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News & ArtsThursday, May 3, 2012
Parenting Issues / Religion / LGBTQITSLFA Me and Pastor Harris
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, May 3, 2012 at 9:47 AM
The pastor who advised the dads of effeminate four-year-old boys to "man up" and crack their sons' limp wrists and punch those little pansies apologized yesterday and claimed that he was only joking. (His congregation did laugh at the thought of a four-year-old having his limp wrists broken by his dad.) Today Pastor Harris tweets...
Well, Pastor Harris, I'm having a similar problem with those who are supposed to turn the other cheek, love their enemies, forgive "not seven times, but seventy-seven times," etc. Maybe you and I should start a support group? (Via JoeMyGod.)
3
From a Christian standpoint, wouldn't "those who are supposed to be the most tolerant" be Christians? Therefore, it's Christians who think his apology is insincere.
But I bet he's referring to what he would term the "PC crowd," as if the onus of responsibility for his assery is on liberals and progressives and not on him.
But I bet he's referring to what he would term the "PC crowd," as if the onus of responsibility for his assery is on liberals and progressives and not on him.
4
Name for support group: Victims of Intolerant Other Americans. Total membership = population of the USA.
5
Why is it always "joking"?
Which is worse:
1. Honestly believing that you should punch your child for non-appropriate (in your opinion) behavior.
2. Thinking that saying you should punch your child for non-appropriate (in your opinion) behavior is funny.
At least if you honestly believe it you can still feel that it is bad but not worse than the alternative.
(And of course they are both worse than thinking that punching your kid in the first place is unacceptable. Unless I spell that out someone is going to be confused.)
Which is worse:
1. Honestly believing that you should punch your child for non-appropriate (in your opinion) behavior.
2. Thinking that saying you should punch your child for non-appropriate (in your opinion) behavior is funny.
At least if you honestly believe it you can still feel that it is bad but not worse than the alternative.
(And of course they are both worse than thinking that punching your kid in the first place is unacceptable. Unless I spell that out someone is going to be confused.)
6
"Nothing is good enough" is what people say when they are unwilling to actually make amends. If you use your position as a spiritual leader to condone violence towards innocent children, then "sorry" doesn't cut it. If he wants his apology to be taken seriously, he needs to back it up by taking some time to preach nonviolence towards those people his followers may not understand and unconditional love and acceptance towards all children.
Apologies without actions to support them are hollow. His complaints make him seem lazy, insincere, and infantile - a lovely addition to hateful, bigoted, and domineering.
Apologies without actions to support them are hollow. His complaints make him seem lazy, insincere, and infantile - a lovely addition to hateful, bigoted, and domineering.
7
When I listened to his rant--complete with straining, cracking voice--I though it was hilarious...wait, not hilarious, what's the word I'm thinking of...disgusting that's it.
10
Fuck, I take it back. I don't really want to ignite another "what the Bible says" comment war. 77 is fine. Just... whatever.
11
Evangelical sermons often devolve into a stream-of-consciousness monologue, heavy on cliche and hackneyed phrases, but also a strong indicator of the general temperment of the speaker. Just because it was said in a jesting manner doesn't mean he disbelieves it, in fact, quite the opposite.
13
"Nothing is good enough" is what people say when they are unwilling to actually make amends.Be fair. It's also what people say when they were not only willing to make amends, did, and then, lo and behold, nothing was actually good enough. Dan's experiences over BS-gate and the experiences of anybody who has ever run afoul of an ideological pressure group at college stand as examples.
16
Dan should be thanking this Harris guy. His offensive comments are the only thing that got Dan's offensive comments out of the news cycle.
23
He said he was joking, and then another instance said his comments were chopped up and taken out of context. Sen. Al Franken has a saying for just this occasion: the only way this could have been taken out of context is if it were immediately preceded with "I would have to be a fucking nut to say--"
25
Maybe we should crack his wrists! Wouldn't that be hilarious?!
Ha! Ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
Ha! Ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
26
Generally, my reaction to men like Pastor Harris is "What a pussy." It's sad when people put their own insecurities about their own gender identity on display like that. (Not to mention their misogyny - I wasn't aware that the imaginary Lord's greatest wish for me was for me to be "attractive.") Because when you fuss over it that much, well, you're obviously dealing with some issues.
I always think in these scenarios of my friend's husband, a former Marine, who enjoys regular facials and my ex - a large, tattooed biker -, who thought an ideal afternoon was tea and cookies with me and my chick friends. Two guys who know what they like and don't care if someone sees it as "inappropriate" for their gender. Way more manly than Pastor Harris dribbling out his insecurities as he exhorts violence against children.
I always think in these scenarios of my friend's husband, a former Marine, who enjoys regular facials and my ex - a large, tattooed biker -, who thought an ideal afternoon was tea and cookies with me and my chick friends. Two guys who know what they like and don't care if someone sees it as "inappropriate" for their gender. Way more manly than Pastor Harris dribbling out his insecurities as he exhorts violence against children.
