Slog
News & ArtsWednesday, December 7, 2011
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: The Monogamish Closet
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 3:41 PM
My husband and I are the pillars of society; we both work and pay taxes, we have two lovely children, we are an active part of our church community, I brought my kids to sing carols for charity this week and we host the rest of the family for Christmas. According to many of our friends, we are unusually happily married.
But we are not monogamous.
At the moment I have two more-or-less regular lovers; one a friend I sometimes sleep with, the other a sexy model who picked me up at the gym. Most of our friends and family would be absolutely horrified if they found out. It has brought us closer, we laugh more, we communicate better, appreciate each other more and have more and better sex with each other than we did before. We have also (surprisingly) made friends with our lovers, something we didn't expect.
It feels like having taken Morpheus' blue pill in the Matrix or having seen how the world REALLY works but not being able to talk openly about it. If others knew how unnecessary and oppressive the current "monogamy is the only way if you love someone" mantra is, the world would be a better place. I accept other people's choices and understand that my way of living and loving doesn't work for everyone, but I wish that I could be more open without risking my career and some close personal relationships. I hope that some time in the future, a non-monogamous lifestyle will be more accepted, and I certainly hope our kids will grow up in a world with fewer hang-ups with regards to sex. But for now, we're in the closet.Friends And Lovers And Spouses
My response after the jump...
····················
Wondering why today's letter-of-the-day isn't a question? FALAS's letter comes in response to a call in this week's "Savage Love":
Yes, yes: Every couple you know who's ever had a three-way or okayed a fling wound up divorced. And that may be true—of the couples whose three-ways and flings you know about. You know lots of couples who've had three-ways and flings who aren't divorced, but you don't know you know them. Most married couples want to be perceived as monogamous even—especially!—when they're not. So your friends who aren't divorcing as the result of a disastrous fling, affair, swinging experience, three-way, etc., aren't going to tell you about all the successful flings, affairs, etc., they've enjoyed.... ARE YOU MARRIED? Have you had successful flings, affairs, swinging experiences, and three-ways that your friends and family members will never know about? Send me an e-mail, share your story, and I'll publish it.
Married and monogamish and not out? Share your story.
2
No, it's a couple. They're just a couple who doesn't define themselves the way you & the rest of mainstream American society thinks that they should.
5
No seriously, I think these people should go into a predator database...along with those crazy chicks featured on 48 Hours who date 5 guys and get them to kill each other.
Warning to dudes...stay away!!
Warning to dudes...stay away!!
6
It sounds like FALAS's is happy and their arrangement is working well.
Still, as this is supposed to counter the idea that "every couple you know who's ever had a three-way or okayed a fling wound up divorced", I wonder if this doesn't require need more criteria for "successful flings, affairs, swinging experiences, and three-ways" than that the situation is currently working.
Somewhat arbitrarily, I offer two sticks, one that the marriage remains intact for at least a decade after the initial non-monogamy and two that the sex or other relations stemming from the non-monogamy not be a main contributer to any eventual dissolution of the marriage.
Still, as this is supposed to counter the idea that "every couple you know who's ever had a three-way or okayed a fling wound up divorced", I wonder if this doesn't require need more criteria for "successful flings, affairs, swinging experiences, and three-ways" than that the situation is currently working.
Somewhat arbitrarily, I offer two sticks, one that the marriage remains intact for at least a decade after the initial non-monogamy and two that the sex or other relations stemming from the non-monogamy not be a main contributer to any eventual dissolution of the marriage.
7
It sounds like FALAS's is happy and their arrangement is working well.
Still, as this is supposed to counter the idea that "every couple you know who's ever had a three-way or okayed a fling wound up divorced", I wonder if this doesn't require need more criteria for "successful flings, affairs, swinging experiences, and three-ways" than that the situation is currently working.
Somewhat arbitrarily, I offer two sticks, one that the marriage remains intact for at least a decade after the initial non-monogamy and two that the sex or other relations stemming from the non-monogamy not be a main contributer to any eventual dissolution of the marriage.
Still, as this is supposed to counter the idea that "every couple you know who's ever had a three-way or okayed a fling wound up divorced", I wonder if this doesn't require need more criteria for "successful flings, affairs, swinging experiences, and three-ways" than that the situation is currently working.
Somewhat arbitrarily, I offer two sticks, one that the marriage remains intact for at least a decade after the initial non-monogamy and two that the sex or other relations stemming from the non-monogamy not be a main contributer to any eventual dissolution of the marriage.
8
How special.
Anecdotal evidence is always a sound basis
for changing social policy.
Most people in their situation will end up ruining their marriage and their kids will pay the price.
That hasn't happened to these frisky bunnies.
Yet.
Anecdotal evidence is always a sound basis
for changing social policy.
Most people in their situation will end up ruining their marriage and their kids will pay the price.
That hasn't happened to these frisky bunnies.
Yet.
10
@3: I can't hear @1 over the sound of the Registered Commenter Filter for Slog and LineOut 2.0.1 GreaseMonkey userscript (http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/4858…).
11
Danny, some people with HIV have unprotected sex without infecting their partners.
They may even get away with it for weeks. Months.
Do you advocate people with HIV having unprotected sex?
Perhaps you could do a great public service,
Danny,
and collect stories from HIV infected people who had unprotected sex but didn't infect their partner.
Yet.
They may even get away with it for weeks. Months.
Do you advocate people with HIV having unprotected sex?
Perhaps you could do a great public service,
Danny,
and collect stories from HIV infected people who had unprotected sex but didn't infect their partner.
Yet.
12
This is really not an unusual story.
EVERY cheating piece of shit gets away with it.
Right up to the moment that they don't.
EVERY cheating piece of shit gets away with it.
Right up to the moment that they don't.
13
The funny thing is (and I mean funny in a sad ironic way, not an amused way) that the monogamous feel hated on just as much as the non-monogamous do. I mean, a GOOD liberal would fuck around and encourage their mate to do the same. A GOOD liberal wouldn't feel threatened or jealous, and would be soooo much more evolved than that. I'm practically Michelle Bachman if I'm in a monogamous relationship where cheating would be considered a betrayal.
14
@9: I'm going to have to deduct fail points for the repeat. 4.5/10
@8: Hey ass-troll! Got any evidence of this happening that isn't completely selection biased?
Because divorcees are more likely to talk about this stuff, you select for divorcees to a certain extent when you gather stories about open-marriage. Same with marital sex stories. And divorcees tend to have bad things to say about their marriages.
@8: Hey ass-troll! Got any evidence of this happening that isn't completely selection biased?
Because divorcees are more likely to talk about this stuff, you select for divorcees to a certain extent when you gather stories about open-marriage. Same with marital sex stories. And divorcees tend to have bad things to say about their marriages.
17
Indeed, it's curious how people who probably have better things to do with their (monogamous) life will spend time telling those who are happily monogamish/open/poly how deluded they are and how they'll pay for it (preferably soon).
One would imagine by now that people don't have to feel threatened by other people living their lives differently. If something doesn't work for you, it's fine. If it works for someone else, it's fine, too. Not everybody has to be like you. Why does this simple fact have to be so offensive to so many people, that they cannot avoid angry reactions?
One would imagine by now that people don't have to feel threatened by other people living their lives differently. If something doesn't work for you, it's fine. If it works for someone else, it's fine, too. Not everybody has to be like you. Why does this simple fact have to be so offensive to so many people, that they cannot avoid angry reactions?
18
@8 you mean unlike the half of traditional hetero marriages that end in divorce?
F&L&S ain't hurting anybody, get on with painting your freaky wagon! En Fuego!
F&L&S ain't hurting anybody, get on with painting your freaky wagon! En Fuego!
19
For heaven's sake- I'm an out, married gay man in a monogamish relationship, but unlike Dan's more public personal life, few if any of my friends and relatives have a clue that we're not two monogamous, happily married queer men. I have no plans to correct their thinking....
No need to add to the stereotype of promiscuous gay men after all.
No need to add to the stereotype of promiscuous gay men after all.
20
Man, it must be such a fucking burden to be "respectable." My grandparents are about the only people who think I'm completely straight and monogamous. My friends sure don't and if my colleagues ever asked - and some of them have - I give 'em straight answers.
21
@15: I was going to point that out!
@1/5: They may be hos, but they're happily married hos. If they stuck to your monogamous ideals, their ho-ness would have caused yet another broken family. How exactly does that benefit anyone?
@1/5: They may be hos, but they're happily married hos. If they stuck to your monogamous ideals, their ho-ness would have caused yet another broken family. How exactly does that benefit anyone?
22
I honestly have no real desire to have sex with anyone other than my husband, so monogamy isn't oppressive for me. I don't judge people who feel differently though.
23
I feel kinda bad for the trolls who just lose their shit any time the SLLotD is about nonmonogamy*. Like, are you lonely and upset? Or did somebody cheat on you and you never got over it? Because that shit hurts. Or maybe you have a moralistic worldview and you are worried about it crumbling away if stuff like this goes unchallenged? Existential dread is super bogus. I mean, none of that is any excuse for being a spittle-flecked rageaholic lunatic, but I sympathize.
* - Except SRotU, whom I can only applaud for maximally entertaining trolling. The Stranger should hire him and put him in an office with Charles. There would be a trollingularity.
* - Except SRotU, whom I can only applaud for maximally entertaining trolling. The Stranger should hire him and put him in an office with Charles. There would be a trollingularity.
24
@13 charlie,
Why do being a Liberal and monogamous have to be mutually exclusive?
I don't know anyone "in real life" that is poly or open or anything besides serially monogamous, if they aren't strictly monogamous and in a LTR. That isn't a value judgement, it is merely a matter of chance. For myself, if I did know someone in a non monogamous relationship, where all parties were aware of what was going on outside the primary relationship, I would be fine with it. If hating lying and cheating makes me less socially progressive in other's eyes, then so be it.
Peace.
Why do being a Liberal and monogamous have to be mutually exclusive?
I don't know anyone "in real life" that is poly or open or anything besides serially monogamous, if they aren't strictly monogamous and in a LTR. That isn't a value judgement, it is merely a matter of chance. For myself, if I did know someone in a non monogamous relationship, where all parties were aware of what was going on outside the primary relationship, I would be fine with it. If hating lying and cheating makes me less socially progressive in other's eyes, then so be it.
Peace.
25
I wish I knew how many of the happily monogamous-identified couples that I know are telling the truth.
26
@23: I suspect that it's more like everything that goes on here is GAY AGENDA!!! and must be opposed, no matter how ineptly.
27
@Married in MA: I don't think anyone in this thread is saying that lying and cheating is a good thing. I'm probably more liberal than Dan and I DO have friends in successful open and poly relationships and still think lying and cheating is wrong because it is dishonest and disrespectful to your partner(s). There's a big difference between consensual non-monogamy and cheating. There are rare and extreme cases where discreet cheating is the lesser of two evils (e.g. staying with a terminally ill spouse as a caretaker while discreetly cheating vs. being Newt Gingrich) but I don't think it's ever a good thing.
My relationship is currently sexually monogamous (though not kink monogamous) but it didn't start that way and it may not remain that way either. If we do open it up it will be through mutual agreement, respect, and negotiation and that's a firm foundation for any type of relationship.
My relationship is currently sexually monogamous (though not kink monogamous) but it didn't start that way and it may not remain that way either. If we do open it up it will be through mutual agreement, respect, and negotiation and that's a firm foundation for any type of relationship.
