Slog
News & ArtsThursday, December 1, 2011
1
[Skateboard Kid] {falls over rail} That rail is so gay! {Outraged Kid appears and punches him} Owww! What was that for?
[Outraged kid] Don't say gay! It's mean and it's offensive. {punches skateboard kid again}
[Skateboard kid] Owww!! What was that one for?
[Outraged kid] For being stupid.
[On screen, voice over from Outraged Kid] When you say something is gay, do you realize what you say? Knock it off!
[ends]
[Outraged kid] Don't say gay! It's mean and it's offensive. {punches skateboard kid again}
[Skateboard kid] Owww!! What was that one for?
[Outraged kid] For being stupid.
[On screen, voice over from Outraged Kid] When you say something is gay, do you realize what you say? Knock it off!
[ends]
3
Er... am I the first person to notice free (if offensive) speech being put down with violence? I just think it undermines the whole point of the short--that being mean and offensive isn't cool--that the kid saying that is being both mean and offensive at the same time. If this is a commercial, I hope it doesn't go on television, it would do more harm than good.
6
CONTINUITY ERROR! At the beginning of the video, the garage door is closed. Halfway through, the door is mysteriously open.
7
Is it because I'm straight that I just don't get what's so offensive? Most of the gay guys I know call themselves fags, no problem. A few get upset if "breeders" call them fags...and I don't hang out with them. Personally, I feel like a word only has power if you give it power. Saying something is gay is ingrained in us from childhood, like retarded. It's a matter of context, not vocabulary.
IMHO it's fine to tell someone something is offensive to YOU, but quit assuming it's offensive to everyone else, too! Sticks and stones and all that. Some of us really don't care what vocabulary words people use, but rather how they use them.
IMHO it's fine to tell someone something is offensive to YOU, but quit assuming it's offensive to everyone else, too! Sticks and stones and all that. Some of us really don't care what vocabulary words people use, but rather how they use them.
8
@7 I can promise you that the vast majority of gay people are offended by that use of the word. Additionally, no, no straight person ever gets to use the f word. Certainly not you. Perhaps you should do a little reading and gain a little more awareness before commenting. Finally, whether it offends straight person you is not the point, no one cares. Thanks.
9
In the words of Simon Amstell, anyone who thinks using the word in this way is offensive can Jew off, and stop being so bloody Black about it.
10
@7, well some of us DON'T say "retarded" because we find it offensive and we're annoyed that others do. Same with gay.
11
I agree with @3 - hateful speech should be met with more speech, not violence. Of course that doesn't make a great commercial.
I'm all for the message, but I think that this commercial will just give the hatemongers fuel.
I'm all for the message, but I think that this commercial will just give the hatemongers fuel.
12
@11 and others - it's not really a commercial. Here's what the poster says about it on youtube:
In 8th grade we had a PSA project. ( Public Service Announcement) Don't Say Gay. I chose a funny way to present it. Subscribe! And thanks to my little brother for being the star!
So it's one kid's response to the pervasive use of "gay" in his school. I think it's pretty awesome.
In 8th grade we had a PSA project. ( Public Service Announcement) Don't Say Gay. I chose a funny way to present it. Subscribe! And thanks to my little brother for being the star!
So it's one kid's response to the pervasive use of "gay" in his school. I think it's pretty awesome.
13
@7 I'm with you. I don't use the word because it doesn't feel right, but because of the words "gay" and "faggot" ever changing history, I just don't put it on the same level as other words that are universally accepted as offensive. The fact is those words don't only define homosexuals so I have trouble lending credence to the idea that homosexuals, as a group, hold the monopoly on the usage of the word.
14
Not for you to say JF, and not our word to use.
We heteros can all just know our places on this one, I mean that sincerely.
It's like Tim Minchin says: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVN_0qvuh…
We heteros can all just know our places on this one, I mean that sincerely.
It's like Tim Minchin says: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVN_0qvuh…
15
Most of the gay guys I know call themselves fags, no problem.Are you upset you can't say "nigger" to black people either?
