isn't that he wants to spank me and come on my face and I don't like that (certainly I've had that conversation, but it isn't usually a dealbreaker), it is that it is my duty as a woman to remove it all for his pleasure. My opinion on the matter is irrelevant, that is just the way it is.
I meant that that is the #1 topic of conversation with new lovers. It isn't that he wants to spank me and come on my face and I don't like that (certainly I've had that conversation, but it isn't usually a dealbreaker), it is that it is my duty as a woman to remove it all for his pleasure. My opinion on the matter is irrelevant, that is just the way it is.
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@52 I'm crying from laughing so hard at such an utterly bullshit claim.
I watch mainstream porn and it is 99% of the time a man jerking off into a hole that happens to be attached to a woman.
I watch mainstream porn and it is 99% of the time a man jerking off into a hole that happens to be attached to a woman.
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I came on to say basically what #60 said. Porn has definitely had an influence on what people find sexy on an aesthetic level. Fake boobs, hairless bodies, sorority girls, etc...The stuff that gets played out over and over again in porn fantasies does tend to create a sexual fantasy where there may not have been one before.
I'm even super turned on by porn girls, and I'm a straight girl who isn't attracted to "regular" women at all.
I'm even super turned on by porn girls, and I'm a straight girl who isn't attracted to "regular" women at all.
65
@63 Because you've watched ALL the porn.
Tell me you're being sarcastic. Right?
#43 In my case it's not so much that I think sex is evil, as that I think male sexuality is a powerful force and needs to be carefully controlled and directed so that it doesn't hurt anybody.
Tell me you're being sarcastic. Right?
66
One thing that is specifically different because of porn is that now it is almost totally unacceptable for an adult woman to have any hair on her body.
lol Roman women shaved their pubes 2000 years ago.
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Ms Erica - More power to you, though I'm just the opposite. I couldn't do dirty, nasty or taboo if I tried; it would make me cramp. Of course, these days, so many more things are making me cramp, it may soon be a moot point.
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Ms Cute - Excellent selection of Catherine Morland for your example. I'll spare the assembled company an analysis of Henry Tilney.
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@67 I have days like that too -- but until all my days are like that, I'm going to keep on keeping on :-)
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@68 (Venominon): I once wrote an analysis of Henry Tilney that I was rather pleased with. He is one of Austen's more slippery heroes.
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@59 Erica,
You should always keep your eyes open...except when getting a facial.
Part of me wants to state that watching when you could be doing is superfluous, but that is in my case. My wife has never been excited by video porn, only written, so as a couple it has almost no place in influencing our sex life (or expectations). I'm old enough that video porn wasn't universally available before I started having sex. I have gone through spates of watching lots of porn, but only because the women had certain body types that I find attractive. I can't stand to watch the stuff that is even moderately degrading to an unwilling subject. My point, porn hasn't affected me in altering my expectations or performance. My only facial was by accident, and I still feel bad about it for hitting her in the eye.
If we want to mention objectionable video that has negative effects, then I vote for mainstream commercials aimed at preteens. I wouldn't even let my kids watch the Disney channel because of the ads. Just watch that shit with an eye for hypersexualizing stimuli, keeping in mind the target audience is below 10 in many cases. Am I going too far in equating teen fuck videos with ads that glorify sexuality inappropriately to children?
Peace.
You should always keep your eyes open...except when getting a facial.
Part of me wants to state that watching when you could be doing is superfluous, but that is in my case. My wife has never been excited by video porn, only written, so as a couple it has almost no place in influencing our sex life (or expectations). I'm old enough that video porn wasn't universally available before I started having sex. I have gone through spates of watching lots of porn, but only because the women had certain body types that I find attractive. I can't stand to watch the stuff that is even moderately degrading to an unwilling subject. My point, porn hasn't affected me in altering my expectations or performance. My only facial was by accident, and I still feel bad about it for hitting her in the eye.
If we want to mention objectionable video that has negative effects, then I vote for mainstream commercials aimed at preteens. I wouldn't even let my kids watch the Disney channel because of the ads. Just watch that shit with an eye for hypersexualizing stimuli, keeping in mind the target audience is below 10 in many cases. Am I going too far in equating teen fuck videos with ads that glorify sexuality inappropriately to children?
Peace.
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@65 All porn is not mainstream porn. Yes, there is feminist porn that doesn't make me feel like shit after I jill off to it. It is not mainstream.
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Ms Cute - Slippery is an interesting word. I've tended to think that, as an early effort, he just got lost in the shuffle a bit, perhaps in the end split as it were, in the main partly becoming Edmund Bertram and partly Frank Churchill, though there are smaller traces in others.
But I stand indebted to HT, who is given a liberty that future heroes are denied in what he is permitted to say, so that he provides two of my favourite quotations from the novel:
"The style of letter-writing among women is faultless, except in three particulars... a general deficiency of subject, a total inattention to stops, and a very frequent ignorance of grammar." and
"Nobody thinks more highly of the understanding of women than I do. In my opinion, nature has given them so much that they never find it necessary to use more than half."
The only annoying thing is that these quotations are hard to set up for general use without lots of context. I am, though, occasionally tempted to change women for men and drop the latter quote at a feminist site just to see what people say.
Amazingly, I shall stop now and avoid going off into other Austenian waters.
But I stand indebted to HT, who is given a liberty that future heroes are denied in what he is permitted to say, so that he provides two of my favourite quotations from the novel:
"The style of letter-writing among women is faultless, except in three particulars... a general deficiency of subject, a total inattention to stops, and a very frequent ignorance of grammar." and
"Nobody thinks more highly of the understanding of women than I do. In my opinion, nature has given them so much that they never find it necessary to use more than half."
The only annoying thing is that these quotations are hard to set up for general use without lots of context. I am, though, occasionally tempted to change women for men and drop the latter quote at a feminist site just to see what people say.
Amazingly, I shall stop now and avoid going off into other Austenian waters.
74
17/Erica: I'm with ankylosaur and the others saying that most men (and women) understand that culture (porn, movies, romance novels) represents fantasy, not real life.
Count me in too.
My experience with middle-aged men is that they have all the same insecurities that women do.
You might be right. However, even if we don't have the same insecurities, we definitely have insecurities. But we tend to keep them to ourselves.
I have a slim but otherwise unspectacular 42-year-old body, and I have been amazed by how generous men are with compliments.
Glad to hear it. Most men aren't attracted to women who are fat, but that doesn't mean we expect to sleep with models. I think most of us are thrilled to be with a woman who has a reasonably fit body, is sexy, and is open-minded. (Likewise, women aren't attracted to men who are poor but that doesn't mean they expect to date men who are rich.)
I liked all your posts on this topic, Erica. I think you have a very good understanding of men in general and male sexuality in particular. I loved this @ 36: My own priority is to encourage women to figure out what they want and how to ask for it, rather than to shut down male sexual excitement.
Thank you.
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19/also, great post. Thank you for pointing out that women have expectations of men as well. I really liked your "I deal with [those expectations] by cultivating perspective, not bemoaning the fact that I'll never live up to media portrayals of masculinity.
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20/OuterCow, Of course this anecdotal, but I have a hard time believing that people who are actually getting laid can also believe porn is a fair representation of sex.
