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News & ArtsWednesday, October 26, 2011
Video of the Day Lunchtime Quickie: Should This Boy Be A Girl Scout?
Posted by Kelly O on Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 12:10 PM
1
If I understand correctly, Bobby likes girl stuff, but is clear that he's a boy? He dresses "like a girl," but doesn't say he is a girl? And that's why the girl scouts won't let him in?
That seems pretty reasonable to me...
That seems pretty reasonable to me...
2
Nobody should be a Girl Scout. The national council should merge the Girl and Boy Scouts and let them all do the cool stuff that the Boy Scouts get to instead of the bullshit homemaking, cookie sales, and lukewarm almost-camping that most Girl Scouts seem to do. That would avoid this kind of ridiculous problem entirely.
Anyway, as written, as I understand it, Scouting is a private organization with religious backing. They don't have to let in anyone they don't want to. I don't like it, but those are the facts.
Anyway, as written, as I understand it, Scouting is a private organization with religious backing. They don't have to let in anyone they don't want to. I don't like it, but those are the facts.
3
I think we need to make both groups more para-military than what they already are. I mean most of those kids will need to join the military anyway just to try to pay for college So let's get them started as early as possible to swear oaths, learn to salute, take orders, kill people, shoot guns, sell cookies, etc.
4
@2 - I don't know about the Girl Scouts, but the BSA gets government funding in addition to the religious backing. They're not entirely a private entity.
6
@2 - That might have been the Girl Scouts in the 50s or 60s, but it was changing even when I was one in the 1980s. Most of my badges were in things like astronmy and construction, and I promise you we camped in the woods in tents. We did sell, cookies, of course...but Girl Scout cookies are both cheaper and better quality than boy scout popcorn.
But having said all that...Girl Scout troops tend to be more...individualistic than Boy Scout troops. I have no doubt that there are troops in the country that are still teaching there is no higher aspiration as a woman than to be a good caretaker and who work mainly on badges like sewing. And while most Girl Scout troops are very inclusive, I have no doubt that some of are not.
tl;dr: Girl Scouts are changing. Boy Scouts discriminate universally, Girl Scouts discriminate randomly.
But having said all that...Girl Scout troops tend to be more...individualistic than Boy Scout troops. I have no doubt that there are troops in the country that are still teaching there is no higher aspiration as a woman than to be a good caretaker and who work mainly on badges like sewing. And while most Girl Scout troops are very inclusive, I have no doubt that some of are not.
tl;dr: Girl Scouts are changing. Boy Scouts discriminate universally, Girl Scouts discriminate randomly.
8
I fail to see the harm that is done to the kid or the Girl Scout organization by letting in a boy. That they offer membership to children who identify as girls and are presented as girls, but not boys who like "girl things" is a silly line to draw in the sand. Conversely, by being excluded (unless Bobby is willing to spell his name with an "i" in place of the "y"), he misses out on an experience that could be very positive for him in his formative years.
God help me, I'm about to say "labels", but the organization's insistence on the importance of labels makes little more sense than if they flatly refused to admit anyone to the club who wasn't wearing a purple shirt.
God help me, I'm about to say "labels", but the organization's insistence on the importance of labels makes little more sense than if they flatly refused to admit anyone to the club who wasn't wearing a purple shirt.
9
@6, fair point. I am basing my impression on a handful of individual experiences (modern ones, though, not from the 60s) which may or may not be representative.
In return, though, I'd point out that I think your impression of the Boy Scouts is equally mistaken, in almost the same way. The activities and attitudes vary widely from troop to troop. A lot of them - my own former troop included - are not actually particularly beholden to the national council for anything except signing off on merit badges and promotions. The high-profile cases of discrimination you hear about are rare, in my experience - examples of national policy that's enforced in some places and not others.
@4, yes, and that's been a point of contention in situations like this before. I was just stating the facts as they seem to lie, not the way I think it should be. Whatever the BSA receives from the government, it doesn't seem to be a strong enough tie to get them in trouble in court for acting like bigoted assholes (shocking for an organization that's dominated by the Mormon church, I know) at the national level.
In return, though, I'd point out that I think your impression of the Boy Scouts is equally mistaken, in almost the same way. The activities and attitudes vary widely from troop to troop. A lot of them - my own former troop included - are not actually particularly beholden to the national council for anything except signing off on merit badges and promotions. The high-profile cases of discrimination you hear about are rare, in my experience - examples of national policy that's enforced in some places and not others.
