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News & ArtsWednesday, March 28, 2012
City They Said New Parking Rates Are Killing Downtown Restaurants!!
Posted by Dominic Holden on Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 1:22 PM
That was the cry yesterday of the restaurant association. That was the cry last month of the Seattle Times, which reported "the longer parking-meter hours that started in August have cut business by as much as 50 percent." Even back in 2010, when the mayor and Seattle City Council considered raising parking rates and extending evening meter hours, that was the cry from editorial writers.
But now that the parking scheme is in effect, that's not the cry of people who are, you know, actually looking at the data. Take it away, Sightline Institute:
- DATA How do they fuckin' work?
"After paid parking hours were extended in mid-2011, gross receipts for downtown restaurants climbed by 5.4 percent," writes Eric de Place, contradicting the restaurant-industry claim that charging for "on-street parking until 8 p.m. hits them where it hurts our businesses the most: their wallets." More data—including a zip-code-by-zip-code breakdown—is over at the Daily Sightline.
Why the parking paradox?
The leading theory—how higher and longer rates can correlate with more business—is exactly what the city predicted when it raised the rates. Eliminating free parking during prime dining hours actually discourages drivers from abandoning their cars in parking spaces all night, thereby promoting parking-space turnover and helping customers to find parking where they need it most: downtown.
30
Sorry to jump in late here - but I own a couple of restaurants, am a member of the Washington Restaurant Association and Seattle Restaurant Alliance, and I supported and still support the extended time for paid parking. And, in my experience and observation of my peers, I have seen an increase in business over last year. I don't credit that to parking though. The economy is recovering and people are spending more money. We could get into a lengthy analysis here, but I noticed an increase in business both in neighborhoods where parking rates decreased and increased, during the hours they were extended, and during the hours when the rates had been in effect.
And I also agree that the restaurant industry needs to be careful with what they oppose. Credibility will wane.
And I also agree that the restaurant industry needs to be careful with what they oppose. Credibility will wane.
29
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA FACTS HIS HIS HIS THESE ARE SO TOTALLY THE DEVIL
More like finally. You mean people don't make decisions entirely by how the Seattle Times feels about something that doesn't effect any of the people commenting on it? As someone who has lived in this city all his life this was painfully obvious, even with the hike it can be cheaper to drive than take the bus to some places, ESPECIALLY IF YOU CARPOOL. I mean, THIS WAS A FLUKE CLEARLY CONSUMERS JUST NEED TO BE TOLD HOW TO FEEL GOING FORWARD.
More like finally. You mean people don't make decisions entirely by how the Seattle Times feels about something that doesn't effect any of the people commenting on it? As someone who has lived in this city all his life this was painfully obvious, even with the hike it can be cheaper to drive than take the bus to some places, ESPECIALLY IF YOU CARPOOL. I mean, THIS WAS A FLUKE CLEARLY CONSUMERS JUST NEED TO BE TOLD HOW TO FEEL GOING FORWARD.
28
Ugh, the last thing we city needs to do is spend millions per year to subsidize parking for the Cheezcake Factory and Chipotle. Do these people have no shame?
98% of the county has plentiful free parking and nice wide roads. Please go there if you need someone to provide your business with free real estate. Please.
98% of the county has plentiful free parking and nice wide roads. Please go there if you need someone to provide your business with free real estate. Please.
27
@26, you're lying again, for no reason that anyone can discern. If these imaginary people you know took the 5, which I have done, they would presumably stay on it all the way to Yesler, where it stops not far from Occidental Park where the march starts. Why would anyone hop into the bus tunnel and wait for another bus when they are already on one that goes right there? Or, if you're bored by the traffic on Third, get off and walk -- downtown is an interesting place to walk. Bus tunnel, for chrissakes. You've never been on the 5, I'll bet. You're a lying fool.
We have taken the bus before, including the 5, but we're closer to the 358, which is fine for the trip there, but I really dislike waiting for and riding that one in particular on the way back. I hate waiting for any bus, actually, and all that walking to our far-ish lot means that we make a clean getaway, unlike the fools who park in the stadium lot and are lucky to get out of it an hour and a half later. The ones I really feel sorry for are the people who arrive on Amtrak just as the game ends, and then get into a waiting cab and sit motionless for an hour or more.
For a day game walking back to the lot means going past the tea room in the Pacific Hotel, which is the nicest place for a cup of tea in the city. But you enjoy your bus tunnel there.
