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News & ArtsWednesday, December 14, 2011
Education / Money / Olympia University of Washington Resident Applications Down 5.6 Percent
Posted by Goldy on Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 4:25 PM
In an email to high school guidance counselors, University of Washington Assistant Vice President for Enrollment Philip Ballinger revealed that while total undergraduate admissions applications are up 6.5 percent year over year, from 24,181 for the quarter starting in autumn 2011 to 25,758 for 2012, they are actually down 5.6 percent for resident applicants:
| Washington Resident Applications Received: | 9,193 (-548, -5.6%) |
| U.S. Nonresident Applications Received: | 9,988 (+440, +4.6%) |
| International Applications Received: | 6,577 (+1685, +34.4%) |
Due to demographic trends, resident freshman applications have declined statewide in recent years, a trend the UW has managed to buck up until now. So some drop in applications would not be unexpected. "Still," writes Ballinger, "the decrease is larger than I would normally have expected."
Ballinger goes on to ask the guidance counselors on the list for their thoughts on the reasons behind the decline, and one of the first to respond makes a striking and disturbing point. Carollynn Hanson, the college and career counselor at Auburn Mountainview High School writes:
What I am hearing, however, is that the cost of attendance is so high. The most savvy parent and senior have done their research and are finding that out-of-state colleges, particularly private institutions, are not THAT much more expensive given the help they anticipate receiving. Nearly all of these kids have stellar grades/resume so will receive more in the way of merit scholarships as enticement to leave the state. Bottom line, they pay no more and often pay less “out of pocket”.
Despite my preaching about the wonderful array of colleges available to them in this state, the most accomplished students all look to leave here. The UW, frankly, is their “back-up” school. This, I think, is our biggest challenge. WHY do our kids seem to think our in-state colleges are not “good enough”? I have been a high school counselor for over 25 years now and this is a fairly recent trend.
It's true. For the best and the brightest our state produces, many of the top, private universities are now cheaper than the UW, depending on family income. For example, at my alma mater, the University of Pennsylvania, where tuition and fees now list at an exorbitant $42,098 (four times the UW's resident undergraduate $10,574), and total costs, including room, board, books, and personal expenses, are estimated at $57,360, the 182 freshmen coming from families earning between $40,000 and $69,999 received a median financial aid award of $51,870. And that's all grant and work study. Zero loans.
That's an Ivy League education for virtually nothing. Why wouldn't you choose a school like Penn over the UW if you have the option?
If Washington can't compete to keep its best students in state, many of them will move away and never come back, creating a generational brain drain that will make our whole economy less competitive. And that's something legislators and business leaders might want to think about before they oppose the revenue necessary to maintain an affordable, first class public university system.
1
Cause the U is prettier.
And the most green U in the country.
Even if Seattle is stuck on stupid with the Tunnel Of Carbon Malevolence, the UW has a local farm for campus food, platinum LEEDS dorms and campus buildings, uses wind energy shaped by hydro and gas, so you're not making things worse by burning coal.
And the most green U in the country.
Even if Seattle is stuck on stupid with the Tunnel Of Carbon Malevolence, the UW has a local farm for campus food, platinum LEEDS dorms and campus buildings, uses wind energy shaped by hydro and gas, so you're not making things worse by burning coal.
3
Depending on the length of their term, politicians are incapable of thinking beyond the 2- or 4-year event horizon of the next election cycle.
4
I had a 3.75 in high school and UW didn't see fit to admit me - though I grant my list of extracurriculars was limited by a familial obligation to work. This was in 2004; I can only imagine how difficult the admissions criteria must be today. To me there is an opinion among students that the UW is too difficult to get in to; especially as more and more students from out of state are admitted in their stead. Why spend $60 or more and spend a good deal of time applying to a school that seemingly doesn't want me?
6
You should have written "generational brain drain" in all caps like this:
See? You got to have a flair for the dramatic in this biz. Then after warning that our WHOLE economy is going to collapse due to the 5% drop in applications, you really should have pointed out that that is going to lead to LOCUSTS! And then FAMINE!!! ! ! !
And floooooooooddd! Dogs and cats will lie down together! Mothers will not love their babies. The earth will crack and...
See? Because in blogging you're allowed some poetic license, so take it. Take it!
If Washington can't compete to keep its best students in state, many of them will move away and never come back, creating a GENERATIONAL BRAIN DRAIN!!!!!! that will make our whole economy less competitive.
See? You got to have a flair for the dramatic in this biz. Then after warning that our WHOLE economy is going to collapse due to the 5% drop in applications, you really should have pointed out that that is going to lead to LOCUSTS! And then FAMINE!!! ! ! !
