Slog
News & ArtsFriday, October 28, 2011
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: Cock the Vote
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 4:01 PM
I'm a 34-year-old guy in the Bay Area with a great job, three kids, and a beautiful wife. But I have a problem. I am completely different animal sexually than my wife. It's the typical "he wants it all the time, she doesn't" situation. However, my issues runs a little deeper than difference between the sexes, and crosses the line into my being much more sexually adventurous and having an appetite for receiving head that won't quit. My wife happens to be the only woman I've been with who is terrible at sucking dick, and refuses to swallow. I'm a complete fiend when it comes to getting deep throated and my load swallowed. She refuses, and as I'm pretty well endowed, she gags and doesn't enjoy giving oral at all.
A year ago I went out to dinner with my trainer after a session at the gym. I shared the above problem with him and the next thing you know we were back at his place and he was swallowing my cock. I had no idea he was bi. It's completely DL, but he's an animal, no gag reflex, and he knocks back my cum like water after a run on a hot day. He's in a long-term relationship with a woman also, and this is between us only. I've known him for years and neither of us plan on finding other guys. Since sex is so good otherwise with my wife, and as I have no expectation that she'll ever learn to like sucking me off, and since she hates giving head in general, this seems like the perfect solution. But recently I've been feeling pretty guilty. I'm not sure I can give up such mind-blowing head and a no-drama, no-nonsense masculine guy who can't swallow enough, but in the same sense, it's eating at me. I have no desire to have a long-term relationship with a guy, but I tell you, four or five times a week is incredible.
Spouse Or Swallower
My response after the jump...
···················
Um... gee.
I should probably tell you to knock it off; to accept that no one gets everything he wants in a relationship; to focus on what's good and what works in your sex life at home; to honor the monogamous commitment you made to your wife or, if you can't do that, to have the courage to honestly renegotiate terms with your wife; to think about your CHILDREN and what'll happen if your affair gets discovered; to consider the very real possibility that you're not the only guy your trainer is blowing and the chance that you'll bring a STI home; and, finally, to recognize that it's difficult enough to move on from a personal trainer—or a hairdresser, or a landscaper—when you don't have to factor blowjobs "four or five times a week" into the equation.
But... I'm going to recuse myself because the whole situation is just too fucking hot for me to be impartial. Instead the Savage Love General Assembly is going to meet, debate your situation in comment, and then everyone is going to vote.
4
Look, people, every question is hypothetical to all readers save one. Accept the premise and debate. Or beat off. Or beat off then debate.
5
I think he should talk to his wife about opening up the relationship minimally and only for oral sex. She might be relieved to be let off the hook (so-to-speak) and not to be bothered with him asking for oral. Depending on how he think's she'll respond, h can suggest that it only be with another guy. Hopefully she'll see that men are actually less of a threat to her than women since SOS seems pretty straight. I don't think he has to confess to prior "sins" when he asks for permission. If he gets the green light, awesome! I hope his wife is understanding enough to hand over her "wifely duties" for just this one sex act that she doesn't enjoy. But I don't think she's obligated to and I think if she's not okay with it, he should stop.
6
Besides the obvious bragging, you'd refer to the trainer as a friend, not your trainer if you've 'known him for years'.
7
I like how he thinks of himself as "much more sexually adventurous" because he gets blow jobs from his trainer. I'd ask him to think about his wife fucking other guys. Is that okay with him? What if it's happening four or five times a week? Still okay? Great! Then I'll punch your "sexually adventurous" card, and go do the hard work of discussing your desires with your wife and listening to what she wants out of life as well.
"My wife happens to be the only woman I've been with who is terrible at sucking dick... and doesn't enjoy [it] at all."
Then why on earth did you marry her? Please, people, think about your forty-year-old self before you get married. Please.
"My wife happens to be the only woman I've been with who is terrible at sucking dick... and doesn't enjoy [it] at all."
Then why on earth did you marry her? Please, people, think about your forty-year-old self before you get married. Please.
8
@4: that's fine in most cases, and this premise might be somewhat plausible if it weren't written like a Penthouse Forum letter. But it's too transparently fake to be worth debating.
9
SOS should continue to pester his wife for those blow jobs at the same or slightly reduced rate, or else she'll know something's up. Send video.
10
Perhaps fake, nevertheless...
I agree with both 5 and 7. Just ask the wife what she'd think about him getting bj's from someone else. And tell her it's ok if she gets something done from someone else too... something she wants but he sucks at.
And for fuck's sake, like 7 said, don't get married to someone who doesn't give you something sexually that you feel you need, unless you agree beforehand that extramarital whatevers are on the table.
I agree with both 5 and 7. Just ask the wife what she'd think about him getting bj's from someone else. And tell her it's ok if she gets something done from someone else too... something she wants but he sucks at.
And for fuck's sake, like 7 said, don't get married to someone who doesn't give you something sexually that you feel you need, unless you agree beforehand that extramarital whatevers are on the table.
11
They're almost always fake, but usually they're by people who are clever enough to make them sound realistic. This one is just laughable.
14
I refuse to believe it's real until Dan posts at least two weeks' worth of encounters onto Slog for our, er, perusal.
15
If the BJs keep him from getting it elsewhere, and keep his home life happy, just keep it off the radar and don't get caught.
17
Sadly, he can't Ask Beth, since Dan is weaseling out.
But you know, if this is real, chances are he'll bring HPV home to the wifey if she doesn't have it already, and unlike the clap or various other STDs, she may never know THEY have it until she gets cervical cancer or he grows a tumor on his cock.
Also, if Corbin Fisher is any guide, in a few weeks he'll be swallowing the trainer's spunk too.
But you know, if this is real, chances are he'll bring HPV home to the wifey if she doesn't have it already, and unlike the clap or various other STDs, she may never know THEY have it until she gets cervical cancer or he grows a tumor on his cock.
Also, if Corbin Fisher is any guide, in a few weeks he'll be swallowing the trainer's spunk too.
18
Also:
"...and the next thing you know we were back at his place and he was swallowing my cock."
"...and then suddenly oops, I slipped in the shower and the next thing I knew this huge dildo was in my ass!"
Fake, a closet case in denial, or both.
"...and the next thing you know we were back at his place and he was swallowing my cock."
"...and then suddenly oops, I slipped in the shower and the next thing I knew this huge dildo was in my ass!"
Fake, a closet case in denial, or both.
20
Sorry, I voted before the debate.
I'm a little confused, so I'm hoping someone will clarrify this for me: He says it's the 'typical' "he wants it all the time, she doesn't" situation, but the real unevenness is that she doesn't like to suck dick. How does that equate to 'sex is so good otherwise with my wife'?
I'm pretty certain that by someone's yardstick, 200+ blow jobs in a year constitutes a long term relationship with this guy. I suspect that Mr Man realizes this, else why would his sign off indicate that he feels that he needs to make a choice?
The wife can learn to suck dick like a champion, but she has to want to. And lots of women apparently don't like to go down--I don't understand it, but there you are. I don't like doing the dishes, but I do them because they need to get done.
If they were to open the relationship minimally and only for oral, does the wife get to go to whomever she chooses for oral? Would this be a different situation if the dick sucker was a 22 year old woman that he picked up at the gym?
I'm a little confused, so I'm hoping someone will clarrify this for me: He says it's the 'typical' "he wants it all the time, she doesn't" situation, but the real unevenness is that she doesn't like to suck dick. How does that equate to 'sex is so good otherwise with my wife'?
I'm pretty certain that by someone's yardstick, 200+ blow jobs in a year constitutes a long term relationship with this guy. I suspect that Mr Man realizes this, else why would his sign off indicate that he feels that he needs to make a choice?
The wife can learn to suck dick like a champion, but she has to want to. And lots of women apparently don't like to go down--I don't understand it, but there you are. I don't like doing the dishes, but I do them because they need to get done.
If they were to open the relationship minimally and only for oral, does the wife get to go to whomever she chooses for oral? Would this be a different situation if the dick sucker was a 22 year old woman that he picked up at the gym?
21
By the time you reach the point of telling someone about the affair, the answer is always "End it before your wife finds out".
22
@7: Not quite a fair comparison. Presumably he would like to be the one fucking her. If she is doing someone else 4 or times a week, that leaves him out in the cold. If he is perfectly happy providing the 4 or 5 fuckings per week himself, and he is enthusiastic and reasonably good at it, she has no good reason to outsource it.
If you want a fair trade, the thing that she would be getting outside would have to be something that he detests and would prefer to be excused from.
If you want a fair trade, the thing that she would be getting outside would have to be something that he detests and would prefer to be excused from.
24
" I am completely different animal sexually than my wife. It's the typical "he wants it all the time, she doesn't" situation. However, my issues runs a little deeper than difference between the sexes, and crosses the line into my being much more sexually adventurous and having an appetite for receiving head that won't quit. My wife happens to be the only woman I've been with who is terrible at sucking dick, and refuses to swallow. I'm a complete fiend when it comes to getting deep throated and my load swallowed. She refuses, and as I'm pretty well endowed, she gags and doesn't enjoy giving oral at all."
I'll go with the faaaaaaake crew, because he married this woman, fully knowing what she liked to do and didn't like to do.
Voted: Hot, but still cheating.
I'll go with the faaaaaaake crew, because he married this woman, fully knowing what she liked to do and didn't like to do.
Voted: Hot, but still cheating.
25
@20: "How does that equate to 'sex is so good otherwise with my wife'? "
Because if the guy exists, he's just the kind of "adventurous" guy that wants an excuse to cheat on his partner, every partner.
Because if the guy exists, he's just the kind of "adventurous" guy that wants an excuse to cheat on his partner, every partner.
26
@22 This isn't a financial transaction that has to be equal. He wants something more out of life; then he needs to listen to what she really wants. I agree that her outside fun shouldn't cut into their marital sex, but maybe she can fuck other guys in the afternoon and him in the evening. That's probably not what she actually wants -- maybe she wants big black cock once a month. Maybe she wants to go out on Friday nights to a BDSM club. Maybe she wants to get back in touch with a boyfriend from high school. My point is -- he doesn't get to unilaterally renegotiate their sex life. Tell her what you want, then listen to what she wants, then figure out whether you can stay together and both be happy.
27
@22: I think the point EricaP was making in #7 is that this guy is excusing his behavior on the grounds that he's more sexually adventurous than his wife, and his definition of "adventurous" seems to be that he loves having his cock sucked frequently.
28
4 or 5 times a week? I'm guessing she already knows. But if you're going to do something in secret, basic sense says don't do it all the time.
That guilt is also not going to get any better without killing a part of yourself.
So tell her and get the sign off or cut it out--or cut it back!
That guilt is also not going to get any better without killing a part of yourself.
So tell her and get the sign off or cut it out--or cut it back!
29
@26: Maybe she doesn't want anything more than to know that her husband isn't lying or cheating. Maybe she's got no sexual desires that aren't being met. Maybe what she really wants is some help with those three kids.
30
Also, I normalized swallowing in my relationship by doing it first and by doing it often. He should try informing his wife that the cunnilingus is available at the snap of her fingers, and act disappointed if she does't take him up on it. Demonstrate by doing, buddy.
Also, also--I live in the Bay Area and would like to know what gym he goes to and who his trainer is. It's okay, they basically thrive on referrals.
Also, also--I live in the Bay Area and would like to know what gym he goes to and who his trainer is. It's okay, they basically thrive on referrals.
31
I agree with @7. You don't get to unilaterally alter the terms of your agreement with your partner, and you certainly don't get to do so without her knowing about it. That's a fucking cowardly thing to do. Imagine how you'd feel if your wife were getting her pussy eaten out five times per week by the gardener or the poolboy. And before you raise the bullshit distinction about things you're willing to provide, assume her needs require things you cna't provide. Like a lover of a different race, age, or sex.
So. You have two options:
1. Knock it off with the blowjobs.
2. Tell your wife you want to get blowjobs outside the relationship, and listen to what she wants to get outside the relationship. Then renegotiate the parameters of the relationship. And if she's unwilling to share you, decide whether the blowjobs are more important than your marriage.
And oh by the way: the fact that you need your cum guzzled means you are not practicing safe sex. Yes, the risk of STIs from receiving head is relatively low, but it isn't non-existent, and that's a risk your wife is sharing that she doesn't know about. Ans she absolutely has a right to know.
So. You have two options:
1. Knock it off with the blowjobs.
2. Tell your wife you want to get blowjobs outside the relationship, and listen to what she wants to get outside the relationship. Then renegotiate the parameters of the relationship. And if she's unwilling to share you, decide whether the blowjobs are more important than your marriage.
And oh by the way: the fact that you need your cum guzzled means you are not practicing safe sex. Yes, the risk of STIs from receiving head is relatively low, but it isn't non-existent, and that's a risk your wife is sharing that she doesn't know about. Ans she absolutely has a right to know.
34
i never used to like sucking dick, but i did it anyway because the guys really like it. then i realized eating pussy is so much more fun and came out and lived happily ever after.
i recommend his wife come over to my place.
i recommend his wife come over to my place.
35
OMG, not ten minutes ago, I was wondering how/ if it would be possible to set up a NSA/BJ only /ongoing thing with a hot guy. I'm not submissive or anything. That's just what I really want right now.
Would the LW feel less guilty if it were a woman?
Dan, I know you don't usually do LW/commenter hook-ups.... but help a girl out.
Would the LW feel less guilty if it were a woman?
Dan, I know you don't usually do LW/commenter hook-ups.... but help a girl out.
36
Divorce your wife and continue getting head from your trainer until you find a woman who can knock it back as good as him - or is willing to meat you halfway.
Shoulda thought about your lack of head when you married her.
A friend of mine told me a mutual friend doesn't believe in giving head but wants herself to be eaten out. I think she's still a virgin.