16
@14 I think you think I'm trying to say "Man, I'd love to go around calling things 'gay' or 'faggot' without being labeled a homophobe". Trust me, I'm not. I have no interest in using those words. If someone, anyone, wants to be offended by those words, it's nothing I am going to question. But to sit here and say those words are exclusively insults to homosexuals his historically inaccurate (that's all, I was trying to say in my comment in 13, so I apologize if I wasn't clear).
Lastly, and I probably should have started with this, I don't play the "claim the word" game. Others may, but I do not, because we have not found an equitable way to divide up the power on who gets to claim a word and who doesn't. I never hear anyone having these kinds of conversations whenever the word "lame" gets casually thrown around. I believe it's because we've decided the disabled don't have the right to claim that word and that makes no sense to me. So until all groups get to claim words without judgement or denial, I'll decide on a case by case basis as to what I think is in and out of bounds and not let others make that decision for me. For example: I think using the word "gay" or "faggot" is inappropriate and choose not to use it to describe people or situations.
Lastly, and I probably should have started with this, I don't play the "claim the word" game. Others may, but I do not, because we have not found an equitable way to divide up the power on who gets to claim a word and who doesn't. I never hear anyone having these kinds of conversations whenever the word "lame" gets casually thrown around. I believe it's because we've decided the disabled don't have the right to claim that word and that makes no sense to me. So until all groups get to claim words without judgement or denial, I'll decide on a case by case basis as to what I think is in and out of bounds and not let others make that decision for me. For example: I think using the word "gay" or "faggot" is inappropriate and choose not to use it to describe people or situations.
17
I don't want to be associated with any add that uses violence to get a point across... any point.
Otherwise, the opposite ad could also be run so that a person says "you are so gay because you hit someone." The means matters.
Otherwise, the opposite ad could also be run so that a person says "you are so gay because you hit someone." The means matters.
19
hey Danny!
Great Post!!
Such an important issue....
Did you know that every time a 10 year old says "gay" god gives another faggot AIDS?
Great Post!!
Such an important issue....
Did you know that every time a 10 year old says "gay" god gives another faggot AIDS?
20
@15 If "nigger" was consistently used to describe something OTHER than black people, yes, I would want to use it. I don't have a problem with words. If a word is the first thing that pops into my head, then I use it. I surround myself with people who feel the same. In mixed company I try to watch my language but I'm not going to completely change my way of thinking overnight.
@10 More power to you for not using words that some find offensive.
I find the words "stupid" and "hate" offensive, but that doesn't mean you can't use them around me. It just means I would be offended if you called ME stupid or offensive. I personally try not to use them, but even I find myself using them because they are common societal terms.
I'm just saying if you don't like the way someone talks, tell them tactfully. If they refuse to change, then walk away. Don't try to make people change just because you don't like a word. There are far more important things to worry about than vocabulary.
@10 More power to you for not using words that some find offensive.
I find the words "stupid" and "hate" offensive, but that doesn't mean you can't use them around me. It just means I would be offended if you called ME stupid or offensive. I personally try not to use them, but even I find myself using them because they are common societal terms.
I'm just saying if you don't like the way someone talks, tell them tactfully. If they refuse to change, then walk away. Don't try to make people change just because you don't like a word. There are far more important things to worry about than vocabulary.
21
@7 - The mentally disabled people that my friend works with have told her multiple times how much it hurt that "retarded" was a universal insult at school. ("Why do we have to do jump rope in PE? That's retarded.") The gay people I know say the same thing about "gay" being used to mean "bad."
Heck, I get annoyed when people use "like a girl" to mean "weak" or "cowardly" or "irrational." ("C'mon, man, just go over the ski jump! Don't be a girl!") It's insulting to have a key aspect of your identity be designated as uncool and wrong.