Same here. I can understand someone who's never had sex thinking that women are like women in porn but after sleeping with even a couple women, I'd think he'd quickly get schooled.
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38/enoneo: They don't want to take the time to do what turns me on. They want to just rush thru foreplay, do just enough to pass so they can get to the hard fast fucking as soon as the get it in. And when I ask/demanded anything else, which was like a whole new concept, they would just be like okay yeah yeah and still rush to what they want anyway.
Hopefully, you don't sleep with any of these guys a second time. If I were a woman and was with a man who didn't care about my pleasure, there wouldn't even be a first time because I'd kick his selfish ass out of bed.
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Count me in too.
My experience with middle-aged men is that they have all the same insecurities that women do.
You might be right. However, even if we don't have the same insecurities, we definitely have insecurities. But we tend to keep them to ourselves.
I have a slim but otherwise unspectacular 42-year-old body, and I have been amazed by how generous men are with compliments.
Glad to hear it. Most men aren't attracted to women who are fat, but that doesn't mean we expect to sleep with models. I think most of us are thrilled to be with a woman who has a reasonably fit body, is sexy, and is open-minded. (Likewise, women aren't attracted to men who are poor but that doesn't mean they expect to date men who are rich.)
I liked all your posts on this topic, Erica. I think you have a very good understanding of men in general and male sexuality in particular. I loved this @ 36: My own priority is to encourage women to figure out what they want and how to ask for it, rather than to shut down male sexual excitement.
Thank you.
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19/also, great post. Thank you for pointing out that women have expectations of men as well. I really liked your "I deal with [those expectations] by cultivating perspective, not bemoaning the fact that I'll never live up to media portrayals of masculinity.
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20/OuterCow, Of course this anecdotal, but I have a hard time believing that people who are actually getting laid can also believe porn is a fair representation of sex.
Same here. I can understand someone who's never had sex thinking that women are like women in porn but after sleeping with even a couple women, I'd think he'd quickly get schooled.
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38/enoneo: They don't want to take the time to do what turns me on. They want to just rush thru foreplay, do just enough to pass so they can get to the hard fast fucking as soon as the get it in. And when I ask/demanded anything else, which was like a whole new concept, they would just be like okay yeah yeah and still rush to what they want anyway.
Hopefully, you don't sleep with any of these guys a second time. If I were a woman and was with a man who didn't care about my pleasure, there wouldn't even be a first time because I'd kick his selfish ass out of bed.
76
@74 Thanks for the warm response :-)
>> We definitely have insecurities. But we tend to keep them to ourselves. >>
Some do. Others can't shut up about their height-issues, their length-issues, their hair-issues... Word to the wise: keeping it to yourself is definitely sexier.
>> We definitely have insecurities. But we tend to keep them to ourselves. >>
Some do. Others can't shut up about their height-issues, their length-issues, their hair-issues... Word to the wise: keeping it to yourself is definitely sexier.
77
Porn ain't what it used to be. 24/7 access to endless variety....it's a game-changer, and we don't know what the effects will be. I'm, like, the queen of sex-positive land, and I'm concerned. I talk to my girlfriends, and I'm not alone.
The claim that most porn isn't violent or degrading is ABSURD. You may believe that your super-strong mind can take repeated exposure to these images of women combined with massive dopamine reward and not be affected. I doubt it, and at some point I stopped watching it, just like I stopped eating fast food. I'm a grown-up and I care about my health, mental and physical. Given the videos on xtube and the continuing popularity of McDonald's, I don't have much faith in those unwashed masses to look out for themselves.
I'm a huge Savage fan, but I finally had to realize that he's a gay man, and as such, is in a different universe when he watches porn. He can't see hetero porn through female eyes. He just can't. He has demonstrated that his empathy doesn't stretch that far. I don't hold it against him, but I do ignore what he says about it.
The claim that most porn isn't violent or degrading is ABSURD. You may believe that your super-strong mind can take repeated exposure to these images of women combined with massive dopamine reward and not be affected. I doubt it, and at some point I stopped watching it, just like I stopped eating fast food. I'm a grown-up and I care about my health, mental and physical. Given the videos on xtube and the continuing popularity of McDonald's, I don't have much faith in those unwashed masses to look out for themselves.
I'm a huge Savage fan, but I finally had to realize that he's a gay man, and as such, is in a different universe when he watches porn. He can't see hetero porn through female eyes. He just can't. He has demonstrated that his empathy doesn't stretch that far. I don't hold it against him, but I do ignore what he says about it.
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@77 - don't watch porn that you don't like. It's that simple. Guys don't watch porn that they don't like. Why should you? But guys do watch porn that they do like. If that happens to involve BDSM, or facials, or whatever-is-in-your-nightmare, that's because it scratches an itch they already had.
If a guy treats you badly, walk away. Don't watch porn you don't like, and don't stay with an asshole. But why would you think that porn makes him treat you badly? There is no evidence to support that idea.
If a guy treats you badly, walk away. Don't watch porn you don't like, and don't stay with an asshole. But why would you think that porn makes him treat you badly? There is no evidence to support that idea.
80
@77
And despite the last five decades of increased access to pornography - increased exponentially I might add - violence to women is trending down. In fact sexual violence is lowest and women have greater economic equality in the societies with most permissive sexual attitudes and even MORE access to pornography.
But don't listen to any facts, studies or evidence. Instead rely on the anecdotes of your friends and your finely tuned and impartial gut instincts.
After all as history has shown "gut instinct" and anecdote are always great beginnings to healthy public polices.
I think of the anti-vaccination and Global Warming denier movements. Go with the gut!
And despite the last five decades of increased access to pornography - increased exponentially I might add - violence to women is trending down. In fact sexual violence is lowest and women have greater economic equality in the societies with most permissive sexual attitudes and even MORE access to pornography.
But don't listen to any facts, studies or evidence. Instead rely on the anecdotes of your friends and your finely tuned and impartial gut instincts.
After all as history has shown "gut instinct" and anecdote are always great beginnings to healthy public polices.
I think of the anti-vaccination and Global Warming denier movements. Go with the gut!
81
@78 I don't think it's that simple Erica. Something can be pleasurable in the moment but have negative long term consequences. Is it possible that excessive pornography consumption makes it more difficult for men to form meaningful intimate relationships? I don't know. I definitely think that easy access to unlimited amounts of casual sex makes it more difficult for gay guys to form committed loving relationships. Could easy access to unlimited porn do do the same thing to straight guys?
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@81 Any evidence for that claim? Any evidence that it's not homophobia and internalized homophobia that makes it "more difficult for gay guys to form committed loving relationships"? Or the fact that our view of "committed loving relationships" is shaped by what we've been culturally taught to expect (ie, monogamy)?
Until and unless anyone has any evidence to support the claim that porn is not being used safely by the people who choose to use it, I'm going to stick with Professor Catherine Lumby and colleagues, who published The Porn Report in 2008, showing no evidence of harm from watching porn. As is laid out in the article in Dan's link.
Until and unless anyone has any evidence to support the claim that porn is not being used safely by the people who choose to use it, I'm going to stick with Professor Catherine Lumby and colleagues, who published The Porn Report in 2008, showing no evidence of harm from watching porn. As is laid out in the article in Dan's link.