And floooooooooddd! Dogs and cats will lie down together! Mothers will not love their babies. The earth will crack and...
See? Because in blogging you're allowed some poetic license, so take it. Take it!
7
This is a very attractive area for people from other parts of the country (and beyond) to work in. Seriously, at my 40-person firm - all college graduates except for our receptionist - I can count on one hand the number of NW natives. So yeah, we will have a brain drain among those born and raised here, but it will be offset by the influx of educated workers from other places.
Other than that, a very interesting post. I wonder to what extent this is affected by more students choosing to start a community college first, in order to save money?
Other than that, a very interesting post. I wonder to what extent this is affected by more students choosing to start a community college first, in order to save money?
8
The state is trying to squeeze the locals out so they can open more slots for international elites willing to pay $30,000 cash.
9
THIS DOES MEAN SOMETHING TO OUR STATE. We PAY for that school and our middle class kids can't afford to go there. (grants are fabulous & welcomed to low income students and we applaud this!!)
Our son applied only to private universities and has been accepted to one of those $50,000 schools. Our financial aid package was huge. TOTAL out of pocket expenses for us will be about $8,000 year. ABOUT $6,000 LESS per year than UW.
Sad day when we ran the numbers to say to our son - we cannot afford to send you to UW (MY alma mater). It just does not make financial sense.
We are hearing this REPEATEDLY @ Seattle school family gatherings.
Our son applied only to private universities and has been accepted to one of those $50,000 schools. Our financial aid package was huge. TOTAL out of pocket expenses for us will be about $8,000 year. ABOUT $6,000 LESS per year than UW.
Sad day when we ran the numbers to say to our son - we cannot afford to send you to UW (MY alma mater). It just does not make financial sense.
We are hearing this REPEATEDLY @ Seattle school family gatherings.
10
@6 actually, turns out the UW is stealing MDs and other health professionals from Africa in a Third Empire Of The Sunless "brain drain".
But @8 is technically correct.
@9 what financial aid? I wouldn't expect any ...
But @8 is technically correct.
@9 what financial aid? I wouldn't expect any ...
11
#9
Yes, it's an incredible contradiction, ain't it?!
On the one hand, the state is crying poor, and begging to raise it's already high taxes on the middle and working classes.
Yet, one of the principle draws on the budget is higher education...specifically UW.
But then, after making the case of having this prestigious university...it goes and ups the price so that the residents (still paying the taxes) don't get to use it?!
This is Government-subsidy-tax pattern that rapes and robs the middle class over and over and over again!
Some guy says he's going to spend $200 million dollars for a new program, and it will create jobs. However, to make it happen, he will need $1 Billion in special no interest loans, grants, and will have to be guaranteed a fixed price and volume for selling the product.
By the time the check is presented to the poor fool dumb enough to be left at the party table...
Yes, it's an incredible contradiction, ain't it?!
On the one hand, the state is crying poor, and begging to raise it's already high taxes on the middle and working classes.
Yet, one of the principle draws on the budget is higher education...specifically UW.
But then, after making the case of having this prestigious university...it goes and ups the price so that the residents (still paying the taxes) don't get to use it?!
This is Government-subsidy-tax pattern that rapes and robs the middle class over and over and over again!
Some guy says he's going to spend $200 million dollars for a new program, and it will create jobs. However, to make it happen, he will need $1 Billion in special no interest loans, grants, and will have to be guaranteed a fixed price and volume for selling the product.
By the time the check is presented to the poor fool dumb enough to be left at the party table...
12
The trend is not that recent -- I went to Stanford in the late 1990s because it was cheaper for me than UW would have been due to Stanford's far more generous need-based financial aid. We need a state income tax to refund public education and stop pricing out working families. Eyman's supermajority tax increase initiative was the worst thing that has ever happened to Washington state. We should have an income tax on the ballot ever year until it passes.
13
While I think the UW has perfectly acceptable graduate programs, I don't see the appeal to an undergraduate.
When I interned there, right out of my days at University of Iowa, I was shocked by what I regarded as a lack of faculty support of the undergraduate programs, and the general indifference they had towards undergrads. Plus, the bureaucracy was truly stifling. Much worse than at Iowa.
Iowa was a large school also, and had its own set of problems. Academically, it probably ranks behind the UW, but the attitude towards students was much better. They seemed to actually want you to graduate. It didn't seem like they cared much either way at UW.
And Mahtli69, the problem you cite is not limited to politicians. It's actually worse at publicly traded companies, where the upper management too often can't/won't look beyond "the street's" earning expectations. It creates an environment where innovation and quality suffers greatly.
