Slog
News & ArtsFriday, May 4, 2012
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: STFU, BTFO
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, May 4, 2012 at 4:02 PM
Not really sure where to start with my problem so I think I'll go chronologically. A friend of mine got married eight years ago to a pretty average guy. About a year ago she started having problems with her husband and she began to think he is cheating on her. His behavior drastically changed, he wants to spend more time with his friends and away from her, he snoops on her and accuses her of cheating—that sort of thing. Several of her other friends and myself agree that he probably is cheating, not to mention that we never really liked how he treated her anyway. So we told her to DTMFA. She said that she couldn't as long as there was any doubt in her mind about the cheating.
Recently our friend's ex-BF came back in the picture. He's a good guy, single, nice, good looking—a decent catch. Well, I just found out that my best friend and her ex have been sleeping together. I don't know exactly how long it's been going on, but knowing my friend it probably started as a revenge screw after she thought her husband was cheating. I haven't talked to my friend about it yet but I don't know what I would say even if I did. I like the new guy way better than her husband and personally think she should leave her husband regardless. There are no children involved. So I have a few questions for you:
1. Do I tell my friend that I know?
2. Should I support her in her cheating since her husband cheated first and the new/old guy is better?
3. I also sometimes hang out with her and her husband together, but I don't know if I can be expected to keep a secret like this.
4. What can I do? Because I feel like I should really step in somehow before she actually gets pregnant like she's trying to.
5. Last question, her husband just recently starting acting even more loving than he did before we suspected he was cheating, does this mean that he's done cheating and is trying to repair his marriage? you think he might have found out about her cheating? Or is there another option?
I haven't talked to her, her husband, or her BF since I found out and it's eating me up inside.
Know Too Much
My response after the jump...
···················
You describe this mess as "my problem," KTM, and I'm not sure why. It doesn't involve you. Bearing that in mind...
1. STFU and butt the fuck out.
2. STFU and butt the fuck out.
3. STFU and butt the fuck out.
4. STFU and butt the fuck out.
5. STFU and butt the fuck out.
3
It took me about three sentences before I was impressed with KTM's insane amount of free time to consider such matters as extensively as she does.
5
If the LW wants to maintain this friendship, she can be a sympathetic ear when the friend drops by, but otherwise, get the fuck out and away as soon as fucking possible. Unless there's other shit going on that the LW is actively involved in, which would probably make her a manipulator, she should just let things play out by themselves within the triangle. This sounds like a volatile set of relationships that the friend is involved in, and if the LW is in the mix when things go to shit, she's going to get the blame from the husband, the ex, or even the friend.
6
@3: It took me "Not really sure where to start" for me to realize this was going to be a trainwreck.
I don't know whether to be relieved or saddened that it didn't end with, "Does this mean I'm gay?"
I don't know whether to be relieved or saddened that it didn't end with, "Does this mean I'm gay?"
9
Oh, I seriously disagree with Dan on this one. That doesn't happen too often because not too much gets past him.
This situation has "over-manipulated" written all over it. Been there, done that. I bet MONEY that this poor LW was meant to 'find out.' Furthermore, I bet the LW's 'friend' is counting on her to say something and 'ruin her marriage' with 'lies.' The friend is no friend at all, she's just doffing off her responsibilities on the nearest available outsource. The LW is probably already in the red for having not gotten on with the role the friend laid out for her.
I think that the LW should just walk away. If the friend contacts her, the LW simply needs to say that she doesn't want to be involved until the dust settles. The friend will dig for more information. At that point, the LW needs to tell the friend that he/she isn't stupid and hang up/not writ eback.
Just walk away. No matter what you do, you'll be the bad guy at some point.
This situation has "over-manipulated" written all over it. Been there, done that. I bet MONEY that this poor LW was meant to 'find out.' Furthermore, I bet the LW's 'friend' is counting on her to say something and 'ruin her marriage' with 'lies.' The friend is no friend at all, she's just doffing off her responsibilities on the nearest available outsource. The LW is probably already in the red for having not gotten on with the role the friend laid out for her.
