Slog
News & ArtsSaturday, January 14, 2012
Occupy No Fucking Comment
Posted by Dominic Holden on Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 10:14 PM
Photographer Josh Trujillo at Seattlepi.com has the story and pictures of the protesters who carried flaming torches to the Seattle Police Department's East Precinct headquarters today. Part of an official Occupy Seattle march seeking the resignation of Police Chief John Diaz, they brought a banner that declared, "All Cops Are Bastards," and then some of them "verbally abused officers as the police stood by calmly listening to the barrage of swear words and comments on masculinity," Trujillo reports.
1
Fucking idiots... I would never get anywhere near someone who walks around screaming shit at the police while keeping their face covered by a bandanna so they can't be recognized. I'll say shit about the police but I will proudly let everyone know I am saying it.
These are the same drug-addled teenage idiots that co-opted the "Occupy" movement away from the real 99% and drove it into the ground. As far as I'm concerned they can all fucking rot in jail...
Way to go assholes...
I hate Diaz as much as the rest of the city but there are right ways and wrong ways to do something about it...
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Chief-Diaz…
These are the same drug-addled teenage idiots that co-opted the "Occupy" movement away from the real 99% and drove it into the ground. As far as I'm concerned they can all fucking rot in jail...
Way to go assholes...
I hate Diaz as much as the rest of the city but there are right ways and wrong ways to do something about it...
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Chief-Diaz…
5
These jack offs walked by me this evening, and it seems like fully a third of them were taking pictures and videos of each other. I feel that they are a lot more interested in being part of something that feels cinematic than passionate about Chief Diaz. I really don't like Diaz either, wish he would go, and I think there're some real structural problems at SPD. I could even be sympathetic to an unpermitted traffic-blocking march, but being hostile and antagonistic to all cops is counterproductive, and plain juvenile. If I were a good cop (meaning I generally treated citizens with respect and restraint), having some smelly 20-year-old with a bandanna over his face screaming insults at me would frankly make me want to bust some heads.
6
Some of these protestors aren't helping. Neither is Dominic Holden, who chooses to point out only the most negative aspects of this march.
7
I wish Seattle's anarchists would read a bit more anarchist theory.... and strategic and tactical details. They are going to get themselves hurt for almost no reason. Proving that Babylon is a police state by irritating that state into being violent against you only causes them to crack your heads with media-ready justification. They still got the guns. But how you gonna get the numbers?
8
I think the torches kind of drown out any other positive aspects of the march you would seek to highlight.
12
Jesus Christ, after others in the movement showed exactly how it's done to gain the widest media coverage and sympathy (UC Davis), these idiots are ensuring that the movement goes precisely nowhere.
14
Yeah, some torches...that's crazy. Damn. I guess everyone hates the movement now? Wait...when DID people not hate the movement? Did a lot of people support the movement? What came of that support?
.....uh.....nothing.....nothing really, now that I think of it. When people supported the movement, nothing changed in the US other than people feeling a little more...99%????
Actually, the best part about this movement is that it is taking risks, busting peoples bubbles, and shaking up people from their long coma. But obviously some of you like to be dimwits. Keep waiting for nothing.
.....uh.....nothing.....nothing really, now that I think of it. When people supported the movement, nothing changed in the US other than people feeling a little more...99%????
Actually, the best part about this movement is that it is taking risks, busting peoples bubbles, and shaking up people from their long coma. But obviously some of you like to be dimwits. Keep waiting for nothing.
15
@7, I wish Seattle's anarchists would commit mass suicide...somewhere in Asia, or Arizona, or someplace other than here. Never have I felt more supportive of the average beat cop.
"Comments on masculinity" sounds ultra-mature; I wonder what they actually said.
"Comments on masculinity" sounds ultra-mature; I wonder what they actually said.
16
As they passed by the bar where I work, one of them grabbed our sandwich board off the curb and hurled it into the street. The whole group just seemed to be so agro...
17
Idiots. Not to say there isn't plenty to be upset at Seattle police about (http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Attor…), but no one will ever listen to someone stupid enough to have an "All cops are bastards" sign.
19
An active group of traveling "anarchists", with their attendant provocateurs, supported by a teeny tiny group of stupid local idealists does not make up OWS. It may be that the structure of OWS is too easily co-opted by the stupid and the undercover operatives, but in any case these aren't representative of the people who have been the driving force, or had been.
And yes, with the torches I kept expecting to see a tall white faced man in top and tails with a caption saying he was singing "Puttin' On The Ritz!" Hilarious self parody by these "protestors".
And yes, with the torches I kept expecting to see a tall white faced man in top and tails with a caption saying he was singing "Puttin' On The Ritz!" Hilarious self parody by these "protestors".
20
"travelling anarchists" ooooh when o when did we hear that the last time...? Oh right around 2000/2001, everywhere (The US, France, Northern Europe, Russia).
There are no travelling anarchist packs who fill up demonstrations. Seattle is big enough to have a steady stream of anarchists on its own and a steady stream of anarchists to cover the entire spectrum of what that word means ... all the way down to "angry kid with little media sense"
This is what happens when people get pissed off, they respond. That response is different depending on the person and some people think that
a) a demonstration is always good.
b) Im fucking furious so lets bring torches and scream things at them.
Since a demonstration is either a show of force or a populist form of media meeting means that you either need to have an actuall physical goal with it OR it needs to be trimmed to the media. This was obviously neither.
Some kids have their first run in with cops and they get shocked and furious and do things like this. This pops up the other end if they have read allot of Bakunin as teens.
What amazes me is that people (demonstrators and bystanders) seem to miss that demonstrations are actually quite hopeful events, even supportive when they are aimed at for example the police. The hope, no matter how "hostile" it was (its just damn torches) is that someone, higher up, will listen and say "damn those kids are furious, something must have happened. Lets help".
