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Tuesday, February 7, 2012

It's Not Over Until We Say It's Over

Posted by on Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 1:42 PM

The decision in California today is heartening—even if no same-sex couples will be getting married in California anytime soon, even if the ruling is so narrowly worded that it applies only to same-sex couples in California. But, hey, let's celebrate! I'm at the airport in Dallas, where I'm enjoying a celebratory Patrone margarita with salt and extra salt. This drink tastes like my husband looks in a Speedo. So, hey, let's hear it for 9th Circuits and good tequila and husbands and Speedos and husbands who look good in Speedos! (I have one of those; Terry, sadly, does not.)

The haters, of course, announced in advance that they would appeal a favorable-to-justice-and-equality decision. Because they hate. They're going to appeal this ruling to the full 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals and, if justice and equality gets a favorable ruling from the full 9th Circuit, they're going to appeal this all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. And when it gets to the Supreme Court we're probably going to...

Well, before we talk about that—before we waste our precious minds thinking about Antonin and Sam and Clarence and John weighing in on our civil equality—let's just take a second to bask in the meaning of this decision. Equality, justice, fairness. All that. But for me the most profound meaning in today's ruling—it's single biggest takeaway—is this: no single victory for the haters, no "successful" effort to write bigotry into any single state's constitution, will end the fight for marriage equality or the fight for the full civil equality of LGBT people. (Gotta do something about that trans-exclusive DADT repeal; gotta pass ENDA; gotta pass Al Franken's Student Non-Discrimination Act.) They might win one—they might win again and again—but the fight for our full civil equality isn't over until we say it's over.

And it's not over until we win.

The fight for marriage equality wasn't over in California when they passed Prop 8. The fight for marriage equality wasn't over in Washington state when our Supreme Court handed down an appalling bigoted decision upholding our state's ban on same-sex marriage. It wasn't over in New York state after that state's highest court handed down a similarly bigoted decision. The fight to allow gay people to serve openly in the military wasn't over when DADT passed. The fight against sodomy laws wasn't over when the United States Supreme Court ruled in Bowers v. Hardwick that gay people did not have a constitutional right to privacy and could be arrested in their bedrooms for engaging in private, consensual, adult sexual conduct. We kept fighting, we kept suing, we kept organizing, we kept counting votes, we kept raising money, we screaming and yelling and protesting because...

It isn't over until we say it's over and it's not over until we win.

I fully expect that when marriage equality comes before the United States Supreme Court... we could lose. Don't get me wrong: I hope to God that we win; I hope that Anthony Kennedy sides with the court's liberal minority and with himself. But remember: even if we lose the first marriage equality case that comes up before the Supreme Court, it isn't over. Not over. Until. We win. Yes, we lost Bowers v. Hardwick in '86; I'm old enough to remember where I was when that hugely bigoted decision came down and how depressing that loss was: I was at a Kentucky Shakespeare Festival rehearsal for Comedy of Errors in Louisville, Kentucky, with a bunch of theater people—gay and straight—and we were disfuckingtraught. But we didn't give up. We didn't give up after Bowers v. Hardwick the same way we didn't give up after Prop 8. And ten years after Bowers v. Hardwick? We won Lawrence v. Texas: in 2003 the Supreme Court ruled that—whodathunkit!—gay people did have a right to privacy, just like straight people do, and the court struck down anti-gay and anti-straight sodomy laws in 13 states. And today, less than a decade after after Lawrence v. Texas, a state ban on consensual gay and/or straight sodomy is inconceivable—well, inconceivable to all except Rick Santorum. (Santorum would love his gay son, says Rick, but Santorum would also like to see his gay son arrested, prosecuted and imprisoned.)

So, yeah, we might lose the first time marriage equality comes up before the Supreme Court—just like we lost the first time sodomy came up before the Supreme Court. But we can't let that loss, if we lose, fill us with despair. I'm confident we won't let that loss fill us with despair because we never have allowed a loss to fill us with despair. We have always kept fighting.

