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News & ArtsWednesday, January 25, 2012
Religion Mao and Mars Hill
Posted by Brendan Kiley on Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 11:37 AM
Dom posted about this yesterday—someone who had an affair with a fellow congregant at Mars Hill reportedly had to sign a contract.
But when you read the terms of the contract, according to the blog Matthew Paul Turner, the folks at Mars Hill looks less to me like congregants than cultists:
Andrew will write out in detail his sexual and emotional attachment history with women and share it with XXX.
Andrew will write out in detail the chronology of events and sexual/emotional sin with K and share it with XXX and Pastor X.
Andrew will write out a list of all people he has sinned against during this timeframe, either by sexual/emotional sin, lying or deceiving, share it with XXX and develop a plan to confess sin and ask for forgiveness
It's fine if people want to be Christian or any other kind of religious: your faith is your faith and none of my businesses.
But submitting to this kind of public shaming and ritual humiliation—a Christian version of the early Maoist self-criticism and struggle sessions—is ridiculous. It's infantile. Nobody on the planet deserves that kind of submission. (Maybe God does, if you believe in that kind of thing. But certainly not a fellow human being.)
And any leader, religious or secular, who relies on this kind of tactic as a control strategy is—to use one of Pastor Driscoll's favorite words—perverse.
1
Taking a play from Scientology's book. Get the dirt while people are vulnerable (or horny). We promise, it's for your own good.
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@1: Yep. Keep a file on everyone for future reference [blackmail].
I can't believe that Mars Hill-aligned businesses like Supergenius have such a good rep in Seattle.
Oh sure, Mars Hill may loathe gays, but they sure do take a lot of money from them.
I can't believe that Mars Hill-aligned businesses like Supergenius have such a good rep in Seattle.
Oh sure, Mars Hill may loathe gays, but they sure do take a lot of money from them.
3
A cousin was married at Mars Hill. The preacher talked about meeting Cousin and how "teachable" he is and what a gift that is. Several of us in the pews looked at each other and mouthed "cult." I mean, we knew that going in, but still...wow. Teachable!
4
Did you read part 2? It gets even worse. They posted a letter to the entire congregation in which they demand that Andrew be shunned by members and post an absurdly specific list of social situations they might encounter him in and exactly how to shun him. I recall reading about similar treatment toward people who escape Scientology.
This sort of thing is not even close to the norm in most Christian churches (people leave churches all the time over disagreements and usually people just move on with their lives), and quite frankly it's a little scary to know that this cult has gained so much momentum in my city.
This sort of thing is not even close to the norm in most Christian churches (people leave churches all the time over disagreements and usually people just move on with their lives), and quite frankly it's a little scary to know that this cult has gained so much momentum in my city.
5
Mars Hill aren't Maoists. They are neo-Calvinists. Like the puritanical pilgrims. Next up: scarlet letters, witch hunts, bans on Christmas.
6
"Andrew will fully describe all positions engaged in, the number of thrusts, the quantity and quality of his ejaculate, and also whether he inadvertently thinks about bulging, muscular, sweaty men whenever he blows his load. No, there's nothing weird about this at all," Paster Driscoll stated.
7
"...your faith is your faith and none of my businesses..." That would be true if it were not for them ordering their congregations to fight political battles despite their tax status. Then it's everyone elses business.
8
I'm glad that poor boy got out. I worry for the rest of the "congregation" who won't ever leave. Some people just don't question their surroundings very much. They get to be led around and told all manner of things.
And you know, why is it called "Mars Hill" anyway? From the Roman god of war? Because there is a hill with a blemish somewhere?
If anyone can answer that, I'd be quite interested.
And you know, why is it called "Mars Hill" anyway? From the Roman god of war? Because there is a hill with a blemish somewhere?
If anyone can answer that, I'd be quite interested.
10
Mars Hill is located in Athens, Greece. (Aeropagus--The Hill of Ares). It's the place where Paul preached to the Greeks.
11
I'm not wild about mega churches either. So I don't go to them. I don't theologically agree with the Mormon church, so I don't attend one. I don't think Hitchens evangelical atheism of any value, so I don't buy his books or listen to his recorded lectures.