There are no travelling anarchist packs who fill up demonstrations. Seattle is big enough to have a steady stream of anarchists on its own and a steady stream of anarchists to cover the entire spectrum of what that word means ... all the way down to "angry kid with little media sense"
This is what happens when people get pissed off, they respond. That response is different depending on the person and some people think that
a) a demonstration is always good.
b) Im fucking furious so lets bring torches and scream things at them.
Since a demonstration is either a show of force or a populist form of media meeting means that you either need to have an actuall physical goal with it OR it needs to be trimmed to the media. This was obviously neither.
Some kids have their first run in with cops and they get shocked and furious and do things like this. This pops up the other end if they have read allot of Bakunin as teens.
What amazes me is that people (demonstrators and bystanders) seem to miss that demonstrations are actually quite hopeful events, even supportive when they are aimed at for example the police. The hope, no matter how "hostile" it was (its just damn torches) is that someone, higher up, will listen and say "damn those kids are furious, something must have happened. Lets help".
23
well congratulations, girls.
you are slowly finally belatedly coming to realize what Real America knew about OWS on Day 1.
you are slowly finally belatedly coming to realize what Real America knew about OWS on Day 1.
24
@16, I like how you forget to mention the people who grabbed the sign and brought it back to place it in front of your bar. There were a few provocateurs who did what you mentioned, and a LOT more of the marchers in the back replacing everything. Those few people who did what you mention do NOT represent all of us. Nor do we let them get away with it. It's fine to not like OS, to speak out against it, fine, we disagree, but don't play it like Fox News and misrepresent the facts. I have a feeling that you SHOULD be better than that.
@20, I don't know if my parents are proud of me, but I have a feeling my uncle would be proud of me if he were still alive. He was shot twice, to the head and chest, point blank, when he was unarmed, and even the officer did not believe him to have been committing a crime. Oh yeah, and he's white (the fact that this is surprising, lends credence to the possibility that this may happen much more often to minorities, check the numbers, as well as police resources devoted to "high crime" areas). The march was supposed to be a place of healing, and a group effort to demand accountability. Some of us may demonstrate that in different ways, but until you understand someone's viewpoint for how they feel about the institution of police, maybe you should just keep your fat mouth shut. You're an ignorant and angry person who doesn't even want to admit their own prejudices.
@20, I don't know if my parents are proud of me, but I have a feeling my uncle would be proud of me if he were still alive. He was shot twice, to the head and chest, point blank, when he was unarmed, and even the officer did not believe him to have been committing a crime. Oh yeah, and he's white (the fact that this is surprising, lends credence to the possibility that this may happen much more often to minorities, check the numbers, as well as police resources devoted to "high crime" areas). The march was supposed to be a place of healing, and a group effort to demand accountability. Some of us may demonstrate that in different ways, but until you understand someone's viewpoint for how they feel about the institution of police, maybe you should just keep your fat mouth shut. You're an ignorant and angry person who doesn't even want to admit their own prejudices.
25
im pretty sure the face and eye coverings are for safety as the cops have been pretty trigger happy lately with the pepper spray.
as for the torches.....i dont understand it but i dont think the fact that they had them makes their message any less valid.
as for the torches.....i dont understand it but i dont think the fact that they had them makes their message any less valid.
26
Glad this was a small crowd, the larger they are, the easier it is for chicken shit anarchists to have the cover they need to fuck things up. Congratulations Occupy Seattle, you let children completely hijack the movement from you.
29
None of them saw either of the two 2011 acclaimed documentaries, "If a Tree Falls" or "Better This World" about infiltrators and informers in anarchist movements? Or read the numerous articles about the tactics of the FBI and HSA in the past year. The Stranger's articles about the "Speakeasy Five"? The charismatic new friend wanting to "take it to the next level" is almost always an government agent or a snitch trying to get out of a drug or fraud conviction.
Every person advocating "real action" or take on the cops should be treated to serious scrutiny.The people involved in both Occupy and these anarchist groups have no excuse to be unaware and not adjust their tactics to avoid a set up.
Every person advocating "real action" or take on the cops should be treated to serious scrutiny.The people involved in both Occupy and these anarchist groups have no excuse to be unaware and not adjust their tactics to avoid a set up.
30
If your goal is to express your rage, mission accomplished.
If your goal was to enlist more than your own tight knit little group, complete and total failure. You probably just pushed a lot of fence sitters back to supporting the cops, by scaring them into seeing what the true face of anarchy really looks like: violent and willing to destroy. A lot of people will, even with misgivings, support police.
Trying to explain something to a rage-o-holic is tough. But I'll try. You guys make what the asshat cops do seem justified. If you had any brains instead of just baby balls, you'd knock it off and come up with better, more clever, more inclusive ways of protesting.
But you are the same feeble minded little f-wits that took over Occupy. Violent, petulant and probably badly parented children whose parents probably washed their hands of them years ago.
You don't speak for the 99%, you speak for yourselves, and only yourselves. Rage all you want, but you are not helping the cause you say you support.
If your goal was to enlist more than your own tight knit little group, complete and total failure. You probably just pushed a lot of fence sitters back to supporting the cops, by scaring them into seeing what the true face of anarchy really looks like: violent and willing to destroy. A lot of people will, even with misgivings, support police.
Trying to explain something to a rage-o-holic is tough. But I'll try. You guys make what the asshat cops do seem justified. If you had any brains instead of just baby balls, you'd knock it off and come up with better, more clever, more inclusive ways of protesting.
But you are the same feeble minded little f-wits that took over Occupy. Violent, petulant and probably badly parented children whose parents probably washed their hands of them years ago.
You don't speak for the 99%, you speak for yourselves, and only yourselves. Rage all you want, but you are not helping the cause you say you support.
31
Where's the gender analysis here? I am willing to bet that a vast majority of the people using these aggressive tactics are of the testosterone-fuled variety. Violence, intimidation, good/evil rhetoric - all tools of patriarchy. The fact that there's no dialogue about this says a lot about the status of this "movement" right now.
32
I love performance art. As it's said, "If it's not useful than it is art. This definitely adds a little texture to things.