Because it's not over until we say it's over and, goddammit, it's not over until we win.

Doors closing! Gotta run—sorry in advance for any haste and/or margarita-induced typos.


Comments (66) RSS

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Will in Seattle 1
Margaritas ftw!
Posted by Will in Seattle on February 7, 2012 at 1:49 PM · Report this
michaelp 2
Lawrence v. Texas was in 2006. Twenty years, not ten.

Romer v. Evans was a great ruling in the 90's, though.
Posted by michaelp on February 7, 2012 at 1:50 PM · Report this
Vince 3
And a part of that fight includes coming out to family and friends and voting in every single election. Because without those two things the fight is longer and more difficult.
Posted by Vince on February 7, 2012 at 1:51 PM · Report this
michaelp 4
And by 2006 I mean 2003, and 17 years, etc.
Posted by michaelp on February 7, 2012 at 1:52 PM · Report this
You know, Dan never has posted a pic of Terry in a Speedo. Seems only fair, if he wants us to send him pics, that he reciprocate. All that bragging without proof? I'm calling foul.

Oh, and Yay for the 9th circuit court. We can only hope that the Supreme Court loses a single conservative member before the case gets there.
Posted by SeattleKim on February 7, 2012 at 1:53 PM · Report this
If "Bowers vs. Hardick" is a typo, I think it should be left uncorrected :)
Posted by I have always been... east coaster on February 7, 2012 at 1:53 PM · Report this
Hey this is Great!

Gay Marriage for EVERYBODY!!

'cause its JUST AS GOOD, you know......
Posted by WE'RE WINNING!!! on February 7, 2012 at 1:57 PM · Report this
passionate_jus 8
We will eventually win. And Alabamans will eventually be able to legally buy vibrators too!…
Posted by passionate_jus on February 7, 2012 at 1:57 PM · Report this
Beautifully written, sir!!
Posted by prettymuchsam on February 7, 2012 at 1:59 PM · Report this
Free Lunch 10
I feel like I'm in a giant, gay locker room, listening to a half-time pep talk.
Posted by Free Lunch on February 7, 2012 at 2:06 PM · Report this
Some powerfully beautiful wording there.

We ended slavery. We gave women and non-whites the vote. We let people of different colors marry. We desegregated the schools. WE. WILL. HAVE. OUR. CIVIL. RIGHTS.
Posted by abadidea on February 7, 2012 at 2:06 PM · Report this
Purocuyu 12
Dan that would make one hell of a ralllying cry (and t-shirt btw). Good job.
Posted by Purocuyu on February 7, 2012 at 2:15 PM · Report this
All the more reason for gays everywhere to push for President Obama's re-election. Ruth Bader Ginsburg has said she could retire soon, and it wouldn't be before the 2012 election. Hate to think what a Romney appointee could tip to this case.
Posted by adamsass on February 7, 2012 at 2:18 PM · Report this
Lissa 14
I <3 you Dan Savage, and I have crystal candy dish with your names on it for when the time comes you and Terry can marry here at home.
Or you can just tell us where you're registered, and I'll get you some kitchen gadget or something ...
Posted by Lissa on February 7, 2012 at 2:25 PM · Report this
I've been fighting since I was twenty, some thirty-five years or so ago. I'm fighting to win this 'til the whistle blows.
Posted by NealB on February 7, 2012 at 2:49 PM · Report this
TreGibbs 16
Can't imagine the Supreme Court ruling in favor of discrimination. We need to remember and POINT OUT that marriage equality IS NOT a political issue - it's a CIVIL RIGHTS issue and the moment that civil rights becomes a partisan issue is the moment that the ideals of the USA are dead.
Posted by TreGibbs on February 7, 2012 at 3:03 PM · Report this
I see where you're going with this Dan, and it does rather raise the question: why don't the religionists skip over all this secular judicial folderol and go right to the top? I mean, surely God trumps the United States Supreme Court when it comes to matters such as these, yes? So, why aren't they appealing directly to Yahweh to make a ruling the issue? I mean, he certainly MUST agree with them, right? And he hears everything they say, right? And he always makes his decisions unequivocally clear to all parties, right?