When I interned there, right out of my days at University of Iowa, I was shocked by what I regarded as a lack of faculty support of the undergraduate programs, and the general indifference they had towards undergrads. Plus, the bureaucracy was truly stifling. Much worse than at Iowa.
Iowa was a large school also, and had its own set of problems. Academically, it probably ranks behind the UW, but the attitude towards students was much better. They seemed to actually want you to graduate. It didn't seem like they cared much either way at UW.
And Mahtli69, the problem you cite is not limited to politicians. It's actually worse at publicly traded companies, where the upper management too often can't/won't look beyond "the street's" earning expectations. It creates an environment where innovation and quality suffers greatly.
14
I agree with the above statements about the lack of support for undergrads at UW, but I can also say that comparatively, my experience there as a master's student has been completely abysmal. Unless you want to study science or math, I see very little reason to go to UW. The quality of education outside of those subjects to the extent of my knowledge, is currently horrible. And the price goes up and up. And I don't know HOW UW can justify giving preference to out of state applicants to fill their budget hole when it is a STATE university that we all pay for. I think there must be some horrible mismanagement of funds over there, and in general the values are way off. Building a new stadium for no reason is a great example of that. Seems like no focus on educational quality whatsoever, which the majority of students in my cohort would argue is already manifest in the poor quality of our program.
15
UW is a far cry from a "prestigious" university. Funny how the locals consider it as such! UW shares a national ranking slot with freakin' UC Santa Barbara for god's sake (US News college rankings) and, I mean, Lehigh University in Pennsylvania is even ranked higher than it. Lehigh! For those of you from back east, you'll know that Lehigh might be someone's 5th or 6th backup school, if it's even on the radar at all. UW is pretty much a joke. And with the new influx of rich Asian kids with limited language skills paying top dollar, combined with the smart local kids leaving for better schools, UW is not going to be on the up-and-up any time soon. It's going to be a school where increasingly dumber and richer kids are babysat for four years.
16
"Cause the U is prettier.
And the most green U in the country.
Even if Seattle is stuck on stupid with the Tunnel Of Carbon Malevolence, the UW has a local farm for campus food, platinum LEEDS dorms and campus buildings, uses wind energy shaped by hydro and gas, so you're not making things worse by burning coal. "
That is one of the stupidest posts you've ever made, WiS, and that's saying something
And the most green U in the country.
Even if Seattle is stuck on stupid with the Tunnel Of Carbon Malevolence, the UW has a local farm for campus food, platinum LEEDS dorms and campus buildings, uses wind energy shaped by hydro and gas, so you're not making things worse by burning coal. "
That is one of the stupidest posts you've ever made, WiS, and that's saying something
17
"THIS DOES MEAN SOMETHING TO OUR STATE. We PAY for that school and our middle class kids can't afford to go there."
"Yet, one of the principle draws on the budget is higher education...specifically UW.
But then, after making the case of having this prestigious university...it goes and ups the price so that the residents (still paying the taxes) don't get to use it?!"
The amount of money the State of Washington sends UW has dropped by over 50% in the last few years. Yes, FIFTY PERCENT. State support now makes up substantially less than half the cost of attendance, which is why tuition has gone up so much - and until fairly recently the amount that it could be raised in a year was capped by the Legislature. Those two forces - dramatic cuts in support coupled with a ceiling on tuition increases - meant the UW was taking a substantial loss for each Washington resident enrolled. Out of state and foreign students can actually pay their way PLUS subsidize Washington students.
"The quality of education outside of those subjects to the extent of my knowledge, is currently horrible."
Then you need to expand your knowledge. The Colleges of Engineering, Medicine, Public Policy, Law and many others are excellent.
"Building a new stadium for no reason is a great example of that."
Actually there are a bunch of reasons, and not a red cent of taxpayer or tuition money is going towards it.
"UW is a far cry from a "prestigious" university. Funny how the locals consider it as such!"
Maybe because its very worst ranking is in the US News rankings, where it's a HORRIBLE 42nd! And tenth among public universities! hahahahaha lol
"Yet, one of the principle draws on the budget is higher education...specifically UW.
But then, after making the case of having this prestigious university...it goes and ups the price so that the residents (still paying the taxes) don't get to use it?!"
The amount of money the State of Washington sends UW has dropped by over 50% in the last few years. Yes, FIFTY PERCENT. State support now makes up substantially less than half the cost of attendance, which is why tuition has gone up so much - and until fairly recently the amount that it could be raised in a year was capped by the Legislature. Those two forces - dramatic cuts in support coupled with a ceiling on tuition increases - meant the UW was taking a substantial loss for each Washington resident enrolled. Out of state and foreign students can actually pay their way PLUS subsidize Washington students.