33
The sane Occupiers have gone home for the winter, leaving behind the hard-core anarchists whose only motive is hate for everything.
34
@6: You mean there's something positive about this march? You're going to have to hunt to find what that is.
35
Seems like only yesterday Slog and Holden were calling this a Revolution and were providing daily updates from the front lines of the 'struggle'. Now they finally see what the rest of us see - a bunch of malcontent white kids and angry queer anarchists, aka 'the usually suspects', running around filming each other.Â
50 fucking white kids out on Cap Hill on a Saturday night with torches. Whoop dee fucking doo.
BTW I see Ian Finklewanker in there, resident angry homo out there blaming Reagan for HIV (which I find amassing since it was under Reagan that I figured out how not to get HIV). Anyone ask him if he found Jennifer Pox's runaway fetus yet? Where are the hospital papers Ian Finklebumbster?
Stick a fork in it, it's done. It's an election year, time when the adults make decisions.
50 fucking white kids out on Cap Hill on a Saturday night with torches. Whoop dee fucking doo.
BTW I see Ian Finklewanker in there, resident angry homo out there blaming Reagan for HIV (which I find amassing since it was under Reagan that I figured out how not to get HIV). Anyone ask him if he found Jennifer Pox's runaway fetus yet? Where are the hospital papers Ian Finklebumbster?
Stick a fork in it, it's done. It's an election year, time when the adults make decisions.
36
Angry white, male, spoiled brats are angry. Ho hum. And for the other 99.9999% of us, life goes on.
38
How many people here witnessed the march? How many are only going off of Trujillo's inaccurate account? (And, you know, if you consider yourself a photojournalist, don't publish blurred to fuck photos.) For better and more accurate coverage - and much better pics - check out CHS blog's account: http://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2012/0…
The comments made to the police that Trujillo and Holdfuck chose to highlight were primarily made by an older gentleman who had recently had his home foreclosed on. He wasn't wearing black.
The comments made to the police that Trujillo and Holdfuck chose to highlight were primarily made by an older gentleman who had recently had his home foreclosed on. He wasn't wearing black.
39
The comments seem to articulate the standard white liberal response to any actions, whether symbolic or serious, which are born of clear outrage. I, for one, as a Seattle native and Capitol Hill resident, am very happy at least somebody, even a small group of our population, is willing to demonstrate visibly against what most of us understand to be true... the SPD is rouge law enforcement agency which needs to clear house from top down and instigate new training and oversight measures. While I appreciate Dominic's reporting, I find his tone is often shrill and validates the hippy-dippy-passive -resistance point of view. Just as when Rodney King riots were happening, a part of me is proud of my fellow citizens who were so understandably outraged as to actually take to the streets and cause disruption. Ian Birk will never face any charges for what was clearly a cold-blooded murder. Are we ok with that? Srsly? The hubbub about the protestors wearing bandanas is hardly menacing compared to the hoards of riot cops in their badge-less, storm trooper wear. I love this action of the OS... very poetic... a torch holding citizen mob descending on the police station to demand accountability. LOVE IT and KUDOS to all the participants from someone who regrets not being able to join y'all in this time.
40
Another report: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/lo…
@5: The people you saw taking pictures were, like, media. Both external and internal (e.g., livestream). We're sorry that we did something visible enough to engender media interest. Sorry about that.
@5: The people you saw taking pictures were, like, media. Both external and internal (e.g., livestream). We're sorry that we did something visible enough to engender media interest. Sorry about that.
41
@39 - It is a truism that meeting hate and violence with hate and violence only serves to damage your cause with people who abhor hate and violence.
43
"revolution is like taking a piss, sometimes it's not the right time, sometimes it's not the right place, but sometimes you just have to do it.". Lizzie Borden "Born in Flames" http://m.imdb.com/title/tt0085267/
44
@ 39, when the demonstration consists solely of the usual protesting suspects, NOTHING OF WORTH IS ACCOMPLISHED. Feeling like something is being said and done ≠ something really being said and done.
Once these people grow up, learn to voice their anger without needless antagonism, develop the bravery to show their faces, and act like citizens instead of a mob looking for a riot, then they'll have an effect. As it is, everyone who matters (the people who vote, as well as politicians and SPD brass), can safely dismiss them as having no political impact whatsoever.
Once these people grow up, learn to voice their anger without needless antagonism, develop the bravery to show their faces, and act like citizens instead of a mob looking for a riot, then they'll have an effect. As it is, everyone who matters (the people who vote, as well as politicians and SPD brass), can safely dismiss them as having no political impact whatsoever.
45
Josh Trujillo should stick to taking pictures. His writing and "objectivity" suck worse than Dominic Holden's.
46
@6: Now, now, to be fair, Mr Holden isn't even using his own words here to be dismissive. He's using Josh Trujillo's words. Who's Josh Trujillo, you may ask? Some reporter? Ha, unlikely!
He's just some photographer. Probably stuck around to get his couple of shots and then took off. Hell, for all we know, *he* started shouting things at cops just to make his story more interesting.
Wouldn't put it past people like them!
He's just some photographer. Probably stuck around to get his couple of shots and then took off. Hell, for all we know, *he* started shouting things at cops just to make his story more interesting.
Wouldn't put it past people like them!
49
Maybe Ian Awesome will show up in this thread to finally present us with the evidence of Jennifer Fox's miscarriage.
50
@44:
Some people wear bandannas for security reasons. They may be targeted by the SPD, which has been taking picture and trying to snatch and grab some of the more visible people in the movement (the people they see as "leaders"). They may face retaliation at work.
Some people wear them as an aid for when we're attacked by the police with pepper spray and gas.
Some people wear them because it was really fucking cold outside.
Assuming that they're wearing them to hide criminal activity is really ignorant. But you'd know what would reduce the number bandannas? If you'd get off the internet and bothered to march yourself.
@47: It wasn't.