Heck, I get annoyed when people use "like a girl" to mean "weak" or "cowardly" or "irrational." ("C'mon, man, just go over the ski jump! Don't be a girl!") It's insulting to have a key aspect of your identity be designated as uncool and wrong.
22
@13, 16 Did someone say that "gay" and "faggot" have exclusively been used for homosexual people throughout history? Because I missed that part. I also don't really see why it would be relevant if, for example, "nigger" had previously been used as an insult for Native Americans and then previously as an insult for swarthy people and previously as an insult for the Welsh or something - a changing history doesn't seem relevant to whether it's offensive in our modern context and "nigger" wouldn't be more acceptable simply because it had been used to put down other groups in the past. Words are not entities unto themselves, the fact that "faggot" has changed through history doesn't mean it will continue to change, it doesn't mean that there's something special about "faggot" and "ever-changing" is some property inherent to the sequence of sounds that make up "faggot". The word "faggot" doesn't have a personality unto itself that is distinct from other words. The fact that it has changed so much in the past really is completely irrelevant to what it will do in the future or how we should use it in the present.
"Faggot" is, in our modern context, only a slur for gay people (that is, in the US, obviously in the UK it can also refer to cigarettes and even a type of meatball). Also in our modern context, aside from some old songs and things, "gay" is pretty much only used for "homosexual" and it is the term that the gay community self-identifies with. It is also pretty undeniable that the modern use of the word as a generic pejorative is linked to prejudice against gay people. At the very least as the origin of that particular usage. Perhaps you think that some kids today grow up using the word as an insult without it influencing their opinion of gay people and without being homophobic - although I personally find that dubious, it certainly started being used that way because of hate for gay people. What relevance does how it was used in the 1800s have to those facts?
And we don't have a "monopoly" on those words anymore than black people have a "monopoly" on "nigger" (witness Rick Perry's hunting grounds). But they do tend to have a different meaning and interpretation coming out of a gay person's mouth than out of a straight person's mouth, and I'm sorry if that feels like us homos are holding some kind of "privilege" over you. If you're not homophobic and people know where you're coming from (as a non-celebrity, that probably just means your friends), you might be able to use those words without offending anyone. But among people who don't, they'll interpret them the same way they interpret them out of any random straight person's mouth - as homophobic insults. That's not a monopoly, that's just a sensible interpretation of people's usage, based on experience.
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"Faggot" is, in our modern context, only a slur for gay people (that is, in the US, obviously in the UK it can also refer to cigarettes and even a type of meatball). Also in our modern context, aside from some old songs and things, "gay" is pretty much only used for "homosexual" and it is the term that the gay community self-identifies with. It is also pretty undeniable that the modern use of the word as a generic pejorative is linked to prejudice against gay people. At the very least as the origin of that particular usage. Perhaps you think that some kids today grow up using the word as an insult without it influencing their opinion of gay people and without being homophobic - although I personally find that dubious, it certainly started being used that way because of hate for gay people. What relevance does how it was used in the 1800s have to those facts?
And we don't have a "monopoly" on those words anymore than black people have a "monopoly" on "nigger" (witness Rick Perry's hunting grounds). But they do tend to have a different meaning and interpretation coming out of a gay person's mouth than out of a straight person's mouth, and I'm sorry if that feels like us homos are holding some kind of "privilege" over you. If you're not homophobic and people know where you're coming from (as a non-celebrity, that probably just means your friends), you might be able to use those words without offending anyone. But among people who don't, they'll interpret them the same way they interpret them out of any random straight person's mouth - as homophobic insults. That's not a monopoly, that's just a sensible interpretation of people's usage, based on experience.
24
Name-calling is only hurtful between the ages of 6 and 16. After that, you grow up and get over it. (Unless, of course you are mentally disabled, which is why "retarded" is always off limits.)
As an adult male homosexual, I don't get offended anymore when someone refers to me as "gay." I just gently remind them that my preferred term is "nancy" or "fudgepacker."