28
225, try telling them that you are poly, and you may be surprised at who comes out of the woodwork.
29
Unfortunately, for every couple like this there are a dozen that completely fall apart when they open up the relationship. But hey, if it works, good on you.
30
@23 I second that emotion.
@24 "I don't know anyone "in real life" that is poly or open or anything besides serially monogamous, if they aren't strictly monogamous and in a LTR. That isn't a value judgement, it is merely a matter of chance. "
They just aren't telling you. Pretty much Dan's point in the request up above.
Why do you equate "hating, lying and cheating" with non-monogamous relationships?
@24 "I don't know anyone "in real life" that is poly or open or anything besides serially monogamous, if they aren't strictly monogamous and in a LTR. That isn't a value judgement, it is merely a matter of chance. "
They just aren't telling you. Pretty much Dan's point in the request up above.
Why do you equate "hating, lying and cheating" with non-monogamous relationships?
31
Married and polyamorous here. Though not closeted at all. We've been attending family events as a trio for years.
32
24, 27, & 30, I think you are all getting snarled up in response to charlie @13.
I think charlie was using sarcasm to imply that those who are non-monogamists pressure monogamists into 'fuck(ing) around encourag(ing) their mate to do the same.' Under some guise of being more liberal than thou, or some such. Charlie, do I have your opinion correct? Or am I misinterpreting you?
I think charlie was using sarcasm to imply that those who are non-monogamists pressure monogamists into 'fuck(ing) around encourag(ing) their mate to do the same.' Under some guise of being more liberal than thou, or some such. Charlie, do I have your opinion correct? Or am I misinterpreting you?
33
@30 --- oh, what a difference a comma makes. Anyway, @24 was trying to give a serious response to @13's trollish attempt to conflate nonmonogamy and cheating.
34
@29, the longest-lasting, most involved relationship of my life (to date) fell apart like the majestic collapse of a mountainside into a deadly avalanche when we opened things up.
Frankly, there is no accident nor happenstance in my life for which I am more grateful.
Some relationships should end, and if opening one up makes it implode, there's a fair chance that it was a good thing. The added intensity of nonmonogamy pushed what I now recognize to be a series of well-intentioned but dreadful mistakes to its inevitable, long-delayed conclusion while I was still in my 20s and before I made the mistake of a wedding. This freed me, after a recovery period, to be in the happy, well-adjusted nonmonogamous relationship that I now enjoy.
To this day I still struggle with the popular, terribly wrong but deeply ingrained belief that ending a relationship is ultimate failure. I don't want to end my current relationship but that feeling is so entrenched in my soul that I sometimes worry about whether I would want to end it if it ever happened that I should. Does that make sense? Anyway, cracking open a bad relationship and examining its workings may kill it, but if it's a fundamentally sound relationship, you should be able to tune it up and make it run even better by opening it up and getting in there and tuning things to your liking, and in my case, doing so let me see how things really stood and gave me the impetus to do something I ought to have done anyway.
Frankly, there is no accident nor happenstance in my life for which I am more grateful.
Some relationships should end, and if opening one up makes it implode, there's a fair chance that it was a good thing. The added intensity of nonmonogamy pushed what I now recognize to be a series of well-intentioned but dreadful mistakes to its inevitable, long-delayed conclusion while I was still in my 20s and before I made the mistake of a wedding. This freed me, after a recovery period, to be in the happy, well-adjusted nonmonogamous relationship that I now enjoy.
To this day I still struggle with the popular, terribly wrong but deeply ingrained belief that ending a relationship is ultimate failure. I don't want to end my current relationship but that feeling is so entrenched in my soul that I sometimes worry about whether I would want to end it if it ever happened that I should. Does that make sense? Anyway, cracking open a bad relationship and examining its workings may kill it, but if it's a fundamentally sound relationship, you should be able to tune it up and make it run even better by opening it up and getting in there and tuning things to your liking, and in my case, doing so let me see how things really stood and gave me the impetus to do something I ought to have done anyway.
37
I certainly don't have anything against monogamous couples, and I don't know any other non-monogamous people that do. I do think that some people remain monogamous out of fear or insecurity, even though, deep down they'd like to be non-monogamous. I was like that for years. But I don't support pressuring monogamous people or labeling them as inferior. If it works for you, if it makes you happy, so long it doesn't involve children or animals, have fun.
38
I suppose this puts me in the wrong camp, but I prefer these sorts of arrangements to remain largely private. For me it goes under the TMI heading. Do your thing, if you're happy and aren't making others unhappy, then I have no objections.
But I don't want to know the details. Perhaps that sort of attitude will mean such arrangements will remain socially unacceptable for longer than they should be, but excessive candor can be a rude imposition on others, just as excessively judgmental attitudes can be a rude imposition on others.
But I don't want to know the details. Perhaps that sort of attitude will mean such arrangements will remain socially unacceptable for longer than they should be, but excessive candor can be a rude imposition on others, just as excessively judgmental attitudes can be a rude imposition on others.
39
@38 Some nonmonogamous arrangements are mostly about sex, and like other aspects of one's sex life should be kept mostly private.
Other arrangements are really about being in a serious relationship with more than one person, and being open about that is important so that all three (or more) of you can be together for the holidays, etc.
I suspect some arrangements fall into the middle, where it's mostly about the sex, but partly about the relationship. And those ones require a judgement call, although I'd lean toward privacy.
Other arrangements are really about being in a serious relationship with more than one person, and being open about that is important so that all three (or more) of you can be together for the holidays, etc.
I suspect some arrangements fall into the middle, where it's mostly about the sex, but partly about the relationship. And those ones require a judgement call, although I'd lean toward privacy.
41
@38: it's a hard line to draw, to be sure. I don't need or want to hear the intimate details of my coworkers' lives, and I'm sure they feel similarly about me. On the other hand, most of them have met my wife, and if they see either of us out with our other lovers, I'd much rather them think "oh, right, they're the freaky ones" than "OMG I just discovered something that now I have to decide whether to tattle." Or frankly, on a smaller scale, if they ask me what I did over the weekend, I'd prefer not to have to lie.
Also, being out serves a political purpose. The success of the gay rights movement is, first and foremost, testimony to the power of refusing to be closeted: when people realize that "those people" are their friends, relatives and coworkers, it gets harder and harder to vote for ridiculous laws. (Not impossible, sadly, just harder.) Non-monogamous people don't intrinsically face the same kind of institutional discrimination and persecution that gay people do and did, but those of us with kid would strongly prefer that it not be regarded as prima facie justification for intervention by the local family court.
Also, being out serves a political purpose. The success of the gay rights movement is, first and foremost, testimony to the power of refusing to be closeted: when people realize that "those people" are their friends, relatives and coworkers, it gets harder and harder to vote for ridiculous laws. (Not impossible, sadly, just harder.) Non-monogamous people don't intrinsically face the same kind of institutional discrimination and persecution that gay people do and did, but those of us with kid would strongly prefer that it not be regarded as prima facie justification for intervention by the local family court.
42
@10: I'd heard about this, but thanks for the reminder. Just installed it. It's like boring old SeattleBlues never existed!
It'll be great for the careful-what-you-wish-for moment when unregistered comments are eliminated entirely and a certain ubiquitous troll crawls out from under its bridge.
It'll be great for the careful-what-you-wish-for moment when unregistered comments are eliminated entirely and a certain ubiquitous troll crawls out from under its bridge.
43
@13, it's not about being monogamous or not, it's about knowing what works for you. I'm every version of progressive you can think of, but I'm in a monogamous relationship. I briefly flirted with non-monogamy in a previous relationship, but it wasn't for me. Maybe in the future non-monogamy would be an option, but for now, I have a fantastic relationship (in all ways, including sexually) with just one man, and vice versa for him. Being a good "liberal" doesn't require you to subscribe to monogamy or non-monogamy or anything else, it requires understanding that everyone's life choices - including your *well-informed* choices - are acceptable.
The only thing that puts me on the flip side of the coin is that DH and I aren't legally married and have lived together since well before "marriage" was a thought. Can't tell you how much judgement I got for THAT, so I can't even imagine what people whose best life is even more non-conformist go through. But, even though other's lifestyles aren't for me (including people who don't consider the economic consequences of their marriage plans, important if you're successful in a high-cost city), I think they're free to do what they want, so long as they don't hurt anyone else in the process. Accepting others choices is liberal, bending your own personal preferences for some "norm" is self-torture. Understand the difference now?
The only thing that puts me on the flip side of the coin is that DH and I aren't legally married and have lived together since well before "marriage" was a thought. Can't tell you how much judgement I got for THAT, so I can't even imagine what people whose best life is even more non-conformist go through. But, even though other's lifestyles aren't for me (including people who don't consider the economic consequences of their marriage plans, important if you're successful in a high-cost city), I think they're free to do what they want, so long as they don't hurt anyone else in the process. Accepting others choices is liberal, bending your own personal preferences for some "norm" is self-torture. Understand the difference now?
44
I just finished reading four different academic studies conducted from 1976 - 2005 that found no difference in the rate of divorce between open marriages and exclusive marriages. Also, in all of the studies the participants who had open marriages reported a greater sense of honesty, acceptance, and individuality than the exclusive couples. One study in particular, intitiated in 1986, did a follow up nearly ten years later. Still no difference in the rates of divorce between the two groups, which included 42 couples in the 'open' category, and 49 in the 'exclusive' category. You are intitled to believe what you want - no one can stop you - but rather than propagating an unsupported idea, perhaps detractors of non-monogamous relationships should do a little homework first. I'm just saying . . .
46
What Danny wants to gloss over is that Cheaters are not just cheating on each other when they commit adultery.
They are cheating against the institution of Marriage.
Which is why even if their spouse gives 'permission' it is still Cheating.
(of course, most of the smug self-congratulating POS cheaters like LW eventually end up on the busted relationship trash heap eventually...)
This is why Danny and his HomoLiberal Degenerate fellow travelers want to pervert marriage- not just to allow same sex couplings but to remove the stigma from adultery.
They are cheating against the institution of Marriage.
Which is why even if their spouse gives 'permission' it is still Cheating.
(of course, most of the smug self-congratulating POS cheaters like LW eventually end up on the busted relationship trash heap eventually...)
This is why Danny and his HomoLiberal Degenerate fellow travelers want to pervert marriage- not just to allow same sex couplings but to remove the stigma from adultery.
47
@46: 'Scuse you.
When two people take marital vows, they make those vows to each other, not to a third party. Marriage is a contract between two people, and they decide what is in it. There is no overarching "institution of Marriage" by which everyone must live by; the institution of marriage is what married people make it to be.
And as the good asteracean pointed out in #44, consensual opening of marriages does NOT lead to higher rates of divorce.
When two people take marital vows, they make those vows to each other, not to a third party. Marriage is a contract between two people, and they decide what is in it. There is no overarching "institution of Marriage" by which everyone must live by; the institution of marriage is what married people make it to be.
And as the good asteracean pointed out in #44, consensual opening of marriages does NOT lead to higher rates of divorce.
49
Is FALAS implying that all monogamous people only feel that way because of social convention? In order to truthfully say that you accept that other people live their lives differently you need to allow them the honesty of their reasons for doing so. Otherwise you are just being condescending.
50
47
Well then.
Homosexuals can "marry" any time they want and stare into each others' eyes and make vows and keep the rest of us out of it....
Right?
Wrong.
Marriage is a social institution.