I don't get it. If God is so fucking powerful why doesn't he just settle the matter once and for all? You don't think it could be, it must be some procedural thing, right?
Posted by COMTE on February 7, 2012 at 3:04 PM · Report this
I love it, Dan, when you get in this mode. Now let's go kick ass!
Posted by PaulBarwick on February 7, 2012 at 3:08 PM · Report this
Mazel tov!
Posted by ankylosaur on February 7, 2012 at 3:11 PM · Report this
brandon 20
Your husband looks salty and green?

And Speedo's? I get more thrill out of a cheap pair of boxer breifs.
Posted by brandon on February 7, 2012 at 3:12 PM · Report this
FYI: it's not just Santorum who can envision making gay sex a felony again. It's in the Montana Republican Party Official Platform:

"Homosexual Acts
We support the clear will of the people of Montana expressed by legislation to keep homosexual acts illegal."


I don't know that they're the only state with such a platform. And of course, most states where it was illegal have NOT repealed their laws against it; so should a conservative supreme court reverse itself (which it could do), those laws would be right back in effect.
Posted by cowboyinbrla on February 7, 2012 at 3:19 PM · Report this
Lawrence v. Texas came down while Bush was president. Yet HRC and other gay Democrats didn't rush to "thank" Bush for his leadership. Why do gay Democrats rush to thank Obama for every crumb we manage to squeeze from his homophobic, warmongering ass?

And when will queers get tired of waiting for years while someone else "gives us" our rights? Yay, we won... Absolutely nothing. Even if queers were allowed all the rights of marriage in California, it's only the state rights, not the big ticket items under federal law.

Lobbying and letting other people "fight" for your rights is bad for suicidal queer youth, but great for the job security of the gay 1%.
Posted by Zepol on February 7, 2012 at 3:19 PM · Report this
venomlash 23
@22: I'm not sure whether to refer you to a proctologist or a tree surgeon, what with that massive stick you have up your ass.
Posted by venomlash on February 7, 2012 at 3:23 PM · Report this
@2 and others - Anthony Kennedy wrote the opinions in both Romer and Lawrence - and he went directly to the 14th's equal protections clause in both instances. I honestly believe the current court is predisposed to go 5-4 in favor - not because they favor "gay marriage" but because they believe in "equal protection" that's where the battle should, and will, be won. It's not about getting marriage rights - it's about being treated equally under law IMHO
Posted by myr on February 7, 2012 at 3:25 PM · Report this
Allyn 25
@17 That brings to mind a story from the Bible - One Holy Prophet against a hundred evil bad pagan-ish priests. The priests called on their god to “please, please, pretty please, if you’re really there, come on baby light my fire.” And of course nothing happens. Then the One Holy Prophet walks over to his pile of wood, dumps a bunch of water on it and BOOM, God ignites the wood.

Maybe we should do that. Fill an arena with The Godly and have them pray for a pile of wood to ignite (after duping water on it, too). If it doesn’t, then marriage equality stands as law, because God obviously doesn’t care all that much.

Abortion, too. I’ll be the lamb on the wood, even. If they burn me, fine, they don’t have to fund Planned Parenthood. If they can’t burn me, then ABORTIONS FOR EVERYBODY!!!
Posted by Allyn on February 7, 2012 at 3:25 PM · Report this
The narrowness of the ruling actually suggests the Supreme Court would not take it. Assuming it stands, it won't affect anything outside California, with one notable exception. Washington is in the 9th Circuit, and this ruling would apply there. In fact, this ruling does apply there, right now. As it stands, the narrow holding in this case would very likely prohibit any initiative effort to amend Washington's constitution to undo equalization there. The facts are very much like those from California.