As an adult male homosexual, I don't get offended anymore when someone refers to me as "gay." I just gently remind them that my preferred term is "nancy" or "fudgepacker."
25
What post 21 said.
The idea that you shouldn't be offended if it isn't directed at you misses the point. If you ARE gay, and people use the term 'gay' to mean bad, they ARE directing at you, even if they don't realize it. Gay = Bad. You are Gay. You = Bad.
It's not as if "gay" went from meaning a person attracted to the same gender to meaning bad, and this is some kind of transition of meaning. "Gay" began being used to mean bad BECAUSE it is a term used to refer to people who are attracted to the same sex. It is inherently, at it's very root, an insult to gay people. That is why it gained the 'bad' definition in the first place.
The idea that you shouldn't be offended if it isn't directed at you misses the point. If you ARE gay, and people use the term 'gay' to mean bad, they ARE directing at you, even if they don't realize it. Gay = Bad. You are Gay. You = Bad.
It's not as if "gay" went from meaning a person attracted to the same gender to meaning bad, and this is some kind of transition of meaning. "Gay" began being used to mean bad BECAUSE it is a term used to refer to people who are attracted to the same sex. It is inherently, at it's very root, an insult to gay people. That is why it gained the 'bad' definition in the first place.
26
Relevant to this Fag/Gay debate: "The F Word."
@6: The little kid smacked him so hard that first time, it threw open the garage door.
@6: The little kid smacked him so hard that first time, it threw open the garage door.
27
@22 I don't think so, but people's reaction to the word certainly imply that it is always has, currently is, and will always be a gay insult. In other words: when a 10 year old falls off a rail and calls the rail "gay" he MUST be using it in connection to actual homosexuals. Now this is where you and I differ in opinion. As you mentioned, you find it dubious to "use the word as an insult without it influencing their opinion of gay people and without being homophobi", but I feel differently. Perhaps you're right and I'm being dubious and naive by saying the connection doesn't always exist. But perhaps I'm right and the user has nary a homophobic bone in their body, just a tendency to take to slang. The reason I think the history is relevant is to show that the word doesn't always mean one thing: in the past, currently, and in the future. Kind of like the word "marriage." I, for one, hope that it can change one more time to include two men or two women without having to add the word "Gay" in front of it.
Regardless, I feel like you're trying to paint me as someone who wants to go around calling things "gay" or people "fags" and I really need to drive this home, I am not asking for the right to use that word without being labeled a homophobe. I understand people are offended by it, so I don't use it.
Regardless, I feel like you're trying to paint me as someone who wants to go around calling things "gay" or people "fags" and I really need to drive this home, I am not asking for the right to use that word without being labeled a homophobe. I understand people are offended by it, so I don't use it.
28
Am I the only person that doesn't like the fact that the kid correcting the "that rail is gay" kid uses his fists to drive his point home? Doesn't that go against everything the It Gets Better campaign stands for?
29
tallguy, I think that you have to look at this as a bit of satire. It isn't part of the It Gets Better campaign. It isn't part of any organized or official campaign. It was just some kind who got his brother to do a version of the Don't Say Gay ads for fun.
I doubt that any of the people who have gotten a kick out of the video are really advocating violence against anyone. It is just a vicarious chuckle because most of us have probably imagined doing it, even if we never actually would. You know, like how much of comedy works.
Also, just a point of clarity, the kid doesn't punch him. He slaps him with an open hand.
I doubt that any of the people who have gotten a kick out of the video are really advocating violence against anyone. It is just a vicarious chuckle because most of us have probably imagined doing it, even if we never actually would. You know, like how much of comedy works.
Also, just a point of clarity, the kid doesn't punch him. He slaps him with an open hand.