Some people wear bandannas for security reasons. They may be targeted by the SPD, which has been taking picture and trying to snatch and grab some of the more visible people in the movement (the people they see as "leaders"). They may face retaliation at work.
Some people wear them as an aid for when we're attacked by the police with pepper spray and gas.
Some people wear them because it was really fucking cold outside.
Assuming that they're wearing them to hide criminal activity is really ignorant. But you'd know what would reduce the number bandannas? If you'd get off the internet and bothered to march yourself.
@47: It wasn't.
51
@47: It wasn't."
You're right, it wasn't 99%; it couldn't be with only the 30-40 odd morons I saw marching by. I think I saw one 'person of color'. THat would have made it maybe 96% white.
Call me crazy, but wouldn't a well organized rally against police violence would be at least 50% non-white?
"may be targeted by the SPD, which has been taking picture and trying to snatch and grab some of the more visible people in the movement"
I hear they dump the bodies in Puget Sound. Seriously, watch your back, it's good you're paranoid, everyone is watching you.
You're right, it wasn't 99%; it couldn't be with only the 30-40 odd morons I saw marching by. I think I saw one 'person of color'. THat would have made it maybe 96% white.
Call me crazy, but wouldn't a well organized rally against police violence would be at least 50% non-white?
"may be targeted by the SPD, which has been taking picture and trying to snatch and grab some of the more visible people in the movement"
I hear they dump the bodies in Puget Sound. Seriously, watch your back, it's good you're paranoid, everyone is watching you.
52
@ 50, that just reaffirms my belief. "Security from the police?" If they're otherwise law-abiding citizens, they have little to fear from extra police scrutiny. Further, if they make a name for themselves as critics of the police, that fame will earn them a layer of protection from that. That would also help at work.
The problem is that this type of thing is completely counterproductive. People who are NOT part of these groups see bandanas and think "trouble makers," not "righteous citizens" because these people are known to hide their faces so as to escape arrest when they take part in a riot. Even if that's not fair. Why? Because that's the "brand" they earned. (I realize using a marketing term is likely to make you think I'm just "part of the system" or something, but hear me out.)
If these protesters want real reform, they need to understand that the impression they make on average people matters, because the protesters are few and the average people are many. The police and politicians respond to the many, and if the many dismiss the protesters as kooks, if not criminals, NOTHING they do will EVER matter. If anything it reinforces the status quo, because even after all the bad things they do came to light, average people will trust cops before they trust society dropouts with hidden faces.
"Really fucking cold?" No, people wear SCARVES for that. "Protect from gas?" No gas masks do that.
Have you ever seen footage of Birmingham in 1963? How different would the protesters there have looked if they were wearing full rain gear and gas masks? If you expect trouble, chances are you're looking for it.
I'm sorry you believe that you "did something." You didn't. You really, really didn't.
The problem is that this type of thing is completely counterproductive. People who are NOT part of these groups see bandanas and think "trouble makers," not "righteous citizens" because these people are known to hide their faces so as to escape arrest when they take part in a riot. Even if that's not fair. Why? Because that's the "brand" they earned. (I realize using a marketing term is likely to make you think I'm just "part of the system" or something, but hear me out.)
If these protesters want real reform, they need to understand that the impression they make on average people matters, because the protesters are few and the average people are many. The police and politicians respond to the many, and if the many dismiss the protesters as kooks, if not criminals, NOTHING they do will EVER matter. If anything it reinforces the status quo, because even after all the bad things they do came to light, average people will trust cops before they trust society dropouts with hidden faces.
"Really fucking cold?" No, people wear SCARVES for that. "Protect from gas?" No gas masks do that.
Have you ever seen footage of Birmingham in 1963? How different would the protesters there have looked if they were wearing full rain gear and gas masks? If you expect trouble, chances are you're looking for it.
I'm sorry you believe that you "did something." You didn't. You really, really didn't.
53
41
Very True.
And it is a truism that meeting hate and bigotry with hate and bigotry only serves to damage your cause with people who abhor hate and bigotry.
Thus when Danny responds in kind he just becomes part of the cesspool of hate and bigotry.
And Slog cheers it on.....
Very True.
And it is a truism that meeting hate and bigotry with hate and bigotry only serves to damage your cause with people who abhor hate and bigotry.
Thus when Danny responds in kind he just becomes part of the cesspool of hate and bigotry.
And Slog cheers it on.....
55
@44 I agree that this type of demonstration is unlikely to influence public policy. On the other hand it allows the participants to feel important and gives the rest of us something to discuss on an otherwise uneventful Sunday afternoon.
56
Interesting contrast tomorrow being Martin Luther King Day.
Reminds me of all the protests that he led with protestors carrying torches while wearing bandanas.
Oh, that is right...he didn't.
It is the reason the Civil Rights Movement was so successful, while asshats breaking shit while carrying torches will just be...asshats.
Reminds me of all the protests that he led with protestors carrying torches while wearing bandanas.
Oh, that is right...he didn't.
It is the reason the Civil Rights Movement was so successful, while asshats breaking shit while carrying torches will just be...asshats.
59
Torches? They're police officers not Nosferatu. I understand being pissed off and angry with Seattle police and wanting accountability and reform but please behave like an adult and leave the theatrics and abuse by the wayside. The only way to get your point across is by acting like a grown up.
60
@59 But "all cops are bastards", ergo these people aren't interested in 'reform'. Therefore they are irrelevant but damn good entertainment ripe for ridicule.
61
The torches were a truly wonderful and inspired touch. I think it would've been really grand if they all wore red shoes and yellow ascots.
62
Ian Awesome Finklewanker, where's the evidence of the police atrocity against Jennifer Pox? Wouldn't THIS be the perfect time to drag that sordid piece of SPD 'oppression' out?
63
Yeah 57 - I expected at least some misogynist comments about "reverse discrimination" or something based on other attempts to bring gender analysis to SLOG. Huh.
64
The torches are a nice touch. The illogical all cops are bastards is lacking though. Although one could argue that since cops are allowing their own to be dicks they are complicit. Still makes no sense to draw with such a broad brush. I'd like to see more torches. Beautiful images.