Society decides what the rules are.
How to get in; how to get out.
Society dictates it all.
And @44 didn't point out anything;
tidbits plucked from ones ass don't count.
sources, please.
Well then.
Homosexuals can "marry" any time they want and stare into each others' eyes and make vows and keep the rest of us out of it....
Right?
Wrong.
Marriage is a social institution.
Society decides what the rules are.
How to get in; how to get out.
Society dictates it all.
And @44 didn't point out anything;
tidbits plucked from ones ass don't count.
sources, please.
51
I have no problem with not-strictly-monogamous relationships. (For one thing, WHY on earth would I want to insert myself into judging the choices of consenting adults?) Nor do I feel pressured to become part of one. And it ain't ever gonna happen. I've actually been in relationships with men I would have trusted enough to open the relationship up. However, the idea would have been distinctly unappealing to us. Ya know why? Well, we're all lazy, for one thing.
Honestly, I don't really see how people have the time to juggle an extra lover on top of all the other demands of life. I'm single now and just dating puts pressure on the other activities in my life. I have a job with long hours, a lot of friends and family, a raft of hobbies I enjoy (and need for my sanity), two dogs who deserve all of the attention I can give them and a household to maintain. My life is very full. Adding in a relationship with one primary person would crunch me even further. Adding in both primary and secondary partners would be stressful to say the least. And I couldn't imagine it if kids were in the picture - that would just be an overload of epic proportions.
So I'm not sure whether I'm just naturally inclined toward monogamy or my laziness/desire for simplicity is so ingrained that it seems utterly repellant to me personally. I like sex a lot (it's been called my drug of choice), but not so much that I'm willing to go through the hassle of finding and maintaining a relationship with more than one person. Besides, all my previous partners have been more than willing to provide orgasms even when they weren't in the mood themselves.
But hey, if someone else wants to go for it, my blessing upon them. But I suspect that monogamy is the standard for many people if only because it's easier.
More...
Honestly, I don't really see how people have the time to juggle an extra lover on top of all the other demands of life. I'm single now and just dating puts pressure on the other activities in my life. I have a job with long hours, a lot of friends and family, a raft of hobbies I enjoy (and need for my sanity), two dogs who deserve all of the attention I can give them and a household to maintain. My life is very full. Adding in a relationship with one primary person would crunch me even further. Adding in both primary and secondary partners would be stressful to say the least. And I couldn't imagine it if kids were in the picture - that would just be an overload of epic proportions.
So I'm not sure whether I'm just naturally inclined toward monogamy or my laziness/desire for simplicity is so ingrained that it seems utterly repellant to me personally. I like sex a lot (it's been called my drug of choice), but not so much that I'm willing to go through the hassle of finding and maintaining a relationship with more than one person. Besides, all my previous partners have been more than willing to provide orgasms even when they weren't in the mood themselves.
But hey, if someone else wants to go for it, my blessing upon them. But I suspect that monogamy is the standard for many people if only because it's easier.
52
Nobody wants to know about your sex life. I'm glad it works for you, I think it would be difficult to make it work so I'm impressed. But nobody wants to know about it.
I never assume that every couple I meet isn't sleeping with other people, or even sleeping with each other. I thing most grownups know how often sex happens outside of marriage, so you're not as in-the-closet as you think you are.
We just don't want to know about it.
I never assume that every couple I meet isn't sleeping with other people, or even sleeping with each other. I thing most grownups know how often sex happens outside of marriage, so you're not as in-the-closet as you think you are.
We just don't want to know about it.
53
Whenever someone sends in a letter saying they're religious, monogamous, and super happy with awesome sex lives, at least one person pipes up and doubts the authenticity of the letter.
Just sayin'.
Just sayin'.
54
Ok, you asked for it so here it is.
Study #1 "An Exploritory Study of Seventeen Sexually Open Marriages" in The Journal of Sex Research Vol. 12 No. 3 pp 206-219 August 1976. by Jacquilyn J. Knapp
Study #2 "The Dimensionality of Marital Role Satisfaction" in The Journal of Marriage and Family Vol. 42 No. 1 pp 45-55 Feb. 1980 by Mary Lou Larson McNamara and Howard M. Bahr
Study #3 "Outcomes of Sexually Open Marriages" in The Journal of Sex Research Vol. 22 No. 3 pp 311-319 August 1986 by ArlineM Rubin and James R. Adams
Study #4 "This is my Partner, and This is my . . . Partner's partner: Constructing a Polyamorous Identity in a Monogomous World" in the Journal of Constructivist Psychology Issue 18 pp 75-88 2005 by Meg Barker
Read them all if you dare . . . lol - just kidding, but word to the wise here - these are psychological studies so they aren't written for entertainment.
Study #1 "An Exploritory Study of Seventeen Sexually Open Marriages" in The Journal of Sex Research Vol. 12 No. 3 pp 206-219 August 1976. by Jacquilyn J. Knapp
Study #2 "The Dimensionality of Marital Role Satisfaction" in The Journal of Marriage and Family Vol. 42 No. 1 pp 45-55 Feb. 1980 by Mary Lou Larson McNamara and Howard M. Bahr
Study #3 "Outcomes of Sexually Open Marriages" in The Journal of Sex Research Vol. 22 No. 3 pp 311-319 August 1986 by ArlineM Rubin and James R. Adams
Study #4 "This is my Partner, and This is my . . . Partner's partner: Constructing a Polyamorous Identity in a Monogomous World" in the Journal of Constructivist Psychology Issue 18 pp 75-88 2005 by Meg Barker
Read them all if you dare . . . lol - just kidding, but word to the wise here - these are psychological studies so they aren't written for entertainment.
55
@50, when the nation finally grows up and legally recognizes same-sex marriages - and even you can't really deny things seem headed that way - are you still going to be singing that "society decides what the rules are" tune or are you going to bleat about how degenerate we've all become?
@52, it really depends on your friends. Clearly you don't want to know about your friends' sex lives, and that's fine. A lot of the people I hang out with rather enjoy being somewhat open about how things are going with us.
@52, it really depends on your friends. Clearly you don't want to know about your friends' sex lives, and that's fine. A lot of the people I hang out with rather enjoy being somewhat open about how things are going with us.
56
@51 It's easier to be monogamous until it isn't anymore. I've seen many people hit a period in their 40s where they are established in their career & family life, and suddenly they fall into an existential crisis. "Is this all there is? / Is my life going to be the same for the next 30-40 years? / Am I still attractive to other people? / What do I want to do with my life while I still can?" In that midlife crisis, one's priorities can shift radically. Many marriages break up at that point, but people who stay married still have to find satisfactory answers to those questions -- and some fraction of the time that leads to non-monogamy of one kind or another.
57
I've never been big on monogamy. I think it's corny. But I like the idea of keeping it on the downlow. It's more fun that way. Plus, what could be more boring than listening to someone drone on about all their "lovers"? The only person in contemporary times who could pull that off was Joan Collins.
Seriously, as a former employee the Four Seasons, I have no delusions about how monogamous most of the "pillars of our society" are. In fact, about fifteen years ago, there was a big upheaval in Seattle "High Society", where a bunch of them got divorced and almost immediately remarried people who were the former spouses of people in the same crowd. It was all very confusing, and made remembering who was now married to who absolute hell.
Seriously, as a former employee the Four Seasons, I have no delusions about how monogamous most of the "pillars of our society" are. In fact, about fifteen years ago, there was a big upheaval in Seattle "High Society", where a bunch of them got divorced and almost immediately remarried people who were the former spouses of people in the same crowd. It was all very confusing, and made remembering who was now married to who absolute hell.
58
@54 -- Thanks much! I've read my fair share of academic journals, so I'm not worried about the lack of entertainment value. I find the science fascinating.
59
In my experience non-monogamy works well enough for gay men and not so well for anybody else. On the other hand reading EricaP's Slog comments has given me a different perspective on such things. I think that sharing the details of your sex life, when done in the appropriate context, is a good thing to do.
60
OK, I've read all the comments. What I can glean from this is:
Lots of people are threatened by things they don't understand / don't agree with.
Some people are not monogamous so don't agree with monogamy
Some people are monogamous so don't agree with non monogamy
But most of all, the majority of people think their position is the right one and if you don't agree with their view you can fuck of and die.
My view is that we basically suck as a race and no matter how much we "advance" we are still a primitive tribal "us against them" culture. Still the internet is a fun place to argue! Oh and look at porn:)
Lots of people are threatened by things they don't understand / don't agree with.
Some people are not monogamous so don't agree with monogamy
Some people are monogamous so don't agree with non monogamy
But most of all, the majority of people think their position is the right one and if you don't agree with their view you can fuck of and die.
My view is that we basically suck as a race and no matter how much we "advance" we are still a primitive tribal "us against them" culture. Still the internet is a fun place to argue! Oh and look at porn:)
61
@50. actually polls indicate that the majority of Americans support same sex marriage. Your argument that society dictates these things is incredibly naive, are you a grownup?
Society doesn't dictate anything, There is no collective society, it's a myth. Laws are decided by the rich and powerful. They make laws that help them retain their power and wealth. Issues like same sex marriage and the division it causes are great for them. It keeps us focused on shit that distracts us from realizing that they are laughing all the way to the bank at our expense.
Society doesn't dictate anything, There is no collective society, it's a myth. Laws are decided by the rich and powerful. They make laws that help them retain their power and wealth. Issues like same sex marriage and the division it causes are great for them. It keeps us focused on shit that distracts us from realizing that they are laughing all the way to the bank at our expense.
62
@57 - exactly. I have also worked in hotels, bartended, etc. I would safely assume most couples are non-monogamous, whether they admit it or not. Most outside activity is done on the down-low.
Which leads to my (largely internal) debate about the benefits of discretion and acceptance of occasional flings v. open non-monogamy. Rather than carve open the potential wounds of jealousy, insecurities, and openly watching your partner get ready to go on a date with another, isn't it better to maintain the myth of the relationship and just have the occasional "monogamish" fling on the side? Yes, Yes, CPOS territory. Better than the alternative of heaping unwanted insecurity on your partner?
Perhaps some tolerance to don't ask don't tell plus discretion and safety can be navigated as well or better than being open?
Which leads to my (largely internal) debate about the benefits of discretion and acceptance of occasional flings v. open non-monogamy. Rather than carve open the potential wounds of jealousy, insecurities, and openly watching your partner get ready to go on a date with another, isn't it better to maintain the myth of the relationship and just have the occasional "monogamish" fling on the side? Yes, Yes, CPOS territory. Better than the alternative of heaping unwanted insecurity on your partner?
Perhaps some tolerance to don't ask don't tell plus discretion and safety can be navigated as well or better than being open?
63
@62 - I guess you have to know your partner. Some people are just completely set against it. But if one's partner seems open-minded about sex, can't one at least raise the topic of non-monogamy in other people's marriages (celebrities, say), and see whether they are rabidly against it or can imagine some circumstances where it might be okay? Another approach is to admit to fantasizing about other people ("occasionally, and just during masturbation.") See how that conversation goes. Some people prefer DADT + discretion + condoms; some people prefer knowledge + discretion + condoms. (And of course some people don't like any of that.) Tim, is this a real issue in your life? If so, have you tried having your partner read some of these Slog threads? (Assuming 'Tim Horton' is an alias, of course :-)
64
Dan is encouraging people to be all immoral and such, just like that dirty ho-bag Eleanor Roosevelt.
