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News & ArtsFriday, March 23, 2012
Crime I Do Have a Son Who Looks Like Trayvon
Posted by Charles Mudede on Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 8:29 AM
But my main message is to the parents of Trayvon Martin. You know if I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon...This is the very reason why I tell my son not to wear hoodies and such "indicators" because when you are dead, it's too late. My message to him has been that this is the society you live in and you have to be realistic. My own parents were as frank to me, when I was a boy; over and over, they said all the talk about equality is just talk, you have to protect your life, and to do so you have to do things white kids don't have to do.
Lots of people are coming down on Geraldo Rivera for tweeting this:
Trayvon killed by a jerk w a gun but black & Latino parents have to drill into kids heads: a hoodie is like a sign: shoot or stop & frisk me
But what country do we live in? In this country, racist cops do not go to prison for killing black boys. (And now we are learning that this exemption extends down to neighborhood watch characters.) In this country, the only way a black boy can succeed is to know he has to work twice as hard as the average white kid. It's not fair, true, but it's a fact of being a black boy in America.
3
I'll agree that there are things you can do to make yourself look more or less like a vandal, more or less like a 'slut', more or less like a victim. And yes, sometimes that's a good thing to do. But just like women aren't raped because of what they wear, Trayvon wasn't shot because of his hoodie. He was shot because this asshole had been looking for trouble for months, if not years. His repeated calls to 911 and insistence on following the kid when told not to proves it. He was a little man with a little power, and that made him feel big.
4
I don't care what he was wearing. He was doing nothing wrong. He was gunned down by a fool who deserves punishment.
6
@3 -- It's his parents fault because they didn't teach him how to dress white enough.
I forbid my daughters from showing their shoulders when they leave my house. I'd like it if they didn't have to worry about being raped for breaking this rule.
I forbid my daughters from showing their shoulders when they leave my house. I'd like it if they didn't have to worry about being raped for breaking this rule.
7
Listen: If a cop rapes a woman, he will go to prison; if he guns down a black boy, he will not. sorry, that's how it works in America. it's not about hoodies, it about this reality, this fact.
9
@6: The point is, it would be wonderful if people did not have to worry about their dress and what that signals to others, but we live in a world of predators where it does matter.
Since we live in an imperfect world, those who are unfairly targeted have to take responsibility to protect themselves, and how they dress is a big factor in that.
Sad but true, and not abiding by reality can incur horrible penalties. It is NO ONE'S FAULT if their dress style contributes to predation, but it hardly matters whose fault it is when one is laying on the street bleeding out.
Since we live in an imperfect world, those who are unfairly targeted have to take responsibility to protect themselves, and how they dress is a big factor in that.
Sad but true, and not abiding by reality can incur horrible penalties. It is NO ONE'S FAULT if their dress style contributes to predation, but it hardly matters whose fault it is when one is laying on the street bleeding out.
10
Obama doesn't wear a hoodie and yet this still keeps happening:
http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/en…
http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/en…
11
but what if a cop rapes a black woman?
and i'd wager that most cops who gun down people (white, black, or otherwise) don't go to prison.
and i'd wager that most cops who gun down people (white, black, or otherwise) don't go to prison.
12
Charles,
Yes, you are describing an actual phenomenon, and we would all benefit as a society if more privileged people learned this, so that we could work on changing it. However, I do not know that this is the teachable moment for that lesson.
As others have pointed out, Trayvon was killed by a guy who was working himself up to kill a black person over the course of months, and the vigilante-wet-dream law that has allowed him to escape without legal repercussions. George Zimmerman is not a unique aberration and this law is wide-spread and there have been other killings that have escaped our notice. This is what requires our immediate attention.
Yes, you are describing an actual phenomenon, and we would all benefit as a society if more privileged people learned this, so that we could work on changing it. However, I do not know that this is the teachable moment for that lesson.