Shoulda thought about your lack of head when you married her.
A friend of mine told me a mutual friend doesn't believe in giving head but wants herself to be eaten out. I think she's still a virgin.
37
@26: Well, if you are going to take the approach of "just ask for what you want" then there's no reason he shouldn't ask for getting head (or more) from anybody he wants, too -- including women, not just his supposedly non-threatening trainer.
Sure, open the discussion wide open. Nothing wrong with that approach. Just the way you posed your response sounded to me like "If you expect her to be cool with your one option, you have to be cool with potentially any of her other options -- including things that constitute an escalation over what you yourself have proposed -- or you forfeit your "adventurous" card." That is a) overstating your case, and b) an unreasonable negotiating stance. The parameters of the agreement don't _have_ to be perfectly symmetric -- but if they are assymmetric in a way that one partner finds objectionable, the assymmetry itself is reasonable grounds for rejecting them.
Sure, open the discussion wide open. Nothing wrong with that approach. Just the way you posed your response sounded to me like "If you expect her to be cool with your one option, you have to be cool with potentially any of her other options -- including things that constitute an escalation over what you yourself have proposed -- or you forfeit your "adventurous" card." That is a) overstating your case, and b) an unreasonable negotiating stance. The parameters of the agreement don't _have_ to be perfectly symmetric -- but if they are assymmetric in a way that one partner finds objectionable, the assymmetry itself is reasonable grounds for rejecting them.
39
Well, anyone that sucks at giving head deserves to be cheated on. At least we can all agree on that, right?
41
"And before you raise the bullshit distinction about things you're willing to provide, assume her needs require things you cna't provide. Like a lover of a different race, age, or sex."
Wrong. You don't assume that. You establish it. Assuming it is begging the question. Logic fail.
And it isn't bullshit. If this guy was getting the blowjobs he wanted from his wife, the whole situation wouldn't have come up and he wouldn't have written in to Dan. (I don't see a letter from her saying that he isn't meeting her needs. When I see such a letter, I will consider that a factor.) Funny how that works. Satisfied couples don't write to advice columnists.
Wrong. You don't assume that. You establish it. Assuming it is begging the question. Logic fail.
And it isn't bullshit. If this guy was getting the blowjobs he wanted from his wife, the whole situation wouldn't have come up and he wouldn't have written in to Dan. (I don't see a letter from her saying that he isn't meeting her needs. When I see such a letter, I will consider that a factor.) Funny how that works. Satisfied couples don't write to advice columnists.
42
nocutename @27 - yep, thanks!
@29 - we've been instructed on Slog not to act as if low-libido moms need more help with the chores or the children. Slog guys swear they help all the time, with everything, and it doesn't improve their sex life. As for her desire to know he isn't cheating... I think, like @28, that she probably has an inkling of what's up, if this has really been going on 4 or 5 times a week for a year. If only because he has stopped bugging her for blow jobs.
He's definitely a dick. Maybe she knows everything. Maybe they both like the stability of their marriage more than they like change. Wouldn't suit me, but he sounds ready to keep going with the blow jobs and just deal with the guilt and the blame when it all comes out.
@29 - we've been instructed on Slog not to act as if low-libido moms need more help with the chores or the children. Slog guys swear they help all the time, with everything, and it doesn't improve their sex life. As for her desire to know he isn't cheating... I think, like @28, that she probably has an inkling of what's up, if this has really been going on 4 or 5 times a week for a year. If only because he has stopped bugging her for blow jobs.
He's definitely a dick. Maybe she knows everything. Maybe they both like the stability of their marriage more than they like change. Wouldn't suit me, but he sounds ready to keep going with the blow jobs and just deal with the guilt and the blame when it all comes out.
43
Why isn't 'talk to his wife about blowjobs' on the list? Maybe they can negotiate an open relationship. Or maybe if the wife knew how important they were to him she might be willing to up her game.
Would he be willing to compromise? Cum but not in her mouth? Something like that.
Would he be willing to compromise? Cum but not in her mouth? Something like that.
44
Given that there are real health concerns here, he should tell the wife regardless. There has been a lot of discussion recently on SLOG about HPV; it is astonishing SOS didn't even consider that. As a result of his selfish escapades, she could have something that is, at the very least, unpleasant [chlamydia anyone?] or, at worst, deadly.
Also, his lack of gratitude is galling. Given his personality and physical accoutrements, he is lucky she has sex with him at all.
Also, his lack of gratitude is galling. Given his personality and physical accoutrements, he is lucky she has sex with him at all.
45
@41 - I thought I was satisfied, until I learned that we were opening up the marriage. Then I was able to think of some things I had long ago pushed into a back corner of my brain, the corner labeled "I guess I'm not getting more of that in this lifetime."
46
SOS is a POS douchbag. You have a wife. and children. And your relationship doesn't suck (pun intended), other than the lack of oral. Quit trying to mess up what you have.
47
@45: That might be the wife's case, here, too, but I didn't mean that if her husband helped with housework, she might get a higher libido or want to deep throat him and swallow and be able to do it to his liking. I just meant that here on Slog we have been "trained" to think of everyone as having some kink, whether met or not, and some people may just not.
She might be perfectly happy with the libido that she has and there might be no hidden desires that her jerky husband is unaware of, much less unable to satisfy.
She might be perfectly happy with the libido that she has and there might be no hidden desires that her jerky husband is unaware of, much less unable to satisfy.
48
@45: " I thought I was satisfied, until I learned that we were opening up the marriage. Then I was able to think of some things I had long ago pushed into a back corner of my brain, the corner labeled "I guess I'm not getting more of that in this lifetime"
I've only passively read your posts. so forgive me if I'm misinterpreting, but as a non-situational submissive, don't you unquestioningly obey what you're told? You thought you were satisfied until he told you *he* was unsatisfied, and you adapted. I don't think anyone outside of that sort of immersive lifestyle should be forced choose the "I guess I'm not getting more of that in this lifetime" option.
Besides, the LW didn't offer his wife any options in return to open up the marriage, nor does he want to.
I've only passively read your posts. so forgive me if I'm misinterpreting, but as a non-situational submissive, don't you unquestioningly obey what you're told? You thought you were satisfied until he told you *he* was unsatisfied, and you adapted. I don't think anyone outside of that sort of immersive lifestyle should be forced choose the "I guess I'm not getting more of that in this lifetime" option.
Besides, the LW didn't offer his wife any options in return to open up the marriage, nor does he want to.
49
She has a right to choose whether to consent to what's happening in their marriage. Deceit is not cool.
He should try to get the green light from her: he knows she's not a fan, and it troubles him to ask her to do something she isn't into, so can he get her off the hook and get it --safely, sanely-- elsewhere from a nonthreatening friend who has offered.
Answer her questions, process feelings. If she puts up hoops for him to jump through (like she wants to meet the friend, or never hear about the friend, or she gets to do xyz with somebody else, or prove again that he's still totally into her, or whatever), then he should jump through those hoops happily.
If she says No -- well, too bad, buddy. Don't be a CPOS.
He should try to get the green light from her: he knows she's not a fan, and it troubles him to ask her to do something she isn't into, so can he get her off the hook and get it --safely, sanely-- elsewhere from a nonthreatening friend who has offered.
Answer her questions, process feelings. If she puts up hoops for him to jump through (like she wants to meet the friend, or never hear about the friend, or she gets to do xyz with somebody else, or prove again that he's still totally into her, or whatever), then he should jump through those hoops happily.
If she says No -- well, too bad, buddy. Don't be a CPOS.
50
I certainly buy into the idea that he'd ask her if she minds. There was a letter a couple of months ago about a similar situation, wasn't there? The one where the girlfriend let her gay best friend go to town on her boyfriend because she didn't care so much for giving blowjobs? Am I mis-remembering?
53
@41 sayeth:
Reading comprehension fail.
Wrong. You don't assume that. You establish it. Assuming it is begging the question. Logic fail.You might want to read my post at @31 more closely. You know, the part that starts with "Imagine that..."
Reading comprehension fail.
54
Well, if he is feeling guilty, he should probably stop. Or at least examine what is going on more closely. But dear god, stop or don't stop -- send video either way.
(It's probably fake yeah, but a fun one.)
As far as being the "only" woman he knows who doesn't like to give oral -- well, she's in good company. There's lots of factors for not liking to give oral. He should probably also be asking himself if not getting BJ's is worth the price of admission.
But send those videos in.
(It's probably fake yeah, but a fun one.)
As far as being the "only" woman he knows who doesn't like to give oral -- well, she's in good company. There's lots of factors for not liking to give oral. He should probably also be asking himself if not getting BJ's is worth the price of admission.
But send those videos in.
55
Doesn't really matter if it's fake, right? And we'll never really know, so can't we all just do the right thing and imagine it to be true? It is the right thing to do. Pictures, please (even if fake). Thanks for the wanking-fodder, Dan!
56
248, you're right that I'm a bad example. But I bet 50% of Slog readers in monogamous marriages have something they think of as "guess I'm not getting more of that in this lifetime." Sex with a particular person, kissing a stranger, caressing different breasts/penis than the usual, more aggression in bed, a certain cologne they remember fondly... It's just that the "price of admission," as Dan says, is worth it, so you put that wish in a dark corner of your brain, and you don't take it out again until... it turns out your partner wants to open up the marriage. Or your marriage ends, one way or another.
59
Wow, there are clearly a HUGE number of unmarried Sloggers (not surprising)--but what is surprising (or maybe not) is their sanctimonious purity. "Never get married to someone who isn't perfect in every way." "I can't imagine marrying someone who didn't satisfy my every sexual need." Well, get used to being single, I guess. No one is perfect, sanctimonious Sloggers, not even--*gasp*--you.
60
I agree, it's fake. If I'm treating it as a hypothetical, it's still impossible to say. This is a case of Schrödinger's Wife: the only way to know if it's OK is to know what his wife thinks of it. But asking his wife after the fact is likely to change her disposition for the worse, and at worst eliminate his reason for worrying about what the wife and three kids think.
61
You're not in an open relationship. You're cheating. It's a pity you live in a community property state because when your wife finds out, she ought to get everything while your naked ass freezes to death outside, assuming you've not been too goddamn selfish to buy sufficient life insurance to provide your kids with a good future.
Had you discussed this matter with her BEFORE dicking around with your trainer & if y'all came to an agreement, then I'd say, "No problem."
But, instead, you've put your needs in front of your kids' needs. Why do we let assholes have kids?
Had you discussed this matter with her BEFORE dicking around with your trainer & if y'all came to an agreement, then I'd say, "No problem."
But, instead, you've put your needs in front of your kids' needs. Why do we let assholes have kids?
62
I agree with the comments noting the serious contradictions in his assessment of his sex life with his wife. If it is truly great in every other way, then he is a self-centered CPOS. He's got no grounds for going out on her like this. That level of behavior is reserved for crisis situations, in which it would be an emotional crime to abandon a partner, but there is no way to get intimate needs met inside the relationship (serious illness, etc.). Just cus he wants hot juicy BJs, does not mean he is entitled to take them at any cost. Dude: Talk to your wife, see what's possible, and make your peace with it. Or make your exit. You've got nothing to justify anything else.
63
@59, if something is really important to you, don't knowingly put yourself in a situation where you can't have it. It's not that complicated, just takes some self-respect.
64
@56 is right. Every commitment comes with a little "guess I'm not getting more of that in this lifetime."
As for my vote: totally hot; makes me wish I had a personal trainer. But, even speaking as someone in a committed relationship which came packaged up with a disastrous sex life, this guy needs to cut it out until he can make an arrangement with his wife.
As for my vote: totally hot; makes me wish I had a personal trainer. But, even speaking as someone in a committed relationship which came packaged up with a disastrous sex life, this guy needs to cut it out until he can make an arrangement with his wife.
65
I would learn toward fake but you really never know. I met up with an old grade school friend. We fooled around a few times when we were 15 but he's married with kids now. It'd been 20 years since I had seen him. But he wanted me to go down on him but not reciprocate. The sad part of it is, he couldn't keep aroused and just said it wasn't doing it for him and that he thought he wouldn't mind a guy again but guessed he just liked women more. That's how you know my story is real, it didn't have the hot outcome. But still, you have a basically straight guy who wanted to give it a try with me going down on him. Said he had not had a BJ in a long time. I lean bullshit, but it could be legit. There's not nearly as many "straight but like their dick sucked by a guy" guys out there as we like to fantasize about, but they do exist. I think even my old friend might have gotten off but suspect he felt guilty too or just got psyched out.
66
I chose the third option: So hot, but he should stop. But my position is a little more nuanced. Is his wife open to her getting side head? Would she freak out if she found about his side head? Could you work out an "I'll pretend not to be doing it, and you pretend not to know I'm doing it" arrangement?
On the other hand, I'm pretty sure I've seen a porn movie like this. I'm pretty sure I've seen several. My bullshit detector is going off. Getting secret blowjobs from a secretly bi personal trainer who likes to go deep and is hungry to swallow cum? Pics or it didn't happen. Video or it didn't happen. In fact, invite me to watch so I can confirm personally. Actually, I think I should test this man's oral capabilities because I'm not quite buying it. Let this deep-throating, cum-swallowing personal trainer go down on me and then maybe I'll believe it happened.
On the other hand, I'm pretty sure I've seen a porn movie like this. I'm pretty sure I've seen several. My bullshit detector is going off. Getting secret blowjobs from a secretly bi personal trainer who likes to go deep and is hungry to swallow cum? Pics or it didn't happen. Video or it didn't happen. In fact, invite me to watch so I can confirm personally. Actually, I think I should test this man's oral capabilities because I'm not quite buying it. Let this deep-throating, cum-swallowing personal trainer go down on me and then maybe I'll believe it happened.