65
I took video of the whole event, watch it and make up your own minds:
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/19768417
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/19770199
Want my take? Here you go:
http://levinetech.net/node/93
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/19768417
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/19770199
Want my take? Here you go:
http://levinetech.net/node/93
67
@65 Great video, good to see so many white people out on a Saturday night, taking a break from Battlestar Galactica reruns, getting 'real' with 'da homeys' at 23rd and UNion. I don't think I've ever seen that many white people on that corner. Looks almost gentrified.
BTW did you talk to the folks at the Cheese Steak shop about the kind of actual violence they have to deal with 99.9999% of the time? Guess what, it's not the cops who are the problem at that corner.
PS. Loved the McDonalds ad at the beginning of your video. STick it to the man….and get extra fries with it.
BTW did you talk to the folks at the Cheese Steak shop about the kind of actual violence they have to deal with 99.9999% of the time? Guess what, it's not the cops who are the problem at that corner.
PS. Loved the McDonalds ad at the beginning of your video. STick it to the man….and get extra fries with it.
68
@ 65, thanks for sharing. Now, let me ask you something.
You describe a scene where the cops let the protesters do their thing and disperse, and then ask why the policed didn't let protesters do their thing and disperse.
Um, what?
Also, do you understand that the police can't simply take the word of someone wielding a torch that they won't use it to set something or someone on fire? Especially if the coordinators didn't communicate with police and fire department officials ahead of time?
Do you realize that bandana-clad groups have a record of property destruction, and that they should be prepared for that when a bandana-clad group shows up on their doorstep? Hell, you described a scene where some marcher almost set a couch on fire. (Yeah, other marchers prevented it, but it still underscores the need for police to be on the alert.) Pointing to preparation for trouble as evidence of overreaction, intimidation, or excessive police behavior is just one more reason why people outside of this group don't take it seriously.
You describe a scene where the cops let the protesters do their thing and disperse, and then ask why the policed didn't let protesters do their thing and disperse.
Um, what?
Also, do you understand that the police can't simply take the word of someone wielding a torch that they won't use it to set something or someone on fire? Especially if the coordinators didn't communicate with police and fire department officials ahead of time?
Do you realize that bandana-clad groups have a record of property destruction, and that they should be prepared for that when a bandana-clad group shows up on their doorstep? Hell, you described a scene where some marcher almost set a couch on fire. (Yeah, other marchers prevented it, but it still underscores the need for police to be on the alert.) Pointing to preparation for trouble as evidence of overreaction, intimidation, or excessive police behavior is just one more reason why people outside of this group don't take it seriously.
69
I'm all for free speech. I'm all for holding police to account for breaking the law and abusing authority.
But a large angry group of people carrying a open flames through the neighborhood in which I live, consisting largely of many old wooden buildings close together, does not get any sympathy from me. Seriously guys, use some common fucking sense.
But a large angry group of people carrying a open flames through the neighborhood in which I live, consisting largely of many old wooden buildings close together, does not get any sympathy from me. Seriously guys, use some common fucking sense.
70
"some of you are dimwits"
When you can barely rustle up 40 bored white kids for an anti-police rally on Saturday night on Cap Hill, you might want to be careful who you call "dimwits".
When you can barely rustle up 40 bored white kids for an anti-police rally on Saturday night on Cap Hill, you might want to be careful who you call "dimwits".
73
re: Texas Evangelicals endorsing Santorum....
Actually this is good for Mitt.
Santorum isn't going to win the nomination but the longer he hangs in there the longer the fundy vote is splintered.
And Santorum has been smart enough not to bad mouth Mitt.
Had the Texas gathering gotten behind Newt it would have been more problematic for Romney.
As it is, Mitt gets the nomination and Santorum and all his fundy support fill out the ticket.
A Romney/Santorum ticket actually has pretty broad Center-Right appeal.
And Santorum's 'google' problem is no problem at all.
Anyone who will be voting for Romney/Santorum will see it as a total disgusting dick move.
In fact, if anyone in that demographic has ever heard of Danny (not many....) the fact that Danny hates Santorum will be all the reason they need to support him.
You girls misjudge how the google "problem" will play if it ever reaches the light of day:
associating someone's name with poop is a third grade stunt. literally. sure you apes don't get that, and see it as really witty and cool, but- no.
the two facts anyone/everyone in Real America will carry away from the 'google' cleverness are:
1- Feces? Damn that's disgusting. What filthy perverts....
and
2- Wow that Danny is a malicious retarded little Prick- his mother must've snorted a buttload of crack when she was pregnant.
and if the 'google' thing actually seeds the light of day conservatives will force Obama to repudiate it as an inappropriate dick head stunt and there you will be with the Chosen One forced to confess that Danny is an immature Prick.
so, keep it up, every link takes us one step closer to what will be for Obama and Danny a precious special kind of humiliation.....
More...
Actually this is good for Mitt.
Santorum isn't going to win the nomination but the longer he hangs in there the longer the fundy vote is splintered.
And Santorum has been smart enough not to bad mouth Mitt.
Had the Texas gathering gotten behind Newt it would have been more problematic for Romney.
As it is, Mitt gets the nomination and Santorum and all his fundy support fill out the ticket.
A Romney/Santorum ticket actually has pretty broad Center-Right appeal.
And Santorum's 'google' problem is no problem at all.
Anyone who will be voting for Romney/Santorum will see it as a total disgusting dick move.
In fact, if anyone in that demographic has ever heard of Danny (not many....) the fact that Danny hates Santorum will be all the reason they need to support him.