I think that the LW should just walk away. If the friend contacts her, the LW simply needs to say that she doesn't want to be involved until the dust settles. The friend will dig for more information. At that point, the LW needs to tell the friend that he/she isn't stupid and hang up/not writ eback.
Just walk away. No matter what you do, you'll be the bad guy at some point.
10
So the only sure things we know here are:
1. Your friends husband has been acting weird and distant and suspects his wife is cheating on him.
2. Your friend is cheating on her husband.
Everything else you suspect is just assumption and gossip. The facts seem to point to the idea that your friend might actually be the one at fault, however.
That said, Dan's advice is sound.
1. Your friends husband has been acting weird and distant and suspects his wife is cheating on him.
2. Your friend is cheating on her husband.
Everything else you suspect is just assumption and gossip. The facts seem to point to the idea that your friend might actually be the one at fault, however.
That said, Dan's advice is sound.
11
Excellent advice. Except maybe #4. I think this friend should advise her (?) friend to be really really sure she wants to stay with her husband before she gets pregnant. Aside from that, quit talking about each other behind each others' backs, quit analyzing every little move your friends make, or, more succinctly, stfu and btfo
13
I wonder if the letterwriter is an overweight and single female.
When I was younger, I noted that a woman's Fat Single Friend (TM) was always a problem in relationships. In my formulation, the Fat Single Friend was the fat, unattached friend of my buddies' girlfriends. The Fat Single Friend always seemed waaaaay too involved in the relationship between my buddies and their girlfriends, to the point where the Fat Single Friend was essentially an emotional threesome seeker. Whatever drama the FSF could not gin up on her own, but apparently needed, she sought via the friend's relationship. No snit or make-up between the two primary people would be complete without the FSF having her arms-akimbo confrontation with the boyfriend followed by some other follow-up.
The only cure for the Fat Single Friend problem was the girlfriend dumping one of the parties: either the boyfriend/buddy or the Fat Single Friend.
When I was younger, I noted that a woman's Fat Single Friend (TM) was always a problem in relationships. In my formulation, the Fat Single Friend was the fat, unattached friend of my buddies' girlfriends. The Fat Single Friend always seemed waaaaay too involved in the relationship between my buddies and their girlfriends, to the point where the Fat Single Friend was essentially an emotional threesome seeker. Whatever drama the FSF could not gin up on her own, but apparently needed, she sought via the friend's relationship. No snit or make-up between the two primary people would be complete without the FSF having her arms-akimbo confrontation with the boyfriend followed by some other follow-up.
The only cure for the Fat Single Friend problem was the girlfriend dumping one of the parties: either the boyfriend/buddy or the Fat Single Friend.
15
Tell your friend you know, and that you don't want to hang out with her husband anymore because you don't like having to keep this secret from him. Because their marriage? None of your business. Even if you like the bf better than the husband - you don't get a vote, and you certainly don't get to tell the husband, whom you don't like, news you know will hurt him. How did you even find out, anyway? And in such a way that your friend doesn't yet know you know? Because, keep in mind, whoever told you this could be making shit up.
16
Snowguy @13 is indeed harsh, and I'm not going to endorse "fat", but the type of person he's describing is real; the letter-writer is living vicariously through these other people. A lot of folks today seem to think they're living in a reality TV show, and lots of commentary is necessary. And drama must be indentified and worried, like a sore tooth, even if there isn't any drama there.
17
So you think she should have dumped her husband because he was (probably) cheating on her? But now you think maybe you should support her in (pretty much definitely) cheating on him? What a hypocritical POS you are.
(Okay, so you already gave your real reasons for wanting them to break up: you think the husband is "average" while the new guy is "a catch." So the whole cheating thing is a red herring in your book anyway. You just want to play some sort of twisted matchmaker from hell. Makes you even more of a POS.)