30
@27 it's think it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that the 10 year old is familiar with the history of the term. Etymology is of interest to linguists and dictionary editors, and most people are unaware of it. This isn't a difference of opinion, it is silly to think that the history of the word in the 1800s is in the minds of kids who are using it today. And it's also silly to argue that the word has changed so much in the past couple decades that somehow kids are unaware that it also means "homosexual" or that they don't make any connection between the insults. Are you also arguing that "faggot" simply means a detestable person in their usage? Is it irrelevant that when someone is being annoying many people say "stop being such a fag" in addition to "stop acting so gay"? Other terms for gay are used in the same way, because people do recognize the connection.
I'll also tell you as someone who grew up hearing the word gay used as an insult and at the same time was realizing that he was gay, that I definitely made the connection in my mind. Not coincidentally, the community I grew up in was also homophobic. But even my friends who ended up not being cool with me being gay used the word, and it did hurt. But of course as soon as they realized that, they stopped using the word that way. So I don't think it's particularly relevant if there are a few kids who don't make that connection. It still contributes to a environment of homophobia, and certainly the kids who are homophobic recognize and approve of the connection. I don't think making excuses for people who want to use it as an insult helps anything.
And yes, obviously words can be polysemous, but it's a pretty trivial point to say that words can mean different things. And the history of "faggot" through the centuries is tangential to that point. You don't need to make any reference to history to show that words can have many meanings - you can just look at the word "right" for a good example (right side, right correct, right angle, legal rights, right-wing). The question is whether the senses "homosexual" and "awkward, stupid or bad" are seen as related senses, or whether they would be seen as distinct in the way that left, as in left side, isn't seen as having a semantic relation to the past tense of leave. And to make that argument, you would have to look at current usage, not make references to how the word's meaning has changed in the past. Its meaning in the 1800s is irrelevant to the argument that people using it as an insult today don't see a semantic connection between that use and its use as a term for homosexual. And I think that people do see a semantic connection between the terms.
And don't worry, I'm not viewing you as someone who wants to go around calling everyone faggot. I saw that you said you don't use the terms, I was just taking issue with your argument *as a linguist*.
@24 of course, the use of "gay" as a generic pejorative is most prevalent among school kids, and people don't start being gay only as adults, so I think it's entirely appropriate to object to the usage even if you agree that namecalling only matters for children.
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I'll also tell you as someone who grew up hearing the word gay used as an insult and at the same time was realizing that he was gay, that I definitely made the connection in my mind. Not coincidentally, the community I grew up in was also homophobic. But even my friends who ended up not being cool with me being gay used the word, and it did hurt. But of course as soon as they realized that, they stopped using the word that way. So I don't think it's particularly relevant if there are a few kids who don't make that connection. It still contributes to a environment of homophobia, and certainly the kids who are homophobic recognize and approve of the connection. I don't think making excuses for people who want to use it as an insult helps anything.
And yes, obviously words can be polysemous, but it's a pretty trivial point to say that words can mean different things. And the history of "faggot" through the centuries is tangential to that point. You don't need to make any reference to history to show that words can have many meanings - you can just look at the word "right" for a good example (right side, right correct, right angle, legal rights, right-wing). The question is whether the senses "homosexual" and "awkward, stupid or bad" are seen as related senses, or whether they would be seen as distinct in the way that left, as in left side, isn't seen as having a semantic relation to the past tense of leave. And to make that argument, you would have to look at current usage, not make references to how the word's meaning has changed in the past. Its meaning in the 1800s is irrelevant to the argument that people using it as an insult today don't see a semantic connection between that use and its use as a term for homosexual. And I think that people do see a semantic connection between the terms.
And don't worry, I'm not viewing you as someone who wants to go around calling everyone faggot. I saw that you said you don't use the terms, I was just taking issue with your argument *as a linguist*.
@24 of course, the use of "gay" as a generic pejorative is most prevalent among school kids, and people don't start being gay only as adults, so I think it's entirely appropriate to object to the usage even if you agree that namecalling only matters for children.
31
@26 I think that episode makes a stupid argument, for much the same reasons I've been giving here. The history of the word "faggot" is irrelevant - words change, yes. "Faggot" is not some special word that will always change, as I said. There is no special property to that sequence of sounds. If you wanted to use "nigger" as the term for bikers, there'd be nothing any different about it - the fact that "nigger" hasn't had as many meanings doesn't mean that we couldn't use it as an insult for bikers if we wanted to.