@4, yes, and that's been a point of contention in situations like this before. I was just stating the facts as they seem to lie, not the way I think it should be. Whatever the BSA receives from the government, it doesn't seem to be a strong enough tie to get them in trouble in court for acting like bigoted assholes (shocking for an organization that's dominated by the Mormon church, I know) at the national level.
10
Or we could catch up with the rest of the industrialized world and have a single unified scouting movement.
When people complain that the scouts have become too conservative, they usually don't bother to find out why that is. The LDS took over scouting by actually showing up and being involved. That simple. LDS troops get chartered, have high enrollment, and lots of parental involvement. The decline of a liberal presence in scouting is in large part a self-reinforcing process.
Despite this, I persuaded my girlfriend to enroll her son in the cub scouts on Queen Anne. The way to make scouting a progressive organization is to be involved.
When people complain that the scouts have become too conservative, they usually don't bother to find out why that is. The LDS took over scouting by actually showing up and being involved. That simple. LDS troops get chartered, have high enrollment, and lots of parental involvement. The decline of a liberal presence in scouting is in large part a self-reinforcing process.
Despite this, I persuaded my girlfriend to enroll her son in the cub scouts on Queen Anne. The way to make scouting a progressive organization is to be involved.
12
@9 Yeah, troop/council policy is really the final stop. When I worked for my council as a teenager, it was well-known that there were openly gay scoutmasters, but their chartering orgs and the council weren't interested in discriminatory policies.
14
"...national council should merge the Girl and Boy Scouts and let them all do the cool stuff that the Boy Scouts get to..." (@1)
...like dance naked around a campfire in a forced hazing ritual while the fat married scoutmaster rubs his hands and chortles with glee? Because that's one of the things I remember.
I know there are supposed to be more safeguards now, but I'm still bothered by the secrecy and refusal to address past scandals, the paramilitary aspects, and—oh yeah—the discrimination against gays and non-religious people.
...like dance naked around a campfire in a forced hazing ritual while the fat married scoutmaster rubs his hands and chortles with glee? Because that's one of the things I remember.
I know there are supposed to be more safeguards now, but I'm still bothered by the secrecy and refusal to address past scandals, the paramilitary aspects, and—oh yeah—the discrimination against gays and non-religious people.
16
@14, if there had been coed naked campfire dancing when I were a lad, I would have joined the Scouts in a heartbeat.
17
@16, not to make it sound like my innocence was destroyed—I was really upset that I missed a weekend campout when one of the guys streaked the campground, got tackled by some other scouts, tied to a tree, and had his hardon mercilessly tickled with an eagle feather... to his apparent delight. But that would have been my delectation rather than the scoutmaster's alone.
18
@17 - Sounds like there should be a Slog Scout camping trip sometime to make up for lost youth. I'll bring the gin and marshmallows.
19
rob!, I don't want to trivialize your experiences or anything but I think I can say with at least a moderate degree of confidence that your account is not exactly typical.
Besides, modernizing organizations tends to out the bullies and pedophiles. Just look at the Catholic church.
Besides, modernizing organizations tends to out the bullies and pedophiles. Just look at the Catholic church.
21
"I was a girl scout once, and a brownie, until some brat got scared," said Angel in Rent.
That being quoted, I fucking hated the four years I was forced to spend in the girl scouts. I learned jackshit, made no friends, and was miserable. I only liked wearing my uniform. The kid needs to find a better organization, and one that isn't so godly and discriminating.
That being quoted, I fucking hated the four years I was forced to spend in the girl scouts. I learned jackshit, made no friends, and was miserable. I only liked wearing my uniform. The kid needs to find a better organization, and one that isn't so godly and discriminating.
22
Can we just do away with Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts? If kids want to learn to camp, and serve their communities, just found an organization for kids of all genders and hop to it. There is no need for Christian propoganda or gender-identifying activities. This is not the 50s. Let it go.
23
Girl Scouts rules, I have no idea where some of you are getting the idea that they are regressive! Boy Scouts on the other hand is a shitty homophobic organization for sure.
Let Bobby be a Girl Scout - it might really change his perception of what things are "girly" when he goes out on a winter camping trip or gets to learn how to build the perfect campfire.