27
"I'm sorry if my remarks offended anybody," is NOT an apology! It's saying he's sorry that we are upset over what he said, not that he's sorry for saying a parent should "crack" a four-year old's wrist or punch them. He "still stands by his remarks," remember, so he is still OK with punching a four-year old. He's just sorry you didn't see the humor or necessity of it.
What an ass! As somebody with a painful illness, I do not wish ill on another, but there is a part of me that would like to see this guy punched a few times by very large burly men. They could also break his wrists while telling him he's not "manly" enough. Maybe then HE would "get it".
And I agree with @3, when the pastor was saying that those who are supposed to be most tolerant aren't accepting his apology, my first thought was, "aren't Christians supposed to be the most tolerant and loving?" When I was a child, growing up in an evangelical house, I remember one of the songs we sand in Sunday school said, "And they will know we are Christians by our love." I guess not, according to the pastor's brand of Christianity.
BTW, why is he crying about us godless liberals not accepting his apology? I thought those of us who don't worship Jesus aren't worth their time and should leave the country?
And isn't it funny that when Dan apologizes (honestly and sincerely - he didn't say "I'm sorry you were offended by what I said" - he actually apologized for the words he used) for the use of "pansy-ass" and calling out some of the BS in the Bible that bully's conveniently forget while extolling the anti-gay sections, the Christian right starts frothing at the mouth and rejects Dan's apology. Aren't they supposed to forgive and turn the other cheek?
But, when a pastor says that a parent has a Biblical obligation to harm their non-gender conforming child, and we liberals don't accept his half-assed, "I'm sorry I offended you," apology, the Christian right starts screaming about how we liberals aren't tolerant enough.
Maybe we are only showing them the same level of love and tolerance that they show us? Do you not reap what you sow?
More...
What an ass! As somebody with a painful illness, I do not wish ill on another, but there is a part of me that would like to see this guy punched a few times by very large burly men. They could also break his wrists while telling him he's not "manly" enough. Maybe then HE would "get it".
And I agree with @3, when the pastor was saying that those who are supposed to be most tolerant aren't accepting his apology, my first thought was, "aren't Christians supposed to be the most tolerant and loving?" When I was a child, growing up in an evangelical house, I remember one of the songs we sand in Sunday school said, "And they will know we are Christians by our love." I guess not, according to the pastor's brand of Christianity.
BTW, why is he crying about us godless liberals not accepting his apology? I thought those of us who don't worship Jesus aren't worth their time and should leave the country?
And isn't it funny that when Dan apologizes (honestly and sincerely - he didn't say "I'm sorry you were offended by what I said" - he actually apologized for the words he used) for the use of "pansy-ass" and calling out some of the BS in the Bible that bully's conveniently forget while extolling the anti-gay sections, the Christian right starts frothing at the mouth and rejects Dan's apology. Aren't they supposed to forgive and turn the other cheek?
But, when a pastor says that a parent has a Biblical obligation to harm their non-gender conforming child, and we liberals don't accept his half-assed, "I'm sorry I offended you," apology, the Christian right starts screaming about how we liberals aren't tolerant enough.
Maybe we are only showing them the same level of love and tolerance that they show us? Do you not reap what you sow?
28
Oh, and I'm in agreement with those who believe this pastor's original comments were incredibly creepy. To me they indicate that he likely has issues with his own sexuality. The part about how you can't allow children to have certain sexual fantasies was a huge red flag, and the parts about how girls are supposed to look, act and smell was mega-creepy.
29
@26, when you referred to the former marine who enjoys "facials," I was thinking of the other kind of facial, which would be funnier (and just as ok, if that's his thing).
And on a more serious note, I just wish someone in government, the IRS, the local property tax assessor, would start enforcing the law and strip these churches (and temples, mosques, etc.) of their tax exempt status once religious readers start tying these tirades into political propaganda.
I've never liked that religious institutions don't have to pay property taxes. But if we're going to adopt laws that give them tax exempt status, let's at least enforce the laws so my tax dollars aren't being used to subsidize hate speech outside the voting polls.
And on a more serious note, I just wish someone in government, the IRS, the local property tax assessor, would start enforcing the law and strip these churches (and temples, mosques, etc.) of their tax exempt status once religious readers start tying these tirades into political propaganda.
I've never liked that religious institutions don't have to pay property taxes. But if we're going to adopt laws that give them tax exempt status, let's at least enforce the laws so my tax dollars aren't being used to subsidize hate speech outside the voting polls.
30
In a VERY limited defense of Pastor Closet Case, it's possible he meant "crack that wrist" to mean slap or hit with intent to cause some pain to the skin, not damage the bones. I've heard the phrase used that way. This wouldn't matter if you're 100% against physical punishment, but might indicate a somewhat saner *level* of punishment.
Semi-related anecdote: my dad went to a Catholic high school (Regis in Denver) in the 40s, and he said one of his teachers would enforce class discipline by having students put their hand on the desk so he could hit it with a hefty wooden yardstick. If the stick broke, you had to buy him another. A different instructor would throw a very large ring of keys at the students. Good times.