See how easy that is? Surprised it didn't occur to you folks already to be honest.
See how easy that is? Surprised it didn't occur to you folks already to be honest.
12
I think this more about the lack of access to porn by XXX and Pastor X. I'm surprised they didn't want pictures too.
13
@5, the Pilgrims didn't do this kind of specific self-analysis, writing out lists of specific sins they have committed against the Hive Mind, like the Maoists et al. It's a main feature of cults. If you have trouble thinking of some, they will be there to help you. It's also found in AA.
It very similar to the news stories recently about North Korea sending out emissaries to identify and correct people who didn't grieve sufficiently for the departed Dear Leader. The crime wasn't just "not crying", but "not crying sincerely enough", which is enough leeway that virtually anybody can be found guilty of it. It's not designed to actually correct behavior but to bend minds, not to ensure better crying in the future but to engage people in the process of aligning their minds with the groupthink. Process, not result. In this kind of submission, you WANT to submit, and you submit anew every moment.
It very similar to the news stories recently about North Korea sending out emissaries to identify and correct people who didn't grieve sufficiently for the departed Dear Leader. The crime wasn't just "not crying", but "not crying sincerely enough", which is enough leeway that virtually anybody can be found guilty of it. It's not designed to actually correct behavior but to bend minds, not to ensure better crying in the future but to engage people in the process of aligning their minds with the groupthink. Process, not result. In this kind of submission, you WANT to submit, and you submit anew every moment.
15
@11
Except many of those organizations seek to gain and use power against things that I (and very many others) value. In other words, we can't ignore them because they won't let us. One would think that would be an obvious point, but of course it does not occur to the obviously very gifted Seattleblues.
Except many of those organizations seek to gain and use power against things that I (and very many others) value. In other words, we can't ignore them because they won't let us. One would think that would be an obvious point, but of course it does not occur to the obviously very gifted Seattleblues.
16
Wouldn't years of honest confession lead to the Catholic clergy having the same sort of "list of sins?" Isn't that one way they controlled many of our most recent centuries, by trading heaven for juicy info?
18
Brendan, please: credit where credit is due. Mao lifted his playbook on this one straight from the Bolsheviks. It's *Leninist*, not Maoist.
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@ 18, I don't recall this sort of thing happening under Lenin. Stalin, perhaps, particularly with the relatively mild purges of the 1920's, but not Lenin.
21
Their heirarchal structure is pretty frightening. In essence, the majority of the time, Mark Driscoll is preaching at one of the locations and the others watch this sermon broadcast onto large screens (the production value is truly professional)- this is on Sunday. Then, throughout the rest of the week, there are community groups (depends on the group, but say 10-30 people) that gather at one of their houses and discuss the sermon, often over some sort of food. Sounds fine, right? Kinda like a study group after a lecture in college. Not exactly. Each community group has a leader, who in turn reports to a regional group leader, who in turn reports to a salaried staff member based out of one of their church locations. They are all men, most in their late 20s to early 40s, all who have gone through a pretty thorough indoctrination/screening/vetting process to make sure their theology is in line with the theology of Mars Hill as a whole. This is particularly important because these community group leaders are the like the non-commissioned officers in the military (NCOs): it is their role to enforce policy outlined by the commissioned officers. Think in terms of Mark being the General and these community group leaders as Sargents. When I say enforce, I mean enforce: there is a persistent threat of "false doctrine" (see rational thought) seeping into these little cells, so it is the community group leader's responsibility to stomp this out, including ejected members from the group if they don't get into line after repeated attempts. I witnessed this first hand by going first to a Sunday service and then the accompanying community group meeting the following Tuesday. I did this out of intellectual curiousity more than anything else and have a good friend who is very involved in Mars Hill. The overarching sense I walked away with (and I indeed walked away from the meeting prior to the prayer session- one's curiosity only goes so far before it is overtaken by one's gag reflex) was that this is how the entire church is held in check. It was as if the service Sunday was to give the marching orders and the group meeting Tuesday was to ensure those marching orders were not only followed but went un-questioned.