Washington already has domestic partnerships identical in all but name to marriage. The bill currently under consideration (and due for a key vote in the senate tomorrow) would make them equal in name, too. Any subsequent ballot initiative to amend Washington's constitution would then have the effect of withdrawing the name. It is the exact same situation the 9th Circuit addressed today for California.

True, the decision is narrow, but it isn't so narrow as to have no effect outside California whatsoever.
Posted by Qwertz on February 7, 2012 at 3:30 PM · Report this
puppydogtails 27
Thanks Dan, I needed to read this today. (Binational gay couple, living in exile.)

I can't see the Supreme Court consigning gay people to another decade or two of this nonsense. They MUST know that until they give us our freedom we will back as you say. And the idea that millions of gay people in the states with marriage equality, along with the servicemen and women who are barred from equal treatment by DOMA, plus people trying to file a sane tax return (!!) or go bankrupt in peace etc etc will stand idly by is a non-starter. If SCOTUS says no, it will be time to get all fucking Selma riots on their asses.
Posted by puppydogtails on February 7, 2012 at 3:31 PM · Report this
Alanmt 28
love you, dan!
Posted by Alanmt on February 7, 2012 at 3:40 PM · Report this
fuck. yes.
Posted by olechka on February 7, 2012 at 4:02 PM · Report this
echochamber 30
That marg must be amazing because I've seen your husband in a speedo and, damn, that's fantastic stuff.
Posted by echochamber on February 7, 2012 at 4:19 PM · Report this
Ophian 31

The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, in today's decision, validates Walkers very detailed ruling. I believe that this has the effect of accepting all 80 or so findings of fact from the original hearing [that this discrimination has no legitimate basis, that ss couples make fine parents, &c.] as binding precedent in all of the--very large--9th Circuit states.

That is of course depending on the en banc hearing _if_ the prop 8 proponents are granted one. If there is an en banc, and if we win [very likely], this will be the ruling that gives a great deal of ammo to our side in related cases--not just marriage rights--in a big jurisdiction.

...but IANAL.
Posted by Ophian on February 7, 2012 at 4:22 PM · Report this
Ophian 32
Oh, yeah: Suck it h8ters!
Posted by Ophian on February 7, 2012 at 4:23 PM · Report this

Alas, it does not quite have that effect. The court states upfront that adopting all 80 findings is not necessary to resolve the dispute, and declines to do so. If it had, it would have made a ripe target for reversal. In this in particular, the small steps are the way to go. I've made the law my chosen profession, and have a particular affinity for this area. This ruling is the absolute best possible outcome, especially for Californians. It's narrow enough that it shouldn't rise to the level of controversy the Supreme Court usually wants in the cases it takes, so it stands the best chances of finally settling the issue for Californians who have lived in uncertainty since 2008.
Posted by Qwertz on February 7, 2012 at 4:40 PM · Report this
Pretty sure this is a public post, Sloggers - feel free to wade into the crazy Mormon fray...…
Posted by dewdrop on February 7, 2012 at 4:47 PM · Report this
Joe Szilagyi 35
@33 so if the 9th and SCOTUS pass on taking the case, that's it? It's over, no further appeal or reversal is possible, and the matter is settled? They couldn't try to legislate or referendum away the right to marriage again?
Posted by Joe Szilagyi on February 7, 2012 at 5:02 PM · Report this
GoodOmens 36
Go Dan!
Posted by GoodOmens on February 7, 2012 at 5:06 PM · Report this
ferret 37
I hope some one or yourself use really good Tequilla for your next victory drink, and Terry as the artist probably looks good in anything, besides it has good color sense. (for his blonde hair, he should have a black speedo$
Posted by ferret http://!/okojo on February 7, 2012 at 5:19 PM · Report this
This is a bit off-topic and shallow, but what the hell.