83
@78/80:
I think you're making a lot of assumptions about me and my concerns.
There is evidence that porn may be problematic. You're getting all of your data from sources, from a culture, that has decided that porn is good! and healthy! and fun!, and which is super threatened and offended by anybody who suggests that you take a deep breath and LOOK at what has become of porn, and LOOK at the difference in access, and THINK about how things are different and what that might mean.
You have no idea how hard it has been for me to start to look at this myself. I am young, urban, queer, and kinky with the scars to prove it. There is a code of conduct for women like me, which goes something like this: if everybody is a consenting adult, then sex is good, period. Nothing about sex can be bad for you, because, as we know, sex is good. SEX IS GOOD. PERIOD. SHUT UP AND FUCK.
It's a reaction to a sex-negative culture, and to a type of feminism that we don't identify with, and I get it. I've embodied it. I've yelled it from soapboxes. Blah blah blah.
But I'm also a biology nerd headed for med school, and as an undergrad I studied a lot of philosophy of mind and ethics, and I'm a person who has been in lots of intimate relationships of various kinds, and I'm a painfully aware woman in our culture who hit 30 and started to go, "hey, wait. . . this isn't ok."
I guess I am just here to say that I'm a smart, thoughtful, progressive, sex-positive woman. And I am WORRIED ABOUT PORN. I am worried about how it affects women, and I am worried about how it affects men, and I am worried how it affects relationships between women and men. Data which predates about 2005 is not relevant to what is happening now. Now is different. Maybe now is fine. But I'm not so sure. And I'm not the only one.
We'll see.
More...
I think you're making a lot of assumptions about me and my concerns.
There is evidence that porn may be problematic. You're getting all of your data from sources, from a culture, that has decided that porn is good! and healthy! and fun!, and which is super threatened and offended by anybody who suggests that you take a deep breath and LOOK at what has become of porn, and LOOK at the difference in access, and THINK about how things are different and what that might mean.
You have no idea how hard it has been for me to start to look at this myself. I am young, urban, queer, and kinky with the scars to prove it. There is a code of conduct for women like me, which goes something like this: if everybody is a consenting adult, then sex is good, period. Nothing about sex can be bad for you, because, as we know, sex is good. SEX IS GOOD. PERIOD. SHUT UP AND FUCK.
It's a reaction to a sex-negative culture, and to a type of feminism that we don't identify with, and I get it. I've embodied it. I've yelled it from soapboxes. Blah blah blah.
But I'm also a biology nerd headed for med school, and as an undergrad I studied a lot of philosophy of mind and ethics, and I'm a person who has been in lots of intimate relationships of various kinds, and I'm a painfully aware woman in our culture who hit 30 and started to go, "hey, wait. . . this isn't ok."
I guess I am just here to say that I'm a smart, thoughtful, progressive, sex-positive woman. And I am WORRIED ABOUT PORN. I am worried about how it affects women, and I am worried about how it affects men, and I am worried how it affects relationships between women and men. Data which predates about 2005 is not relevant to what is happening now. Now is different. Maybe now is fine. But I'm not so sure. And I'm not the only one.
We'll see.
85
You're welcome, Erica.
Word to the wise: keeping [insecurities] to yourself is definitely sexier.
That's one of the reasons right there why men tend to keep them to themselves. I'm not saying that men find it sexy if women talk about their insecurities but I believe that men are much more willing to accept women expressing them (or just having them) than women are with men. I think a lot of (perhaps most?) women are turned off by a man who shows any kind of weakness.
I just finished reading a great book, Self-Made Man, by Norah Vincent. Vincent, a NYC journalist (and a lesbian) became "Ned" Vincent for about a year, hanging out with men and going on dates with women. She came to understand the expectations on men to not show any weakness or vulnerability and mentions how, although she expected the women she dated to want men who were sensitive, almost all of them wanted stoic manly men.
Word to the wise: keeping [insecurities] to yourself is definitely sexier.
That's one of the reasons right there why men tend to keep them to themselves. I'm not saying that men find it sexy if women talk about their insecurities but I believe that men are much more willing to accept women expressing them (or just having them) than women are with men. I think a lot of (perhaps most?) women are turned off by a man who shows any kind of weakness.
I just finished reading a great book, Self-Made Man, by Norah Vincent. Vincent, a NYC journalist (and a lesbian) became "Ned" Vincent for about a year, hanging out with men and going on dates with women. She came to understand the expectations on men to not show any weakness or vulnerability and mentions how, although she expected the women she dated to want men who were sensitive, almost all of them wanted stoic manly men.
86
81/Ken, Is it possible that excessive pornography consumption makes it more difficult for men to form meaningful intimate relationships? I don't know.
"I don't know": one of the rarest things you ever see someone say on a blog or internet forum. Good for you, Ken.
I think it's entirely possible that excessive pornography consumption makes it more difficult for some men to form meaningful intimate relationships, but I don't think that most men look at porn excessively (although I suppose we all have different ideas of what's "excessive"; to a porn-hating feminist or religious conservative, any porn would probably be excessive.) Of those men who do look at porn excessively, I can't say what percentage I think might be negatively affected by it, but I would think it's a minority.
"I don't know": one of the rarest things you ever see someone say on a blog or internet forum. Good for you, Ken.
I think it's entirely possible that excessive pornography consumption makes it more difficult for some men to form meaningful intimate relationships, but I don't think that most men look at porn excessively (although I suppose we all have different ideas of what's "excessive"; to a porn-hating feminist or religious conservative, any porn would probably be excessive.) Of those men who do look at porn excessively, I can't say what percentage I think might be negatively affected by it, but I would think it's a minority.
87
83/Violet: I am young, urban, queer, and kinky with the scars to prove it. There is a code of conduct for women like me, which goes something like this: if everybody is a consenting adult, then sex is good, period. Nothing about sex can be bad for you, because, as we know, sex is good. SEX IS GOOD. PERIOD. SHUT UP AND FUCK.
I'm curious about this code of conduct. Is this a code among lesbians? I've never seen Savage, for example, say "sex is good. period." He's talked about people being GGG if their partner wants to try something but I've never seen him say that if they they end up being game and trying it and don't like it, that they just have to shut up and continue doing it anyway.
I'm curious about this code of conduct. Is this a code among lesbians? I've never seen Savage, for example, say "sex is good. period." He's talked about people being GGG if their partner wants to try something but I've never seen him say that if they they end up being game and trying it and don't like it, that they just have to shut up and continue doing it anyway.
88
@85 'almost all of them wanted stoic manly men' ... Actually, I want men to be more expressive of their pleasure -- I much prefer moans to silence. And I'm happy to hear about his relationship with his mother, his children, and his boss, though maybe not in bed. But asking more than once whether his penis is too short... or why I would be willing to date someone who is no taller than I am... It's just dull. I try not to talk about the parts of my body I don't like, and I find it sexier if a guy does likewise.
@83, I'm not saying that porn is a force for good. Any more than romance novels or Disney movies are. (Where is ankylosaur when we need him?) But unless there's convincing evidence that it's really harmful, I'm not prepared to take it away from people. What convinced you to focus on porn as a major cause of problems in the modern world?