67
Wait - so "tawdry and about as inelegantly phrased as possible" is the new definition of scorching hot? I suppose it might be useful to file away for future reference.
But it would really depress me to think that it was for this that Lytton Strachey inquired into the nature of the stain on Vanessa Stephen's dress.
But it would really depress me to think that it was for this that Lytton Strachey inquired into the nature of the stain on Vanessa Stephen's dress.
69
@53: Okay, I get (at least I think I get) that you are saying to the Letter Writer "Ya big hypocrite, imagine how you would feel if your wife was doing [insert sexual activity here that we stipulate you detest or can't provide, in order to make it an analogy to the fact that she doesn't like to swallow] with the poolboy. You'd hate it, wouldn't you? Be honest now." You are presuming that you know exactly how he would feel, and that he would be equally unhappy about her outsourcing it regardless of whether or not it was something he wanted to do or could do. I don't believe you have enough information to make those assertions. There are tons of people on these boards who have said that they feel differently about something they can't provide (example: a guy who can't be female for his bi wife) than about something they are capable of and want to provide. That indicates two things: a) that distinction does in fact matter to many people, therefore not the bullshit you claim it is; and b) you don't get to tell him how he would react. You only get to tell him how you would react in his shoes. (Fair disclosure: I make that same mistake myself regularly.)
70
Back to LW's original situation, yeah, what 20 said. How do you reconcile "It's the typical "he wants it all the time, she doesn't" situation" with "Since sex is so good otherwise with my wife," anyway? It's kind of hard to picture him as seriously deprived if the second quote is true.
More importantly, his wife should have the right to informed consent in this situation - including but not limited to the fact that he is putting her at risk of STIs. He needs to cut it out until he can make an arrangement with her.
More importantly, his wife should have the right to informed consent in this situation - including but not limited to the fact that he is putting her at risk of STIs. He needs to cut it out until he can make an arrangement with her.
71
Oh Jesus Fucking Christ. THIS is hot to Dan?
It hits practically all the Penthouse letters cliches (they ran plenty of bi and gay letters)--from the hot wife that doesn't like to suck his ginormous cock to the 4-5 times a week frequency of these mind-blowing DL blowjobs from the indisputably "masculine" cocksucker/trainer to the fixation on that erotic trope of swallowing every drop and loving it. The whole scenario screams mustaches and quadrophonic sound systems, and anticipation of the movie "Cruisin'.
Okay, so some of the grooves in Dan's erotic imagination were formed in a more primitive time, but the poll needs a fifth option: either "Bullshit" or "Rolls eyes with a giggle and a sigh--70's porn is so quaint!"
It hits practically all the Penthouse letters cliches (they ran plenty of bi and gay letters)--from the hot wife that doesn't like to suck his ginormous cock to the 4-5 times a week frequency of these mind-blowing DL blowjobs from the indisputably "masculine" cocksucker/trainer to the fixation on that erotic trope of swallowing every drop and loving it. The whole scenario screams mustaches and quadrophonic sound systems, and anticipation of the movie "Cruisin'.
Okay, so some of the grooves in Dan's erotic imagination were formed in a more primitive time, but the poll needs a fifth option: either "Bullshit" or "Rolls eyes with a giggle and a sigh--70's porn is so quaint!"
72
Suddenly, my cock was in his mouth! I had no idea he was bi!
...
...Riiiight. Because straight guys go out to dinner with their trainers for a nice manly platonic evening all the time.
...
...Riiiight. Because straight guys go out to dinner with their trainers for a nice manly platonic evening all the time.
73
Now I know why they call this rag "The Stranger". I feel like one because I bought this story. If there's one thing I'm familiar with, it's how many married straight guys are getting blow jobs from bi or gay guys. It's simply not even arguable any more. I'm more interested in the long-term implications of this guy's bromance.
Okay, this letter *is* hot, but only about as hot a tea heated for 3 minutes in a microwave.
Here's MOLTEN LAVA (a *true* story):
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/lr…
Okay, this letter *is* hot, but only about as hot a tea heated for 3 minutes in a microwave.
Here's MOLTEN LAVA (a *true* story):
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/lr…
74
Oh, another way to tell it's fake: If it was real, he wouldn't be writing an advice columnist.
"Hey, I have the perfect porn-ready solution to a problem common to many men in long-term relationships!"
"Is... is there a question you'd like to ask?"
"No, just boasting."
"Hey, I have the perfect porn-ready solution to a problem common to many men in long-term relationships!"
"Is... is there a question you'd like to ask?"
"No, just boasting."
77
If it's just blow jobs, what's the harm? Might want to get some Valtrex on the standby.
Also, four or five times a week seems like a lot. Chances are if you are meeting your trainer four or fives a week and getting blown after your crunches, odds get better someone's gonna find out the longer it goes on. Inevitability, y'know.
Also, four or five times a week seems like a lot. Chances are if you are meeting your trainer four or fives a week and getting blown after your crunches, odds get better someone's gonna find out the longer it goes on. Inevitability, y'know.
78
Maybe this 'letter' is a not-so-elaborate gag related to promoting HUMP!
An ancillary supposition is this is a not-so-subtle story idea for would-be contributors to HUMP that would turn the crank of one particular judge. Is Judge Savage sending a hint or two or three about a particular submission he'd be delighted to see?
Is Mr. Savage himself the author of Spouse or Swallower, perhaps, hmmmmm?
An ancillary supposition is this is a not-so-subtle story idea for would-be contributors to HUMP that would turn the crank of one particular judge. Is Judge Savage sending a hint or two or three about a particular submission he'd be delighted to see?
Is Mr. Savage himself the author of Spouse or Swallower, perhaps, hmmmmm?
79
Dan must be in a giving mood. Usually he informs the obvious wankers that he knows they're Beating Off Furiously to their little story. It's the details: dick too big for the wifey to handle, "masculine" trainer who identifies as straight...
But sure, if we're playing along at home, he is a CPOS unless he gets permission for this happy little arrangement. But that would take all the fun out of it.
But sure, if we're playing along at home, he is a CPOS unless he gets permission for this happy little arrangement. But that would take all the fun out of it.
80
If this guy is unwilling to include his wife in some of the workout sessions and assess the possibility of including her in the post-workout sessions, then he should quit. It could be the best way for her to learn what he wants by watching it in action, and if he's not willing to include her then he's a CPOS.
Heat assessment:
Deep, mmm, suck, mmm, swallow, mmm: Beard stubble and trainer muscles, get me out of this locker room noww.
It could be your wife isn't interested in tasting your satisfied cock because she's found your gay porn cache and wonders where it's been, and it's possible if you show her where it's been she just might want to suck the guy's tongue afterwards. Are you ready for that?
Heat assessment:
Deep, mmm, suck, mmm, swallow, mmm: Beard stubble and trainer muscles, get me out of this locker room noww.
It could be your wife isn't interested in tasting your satisfied cock because she's found your gay porn cache and wonders where it's been, and it's possible if you show her where it's been she just might want to suck the guy's tongue afterwards. Are you ready for that?
81
I voted that he must provide video footage. But I also agree that it's a fake letter...it almost reads like something out of Penthouse Forum .
83
Funny this fascination with the letter being a fake, or not. Maybe it's part of this American cultural thing for having 'the real thing:' either it's 'the real thing' (with money shot to prove it!) or I'm not interested! Bah.
Consider the situation a hypohtetical: a spouse is getting on the side something the other spouse doesn't want to provide (blow-jobs, BDSM, holding hands together and walking in the park, whatever) but hasn't informed said spouse. Is this OK?
In principle, no. I agree with @7 (and @31) above: the straying spouse doesn't get a pass to cheat (and it's cheating) unless the question has been raised with the other spouse, for all kinds of reasons -- that was the default assumption of the relationship, there is the danger of STDs, what is this on-the-side relationship going to become in the long run and how will it affect the main relationship (to say nothing of the children and the impact on them...).
Now, of course, there can be circumstances under which a spouse would have to lie to stay sane (the other spouse says no, no, no after the question is brought up, threatens divorce and refusing contact with children, is totally irrational and unreasonable) -- but he'd have to discuss such situations in his letter. Without further information, the only thing that seems to be happening is that the straying spouse doesn't want the other spouse to know about the cheating -- which is the typical have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too attitude of CPOS's worldwide.
So yes, in the end, I don't see why this husband can't simply be branded a CPOS and told to talk to his wife as soon as possible. Assuming, of course, that said people do exist.
Consider the situation a hypohtetical: a spouse is getting on the side something the other spouse doesn't want to provide (blow-jobs, BDSM, holding hands together and walking in the park, whatever) but hasn't informed said spouse. Is this OK?
In principle, no. I agree with @7 (and @31) above: the straying spouse doesn't get a pass to cheat (and it's cheating) unless the question has been raised with the other spouse, for all kinds of reasons -- that was the default assumption of the relationship, there is the danger of STDs, what is this on-the-side relationship going to become in the long run and how will it affect the main relationship (to say nothing of the children and the impact on them...).
Now, of course, there can be circumstances under which a spouse would have to lie to stay sane (the other spouse says no, no, no after the question is brought up, threatens divorce and refusing contact with children, is totally irrational and unreasonable) -- but he'd have to discuss such situations in his letter. Without further information, the only thing that seems to be happening is that the straying spouse doesn't want the other spouse to know about the cheating -- which is the typical have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too attitude of CPOS's worldwide.
So yes, in the end, I don't see why this husband can't simply be branded a CPOS and told to talk to his wife as soon as possible. Assuming, of course, that said people do exist.
84
In other words, all the things Dan said in his "I should probably tell you to..." paragraph, which I take to mean Dan understands this is indeed a (prototypical) CPOS situation, since what he mentions are all CPOS-related problems. The absence of the label, I assume, comes simply from the hotness of the situation.
But since I'm neither gay nor a big fan of blow-jobs (they've never done much for me -- they're nice to get, but that's all), this has no effect on me. CPOS it is, IMHO.
But since I'm neither gay nor a big fan of blow-jobs (they've never done much for me -- they're nice to get, but that's all), this has no effect on me. CPOS it is, IMHO.
85
As my last comment suggested, it matters whether the letter is a fake, because if it's fiction, the LW can manipulate the details to elicit any response he likes. His wife is the only woman he knows who is bad at head? He's known the trainer for years, an neither of them plan on seeing other guys? The guy is "no-drama?" These details seem designed to make the situation seem sympathetic, and to avoid a response complicated by concerns of harm to the wife. (STDs, ugly scenes, etc.) It's just a wank letter.
But, if it weren't: LW, you are having an affair. Illicit sex often seems hotter than relationship sex, especially when you are realizing a secret desire, such as your sexual feelings for men. Sorry, but any guy who prefers to be blown by a man than his wife, and who is enjoying being blown by a man 4 or 5 times a week, is not quite straight. Suggesting that your wife is bad at blow jobs and refuses to get better, is just a way of saying "It's partly her fault that I am unfaithful.' No, it isn't. You have the perfectly good, if inconvenient, option of telling the truth about your orientation and about your other relationship.
You owe your wife the truth, so she can make an informed decision about how to proceed with her own life.
But, if it weren't: LW, you are having an affair. Illicit sex often seems hotter than relationship sex, especially when you are realizing a secret desire, such as your sexual feelings for men. Sorry, but any guy who prefers to be blown by a man than his wife, and who is enjoying being blown by a man 4 or 5 times a week, is not quite straight. Suggesting that your wife is bad at blow jobs and refuses to get better, is just a way of saying "It's partly her fault that I am unfaithful.' No, it isn't. You have the perfectly good, if inconvenient, option of telling the truth about your orientation and about your other relationship.
You owe your wife the truth, so she can make an informed decision about how to proceed with her own life.
86
But, Aurora Erratic (@85), what difference does it make if he can elicit the answer he wants? If I present you a hypothetical case in which a person is obviously wrong, and you tell me "yes, s/he is wrong," just as I expected you to do, does it make the person in my hypothetical case any less wrong?
No. Unless you think that actually getting an OK from sloggers somehow excuses people from guilt, so it's a good thing to get it under false pretenses. Does it?
I'm sure that even the letters where people reported their real situation to the best of their knowledge aren't complete, because there certainly are missing facts the LW didn't know or didn't remeber or didn't consider relevant.
A letter from a person who is under no obligation to provide any evidence of truth (as all letters to Dan are) is an opportunity to consider a theoretical situation and discuss its ethical consequences. It frankly doesn't matter whether the letter is true or false, the situation is still interesting and relevant no matter what.
This letter is an example of a larger set of letters about under what circumstances it is or isn't ethically OK to cheat. Given what the letter says, I think it's obvious that it's a situation in which it isn't OK to cheat -- the LW apparently didn't even try talking to his wife about the blow-job situation with his personal trainer, without there being any reason for that in the letter, other than (presumably) losing face.
What difference does it make if details like the ones you mention were designed to elicit sympathy? Dan's advice (or the sloggers' opinions) apply only to the situation as described. If the situation is as such, then that's the advice I would give; if it isn't (as you assume, and you may well be right), then the advice doesn't apply to the LW's real situation, but It still applies to the hypothetical situation the LW presented.
And since short of checking every single LW as thoroughly as possible, we'll never know which situations were fake (but well thought out) and which weren't, then again I ask, what difference does it make?
My feelings for the hypothetical guy in the hypothetical situation that the LW describes don't depend on this hypohtetical guy actually being the LW. If he's the LW's fictional character, my opinion on him is still the same. And since it's impossible for sloggers to really trace every single case to check if it's a fake, then the distinction you want to draw between 'true' letters who 'really' deserve or 'really' don't deserve our sympathy is, in practical terms, moot.
More...
No. Unless you think that actually getting an OK from sloggers somehow excuses people from guilt, so it's a good thing to get it under false pretenses. Does it?