Dan has posted plenty of YouTube videos giving college students advice in his tight, musculature-revealing t-shirts. I'd bet money he looks damn good in a Speedo. As sexy 40-something media fags go, he definitely gives Anderson Cooper a run for his money. :-)

And there you have it: An article about a Prop 8 ruling, and all I got from it was the mental image of Dan Savage in a Speedo ... works for me.
Posted by Daniel_NY on February 7, 2012 at 5:26 PM · Report this
kim in portland 39
Amen. I'm in.
Posted by kim in portland on February 7, 2012 at 6:30 PM · Report this
Yes. Yes, Dan, yes.
Posted by bodhirungus on February 7, 2012 at 7:32 PM · Report this

Well, if it stands, then the Prop 8 supporters could try to get an initiative amendment on the ballot to take away both the name 'marriage' AND the legal incidents of marriage from same-sex couples. They tried this at the same time they were trying Prop 8 and it failed to get enough signatures to make the ballot. Such a thing would be unlikely to pass in a State like California, even if it could get on the ballot. Absent that, California would be pretty much "stuck" with fully equalized marriage.
Posted by Qwertz on February 7, 2012 at 8:08 PM · Report this
OutInBumF 42
Why the H8'ers don't just give up is a mystery. No matter how many setbacks, unless the general populace takes up arms against us (and even then), we'll be back in court until we have full equality.
Looks like the "I don't like 'em cause they have the ooky buttsecks and THE BIBLE" arguments aren't flying too well anymore....
Posted by OutInBumF on February 7, 2012 at 8:14 PM · Report this
harmonyak 43
Thanks, Dan, for the mental image of you in a speedo.
Posted by harmonyak on February 7, 2012 at 8:24 PM · Report this
mollificent 44
Terry in a speedo. *mind boggles*

Thanks, Dan. Next time I see him, I'm going to have no trouble at all acting professional. *tugs at collar nervously* ;)

On a more serious note, HELL YEAH it's not over till we win. Well said, Dan.
Posted by mollificent on February 7, 2012 at 9:06 PM · Report this
Write or Wrong 45
Damn right. What an inspiring post!
Posted by Write or Wrong on February 7, 2012 at 9:19 PM · Report this
Write or Wrong 46
And I agree wholeheartedly, @38. Nice biceps, Dan.
Posted by Write or Wrong on February 7, 2012 at 9:21 PM · Report this
While I remain of the belief that somehow the God-botherers are going to find a way to win this one (all those congregations praying around the clock for poor Justice Ginsburg to develop full-blown cancer have convinced me that they are the more relentless side), the post is inspirational and the occasion well merits dropping the pretence of being a decade younger than is actually the case.
Posted by vennominon on February 7, 2012 at 11:42 PM · Report this
And you will win. Dr. King said that the arch of justice bends towards justice. So true.
Posted by Patricia Kayden on February 8, 2012 at 7:32 AM · Report this
I just had a vision of Francis talking to the ant colony... When those grasshoppers get here, we are gonna KNOCK. THEM. DEAD! (roar of the crowd!!!)
Posted by KK_SNH on February 8, 2012 at 8:14 AM · Report this
Chris in Vancouver WA 50
I'd say, full marriage equality in all 50 states, and it's over THEN. After that, I don't care what happens. I refuse to spend the rest of my life in a constant state of battle-readiness. It's soul-crushing.
Posted by Chris in Vancouver WA on February 8, 2012 at 11:23 AM · Report this
For someone who writes professionally you could have written your whole drunken speech much more succinctly. As for instance-

'I'm a deviant perverted freak with the moral sense of a chimpanzee declaring war on my own culture.'

Yeah. Not really news there little Danny Boy the Savage. We all know you hate integrity, morality, decency of any kind, law as used to express the will of the majority, family and marriage, and generally this nation. Why you feel the need to trumpet your hatred so brazenly is indifferently interesting, the hatred itself is merely a sign of your mental illness.

FYI. You don't have a husband. Whatever the idiots in the legislature say, you never will have. You're a pervert. A mentally ill deviant vulgarian with no redeeming qualities whatever. I've scraped things off my shoes after visiting an off leash park with more value than you. But you're not a husband. The Washington activist legislators can call a thing what it ain't all they like, but it won't change reality for any sane person.
Posted by Seattleblues on February 8, 2012 at 11:28 AM · Report this
puppydogtails 52
Anytime our friend in #51 chips in, you know you're kicking butt Dan! Keep it up!