We have taken the bus before, including the 5, but we're closer to the 358, which is fine for the trip there, but I really dislike waiting for and riding that one in particular on the way back. I hate waiting for any bus, actually, and all that walking to our far-ish lot means that we make a clean getaway, unlike the fools who park in the stadium lot and are lucky to get out of it an hour and a half later. The ones I really feel sorry for are the people who arrive on Amtrak just as the game ends, and then get into a waiting cab and sit motionless for an hour or more.
For a day game walking back to the lot means going past the tea room in the Pacific Hotel, which is the nicest place for a cup of tea in the city. But you enjoy your bus tunnel there.
26
You park for Sounders games, @23?
Everyone I know takes the 5 bus and hops into the bus tunnel or if in the U Dist gets any of the 7xX series straight there.
Saves a bunch. Then you can take as long as you want at a restaurant in the ID. Less walking than if you park.
Everyone I know takes the 5 bus and hops into the bus tunnel or if in the U Dist gets any of the 7xX series straight there.
Saves a bunch. Then you can take as long as you want at a restaurant in the ID. Less walking than if you park.
25
@3, do you usually eat dinner before 6:00? That's the only way the later meter times could possibly affect you. If you park after that, your space will go off-meter before your payment expires, so what's the problem? And in my experience people who eat dinner at 4 or 5 o'clock are going to be finished long before their two hours are up.
Most people who are upset by this haven't thought out their own situation logically.
Most people who are upset by this haven't thought out their own situation logically.
24
Let's see... a meal anywhere downtown is going to be at least $10 a head. Twenty and up if it's somewhere fancy. That's $20 per couple for cheap Chinese in the ID. Forty or fifty and up for something you'd take a date to.
An extra 3 or 5 to park the family trickster doesn't really sway the decision that much. What does sway it is availability -- knowing I can get a space. And if it's priced right, a space will be available.
In other words, the Times and the restaurant owners are blowing smoke.
An extra 3 or 5 to park the family trickster doesn't really sway the decision that much. What does sway it is availability -- knowing I can get a space. And if it's priced right, a space will be available.
In other words, the Times and the restaurant owners are blowing smoke.
23
I think it was Seattle Transit Blog that pointed out the source of the complaining: restaurant STAFF. They used to be able to show up at 4:01 and park, and the spot would go off-meter at 6:00, and they could stay there all night until midnight when their shift ended, or even later. Now, they have to go feed the meter at 6:00, or park in a lot. Same with lunch staff -- they have to feed the meter one more time.
But that's not what street parking is for. Street parking is for customers.
I don't mind even though it's hit us -- we park in the ID for Sounders games, and we can't wait til 6:00 if we want to go to the March to the Match, which starts at 6:00. So we park in our secret $5 lot, and it's no big deal. That hill is a lot steeper after a loss, though!
But that's not what street parking is for. Street parking is for customers.
I don't mind even though it's hit us -- we park in the ID for Sounders games, and we can't wait til 6:00 if we want to go to the March to the Match, which starts at 6:00. So we park in our secret $5 lot, and it's no big deal. That hill is a lot steeper after a loss, though!
21
and if you're that worried about parking, park somewhere cheap and hop on the light rail to the ID - there's a free tunnel right there!
20
People are shifting to more walking, more biking, and more transit.
It's only the whiny old suburbanites that complain about car parking.
And their one percenters who regard parking fees as a tax in a state that subsidizes one percenters at the expense of everyone else.
It's only the whiny old suburbanites that complain about car parking.
And their one percenters who regard parking fees as a tax in a state that subsidizes one percenters at the expense of everyone else.
18
@15, please feel free to provide data, numbers, or other forms of hard evidence to support your conclusion.
Oh, right.
Oh, right.
17
What's probably happening is that parking rates have very little effect at all, positively or negatively, on restaurants and other businesses. Because there is a slow economic recovery happening right now, it makes sense that folks are seeing more customers walk through their doors.
The parking rates changes have not prevented that growth from happening, which does disprove the claim that the changes were bad for business.
The parking rates changes have not prevented that growth from happening, which does disprove the claim that the changes were bad for business.
15
Sightline is playing fast and loose with the numbers and cherrypicking data. And Dominic, being a stupid fucking credulous hack, swallows it all.
13
@2,
Since the bar/restaurant industry is so volatile, it stands to reason that many individual bars saw declining business after the smoking ban, simply because they were in a bad location, they were offering something customers didn't particularly want, they had crappy service and/or drinks; all things that would have caused declining business without the smoking ban.