Faggot is not especially amenable to that change while nigger is not, UNLESS you make reference to their actual current meanings and societal views on racism and gay people. Nigger wouldn't be used that way because we would all immediately recognize that the part that's the insult is being compared to black people, not that "nigger" is some all-purpose malleable insult that changes through time to become an insult for anyone currently disliked, with no connection to its previous meaning and nothing problematic about those changes. The fact is that in that episode, the term "faggot" acquires force as an insult due to its current meaning of "homosexual" - the insult is being compared to gay people. And the arguments that some of the characters, like Cartman, are making about not wanting to insult gay people are extremely hollow given that they've used both "gay" and "faggot" as insults where the reference to actual homosexuality is obvious. Cartman and Big Gay Al's behavior is ridiculously out of character because their whole focus (as they've admitted) is justifying a term they love to use, not a realistic examination of the term.
The "Nigger-Guy" episode of South Park, in fact, makes the exact opposite point about another slur. But while they grant deference to feelings of black people and how white people can't understand how it feels to hear that word, their point in the faggot episode is that the feelings of gay people about "faggot" don't matter because etymology blah blah blah.
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Faggot is not especially amenable to that change while nigger is not, UNLESS you make reference to their actual current meanings and societal views on racism and gay people. Nigger wouldn't be used that way because we would all immediately recognize that the part that's the insult is being compared to black people, not that "nigger" is some all-purpose malleable insult that changes through time to become an insult for anyone currently disliked, with no connection to its previous meaning and nothing problematic about those changes. The fact is that in that episode, the term "faggot" acquires force as an insult due to its current meaning of "homosexual" - the insult is being compared to gay people. And the arguments that some of the characters, like Cartman, are making about not wanting to insult gay people are extremely hollow given that they've used both "gay" and "faggot" as insults where the reference to actual homosexuality is obvious. Cartman and Big Gay Al's behavior is ridiculously out of character because their whole focus (as they've admitted) is justifying a term they love to use, not a realistic examination of the term.
The "Nigger-Guy" episode of South Park, in fact, makes the exact opposite point about another slur. But while they grant deference to feelings of black people and how white people can't understand how it feels to hear that word, their point in the faggot episode is that the feelings of gay people about "faggot" don't matter because etymology blah blah blah.
34
@33 Yeah dude I was just gonna say, the related videos suggested at the end made me feel very uncomfortable :(
36
This is a ridiculous notion -- yes, using the word like that can be offensive to gay-identifying people etc. etc., but saying that using it is 'mean and offensive' basically suggests that being gay is bad. i.e. 'Don't say shit, it's horrible!' is okay because shit *is* horrible: it's stinky and it's crappy and it's come out of your arse for a reason. As a teacher I prefer to use, 'Don't use that word as a term of abuse' if ever I overhear students using the word inappropriately.
37
@31: I'm so tired of rewriting a response that I'm going to stop trying. I have plenty of anecdotal responses or other references I could make by linking to other stuff online, but I won't. I'll just suffice to say that I stand more with JF on his response @27, or clodia @36. That said, I think I can say I understand where you come from, I just don't happen to agree with your assertions.
38
Mommaserene, I'll tell you right now that saying 'gay' when you mean something (or someone) is stupid or dumb or wrong is offensive. The context equates being homosexual with being stupid or dumb or wrong. Just because you used it that way since childhood is no reason to continue to use it in this way. If you can curb cursing in front of toddlers, grandparents, or nuns, I bet you can learn to not use 'gay' in this context.
JF, I *have* seen people call out the use of the word 'lame' to mean stupid or lesser. Also, please to see #25 about why 'gay' is used in this context. It's not value-free.
Clodia's right, that the spot over-simplified. It's using the term as an insult that is offensive, not the term itself.