PS Troll Institute is looking for new case studies.
Posted by puppydogtails on February 8, 2012 at 11:50 AM · Report this
venomlash 53
@51: You are THIS mad. You're not even trying to make a point here; all you're doing now is playa-hating.
Posted by venomlash on February 8, 2012 at 1:55 PM · Report this
thelyamhound 54
'I'm a deviant perverted freak with the moral sense of a chimpanzee declaring war on my own culture.'
Even if you're someone who believes that to be true of Dan, this isn't the post from which you could extrapolate such mouth-breathing nonsense. It could, however, be put more succinctly, if your facile capacities require as much:

"The fight for what one discerns to be right does not end when one is told, even by the culture at large, that what one fights for is wrong. Until the error is demonstrated, morality insists that a condition of injustice be opposed, at all costs."

. . . law as used to express the will of the majority, family and marriage, and generally this nation.
You've got some of us, there. I do NOT support law used to express the will of the majority, or to circumscribe institutions that are subjectively defined by various groups within the body politic. I've never met a person qualified to be my moral arbiter (and in measuring those qualifications, you don't even make the upper half). What I expect from law--and I demand nothing less, and will brook nothing more--is a baseline protection of person and property so that the various groups, with their opposing institutional definitions, are restrained from infringing on one another's rights, and that institutions recognized by the state for one of those "tribes" is mirrored by equal recognition for essentially identical institutions practiced by another.
You don't have a husband.
Neither does your wife, I daresay; nor have your children a father. I can commend you on their having survived; my assumption would be that any woman small, stupid, or self-hating enough to share coitus with the likes of you would have devoured her progeny at the first hint of anxiety, like a spooked gerbil.
Posted by thelyamhound on February 8, 2012 at 4:51 PM · Report this
Oh, venomlash, I heart you so much.
Posted by clashfan on February 8, 2012 at 7:59 PM · Report this
Seattleblues, you're particularly non-Christian today. You're showing exactly why it is that so many people are turning against Christians, mentioning the Inquisition and the Witch Hunts at each opportunity, and claiming nothing a Christian says deserves credit.

It's your sheer lack of human compassion, of any inkling of the possibility that Mr Savage might actually be a human being like you, with a heart, a sense of morality, a life, and, yes, a husband whom he loves -- it's this blindness that makes it so easy to see you for the Pharisee you are.

I'm really sorry that you have to spend time expressing your bitter feelings here, rather than try to do something to contribute to the society you purport to support. Your gay neighbors would be ashamed of you, and rightfully so.

I understand that your feelings come from the perception that yours is a dying viewpoint, that people in the future will puzzle about unfair opinions such as yours and wonder how people thought they made sense at all. Especially when you lace them with snippets clearly meant to hurt others. Why cast stones? Why does he think he has to be so mean?

The answer: because he sees the world as a threat, and he has to retaliate. This has nothing to do with morality, with right and wrong, with a sense of fairness or love. This has to do with fear. You're afraid, Seattleblues, you're threatened. And it's a pity that you feel that way, because absolutely nothing is happening that threatens you. Like the proverbial boy afraid of the monster in his closet or under the bet, you're spending time and energy fighting against something that represents no threat whatsoever to you, your life, or your happiness, or in fact anyone else's.

As Ian Curtis once sang, your time is so wastefully spent. Vehemence against a dragon that doesn't exist, outrage at something that is moral and good, anger and invective against a lamb?...

Do you now understand why they preferred Barabbas?...
Posted by ankylosaur on February 9, 2012 at 12:54 AM · Report this
If only there was a way to reach you, Seattleblues! If only you weren't as afraid as they were when they, like you, chose Barabbas (because the other guy, you know, threatened them with his redefinitions of old ideas, with his bold lifestyle, with his disrespect for certain parts of tradition...)...