As others have pointed out, Trayvon was killed by a guy who was working himself up to kill a black person over the course of months, and the vigilante-wet-dream law that has allowed him to escape without legal repercussions. George Zimmerman is not a unique aberration and this law is wide-spread and there have been other killings that have escaped our notice. This is what requires our immediate attention.
13
The shift to cops is interesting, since Zimmerman isn't a cop. But it's interesting to note that the cop who was on trial early this week got off even though he's black. I don't think this is a trend, but probably being a cop trumps everything.
14
@3 I agree completely. The child could have been wearing a sign that said “I’m a robber” and it would not make Zimmerman any less of a murderer. By making this about hoodies is changing the argument from how Florida law protects this self-appointed street defender and how owning a gun may have made him more aggressive or how he was going to be a cowboy and the gun was his prop to how black children need to dress a certain way and now into how girls should dress to avoid rape.
I understand that black children have to act differently than white children when dealing with police just to avoid getting killed by a trigger-happy brute. However, Trayvon was not killed because of his hoodie. He was killed because a gun-nut decided he was going to protect his streets from an imaginary boogie-man because he was the only one capable of protecting his neighborhood and he wanted to be a hero.
Trayvon’s hoodie was as responsible for his death as right-wing talk shows and Faux-News networks.
I understand that black children have to act differently than white children when dealing with police just to avoid getting killed by a trigger-happy brute. However, Trayvon was not killed because of his hoodie. He was killed because a gun-nut decided he was going to protect his streets from an imaginary boogie-man because he was the only one capable of protecting his neighborhood and he wanted to be a hero.
Trayvon’s hoodie was as responsible for his death as right-wing talk shows and Faux-News networks.
15
Charles @7: "If a cop rapes a woman, he will go to prison..."
Bullshit. Barring a multitude of eyewitnesses, there likely won't even be a serious investigation.
Bullshit. Barring a multitude of eyewitnesses, there likely won't even be a serious investigation.
16
#11 makes an excellent point, and a small amount of research does suggest that in any police shooting, the officers typically suffer no legal or departmental punishment, but often get hit with large civil suits, which are usually settled.
This happens regardless of race, and viewing a list of police brutality cases across the country for the last two years suggests that there are similar numbers of brutality against whites, Hispanics, and African-Amercians. Whites typically get brutalized and killed during home raids, and Blacks on the street.
I would guess the white-on-black cases get much more national press due to the incendiary and ratings-gathering rhetoric that follows.
This happens regardless of race, and viewing a list of police brutality cases across the country for the last two years suggests that there are similar numbers of brutality against whites, Hispanics, and African-Amercians. Whites typically get brutalized and killed during home raids, and Blacks on the street.
I would guess the white-on-black cases get much more national press due to the incendiary and ratings-gathering rhetoric that follows.
17
Geraldo Rivera is an asshole for blaming the victim (and his family). It is not this boy's fault that the neanderthal that shot him associates a particular item of clothing with criminals.
We should be working to end racism, not working to force black children to dress more white in order to avoid being shot by random assholes.
We should be working to end racism, not working to force black children to dress more white in order to avoid being shot by random assholes.
18
Token minority here:
I hate to, but I agree with charles on this one. All the white rage over this is as disconnected as it is reactionary. My father used to go out of his way to remind us if we didn't want to be treated like uneducated criminals, we needed to not dress and behave like them.
Everyone who is outraged over this shooting keeps dressing this kid up as a martyr are never stopping to ask if his mannerisms may have aggravated or even contributed to the incident. This wasn't a poor 12 year old kid gunned down at the playground, it was a 17 yr old who threw up a hoodie and ran, this was more provocation than John Willams gave Ian Birk, who was acquitted by a jury btw.
Zimmerman instigated the confrontation but I cant say at face value if he committed murder, no one but a jury can. This is a slam dunk manslaughter conviction, but after the media circus Zimmerman will walk on a trumped up murder charge. The national white guilt association needs to stop trying to convict in the court of opinion.