"The quality of education outside of those subjects to the extent of my knowledge, is currently horrible."
Then you need to expand your knowledge. The Colleges of Engineering, Medicine, Public Policy, Law and many others are excellent.
"Building a new stadium for no reason is a great example of that."
Actually there are a bunch of reasons, and not a red cent of taxpayer or tuition money is going towards it.
"UW is a far cry from a "prestigious" university. Funny how the locals consider it as such!"
Maybe because its very worst ranking is in the US News rankings, where it's a HORRIBLE 42nd! And tenth among public universities! hahahahaha lol
18
#15
Washington undergrad ranks 42nd. That's pretty damn high.
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreview…
But many of its graduate programs rank in top 5 or top 20 of the country!
And don't forget the highly competitive medical school.
Washington undergrad ranks 42nd. That's pretty damn high.
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreview…
But many of its graduate programs rank in top 5 or top 20 of the country!
And don't forget the highly competitive medical school.
19
Wow, 42nd is high for you? You, Lehigh U & UC Santa Barbara? Ooooo, impressive. It's almost like the Ivy League! (*cough* *cough*)
You local yokels don't get out much do you? Schools in every other region of the U.S. (including the South) rank higher than any school in this region. Hell, Georgia Tech & Case Western U blow you guys out of the water in the 30s. Ever heard of them? Neither have I. Both higher than UW though. All the entire region of the PNW can score is a ranked 42nd school?? Sheesh. I thought this was supposed to be an uber-educated, literate city. Newsflash: the reason why you yokels are ranked so erudite a city is due to us transplants who received our education from decent universities elsewhere. Keep thinking that your precious UW is "prestigious." It's cute. But expect us well educated transplants to secretly laugh at you. HA!
You local yokels don't get out much do you? Schools in every other region of the U.S. (including the South) rank higher than any school in this region. Hell, Georgia Tech & Case Western U blow you guys out of the water in the 30s. Ever heard of them? Neither have I. Both higher than UW though. All the entire region of the PNW can score is a ranked 42nd school?? Sheesh. I thought this was supposed to be an uber-educated, literate city. Newsflash: the reason why you yokels are ranked so erudite a city is due to us transplants who received our education from decent universities elsewhere. Keep thinking that your precious UW is "prestigious." It's cute. But expect us well educated transplants to secretly laugh at you. HA!
22
Hey 19, I'm not sure that someone who had been unaware of Case Western's existence should be calling Washingtonians "local yokels." That aside, It does seem to be true that quite a few college educated residents have come from other states. This is still very bad for the state and shouldn't be waved off as if it didn't matter. If we are growing generations of high school graduates who mostly don't feel the need to go to college, AND the ones who do, must go out of state to get that education, that eventually will affect the quality of life, the success of business and increase the chances that there will be even more people who are proud of their anti-intellectual banners than we already have in Washington.
As for college rankings, it would probably help to know more about how they work, like all of the factors that go into making those rankings before putting a lot of weight or regard for any of them. Don't make the mistake that it is entirely about what happens in the classroom. By the way, I don't work for UW. I didn't graduate from UW. I also think quite a few people that are associated with UW have an over-inflated sense of their status as compared to those associated with any other institution.
When the state cuts over 50% of the support to each and every college and university in Washington, residents who have voted down pop tax, income tax, voted for Eyeman's assholery sure as FUCK do not have any right to say "these are our institutions!" UW's dependence on state support for its operations is very low. It's barely a public any more. Same for the others too. The legislature has used higher education as cash cows to plug budget holes, and you helped!
Complain all you want about your tax dollars supporting higher ed. This is what you fucking wanted. As for non-resident admits and the accusations that institutions prefer them, state support is always contingent upon a certain percentage of admits being non-residents. In other words, the state has never funded 100% of the student population and assumes that say, 23% of new admits will pay full price. As the state YANKED support for higher education, everyone has to increase the percentage of non-residents that they admit. The choice is between shutting down programs or increasing non-resident admits.
As for the type of financial aid available, private, ivy league institutions have alumni, endowments and advancement engines that have been geared for eons to raise money for student scholarships recognizing that most students would not be able to afford paying 100% of the costs.
In the end though, it is a decision that each family has to weigh. Research universities put virtually all of their eggs into graduate education and research and development. Undergraduate education isn't the primary focus. They lure you in with their shiny football stadiums and their mascots and their basketball, etc... counting on the fact that most people conflat athletic success with academic quality. People who excuse obscene salaries for coaches, resources for new stadiums with the tired old saw that "not one red cent" comes from public dollars should instead be asking why there aren't more red cents from athletics GOING INTO the education pot to support more students? Hey, maybe that is what Penn does and why they can offer so much financial aid.