[Sarcasm]
[Sarcasm]
65
@63 - My partner and I are both in the "realist" camp. Saying that we fantasize about others, or admitting we have a desire to have sex with others would be as surprising as saying we like pizza. Who doesn't? I love what @57 said - Monogamy is corny.
The concerns I have with open non-monogamy: some things can never been unseen, unsaid, un-experienced. Is it insecurity? Sure, but when you have kids the stakes of keeping the family unit preserved are very high.
I will throw the question back to you. Are you in a better spot emotionally since Mr. P demanded an open relationship? Would life be easier, less emotionally taxing, if he got his outside needs met, safely, discreetly, and very occasionally? And you felt you could do the same? Do you feel your family unit is stronger than before?
The concerns I have with open non-monogamy: some things can never been unseen, unsaid, un-experienced. Is it insecurity? Sure, but when you have kids the stakes of keeping the family unit preserved are very high.
I will throw the question back to you. Are you in a better spot emotionally since Mr. P demanded an open relationship? Would life be easier, less emotionally taxing, if he got his outside needs met, safely, discreetly, and very occasionally? And you felt you could do the same? Do you feel your family unit is stronger than before?
66
@50: "Marriage is a social institution. Society decides what the rules are."
Then why do you cry like a little titty-baby whenever you lose, one by one the ability to determine the rights of others?
Oh right, it's because you have no clue what you're talking about.
Then why do you cry like a little titty-baby whenever you lose, one by one the ability to determine the rights of others?
Oh right, it's because you have no clue what you're talking about.
67
@65 Yes, no, no, yes. We have much more frequent, much hotter sex now. We tell each other all about what worked with other people, what that made us think we might want to try, what some sweetie liked about our body, how we flirted with someone at a bar... It would not be emotionally easier if we let our imaginations run wild thinking about how great the outside lovers are. In fact, the outside lovers are all flawed humans just like us, and it's emotionally comforting to hear about their insecurities as well as their skills in bed. The state of our family unit is strong :-)
68
@65(Mr Horton) -- sorry for jumping into your conversation with MrsP, but I can't resist saying: insecurity is insecurity is insecurity, we always have to deal with that in relationships. The longer people live together, the better they get a feeling for the things the other one is insecure about (and it's not only sex), and how one should deal with the insecurity. We're all different after all.
What I've noticed in my life is that if you're in an LTR for a while, there's no way you can avoid some consequences of your (and your partner's) insecurities. There is no behavior, no DADT, nothing, that will make it sure that insecurities are never a problem between you.
Which is why I think it's better to get things out in the open at the first (convenient, non-pushy) opportunity. If you don't, they'll eventually come up, and in a less manageable, less controllable way (e.g., you'll have your mid-40's existential crisis and start an affair with your secretary, your wife finds out, and there's hell, with you playing CPOS; or then maybe your wife will).
What I've noticed in my life is that if you're in an LTR for a while, there's no way you can avoid some consequences of your (and your partner's) insecurities. There is no behavior, no DADT, nothing, that will make it sure that insecurities are never a problem between you.
Which is why I think it's better to get things out in the open at the first (convenient, non-pushy) opportunity. If you don't, they'll eventually come up, and in a less manageable, less controllable way (e.g., you'll have your mid-40's existential crisis and start an affair with your secretary, your wife finds out, and there's hell, with you playing CPOS; or then maybe your wife will).
69
@68 Also, when things are on the down-low, the outside sweeties are more prone to think that you are actually leaving your spouse for them. This has pros and cons: It turns out that, if you are a guy, this does improve your chances of getting laid. (More women will sleep with cheaters than with poly men.) But it leads to drama, later, when you have to persuade your former sweetie not to rat you out.
70
@ 67 - I am very happy to hear you are in a good spot.
@68 - Thanks for the excellent insight, what you say is probably true re insecurities. So let's say you know your partner is going to feel insecure about outside sexual contact. What if their response is: "I know you have the urge to sleep with others, as do I, but the thought of you with someone else makes me sick."
Using very black and white thinking, it seems there are two types of people here: those couples that enjoy and get off on outside activity. See EricaP and her confession that the sex is hotter and more frequent. And then there are those who don't. I have no idea how much you can control natural reactions, emotions, insecurities. I assume, to some degree, these are as ingrained as sexuality, ie you can't change being gay simply because you want to.
To come full circle on this, and Dan's message of more honesty: Yes, lifetime monogamy is virtually non-existent. How many couples who say "I do" in their 20s and 30s refrain from any outside sexual contact? But the flip side - Dan's suggestion for more open-nes: How many couples successfully open up and remain happily ever after vs "the old days" of DADT, boys will be boys, girls will be girls, but keep it clean, out of town, and don't disrespect the family.
I don't have answers, just questions.
@68 - Thanks for the excellent insight, what you say is probably true re insecurities. So let's say you know your partner is going to feel insecure about outside sexual contact. What if their response is: "I know you have the urge to sleep with others, as do I, but the thought of you with someone else makes me sick."
Using very black and white thinking, it seems there are two types of people here: those couples that enjoy and get off on outside activity. See EricaP and her confession that the sex is hotter and more frequent. And then there are those who don't. I have no idea how much you can control natural reactions, emotions, insecurities. I assume, to some degree, these are as ingrained as sexuality, ie you can't change being gay simply because you want to.
To come full circle on this, and Dan's message of more honesty: Yes, lifetime monogamy is virtually non-existent. How many couples who say "I do" in their 20s and 30s refrain from any outside sexual contact? But the flip side - Dan's suggestion for more open-nes: How many couples successfully open up and remain happily ever after vs "the old days" of DADT, boys will be boys, girls will be girls, but keep it clean, out of town, and don't disrespect the family.
I don't have answers, just questions.
71
@70 - I think those physical reactions are more changeable than you think. It was hard for me at first but it got easier, and then it got fun. (Like giving blow jobs!) Have you and your wife read Ethical Slut & Opening Up?
72
To echo a bit of what Tim said @70, some folks appear to be wired for monogamy. To them it's not a matter of insecurity or societal expectations it's just that for them non-monogamy does not compute.
73
Engaged and not monogamous. My fiance and I have always been open. Heck we had a threesome with his best-woman and more than once have participated in group sex events with our friends. We are always honest and open with each other about what we are doing and with who. We come first to each other and everything else is secondary.
I feel secure in this relationship in a way I have never felt before with any other. Noone outside of a certian group of our friends know about this aspect of our life. My conservative family would die if they knew. My other friends and coworkers would be shocked. His family wouldn't understand. Basically we keep it private because the damange it could do to our reputations in this region and our relationships with friends and family. I wish it ididn't haveto be that way.
So for those of you who claim to not know anyone living like this I tell you that you are wrong. your sister or your receptionist at work or the guy who leads your kids cub scout group, they could all be living in monogamish relationships.
I feel secure in this relationship in a way I have never felt before with any other. Noone outside of a certian group of our friends know about this aspect of our life. My conservative family would die if they knew. My other friends and coworkers would be shocked. His family wouldn't understand. Basically we keep it private because the damange it could do to our reputations in this region and our relationships with friends and family. I wish it ididn't haveto be that way.
So for those of you who claim to not know anyone living like this I tell you that you are wrong. your sister or your receptionist at work or the guy who leads your kids cub scout group, they could all be living in monogamish relationships.
74
@70(Mr Horton), the topic reminds me of the Christian wisdom of Niebuhr's famous serenity prayer: "God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference."
As Mr.J@72 points out, some people just can't do non-monogamy. (Call them people who -- in EricaP's sequence of 'at first it's hard, then it gets easier, then it gets fun' -- never go beyond stage 1, if you want.) Maybe the partner who says "it makes me sick to imagine you with other people" is one of those, maybe s/he isn't.
Can you ever find out? Only if you talk and convince him/her to try. What if she won't be convinced? Then there's nothing you can do. What if s/he is convinced but then it doesn't work? Then it doesn't.
You can try. Read books (I've read one of the two EricaP recommended -- The Ethical Slut -- and I agree it's a good book), preferably together. Talk it through. Be honest about your needs and feelings; don't hide anything; give reassurance. But if it doesn't work, then it doesn't work, and then it's up to you to decide if this is enough for you to want out of the relationship or not.
As Mr.J@72 points out, some people just can't do non-monogamy. (Call them people who -- in EricaP's sequence of 'at first it's hard, then it gets easier, then it gets fun' -- never go beyond stage 1, if you want.) Maybe the partner who says "it makes me sick to imagine you with other people" is one of those, maybe s/he isn't.
Can you ever find out? Only if you talk and convince him/her to try. What if she won't be convinced? Then there's nothing you can do. What if s/he is convinced but then it doesn't work? Then it doesn't.
You can try. Read books (I've read one of the two EricaP recommended -- The Ethical Slut -- and I agree it's a good book), preferably together. Talk it through. Be honest about your needs and feelings; don't hide anything; give reassurance. But if it doesn't work, then it doesn't work, and then it's up to you to decide if this is enough for you to want out of the relationship or not.
75
@69(EricaP), your comment brings to mind a topic that had been mentioned, I think, in a couple of letters to Dan before: apparently, in open marriages, it is usually easier for the woman to get outside sweeties (nice word, by the way) than for the man -- leading to a few guys feeling stupid because they were the ones who suggested opening up and now it's the wife/girlfriend who gets most of the outside action. Has this happend to you and MrP, and, if so, was it ever a problem?
I'd extend this question to all non-monogamous couples in this thread (@73 above, etc.): do different rates of success between hubby and wifey with outside lovers ever cause stress/tensions/problems?
I'd extend this question to all non-monogamous couples in this thread (@73 above, etc.): do different rates of success between hubby and wifey with outside lovers ever cause stress/tensions/problems?
76
Ms Erica @67 - [In fact, the outside lovers are all flawed humans just like us, and it's emotionally comforting to hear about their insecurities as well as their skills in bed. The state of our family unit is strong :-)]
Well, good for you, and maybe even good for Mr Erica, but I hope it's acceptable to your outside partners, or that at least they're okay with running the risk and content not to know about it.
I bring this up because I always knew I could have been convinced or perhaps even pushed into a partner's having outside sex. Like Franca Sheerwater in The Message to the Planet, I'd even have agreed to be "demoted" from primary to secondary (and without Franca's internal rage over it). But I'd have had a terrible time swallowing being dissected by the primary couple in such a fashion, and being used as a tool (not that I'm saying you [or even Mr Erica - who, not having presented his own case, has not had the opportunity to earn any trust or respect] do that; I just hope that none of your outside partners have that perception) in such a manner to improve the strength of their family unit would be the sort of thing likely to make me suicidal.
I hope that did not come across as terribly critical. I'm in an awful mood just now, having encountered about 77 examples of needless heterocentricity from various sources, mostly the television, this afternoon, which is the sort of thing that does make me suicidal. I shall presently go grocery shopping in a mood of not minding much if a drunk driver should crash into me. I suppose the mood will lift in time; I might get really lucky and find something that's almost never in stock.
Well, good for you, and maybe even good for Mr Erica, but I hope it's acceptable to your outside partners, or that at least they're okay with running the risk and content not to know about it.