I hate to, but I agree with charles on this one. All the white rage over this is as disconnected as it is reactionary. My father used to go out of his way to remind us if we didn't want to be treated like uneducated criminals, we needed to not dress and behave like them.
Everyone who is outraged over this shooting keeps dressing this kid up as a martyr are never stopping to ask if his mannerisms may have aggravated or even contributed to the incident. This wasn't a poor 12 year old kid gunned down at the playground, it was a 17 yr old who threw up a hoodie and ran, this was more provocation than John Willams gave Ian Birk, who was acquitted by a jury btw.
Zimmerman instigated the confrontation but I cant say at face value if he committed murder, no one but a jury can. This is a slam dunk manslaughter conviction, but after the media circus Zimmerman will walk on a trumped up murder charge. The national white guilt association needs to stop trying to convict in the court of opinion.
19
Law-abiding men of color are shot every day while not wearing hoodies. Yes, there are stupid, insulting steps that can be taken by POC to try to navigate racism (just as there are stupid, insulting steps that can be taken by women to try to navigate rape culture), but focusing on clothing takes the focus off exactly where it needs to be: The man who shot him and the law that created this situation.
20
Charles,
Granted, appearances do mean much in this country ("one never gets a second chance at a first impression") but it never should mean the right to harm or kill someone ever.
Alas, sporting a "hoodie" has long had an unfortunate perception ("hidden thuggery" or "threat") especially upon young black males. No human deserves a vile and vicious act put upon him or her as a result of what they wear. But, young people might want to reconsider their attire. You're counseling your son well.
I don't believe your last paragraph has anything to do with the Trayvon Martin tragedy though and I'm uneasy with the sentence that begins "In this country, racist cops..." Racist cops are brought to justice in this country if the matter is pursued thoroughly. Just as I hope, a cop-wanna-be, Zimmerman (not sure if he's a racist or not but he sure had a chip on his shoulder) is arrested and tried.
BTW, here's an interesting article from today's paper regarding the tragedy:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/na…
Granted, appearances do mean much in this country ("one never gets a second chance at a first impression") but it never should mean the right to harm or kill someone ever.
Alas, sporting a "hoodie" has long had an unfortunate perception ("hidden thuggery" or "threat") especially upon young black males. No human deserves a vile and vicious act put upon him or her as a result of what they wear. But, young people might want to reconsider their attire. You're counseling your son well.
I don't believe your last paragraph has anything to do with the Trayvon Martin tragedy though and I'm uneasy with the sentence that begins "In this country, racist cops..." Racist cops are brought to justice in this country if the matter is pursued thoroughly. Just as I hope, a cop-wanna-be, Zimmerman (not sure if he's a racist or not but he sure had a chip on his shoulder) is arrested and tried.
BTW, here's an interesting article from today's paper regarding the tragedy:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/na…
21
@18
If what you wore determined whether you'd be a victim of a crime then no woman wearing a burqa would ever be raped.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa
"This wasn't a poor 12 year old kid gunned down at the playground, it was a 17 yr old who threw up a hoodie and ran, this was more provocation than John Willams gave Ian Birk, who was acquitted by a jury btw."
Running from a pursuer is not "provocation" in normal circumstances.
And that is the problem here. With the "Stand Your Ground" law, just about ANYTHING that Martin could do would be "provocation".
Run away? That's provocation.
Stand? That's provocation.
Move towards Zimmerman? That's provocation.
If what you wore determined whether you'd be a victim of a crime then no woman wearing a burqa would ever be raped.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa
"This wasn't a poor 12 year old kid gunned down at the playground, it was a 17 yr old who threw up a hoodie and ran, this was more provocation than John Willams gave Ian Birk, who was acquitted by a jury btw."
Running from a pursuer is not "provocation" in normal circumstances.
And that is the problem here. With the "Stand Your Ground" law, just about ANYTHING that Martin could do would be "provocation".
Run away? That's provocation.
Stand? That's provocation.