@83, I'm not saying that porn is a force for good. Any more than romance novels or Disney movies are. (Where is ankylosaur when we need him?) But unless there's convincing evidence that it's really harmful, I'm not prepared to take it away from people. What convinced you to focus on porn as a major cause of problems in the modern world?
89
@86 can excessive porn consumption damage relationships?
I won't comment on the maybes of interpersonal relationship behavior modification by porn, but there is the fact about the TIME lost. At some point the amount of time spent viewing porn can deplete the amount of time available for friends, family, and prospective partners. Remember we are considering truly excessive porn use and addiction. Now that there can be all porn, all the time, high speed Internet consumption, some people are going to do just that.
The sad part is, and this is coming from someone that dislikes censorship, there are almost no controls to avoid underage usage/abuse. That particular topic is one I shudder to broach with my kids (though banning web cams in the bedroom was a priority) beyond "don't do it". Having a good sex education system in place makes discussing things a whole lot easier vis a vis interpersonal relationships, but it doesn't do much to help explain the vast variety of kink and (dare I say) perversion up to and including viscousness that exists in porn on the web. Given the propensity for teen consumption of videos in general, time lost to porn is almost a given. And given the preciousness of time available to teens that are trying to prepare for college, or worse study time in college, porn is a problem.
Peace.
I won't comment on the maybes of interpersonal relationship behavior modification by porn, but there is the fact about the TIME lost. At some point the amount of time spent viewing porn can deplete the amount of time available for friends, family, and prospective partners. Remember we are considering truly excessive porn use and addiction. Now that there can be all porn, all the time, high speed Internet consumption, some people are going to do just that.
The sad part is, and this is coming from someone that dislikes censorship, there are almost no controls to avoid underage usage/abuse. That particular topic is one I shudder to broach with my kids (though banning web cams in the bedroom was a priority) beyond "don't do it". Having a good sex education system in place makes discussing things a whole lot easier vis a vis interpersonal relationships, but it doesn't do much to help explain the vast variety of kink and (dare I say) perversion up to and including viscousness that exists in porn on the web. Given the propensity for teen consumption of videos in general, time lost to porn is almost a given. And given the preciousness of time available to teens that are trying to prepare for college, or worse study time in college, porn is a problem.
Peace.
90
@89 porn is a problem because it distracts high school students from their college applications? Now I've heard it all. Why aren't we discussing video games, then, surely a greater time sink for most teens than porn?
91
@89 It sounds like the problem your describing has more to do with high speed internet than porn.
92
@4: "I do think a prolonged exposure to porn, especially if it begins at an early age and predates a man's actual sexual experiences (or early in his sexual life, if he's become sexually active "
Correlation != causation.
Correlation != causation.
93
@4: "I do think a prolonged exposure to porn, especially if it begins at an early age and predates a man's actual sexual experiences (or early in his sexual life, if he's become sexually active "
Correlation != causation.
Correlation != causation.
94
@90 Erica,
No argument there, but this topic is about porn. AND
@91 Ken,
Did you ever try to watch porn over dial-up?
Sex, drugs, and violence. All of them can be addictive, but at least drugs aren't virtualizable. I thought the discussion was about perception versus reality of problems stemming from porn. If you don't feel porn can be addictive, well, good for you. For other people, like me, it is.
Peace.
No argument there, but this topic is about porn. AND
@91 Ken,
Did you ever try to watch porn over dial-up?
Sex, drugs, and violence. All of them can be addictive, but at least drugs aren't virtualizable. I thought the discussion was about perception versus reality of problems stemming from porn. If you don't feel porn can be addictive, well, good for you. For other people, like me, it is.
Peace.
95
@88
I don't want it to be illegall! I just object to the idea that porn, as it is these days, should be socially acceptable. Or that women should have to accept it as part of their relationships.
I think Disney movies are pretty shitty in regards to women, yeah. But. Men aren't spending hours every week watching Disney movies. Men are not choosing to watch Disney movies rather than be intimate with actual humans. People arent rewiring their brains around Disney movies.
I'm talking about porn because this thread is about porn, and I think my perspective -- not conservative, still concerned -- is underrepresented. I think I'm part of a group of women who feel like we'll be attacked from both sides if we open our mouths.
@87
I'm not a lesbian, and you are straw-man-ing what I said.
I don't want it to be illegall! I just object to the idea that porn, as it is these days, should be socially acceptable. Or that women should have to accept it as part of their relationships.
I think Disney movies are pretty shitty in regards to women, yeah. But. Men aren't spending hours every week watching Disney movies. Men are not choosing to watch Disney movies rather than be intimate with actual humans. People arent rewiring their brains around Disney movies.
I'm talking about porn because this thread is about porn, and I think my perspective -- not conservative, still concerned -- is underrepresented. I think I'm part of a group of women who feel like we'll be attacked from both sides if we open our mouths.
@87
I'm not a lesbian, and you are straw-man-ing what I said.
96
@95, accept what you like in your relationships. There's no law decreeing what you have to accept. But my experience aligns with Dan's -- women who don't accept porn mostly end up with men who hide their porn use, rather than men who don't use porn. For particular couples, maybe that works out ok. For most couples, I think the secrecy leads to a lack of communication about what each person finds arousing, which in turn leads to boredom and a decline in sexual connection. I'm not attacking you; I'm disagreeing with you.
And, yes, I think our culture (Disney, romance novels, romantic comedies, etc.) give women and men an unrealistic idea of what a good long-term relationship looks like, which is as pernicious as the most 'degrading' porn fantasies.
And, yes, I think our culture (Disney, romance novels, romantic comedies, etc.) give women and men an unrealistic idea of what a good long-term relationship looks like, which is as pernicious as the most 'degrading' porn fantasies.
97
@63 (kersey), who wrote: "I watch mainstream porn and it is 99% of the time a man jerking off into a hole that happens to be attached to a woman."
Yes, kersey. I'm sure nobody -- none of the actors involved, and none of the viewers -- would care or even notice if said hole was unattached from a woman and placed on a door, a sofa, or a tree. Sales would go up, as would profits (just imagine, they even wouldn't need to hire and pay female performers), and everybody would be happier (including you). Yes indeed, you do have reason to laugh. :-)
Yes, kersey. I'm sure nobody -- none of the actors involved, and none of the viewers -- would care or even notice if said hole was unattached from a woman and placed on a door, a sofa, or a tree. Sales would go up, as would profits (just imagine, they even wouldn't need to hire and pay female performers), and everybody would be happier (including you). Yes indeed, you do have reason to laugh. :-)
98
@62 (vavava...) who wrote it is that it is my duty as a woman to remove it all for his pleasure. My opinion on the matter is irrelevant, that is just the way it is.
It's funny that you think I defend the opinion that images never affect us, when I defended the opposite opinion at length in my posts... But I digress.
My point with respect to this is that it's simply fashion. I'll bet $100 that within the next decade or so the trend will revert (as fashion always does). And then it will come back, and go away again. And porn will follow it in this yin-yang relation that the fashion industry always has with what the people want, or what the industry wants them to want, or what they want the industry to want them to want, or...