You girls misjudge how the google "problem" will play if it ever reaches the light of day:
associating someone's name with poop is a third grade stunt. literally. sure you apes don't get that, and see it as really witty and cool, but- no.
the two facts anyone/everyone in Real America will carry away from the 'google' cleverness are:
1- Feces? Damn that's disgusting. What filthy perverts....
and
2- Wow that Danny is a malicious retarded little Prick- his mother must've snorted a buttload of crack when she was pregnant.
and if the 'google' thing actually seeds the light of day conservatives will force Obama to repudiate it as an inappropriate dick head stunt and there you will be with the Chosen One forced to confess that Danny is an immature Prick.
so, keep it up, every link takes us one step closer to what will be for Obama and Danny a precious special kind of humiliation.....
74
@68
>You describe a scene where the cops let the protesters do their thing and disperse, and then ask why the policed didn't let protesters do their thing and disperse.
>
>Um, what?
The police setup barricades about a half a block from from the East Precinct and were dressed in riot gear. There was no riot to disperse, which is why I think it was an overreaction. It would have been easy to have police on bikes in front of the precinct, not in riot gear behind barricades a half a block away, to go in if someone did something stupid.
>Pointing to preparation for trouble as evidence of overreaction, intimidation, or excessive police behavior is just one more reason why people outside of this group don't take it seriously.
I think the police overreacted, but I thanked them for not being as incredibly stupid as the police in Oakland were last night. The evidence for the crimes of some members of the police were wasn't in how they acted last night, it was in the DOJ report on the SPD and it was outlined by the victims and friends of those victimized by members of the police during the speak-outs.
The DOJ report was very clear: most of the crimes against citizens by the police are being done by a small minority of police officers. We can't allow this to continue. The damage they are doing to the fabric of our society is far worse than a few people throwing garbage cans into the street.
>You describe a scene where the cops let the protesters do their thing and disperse, and then ask why the policed didn't let protesters do their thing and disperse.
>
>Um, what?
The police setup barricades about a half a block from from the East Precinct and were dressed in riot gear. There was no riot to disperse, which is why I think it was an overreaction. It would have been easy to have police on bikes in front of the precinct, not in riot gear behind barricades a half a block away, to go in if someone did something stupid.
>Pointing to preparation for trouble as evidence of overreaction, intimidation, or excessive police behavior is just one more reason why people outside of this group don't take it seriously.
I think the police overreacted, but I thanked them for not being as incredibly stupid as the police in Oakland were last night. The evidence for the crimes of some members of the police were wasn't in how they acted last night, it was in the DOJ report on the SPD and it was outlined by the victims and friends of those victimized by members of the police during the speak-outs.
The DOJ report was very clear: most of the crimes against citizens by the police are being done by a small minority of police officers. We can't allow this to continue. The damage they are doing to the fabric of our society is far worse than a few people throwing garbage cans into the street.
75
Sometimes someone has to pay an exorbitant price to uphold the majesty of the law.
--from The Turning Point
76
@74- It seems unfair to declare yourselves pro-violence then expect the cops to just stand there with bikes.
78
@2: Actually, 1% of 99% is %0.99. Your comment should have read:
"1% of the 99% is ruining it for the other 98.01%."
You're welcome.
"1% of the 99% is ruining it for the other 98.01%."
You're welcome.
79
strange, this "no comment" thing, when comments about occupy were so constant for a time. I remember the beginning comments pretty vividly. How about having the cajones to follow through?
80
@78
I've been waiting for some asshat to come along and fall into this trap.
The first problem is that @2 may be referring to portions of the full 100%, rather than percentages of the 99%, in which case "98.01%" would be quite wrong.
If instead @2 is dividing the 99% in the manner you have assumed, then to three significant digits, 99% of 99% is 98.0%, and only two significant digits were chosen for display. And those two digits were correct. "98.00%" would have been incorrect; "98%" is not.
I've been waiting for some asshat to come along and fall into this trap.
The first problem is that @2 may be referring to portions of the full 100%, rather than percentages of the 99%, in which case "98.01%" would be quite wrong.
If instead @2 is dividing the 99% in the manner you have assumed, then to three significant digits, 99% of 99% is 98.0%, and only two significant digits were chosen for display. And those two digits were correct. "98.00%" would have been incorrect; "98%" is not.
81
@79
The phrase was not "no comment," it was "no fucking comment," which means something entirely different.
Particularly in this context. Dominic Holden's brief post here is a follow-up to a News article and another follow-up blog post in which there is certainly no lack of commentary from the author.
The phrase was not "no comment," it was "no fucking comment," which means something entirely different.
Particularly in this context. Dominic Holden's brief post here is a follow-up to a News article and another follow-up blog post in which there is certainly no lack of commentary from the author.
82
@ 74,
Are you making this judgment from a position of knowledge or experience? That is, do you know how to control a crowd and prevent (not just contain) a riot? If not, what is the basis for this conclusion? How do you think the police should have prepared for the possibility of trouble, if dressing up for it wasn't appropriate?
The rest of your comment doesn't address anything I brought up. I was speaking to your reports about police action last night. I know that SPD has problems. They've been well covered here. But each action taken by the SPD is to be assessed individually. And, as there were no arrests, no batons swung, no tear gas deployed, and no trouble, it seems that there's nothing to criticize. Unless, again, you can show how being prepared for a riot when there's a risk of it is an overreaction.
The police setup barricades about a half a block from from the East Precinct and were dressed in riot gear. There was no riot to disperse, which is why I think it was an overreaction. It would have been easy to have police on bikes in front of the precinct, not in riot gear behind barricades a half a block away, to go in if someone did something stupid.
Are you making this judgment from a position of knowledge or experience? That is, do you know how to control a crowd and prevent (not just contain) a riot? If not, what is the basis for this conclusion? How do you think the police should have prepared for the possibility of trouble, if dressing up for it wasn't appropriate?
The rest of your comment doesn't address anything I brought up. I was speaking to your reports about police action last night. I know that SPD has problems. They've been well covered here. But each action taken by the SPD is to be assessed individually. And, as there were no arrests, no batons swung, no tear gas deployed, and no trouble, it seems that there's nothing to criticize. Unless, again, you can show how being prepared for a riot when there's a risk of it is an overreaction.