But you won't even answer this. Like Caiaphas, you will cook in your anger till you're well done. (Caiaphas was also afraid, and outraged. He also wanted to protect traditional definitions. Sanity. Good.) You won't open your heart and accept a possibility -- a mere possiblity! -- of there being truth elsewhere. Because you basically like your anger. It's soothing, like a soft breeze.

Isn't it? Anger is much better than fear. With anger, at least, you don't have to face the possibility that you may be wrong, that you may have misinterpreted or misjudged something. You avoid penance and attonement.

That is why they, like you, preferred Barabbas.
Posted by ankylosaur on February 9, 2012 at 1:11 AM · Report this
Rob in Baltimore 58
51, Seattleblues, you're so cute when you're having a nervous breakdown.
Posted by Rob in Baltimore on February 9, 2012 at 9:14 AM · Report this
Apparently our friend SB is unaware that the meanings of words evolve and change over time. The same can be said of human institutions such as marriage.
Posted by Ken Mehlman on February 9, 2012 at 9:56 AM · Report this
The California courts decision is tightly worded. I am not a lawyer but it would seem difficult to launch a successful appeal of this decision precisely because of the wording of the ruling.
Posted by tmrobertca on February 9, 2012 at 10:23 AM · Report this
Barbara Tee 61
Mormons and Catholics, the time is coming when they will be FINISHED. Oh, they will keep on twitching for a while; but they are almost as good as dead, as far as making Public Policy with their strange and bigoted ideas, goes. I am referring of course to the Hierarchy of both religions {or "Cults", is a better word}.
They are BOTH exemplars of superstitious nonsense that they require adherents to give "lip service" to; altho most adults, secretly in their heart of hearts, do not actually go along with the most outlandish bits of the respective {and mutually contradictory} dogmas; but are afraid to say so in public; and continue to try and mis-educate children that way, for political and financial reasons of Church power and solvency.
The Hypocrisy on so many levels, of both Cults, Catholic and Mormon, is just staggering!

Virgin Birth? God's Impregnation through the Virgin's Ear? Fetish Underwear that keeps Sin and Evil Spirits away? Probably adults don't really, REALLY believe in all that -- but they just are afraid to say so, it would erode their positions of power.....
We gotta start calling them out on Hypocrisy issues.... also that they don't actually practice the morals that they preach.....

Whatever his faults and failings, Vote for Obama; not only an anti-Rights Supreme Court, but a whole lot of Federal Judgeships, would be the result of a Fetish Underwear Mormon instead of Obama having charge of appointments for the next 4 years..... holding things up in an unwarranted manner, inconsistent with the real change taking place in Public Opinion.....
Posted by Barbara Tee on February 9, 2012 at 2:36 PM · Report this
tainte 62
why do you idiots even respond to seattleblues? STOP TAKING THE BAIT AND HE/SHIT/IT WILL GO AWAY.
Posted by tainte on February 10, 2012 at 12:11 PM · Report this
@62, basically, to show that I see what the answers are. To keep my muscles toned, to have the data and the arguments ready. You never know when that might come in handy.
Posted by ankylosaur on February 10, 2012 at 2:24 PM · Report this
tainte 64
ok, sure. but maybe just do that shit in yr head. how awesome would it be to see seattleblues post a bunch of idiocy and no one take the bait?
Posted by tainte on February 10, 2012 at 3:13 PM · Report this
I haven't been around for a while... has Seattleblues gotten worse? It seems like he's gotten worse.
Posted by Joseph in London on February 12, 2012 at 11:04 AM · Report this
The thing to understand about Seattleblues that he doesn't express very eloquently is that he just knows from experience that sex is so much hotter when it's taboo. All the freedoms and rights are good and proper, but people like Seattleblues know that good and proper aren't always precursors to hot, hot sex in the same way taboos and the risk of getting caught are. He's just trying to keep gay sex hot, don'tchaknow ...
Posted by aquavit73 on February 13, 2012 at 8:06 AM · Report this

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