My point is simple: you 'blame' porn for this expectation, whereas I 'blame' a culture in which all kinds of body modification (from piercing to 'earlabia') are now simply becoming part of fashion. As sex becomes a more acceptable topic for conversation and opinions, sexual fashion -- what your gentialia are supposed to be like -- becomes a plausible cultural item. Even if there was no porn, something would have taken the lead on genital fashion, be it Cosmo or Brides Weekly.
And you miss EricaP's point: namely, that porn has had good influences on people (including making cunnilingus become an expectation, too.). That's the point: porn can be a good influence.
It's funny that you think I defend the opinion that images never affect us, when I defended the opposite opinion at length in my posts... But I digress.
My point with respect to this is that it's simply fashion. I'll bet $100 that within the next decade or so the trend will revert (as fashion always does). And then it will come back, and go away again. And porn will follow it in this yin-yang relation that the fashion industry always has with what the people want, or what the industry wants them to want, or what they want the industry to want them to want, or...
My point is simple: you 'blame' porn for this expectation, whereas I 'blame' a culture in which all kinds of body modification (from piercing to 'earlabia') are now simply becoming part of fashion. As sex becomes a more acceptable topic for conversation and opinions, sexual fashion -- what your gentialia are supposed to be like -- becomes a plausible cultural item. Even if there was no porn, something would have taken the lead on genital fashion, be it Cosmo or Brides Weekly.
And you miss EricaP's point: namely, that porn has had good influences on people (including making cunnilingus become an expectation, too.). That's the point: porn can be a good influence.
99
@EricaP, who wrote: " I couldn't look them in the eye. Was that because I was really ashamed of what I was doing, or playing with the idea of being ashamed, degraded... I couldn't tell you."
As someone who also vigorously appreciates the pleasure of being humiliated or degraded in sex, I have also often wondered what would happen if some specific act, now seen as 'degrading', suddenly lost this cachet. Would it suddenly become unappealing to me? Would I have to change to some other act, still considered humiliating or degrading by the majority of people?
My guess is no, because my taste is already formed. But I suppose new masochists/submissives might have an interest in different kinds of activities if the 'classic' degradation scenes suddenly changed their cultural status to non-degrading. :-)
But I would point out one difference between your case (and mine) and the case of the repressed person who blames the porn s/he used: the repressed person actually believes that, he is not only 'sweetly' ashamed, he is 'sourly' ashamed of what s/he did, wishes s/he won't do it again (prays to god, begs for help, tells him/herself s/he has 'a problem', hate him/herself because of this...) whereas you actually enjoyed it.
We've all gone through a 'repressive' phase that made these things sinful, I think. I vividly remember my early-to-late adolescence, a time when I thought I was the only person in the world cursed with liking 'those icky things' -- certainly everybody else was OK and I was the only one with this dirty secret to conceal?... It wasn't until the beginnings of the internet age (the old Usenet discussion groups) that I found out I wasn't the only one.
As someone who also vigorously appreciates the pleasure of being humiliated or degraded in sex, I have also often wondered what would happen if some specific act, now seen as 'degrading', suddenly lost this cachet. Would it suddenly become unappealing to me? Would I have to change to some other act, still considered humiliating or degrading by the majority of people?
My guess is no, because my taste is already formed. But I suppose new masochists/submissives might have an interest in different kinds of activities if the 'classic' degradation scenes suddenly changed their cultural status to non-degrading. :-)
But I would point out one difference between your case (and mine) and the case of the repressed person who blames the porn s/he used: the repressed person actually believes that, he is not only 'sweetly' ashamed, he is 'sourly' ashamed of what s/he did, wishes s/he won't do it again (prays to god, begs for help, tells him/herself s/he has 'a problem', hate him/herself because of this...) whereas you actually enjoyed it.
We've all gone through a 'repressive' phase that made these things sinful, I think. I vividly remember my early-to-late adolescence, a time when I thought I was the only person in the world cursed with liking 'those icky things' -- certainly everybody else was OK and I was the only one with this dirty secret to conceal?... It wasn't until the beginnings of the internet age (the old Usenet discussion groups) that I found out I wasn't the only one.
100
@Violet, who wrote: "The claim that most porn isn't violent or degrading is ABSURD. You may believe that your super-strong mind can take repeated exposure to these images of women combined with massive dopamine reward and not be affected."
All of sex is degrading or violent (hint: 'violation') by some people's standards; that's part of the fundamentalist's argument book. So just claiming it's ABSURD to say the opposite when in fact it's your OPINION is, I think, one of those logical fallacies I keep confusing with each other.
People are always concerned with the messages in the media -- ever since the media became highly available, we've all been terrorizing ourselves about how violent, how stupid, how degrading, how desperately bad it is for us. Nobody's looking at numbers, though.
I'm a believer in research. You're concerned with something? Rather than being against it, encourage more research on the topic, from sources as academically respectable as possible. Don't just be concerned: study the topic. Dan at least links to an article on the topic -- one that I hope will inspire further research. Getting more data out there is always a good thing.
"Dan can't see porn through women's eyes..." and neither can you. You can only see porn (or anything else) through your eyes. Whenever someone starts overgeneralizing, in the belief that s/he speaks for 'all men' or 'all women', I think I'm listening to someone who has lost his/her sense of proportion.
All of sex is degrading or violent (hint: 'violation') by some people's standards; that's part of the fundamentalist's argument book. So just claiming it's ABSURD to say the opposite when in fact it's your OPINION is, I think, one of those logical fallacies I keep confusing with each other.
People are always concerned with the messages in the media -- ever since the media became highly available, we've all been terrorizing ourselves about how violent, how stupid, how degrading, how desperately bad it is for us. Nobody's looking at numbers, though.
I'm a believer in research. You're concerned with something? Rather than being against it, encourage more research on the topic, from sources as academically respectable as possible. Don't just be concerned: study the topic. Dan at least links to an article on the topic -- one that I hope will inspire further research. Getting more data out there is always a good thing.
"Dan can't see porn through women's eyes..." and neither can you. You can only see porn (or anything else) through your eyes. Whenever someone starts overgeneralizing, in the belief that s/he speaks for 'all men' or 'all women', I think I'm listening to someone who has lost his/her sense of proportion.
101
@ Mr Mehlmann, who wrote:
Both I and my wife had quite a lot of "casual sex" before we ended up together; and we've been together, quite monogamous (by mutual consent; no monogamish about it) and committed, for over ten years. We both quite enjoyed porn before we met (and still do). So, I can testify that whatever the effects, they aren't 100%.
I will only say: when we 'don't know' something, I think the correct response is to encourage further studies of the question. If you 'don't know' whether or not viewing porn makes it more difficult for men to form meaningful intimate relationships, this means the answer might actually be the opposite: that it makes it easier for them; and you wouldn't know. (I think you probably really mean that you fear this is the case.)
My honest opinion, Mr Mehlman, is that people almost always have the wrong expectations about 'meaningful intimate relationships' when they first come to the age when they can start having them, because there is no real easy way to find such relationships. Part of growing up is exactly unlearning whatever it is you think you know, from whatever sources -- be it porn, observing your own parents, what you hear from your friends, 19th-century romance novels, your favorite TV shows, sacred religious texts, and so on -- and start paying attention to reality.