Move towards Zimmerman? That's provocation.
22
@18
Provocation is a strong word. I'm curious: what advice would you give to a 17 year old on how to react to being stalked by a man 100 pounds bigger in an SUV? What should a 17yo do when that man gets out of his vehicle and confronts him w/ a gun? What should his parents do when the man who shot and killed their son goes home that night because the police see no reason to charge him for anything?
Provocation is a strong word. I'm curious: what advice would you give to a 17 year old on how to react to being stalked by a man 100 pounds bigger in an SUV? What should a 17yo do when that man gets out of his vehicle and confronts him w/ a gun? What should his parents do when the man who shot and killed their son goes home that night because the police see no reason to charge him for anything?
23
Charles, if you're teaching your son to live within this hateful system as a cog, never disturbing anything, playing exactly by the rules, then you're part of the problem.
25
Everyone should do what they can to avoid being the victim of violence and crime. That's not "blaming the victim" it's just common sense. It IS too bad that that's the way the human race is, but it is what it is. Humans believe they're a lot more evolved than they truly are. Humans are mostly primitive, fearful, selfish animals. We're barely a step above apes.
That said, Zimmerman is a murderer. A racist and a murderer. That seems pretty obvious. They're going to have a hard time finding an unbiased jury.
That said, Zimmerman is a murderer. A racist and a murderer. That seems pretty obvious. They're going to have a hard time finding an unbiased jury.
26
@19
"Law-abiding men of color are shot every day while not wearing hoodies."
While not an example of being shot ... case in point:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-5740…
There is, literally, nothing that a black man can do to prevent some bigot(s) from attacking him.
"Law-abiding men of color are shot every day while not wearing hoodies."
While not an example of being shot ... case in point:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-5740…
There is, literally, nothing that a black man can do to prevent some bigot(s) from attacking him.
27
@21 evoking burkas is hyperbole. Especially in this example. but I appreciate your need for a straw man.
Running from a pursuer is provocation, according to the supreme court : Illinois v. Wardlow, 120 S.Ct. 673 (2000)
Also, I don't get why everyone is trying to point to the stand your ground law as the source of this. Florida is a mess regardless. I get that the provision is new in florida and the dems hated it nationally when it got voted it, but stand your ground exists in nearly half of the US, including this one ( washington ) as well as castle provisions.
Running from a pursuer is provocation, according to the supreme court : Illinois v. Wardlow, 120 S.Ct. 673 (2000)
Also, I don't get why everyone is trying to point to the stand your ground law as the source of this. Florida is a mess regardless. I get that the provision is new in florida and the dems hated it nationally when it got voted it, but stand your ground exists in nearly half of the US, including this one ( washington ) as well as castle provisions.
28
So are we moving back to the 1950s south now? Blacks: keep your eyes down, mumble respectful words, don’t challenge whites, step off the sidewalk, don’t be seen, don’t get noticed.
I know you want to protect your kids; I see the fear that one word from your child, one stereotype exhibited, could mean their death. But even while warning your children, you shouldn’t accept that as standard. Teach your children to protect themselves, but don’t allow this particular murder to be overshadowed by Trayvon’s behavior or clothing.
I know you want to protect your kids; I see the fear that one word from your child, one stereotype exhibited, could mean their death. But even while warning your children, you shouldn’t accept that as standard. Teach your children to protect themselves, but don’t allow this particular murder to be overshadowed by Trayvon’s behavior or clothing.
29
I am a white male teacher, and it pains me to be the one that sometimes tells some of my black teen students this truth about needing to work harder than everyone else and presenting themselves precisely the way they want to be seen and understood in our racist world. I have fears that it sounds horrible coming out of my mouth, but I want my students to succeed so I tell the truth anyway. I hope I'm helping and not hurting.
30
@22 Your inventing a narrative. This is my main issue with the discussions about this incident, people keep imagining and filling in the holes with their own intent and racism.
Next day quarterbacking is fun though, but its not how our justice system works.