In my first-hand estimation, Mars Hill is indeed a cult. I also believe that Mark Driscoll will eventually be rocked by some sort of scandal that will fragment the church; there is, to me, a disconnect between the personality that seeks the limelight of fame while simultaneously carrying the mantle of piety that does not bode well for Mark.
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In my first-hand estimation, Mars Hill is indeed a cult. I also believe that Mark Driscoll will eventually be rocked by some sort of scandal that will fragment the church; there is, to me, a disconnect between the personality that seeks the limelight of fame while simultaneously carrying the mantle of piety that does not bode well for Mark.
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@ 19, no doubt. SB had stated that he wouldn't post for "a few weeks," but he couldn't stay away for even three days.
24
This actually sounds kind of like a daddy/son contract some friends I know have with each other. Except I think they read the diary together and get off on it.
25
@8 and @14: about 10 to 15 years ago, the name 'Mars Hill' suddenly became a popular name for churches. The two most famous are Driscoll's and the Minnesota church formerly led by Rob Bell. Bell caused a huge Evangelical kerfuffle for publishing a book with 'universalist tendencies' not long ago, and even made the cover of Time. I also recall getting a Christmas card a few years back from a family member who had joined a 'Mars Hill' church in Missouri.
'The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology' used to be 'Mars Hill Graduate School', but they had to change their name to avoid association with Driscoll's outfit. My understanding is that the school's outlook is about as different from Driscoll's as can be still included under the umbrella of 'Christian'.
The relevant bible passage is Acts 17:22-34. I assume that the most relevant is verse 24, which speaks of God as 'not living in temples built by human hands,' thus making it popular with outfits who wished to have a hip, social media/internet presence.
'The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology' used to be 'Mars Hill Graduate School', but they had to change their name to avoid association with Driscoll's outfit. My understanding is that the school's outlook is about as different from Driscoll's as can be still included under the umbrella of 'Christian'.
The relevant bible passage is Acts 17:22-34. I assume that the most relevant is verse 24, which speaks of God as 'not living in temples built by human hands,' thus making it popular with outfits who wished to have a hip, social media/internet presence.
27
@25 "Mars Hill" is also popular because it is one of those magic parts of the bible where the fairy tales involve a person or location that can be externally identified. "See! It's all real, because Mars Hill still exists!" The name Theophilus also gives that crowd a chubby.
The make-it-up-as-you-go egomaniac preachers like Driscoll like to draw on the portions of Acts that provide vignettes of the early church. By establishing a toehold in that world, he can go on to say, "This is how it was supposed to be, but the (bad guys) perverted the church. Only WE know what the church is supposed to be like!" Once you can claim that authority, it's all gravy.
Verdict: Cult.
The make-it-up-as-you-go egomaniac preachers like Driscoll like to draw on the portions of Acts that provide vignettes of the early church. By establishing a toehold in that world, he can go on to say, "This is how it was supposed to be, but the (bad guys) perverted the church. Only WE know what the church is supposed to be like!" Once you can claim that authority, it's all gravy.
Verdict: Cult.
28
@26: It's only lattes and energy drinks here!
Lovin the lord, and doing the ~sickest~ skateboard moves while our obedient, submissive wives aren't allowed to work outside of a domestic environment, broseph!
Lovin the lord, and doing the ~sickest~ skateboard moves while our obedient, submissive wives aren't allowed to work outside of a domestic environment, broseph!
29
@27 -- D'oh! I totally forgot to work in the whole 'OMG the early church is soooo rockin' thing that happened simultaneously.
30
@ 21. Would you send me an email, Honktified? It's brendan [symbol] thestranger [punctuation mark] com.
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@33: He sure spends a lot of time telling people not to worry about other peoples beliefs when he's busy hating on the gays.
37
Its nice to see an insight to what goes on in a cult like Mars Hill. I understand trying to help someone through their sins but to have them spell it out and go to meeting after meeting and explain in excruciating detail is just sick. Dont ya think the poor boy is tortured enough about what he did? Now you have to make him relive it and every other sin he has committed. And Im sure he's not confused and questioning his own religion and faith on top of it. Talk about controlling bastards.
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