If anything, friend/wife just lost any right to take offense at her husband cheating. She just tacitly stipulated that cheating is an acceptable activity in her book. (Let's not forget, there was never proof that the husband cheated, only suspicions, while the wife's cheating is basically confirmed.)
Most especially, now that husband has started behaving better towards his wife, and their relationship is to all outward appearance in better shape now than it was in the past, who the hell are you to step in and dynamite the whole thing? Especially because you aren't acting in defense of the person who is behaving better, but on behalf of the person who is known to be behaving worse?
Yes...shut the fuck up and butt the fuck out.
That and go take a long look in the mirror and try to figure out what it is about yourself that ever made you think your manipulative little fingers ever belonged in this particular pie.
(Okay, so you already gave your real reasons for wanting them to break up: you think the husband is "average" while the new guy is "a catch." So the whole cheating thing is a red herring in your book anyway. You just want to play some sort of twisted matchmaker from hell. Makes you even more of a POS.)
If anything, friend/wife just lost any right to take offense at her husband cheating. She just tacitly stipulated that cheating is an acceptable activity in her book. (Let's not forget, there was never proof that the husband cheated, only suspicions, while the wife's cheating is basically confirmed.)
Most especially, now that husband has started behaving better towards his wife, and their relationship is to all outward appearance in better shape now than it was in the past, who the hell are you to step in and dynamite the whole thing? Especially because you aren't acting in defense of the person who is behaving better, but on behalf of the person who is known to be behaving worse?
Yes...shut the fuck up and butt the fuck out.
That and go take a long look in the mirror and try to figure out what it is about yourself that ever made you think your manipulative little fingers ever belonged in this particular pie.
18
I just don't know. If it were her best friend whose husband had cheated on her, I would advise her to tell. I'd expect my best friend to tell me about things like that, after all; what are best friends for? But because this is her friend doing the cheating, and she presumably doesn't know the husband as well... perhaps she shouldn't say anything.
Still, all of this "none of my business! none of your business! STFU BTFO!!!" stuff is very American and very cold and it's not quite the way I want my friends to treat me.
Still, all of this "none of my business! none of your business! STFU BTFO!!!" stuff is very American and very cold and it's not quite the way I want my friends to treat me.
19
Sloggers are harshing just a mite much on this LW. How is this "her problem:" her erstwhile friend is confiding too much in her and as she said, it's eating her up inside.
KTM, you should, indeed, butt out, but after first telling your friend, that you don't want to be dragged into the impending train wreck that is her life. You don't want to be a confidante, an alibi, or an assistant. Stay away from this woman, her husband, her old/new boyfriend, etc. But you may want to tell her why you're staying away, that you refuse to cover for her or confront her husband on her behalf, or explicitly or tacitly endorse her cheating. Tell her you refuse to speculate on whether her husband is cheating or was cheating and is now returning to her, or is trying to entrap her. This is her drama and don't let yourself get dragged into it. But as a parting gift, you may want to suggest that until all this is resolved, she may want to put the getting pregnant plans on ice.
Then focus on living your own life with integrity.
KTM, you should, indeed, butt out, but after first telling your friend, that you don't want to be dragged into the impending train wreck that is her life. You don't want to be a confidante, an alibi, or an assistant. Stay away from this woman, her husband, her old/new boyfriend, etc. But you may want to tell her why you're staying away, that you refuse to cover for her or confront her husband on her behalf, or explicitly or tacitly endorse her cheating. Tell her you refuse to speculate on whether her husband is cheating or was cheating and is now returning to her, or is trying to entrap her. This is her drama and don't let yourself get dragged into it. But as a parting gift, you may want to suggest that until all this is resolved, she may want to put the getting pregnant plans on ice.
Then focus on living your own life with integrity.
20
@16: Seriously. I used to have a social circle much like that. Every time someone broke up or had a fight or went on a date or got a new SO it was SIGNIFICANT NEWS that must be talked about at length, along with a healthy does of psychoanalyzing the people involved to figure out what personal deficiencies they were ameliorating. Being in that kind of group FEELS like being on reality TV, since it seems like everyone knows all the details of your personal life. I am *so* much happier having ditched those friends for much more laid-back people.