The antidote to what you fear from porn is, like everything else, growing up.
Is it possible that excessive pornography consumption makes it more difficult for men to form meaningful intimate relationships? I don't know. I definitely think that easy access to unlimited amounts of casual sex makes it more difficult for gay guys to form committed loving relationships.
Both I and my wife had quite a lot of "casual sex" before we ended up together; and we've been together, quite monogamous (by mutual consent; no monogamish about it) and committed, for over ten years. We both quite enjoyed porn before we met (and still do). So, I can testify that whatever the effects, they aren't 100%.
I will only say: when we 'don't know' something, I think the correct response is to encourage further studies of the question. If you 'don't know' whether or not viewing porn makes it more difficult for men to form meaningful intimate relationships, this means the answer might actually be the opposite: that it makes it easier for them; and you wouldn't know. (I think you probably really mean that you fear this is the case.)
My honest opinion, Mr Mehlman, is that people almost always have the wrong expectations about 'meaningful intimate relationships' when they first come to the age when they can start having them, because there is no real easy way to find such relationships. Part of growing up is exactly unlearning whatever it is you think you know, from whatever sources -- be it porn, observing your own parents, what you hear from your friends, 19th-century romance novels, your favorite TV shows, sacred religious texts, and so on -- and start paying attention to reality.
The antidote to what you fear from porn is, like everything else, growing up.
102
@Ms Violett, who wrote: I think Disney movies are pretty shitty in regards to women, yeah. But. Men aren't spending hours every week watching Disney movies. Men are not choosing to watch Disney movies rather than be intimate with actual humans.
Whereas girls are doing all these things?
The man who are choosing to watch porn rather than be intimate with other humans are not harmed by porn, but by their addictive behavior. If they were avoiding people in order to satisfy an addiction to gambling, or sports stats, or science fiction shows... do you think it would be any better for them, or for any prospective parterns they might have?
You're afraid of the dopamine reinforcement. Since dopamine is involved with anything that gives us pleasure, you might just as well be concerned with anything pleasant in our culture: aren't there people who are getting addicted to it, and isn't it ruining their lives, and the lives of those they're involved with?
Yes, quite certainly. There are.
But the problem here is not the pleasure, it's the addiction. Porn addiction is not bad because it's about porn, but because it's an addiction. The correct countermeasures would be anti-addiction measures, not anti-porn measures.
As EricaP says, the study Dan links to should help allay your fears -- or at least show that there is some chance (pending again further studies, etc.) that your fears are unfounded. I'm not claiming they necessarily are: I'm just saying that this possibility exists. Yes, you (and all of us) should definitely be concerned with the possibility that your concerns may be unfounded.
As for this society claiming that porn is OK: I assume that your experience from your soap-box-yelling days defending sex againsgt a sex-negative culture will have shown you that this is clearly not at all the case. We may be going in this direction, there may be segments of the population who are already there, but it certainly is not the mainstream opinion.
I'll second EricaP here: don't be with people who don't treat you well. If you don't like porn, don't view it. Don't judge people by whether or not they view porn, but by how they behave (with respect to you, or to others). Remember that addiction is bad because it's addiction, not because it's to porn. That's basically it.
More...
Whereas girls are doing all these things?
The man who are choosing to watch porn rather than be intimate with other humans are not harmed by porn, but by their addictive behavior. If they were avoiding people in order to satisfy an addiction to gambling, or sports stats, or science fiction shows... do you think it would be any better for them, or for any prospective parterns they might have?
You're afraid of the dopamine reinforcement. Since dopamine is involved with anything that gives us pleasure, you might just as well be concerned with anything pleasant in our culture: aren't there people who are getting addicted to it, and isn't it ruining their lives, and the lives of those they're involved with?
Yes, quite certainly. There are.
But the problem here is not the pleasure, it's the addiction. Porn addiction is not bad because it's about porn, but because it's an addiction. The correct countermeasures would be anti-addiction measures, not anti-porn measures.
As EricaP says, the study Dan links to should help allay your fears -- or at least show that there is some chance (pending again further studies, etc.) that your fears are unfounded. I'm not claiming they necessarily are: I'm just saying that this possibility exists. Yes, you (and all of us) should definitely be concerned with the possibility that your concerns may be unfounded.
As for this society claiming that porn is OK: I assume that your experience from your soap-box-yelling days defending sex againsgt a sex-negative culture will have shown you that this is clearly not at all the case. We may be going in this direction, there may be segments of the population who are already there, but it certainly is not the mainstream opinion.
I'll second EricaP here: don't be with people who don't treat you well. If you don't like porn, don't view it. Don't judge people by whether or not they view porn, but by how they behave (with respect to you, or to others). Remember that addiction is bad because it's addiction, not because it's to porn. That's basically it.
103
Unlimited bandwidth = Unlimited porn
Unlimited porn = Unlimited masturbation
Masturbation = Friction
Friction = Heat
Heat = Global Warning
Think of the penguins! Lobby Congress to limit bandwidth.
Unlimited porn = Unlimited masturbation
Masturbation = Friction
Friction = Heat
Heat = Global Warning
Think of the penguins! Lobby Congress to limit bandwidth.
104
I'm with @60; the biggest change I've seen (after a long time being married and now divorced) with internet porn has been the demand for a hairless body. On OK Cupid and plentyoffish.com there are MANY men who write something like "if you aren't bare, don't contact me." It's fine for me to just go without having sex with those men so I don't have to deal with making myself look like an 11-year old, but I worry about the resistance my daughter will encounter when she becomes sexually active. I enjoy looking at various kinds of porn (and reading it), but the bare thing is worrisome.
105
@104, as a man who is very much into hairy women (bare genitals are OK and fun, but I'm defintely more attracted to me as hairy ones), all I can say is: I don't think it's porn per se. It's again the fashion thing.
The porn of the 70's and 80's was full of hairy bushes. Then removing the hair became attractive (presumably because it was rare; also because it let you 'see more'). If you wait a couple of decades, it will change again, as all fashion does.
Just as you don't need to be afraid that any of today's fashions -- shoes, body painting, piercing, whatever -- will last forever, I don't think this will be the case with hairless women either. It comes and goes, and it's not porn: it's fashion. :-)
The porn of the 70's and 80's was full of hairy bushes. Then removing the hair became attractive (presumably because it was rare; also because it let you 'see more'). If you wait a couple of decades, it will change again, as all fashion does.
Just as you don't need to be afraid that any of today's fashions -- shoes, body painting, piercing, whatever -- will last forever, I don't think this will be the case with hairless women either. It comes and goes, and it's not porn: it's fashion. :-)
106
@104 When it come to casual sex the women has the power. Guys are more into that sort thing so a women interested in NSA fun can pick and choose her playmates. When it comes to a relationship, not so much. The usual pattern in hetero relationships is the female offers sex in exchange for love and commitment. Culture and media, including porn, shape men's expectations of what kind of sex they should expect in return for pretending to give a shit about the decretive towels the girl friend put up in the bathroom. A women who doesn't meet those expectations will have a difficult time finding a man.