Semi-related anecdote: my dad went to a Catholic high school (Regis in Denver) in the 40s, and he said one of his teachers would enforce class discipline by having students put their hand on the desk so he could hit it with a hefty wooden yardstick. If the stick broke, you had to buy him another. A different instructor would throw a very large ring of keys at the students. Good times.
31
His Facebook page now says on it that anyone posting comments not supporting the pastor will be deleted and banned.
Way to be inclusive Christians.
Way to be inclusive Christians.
32
Even if he were sincere in his explanation: apologies don't wipe the slate clean, and an apology hasn't demanded forgiveness since the 3rd grade.
Pastor Harris has laid his cards on the table, and nothing he's said since suggests there's been some misunderstanding.
Pastor Harris has laid his cards on the table, and nothing he's said since suggests there's been some misunderstanding.
33
Explaining away your boorishness with lies doesn't help your case. He must think that the commandment against bearing false witness doesn't count because it's in the Old Testament.
34
He cannot retract his words because he believes them with all his heart. Remember, this is the 'spare the rod, spoil the child' crowd, so a dab of corporal punishment is just what god ordered. If it can save one child from becoming queer or lesbo, it was worth the trip to the ER.
These are the parents whose kids off themselves when they realize they are gay or lesbian, but even that was fore-ordained by their Jeebus friend, so it's okay. These are the parents that tell their freshly-out kids- "I'd rather you had never been born that be gay".
People like this pastor and his flock make me sick.
These are the parents whose kids off themselves when they realize they are gay or lesbian, but even that was fore-ordained by their Jeebus friend, so it's okay. These are the parents that tell their freshly-out kids- "I'd rather you had never been born that be gay".
People like this pastor and his flock make me sick.
35
Actually, I was able to easily think of something that would be sufficient: don’t joke about beating up 4-year-olds to your congregation in the first place. Simple! And don't be a rotten and hateful enough person for it to be plausible that you weren't really joking.
Trust me; there’s a difference between Louis CK joking about beating up children [because he’d never REALLY do that] vs. a pastor “joking” about beating up effeminate children [because wouldn’t that be satisfying?].
Trust me; there’s a difference between Louis CK joking about beating up children [because he’d never REALLY do that] vs. a pastor “joking” about beating up effeminate children [because wouldn’t that be satisfying?].
36
Anyone who says "why should I have bothered to apologize" is admitting that their apology was insincere.
37
Plus, I’ve always been creeped out by fathers who obsess over how “attractive” their daughters are. Yuck.
38
Rent boy selling his story about his torrid nights with Pastor Harris strung up by his gonads and screaming "Squash me! Squash me like a cockroach!" to the media in 3...2...1...
40
@29, OMG, that had me giggling. Nope, don't think he's into that. But I will say, the man's skin is absolutely flawless.
41
There is no way, none at all, for an adult who seriously advocates punching, not slapping, not spanking, but parents punching a 4-year-old, as this man did, to find redemption, either here or in any other life. Well, maybe if he sold all his stuff, gave the money to the poor and walked barefoot across a desert.
That church needs them a new pastor.
That church needs them a new pastor.
42
That laughter does not exactly sound like the enthusiastic guffaws of those who wholeheartedly agree and support his views, but rather the amazed uncomfortable titters of those who can't be at ease with what they're hearing but are trying to burn off the awkwardness, the tension. Sure, there are also some bigots there, but it doesn't sound like there is a great deal of agreement. Kinda like the Germans around the concentration camps? Maybe, disregarding scale.
43
Dan - repeat after me ...
You...have...nothing...to...apologize...for!
By calling bullshit on the Bible, you are doing humanity a favor. I would go further & call bullshit on all organized religion ...but in this country, especially on Christianity - as its followers are not only willfully ignorant about the bizarre hatred spewed by their own Bible, but they are willfully ignorant of practices around the world.
These include Chistian missionaries who go to Africa to "civilize the savages" and "spread the Good News" - while in fact they are spreading hatred that is causing gay people & women to be persecuted - and worse. All Christians have blood on their hands for the atrocities now being committed in the name of "The Word of The Lord".
Enough of the tolerance for religion! ...Christianity through the ages has not shown any of its own, and does not deserve any now.
You...have...nothing...to...apologize...for!
By calling bullshit on the Bible, you are doing humanity a favor. I would go further & call bullshit on all organized religion ...but in this country, especially on Christianity - as its followers are not only willfully ignorant about the bizarre hatred spewed by their own Bible, but they are willfully ignorant of practices around the world.
These include Chistian missionaries who go to Africa to "civilize the savages" and "spread the Good News" - while in fact they are spreading hatred that is causing gay people & women to be persecuted - and worse. All Christians have blood on their hands for the atrocities now being committed in the name of "The Word of The Lord".
Enough of the tolerance for religion! ...Christianity through the ages has not shown any of its own, and does not deserve any now.
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