83
bellelaide, jt:
I have an idea! Instead of bitching about the lack of gender-issues discussion, let's actually discuss gender issues!
It seems to me that Occupy participants concerned primarily with violence against women were marginalized within the movement months ago, despite earnest efforts to include them and address their concerns.
And I think this marginalization was not at all deliberate or political, but rather structural. And I think the structural problems in this case have little to do with the patriarchal assumptions and systems that so often work to marginalize women's issues.
I'm sure everyone remembers the incidents of rape and sexual assault at OWS sites. These events have of course been politicized. But rather than wade into that swamp of commentary, in which neither OWS's supporters nor its detractors have acquitted themselves particularly well, I'd like to take a look at OWS's practical (rather than rhetorical) response to these incidents of violence against women within some OWS sites.
OWS had at least three practical responses. The first was to set up rape-crisis counselling units within Occupy sites. The second was the establishment of women's-only sections of the camp. The third was to refer victims to the local police.
The women's-only tent areas are arguably isolating, and I'd note in passing that they're inconsistent with the core "no borders" tenet of OWS political philosophy. But it's that third response that's most revealing.
Not because it contrasts so obviously with the anti-police sentiment on display in Occupy Seattle these days; at the time, the cop-hater faction within OWS was a nearly invisible fringe element.
What police referral for sexual violence reveals is something larger: the internal structure of OWS has no justice system.
That is not to say that it has no sense of justice — far from it — I am only saying that internally, Occupy has no means of redress for injustice after it has occurred. Internally, OWS has no consistent practical response to a person who has committed sexual assault (or any other injustice).
Internally, there might be some autonomous shaming of OWS participants who do unjust things, but this has no effect if the person in question does not agree that they have done something unjust, or if that person simply has no shame about their actions. OWS participants can encourage an individual to leave the movement or the site, but they can not force anyone to do so. For punitive justice, the prefigurative society of OWS relies on the external, hierarchical society that it otherwise opposes.
The structure of OWS implicitly marginalizes anyone whose interests include consistent penalties for perpetrators of unjust acts. It is not patriarchal, and it is not misogynist. But nor can it offer justice for victims of sexual assault.
More...
I have an idea! Instead of bitching about the lack of gender-issues discussion, let's actually discuss gender issues!
It seems to me that Occupy participants concerned primarily with violence against women were marginalized within the movement months ago, despite earnest efforts to include them and address their concerns.
And I think this marginalization was not at all deliberate or political, but rather structural. And I think the structural problems in this case have little to do with the patriarchal assumptions and systems that so often work to marginalize women's issues.
I'm sure everyone remembers the incidents of rape and sexual assault at OWS sites. These events have of course been politicized. But rather than wade into that swamp of commentary, in which neither OWS's supporters nor its detractors have acquitted themselves particularly well, I'd like to take a look at OWS's practical (rather than rhetorical) response to these incidents of violence against women within some OWS sites.
OWS had at least three practical responses. The first was to set up rape-crisis counselling units within Occupy sites. The second was the establishment of women's-only sections of the camp. The third was to refer victims to the local police.
The women's-only tent areas are arguably isolating, and I'd note in passing that they're inconsistent with the core "no borders" tenet of OWS political philosophy. But it's that third response that's most revealing.
Not because it contrasts so obviously with the anti-police sentiment on display in Occupy Seattle these days; at the time, the cop-hater faction within OWS was a nearly invisible fringe element.
What police referral for sexual violence reveals is something larger: the internal structure of OWS has no justice system.
That is not to say that it has no sense of justice — far from it — I am only saying that internally, Occupy has no means of redress for injustice after it has occurred. Internally, OWS has no consistent practical response to a person who has committed sexual assault (or any other injustice).
Internally, there might be some autonomous shaming of OWS participants who do unjust things, but this has no effect if the person in question does not agree that they have done something unjust, or if that person simply has no shame about their actions. OWS participants can encourage an individual to leave the movement or the site, but they can not force anyone to do so. For punitive justice, the prefigurative society of OWS relies on the external, hierarchical society that it otherwise opposes.
The structure of OWS implicitly marginalizes anyone whose interests include consistent penalties for perpetrators of unjust acts. It is not patriarchal, and it is not misogynist. But nor can it offer justice for victims of sexual assault.
84
Because nothing says " we have a well thought-out strategy" like a crowd of torch bearing peasants.
85
@ 84,
Hey, it worked in France in 1789. Maybe the 1% should start handing out cupcakes or something.
Hey, it worked in France in 1789. Maybe the 1% should start handing out cupcakes or something.
87
Congrats to OS for officially becoming Seattle Dirtbag Fiesta 2011-12. Not that it wasn't already, but the Dirtbag Mafia of Seattle always finds a way to Make Itself Known. Hey, we see you, we hear you, and we once again realize: Yes, you are the Dirtiest Dirtbags of Dirtbagia.
Excellent work, golf clap for all of you!
Excellent work, golf clap for all of you!
88
There's a line from the movie "Reds" when Louise Bryant (Diane Keaton) gets fed up with John Reed (Warren Beatty) and says (paraphrasing) "Did it ever occur to you that the American working man doesn't want YOUR revolution?"
These jokers need to study Reed's, Martin Luther King's, and Gandhi's lives and get back to the rest of us (you know, the 99%) when they've grown up and stopped acting like 3-year-olds.
These jokers need to study Reed's, Martin Luther King's, and Gandhi's lives and get back to the rest of us (you know, the 99%) when they've grown up and stopped acting like 3-year-olds.
89
@83 Do the OWSers really oppose the external hierarchal society? They may say so, but I think what most of them really want is a government handout to pay off their student loans.
90
@89
Regardless of what they might ultimately want, and pot-shots aside, the internal structure they're using is stringently anti-hierarchical.
The response to structural criticism of OWS has to date run along the lines of "this is only the beginning," and "there's a lot of work to be done," and "you can't expect a fully functioning system right out of the gate." But I think some of the bigger structural problems are foundational, rather than just a matter of implementation detail.