Seriously, where's ankylosaur?
JF, I *have* seen people call out the use of the word 'lame' to mean stupid or lesser. Also, please to see #25 about why 'gay' is used in this context. It's not value-free.
Clodia's right, that the spot over-simplified. It's using the term as an insult that is offensive, not the term itself.
Seriously, where's ankylosaur?
39
@ForkyMcSpoon - First off my, my nintendo character avatar is better :) Secondly, very good points; they all made me reconsider the how I've thought about these words in our language - all for the better.
40
Words have more than one meaning and context is all that matters. Besides, everybody knows the more you tell a kid not to do or say something because it upsets you, the more they will do it. That's a "annoying little brother" golden rule.
I do think Hollywood needs to create a three-stooges like series with kids as the focus. The cartoon slaps (especially the sound effects) in this are both wrong and hilarious.
I do think Hollywood needs to create a three-stooges like series with kids as the focus. The cartoon slaps (especially the sound effects) in this are both wrong and hilarious.
41
Debug, if you attach a consequence, they tend to govern their behavior--at least in your presence. I don't actually recommend a dose of slapthology. Depending on how old they are, you can explain *why* it's not OK.
42
Umm, without clicking through (seriously don't want to risk it), some of the YouTube potentially-related videos that come up after look an awful lot like they could be kiddie porn, based on the preview images... :-(
43
I don't know why so many of you expect a video made by a 13-year-old boy for a middle school project to be nuanced.
Also some of you seem to be under the misapprehension that people object to the word "gay" in general. The problem is when people (mostly kids, like the ones in this eighth grader's school) use it to mean "stupid". But mostly I can't believe that an eighth grade project warrants some of the long critiques and arguments in this comments section.
Also some of you seem to be under the misapprehension that people object to the word "gay" in general. The problem is when people (mostly kids, like the ones in this eighth grader's school) use it to mean "stupid". But mostly I can't believe that an eighth grade project warrants some of the long critiques and arguments in this comments section.
44
@39 Thanks.
My avatar is chosen because it matches my IRL name, not because Paper Mario is my favorite Nintendo series... I do love Metroid too. Zelda, Metroid and Mario are like the Nintendo Holy Trinity.
@36, 38 What, I'm not good enough for you? I have a graduate degree in linguistics too, you know.
Am I gonna have to have a gay linguist showdown with Ankylosaur?
My avatar is chosen because it matches my IRL name, not because Paper Mario is my favorite Nintendo series... I do love Metroid too. Zelda, Metroid and Mario are like the Nintendo Holy Trinity.
@36, 38 What, I'm not good enough for you? I have a graduate degree in linguistics too, you know.
Am I gonna have to have a gay linguist showdown with Ankylosaur?
45
I just realized that on this issue I (and maybe others on here) are like my dad's generation that sometimes use icky racial terms but aren't really racist. I really have trouble not unthinkingly using "that's so gay" sometimes (and so does my gay best friend) but it's not like I don't think gay people shouldn't have marriage equality or anything. It's just part of the culture we were brought up in.
47
Forky, I'm sorry! In the last two weeks or so, there have been a lot of these discussions on Slog--you've probably noticed. It seemed to me that ankylosaur had an awful lot to say, and I was hoping he would come in to back you up. I should have made that more clear--that I support what you've been saying.
I would love to watch a gay linguist showdown with you and ankylosaur. I vote that Noam Chomsky, the ghost of Linus Pauling, and the lovely Catarina Del-Ray be the judges.
I would love to watch a gay linguist showdown with you and ankylosaur. I vote that Noam Chomsky, the ghost of Linus Pauling, and the lovely Catarina Del-Ray be the judges.
48
I give the violence in this a pass because it's made by kids, from a kid's viewpoint, and because of the comical role reversal (smaller boy slapping much bigger boy, bigger boy cowering in fear).