I bring this up because I always knew I could have been convinced or perhaps even pushed into a partner's having outside sex. Like Franca Sheerwater in The Message to the Planet, I'd even have agreed to be "demoted" from primary to secondary (and without Franca's internal rage over it). But I'd have had a terrible time swallowing being dissected by the primary couple in such a fashion, and being used as a tool (not that I'm saying you [or even Mr Erica - who, not having presented his own case, has not had the opportunity to earn any trust or respect] do that; I just hope that none of your outside partners have that perception) in such a manner to improve the strength of their family unit would be the sort of thing likely to make me suicidal.
I hope that did not come across as terribly critical. I'm in an awful mood just now, having encountered about 77 examples of needless heterocentricity from various sources, mostly the television, this afternoon, which is the sort of thing that does make me suicidal. I shall presently go grocery shopping in a mood of not minding much if a drunk driver should crash into me. I suppose the mood will lift in time; I might get really lucky and find something that's almost never in stock.
77
@50: Marriage is a contract, a LEGAL contract. Most states in this country do not allow two people of the same gender to make such a contract. Why not let them make that contract to each other and have them leave the rest of us out of it?
@61: Good shot, Soap. MacMillan would be impressed.
@61: Good shot, Soap. MacMillan would be impressed.
78
@75 - "do different rates of success between hubby and wifey with outside lovers ever cause stress/tensions/problems?"
That's a big HELL YES on that one. That's actually harder to adjust to at first than the whole idea of your partner having sex/being in love with someone else, at least it was for us. One of the problems I see repeated over and over again is: hubby decides he'd like to have more nooky. He persuades wife to try nonmonogamy. They attend one poly or swing event, or start profiles on okcupid or whatever. Wife is swarmed by potential partners. Hubby hears lonely crickets. Wife gets plethora of dates, attention, sleepovers. Hubby is home alone. Hubby decides nonmonogamy is not for him, but wife decides she doesn't want to give it up. I've seen this break up marriages.
It's best to be prepared for the eventuality that one partner will have a decided disparity. What we did, when we first became part of the poly community and I was like the Only Bait In Town (just because I was new) was for me to back off a little, and only date one person, sporadically, until my husband felt more comfortable with his place among the community and until he was getting more interest among the women in the community. That allowed him time to make friends with women who were interested (they're quite often slower to the starting line, at least among the poly community, than men are), and it allowed time for me to not be the New Fad. It is definitely easier for most women to find new partners than it is for men.
Erica alluded to one of the problems earlier: a lot of women, especially middle-aged women, are more comfortable sleeping with a man who's cheating than one who is openly nonmonogamous. We've gotten around that problem by basically never becoming involved with anyone who doesn't already identify as poly AND in a committed relationship. You avoid so much unnecessary drama when you stay away from the people who are looking to poach.
And one of the posts above mentioned the insecurity and discomfort of watching a partner get ready for a date. That does happen, sure, but there's also its converse - compersion (ugly word, beautiful feeling): the joy of watching your partner prepare for a much-anticipated date. I love seeing him happy and feeling wanted and validated, and he feels the same for me.
More...
That's a big HELL YES on that one. That's actually harder to adjust to at first than the whole idea of your partner having sex/being in love with someone else, at least it was for us. One of the problems I see repeated over and over again is: hubby decides he'd like to have more nooky. He persuades wife to try nonmonogamy. They attend one poly or swing event, or start profiles on okcupid or whatever. Wife is swarmed by potential partners. Hubby hears lonely crickets. Wife gets plethora of dates, attention, sleepovers. Hubby is home alone. Hubby decides nonmonogamy is not for him, but wife decides she doesn't want to give it up. I've seen this break up marriages.
It's best to be prepared for the eventuality that one partner will have a decided disparity. What we did, when we first became part of the poly community and I was like the Only Bait In Town (just because I was new) was for me to back off a little, and only date one person, sporadically, until my husband felt more comfortable with his place among the community and until he was getting more interest among the women in the community. That allowed him time to make friends with women who were interested (they're quite often slower to the starting line, at least among the poly community, than men are), and it allowed time for me to not be the New Fad. It is definitely easier for most women to find new partners than it is for men.
Erica alluded to one of the problems earlier: a lot of women, especially middle-aged women, are more comfortable sleeping with a man who's cheating than one who is openly nonmonogamous. We've gotten around that problem by basically never becoming involved with anyone who doesn't already identify as poly AND in a committed relationship. You avoid so much unnecessary drama when you stay away from the people who are looking to poach.
And one of the posts above mentioned the insecurity and discomfort of watching a partner get ready for a date. That does happen, sure, but there's also its converse - compersion (ugly word, beautiful feeling): the joy of watching your partner prepare for a much-anticipated date. I love seeing him happy and feeling wanted and validated, and he feels the same for me.
79
@75 - yes, it is easier for me to find willing sex partners, but not easier to find people with whom I connect well. Now that I'm looking for quality over quantity, my rate is similar to his. (Where quality refers to a good match for me personally - not that these people are higher quality per se than others I reject.)
@76 That's an excellent question. A lot of poly people have policies against talking about one person with anyone else. In fact, a large part of why Mr. P and his summer girlfriend broke up was probably because he was giving me what she felt was too much information about their relationship (also she wanted more time than he could give her). We operate on the explicit principle of "married people tell each other everything." We would probably revise our policy for the right people, but so far that hasn't happened.
@76 That's an excellent question. A lot of poly people have policies against talking about one person with anyone else. In fact, a large part of why Mr. P and his summer girlfriend broke up was probably because he was giving me what she felt was too much information about their relationship (also she wanted more time than he could give her). We operate on the explicit principle of "married people tell each other everything." We would probably revise our policy for the right people, but so far that hasn't happened.
80
@78 - It also helps in dealing with the usual disparity if the husband gets aroused by hearing about his wife's adventures with other men (ie, his interest goes beyond compersion, which you explained well).
81
Dishonesty denies your partner the opportunity to outgrow their insecurity. Not everyone wants to be nonmonogamous, not everyone is able to be nonmonogamous, and there's nothing wrong with that. Every relationship has to find its own natural groove, and sometimes that groove changes over time, sometimes it doesn't, and sometimes it just runs its course. But if you're drawn to outside sexual relationships and you don't share this with your partner, you're making decisions that can have a drastic effect on them without their consent, and you're essentially giving up on them and their ability to handle a deeper relationship - or perhaps on your own ability to do so. I think it's better to be honest, and if one of you wants nonmonogamy and the other really doesn't, then it's better to give them their freedom to find what they really want than to deceive them and deprive them on both counts.
82
@76, maybe it's not much, but I'd miss the hell out of you if you weren't around. Please don't get in a car wreck.
84
@52 and others
Let's turn it around, what if your place of work had an xmas party but, it was restricted to only employees because "no one wants to know about that ONE person you are sleeping with" if I happen to be deeply commited and in love with more than one person I should be able to share that the same as if it is only one person
-Poly and Proud love is love regardless of number
Let's turn it around, what if your place of work had an xmas party but, it was restricted to only employees because "no one wants to know about that ONE person you are sleeping with" if I happen to be deeply commited and in love with more than one person I should be able to share that the same as if it is only one person
-Poly and Proud love is love regardless of number
85
@30,
I was, poorly, trying to state that as long as there is honesty and support, I don't have a problem with poly relationships. I just can't stand lying and cheating, as in the case of my father who always held himself a paragon, and drowned us in the virtue of being of our family. In fact, reasons for me to support poly runs in the family; one of my ancestors was the result of 2 brothers sharing one woman.
Peace.
I was, poorly, trying to state that as long as there is honesty and support, I don't have a problem with poly relationships. I just can't stand lying and cheating, as in the case of my father who always held himself a paragon, and drowned us in the virtue of being of our family. In fact, reasons for me to support poly runs in the family; one of my ancestors was the result of 2 brothers sharing one woman.
Peace.
86
Ms Erica - Well, that makes a good deal of sense. Just another point of potential (in)compatibility, I suppose.
I was wondering while I was out how different the dynamics are between straight-open and gay-open, with the latter containing a larger number of plausible or probable pairings and with some different types of cross-jealousies. But if I worry about it too much I'll get a headache.
I was wondering while I was out how different the dynamics are between straight-open and gay-open, with the latter containing a larger number of plausible or probable pairings and with some different types of cross-jealousies. But if I worry about it too much I'll get a headache.
87
@84 has a good point. It's pretty bullshit to expect that other people will lie about their lives for your comfort.
88
@86 Male-gay-open = no women involved, so they probably have more emphasis on quantity of hot sex, and less on conversation and relationships. Just a guess.
89
(@86, apologies if my sexism @88 pushed the same buttons which have been getting pushed in you all day.)
90
@Mr Ven, I'll add my voice to 82's (clashfan's) above in saying I'd hate it if you got in a car wreck. I hope you've found that usually-not-in-stock item that had the power to brighten your day? :-)
@Geni, EricaP, what you describe is indeed the assumption one would make based on the (stereotypes? experiences?) one hears about... I find it interesting, because it seems that a man with a cuckold fetish could get his itch stratched by simply suggesting to open up the relationship and then relax while his efforts to find a partner go unfulfilled. Those lonely crickets can play wonderful music. :-)
Geni, I hadn't thought about the drama aspect, and I can see why you have a poly-people-in-relationships-only policy when looking for potential lovers. Makes a lot of sense. I'm glad you found this solution. (I hope you and your hubby didn't have too many conflicts in the phase before this solution was reached. If he was the one that proposed opening up the marriage and then remained nookiless, I imagine he must have felt pretty stupid and angry with himself for a while, which is not a good place to be in.)
@Geni, EricaP, what you describe is indeed the assumption one would make based on the (stereotypes? experiences?) one hears about... I find it interesting, because it seems that a man with a cuckold fetish could get his itch stratched by simply suggesting to open up the relationship and then relax while his efforts to find a partner go unfulfilled. Those lonely crickets can play wonderful music. :-)
Geni, I hadn't thought about the drama aspect, and I can see why you have a poly-people-in-relationships-only policy when looking for potential lovers. Makes a lot of sense. I'm glad you found this solution. (I hope you and your hubby didn't have too many conflicts in the phase before this solution was reached. If he was the one that proposed opening up the marriage and then remained nookiless, I imagine he must have felt pretty stupid and angry with himself for a while, which is not a good place to be in.)
91
Theres an interesting article over on Good Men Project about this very thing. http://goodmenproject.com/featured-conte…
92
Another poly person here. I have two relationships, one has been going only 2 years, the other 21 years. Having been raised in a multicultural society, and therefore knowing about polygamous families from childhood, I've always been open to poly.
My relationship/s became actively poly about 16 years ago; teething difficulties, of course, but nothing insurmountable or genuinely threatening to my original relationship. I should add that there have not been active poly relationships for the whole of that 16 years: in total, about 8 years worth of active poly relationships, but spread out.
For me, poly has always been about the relationship more than the sex. I have a chronic illness of 20 years' standing which seriously depresses my libido. So (for me, at least) being / living poly is about a whole lot more than oodles of sex which I often don't have the energy for, anyway.
In my experience (which of course will not be the same as that of others) the most important thing in sustaining happy poly relationships is emotional security. When you are absolutely secure in a relationship, when you feel cared-for and nurtured, you don't mind your partner/s being with other people as well as you, and are free to delight in their happiness with other people. That total confidence is only built when your partner is with other people but keeps on coming back to you anyway. It is much easier if the 'starter' poly relationship is a 'friends with benefits' relationship with someone who is definitely not interested in anything more. It's less threatening to the pre-existing partner if they know that the 'other person' doesn't actually *want* a relationship with their partner. I think this is also why monogamish relationships can be easier than poly, and why a commenter above said that they always choose relationships with people who already have a committed relationship.