It's easier for business owners who are losing customers to put it on a scapegoat rather than take responsibility for it.
Since the bar/restaurant industry is so volatile, it stands to reason that many individual bars saw declining business after the smoking ban, simply because they were in a bad location, they were offering something customers didn't particularly want, they had crappy service and/or drinks; all things that would have caused declining business without the smoking ban.
It's easier for business owners who are losing customers to put it on a scapegoat rather than take responsibility for it.
12
You know why I don't go to restaurants downtown? BECAUSE I DON'T LIVE DOWNTOWN. If parking is a limiting factor, it seems to me that that means an area is badly oversaturated with eateries.
11
@1 notwithstanding, one's basic sense of economics might lead one to believe that a valuable thing that is free will be immediately consumed to capacity, while the same valuable thing, if priced more appropriately, will more often have some available supply.
9
In this case @1, the key factor for businesses is turnover of parking spaces, not necessarily parking itself, which, as the article states, is exactly what extending paid parking until 8:00 p.m. has accomplished.
Having hundreds or even thousands of parking spaces doesn't help businesses, if cars just sit in the same stalls for hours on-end, because drivers have no incentive to move and make way for other customers of those same businesses.
Having hundreds or even thousands of parking spaces doesn't help businesses, if cars just sit in the same stalls for hours on-end, because drivers have no incentive to move and make way for other customers of those same businesses.
8
@5 Thanks for the work you do. Yes, this isn't conclusive data, but it definitely helps elevate the discussion out of a swamp of anecdotal arguments.
Not that anecdotes shouldn't factor in--but for the kind of claims the restaurants and ST editorial board are making, quantitative information is sorely needed.
Not that anecdotes shouldn't factor in--but for the kind of claims the restaurants and ST editorial board are making, quantitative information is sorely needed.
7
Restaurants were/are hard hit by the slow-to-recover recession, so of course they are braying about business. Parking costs are a decent scapegoat.
Also, having worked for a fair share of restaurants in my youth, I can categorically tell you that restaurant managers and owners ain't the sharpest knives in the drawer.
Also, having worked for a fair share of restaurants in my youth, I can categorically tell you that restaurant managers and owners ain't the sharpest knives in the drawer.
6
I've always been astounded by the speed with which restaurateurs blame someone else (parking meters, smoking bans, drunks, health dep't regs) for their problems, rather than finding creative solutions. Concerning parking in the ID: why doesn't the neighborhood offer valet parking? Two or three drop-off points would be great, and restaurants could rebate part of the fees.
5
There are a million factors at work and a million ways to parse the data. Mostly what I'm trying to do is inject some relevant data into what has so far been basically and evidence-free argument. If business is so awful, those folks need to provide some actual numbers to support their assertions. So far, every piece of evidence I've uncovered suggests precisely the opposite of what they're saying.
Once we start using actual data then we can move on to evaluating other factors at play and trying to assess causality. But first, we just need some evidence!
Eric de Place
Sightline Institute
Once we start using actual data then we can move on to evaluating other factors at play and trying to assess causality. But first, we just need some evidence!
Eric de Place
Sightline Institute
4
I'm not sure I believe that chart is all that conclusive. As it shows, in past years, the gross receipts show a small increase year over year. That with the paid parking time ending at 6PM. The increase from 2010 to 2011 looks to be on par with previous years increases. However, given that the number of hours that parking is charged has increased by two (during prime mealtime hours), I would expect a much larger increase in the amount collected if the number of people coming to park stayed the same given the expanded hours in which they now have to pay. Given that it hasn't increased relative to the expansion of hours, you could theorize that restaurant attendance is actually down due to (or at least related to) the increased hours in which parking is charged.
3
Confounding factors of economic recession and turnover?
Of course, all the later hours have done is make it so that if I'm going to eat in Seattle it is much later than before.
Of course, all the later hours have done is make it so that if I'm going to eat in Seattle it is much later than before.
2
Similar to the smoking ban of a few years ago, when bar owners were claiming that their business was tanking. Some gullible folks, like me, accepted their statements as true, since it fit expectations. Then, when you look at the numbers compiled by the 'tax man', you find out the opposite is true.
Are these business owners just lying jerks, or idiots that can't count their own tills?
Are these business owners just lying jerks, or idiots that can't count their own tills?
1
Hilarious.
So you just proved that like any exurb in the world, the key factor for business is the availability of parking.
Welcome to Southcenter, urbards.
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