Everyone likes to get caught up on pieces of the story that were legal, in most if not all states.
neighborhood watch has no legal regulation
Zimmerman had a state issued CWP ( background check happened )
driving around your block asking people you don't recognize what they are doing
being overweight isn't a crime
The pieces we dont have is the actual altercation, we will never know if they got into it verbally before the struggle. We do know that Treyvon ran, we also know he didn't call the police himself.
The whole thing is sad, but the need for people to martyr this kid is even more so.
Next day quarterbacking is fun though, but its not how our justice system works.
Everyone likes to get caught up on pieces of the story that were legal, in most if not all states.
neighborhood watch has no legal regulation
Zimmerman had a state issued CWP ( background check happened )
driving around your block asking people you don't recognize what they are doing
being overweight isn't a crime
The pieces we dont have is the actual altercation, we will never know if they got into it verbally before the struggle. We do know that Treyvon ran, we also know he didn't call the police himself.
The whole thing is sad, but the need for people to martyr this kid is even more so.
31
@27
"evoking burkas is hyperbole. Especially in this example. but I appreciate your need for a straw man."
I think you need to look up what "straw man" is. And "hyperbole".
Clothing has nothing to do with whether a woman is raped.
The same as clothing has nothing to do with Zimmerman shooting Martin.
"Illinois v. Wardlow, 120 S.Ct. 673 (2000)"
Okay, you need to read that too. It is not "provocation". It can be reasonable suspicion for a COP to do a SEARCH. The COPS did NOT SHOOT the guy in that case.
"evoking burkas is hyperbole. Especially in this example. but I appreciate your need for a straw man."
I think you need to look up what "straw man" is. And "hyperbole".
Clothing has nothing to do with whether a woman is raped.
The same as clothing has nothing to do with Zimmerman shooting Martin.
"Illinois v. Wardlow, 120 S.Ct. 673 (2000)"
Okay, you need to read that too. It is not "provocation". It can be reasonable suspicion for a COP to do a SEARCH. The COPS did NOT SHOOT the guy in that case.
32
Every black child should have to take a class on how to deescalate situations with crazed racist scumbags. Also, karate. Deescalate, get in close, and then WHAM!, one less crazed cracker.
33
How about this?
We leave the latch open on Colton Harris and Billy Chambers jail cells, and a seaplane with enough fuel to make Florida in the courtyard.
We leave the latch open on Colton Harris and Billy Chambers jail cells, and a seaplane with enough fuel to make Florida in the courtyard.
34
@30
Okay, scrap the narrative. I'd still like to know what your advice to a 17yo in a situation like this would be. Keep your hood off? Don't run? Call the police and wait?
Okay, scrap the narrative. I'd still like to know what your advice to a 17yo in a situation like this would be. Keep your hood off? Don't run? Call the police and wait?
36
I think Charles' point might be, as a parent, you can wish it weren't so, but you need to take steps to keep your kids safe. I fervently wish it weren't so, but I don't blame you one bit for telling your son to avoid hoodies. You aren't responsible for the world we live in, you're just trying to see your kids into adulthood.
37
@34
How about this?
Don't run away.
Don't approach.
Don't stand there.
Sit down on the ground with your hands up, loudly repeating your name and requests to call 911. Yeah, there's no way that would provoke someone with a macho fantasy or a racist.
I think the core problem here is lack of control. Since you cannot control the actions of racists (or even protect yourself) then you start thinking of ways that you can change what you do in an attempt to appease them or to get them to ignore you. Appeasement does not work. They look for victims that appear vulnerable.
But if you do NOT appear vulnerable then you are a "threat".
If you go for safety in numbers then you are a "gang" and the cops get involved.
How about this?
Don't run away.
Don't approach.
Don't stand there.
Sit down on the ground with your hands up, loudly repeating your name and requests to call 911. Yeah, there's no way that would provoke someone with a macho fantasy or a racist.