Let Bobby be a Girl Scout - it might really change his perception of what things are "girly" when he goes out on a winter camping trip or gets to learn how to build the perfect campfire.
24
Organizationally, Girl Scouting and Boy Scouting are not part of the same organization in any way. Girl Scouting does not have the militaristic/homophobic nature of Boy Scouting and GS is much more inclusive, does much more outreach to low income girls, etc (examples -- GS for foster kids, GS Beyond Bars program for girls with moms who are incarcerated). And there are awesome, affordable out-of-this world experiences girls can have if they stick with it. Wilderness trips, sailing, learning lots of life skills, marketable skills, leadership skills, etc. Being a GS is awesome and truly for ALL girls.
Having said that, growing up as part of the GS movement and still being involved, there are some (lots of??) troop leaders who do have a knack for lame-ing it up. Do we really need to sew sit-upons and glue google eyes to cotton balls? Just avoid them and do your own adventurous, fun thing.
I'm sure someone could say the same thing about Boy Scouts -- just avoid the lame-os and run your meetings so they are filled with adventurous and fun activities. I just don't have that personal experience, and I know for a FACT they are religiously affiliated and discriminate against gays, while the Girl Scouts don't.
Having said that, growing up as part of the GS movement and still being involved, there are some (lots of??) troop leaders who do have a knack for lame-ing it up. Do we really need to sew sit-upons and glue google eyes to cotton balls? Just avoid them and do your own adventurous, fun thing.
I'm sure someone could say the same thing about Boy Scouts -- just avoid the lame-os and run your meetings so they are filled with adventurous and fun activities. I just don't have that personal experience, and I know for a FACT they are religiously affiliated and discriminate against gays, while the Girl Scouts don't.
25
So the consensus here seems to be "I was in the Girl/Boy Scouts and THEY'RE okay but the Boy/Girl Scouts, which I have never participated in, is backwards and lame and should be disbanded."
Got it.
Got it.
26
I don't want a boy in Girl Scouts. It's for girls. Having a boy in there starts changing the atmosphere. It becomes about the boys, and not the girls.
I was a Girl Scout, went to summer camp, etc. There was none of the "homemaking" stuff mentioned earlier. (maybe if there had been I'd have been able to sew my badges on better!) It may depend where you are; I was in a coast city and not a rural area.
BTW, today, Girl Scouts are considered a quite "radical" organization by our conservative friends; the organization is always being attacked by groups like Conservative Women's Assoc. for promoting feminism and/or lesbianism.
I was a Girl Scout, went to summer camp, etc. There was none of the "homemaking" stuff mentioned earlier. (maybe if there had been I'd have been able to sew my badges on better!) It may depend where you are; I was in a coast city and not a rural area.
BTW, today, Girl Scouts are considered a quite "radical" organization by our conservative friends; the organization is always being attacked by groups like Conservative Women's Assoc. for promoting feminism and/or lesbianism.
28
scouting has all sorts of alternatives, and campfire is but one.
It depends on your 'angle'; do you think scouting builds good literal SCOUTS ala paramilitary BS, or do you think they teach SKILLS for LIFE or do you like the SOCIAL aspect , a connection to NATURE and ENVIRONMENTAL STEWARDSHIP or what? There's a flavor for each:
DeMolay (masons! oh my! Walt Disney was an alumi- girls' version is the I.O.R.G. aka Rainbow Girls with Sandra DayOConner as alumni)
YMCA/YWCA indian guides/adventure guides (varies but generally god-fearing but non-evangelical about it)
Spiral Scouts (neopagan slant; founded here in WA in 99)
Frontier girls (relatiely new: founded 2007)
Navigators USA (urban diversity/anti-ignorance focus; founded in East Harlem, NYC)
YoungMarines (marine corps league)
AWANA (super religious christ paladins!) see also: American Heritage Girls (scary); see also Calvinist Cadets (eek)
BSA also sponsers Venturing, a co-ed program for somewhat older kids... still tied to BSA policy/lawsuits though.
Woodcraft Rangers (very outdoorsmanship oriented, no god stuff - none local that I know of, but there's some 18,000 in CA)
HaNoar HaTzioni could be started here...
or Na Fianna Éireann =)
other groups you might consider: 4H, Civil Air Patrol ?