More...
As for college rankings, it would probably help to know more about how they work, like all of the factors that go into making those rankings before putting a lot of weight or regard for any of them. Don't make the mistake that it is entirely about what happens in the classroom. By the way, I don't work for UW. I didn't graduate from UW. I also think quite a few people that are associated with UW have an over-inflated sense of their status as compared to those associated with any other institution.
When the state cuts over 50% of the support to each and every college and university in Washington, residents who have voted down pop tax, income tax, voted for Eyeman's assholery sure as FUCK do not have any right to say "these are our institutions!" UW's dependence on state support for its operations is very low. It's barely a public any more. Same for the others too. The legislature has used higher education as cash cows to plug budget holes, and you helped!
Complain all you want about your tax dollars supporting higher ed. This is what you fucking wanted. As for non-resident admits and the accusations that institutions prefer them, state support is always contingent upon a certain percentage of admits being non-residents. In other words, the state has never funded 100% of the student population and assumes that say, 23% of new admits will pay full price. As the state YANKED support for higher education, everyone has to increase the percentage of non-residents that they admit. The choice is between shutting down programs or increasing non-resident admits.
As for the type of financial aid available, private, ivy league institutions have alumni, endowments and advancement engines that have been geared for eons to raise money for student scholarships recognizing that most students would not be able to afford paying 100% of the costs.
In the end though, it is a decision that each family has to weigh. Research universities put virtually all of their eggs into graduate education and research and development. Undergraduate education isn't the primary focus. They lure you in with their shiny football stadiums and their mascots and their basketball, etc... counting on the fact that most people conflat athletic success with academic quality. People who excuse obscene salaries for coaches, resources for new stadiums with the tired old saw that "not one red cent" comes from public dollars should instead be asking why there aren't more red cents from athletics GOING INTO the education pot to support more students? Hey, maybe that is what Penn does and why they can offer so much financial aid.
23
"Wow, 42nd is high for you? You, Lehigh U & UC Santa Barbara? Ooooo, impressive. It's almost like the Ivy League! (*cough* *cough*)"
Academic Ranking of World Universities - 16
Times Higher Education World University Rankings: 23
Top American Research Universities 11, 3rd public
UW is considered a public ivy
UW gets the second most federal research dollars of any university in the country, something not helped much by our Congressional delegation
In conclusion, Confluence is a moron
Academic Ranking of World Universities - 16
Times Higher Education World University Rankings: 23
Top American Research Universities 11, 3rd public
UW is considered a public ivy
UW gets the second most federal research dollars of any university in the country, something not helped much by our Congressional delegation
In conclusion, Confluence is a moron
24
I appreciate these comments. visit rosesandgifts dot com.(send gifts,flowers and cakes to India.).
25
Whenever I talk to a teenager thinking about college, I tell them what I wish someone had told me: GO SOMEPLACE SUNNY!
You can get a quality education at any one of about 1,000 colleges in America, if you put in the effort, so why not go to a school in a warm, dry climate?
(Yes, still some regret for turning down Pepperdine for UPS.)
You can get a quality education at any one of about 1,000 colleges in America, if you put in the effort, so why not go to a school in a warm, dry climate?
(Yes, still some regret for turning down Pepperdine for UPS.)
26
According to this survey, the UW is the 16th best in the world.
http://www.shanghairanking.com/ARWU2011.…
That this survey comes from China may explain why so many Chinese apply to the UW.
http://www.shanghairanking.com/ARWU2011.…
That this survey comes from China may explain why so many Chinese apply to the UW.
27
The fact is UW is increasingly not a public institution. It's just not. The state is no longer interested in funding it as one. This graph pretty much tells the story:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2…
I'm tired of people arguing for higher education funding cuts and then crying crocodile tears about the people who can't afford the new higher tuition rates, as if those two things aren't somehow connected.
That said, is there any evidence that people are more likely to stay in the place they went to college? I sure didn't.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2…
I'm tired of people arguing for higher education funding cuts and then crying crocodile tears about the people who can't afford the new higher tuition rates, as if those two things aren't somehow connected.
That said, is there any evidence that people are more likely to stay in the place they went to college? I sure didn't.
28
@27 depends on the course.
Masters tend to stick around, Doctorates always leave, Bachelors depends on what plans they had at first.
Masters tend to stick around, Doctorates always leave, Bachelors depends on what plans they had at first.
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