I think the core problem here is lack of control. Since you cannot control the actions of racists (or even protect yourself) then you start thinking of ways that you can change what you do in an attempt to appease them or to get them to ignore you. Appeasement does not work. They look for victims that appear vulnerable.
But if you do NOT appear vulnerable then you are a "threat".
If you go for safety in numbers then you are a "gang" and the cops get involved.
38
@meanie #18,#27,#30
I get the impression that you have not heard the 911 tapes, including those where you can hear Treyvon screaming in the background before he is shot. Even if Treyvon instigated and escalated the confrontation, I have no doubt he was stalked and killed. I am still haunted by the sound.
Also, the stand-your-ground laws are relatively new, and as you noted wide-spread. I am less troubled by the castle doctrine, but cases of people being shot for simply knocking on someone's door are piling up. I think that once we get over the action-movie excitement phase, we as a society will probably realize that we really do want people to try to diffuse and deescalate a situation before erupting into deadly force. I think we'll notice that the streets are not filled with one-dimensional villains and forgettable mooks who exist only to be brought to swift justice. Real people, some of them worse than others, and otherwise innocent bystanders are dying. I'm sure we'll also find some people using these laws as a shield for attacks that we would not condone. It's a bad and dangerous law, and I think we can exonerate people genuinely protecting themselves and others with better laws and policies.
Ultimately, this tragedy is both a test-case and an opportunity to discuss this aspect of society and the laws and justice we have and to which we aspire. Perhaps George Zimmerman is getting improperly represented in the court of public opinion, and may not receive a just verdict, but as he has already demonstrated, he's prepared to use deadly force to defend himself.
@paulus22 #29, It sounds like you mean well, but if you say that to my black children, I believe I will attempt to get you fired.
I get the impression that you have not heard the 911 tapes, including those where you can hear Treyvon screaming in the background before he is shot. Even if Treyvon instigated and escalated the confrontation, I have no doubt he was stalked and killed. I am still haunted by the sound.
Also, the stand-your-ground laws are relatively new, and as you noted wide-spread. I am less troubled by the castle doctrine, but cases of people being shot for simply knocking on someone's door are piling up. I think that once we get over the action-movie excitement phase, we as a society will probably realize that we really do want people to try to diffuse and deescalate a situation before erupting into deadly force. I think we'll notice that the streets are not filled with one-dimensional villains and forgettable mooks who exist only to be brought to swift justice. Real people, some of them worse than others, and otherwise innocent bystanders are dying. I'm sure we'll also find some people using these laws as a shield for attacks that we would not condone. It's a bad and dangerous law, and I think we can exonerate people genuinely protecting themselves and others with better laws and policies.
Ultimately, this tragedy is both a test-case and an opportunity to discuss this aspect of society and the laws and justice we have and to which we aspire. Perhaps George Zimmerman is getting improperly represented in the court of public opinion, and may not receive a just verdict, but as he has already demonstrated, he's prepared to use deadly force to defend himself.
@paulus22 #29, It sounds like you mean well, but if you say that to my black children, I believe I will attempt to get you fired.
39
@34 thats fair enough, but again I can only tell you what I was taught and I have been in these situations before, also I haven't been shot, even by people with confederate flags in lifted trucks, nor the cops, and I managed to stay out of jail... ymmv
Anecdotal opinion:
Pretty much exactly as I would treat the cops, with a couple of exceptions. I would address any questions, and try to avoid a altercation. If pressed I would offer to call the police, and let the dude know I was moving to a more public area, like back to the store.
Anecdotal opinion:
Pretty much exactly as I would treat the cops, with a couple of exceptions. I would address any questions, and try to avoid a altercation. If pressed I would offer to call the police, and let the dude know I was moving to a more public area, like back to the store.
40
#36
What?
This isn't like a momma bear sending a bear cub into the woods to find honey on its own for the first time and hoping for the best.
This Manmade Prejudice and a Racist System operating against a particular form of child.