It depends on your 'angle'; do you think scouting builds good literal SCOUTS ala paramilitary BS, or do you think they teach SKILLS for LIFE or do you like the SOCIAL aspect , a connection to NATURE and ENVIRONMENTAL STEWARDSHIP or what? There's a flavor for each:
DeMolay (masons! oh my! Walt Disney was an alumi- girls' version is the I.O.R.G. aka Rainbow Girls with Sandra DayOConner as alumni)
YMCA/YWCA indian guides/adventure guides (varies but generally god-fearing but non-evangelical about it)
Spiral Scouts (neopagan slant; founded here in WA in 99)
Frontier girls (relatiely new: founded 2007)
Navigators USA (urban diversity/anti-ignorance focus; founded in East Harlem, NYC)
YoungMarines (marine corps league)
AWANA (super religious christ paladins!) see also: American Heritage Girls (scary); see also Calvinist Cadets (eek)
BSA also sponsers Venturing, a co-ed program for somewhat older kids... still tied to BSA policy/lawsuits though.
Woodcraft Rangers (very outdoorsmanship oriented, no god stuff - none local that I know of, but there's some 18,000 in CA)
HaNoar HaTzioni could be started here...
or Na Fianna Éireann =)
other groups you might consider: 4H, Civil Air Patrol ?
29
Whatever the virtues and faults of individual troops, the two national organizations have diametrically opposed world views and can't/shouldn't be combined. You might as well suggest Seattle join Oklahoma.
Boy Scouts - Moral purity, belief in God, militarism, authoritarianism. Standard program for every troop. Discrimination based on sexuality and non-belief is official policy whether local organizations actually follow them. Resulted in troops segregated by religion, troops losing charters for not keeping up fundraising in poor neighborhoods, and the expulsion of gays and atheists.
Girl Scouts - Inclusion and empowerment for young females. If a troop is doing "homemaker" projects its the consensus of parents and scouts. I earned both sewing and bike repair badges in an urban troop. Resulted in diverse troops(economic, religious, racial, and sexual), support for scout troops serving communities that can't financially support a troop(daughters of prisoners, immigrants), and like most other women's organizations, open lesbians in leadership positions.
BTW Campfire is a co-ed kids organization, maybe not as progressive as Girl Scouts, but a hell of a lot better than Boy Scouts. Doesn't have discriminatory policies.
Boy Scouts - Moral purity, belief in God, militarism, authoritarianism. Standard program for every troop. Discrimination based on sexuality and non-belief is official policy whether local organizations actually follow them. Resulted in troops segregated by religion, troops losing charters for not keeping up fundraising in poor neighborhoods, and the expulsion of gays and atheists.
Girl Scouts - Inclusion and empowerment for young females. If a troop is doing "homemaker" projects its the consensus of parents and scouts. I earned both sewing and bike repair badges in an urban troop. Resulted in diverse troops(economic, religious, racial, and sexual), support for scout troops serving communities that can't financially support a troop(daughters of prisoners, immigrants), and like most other women's organizations, open lesbians in leadership positions.
BTW Campfire is a co-ed kids organization, maybe not as progressive as Girl Scouts, but a hell of a lot better than Boy Scouts. Doesn't have discriminatory policies.
30
I think that if you accept that there are girl scouts and boy scouts, the GS position is perfectly reasonable. Bobby, as far as I'm aware, identifies as a boy, even though he loves girls stuff. He's a boy, not a girl, and therefore shouldn't be a girl scout. GS said that if he were transgendered, they'd be fine admitting him (or, in that case, her). They are a billion times more enlightened than the Boy Scouts.
Another thing entirely is whether yout think there should be gender division in the scouts at all. If you allow male-identified children in the "Girl" Scouts, they aren't girls scouts are they? Ditto for Boy Scouts, an organization so backward they won't allow gay kids (which almost certainly will exclude Bobby) or atheists, let alone having a provision for transgendered kids.
Another thing entirely is whether yout think there should be gender division in the scouts at all. If you allow male-identified children in the "Girl" Scouts, they aren't girls scouts are they? Ditto for Boy Scouts, an organization so backward they won't allow gay kids (which almost certainly will exclude Bobby) or atheists, let alone having a provision for transgendered kids.
32
The mom set him up for dissapointment by taking him to enroll in Girl Scouts without doing some research or at least making a phone call first. Crappy parenting.
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