I understand people saying that they don't want to know about other people's sex lives, but when it comes to poly relationships the relationship is not necessarily just about sex. Frankly, the above is more than I usually share about my sex life - to anyone! - and I have only done so to illustrate the point that a multiperson relationship can nevertheless be as valid and complex a relationship as any other.
Just as when someone introduces or talks about their spouse, they are not talking about or flaunting their sex life, so when I introduce or talk about my partners, I am not flaunting my sex life. And just as, for LGBT people, it is easier to remain closeted when we are single than when we are partnered, so with poly relationships it is relatively unproblematic to remain closeted until you are in a meaningful relationship with more than one person. My partner of 2 years would be devastated if I introduced or spoke about her as a 'friend' simply to ease a potentially uncomfortable social situation. And reasonably so: I had no trouble introducing my partner of 21 years as 'my boyfriend' when we had been together only 2 years. As we have children together, my relationship with him is currently obvious to all, but if it were not, I know he, too, would be devastated to be introduced as a 'friend'.
The problem is social judgments and pressure, not the relationship itself. It would be nice to be free of those, to not cause discomfort to other people simply by introducing my partners accurately. As things stand now, ultimately I have to ask myself: Am I prepared to sacrifice my partner's happiness, security and dignity for the sake of avoiding causing discomfort to another person or to myself. And the answer is invariably, of course, No.
More...
My relationship/s became actively poly about 16 years ago; teething difficulties, of course, but nothing insurmountable or genuinely threatening to my original relationship. I should add that there have not been active poly relationships for the whole of that 16 years: in total, about 8 years worth of active poly relationships, but spread out.
For me, poly has always been about the relationship more than the sex. I have a chronic illness of 20 years' standing which seriously depresses my libido. So (for me, at least) being / living poly is about a whole lot more than oodles of sex which I often don't have the energy for, anyway.
In my experience (which of course will not be the same as that of others) the most important thing in sustaining happy poly relationships is emotional security. When you are absolutely secure in a relationship, when you feel cared-for and nurtured, you don't mind your partner/s being with other people as well as you, and are free to delight in their happiness with other people. That total confidence is only built when your partner is with other people but keeps on coming back to you anyway. It is much easier if the 'starter' poly relationship is a 'friends with benefits' relationship with someone who is definitely not interested in anything more. It's less threatening to the pre-existing partner if they know that the 'other person' doesn't actually *want* a relationship with their partner. I think this is also why monogamish relationships can be easier than poly, and why a commenter above said that they always choose relationships with people who already have a committed relationship.
I understand people saying that they don't want to know about other people's sex lives, but when it comes to poly relationships the relationship is not necessarily just about sex. Frankly, the above is more than I usually share about my sex life - to anyone! - and I have only done so to illustrate the point that a multiperson relationship can nevertheless be as valid and complex a relationship as any other.
Just as when someone introduces or talks about their spouse, they are not talking about or flaunting their sex life, so when I introduce or talk about my partners, I am not flaunting my sex life. And just as, for LGBT people, it is easier to remain closeted when we are single than when we are partnered, so with poly relationships it is relatively unproblematic to remain closeted until you are in a meaningful relationship with more than one person. My partner of 2 years would be devastated if I introduced or spoke about her as a 'friend' simply to ease a potentially uncomfortable social situation. And reasonably so: I had no trouble introducing my partner of 21 years as 'my boyfriend' when we had been together only 2 years. As we have children together, my relationship with him is currently obvious to all, but if it were not, I know he, too, would be devastated to be introduced as a 'friend'.
The problem is social judgments and pressure, not the relationship itself. It would be nice to be free of those, to not cause discomfort to other people simply by introducing my partners accurately. As things stand now, ultimately I have to ask myself: Am I prepared to sacrifice my partner's happiness, security and dignity for the sake of avoiding causing discomfort to another person or to myself. And the answer is invariably, of course, No.
93
@90 - It's interesting you mention the cuckold fetish - that was actually our original setup. I've never been good at monogamy, and I think I made that pretty clear from early on, but it took me awhile to understand that, not only was my husband okay with it, he was immensely turned on by it. Our path to poly was different from most, because that was our basis for it for more than 10 years - the whole hotwife/cuckold thing. It was only about two years ago that my husband decided he'd like to put a toe in the pool himself - and then when he did, the responses were very slow in coming. Things are looking up lately, but we had some adjustment period, when it became obvious that, even at my age (I'm 52), I'm still able to attract a fair amount of attention, but it took him quite awhile before the women in the community started warming up to him. As he put it, "you could have different dates every night of the week, and I feel like I still don't know anyone's name!" But after we'd been around for a year or so, the balance started to shift, so now things are more in equilibrium.
Most of our learning curve was in the very early days, when I realized I was a New Relationship Energy junkie. I fall into infatuations very quickly, and very hard, and that was AWFUL for my husband at first. I fall out of infatuation just as quickly, but it took time for us both to realize that and to adjust to it. So now I'm much more cautious in the early days of a relationship, when that rush of NRE is so overwhelming - I make sure my husband gets extra attention.
And I want to second everything - EVERYTHING! - Megaera said in @92, which is wonderful.
Most of our learning curve was in the very early days, when I realized I was a New Relationship Energy junkie. I fall into infatuations very quickly, and very hard, and that was AWFUL for my husband at first. I fall out of infatuation just as quickly, but it took time for us both to realize that and to adjust to it. So now I'm much more cautious in the early days of a relationship, when that rush of NRE is so overwhelming - I make sure my husband gets extra attention.
And I want to second everything - EVERYTHING! - Megaera said in @92, which is wonderful.
94
Ms Erica - Actually, I was thinking logistically. For example, with all due respect to any of our bisexual friends, whom I don't intend deliberately to erase in this post, four straight men and four straight women produce 16 possible couples and 48 possible three-ways (in which, if we are being strict, one of the three participants is the Star and clearly so), while eight lesbians produce 28 possible couples and 56 possible three-ways (which have a good deal more fluidity in composition - again, if we allow the condition that we're dealing with monosexual groups throughout both my little communities).
So, we have questions of whether same-sex couples that open might be more likely to go a three-way route given the much higher likelihood that both halves will be about equally attracted to the same potential third. If so, which couples are removed from the pool if we look at those who go the route of separate outside contacts? There too, as both halves of the couple are drawing from the same potential pool, there's no inherent bias with which to deal. If you, for instance, were Eric instead of Erica, then you and Mr E would be fishing in the same pool, which in one respect would reduce possible concerns due to Erica's pool being much better stocked than her husband's with fish likely to take the particular bait on offer. But there would be other concerns. Mr E might want to date someone who preferred Eric. Or (as I am almost certain happened in a story written by my old friend Bill Mann) a couple who went the DADT route might both date the same person.
Again, I apologize to anyone of the bisexual persuasion. I was just contemplating possible differences between OOSCs and OSSCs, and it turned into a rather big snowball just restricting it as I did. Had I tried to include bisexuality, it would have attained avalanche proportions.
More...
So, we have questions of whether same-sex couples that open might be more likely to go a three-way route given the much higher likelihood that both halves will be about equally attracted to the same potential third. If so, which couples are removed from the pool if we look at those who go the route of separate outside contacts? There too, as both halves of the couple are drawing from the same potential pool, there's no inherent bias with which to deal. If you, for instance, were Eric instead of Erica, then you and Mr E would be fishing in the same pool, which in one respect would reduce possible concerns due to Erica's pool being much better stocked than her husband's with fish likely to take the particular bait on offer. But there would be other concerns. Mr E might want to date someone who preferred Eric. Or (as I am almost certain happened in a story written by my old friend Bill Mann) a couple who went the DADT route might both date the same person.
Again, I apologize to anyone of the bisexual persuasion. I was just contemplating possible differences between OOSCs and OSSCs, and it turned into a rather big snowball just restricting it as I did. Had I tried to include bisexuality, it would have attained avalanche proportions.
95
@94 Sigh. I've always hated problems involving permutations & combinations. If I can make it a question of culture, not math, I'd say that MF couples would be more likely to have three-ways than MM, because three-ways are imagined to help with MF jealousy issues.
96
Ms Geni - Congratulations on still being viable. I often feel guilty about having deliberately given up romance, and rarely tell people in real life that I have done so, because the potential reactions aren't very kind:
* Sour Grapes - that I gave up only pre-emptively because I knew I couldn't attract anyone if I tried
* Conceit - that I'd have to be pretty deluded to think I had any real choice in the matter
* Cheating - that it's no fair to go right to being happy alone without going through a lengthy period of unreasonable aspirations and the attendant disappointments
If I keep up in this manner I'll start reminding myself of Sir Walter Elliot.
* Sour Grapes - that I gave up only pre-emptively because I knew I couldn't attract anyone if I tried
* Conceit - that I'd have to be pretty deluded to think I had any real choice in the matter
* Cheating - that it's no fair to go right to being happy alone without going through a lengthy period of unreasonable aspirations and the attendant disappointments
If I keep up in this manner I'll start reminding myself of Sir Walter Elliot.
97
Ms Erica - Well, that's certainly a consideration. I was just wondering whether the divide were so great that they ought to be treated as different animals, and the rest just all sort of collected as the snowball rolled.
98
@ 74 ankylosaur: "do different rates of success between hubby and wifey with outside lovers ever cause stress/tensions/problems? " Um, yes.
@ 62 Tim Horton -- not sure if you're still reading, but my two bits about the wisdom of DADT: doesn't work well. At least not for me--the imagination runs riot with no actual facts to bump up against. Not saying the facts themselves are easy to deal with all the time, but at least they're real and you've got something to work with. I vote for total honesty, but everyone's needs are different.
@ 62 Tim Horton -- not sure if you're still reading, but my two bits about the wisdom of DADT: doesn't work well. At least not for me--the imagination runs riot with no actual facts to bump up against. Not saying the facts themselves are easy to deal with all the time, but at least they're real and you've got something to work with. I vote for total honesty, but everyone's needs are different.
99
@93, since I also have a little of a cuckold fetish in me, I can appreciate how your husband felt. (A pity my wife is not so into NRE as you are...) But what you say makes me think of another thing: namely, that people with kinks (and also vanilla people, but it's a little less obvious in their case) often think that when they realize their kink everything will be forever OK. Once I have What I Always Wanted, then I will be Happy Forever (call that the "...and they lived happily ever after" syndrome).
Alas, since people do change in time (as EricaP, I think, once pointed out), one should not forget that what seems like pure bliss at first may look different in the future. We know now that we're not anymore the people we used to be 10, 15 years ago; why should we expect we'll be the same person 10, 15 years in the future? Whatever our sexual interests are, they will also change and evolve with time. We should remind ourselves of that more often.
(Your screen name -- Geni -- reminds me of a song by Brazilian composer and singer Chico Buarque about a woman who had to face the wrath of the self-righteous because of her non-vanilla lifestyle. I hope you didn't have this kind of problem! :-)
Alas, since people do change in time (as EricaP, I think, once pointed out), one should not forget that what seems like pure bliss at first may look different in the future. We know now that we're not anymore the people we used to be 10, 15 years ago; why should we expect we'll be the same person 10, 15 years in the future? Whatever our sexual interests are, they will also change and evolve with time. We should remind ourselves of that more often.