You are responsible, if you are hurt by that system unfairly, for destroying that system.
More so as a parent.
You should be destroying it.
Each and every day...because it hurts your family.
41
While what happened to Trayvon is an outrage, it's a relatively rare one compared to the many thousands of stop-and-searches that happen every day. A black boy is a suspect at all times. You don't have to get shot to prove this is true; you just have to look around you. And for every stop-and-search or ID check or just the casual "we're watching you" conversation, there are another thousand people who react, startle, cross the street, etc.
42
@40
I'm a black parent. If you feel it is my responsibility to destroy the system, how do you recommend I do so?
I'm a black parent. If you feel it is my responsibility to destroy the system, how do you recommend I do so?
43
"..he has to work twice as hard as the average white kid."
The ability to robotically repeat and repeat and repeat the memes of the entertainment industry is only indicative that you should apply for one of those jobs-for-life at NPR, PRI or APM, assuming you are willing to jettison any and all ethics and morals.
The phrase should be:
"He has to be just as crooked and dishonest as the white kid."
The ability to robotically repeat and repeat and repeat the memes of the entertainment industry is only indicative that you should apply for one of those jobs-for-life at NPR, PRI or APM, assuming you are willing to jettison any and all ethics and morals.
The phrase should be:
"He has to be just as crooked and dishonest as the white kid."
44
I'm sure this has been brought up elsewhere, but the way I read the law, an African-American in Florida in possession of a legally-owned gun can shoot anyone flying a confederate flag. Right? I mean, the flag, by definition, poses a threat to non-whites and non-protestants.
46
Yeah, why are we so passively accepting the racism in the world? That's just the way it is and we have to along with it? How about enacting and enforcing laws that protect minorities and holding offenders responsinble for their racist actions? Going along with it didn't get us Brown vs. the board of education and the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
47
This statement alone leads me to believe that you haven't been following this case at all. Have you even seen photos of Trayvon Martin? He was a ridiculously wholesome-looking kid. He would be All American if he weren't black. And that's the crux of it. The only thing that made him look suspicious was the color of his skin. His wide-eyed, chubby-cheeked innocence didn't remotely matter to that murderous scumbag.
Ian Birk was never tried in a court of law.
it was a 17 yr old who threw up a hoodie and ran
This statement alone leads me to believe that you haven't been following this case at all. Have you even seen photos of Trayvon Martin? He was a ridiculously wholesome-looking kid. He would be All American if he weren't black. And that's the crux of it. The only thing that made him look suspicious was the color of his skin. His wide-eyed, chubby-cheeked innocence didn't remotely matter to that murderous scumbag.
this was more provocation than John Willams gave Ian Birk, who was acquitted by a jury btw.
Ian Birk was never tried in a court of law.
48
@46: Because changing ingrained racism in a huge, wide-spread society takes generations, and people walking the streets do not have that long to wait, and should not be expected to put themselves in greater personal danger just to prove a point.
You may as well have told the English not to hide from the German bombs because the war would end someday and they were just prolonging the war by showing their fear.
Hyperbole perhaps, but please don't expect rhetorical gold on my half-hour lunch break.
You may as well have told the English not to hide from the German bombs because the war would end someday and they were just prolonging the war by showing their fear.
Hyperbole perhaps, but please don't expect rhetorical gold on my half-hour lunch break.
50
Oh Supreme Ruler, I don't think it's an "either-or." You can continue to fight to eradicate the awful reality of prejudice while also advising your children to be prudent.
51
@49: When I see young black men in hoodies coming towards me, I act pretty much the same as if they were old white women. Seriously, man, get a grip, you fucking paranoid racist pansy cracker.
52
#7, Well, if it makes you feel any better, Charles, when a cop (or any man) rapes a woman, he is merely considered a rogue individual, not a representative of the systematic hatred and oppression of women that very obviously also exists in America.
So that's how that works.
So that's how that works.