I'm sure that even the letters where people reported their real situation to the best of their knowledge aren't complete, because there certainly are missing facts the LW didn't know or didn't remeber or didn't consider relevant.
A letter from a person who is under no obligation to provide any evidence of truth (as all letters to Dan are) is an opportunity to consider a theoretical situation and discuss its ethical consequences. It frankly doesn't matter whether the letter is true or false, the situation is still interesting and relevant no matter what.
This letter is an example of a larger set of letters about under what circumstances it is or isn't ethically OK to cheat. Given what the letter says, I think it's obvious that it's a situation in which it isn't OK to cheat -- the LW apparently didn't even try talking to his wife about the blow-job situation with his personal trainer, without there being any reason for that in the letter, other than (presumably) losing face.
What difference does it make if details like the ones you mention were designed to elicit sympathy? Dan's advice (or the sloggers' opinions) apply only to the situation as described. If the situation is as such, then that's the advice I would give; if it isn't (as you assume, and you may well be right), then the advice doesn't apply to the LW's real situation, but It still applies to the hypothetical situation the LW presented.
And since short of checking every single LW as thoroughly as possible, we'll never know which situations were fake (but well thought out) and which weren't, then again I ask, what difference does it make?
My feelings for the hypothetical guy in the hypothetical situation that the LW describes don't depend on this hypohtetical guy actually being the LW. If he's the LW's fictional character, my opinion on him is still the same. And since it's impossible for sloggers to really trace every single case to check if it's a fake, then the distinction you want to draw between 'true' letters who 'really' deserve or 'really' don't deserve our sympathy is, in practical terms, moot.
87
@ankylosaur, you raised the idea that this is like other things the other spouse doesn't want to provide ("blow-jobs, BDSM, holding hands together and walking in the park, whatever").
Since there are a lot of people who would like to get something on the side, we could set up an STD scale of badness, where we distinguish between acts that are likely to bring home STDs (unprotected anal in gay sex clubs); acts that might bring home STDs (using condoms with a mistress who says she's faithful; blowjobs with the otherwise hetero trainer); and acts that are not going to bring home STDs any more than going to the gym would (public flogging at a BDSM club; dressing up like a pony with friends, but no sex; going to a munch; holding hands together and walking in the park).
Of course, STDs are not the only issue, as you say: "what is this on-the-side relationship going to become in the long run and how will it affect the main relationship"?
So we might need another scale for possible drama and public humiliation of the innocent spouse: romantic walks in the park are not likely to stay secret for very long; public flogging at a BDSM club is maybe a little less dangerous, but still risky in the long run. A mistress might turn vengeful and come after the children's pet bunnies.
Me, I'm drawn to the case of the young woman who wanted to go to burner parties and get flogged, despite her boyfriend's disapproval. It seems to me that it scores well on the STD scale (if she knows that for her, floggings won't turn sexual), and it scores well on the drama scale if they both run in personal and professional circles where this is no big deal (ie, she already hangs out at nudist burner parties, so a flogging isn't much of a scandal).
Where her case scores badly, is on the scale of: "is this going to lead to re-evaluating the relationship?" Which is why even such cases should be encouraged to be honest with their partners. See if you can bring them along your new path of exploration with you, and if not, both of you get time to think about what you want out of life... Instead of springing all your realizations about your new identity on your partner at the same time you ask for a divorce...
More...
Since there are a lot of people who would like to get something on the side, we could set up an STD scale of badness, where we distinguish between acts that are likely to bring home STDs (unprotected anal in gay sex clubs); acts that might bring home STDs (using condoms with a mistress who says she's faithful; blowjobs with the otherwise hetero trainer); and acts that are not going to bring home STDs any more than going to the gym would (public flogging at a BDSM club; dressing up like a pony with friends, but no sex; going to a munch; holding hands together and walking in the park).
Of course, STDs are not the only issue, as you say: "what is this on-the-side relationship going to become in the long run and how will it affect the main relationship"?
So we might need another scale for possible drama and public humiliation of the innocent spouse: romantic walks in the park are not likely to stay secret for very long; public flogging at a BDSM club is maybe a little less dangerous, but still risky in the long run. A mistress might turn vengeful and come after the children's pet bunnies.
Me, I'm drawn to the case of the young woman who wanted to go to burner parties and get flogged, despite her boyfriend's disapproval. It seems to me that it scores well on the STD scale (if she knows that for her, floggings won't turn sexual), and it scores well on the drama scale if they both run in personal and professional circles where this is no big deal (ie, she already hangs out at nudist burner parties, so a flogging isn't much of a scandal).
Where her case scores badly, is on the scale of: "is this going to lead to re-evaluating the relationship?" Which is why even such cases should be encouraged to be honest with their partners. See if you can bring them along your new path of exploration with you, and if not, both of you get time to think about what you want out of life... Instead of springing all your realizations about your new identity on your partner at the same time you ask for a divorce...
89
WHY WHY WHY, indeed, @7. Why on earth did he marry her? WHY do people marry people who fall SO short of any sort of sexual compatibility?
People. Don't marry someone who won't suck your dick, if you like having your dick sucked. The end.
People. Don't marry someone who won't suck your dick, if you like having your dick sucked. The end.
90
i bet it's real.. and it wouldn't be hard to keep from the wife if it's part of your workout time.. and if i was getting that kind of side benefit from my trainer i'm sure i'd work out that many times a week too... my vote was to carry on and send us the video.. on a side note - the fact that you, dan, were overcome by the hotness of the question, made me remember another - did you ever hear back from the woman who was going to have her old dominant fuck buddy teach her new not yet comfortably dominant boyfriend how to use her submissive ass properly? that one was too hot and i wonder still.. and wish there was video.. :)
91
@88
As my muse, Eudora Welty, once said, "All stories have been written before. There is nothing new under the sun that hasn't been told." Or something like that, but it was Eudora Welty who made this fact clear to me. We may have West Side Story, but it was written by William Shakespeare with the title of Romeo and Juliette.
Now that the children who taunt Dan with "fake" have moved on to be equally cynical on a range of other subjects, I draw you attention to MrAnk's (@86) well-expressed analysis about the letter writer. It's not merely moot as to whether the LW is real. It also matters very must that this letter is so common, not just here at the Stranger, but virtually everywhere and at all times. Dan has gotten to know his readers so well that he actually *respects* their intelligence. And the thing he is respecting in this instance is that we know that no matter how many times Dan responds to the same issue, it will return to him again, and again, and again with the names changed and the details ever so slightly different.
Dan know we readers already know the answer to this problem, and since we do, and since we know Dan knows we do, he gets playful with us by proposing a mock poll.
We get it.
While Dan gives serious attention the letter writer because, as we all know, somebody out there is paying attention because the are experiencing this *same* set of circumstances, he's also acknowledging his readers for being "in the know" about this stuff by giving them a humorous aside - an obviously bogus poll - to beat the monotony as he understands that letters of this type are *never* going to stop coming to his email in-box.
People want absolution and they want all want it on the *same* things but the only want to pay attention the answer when *they* are bogged down by the problem.
I've been reading letters like this since junior high school in 1966. It doesn't matter if it's authentically new and genuinely the work of the letter writer. It's the story of us all and like any cultural artifact, it has to be taught over and over again for the use of the next group of people who seek confirmation of something they already know, but must hear it said, that they are wrong.
More...
As my muse, Eudora Welty, once said, "All stories have been written before. There is nothing new under the sun that hasn't been told." Or something like that, but it was Eudora Welty who made this fact clear to me. We may have West Side Story, but it was written by William Shakespeare with the title of Romeo and Juliette.
Now that the children who taunt Dan with "fake" have moved on to be equally cynical on a range of other subjects, I draw you attention to MrAnk's (@86) well-expressed analysis about the letter writer. It's not merely moot as to whether the LW is real. It also matters very must that this letter is so common, not just here at the Stranger, but virtually everywhere and at all times. Dan has gotten to know his readers so well that he actually *respects* their intelligence. And the thing he is respecting in this instance is that we know that no matter how many times Dan responds to the same issue, it will return to him again, and again, and again with the names changed and the details ever so slightly different.
Dan know we readers already know the answer to this problem, and since we do, and since we know Dan knows we do, he gets playful with us by proposing a mock poll.
We get it.
While Dan gives serious attention the letter writer because, as we all know, somebody out there is paying attention because the are experiencing this *same* set of circumstances, he's also acknowledging his readers for being "in the know" about this stuff by giving them a humorous aside - an obviously bogus poll - to beat the monotony as he understands that letters of this type are *never* going to stop coming to his email in-box.
People want absolution and they want all want it on the *same* things but the only want to pay attention the answer when *they* are bogged down by the problem.
I've been reading letters like this since junior high school in 1966. It doesn't matter if it's authentically new and genuinely the work of the letter writer. It's the story of us all and like any cultural artifact, it has to be taught over and over again for the use of the next group of people who seek confirmation of something they already know, but must hear it said, that they are wrong.
92
@59 - I completely agree with you..but. I've wound up in committed, monogamous relationships a couple of times with people who I loved deeply and who weren't perfect and yes, the 'missing' things are hard to push out of your mind and forget about. @7 has a lot of interesting things to say about this stuff, but it' s not clear to me (having followed her for a while) that her situation is peachy-keen either.
I think there are incompatibilities which might be deal-breakers for one partner or the other - it's easy to imagine that this guy's wife isn't gonna say "gee, honey, what a relief, I don't have to give you that nasty fellatio anymore! You can get it from your DL boyfriend!". Dan has made the observation that he gets invited to poly weddings, but not too many poly anniversary parties. It seems like the essence of 'monogamish' involves a little bit of lying or self-deceit all around; maybe that can be finessed, but I think it ends in real heartbreak more often than not when people can't be in denial somewhat. This guy needs to stop, tell his wife he's really miserable and that she needs to do more - maybe not as much or as well as he'd like, but more.
I think there are incompatibilities which might be deal-breakers for one partner or the other - it's easy to imagine that this guy's wife isn't gonna say "gee, honey, what a relief, I don't have to give you that nasty fellatio anymore! You can get it from your DL boyfriend!". Dan has made the observation that he gets invited to poly weddings, but not too many poly anniversary parties. It seems like the essence of 'monogamish' involves a little bit of lying or self-deceit all around; maybe that can be finessed, but I think it ends in real heartbreak more often than not when people can't be in denial somewhat. This guy needs to stop, tell his wife he's really miserable and that she needs to do more - maybe not as much or as well as he'd like, but more.
93
@92, "This guy needs to ...tell his wife he's really miserable and that she needs to do more - maybe not as much or as well as he'd like, but more."
Yes. It would be great if Dan had provided some blowjob educational tips. Lubes that don't taste bad, combining blowjobs with a helping hand (by the blower and/or the blowee), deep throating tips, alternatives to swallowing, etc. etc. He has given these tips before, but as Ray said @91, people need to get told the same things over and over again, so they hear it when they are ready for it. Also, SOS has to make himself vulnerable by talking honestly about his desires, rather than trying to manipulate or guilt his wife into sullen blowjobs.
Yes. It would be great if Dan had provided some blowjob educational tips. Lubes that don't taste bad, combining blowjobs with a helping hand (by the blower and/or the blowee), deep throating tips, alternatives to swallowing, etc. etc. He has given these tips before, but as Ray said @91, people need to get told the same things over and over again, so they hear it when they are ready for it. Also, SOS has to make himself vulnerable by talking honestly about his desires, rather than trying to manipulate or guilt his wife into sullen blowjobs.
94
@73, I want to thank you for that link. And, um, a lot more.
Besides the obvious, there was much humor and wisdom in those threads, and a nice little stroll down memory lane to some times in adolescence through college when there was obvious mutual desire for bro-sex but to follow through would have much more likely caused complete freakouts than it would these days.
Besides the obvious, there was much humor and wisdom in those threads, and a nice little stroll down memory lane to some times in adolescence through college when there was obvious mutual desire for bro-sex but to follow through would have much more likely caused complete freakouts than it would these days.
97
If I was married and my wife had an insatiable appetite for having her pussy licked and I either didn't like doing it or did it but was terrible at it, and she asked me if it was okay if another woman licked her pussy, I'd say "Sure! As long as you come back and tell me all about it."
In previous discussions here, I've seen Sloggettes say that many women allegedly like the idea (or reality) of two men being sexual together so, if that's true, then maybe this guy's wife wouldn't just be okay with it; she'd actually find it hot.
On a tangent...while I don't envy gay men the hassles and scorn they have to deal with from many people in society, and while I'm attracted to women and not guys, I do envy them for having a lot of partners who, I imagine, enthusiastically suck cock. Every woman (with one exception, and I'll never forget her reason: "you pee out of that thing!") I've been intimate with has done it, but only about one-quarter of them were really into it.
In previous discussions here, I've seen Sloggettes say that many women allegedly like the idea (or reality) of two men being sexual together so, if that's true, then maybe this guy's wife wouldn't just be okay with it; she'd actually find it hot.
On a tangent...while I don't envy gay men the hassles and scorn they have to deal with from many people in society, and while I'm attracted to women and not guys, I do envy them for having a lot of partners who, I imagine, enthusiastically suck cock. Every woman (with one exception, and I'll never forget her reason: "you pee out of that thing!") I've been intimate with has done it, but only about one-quarter of them were really into it.
98
31/IHSN: Imagine how you'd feel if your wife were getting her pussy eaten out five times per week by the gardener or the poolboy.
While most guys probably wouldn't like it one bit if their wife was having that done, I'd also say they might not mind (or would even find it hot) if their wife were getting her pussy eaten out five times per week by the gardenness or the poolgirl.