Regardless of what they might ultimately want, and pot-shots aside, the internal structure they're using is stringently anti-hierarchical.
The response to structural criticism of OWS has to date run along the lines of "this is only the beginning," and "there's a lot of work to be done," and "you can't expect a fully functioning system right out of the gate." But I think some of the bigger structural problems are foundational, rather than just a matter of implementation detail.
91
Did it, though? Four years later, the country was under Robespierre's control. The government that replaced him ended in a coup after another few years, resulting eventually in a military dictatorship.
I guess if by "it worked" you mean "one set of undemocratic rulers was replaced with another, several times over," you have a point. But if you mean "the people of France ended the rule of the rich and powerful over the commoner," then, um, go read some news about present-day France.
Hey, it worked in France in 1789.
Did it, though? Four years later, the country was under Robespierre's control. The government that replaced him ended in a coup after another few years, resulting eventually in a military dictatorship.
I guess if by "it worked" you mean "one set of undemocratic rulers was replaced with another, several times over," you have a point. But if you mean "the people of France ended the rule of the rich and powerful over the commoner," then, um, go read some news about present-day France.
92
I hear you, Dominic, about the "no comment" thing, and I certainly hear all the chatter! Such a sensitive chap... See you tomorrow.
93
Ironic that this 'protest' was held on Martin Luther King's birthday. Non-violence is hard work. It requires maturity, patience and courage. The SPD needs a big overhaul, but a display of juvenile taunting behind bandanas will make no difference in SPD culture or tactics.
94
@41 The people who abhor hate and violence so much that they violently hate those who fight hate and violence with more hate and violence are the same people who SIT HOME AND DO PRECISELY FUCK ALL ABOUT ANY OF IT. That's like saying you wish the fucking Continental Army had just tried to, you know, talk it out with the British who -- much like certain police -- were KILLING CIVILIANS WITHOUT DUE CAUSE.
There were, of course, hundreds of thousands of Revolutionary-era Americans -- by some accounts, a significant majority of people, and not even just Loyalists -- who didn't participate in the whole rebellion thing. We don't call them patriots or founding fathers. In fact, we don't call them a goddamn thing, because we don't fucking bother talking about them AT ALL, because they didn't accomplish shit, while the people that DID SOMETHING accomplished a FUCKING COUNTRY.
Get off your fucking ass or shut the fuck up. Armchair curmudgeoning is like trying to shit on the ceiling. All it does is cover you in shit.
There were, of course, hundreds of thousands of Revolutionary-era Americans -- by some accounts, a significant majority of people, and not even just Loyalists -- who didn't participate in the whole rebellion thing. We don't call them patriots or founding fathers. In fact, we don't call them a goddamn thing, because we don't fucking bother talking about them AT ALL, because they didn't accomplish shit, while the people that DID SOMETHING accomplished a FUCKING COUNTRY.
Get off your fucking ass or shut the fuck up. Armchair curmudgeoning is like trying to shit on the ceiling. All it does is cover you in shit.
95
@94
Would that be the same FUCKING COUNTRY that many OWS participants would like to get rid of, in favor of a non-hierarchical society? The FUCKING COUNTRY that, just coincidentally, claims a monopoly on the legitimate use of force?
Would that be the same FUCKING COUNTRY that many OWS participants would like to get rid of, in favor of a non-hierarchical society? The FUCKING COUNTRY that, just coincidentally, claims a monopoly on the legitimate use of force?
96
Um, so, people who are legitimately angry at the police and had torches, which were obviously symbolic, protesting police abuse. What's the problem?
The only "no comment" I had was when OPD nearly killed 2 innocent, unarmed protesters a few months back. Unlike then, nobody was hurt here and everybody went home afterwards. So why are we complaining again?
The only "no comment" I had was when OPD nearly killed 2 innocent, unarmed protesters a few months back. Unlike then, nobody was hurt here and everybody went home afterwards. So why are we complaining again?
98
A bunch a black clad anarchists walking down the middle of the street wearing bandanas on their faces, yelling 'fuck the police' and waving burning torches. I guess the cops should have dressed up as fairies and sprinkled rose petals along your route.
100
@95 And "the country that OWS participants would like to get rid of." I missed the signs that said "GET RID OF AMERICA" in the OWS crowds. Yay for ideological slander! That's how the right wing wins its arguments!
101
@95 Oh, and... rule of law applied equally to everyone? That sounds like the real America to me. Not the classist clusterfuck we have today.
103
@94 In point of fact our founding father's were not particularly concerned about the British killing Americans. Remember the Boston Massacre, in which British soldiers killed five unarmed civilians? When the officer who gave the order to fire was put on trial, do you know who his defense attorney was? John Adams, our nation's second president. The way Mr. Adams saw it the British had done nothing wrong, because the people they shot were part of an unruly mob.
104
@101
If it takes you three comments to come up with a retort, I don't think I've missed the point at all. The point, as you clearly realize, is that the very violence you're praising accomplished the establishment of the very system of government that you are inveighing against today (which was actually worse then; what with the slaves and the sufferage and so on).
As for what sort of government OWS wants to live under, go look up the term "prefigurative politics," then take a look at the General Assembly, and compare it to the US system.
If it takes you three comments to come up with a retort, I don't think I've missed the point at all. The point, as you clearly realize, is that the very violence you're praising accomplished the establishment of the very system of government that you are inveighing against today (which was actually worse then; what with the slaves and the sufferage and so on).
As for what sort of government OWS wants to live under, go look up the term "prefigurative politics," then take a look at the General Assembly, and compare it to the US system.
107
@1: "I'll say shit about the police but I will proudly let everyone know I am saying it." Says the guy posting on Slog with an alias...
@105: Is generating discussion not a worthy goal in and of itself in your mind?
@105: Is generating discussion not a worthy goal in and of itself in your mind?
109
Here is a video of the march. The organizers had clear intent and executed it with non-violence. Please watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFRbS560S…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFRbS560S…
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