107
@106, I understand where you're coming from -- your description does have many pretty traditional elements -- but I have to say it's quite sad. It does not describe any of the relationships I've had with women, friendships, loves, affairs (long and short), and now with my wife. It's depressing to think you may be right about many (perhaps a majority) of cases (though I'd still like to see the stats), and it's good to know that you're not right about all cases.
108
@99 "whereas you actually enjoyed it" -- yep :-) good point.
@103 lol
@104, I'm on OKC. Can you point me to any profile saying that? I'll agree that in their responses to the questions, men probably say they prefer bare (as ankylosaur says, it's the current fashion). But have you really seen men put that on their profile page?
@103 lol
@104, I'm on OKC. Can you point me to any profile saying that? I'll agree that in their responses to the questions, men probably say they prefer bare (as ankylosaur says, it's the current fashion). But have you really seen men put that on their profile page?
109
@107 The other day a guy I work with was telling me about how he likes the night shift because his wife is usually asleep by the time he gets home so he can jerk off if he feels like it. His wife is very pregnant and hasn't given him any sex in months, but she has a major bitch fit if she catches him stroking in the shower. He's a handsome charming guy, plenty of women would be happy to be his girl on the side. He's a good christian man who listens to Rush Limbaugh and has a 'God, Guns, and Guts' bumper sticker on his extended cab pick-up. If he ever had an affair he'd never forgive himself, but it looks like that's the way things are going. When I hear stories like that about hetero marriage I'm almost glad I'm a fag.
110
Yes. And why I'm now trained to get an erection when ever I see the Quicktime logo.
Did you ever try to watch porn over dial-up?
Yes. And why I'm now trained to get an erection when ever I see the Quicktime logo.
111
@95 Your concerned. Okay. Fine. Let's see the data? Where is it? If we're operating from biased data let's see you unbiased data?
Otherwise stop chasing phantoms based upon hunches and anecdotes... and frankly quit projecting all these fears outward to the rest of us — because it's obvious they are rooted in your own personal tastes. Cop to it. It will make your life a great deal better. Trust me.
Or. At least be concerned about the right things - real harms. Like the physical abuse and economic exploitation of porn performers. At the very least you could be arguing for the responsible consumption of porn. This included so called "addictions." An overused diagnosis if ever there was one. People waste time and ruin their lives being "addicted" to all sorts of things. Including collecting dolls.
But arguing about all the mysterious "effects" porn simply must have... because of ... sex and the limbic system... and neurotransmitters... and something something...
But you have no proof. None. Only theories.
In fact we have concrete evidence of the opposite in terms of overall societal harm. Societies with more porn seems to correlate with: Rape rates down; Women gaining rights and economic equality; etc.
Societies with less porn seems to correlate with: More sexual violence; Women with fewer or diminished rights.
Sure it's a more complicated social formula than just porn. Of course.
Regardless. Pornography has increased and there has been ZERO correlation with all these predicted harms. In fact it's the opposite. These are facts that cannot be discounted except by those with an agenda.
An agenda that keeps moving goal posts. It used to simply that sex was evil. Well. The cultural has matured and no longer accepts that. The it became wanton sexuality harms women. Then women gained more equality and that argument flew out the window. Then it was wanton MALE sexuality (via pornography as a way to demonize men) harms women. And yet that argument has proven even weaker.
Now the last and weakest refuge is: Well, all this porn makes it so men won't want to bang their less idealized parters, will hold women to unrealistic standards, and will lead to unhappy relationships.
Holy shit. When has that NOT been the complaint in one way or another—without porn. That's not porn. That's people not having good relationship skills PERIOD.
Funny thing is. Divorce is down. People are reporting better communication in their relationships than ever before and women have more control over what relationships they want than ever before.
I tell you what this agenda is: It IS anti-sexuality.
Because part of being a mature adult is accepting what you like and don't like and not judging other consenting adults for what they like. What anti-porn people have done is harnessed the inherit immature root insecurities of a puritanical society and legitimized them by convincing them it's about helping.
The road to hell is paved by good intentions.
More...
Otherwise stop chasing phantoms based upon hunches and anecdotes... and frankly quit projecting all these fears outward to the rest of us — because it's obvious they are rooted in your own personal tastes. Cop to it. It will make your life a great deal better. Trust me.
Or. At least be concerned about the right things - real harms. Like the physical abuse and economic exploitation of porn performers. At the very least you could be arguing for the responsible consumption of porn. This included so called "addictions." An overused diagnosis if ever there was one. People waste time and ruin their lives being "addicted" to all sorts of things. Including collecting dolls.
But arguing about all the mysterious "effects" porn simply must have... because of ... sex and the limbic system... and neurotransmitters... and something something...
But you have no proof. None. Only theories.
In fact we have concrete evidence of the opposite in terms of overall societal harm. Societies with more porn seems to correlate with: Rape rates down; Women gaining rights and economic equality; etc.
Societies with less porn seems to correlate with: More sexual violence; Women with fewer or diminished rights.
Sure it's a more complicated social formula than just porn. Of course.
Regardless. Pornography has increased and there has been ZERO correlation with all these predicted harms. In fact it's the opposite. These are facts that cannot be discounted except by those with an agenda.
An agenda that keeps moving goal posts. It used to simply that sex was evil. Well. The cultural has matured and no longer accepts that. The it became wanton sexuality harms women. Then women gained more equality and that argument flew out the window. Then it was wanton MALE sexuality (via pornography as a way to demonize men) harms women. And yet that argument has proven even weaker.
Now the last and weakest refuge is: Well, all this porn makes it so men won't want to bang their less idealized parters, will hold women to unrealistic standards, and will lead to unhappy relationships.
Holy shit. When has that NOT been the complaint in one way or another—without porn. That's not porn. That's people not having good relationship skills PERIOD.
Funny thing is. Divorce is down. People are reporting better communication in their relationships than ever before and women have more control over what relationships they want than ever before.
I tell you what this agenda is: It IS anti-sexuality.
Because part of being a mature adult is accepting what you like and don't like and not judging other consenting adults for what they like. What anti-porn people have done is harnessed the inherit immature root insecurities of a puritanical society and legitimized them by convincing them it's about helping.
The road to hell is paved by good intentions.
112
@111 I suspect you could find a correlation between the increased availability of porn and the rise in the number of single mothers. Conservatives are always talking about how the sexual revolution undermined the traditional family.
113
RE: public hair:
"all I can say is: I don't think it's porn per se. It's again the fashion thing." - 105
Yes, but that's an example of porn dictating fashion, not vice versa. Same with breast implants. Once pornstars started getting boob jobs, regular women followed suit. So you can't say that porn has NO effect on men's fantasies or on women's self image. I read fashion blogs and see tons of porn-influenced fashion spreads. The more mainstream porn becomes, the more influential it is.
I'm a porn watcher and a shaver, so I'm not passing judgement here, just saying let's be realistic. Porn has given me plenty of fantasies I didn't previously have, and I'm sure I'm not alone.
"all I can say is: I don't think it's porn per se. It's again the fashion thing." - 105
Yes, but that's an example of porn dictating fashion, not vice versa. Same with breast implants. Once pornstars started getting boob jobs, regular women followed suit. So you can't say that porn has NO effect on men's fantasies or on women's self image. I read fashion blogs and see tons of porn-influenced fashion spreads. The more mainstream porn becomes, the more influential it is.