While most guys probably wouldn't like it one bit if their wife was having that done, I'd also say they might not mind (or would even find it hot) if their wife were getting her pussy eaten out five times per week by the gardenness or the poolgirl.
99
@35 TheOtherWoman: Dunno whether I'd be hot to you (that's a very relative thing), but if you're ever in the west coast of Canada feel free to look me up, as you seem pretty nice :).
100
First point: Don't send a woman to do a man's job.
Women are not qualified to suck dick. There are many women out there who swear that they give great head, and many men who will swear that their GF gives the best head in the world. Both groups tend to be naive. The former never had their dicks sucked [1], the latter never had their dicks sucked by a dick-sucking dude.
I've had sex with women who swore that they were complete sex fiends. The head was OK. But 80% of the guys I've been with could do better.
In a utopic world, every straight married guy could have a buddy like this. It just works.
Second point: Honesty is not always the best policy.
I'm a guy that has made clear to women that I will got give up man-on-man sex. I am never married. There are a few women who wouldn't run screaming from that. But "few" is the operant word, and there's a clear supply-and-demand mismatch.
I've known several guys over the years who married women without disclosure, had a man on the side, and had a nice family as a result. In one case, the wife found out and all hell broke loose. They got over it and remained happily married with a happy kid.
If she had known in advance, would she had agreed to marry? Most likely not. Would she have married somebody who would have been more faithful? Possibly, I guess... but I would tend to doubt it. Being lied to gave her a good outcome in life.
Third point: This guy is writing sex columnists. He will not be able to keep the secret.
Women are not qualified to suck dick. There are many women out there who swear that they give great head, and many men who will swear that their GF gives the best head in the world. Both groups tend to be naive. The former never had their dicks sucked [1], the latter never had their dicks sucked by a dick-sucking dude.
I've had sex with women who swore that they were complete sex fiends. The head was OK. But 80% of the guys I've been with could do better.
In a utopic world, every straight married guy could have a buddy like this. It just works.
Second point: Honesty is not always the best policy.
I'm a guy that has made clear to women that I will got give up man-on-man sex. I am never married. There are a few women who wouldn't run screaming from that. But "few" is the operant word, and there's a clear supply-and-demand mismatch.
I've known several guys over the years who married women without disclosure, had a man on the side, and had a nice family as a result. In one case, the wife found out and all hell broke loose. They got over it and remained happily married with a happy kid.
If she had known in advance, would she had agreed to marry? Most likely not. Would she have married somebody who would have been more faithful? Possibly, I guess... but I would tend to doubt it. Being lied to gave her a good outcome in life.
Third point: This guy is writing sex columnists. He will not be able to keep the secret.
101
EricaP (@87), it's possible to get all theoretical about real-life situation and to try to evaluate things along well-defined scales. I've tried doing that a couple of times; and I've always been proven wrong by reality, in the sense that there always something happening that, by my scientific scales, should be one thing (say, OK) but yet clearly was another (say, very risky / exploitative / manipulative / whatever). As they say, the eternal tragedy of science: a beautiful theory slain by an ugly fact. :-)
Mr Harwick (@88), I indeed agree. Even though by now Dan could probably refer back to advice he gave on equivalent cases before ('just read my column of XX/XX/XXXX and take the advice I gave to XXX there!'), I agree that the importance of repeating things -- especially things the LW might not want to hear -- is true. I understand that (especially for the veteran Sloggers) it's more interesting when a new, still unheard-of case shows up (the story may have been written before, but hey, maybe neither Dan nor any of us read its previous incarnations) for discussion and consideration. But it's also good to know what the frequent things are -- typical cases like partners-with-unmatched-libido, or I've-found-my-hubby's/daddy's/uncle's/son's-porn-stash-and-I'm-freaking-out, or how-can-I-get-my-partner-to-do-X, or should-I-tell-my-friend-X(say, that his GF/BF is cheating on him)...
It's interesting how these relationship-oriented cases slowly but surely replaced the earlier number of letters about 'strange kinks' or 'stupid situations' or 'advice with practice X' ('What's the right way to tie someone up?' 'Is drinking urine bad for your health?' 'How can I enter the sex industry?' etc.). Maybe as Dan (and his readers/LWs) matured, questions moved away from sexual mechanics (= practices) and onto sexual dynamics (= relationship). Maybe the question 'how can people (want to) stay together despite their human frailties and quirks?' is ultimately more interesting than 'how can I do this sex act?', I don't know.
More...
Mr Harwick (@88), I indeed agree. Even though by now Dan could probably refer back to advice he gave on equivalent cases before ('just read my column of XX/XX/XXXX and take the advice I gave to XXX there!'), I agree that the importance of repeating things -- especially things the LW might not want to hear -- is true. I understand that (especially for the veteran Sloggers) it's more interesting when a new, still unheard-of case shows up (the story may have been written before, but hey, maybe neither Dan nor any of us read its previous incarnations) for discussion and consideration. But it's also good to know what the frequent things are -- typical cases like partners-with-unmatched-libido, or I've-found-my-hubby's/daddy's/uncle's/son's-porn-stash-and-I'm-freaking-out, or how-can-I-get-my-partner-to-do-X, or should-I-tell-my-friend-X(say, that his GF/BF is cheating on him)...
It's interesting how these relationship-oriented cases slowly but surely replaced the earlier number of letters about 'strange kinks' or 'stupid situations' or 'advice with practice X' ('What's the right way to tie someone up?' 'Is drinking urine bad for your health?' 'How can I enter the sex industry?' etc.). Maybe as Dan (and his readers/LWs) matured, questions moved away from sexual mechanics (= practices) and onto sexual dynamics (= relationship). Maybe the question 'how can people (want to) stay together despite their human frailties and quirks?' is ultimately more interesting than 'how can I do this sex act?', I don't know.
103
really, wow.
I had no idea my question would result in this... thread.
i feel like the shithead and perfectly fine about it all at once.
– sex lives change over time, especially ours
- we've talked endlessly about head, she's not into it.
- she's turned off and close minded about guys into guys, semi-convservative and no way would she entertain the idea.
– when we have sex it's amazing, we're very into each other
– she simply hates head, it's never been a good experience
– trainer is a friend, but didn't want to introduce that dynamic into a question about physicality
– bottom line is i'm satisfying both our crazy hungers, he'll tell me when he wants out, and we're both lucky to have something safe.
and no. this wasn't fake.
I had no idea my question would result in this... thread.
i feel like the shithead and perfectly fine about it all at once.
– sex lives change over time, especially ours
- we've talked endlessly about head, she's not into it.
- she's turned off and close minded about guys into guys, semi-convservative and no way would she entertain the idea.
– when we have sex it's amazing, we're very into each other
– she simply hates head, it's never been a good experience
– trainer is a friend, but didn't want to introduce that dynamic into a question about physicality
– bottom line is i'm satisfying both our crazy hungers, he'll tell me when he wants out, and we're both lucky to have something safe.
and no. this wasn't fake.
104
@ 100
it's the first time i've ever done this.
it was an experiment to see if i could gain anything from it.
still even surprised i was taken seriously.
agree with and thank you for your perspective.
it's the first time i've ever done this.
it was an experiment to see if i could gain anything from it.
still even surprised i was taken seriously.
agree with and thank you for your perspective.
105
hey sos, don't take all these folks too seriously.. you're the only one in your situation and you'll figure it out as you go along.. and hopefully, not fuck everything up :) good luck!
106
What dis thread tells me, is that most of you have not been deep-throated enough. Oh yah, it's because your cocks are too big. Right...
107
What this thread tells me, is that most of you have not deep-throated enough. Either your mouth's too small, or your cock's too big. Right?
109
It's fucking dangerous to read this blog on a crowded subway! Might get me arrested for sexually harassing some innocent passenger very close by...
110
@108, I have, and I didn't like it. Some of us just don't enjoy it as much as you do, sorry.
SOS (@102-104), I still think that you should talk to your wife. It doesn't matter that 'she's conservative about that.' If she finds out by herself, it will be worse (and given the mechanics of affairs, which is what yours is, this happens more often than not).
There are always secrets between spouses, I understand. This might be one of them. But ask yourself: if she had a similar secret -- if she was getting some on the side that for some reason you couldn't or wouldn't give her -- how would you feel?
If you tell me you'd be OK with her doing it -- and that you'd be OK with her lying to you about it (a lie of omission, but still) -- then I'll say at least you're consistent. You're not asking for more rights than you're willing to bestow.
But are you?
People have always cheated, and sometimes gotten away with it. Maybe your wife is cheating on you and getting away with it, who knows. I can't tell you that it will go wrong if you don't tell her. Maybe it won't. The opposite is more likely, but hey, maybe it won't.
And if you indeed feel well about having your blow-job-based affair and not telling your wife about it; if you can live with that; and if you're willing to run the risk of her someday finding out about it and confronting you with it; and if you're keeping her happy in all other ways... And if you indeed don't care if she's also cheating on you and lying about it... Then OK, I guess.
But do you? Can you? Will you?
SOS (@102-104), I still think that you should talk to your wife. It doesn't matter that 'she's conservative about that.' If she finds out by herself, it will be worse (and given the mechanics of affairs, which is what yours is, this happens more often than not).
There are always secrets between spouses, I understand. This might be one of them. But ask yourself: if she had a similar secret -- if she was getting some on the side that for some reason you couldn't or wouldn't give her -- how would you feel?
If you tell me you'd be OK with her doing it -- and that you'd be OK with her lying to you about it (a lie of omission, but still) -- then I'll say at least you're consistent. You're not asking for more rights than you're willing to bestow.
But are you?
People have always cheated, and sometimes gotten away with it. Maybe your wife is cheating on you and getting away with it, who knows. I can't tell you that it will go wrong if you don't tell her. Maybe it won't. The opposite is more likely, but hey, maybe it won't.
And if you indeed feel well about having your blow-job-based affair and not telling your wife about it; if you can live with that; and if you're willing to run the risk of her someday finding out about it and confronting you with it; and if you're keeping her happy in all other ways... And if you indeed don't care if she's also cheating on you and lying about it... Then OK, I guess.
But do you? Can you? Will you?
111
@110 If if he's blowing a load in hot trainer guy's mouth 4-5 times a week, the wife is bound to find out about it sooner or latter. The wife finding out about his extracurricular activities will most likely end the marriage. I think the LW's best chance to save his marriage is to stop fooling around NOW and never breath a word about what he's done to another living soul. Fat chance of that happening. Oh well, divorce lawyers need to make a living so I suppose it is all for the best.
112
I think the fact that the letter writer seems to only define a blowjob by deep-throating (well, that and swallowing), may have something to do with the wife's unwillingness to blow him. This may be projection of the highest order, as personally, I love giving blowjobs but I can't deepthroat. I have a terrible gag reflex, getting orthodontal work as a child was utter hell, I just can't do it. If I was with a guy who refused to count it as a blowjob unless I had his whole goddamn cock in my mouth, even if it meant I was gagging and not having any fun*, I would definitely stop going down on him at all.
*well, honestly, someone with a cock even average length jams the whole thing in my mouth, I'm just going to vomit on it, and that's a specialized kind of fetish.
*well, honestly, someone with a cock even average length jams the whole thing in my mouth, I'm just going to vomit on it, and that's a specialized kind of fetish.
114
ankylosaur @101 - good point.
SoS, you're sexually adventurous, and apparently your wife likes sex with you. Do you have any inkling that she might have fantasies that aren't being fulfilled right now? Could you maybe raise that with her on the level of "just-in-bed fantasy," for now? If you're in this marriage for the long haul, it's good to try to share your sexual fantasy life with each other. And if you're not in it for the long haul, then just get divorced now so you can each find someone you can trust and confide in.
SoS, you're sexually adventurous, and apparently your wife likes sex with you. Do you have any inkling that she might have fantasies that aren't being fulfilled right now? Could you maybe raise that with her on the level of "just-in-bed fantasy," for now? If you're in this marriage for the long haul, it's good to try to share your sexual fantasy life with each other. And if you're not in it for the long haul, then just get divorced now so you can each find someone you can trust and confide in.
115
Mr Shy @100 - Well, that might work all very well for the doubtless striaght-identified married men, but the widespread cultural acceptance of such an arrangement would mean that gay rights would go directly to jail without passing Go or collecting $200. The secret indulger on the side is just the sort of person who moves heaven and earth to prevent any sort of legal expression of open homosexuality. It would threaten his supply. If some one group of people has to go without having everything it wants sexually, I'll be least upset about it if that group consists of straight-identified married men.
117
Mr SOS - Thank you for the comments. I shall hope for both your sakes that your wife is in a position that more or less comes out about equivalent to your own, not necessarily that she's also having outside activity.
118
Mr Ank @101 - There is also the interesting possibility that Mr Savage might have changed or at least refined some of his positions over time. Why not? Ms Landers did.
119
"i feel like the shithead and perfectly fine about it all at once."
CPOS syndrome in a nutshell.
CPOS syndrome in a nutshell.
120
I have forgotten to mention one point that has interested me about this letter, that this is one of those situations in which I find I'll feel rather differently if one of the parties (in this case the trainer) were gay instead of bi. This may or may not make much sense. But, if a bi male wants to enter such a one-sided arrangement, it doesn't make much of a ripple. He might likely be compartmentalizing his activites; I've known people like that. A gay man in the trainer's position would strike me as potentially troubling, at least much less likely to be a free and healthy choice, and philosophically tricky in a way that seems to be on some sort of parallel to how Ms Erica has reconciled her desires to her ideas. I'll add, however, that, unlike Ms Erica, most of the gay men I've met who gravitated to such arrangements (thankfully rather some time in the past) gave off a distinct touch of the creepy.
121
@103: "- she's turned off and close minded about guys into guys, semi-convservative and no way would she entertain the idea.