(Your screen name -- Geni -- reminds me of a song by Brazilian composer and singer Chico Buarque about a woman who had to face the wrath of the self-righteous because of her non-vanilla lifestyle. I hope you didn't have this kind of problem! :-)
100
As a cheated-on separated strictly monogamous wife and mother of 3 children, let me tell you what made me decide to agree to ending the marriage : the psychological abuse.
If he had been nonmonogamous and gracious about it - I would have stayed married. But FA - Fat Asshole is his name.
I never cared for wherever his dick went, at all. I just couldn't stand to be humiliated by this prick and sorry excuse of a human being any more, and to have to lie to my children about why he had no interest whatsoever for them.
If you read me, years after I'm writing this, my lovelies : in 2006-2008 Daddy wasn't not paying attention to you because he was tired from his work. Daddy was paying no attention to you because he was constantly online with his mistress(es), from our very bedroom, while at the same time making me cry, by repetedly telling me he would divorce me if I stopped being subservient enough - and had I thought of what would become of the children if my attitude gave him no other choice than, quote, "to divorce me in order to keep his own sanity" ?
And why did I stay monogamous ? Because I swore I would. And I'm a person of my word, me. But let me tell you, I'm never gonna swear that again. I'm not stupid anymore.
If he had been nonmonogamous and gracious about it - I would have stayed married. But FA - Fat Asshole is his name.
I never cared for wherever his dick went, at all. I just couldn't stand to be humiliated by this prick and sorry excuse of a human being any more, and to have to lie to my children about why he had no interest whatsoever for them.
If you read me, years after I'm writing this, my lovelies : in 2006-2008 Daddy wasn't not paying attention to you because he was tired from his work. Daddy was paying no attention to you because he was constantly online with his mistress(es), from our very bedroom, while at the same time making me cry, by repetedly telling me he would divorce me if I stopped being subservient enough - and had I thought of what would become of the children if my attitude gave him no other choice than, quote, "to divorce me in order to keep his own sanity" ?
And why did I stay monogamous ? Because I swore I would. And I'm a person of my word, me. But let me tell you, I'm never gonna swear that again. I'm not stupid anymore.
102
I hate abusive dickheads. It troubles me that so many women find them attractive (where did all those mistresses come from?). And I love it when they get kicked to the curb. Yay sissoucat! I hope you're in a better place.
104
I found it interesting that the letter writer doesn't say anything about her husband's lovers, just her own. I like the theory of polyamory (or monogamishonomy if we want to be more inclusive) but I have to wonder if - nine times out of ten - it's just garden-variety narcissism masquerading as emotional enlightenment. That's what I get from this letter, not a revelation of "oh my god, couples can totally make non-monogamy work." If you want to be non-monogamous, great but then don't get married and don't smugly delight that your PTA cohorts would never suspect!
105
@104, why should non-monogamous or monogamish couples not get married? They may very well want to live as a married couple like everybody else. Why shouldn't they?
And I hope you understand polyamory is something else -- multiple relationships at equal level (whereas monogamish implies a very strong difference between a primary and a secondary).
Personally, all I see in the LW's account is a person describing how non-monogamy worked fine in her (and her husband's) case. It's of course your right to read what you want into the LW's letter -- "narcissism masquerading as emotional enlightenment" does exist in the world, and I'm sure there are some non-monogamous couples where it is to be found. But allow me to remind you that cognitive narcissism (also known as 'self-righteousness') can also be found among those who criticize other people's choice of lifestyle. Let us hope that this is not your case.
And I hope you understand polyamory is something else -- multiple relationships at equal level (whereas monogamish implies a very strong difference between a primary and a secondary).
Personally, all I see in the LW's account is a person describing how non-monogamy worked fine in her (and her husband's) case. It's of course your right to read what you want into the LW's letter -- "narcissism masquerading as emotional enlightenment" does exist in the world, and I'm sure there are some non-monogamous couples where it is to be found. But allow me to remind you that cognitive narcissism (also known as 'self-righteousness') can also be found among those who criticize other people's choice of lifestyle. Let us hope that this is not your case.
106
@100, the situation you describe is truly appalling. You have my total sympathy. I hope you have been able to successfully move on and find a better place to be for yourself.
107
@104, to add to ankylosaur's comment, I'll note that I don't pretend to be "emotionally enlightened," and I'm probably a garden-variety narcissist (or I wouldn't enjoy the attention I get here quite so much), but I'm not hurting anyone by relishing the idea that I have a secret life, hidden from my fellow PTA parents. The guys I meet like the idea too; it's a regular part of the MILF fantasy. There are so few suburban joys; why take this one away from us?
108
@104 Centrist,
At the heart of the question of polyamory, or more generally non(quasi?)-monogamy lies the fact that all of us have experienced: It is possible to love more than one person at a time. Whole hosts of people can be sexually attractive for any given individual, at any given time, and somehow we can only be with one? Narcissism merely extends the group size of beloved and attractive possibilities to include oneself (though in the extreme limits both to one), a condition most people maintain.
@92 and @100 show us what I feel to be the cornerstone of success of a LTR: Security, reassurance, and support within the relationship. @92 is a poly relationship with great success, and @100 monogamous with great pain; is it a critique of monogamy (my own LTR is monogamous, so, no)? Marriage, children, and PTA aren't implied since a healthy, vibrant relationship requires none of those (but having a certain degree of self love helps to support it).
It is sometimes difficult to acknowledge the similarities of a set because we have been so well trained to spot differences. Once you can spot the similarities, it is easy to dismiss many aspects of differentiation for what they are: triviality. We are all human, no matter what the wrapper looks like, the "type" of soul the wrapper contains, or what we do to physically connect ourselves to others.
Peace.
At the heart of the question of polyamory, or more generally non(quasi?)-monogamy lies the fact that all of us have experienced: It is possible to love more than one person at a time. Whole hosts of people can be sexually attractive for any given individual, at any given time, and somehow we can only be with one? Narcissism merely extends the group size of beloved and attractive possibilities to include oneself (though in the extreme limits both to one), a condition most people maintain.
@92 and @100 show us what I feel to be the cornerstone of success of a LTR: Security, reassurance, and support within the relationship. @92 is a poly relationship with great success, and @100 monogamous with great pain; is it a critique of monogamy (my own LTR is monogamous, so, no)? Marriage, children, and PTA aren't implied since a healthy, vibrant relationship requires none of those (but having a certain degree of self love helps to support it).
It is sometimes difficult to acknowledge the similarities of a set because we have been so well trained to spot differences. Once you can spot the similarities, it is easy to dismiss many aspects of differentiation for what they are: triviality. We are all human, no matter what the wrapper looks like, the "type" of soul the wrapper contains, or what we do to physically connect ourselves to others.
Peace.
109
29/Rotten666: Unfortunately, for every couple like this there are a dozen that completely fall apart when they open up the relationship.
I doubt the ratio is that bad, only one success for every twelve failures, but it would be interesting to know what the ratio actually is.
It's always seemed to me that having an open relationship would be a far better deal for a woman than for a man, since it's much easier for a woman to find other men for sex than it is for a man to find other women.
I doubt the ratio is that bad, only one success for every twelve failures, but it would be interesting to know what the ratio actually is.
It's always seemed to me that having an open relationship would be a far better deal for a woman than for a man, since it's much easier for a woman to find other men for sex than it is for a man to find other women.
110
@109 - Wives in that situation often have to deal with either a husband pushing them to do it more than they want to (if he gets off on it), or with a jealous husband (if not).
Plus, sex-without-a-relationship isn't what most women are looking for. (Just like men aren't looking for dates to the opera.) If you're talking about polyamory (not just sex), then I don't think it's any harder for men than for women to find that kind of emotional & physical connection. (See Geni's description @93 of her husband just needing to be patient...)
Plus, sex-without-a-relationship isn't what most women are looking for. (Just like men aren't looking for dates to the opera.) If you're talking about polyamory (not just sex), then I don't think it's any harder for men than for women to find that kind of emotional & physical connection. (See Geni's description @93 of her husband just needing to be patient...)
111
Erica, I'd agree that most women likely aren't looking for sex without a relationship. So, I should refine what I originally said to pertain to open relationships where just sex is what the couple wants with other people. If the open relationship is about polyamory, then you're probably right that it's a more even playing field for the man and woman.
112
@111 agreed - if the woman wants casual sex (and her husband isn't going to give her a hard time and doesn't get off on her adventures), then yes, she's probably going to enjoy open marriage more than he is. But he can improve his success rate if he tells women he's lying to his wife...
113
Erica, not sure if you're serious or joking with "But he can improve his success rate if he tells women he's lying to his wife...?
By the way, I forgot this earlier... When I read your "Just like men aren't looking for dates to the opera" it brought back a memory from about ten years ago. A friend of mine told me about a singles event for the Seattle Opera. Listening to opera is about as appealing to me as hearing a baby scream but I decided to go anyway. At the pre-opera function, the ratio of women to men was about 10-to-1. I was chatting with one woman when she said, "I just don't understand where all the men are" and I had to laugh (to myself.)
By the way, I forgot this earlier... When I read your "Just like men aren't looking for dates to the opera" it brought back a memory from about ten years ago. A friend of mine told me about a singles event for the Seattle Opera. Listening to opera is about as appealing to me as hearing a baby scream but I decided to go anyway. At the pre-opera function, the ratio of women to men was about 10-to-1. I was chatting with one woman when she said, "I just don't understand where all the men are" and I had to laugh (to myself.)
114
Y'know, it's interesting.
As someone who had a very rude awakening(over six years in the making!) in regards to if he is nonmonogamous(the answer is decidedly not) it would make sense that I was one of those super rage types who hate anything nonmonogamy related.
Oddly enough, I don't. True, I'd rather be locked in a room with the GOP candidates while hydrochloric acid was slowly seeped in over the span of several days than try any form of nonmonogamy again but as long as it happens "out there" I'm pretty ok with it. I'd even go so far as to say it may work for them and(on my good days) I'll even wish them well.
As someone who had a very rude awakening(over six years in the making!) in regards to if he is nonmonogamous(the answer is decidedly not) it would make sense that I was one of those super rage types who hate anything nonmonogamy related.
Oddly enough, I don't. True, I'd rather be locked in a room with the GOP candidates while hydrochloric acid was slowly seeped in over the span of several days than try any form of nonmonogamy again but as long as it happens "out there" I'm pretty ok with it. I'd even go so far as to say it may work for them and(on my good days) I'll even wish them well.
115
@113 - I'm not recommending it; I think people should be ethical. But I'm noting that factually, in our screwed-up culture, more women will have sex with a cheating husband than an openly non-monogamous husband.
116
@115 Erica,
Would you be so kind as to attempt to explain why that might be the case (I am clueless)?
Um, is it because the man might be less likely to form an attachment/ a relationship if they might get caught out?
Peace.
Would you be so kind as to attempt to explain why that might be the case (I am clueless)?
Um, is it because the man might be less likely to form an attachment/ a relationship if they might get caught out?
Peace.
117
@116, a husband who claims to be inherently monogamous, but who is inexorably drawn by the mistress' beauty & wonderfulness -- such a man will make a great monogamous husband for the mistress, once she separates him from his shrew of a wife (who doesn't understand him).
Conversely, a husband whose wife knows & encourages him to find extramarital fun -- he's not likely to leave such a wife, and anyway, the mistress isn't interested in recreating a non-monogamous life with him. She wants to believe he'll be monogamous with her.