I'm a porn watcher and a shaver, so I'm not passing judgement here, just saying let's be realistic. Porn has given me plenty of fantasies I didn't previously have, and I'm sure I'm not alone.
114
@113 - what is this "porn" that you say is dictating fashion? That's like saying "magazines" dictate fashion. How about: editors (of porn, of magazines) are often in a position to dictate fashion. And fashions catch on when a lot of people agree to give it a try.
If you don't like a fashion, then do your own thing -- that's stylish!
If you don't like a fashion, then do your own thing -- that's stylish!
116
83/Violet: I am young, urban, queer, and kinky with the scars to prove it. There is a code of conduct for women like me...
87/Me: I'm curious about this code of conduct. Is this a code among lesbians?
95/Violet: I'm not a lesbian
So queer + woman does not = lesbian? OK then, perhaps you're bisexual (or asexual.) Or perhaps you're a woman who's queer in the sense of being odd.
In any case I remain curious about this "code of conduct"...who has it?
87/Me: I'm curious about this code of conduct. Is this a code among lesbians?
95/Violet: I'm not a lesbian
So queer + woman does not = lesbian? OK then, perhaps you're bisexual (or asexual.) Or perhaps you're a woman who's queer in the sense of being odd.
In any case I remain curious about this "code of conduct"...who has it?
117
@116, or pan-sexual, or likes animal play (<>bestiality), or any of a variety of other practices & politics that lead young urban people to call themselves "queer." More fun than being "straight," certainly.
118
104/Sarah, It's fine for me to just go without having sex with those men so I don't have to deal with making myself look like an 11-year old,
I find it interesting how so many women seem convinced that the only reason men like women to be shaved is because the men need to have the women look like little girls.
Could that be the reason for some men? Probably. But that doesn't mean it's the reason for most men.
I'd never been with a woman who shaved until about twelve years ago. I love going down on a woman and when I met her it was like a whole new experience, to have all that smoothness instead of getting pesky hairs in my mouth and teeth. I liked it. A lot. It had nothing to do with how she looked and everything to do with how she felt. I'd never refuse to sleep with a woman (or go down on a woman) if she didn't shave. But I definitely prefer the smoothness.
Also, of all the women who shave, I don't know what percentage do it just for men but that woman I mentioned above told me that she liked the feel of the smoothness, that she did it for herself just as much as for men.
I find it interesting how so many women seem convinced that the only reason men like women to be shaved is because the men need to have the women look like little girls.
Could that be the reason for some men? Probably. But that doesn't mean it's the reason for most men.
I'd never been with a woman who shaved until about twelve years ago. I love going down on a woman and when I met her it was like a whole new experience, to have all that smoothness instead of getting pesky hairs in my mouth and teeth. I liked it. A lot. It had nothing to do with how she looked and everything to do with how she felt. I'd never refuse to sleep with a woman (or go down on a woman) if she didn't shave. But I definitely prefer the smoothness.
Also, of all the women who shave, I don't know what percentage do it just for men but that woman I mentioned above told me that she liked the feel of the smoothness, that she did it for herself just as much as for men.
119
Erica, well you learn something new every day. I thought "queer" meant gay or lesbian but apparently it's become broader than that.
By the way, regarding your reply @ 85, Norah Vincent wasn't saying that women want stoic men in the sense of never being expressive, like being silent in bed instead of moaning. It was more to do with women wanting men to always be strong, to never show any weaknesses or insecurities.
I'd say that most guys likely would also not find it sexy if a woman went on and on about parts of her body she didn't like. But I do believe what I said above: that, overall, men are more accepting of women expressing weaknesses and insecurities because men don't have this expectation for women to always be strong.
By the way, regarding your reply @ 85, Norah Vincent wasn't saying that women want stoic men in the sense of never being expressive, like being silent in bed instead of moaning. It was more to do with women wanting men to always be strong, to never show any weaknesses or insecurities.
I'd say that most guys likely would also not find it sexy if a woman went on and on about parts of her body she didn't like. But I do believe what I said above: that, overall, men are more accepting of women expressing weaknesses and insecurities because men don't have this expectation for women to always be strong.
120
In regard to your last paragraph, Roma, I certainly agree that there are gender stereotypes in our society, and many people are happier with partners who conform to most of the gender stereotypes. The reason young people are turning to the identity "queer," is (I believe) to indicate that they are comfortable flouting those gender and sexuality stereotypes, and look for partners who are also comfortable like that.
121
EricaP, anytime I've come across one of those "must be bare" men on OKC I just hide them, so I can't point you to any current ones (maybe I've hidden them all!). However, I just got on the net with a bunch of friends from high school (we're all in our early 50s) and half of them say that they are bare (not shaved, but "Brazilianed"). They say that it's incredibly arousing for them to feel their bare lips against their underwear, and THAT'S something that makes sense to me. Anything that racks up one's own arousal sounds like a good thing; if it were just because one's lover made one feel bad about having a bush, then that sounds more like slut-shaming.
122
Here's my view, Sarah. Like many women "of a certain age," I was comfortable shaving my pits and legs, and thought that shaving my pubes was way too annoying. Two years ago when I first shaved there, I was initially upset by how itchy it was, and thought there was no way I could do this over the long term. But... once I had done it for a few months, it became second nature, just part of getting ready for a date. No more itching, and the actual shaving isn't a hassle any more - no worse than legs + pits.
So... I guess if you already shave your legs+pits, I would encourage you to keep an open mind about pubes. If you're curious, try it for a month (shaving a couple of times a week), and see how you feel. If you hate it, then tell guys you tried it, and you didn't like it. Anyone who would bug you at that point is a dick.
So... I guess if you already shave your legs+pits, I would encourage you to keep an open mind about pubes. If you're curious, try it for a month (shaving a couple of times a week), and see how you feel. If you hate it, then tell guys you tried it, and you didn't like it. Anyone who would bug you at that point is a dick.
123
However, I just got on the net with a bunch of friends from high school (we're all in our early 50s) and half of them say that they are bare (not shaved, but "Brazilianed").
I'm surprised the percentage is that high. It would be interesting to know if that percentage holds approximately true for all women around that age.
They say that it's incredibly arousing for them to feel their bare lips against their underwear, and THAT'S something that makes sense to me.
Interesting...I can see where it would create that sensation. I don't recall the woman I mentioned above saying that particular thing about being bare, but I definitely remember her saying she liked feeling smooth. I also remember asking her if it wasn't a real hassle (she shaved) and she said it was at first but she quickly got used to it, and the benefit to her outweighed the cost.
I'm surprised the percentage is that high. It would be interesting to know if that percentage holds approximately true for all women around that age.
They say that it's incredibly arousing for them to feel their bare lips against their underwear, and THAT'S something that makes sense to me.
Interesting...I can see where it would create that sensation. I don't recall the woman I mentioned above saying that particular thing about being bare, but I definitely remember her saying she liked feeling smooth. I also remember asking her if it wasn't a real hassle (she shaved) and she said it was at first but she quickly got used to it, and the benefit to her outweighed the cost.
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