– when we have sex it's amazing, we're very into each other
– she simply hates head, it's never been a good experience"
Get a divorce.
– when we have sex it's amazing, we're very into each other
– she simply hates head, it's never been a good experience"
Get a divorce.
122
@7: Comments, like this one, that inappropriately try to establish some moral equivalence between the behaviors of men and women are a real pet peeve of mine. Let's just count the ways that assumption is fuced up in this situation.
First of all, blowjobs and fucking are two different acts. While many people just categorize both as sex, many don't. Fucking is biologically different and tends to be more emotionally charged.
Second, a man playing with a man is not equivalent to a woman playing with a man. Aside from the physical differences, men (as Dan has pointed out in the past) tend to be less respectful to third parties when it comes to sex.
Third, and probably most important, the assymetry in libidos between this guy and his wife completely destroys the moral equivalence argument. A partner who looks outside of a primary relationship for sex because there is not enough at home has very different implications than a partner who gets more than enough at home, but still wants something else.
First of all, blowjobs and fucking are two different acts. While many people just categorize both as sex, many don't. Fucking is biologically different and tends to be more emotionally charged.
Second, a man playing with a man is not equivalent to a woman playing with a man. Aside from the physical differences, men (as Dan has pointed out in the past) tend to be less respectful to third parties when it comes to sex.
Third, and probably most important, the assymetry in libidos between this guy and his wife completely destroys the moral equivalence argument. A partner who looks outside of a primary relationship for sex because there is not enough at home has very different implications than a partner who gets more than enough at home, but still wants something else.
123
@122 (GetReal), it seems you haven't read SOS's letter carefully enough. He says the sex with the wife is 'great', the only drawback being that there are no blowjobs. This hardly qualifies as "there not being enough sex at home"; it's more akin to looking for BDSM outside the home because your spouse won't indulge.
Now, on your arguments:
First of all, blowjobs and fucking are both sex. They're different acts, but they're both sex. I'm sure there are people who don't think so (the Clinton defense), but I'll let you tell me: if a blowjob is not sex, then what is it? A chore? A sport? :-) The biological difference isn't important, because we're not talking about having children, we're talking about sexual gratification. As for fucking tending to be more emotionally charged, that depends on the person: to me, for instance, there are several sex acts much more emotionally charged than fucking.
Second, a man playing with a man is exactly the moral equivalent of a man playing with a woman -- in both cases, it's sex with a human being. A spouse who was not consulted may certainly feel betrayed in both cases. Said spouse may agree with you that one of these two kinds is less important, but then again s/he may not. It's by no means set in stone.
Third, and probably most important, what the guy says in his letter (and in the comments he made above, @101-104) suggest that their libidos are not mismatched: sex at home is great and plentiful. It is only blowjobs that are not on the menu. In other words, this is entirely a blowjob-o-centric problem, not a problem of not enough sex.
(By the way, those people who think blowjobs are not sex -- only fucking is -- and that you mentioned favorably in your comment should also agree that, since the only the husband isn't getting is blowjobs, then he has nothing to complain about sex -- i.e., the sex is perfect, it's just the blowjobs (a totally different matter, right?) that aren't OK....)
And the equivalence therefore remains. If this wife needed to get specific sex (say, cunnilingus, or BDSM) from an outside source, this should be as OK (or as wrong) as this husband getting blowjobs on the side. If he wants his long-term blowjob-o-centric affair to be OK, he should also admit that he would accept it if she had a similarly specific long-term affair.
More...
Now, on your arguments:
First of all, blowjobs and fucking are both sex. They're different acts, but they're both sex. I'm sure there are people who don't think so (the Clinton defense), but I'll let you tell me: if a blowjob is not sex, then what is it? A chore? A sport? :-) The biological difference isn't important, because we're not talking about having children, we're talking about sexual gratification. As for fucking tending to be more emotionally charged, that depends on the person: to me, for instance, there are several sex acts much more emotionally charged than fucking.
Second, a man playing with a man is exactly the moral equivalent of a man playing with a woman -- in both cases, it's sex with a human being. A spouse who was not consulted may certainly feel betrayed in both cases. Said spouse may agree with you that one of these two kinds is less important, but then again s/he may not. It's by no means set in stone.
Third, and probably most important, what the guy says in his letter (and in the comments he made above, @101-104) suggest that their libidos are not mismatched: sex at home is great and plentiful. It is only blowjobs that are not on the menu. In other words, this is entirely a blowjob-o-centric problem, not a problem of not enough sex.
(By the way, those people who think blowjobs are not sex -- only fucking is -- and that you mentioned favorably in your comment should also agree that, since the only the husband isn't getting is blowjobs, then he has nothing to complain about sex -- i.e., the sex is perfect, it's just the blowjobs (a totally different matter, right?) that aren't OK....)
And the equivalence therefore remains. If this wife needed to get specific sex (say, cunnilingus, or BDSM) from an outside source, this should be as OK (or as wrong) as this husband getting blowjobs on the side. If he wants his long-term blowjob-o-centric affair to be OK, he should also admit that he would accept it if she had a similarly specific long-term affair.
124
@122. So, in my 28 year relationship (gay) in which the entrée was always oral sex, and nothing else, I didn't have sex? Is the key to this logic that if you don't think oral sex is sex, it isn't? I suppose it would then seem unnecessary to add the word "sex" to the phrase "oral sex" but, in my mind it's oral-SOMETHING and it's isn't kissing or talking or singing or swallowing or anything else one can do orally. Let's call it Oral-X, where "X" stands for, um, you know, whatever.
125
totally disappointed in your response Dan. As a man who lived for 29 years in a marriage w/ a woman, I have many regrets for my affect on her. These two men are closeted homosexuals, looking out for their homosexual needs w/ no regard for integrity in their relationships w/ their wives. 'it gets better' only when they come out and respect women w/ the same regard they do themselves.
126
I doubt that this one is fake... maybe exaggerated a bit, but not fake. As a promiscuous gay man, I can attest to the fact that hooking up with straight guys is not uncommon. Some of them just want head (these are the types who think that gay men give it better than women) and some want full anal (wives won't do it, and these guys don't touch your cock). Either way, the number of "straight" men getting it on with gay dudes is shockingly high. Yes, most are probably a little bi and can't admit it (90/10 or 80/20) but even with those, you can tell the difference between who wants to play on occasion and who just wants to be serviced because they aren't getting any at home.
So yeah... he's probably for real. With that said... he's also cheating and he should come clean about it. If good head is THAT important, then he should consider an arrangement or a divorce. If not, he'll eventually get caught. Just about everyone gets caught... eventually.
So yeah... he's probably for real. With that said... he's also cheating and he should come clean about it. If good head is THAT important, then he should consider an arrangement or a divorce. If not, he'll eventually get caught. Just about everyone gets caught... eventually.
127
@73, I just wanted to second 94 and thank you for that link. It was funny, sweet, all-around awesome, and fucking crazy HOT.
128
Hey SoS. Ignore most of these commenters & look at the poll results -- keep on rockin, or stop, but *definitely* don't tell. Commenters usually are people who disagree with a situation or article, so that's why the comments are so negative. In an ideal world, sure, you could tell your wife. But there's a strange logic to these people who say honesty (and likely divorce) are better than keeping up a good thing or just stopping it, and it sounds it's working for you, her, and your trainer, as long as it's secret.
Since you like data / empirical approaches, here are the logical choices:
(a) keep it up & not get caught, all good
(b) keep it up but get caught, messy/hurt feelings possibly divorce
(c) open up & tell, messy/hurt feelings guaranteed possibly divorce
(d) stop, feel unsatisfied & possibly resentful.
So, sure, it's selfish to chose (a) over (d). And if you value your wife's happiness and family integrity / kids having non-divorced parents above all else, you'll pick (d). But you're human so I could see why you could just as easily pick (a) and let's face it, you already picked (a) some time ago!
Sounds like you're just looking to ease a guilty conscience, so you picked Sex at Dawn Dan hoping he'd absolve you sort of like a Catholic priest (ironic, Dan?). Deal, dude!
Many conservative women also are non-monagamous so someday your wife may also pick (a) and "cheat." She's human too. But regardless (b) & (c) obviously are poor choices. Even if you go on gut feel not logic, opening up *after* the fact is pretty hurtful, guaranteed to be really, really messy emotionally at best and hurt her. In an ideal world you could be honest but again SLOGgers are ignoring that your wife is conservative AND you already have kids to consider.
More...
Since you like data / empirical approaches, here are the logical choices:
(a) keep it up & not get caught, all good
(b) keep it up but get caught, messy/hurt feelings possibly divorce
(c) open up & tell, messy/hurt feelings guaranteed possibly divorce
(d) stop, feel unsatisfied & possibly resentful.
So, sure, it's selfish to chose (a) over (d). And if you value your wife's happiness and family integrity / kids having non-divorced parents above all else, you'll pick (d). But you're human so I could see why you could just as easily pick (a) and let's face it, you already picked (a) some time ago!
Sounds like you're just looking to ease a guilty conscience, so you picked Sex at Dawn Dan hoping he'd absolve you sort of like a Catholic priest (ironic, Dan?). Deal, dude!
Many conservative women also are non-monagamous so someday your wife may also pick (a) and "cheat." She's human too. But regardless (b) & (c) obviously are poor choices. Even if you go on gut feel not logic, opening up *after* the fact is pretty hurtful, guaranteed to be really, really messy emotionally at best and hurt her. In an ideal world you could be honest but again SLOGgers are ignoring that your wife is conservative AND you already have kids to consider.
129
Forgot to add, four quick points:
1. oral-receipt: getting true deep throat really is an amazing and different feel from other types of oral.
2. oral-giving: One can love cock and love one's partner but even among gay dudes most don't overcome the gag reflex. Sucking on a large cock if you have a sensitive gag reflex? Think cat spitting up hairballs, you're the cat. Not happy.
3. SoS, if you keep it up, test the waters via TV dramas, to see how she reacts, people sometimes change. e.g. Skins UK hetero Tony offers to give a BJ to gay friend Maxxie to cheer him up (Maxxie refuses). British TV has more straight guys getting it on with guys than US TV for you to naturally ask, once a year or so, "Huh, honey, those Brits sure are down on the heteroflexible thing, interesting difference, huh?"
Although in Skins many of the "adults" usually divorce when their affairs are discovered, so it's not that diff. from US TV. Watch French cinema for couples who are cool with the DL affair to see how she reacts to a regular-sex-on-the-side-but-you're-not-in-love-with-the-side sort of situation.
4. Remember there is an STI risk, even if your trainer & his wife are otherwise monogamous HPV & herpes can remain dormant (but could also be dormant in you or your wife from a prev. relationship, if you weren't virgins when you met).
1. oral-receipt: getting true deep throat really is an amazing and different feel from other types of oral.
2. oral-giving: One can love cock and love one's partner but even among gay dudes most don't overcome the gag reflex. Sucking on a large cock if you have a sensitive gag reflex? Think cat spitting up hairballs, you're the cat. Not happy.
3. SoS, if you keep it up, test the waters via TV dramas, to see how she reacts, people sometimes change. e.g. Skins UK hetero Tony offers to give a BJ to gay friend Maxxie to cheer him up (Maxxie refuses). British TV has more straight guys getting it on with guys than US TV for you to naturally ask, once a year or so, "Huh, honey, those Brits sure are down on the heteroflexible thing, interesting difference, huh?"
Although in Skins many of the "adults" usually divorce when their affairs are discovered, so it's not that diff. from US TV. Watch French cinema for couples who are cool with the DL affair to see how she reacts to a regular-sex-on-the-side-but-you're-not-in-love-with-the-side sort of situation.
4. Remember there is an STI risk, even if your trainer & his wife are otherwise monogamous HPV & herpes can remain dormant (but could also be dormant in you or your wife from a prev. relationship, if you weren't virgins when you met).
130
I think we've found America's answer to our obesity problem. We need to change our social and legal contracts to allow personal trainers to charge for blowies (call it tips for tips?). I know I'd be in much better shape.
131
Hi Sos / LW,
How has your relationship with the wife been since the DL blow jobs began?
Do you find yourself happier and less resentful toward her? Do you think your relationship is overall in a better place?
I'm not sure I have any advice for you but I am a bit jealous of your DL man action affair. I have long wished for similar circumstances - I love my wife and am mostly straight but I have always been bi and she is not a guy. As much as I repress the desires they always return. I think secrets can be kept if both you and your friend are smart and your time together is not suspicious in any way.
How has your relationship with the wife been since the DL blow jobs began?
Do you find yourself happier and less resentful toward her? Do you think your relationship is overall in a better place?
I'm not sure I have any advice for you but I am a bit jealous of your DL man action affair. I have long wished for similar circumstances - I love my wife and am mostly straight but I have always been bi and she is not a guy. As much as I repress the desires they always return. I think secrets can be kept if both you and your friend are smart and your time together is not suspicious in any way.
132
He's a complete "fiend when it comes to getting deep throated and [his] load swallowed". Not sure why, but that line strikes me as hilarious (I love getting head and my wife has swallowed since she first went down on me at 17 but as into as I am, I am no "fiend"). If I were in to sucking cock, not sure that that sounds all that attractive though I might describe myself that way when it comes to going down on my wife.
Maybe its just the image of his (enormous) cock and his fiendome - sounds a bit dangerous (even if the giver did NOT have a gag reflex).
Maybe its just the image of his (enormous) cock and his fiendome - sounds a bit dangerous (even if the giver did NOT have a gag reflex).