Also - a cheater seems like a normal flawed person (to most people in our culture); a polyamorous guy seems like some kind of weird freak (unless you run in those circles).
Make sense?
Conversely, a husband whose wife knows & encourages him to find extramarital fun -- he's not likely to leave such a wife, and anyway, the mistress isn't interested in recreating a non-monogamous life with him. She wants to believe he'll be monogamous with her.
Also - a cheater seems like a normal flawed person (to most people in our culture); a polyamorous guy seems like some kind of weird freak (unless you run in those circles).
Make sense?
118
@117 Erica,
"Make sense?"
Fuck no! (But I already stated my cluelessness)
It just seems like pretzel logic.
Peace.
"Make sense?"
Fuck no! (But I already stated my cluelessness)
It just seems like pretzel logic.
Peace.
119
It's confusing that the mistress believes he won't cheat on her, if she got him to leave his wife for her? But the mistress thinks they are in "true love," and she is the right person for him; the fact that he cheats on his wife is just proof that his wife is the wrong person for him.
120
@ ankylosaur, EricaP, and LateBloomer : thank you for your kind words.
I've been in a better place for some time already - the divorce is not final yet, but the husband is mostly out of my life, and I've met someone truly amazing (sexually speaking) and it's been a rebirth of sorts... but I'm definitely through with monogamism, at least in spirit.
Guys like my husband are predators who live off women. Some women understand the type right away and steer clear of them. I didn't. The first mean thing he ever told me was when I was 6 months pregnant with our firts child. The second one, six months later. Will you quit your husband over 2 mean sayings in 3 years, and a young baby ? No. But 10 years later, the situation had evolved to - what I described in 100.
As for the mistresses who fall for those guys ? Well, one was 10-20+ years older than the husband and me, and very happy to have a younger man show any interest in her (over the internet). She travelled hundreds of miles, probably on her own expense, to meet him. A female coworker (of him) would lend them her flat.
The other was a serial cheater, mother of 3 kids who went to school with my own 3 kids - the kind who tells you "that would have been so much better for everybody if I had never met your husband ! I would have loved to be friends with you !" and then, when you ask her to please write a testimony on how he verbally abused me in front of her, she answers "oh you know this is old stories, I've moved on, and anyway if it hadn't been me it would have been another woman". I say cheater because the husband seemed not too pleased to have my husband come over at their house to meet her once, but then he never kicked him out, did he ? So...
I've been in a better place for some time already - the divorce is not final yet, but the husband is mostly out of my life, and I've met someone truly amazing (sexually speaking) and it's been a rebirth of sorts... but I'm definitely through with monogamism, at least in spirit.
Guys like my husband are predators who live off women. Some women understand the type right away and steer clear of them. I didn't. The first mean thing he ever told me was when I was 6 months pregnant with our firts child. The second one, six months later. Will you quit your husband over 2 mean sayings in 3 years, and a young baby ? No. But 10 years later, the situation had evolved to - what I described in 100.
As for the mistresses who fall for those guys ? Well, one was 10-20+ years older than the husband and me, and very happy to have a younger man show any interest in her (over the internet). She travelled hundreds of miles, probably on her own expense, to meet him. A female coworker (of him) would lend them her flat.
The other was a serial cheater, mother of 3 kids who went to school with my own 3 kids - the kind who tells you "that would have been so much better for everybody if I had never met your husband ! I would have loved to be friends with you !" and then, when you ask her to please write a testimony on how he verbally abused me in front of her, she answers "oh you know this is old stories, I've moved on, and anyway if it hadn't been me it would have been another woman". I say cheater because the husband seemed not too pleased to have my husband come over at their house to meet her once, but then he never kicked him out, did he ? So...
121
Just to throw in a variant for you all.
I've been in a mostly happy unmarried-with-children relationship 10 years this coming February or March.
I'm the male. We started with an attempt at monogamish. Sounded good.. however... She could get, I'm socially inpept and don't. so we held off after the initial she-can-i-apparently-suck incident.
Some years passed. She wanted more. I said only if I can find some too. Nope, isn't avaliable for me. held off again. I'm still 'behind' from a male point of view at this point.
More years passed. "Friend" of mine asks her for fling. She and I talk, she misunderstands that it's only cool if I can get some too but have no current options. I lose sanity when I realize I don't even have any woman friends to vent to, much less proposition, as she's off to have fun.
Two more years have passed. I spent the first 6 months of the last 2 years researching how to meet women and trying to the best of my ability to follow the "game" rules within the ethical limits of my own personality quirks. Failed miserably.
Boo on me, been through the aforementioned midlife crisis during that 6 months. Lost all joy in male friendship. takes more energy to interface than I gain from the interactions. (Unfortunately that's my only social skillset.)
I'm really out of luck and ideas. don't enjoy drinking... being in public, everyone is on the other side of a thick glass wall unless they make some show of interest in talking...
women are apparently trained by society to not talk first, so in the past couple years I've been hit on by more males than women. I haven't even had as many women simply TALK to me as I've been accosted by guys.
my girl's getting antsy again. gets hit on by nearly every male she hangs around at all.
I still have no women contacts, much less friends.
after the bouts of depressive behavior as she continues to meet people (95% male of course) and I can't seem to make any friends at all, she's come to accept if not understand my position through repeated explanation, comparison, and metaphor.
she's very supportive of the idea that I want to be around, at least, other girls... but she hasn't been able to help me find even a friend, much less a fling or FWB.
mostly due to her friends being my old social circle (which degraded to being all guys after having kids) that I feel to effeminate to hang around anymore.
she wants to help, I want it fixed too. we don't know how to deal with me, basically.
the main factor which prevents me from "game" at the introduction level (my only serious shortfall) is a serious dislike of invading personal space coupled with a strong do-unto-others-as-i'd-appreciate-myself outlook.
my interests don't fit any clubs, I don't like working out, don't have a dog... walking outside is cool but there's always the glass wall between me and strangers. my existing social base is worthless for meeting new women and now I'm embarrassed to even be in the same room with any of my old friends anyway since they constantly exhibit the male behaviors I feel incapable of (or simply abhor as unethical crap.)
not really seeking support anymore, it's been long enough to cool off, and I don't know anyone I trust enough to help, or who wouldn't be too embarrassing to talk to about it all.
just venting about the unfairness viewpoint of the societal options for a beta male like me, who just was lucky enough years to never learn game when I was flexible enough to absorb it.
I go through waves of neutral emotion (my native state) which bottom into near depression as it becomes more obvious over time I'm probably never going to "catch up" in my relationship, much less be able to enjoy it like someone socially competent could. plus the extra stress of never having had anyone to talk to about my problem other than a partner who is sympathetic but doesn't even understand, and you random internet people.
we keep trying, and my woman is showing a lot more restraint than she'd like. we still love each other at least, and always make an effort to talk and work things out.
I just feel helpless, emasculated and low-grade, (and very lonely when my woman is out socializing with other guys who generally hit on her.)
funny, because every facet of myself other than regarding meeting women, I have no esteem issues with. I know I'm at least functional at everything else, if not downright good at doing other things. I'm even pretty good with women, I've heard, but only once I already know them.
the flip side if the coin....
she's bi, and I get excited and happy when she gets around other girls, especially when there's been a chance of sexuality there. so I'm capable of enjoying her happiness with others... I'm just so burned on males they all either irritate me, or like one I know who is above the whole male/female thing, he embarrasses me horribly by example instead of making me feel like a non-male like other guys.
by the way, monogamy doesn't look to be a good option. she's antsy, and from a male standpoint, if I give up now I'll be a loser in the situation... forever.
thanks for listening.
More...
I've been in a mostly happy unmarried-with-children relationship 10 years this coming February or March.
I'm the male. We started with an attempt at monogamish. Sounded good.. however... She could get, I'm socially inpept and don't. so we held off after the initial she-can-i-apparently-suck incident.
Some years passed. She wanted more. I said only if I can find some too. Nope, isn't avaliable for me. held off again. I'm still 'behind' from a male point of view at this point.
More years passed. "Friend" of mine asks her for fling. She and I talk, she misunderstands that it's only cool if I can get some too but have no current options. I lose sanity when I realize I don't even have any woman friends to vent to, much less proposition, as she's off to have fun.
Two more years have passed. I spent the first 6 months of the last 2 years researching how to meet women and trying to the best of my ability to follow the "game" rules within the ethical limits of my own personality quirks. Failed miserably.
Boo on me, been through the aforementioned midlife crisis during that 6 months. Lost all joy in male friendship. takes more energy to interface than I gain from the interactions. (Unfortunately that's my only social skillset.)
I'm really out of luck and ideas. don't enjoy drinking... being in public, everyone is on the other side of a thick glass wall unless they make some show of interest in talking...
women are apparently trained by society to not talk first, so in the past couple years I've been hit on by more males than women. I haven't even had as many women simply TALK to me as I've been accosted by guys.
my girl's getting antsy again. gets hit on by nearly every male she hangs around at all.
I still have no women contacts, much less friends.
after the bouts of depressive behavior as she continues to meet people (95% male of course) and I can't seem to make any friends at all, she's come to accept if not understand my position through repeated explanation, comparison, and metaphor.
she's very supportive of the idea that I want to be around, at least, other girls... but she hasn't been able to help me find even a friend, much less a fling or FWB.
mostly due to her friends being my old social circle (which degraded to being all guys after having kids) that I feel to effeminate to hang around anymore.
she wants to help, I want it fixed too. we don't know how to deal with me, basically.
the main factor which prevents me from "game" at the introduction level (my only serious shortfall) is a serious dislike of invading personal space coupled with a strong do-unto-others-as-i'd-appreciate-myself outlook.
my interests don't fit any clubs, I don't like working out, don't have a dog... walking outside is cool but there's always the glass wall between me and strangers. my existing social base is worthless for meeting new women and now I'm embarrassed to even be in the same room with any of my old friends anyway since they constantly exhibit the male behaviors I feel incapable of (or simply abhor as unethical crap.)
not really seeking support anymore, it's been long enough to cool off, and I don't know anyone I trust enough to help, or who wouldn't be too embarrassing to talk to about it all.
just venting about the unfairness viewpoint of the societal options for a beta male like me, who just was lucky enough years to never learn game when I was flexible enough to absorb it.
I go through waves of neutral emotion (my native state) which bottom into near depression as it becomes more obvious over time I'm probably never going to "catch up" in my relationship, much less be able to enjoy it like someone socially competent could. plus the extra stress of never having had anyone to talk to about my problem other than a partner who is sympathetic but doesn't even understand, and you random internet people.
we keep trying, and my woman is showing a lot more restraint than she'd like. we still love each other at least, and always make an effort to talk and work things out.
I just feel helpless, emasculated and low-grade, (and very lonely when my woman is out socializing with other guys who generally hit on her.)
funny, because every facet of myself other than regarding meeting women, I have no esteem issues with. I know I'm at least functional at everything else, if not downright good at doing other things. I'm even pretty good with women, I've heard, but only once I already know them.
the flip side if the coin....
she's bi, and I get excited and happy when she gets around other girls, especially when there's been a chance of sexuality there. so I'm capable of enjoying her happiness with others... I'm just so burned on males they all either irritate me, or like one I know who is above the whole male/female thing, he embarrasses me horribly by example instead of making me feel like a non-male like other guys.
by the way, monogamy doesn't look to be a good option. she's antsy, and from a male standpoint, if I give up now I'll be a loser in the situation... forever.
thanks for listening.
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