53
And when a (caucasian person) (commits a criminal act), s/he is merely considered a rogue individual, not a representative of the (entire black race) of individuals that exist in America.
So that's how that works.
So that's how that works.
55
@27: Learn to read, please. Illinois v. Wardlow says that if you suddenly run away from someone you know to be a police officer, for no apparent reason, in a known high crime area, then that can possibly, under certain circumstances, provide the officer with enough reasonable suspicion to stop you and search you. It doesn't mean that any random Joe can decide to chase you through his gated neighborhood because he decides he doesn't like the look of you, and it certainly doesn't give that random Joe sufficient provocation (which is not the same as reasonable suspicion or even probable cause--it's a separate legal concept entirely) to shoot you.
56
#53, I'm not disagreeing with you. I've been following the story and am horrified by what happened.
I just wish women were also considered victims of hate crimes so that we can start recognizing the crimes committed against them for what they are and rallying behind protecting them, as well. Charles's remarks @7 were dismissive and imply that black men are more victimized than women in this country.
I just wish women were also considered victims of hate crimes so that we can start recognizing the crimes committed against them for what they are and rallying behind protecting them, as well. Charles's remarks @7 were dismissive and imply that black men are more victimized than women in this country.
57
Black men are victimized mainly by black men.
As Chris Rock said, "I love black people, I hate n******"
As Chris Rock said, "I love black people, I hate n******"
58
@27: The case you cite has to do with running from a cop, which can be considered can be a provocation, sure, but I've never heard of running from a private citizen being considered a provocation, at least not judicially.
@All the commenters who thinks Charles is being a wuss for not sacrificing his child on the altar of a better society: I live in a college town and advise my daughters to stay away from drunken fraternity boys, run from them if necessary. I guess I'm not doing enough to dismantle the American phallocracy.
@All the commenters who thinks Charles is being a wuss for not sacrificing his child on the altar of a better society: I live in a college town and advise my daughters to stay away from drunken fraternity boys, run from them if necessary. I guess I'm not doing enough to dismantle the American phallocracy.
59
@54: Keep living in fear of those scary, scary Negro people. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
61
@29 I think you are hurting rather than helping. There are psychological studies showing that when you tell somebody things will be difficult to them due to their gender/race/whatever, they tend to perform more poorly than people who are not told such things. Here is the wikipedia article on it. Look at the graph! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_…
Quote from that article: "Individuals show stronger stereotype threat effects when they want to do well on the task, identify strongly with the stereotyped group, or EXPECT DISCRIMINATION due to the negative stereotype."
If you want to help black kids, tell them to study together in groups. That is what asian kids do. Self-reliance is overrated.
Quote from that article: "Individuals show stronger stereotype threat effects when they want to do well on the task, identify strongly with the stereotyped group, or EXPECT DISCRIMINATION due to the negative stereotype."
If you want to help black kids, tell them to study together in groups. That is what asian kids do. Self-reliance is overrated.
62
Yes, Yes, Yes!!! Charles what you say is so sad and so true. We must teach are children about the world we live in, not the world we have the right to live in.
The fact that many posters are acting is if Charles is being unreasonable just reinforces to me the joys of white privilege. Black people are not that lucky.
The fact that many posters are acting is if Charles is being unreasonable just reinforces to me the joys of white privilege. Black people are not that lucky.
63
There's a sensible conversation to have but Rivera's statement that "the hoodie is as much responsible for Trayvon Martin's death as George Zimmerman was" is fucking insane, and it is NOT helping the problem.
64
It's not fair but it's true ...and it's getting closer to fair with every generation that passes.
Children should be taught both real and ideal, so that they know that people are on their side and that there's something worth working for in the future.
Children should be taught both real and ideal, so that they know that people are on their side and that there's something worth working for in the future.
65
Does this "Stand Your Ground" law remind anyone else of that Southpark Episode where they could only shoot animals after they said "he's coming right for us"? Seems like a bad law, honestly. It was just a matter of time until something like this happened.
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