134
I need more information. 1) So does this guy just suck your off and that's it? No kissing, you sucking him, fucking his ass, etc..? 2) If the answer to #1 is yes, all that happens is that he blows you then you leave, then by all means keep getting your cock sucked. If it's keeping you from cheating on your wife in another way or with another woman, then it really doesn't seem that much different than jerking off. On the other hand, if you are blowing him, kissing him, fucking his ass or anything more than just getting your cock sucked, then you're in an affair and you should stop or dump your wife. If you're reading this, then could you also let us know what you are thinking about when he is blowing you? Are you thinking about tits/pussy or the fact that some hot guy is sucking on your straight cock. If it's the latter, then you're not straight anyway, so get out and come out.
135
"If it's keeping you from cheating on your wife in another way or with another woman, then it really doesn't seem that much different than jerking off."
I'm keeping myself from cheating on my wife by cheating on my wife!
Your rationale makes no sense at all. A gay man (no matter how NSA) is not a sex toy.
Speaking of which, the LW needs a fleshlight or something. ALSO A DIVORCE. But mostly something he can bottom out without continuing to be a cesspool of drama.
I'm keeping myself from cheating on my wife by cheating on my wife!
Your rationale makes no sense at all. A gay man (no matter how NSA) is not a sex toy.
Speaking of which, the LW needs a fleshlight or something. ALSO A DIVORCE. But mostly something he can bottom out without continuing to be a cesspool of drama.
136
@126 - thank you.
@134 – Nothing but stopping by his place. Kick back, he goes to work. Longer sessions, shorter sessions. Whatever. I have no desire to do more. We both get what we want.
@131 - Dude. 100% less resentment. Sometimes it's almost like I feel lucky and relieved all at once. The dude I'm buds with, we clearly have more going on other than "friendship" (which was genuine to begin with), and if either of us wanted to call it quits we would. But we're not and it feels good.
more comments (and this is my last message):
– i'm stunned by how many people cared to respond. lots of judging and lots of pragmatism. and no idea what LW means.
– here's the verdict. i'm staying the course, and i feel a lot better about this. i'm being safe, discrete, and fulfilling a need that's confirmed over and over that will not be fulfilled at home.
- i mean, for any of you other dudes over 8 inches... being throated?!?!?!? and then swallowed!?!? this isn't temptation, this is LUCKY.
- to those haters who say i should get divorce or deserve to be cheated on... or worse deserve her to leave me. well, i guess it's her choice, and if that's the way this has to come up, i'd cross that bridge if needed.
- if she wanted something else outside, i'd support it if she was safe and equally committed as i am. i dont think she ever would, she is very conservative and not open.
- we do have a gratifying sex life, i do anything and everything she wants and love pleasuring her. it's why we have great chemistry—i prioritize her pleasure more than my own and vice versa, except for head. it works for us.
- sorry everyone, i've enjoyed exploring this public experience, and have no plans to make, consider making, or ever make let alone share pictures or a video.
why risk ruining a good thing?
More...
@134 – Nothing but stopping by his place. Kick back, he goes to work. Longer sessions, shorter sessions. Whatever. I have no desire to do more. We both get what we want.
@131 - Dude. 100% less resentment. Sometimes it's almost like I feel lucky and relieved all at once. The dude I'm buds with, we clearly have more going on other than "friendship" (which was genuine to begin with), and if either of us wanted to call it quits we would. But we're not and it feels good.
more comments (and this is my last message):
– i'm stunned by how many people cared to respond. lots of judging and lots of pragmatism. and no idea what LW means.
– here's the verdict. i'm staying the course, and i feel a lot better about this. i'm being safe, discrete, and fulfilling a need that's confirmed over and over that will not be fulfilled at home.
- i mean, for any of you other dudes over 8 inches... being throated?!?!?!? and then swallowed!?!? this isn't temptation, this is LUCKY.
- to those haters who say i should get divorce or deserve to be cheated on... or worse deserve her to leave me. well, i guess it's her choice, and if that's the way this has to come up, i'd cross that bridge if needed.
- if she wanted something else outside, i'd support it if she was safe and equally committed as i am. i dont think she ever would, she is very conservative and not open.
- we do have a gratifying sex life, i do anything and everything she wants and love pleasuring her. it's why we have great chemistry—i prioritize her pleasure more than my own and vice versa, except for head. it works for us.
- sorry everyone, i've enjoyed exploring this public experience, and have no plans to make, consider making, or ever make let alone share pictures or a video.
why risk ruining a good thing?
138
"i prioritize her pleasure more than my own and vice versa, except for head. it works for us."
I mean really, this is not an equitable situation. Get a divorce.
I mean really, this is not an equitable situation. Get a divorce.
139
@136: "...I guess it's her choice..."
Problem is it's not her choice, until she knows she has one.
Problem is it's not her choice, until she knows she has one.
140
@87, ankylosaur - Okay, good points. You are right that hypotheticals are valid exercises.
I'm still a little disappointed, because that's not what I read Savage Love for.
I'm still a little disappointed, because that's not what I read Savage Love for.
141
@140 - but the LW has responded.... so it's not a fake. Are you not convinced that's him? Whoever's posting as SoS certainly sounds like he is full of the same rationalizations for why it's okay for him to undermine his marriage and his wife's understanding of their life together.
142
I think he should pick up the book Sex at Dawn, read it, encourage his wife to read it, then slowly and gently raise a conversation about poly-sexuality with his wife, and see if she'll buy off with his plan to get regular head from his trainer-man friend, as long as he does so safely and knows the training is getting tested regularly.
If she doesn't buy off on it... well, I wish him the best of luck. A longer term conversation might help once the ideas of multiple-partner sexuality being very normally human percolate in her mind for awhile. Cheating is a bad idea though.
If she doesn't buy off on it... well, I wish him the best of luck. A longer term conversation might help once the ideas of multiple-partner sexuality being very normally human percolate in her mind for awhile. Cheating is a bad idea though.
143
Seems like SOS is making the right choice.
He knows his wife better than we do. Seems like he's got good thing going. Advice to read sex at dawn and be more ethically slutty is just gonna cause drama.
Ethically slutty is superior to unethically slutty, but I think this can be covered by a higher level of ethics. We only live once and if he's scratching an itch that brings him much pleasure and is smart about keeping it a secret, then he's not hurting anyone, except maybe himself in the sense that he's withholding a part of himself from his wife, but that's the decision he's making.
He knows his wife better than we do. Seems like he's got good thing going. Advice to read sex at dawn and be more ethically slutty is just gonna cause drama.
Ethically slutty is superior to unethically slutty, but I think this can be covered by a higher level of ethics. We only live once and if he's scratching an itch that brings him much pleasure and is smart about keeping it a secret, then he's not hurting anyone, except maybe himself in the sense that he's withholding a part of himself from his wife, but that's the decision he's making.
144
I don't understand why so many people are sure this is a fake letter. This could have been written by me, more or less, about 15 years ago. But after 2 years of my post-workout releases, I started thinking about him all the time. I started thinking about sucking him off and then got him to admit he wanted to feel what it was like. I was terrible at it but wanted nothing more than to become an expert. About that time my wife found a jizzed-up workout towel in the laundry and confronted me about it. I tried to blow it off but she told me it wasn't the first one she found.
At that point after our first fight completed, I realized that I never thought about women anymore when it came to sex. In fact, now that I think back, I think that's partially what kept me so horny all of the time. I was blowing loads but never felt satisfied.
My trainer stopped our post-workout sessions once I told him my wife and I were divorcing. He didn't want anybody to start wondering about him. He wouldn't even train me at the gym anymore.
Now I can't stop thinking about him - or somebody like him - anymore. I have memories to wank to but cant find another masculine guy for a similar arrangement. Frustrating.
At that point after our first fight completed, I realized that I never thought about women anymore when it came to sex. In fact, now that I think back, I think that's partially what kept me so horny all of the time. I was blowing loads but never felt satisfied.
My trainer stopped our post-workout sessions once I told him my wife and I were divorcing. He didn't want anybody to start wondering about him. He wouldn't even train me at the gym anymore.
Now I can't stop thinking about him - or somebody like him - anymore. I have memories to wank to but cant find another masculine guy for a similar arrangement. Frustrating.
145
@143: "Seems like SOS is making the right choice.
He knows his wife better than we do. Seems like he's got good thing going. Advice to read sex at dawn and be more ethically slutty is just gonna cause drama."
Uh, how is cheating on your partner (whom you have a great relationship /sex life with) ethical?
If your life isn't complete without being DT'd, divorce her and move on. There are no ethics in this situation.
He knows his wife better than we do. Seems like he's got good thing going. Advice to read sex at dawn and be more ethically slutty is just gonna cause drama."
Uh, how is cheating on your partner (whom you have a great relationship /sex life with) ethical?
If your life isn't complete without being DT'd, divorce her and move on. There are no ethics in this situation.
146
123/ankylosaur: Second, a man playing with a man is exactly the moral equivalent of a man playing with a woman -- in both cases, it's sex with a human being.
Yes,they are morally equivalent. But in most cases, probably not emotionally equivalent.
At #7, Erica said I'd ask him to think about his wife fucking other guys. Is that okay with him?
I'm absolutely certain that if a wife was cheating on her husband with a woman, he'd still see it as cheating (the moral issue) but he wouldn't be nearly as pissed off about it as he would be if she was having sex with a guy.
I'm not saying that because this guy is cheating with someone of the same sex, that excuses his behavior. It doesn't. I'm just suggesting that if he might not have a problem with his wife cheating on him, as long as she's doing it with a woman, then he might be using that as a rationalization for it being "okay" for him to cheat on his wife with a man.
Yes,they are morally equivalent. But in most cases, probably not emotionally equivalent.
At #7, Erica said I'd ask him to think about his wife fucking other guys. Is that okay with him?
I'm absolutely certain that if a wife was cheating on her husband with a woman, he'd still see it as cheating (the moral issue) but he wouldn't be nearly as pissed off about it as he would be if she was having sex with a guy.
I'm not saying that because this guy is cheating with someone of the same sex, that excuses his behavior. It doesn't. I'm just suggesting that if he might not have a problem with his wife cheating on him, as long as she's doing it with a woman, then he might be using that as a rationalization for it being "okay" for him to cheat on his wife with a man.
147
@146: "I'm just suggesting that if he might not have a problem with his wife cheating on him, as long as she's doing it with a woman, then he might be using that as a rationalization for it being "okay" for him to cheat on his wife with a man."
CPOS' use advanced sophistry to justify their actions. Sometimes, in the bedridden "we can never have sex again" it can be argued to be more morally justified, but I don't see what that particular rationalization does. I mean, sure, we can try to understand his mindset, but the rationalization doesn't change the act in the wife's reality.
CPOS' use advanced sophistry to justify their actions. Sometimes, in the bedridden "we can never have sex again" it can be argued to be more morally justified, but I don't see what that particular rationalization does. I mean, sure, we can try to understand his mindset, but the rationalization doesn't change the act in the wife's reality.
148
I mean, sure, we can try to understand his mindset, but the rationalization doesn't change the act in the wife's reality.
That's what I was trying to do and yes, it doesn't.
That's what I was trying to do and yes, it doesn't.
149
I know, I just think it's irrelevant to the reality around him and a wasted effort. The specifics of the fantasy world one creates around oneself and excuses to follow are all generally the same.
150
@Roma, who wrote: "Yes,they [man-man and man-woman sex] are morally equivalent. But in most cases, probably not emotionally equivalent."
I don't see why. Is it some sort of wife vs. mistress distinction, or Madonna-Whore complex transferred to bisexual relations? So that if a guy has sex with a guy, this is less 'emotional' than a guy having sex with a woman? Or are you maybe claiming that, since women are 'more emotional', anything a guy does with a woman is bound to be more emotional than it would be to do it with another guy?
Anyway, I beg to differ. If guy-guy relationships tend to be terse and not emotionally involved, it's probably because society tells us that guy-guy sex is 'wrong'-ish. (Friendships between men can get quite emotionally involved, for instance.)
I don't see why. Is it some sort of wife vs. mistress distinction, or Madonna-Whore complex transferred to bisexual relations? So that if a guy has sex with a guy, this is less 'emotional' than a guy having sex with a woman? Or are you maybe claiming that, since women are 'more emotional', anything a guy does with a woman is bound to be more emotional than it would be to do it with another guy?
Anyway, I beg to differ. If guy-guy relationships tend to be terse and not emotionally involved, it's probably because society tells us that guy-guy sex is 'wrong'-ish. (Friendships between men can get quite emotionally involved, for instance.)
151
WTFUCK Dan? What happened to the "open" in open relationships? I get your argument for why fake letters are okay sometimes ('my cock is too big for my wife to suck, but this masculine dude is just so good at it!' = pretty fake) but to not even mention that he should be at least disclose the barest of minimums to his wife...irresponsible Dan.
152
@ undead ayn rand
sure. He could get a divorce if he can't live without being deep-throated. Or he could just get deep-throated, which is what he's doing, and less dramatic.
also: THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!
sure. He could get a divorce if he can't live without being deep-throated. Or he could just get deep-throated, which is what he's doing, and less dramatic.
also: THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!
153
@150, yes, plus look at what he says @136: "The dude I'm buds with, we clearly have more going on other than "friendship" (which was genuine to begin with), and if either of us wanted to call it quits we would."
So it's not as unemotional as all that. I'd recommend that he read @144, and, if he doesn't like that future, he might try investing in many boxes of kleenex.
So it's not as unemotional as all that. I'd recommend that he read @144, and, if he doesn't like that future, he might try investing in many boxes of kleenex.
154
150/ankylsoaur, I believe you misunderstood what I wrote (or I didn't do a good enough job of conveying what I meant.) I wasn't saying that man-man sex cannot be as emotionally equivalent as man-woman sex is for the partners involved. I was saying that, when someone is cheating on their partner, if they're cheating with someone of the opposite sex, I believe it probably packs a different emotional punch to the partner being cheated on than if they're cheating with someone of the same sex. For example, as I said above, if a wife was cheating on her husband with a woman, he'd see it as cheating but I'm absolutely certain that he wouldn't be nearly as pissed off about it as he would be if she was having sex with a guy.