49
I feel old. When I was a kid, "gay" meant happy, and was a fairly common girl's name. I knew a couple of girls named Gay. At least one has since changed her name.
The Simpsons had the best line. One of the elementary school boys kisses a girl, and the others squirm and say, "eww, that's so gay".
Eventually, the epithet "gay" (="bad") may replace the use of gay meaning homosexual. When people say "that's lame", they aren't thinking of disabled people, and I don't know any disabled people who find that use especially offensive, despite its obvious etymology. If that happens, it might then be okay to use "gay"="bad" in polite company. But kids, we AREN'T THERE YET with "gay". And we may never be there. The primary meaning of "gay" right now (and for the foreseeable future) is still "homosexual", and the version meaning "bad" is obviously (to anyone over age 20, and to most people over age 6) a judgement on homosexuality.
As a general rule of thumb, words that offend a lot of people are offensive. It's a good idea to avoid using offensive words.
The Simpsons had the best line. One of the elementary school boys kisses a girl, and the others squirm and say, "eww, that's so gay".
Eventually, the epithet "gay" (="bad") may replace the use of gay meaning homosexual. When people say "that's lame", they aren't thinking of disabled people, and I don't know any disabled people who find that use especially offensive, despite its obvious etymology. If that happens, it might then be okay to use "gay"="bad" in polite company. But kids, we AREN'T THERE YET with "gay". And we may never be there. The primary meaning of "gay" right now (and for the foreseeable future) is still "homosexual", and the version meaning "bad" is obviously (to anyone over age 20, and to most people over age 6) a judgement on homosexuality.
As a general rule of thumb, words that offend a lot of people are offensive. It's a good idea to avoid using offensive words.
50
@13 "The fact is those words don't only define homosexuals so I have trouble lending credence to the idea that homosexuals, as a group, hold the monopoly on the usage of the word."
Actually, those words do. When people use those words to refer to anyone but gay people, they are making the implication that something is gay=inferior. When you say "that's so gay" it doesn't mean "that's so terrible" it means "that's so gay(=terrible)". Same thing with other hate terms. If I say someone is a nigger, or a wigger, I am comparing them to negative racial caricatures. If I call a woman a "bitch", it is because she is stepping outside of her gender role and being assertive. If I call a man a bitch, it's because he's stepping outside of his gender role and behaving like a whiny "uppity" woman. All of these words are terrible and should never be used, except only perhaps through reclaiming. Even then I would say that in order to reclaim these terms, they should only be used positively, to avoid reinforcing the stereotypes.
Sure, minority groups get to reclaim hate terms. You know what? Would you rather have the privilege from living in a heteronormative society as a straight person, or be able to use "faggot"? I somehow don't think you'd pick the latter. Yes, it's somewhat unfortunate that groups choose to reclaim these words because it just feeds ignoramuses like 7 and 13. But, you know, you have the upper fight in the privilege v. faggot cage fight -- so back the fuck off.
Actually, those words do. When people use those words to refer to anyone but gay people, they are making the implication that something is gay=inferior. When you say "that's so gay" it doesn't mean "that's so terrible" it means "that's so gay(=terrible)". Same thing with other hate terms. If I say someone is a nigger, or a wigger, I am comparing them to negative racial caricatures. If I call a woman a "bitch", it is because she is stepping outside of her gender role and being assertive. If I call a man a bitch, it's because he's stepping outside of his gender role and behaving like a whiny "uppity" woman. All of these words are terrible and should never be used, except only perhaps through reclaiming. Even then I would say that in order to reclaim these terms, they should only be used positively, to avoid reinforcing the stereotypes.
Sure, minority groups get to reclaim hate terms. You know what? Would you rather have the privilege from living in a heteronormative society as a straight person, or be able to use "faggot"? I somehow don't think you'd pick the latter. Yes, it's somewhat unfortunate that groups choose to reclaim these words because it just feeds ignoramuses like 7 and 13. But, you know, you have the upper fight in the privilege v. faggot cage fight -- so back the fuck off.
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