155
@154 - you can't predict the resulting emotions. Some people might not mind so much if their spouse took up with a same-sex partner; others might kick the cheater out of the house as a "goddamn lesbian/fag."
The LW himself suggests at 136 that he wouldn't care if she were with a man or a woman, as long as she was "safe." Be nice if he would tell her that...
The LW himself suggests at 136 that he wouldn't care if she were with a man or a woman, as long as she was "safe." Be nice if he would tell her that...
156
@155 Erica
Just for argument sake suppose the wife would rather not know (ignorance is bliss?) as the LW has implied. In her world, the sex is great, her husband/ family is great. She doesn't like giving head but that doesn't bother her beyond "sorry honey, you'll just have to live without it because I don't like it".
The LW states (@ 136) he now feels less resentment toward her and that will come across as a benefit to her in a lot of little ways.
Now impose the moral authority of the TRUTH. Who benefits?
Just for argument sake suppose the wife would rather not know (ignorance is bliss?) as the LW has implied. In her world, the sex is great, her husband/ family is great. She doesn't like giving head but that doesn't bother her beyond "sorry honey, you'll just have to live without it because I don't like it".
The LW states (@ 136) he now feels less resentment toward her and that will come across as a benefit to her in a lot of little ways.
Now impose the moral authority of the TRUTH. Who benefits?
157
@156 Cheaters invariably think their partner would rather not know. Me, I preferred to know. Doctors used to not tell their dying patients the truth. That was easier on the doctor. But I think most patients prefer to know the truth of their lives. I'm not going to give absolution for someone lying to his wife. On the other hand, it doesn't sound like the LW cares what I think, any more than he cares what his wife would want, if she knew the truth.
158
@157 Erica,
You are a rare gem (i mean that). Most people in your situation would have ended it I think - that is the default I think. Most are too proud to overcome / forgive such "betrayal". I think the truth is generally a good thing but it gets beat to death as the ultimate moral high ground. Everyone thinks they want to know the truth but I suspect they are pretty happy not to (for example, I know I should watch Food inc. but I also know enough about factory farming to know I don't really want to know the whole truth). I've had experiences in my life where I told the truth which begat a shit storm that, in retrospect, a lie would have been the better path.
Anyway, I'm not trying to beat you up. I just empathize with this guy. I'm in a similar situation with my relationship in that I'm not as sexually satisfied as her. We have an otherwise great life / kids etc. Our sex is the best quality vanilla available and when we do have it, we both enjoy it. She knows I'm not satisfied but like, why can't I just be happy - we have good sex don't we?
Any option (more/varied sex = pressure, fuck buddy=not a chance) that would make me more happy would make her less happy because she is happy now.
So what are the options? End it or sabatoge it (cheat) or live with it. Live with it being the least painful but I do resent her and it comes across some times.
You are a rare gem (i mean that). Most people in your situation would have ended it I think - that is the default I think. Most are too proud to overcome / forgive such "betrayal". I think the truth is generally a good thing but it gets beat to death as the ultimate moral high ground. Everyone thinks they want to know the truth but I suspect they are pretty happy not to (for example, I know I should watch Food inc. but I also know enough about factory farming to know I don't really want to know the whole truth). I've had experiences in my life where I told the truth which begat a shit storm that, in retrospect, a lie would have been the better path.
Anyway, I'm not trying to beat you up. I just empathize with this guy. I'm in a similar situation with my relationship in that I'm not as sexually satisfied as her. We have an otherwise great life / kids etc. Our sex is the best quality vanilla available and when we do have it, we both enjoy it. She knows I'm not satisfied but like, why can't I just be happy - we have good sex don't we?
Any option (more/varied sex = pressure, fuck buddy=not a chance) that would make me more happy would make her less happy because she is happy now.
So what are the options? End it or sabatoge it (cheat) or live with it. Live with it being the least painful but I do resent her and it comes across some times.
159
If you're hiding it, you're cheating.
If there'd be a big blowup if you got found out, you're cheating.
If you haven't discussed it with your spouse and gotten your spouse's okay for the activity, you're cheating.
If you would flip your lid if you found your partner was doing exactly the same thing, you're cheating.
I can't believe anyone is even considering calling this guy "poly." He's no such thing. He's lying and he's cheating. If he doesn't sit down with his wife and tell her, look, this is something I feel I really need, and we need to discuss opening up the relationship at least this far and GET HER AGREEMENT, then he is a CPOS.
And use a condom, for crissakes.
If there'd be a big blowup if you got found out, you're cheating.
If you haven't discussed it with your spouse and gotten your spouse's okay for the activity, you're cheating.
If you would flip your lid if you found your partner was doing exactly the same thing, you're cheating.
I can't believe anyone is even considering calling this guy "poly." He's no such thing. He's lying and he's cheating. If he doesn't sit down with his wife and tell her, look, this is something I feel I really need, and we need to discuss opening up the relationship at least this far and GET HER AGREEMENT, then he is a CPOS.
And use a condom, for crissakes.
160
(Oh, and just out of curiosity - I wonder how often he goes down on his wife, or otherwise indulges her in something equivalent for HER pleasure? Or is just being graced with his presence and his bountiful endowment supposed to be sufficient?)
161
@158 I'm sorry for your situation. It sucks when the world gives us pain and frustration instead of just pleasure. Is there any way that you can try to move the relationship towards more openness to different sexual practices / different sexual partners, through the use of fantasy in bed, or suggesting books to read, or figuring out new ways to blow her mind sexually?
162
@152: "sure. He could get a divorce if he can't live without being deep-throated. Or he could just get deep-throated, which is what he's doing, and less dramatic.
also: THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!"
Uh, he knew what he was getting into when he was married, and has a rich sex life.
I'm sure the children would rather his dad not have emotional AND sexual relationships, let along bringing STIs back to the mother. You do not need two parents if one's more concerned with his cock than he is them.
also: THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!"
Uh, he knew what he was getting into when he was married, and has a rich sex life.
I'm sure the children would rather his dad not have emotional AND sexual relationships, let along bringing STIs back to the mother. You do not need two parents if one's more concerned with his cock than he is them.
163
Ms Erica @161 - You are starting to remind me of Sir William Bradshaw. Mr Ank also called that character to mind back in the offensive language threads.
I do think sometimes people just rant to rant. But you provide a refreshing counter to that ghastly Venus-Mars paradigm.
I do think sometimes people just rant to rant. But you provide a refreshing counter to that ghastly Venus-Mars paradigm.
164
@161 thanks. I'll survive!
It is difficult to broach the subject without getting a "why you picking a fight" response. Other partners are out of the question.
As for new ways to blow her mind sexually - I'm all ears...
It is difficult to broach the subject without getting a "why you picking a fight" response. Other partners are out of the question.
As for new ways to blow her mind sexually - I'm all ears...
165
@164, what does she like? I don't have any one-size-fits-all sex advice or I'd have made millions by now on the internets. Have you had conversations about secret fantasies she may have? For years I didn't let myself fantasize about people I knew in real life -- seemed like tempting fate. And I only fantasized during masturbation, never during intercourse, for fear of being "unfaithful in my heart." And never out loud, for fear of hurting his feelings. Our sex life is hotter without those restrictions. Try reassuring her that you know your marriage is strong, and it can take any kind of fantasy she might want to indulge in... Fantasies are just words, but if you guys can share fantasies with each other, that can lead further. Plus it's just hot :-)
166
@165
Thanks for the advice. She is not very talkative during or about sex but the last time we had sex (more than a month ago) she seemed to really enjoy being stretched open - I had four fingers inside and she was out of her mind. Maybe she has a fisting/large cock kink - I think I'll probe that possibility...
Thanks for the advice. She is not very talkative during or about sex but the last time we had sex (more than a month ago) she seemed to really enjoy being stretched open - I had four fingers inside and she was out of her mind. Maybe she has a fisting/large cock kink - I think I'll probe that possibility...
167
Thanks for explaining, Mthrfckr. I think you should push harder to get her to open up about sex. I don't think women in the 21st century get to go through life saying "Not only am I not going to have sex unless I really want it, but I'm not even going to talk about sex, or ways to bring more sexual excitement into our relationship, because that's icky."
Read the book Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch. Get into counseling yourself, with someone who takes your sexual needs seriously and doesn't try to talk you out of them. And if possible, try to get her to go to joint counseling, again with someone who understands male sexuality.
And, yeah, in the meantime, do that thing that sent her out of her mind again a few times :-)
Read the book Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch. Get into counseling yourself, with someone who takes your sexual needs seriously and doesn't try to talk you out of them. And if possible, try to get her to go to joint counseling, again with someone who understands male sexuality.
And, yeah, in the meantime, do that thing that sent her out of her mind again a few times :-)
169
I can't help but wonder if there's something this guy's wife wants sexually (or DOESN'T want) that she's foregoing for the sake of saving their marriage. Maybe she really likes being eaten out and he doesn't like muff diving. Maybe she can't get enough anal, but he's not venturing into Brown Town.
These two need to schedule a meeting to discuss their sexual likes/dislikes/Wants/Needs. Make a fucking list and present it. Both spouses review their partner's likes/dislikes/wants/needs and either approves or disapproves of each line item. When they're through, they'll be able to see just how much their partner is prepared to offer them sexually. If they have issue with how much or how little each is getting/giving, they can discuss alternative options.
But seriously, stop letting your trainer blow you. He may be amazing, but that's crossing a professional line.
These two need to schedule a meeting to discuss their sexual likes/dislikes/Wants/Needs. Make a fucking list and present it. Both spouses review their partner's likes/dislikes/wants/needs and either approves or disapproves of each line item. When they're through, they'll be able to see just how much their partner is prepared to offer them sexually. If they have issue with how much or how little each is getting/giving, they can discuss alternative options.
But seriously, stop letting your trainer blow you. He may be amazing, but that's crossing a professional line.
170
I can't help but wonder if there's something this guy's wife wants sexually (or DOESN'T want) that she's foregoing for the sake of saving their marriage. Maybe she really likes being eaten out and he doesn't like muff diving. Maybe she can't get enough anal, but he's not venturing into Brown Town.
These two need to schedule a meeting to discuss their sexual likes/dislikes/Wants/Needs. Make a fucking list and present it. Both spouses review their partner's likes/dislikes/wants/needs and either approves or disapproves of each line item. When they're through, they'll be able to see just how much their partner is prepared to offer them sexually. If they have issue with how much or how little each is getting/giving, they can discuss alternative options.
But seriously, stop letting your trainer blow you. He may be amazing, but that's crossing a professional line.
These two need to schedule a meeting to discuss their sexual likes/dislikes/Wants/Needs. Make a fucking list and present it. Both spouses review their partner's likes/dislikes/wants/needs and either approves or disapproves of each line item. When they're through, they'll be able to see just how much their partner is prepared to offer them sexually. If they have issue with how much or how little each is getting/giving, they can discuss alternative options.
But seriously, stop letting your trainer blow you. He may be amazing, but that's crossing a professional line.
171
159/Geni: If you're hiding it, you're cheating.
If there'd be a big blowup if you got found out, you're cheating.
If you haven't discussed it with your spouse and gotten your spouse's okay for the activity, you're cheating.
If you would flip your lid if you found your partner was doing exactly the same thing, you're cheating.
I agree with you on the first three, but not necessarily the last one. In this case, the guy might very well not be angry if he found out that his partner was doing the same thing, having someone of the same sex go down on her, but what he's doing is still cheating (due to your first three reasons.)
*
Erica, in case you're still checking this thread... a very unscientific poll of four guys I work with and five friends found out that none of them said they'd be as angry about their wife or girlfriend having sex with a woman as they would be if she was having sex with a man. Two of them said they would find it hot. You can, of course, argue that this is just what they're saying and that the reality would be quite different, but I don't think reality would be all that different. (They all did agree that it would be cheating, regardless of who their wife or girlfriend slept with.)
If there'd be a big blowup if you got found out, you're cheating.
If you haven't discussed it with your spouse and gotten your spouse's okay for the activity, you're cheating.
If you would flip your lid if you found your partner was doing exactly the same thing, you're cheating.
I agree with you on the first three, but not necessarily the last one. In this case, the guy might very well not be angry if he found out that his partner was doing the same thing, having someone of the same sex go down on her, but what he's doing is still cheating (due to your first three reasons.)
*
Erica, in case you're still checking this thread... a very unscientific poll of four guys I work with and five friends found out that none of them said they'd be as angry about their wife or girlfriend having sex with a woman as they would be if she was having sex with a man. Two of them said they would find it hot. You can, of course, argue that this is just what they're saying and that the reality would be quite different, but I don't think reality would be all that different. (They all did agree that it would be cheating, regardless of who their wife or girlfriend slept with.)
172
@171, I think the details would matter. If she were having sex with a woman they both knew well (say, the wife-half of a couple they see socially, or a lesbian that the man doesn't care much for), then I think the specifics of that relationship might trump the pure fact of gender. That's what I was arguing @155 -- that no one except the wronged-partner really knows how he/she will respond to an actual confession of infidelity. Guessing at that response, in order to justify cheating, is common, but cowardly, in my opinion.
173
There are those who say that he should leave the wife, because what he's doing now to the wife and kids is unacceptable, but wouldn't leaving them be worse? I know that talking to the wife sounds like the best first thing to do, but we all know that the vast majority of wives would not give this a green light. So, would wifey and kids really be better off if homeboy just split, rather than continue what he's doing?
174
@173 - he doesn't have to pre-emptively leave, he has to face the possibility of divorce, if she doesn't like his new arrangement.
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