22
If you think I'm being too harsh:
I want to know how it works that the husband is merely "average" and a bastard for (maybe) cheating, while the returning ex-bf is a "catch" despite being a confirmed cheater. Likewise for the wife: another confirmed cheater, but where is the condemnation for her? Of the three people involved, only two of them are confirmed cheaters, and yet Letter Writer still wants to ID the third one, the Husband, as the villain.
Also that everything would be peachy if the two known cheaters would just dump the husband and get together. One almost wonders whether Letter Writer was the one cheating with Husband last year, and ruining his marriage and getting Wife and Ex back together would just conveniently make him available while tying up all the loose ends tighter than a 2011 Hollywood rom-com? (No, that would be just a little too trite, of course. But I still can't help wondering, whence cometh the continuing motivation to destroy the marriage when the prior Identified Problem may have never been cheating at all, and is now making visible efforts to be a better husband?)
I want to know how it works that the husband is merely "average" and a bastard for (maybe) cheating, while the returning ex-bf is a "catch" despite being a confirmed cheater. Likewise for the wife: another confirmed cheater, but where is the condemnation for her? Of the three people involved, only two of them are confirmed cheaters, and yet Letter Writer still wants to ID the third one, the Husband, as the villain.
Also that everything would be peachy if the two known cheaters would just dump the husband and get together. One almost wonders whether Letter Writer was the one cheating with Husband last year, and ruining his marriage and getting Wife and Ex back together would just conveniently make him available while tying up all the loose ends tighter than a 2011 Hollywood rom-com? (No, that would be just a little too trite, of course. But I still can't help wondering, whence cometh the continuing motivation to destroy the marriage when the prior Identified Problem may have never been cheating at all, and is now making visible efforts to be a better husband?)
23
@18: I agree with you that I would be unhappy with my friend knowing something that significant about my relationship and choosing to leave me in the dark.
Thing is, at the moment, if she should be telling anybody anything, she should be telling Husband what she knows about Wife. Also, I disagree with the idea that since she is not so much friends with Husband that she doesn't owe Husband the same courtesy that she owes Wife. That is fundamentally disrespectful of the marriage itself. Communities should set some stock in making stable relationships work. I would not be friends with someone who disliked my wife and didn't support my being married to her.
It was the fact that she was seriously contemplating enabling Wife's (confirmed) cheating, after hating on Husband for (suspected) cheating, that set me off. That, along with her stated opinion of the husband in general, made me think that she is not sufficiently a disinterested party, that what she would be doing would amount to malicious meddling.
Thing is, at the moment, if she should be telling anybody anything, she should be telling Husband what she knows about Wife. Also, I disagree with the idea that since she is not so much friends with Husband that she doesn't owe Husband the same courtesy that she owes Wife. That is fundamentally disrespectful of the marriage itself. Communities should set some stock in making stable relationships work. I would not be friends with someone who disliked my wife and didn't support my being married to her.
It was the fact that she was seriously contemplating enabling Wife's (confirmed) cheating, after hating on Husband for (suspected) cheating, that set me off. That, along with her stated opinion of the husband in general, made me think that she is not sufficiently a disinterested party, that what she would be doing would amount to malicious meddling.
24
Dan's wrong on the 1st and 4th count.
If the "best friend" truly thinks that the woman's husband is a piece of shit, then she should say exactly that. She has advised her friend to dump the husband in the past, and should continue to give the friend advice (if it is good advice). She should inform her friend that she knows about the cheating. Why not?
Likewise, she should advise her friend to avoid getting pregnant while in a shitty situation. Any good friend would do the same, and to suggest otherwise is irresponsible. Dan dropped the ball on this point.
If the "best friend" truly thinks that the woman's husband is a piece of shit, then she should say exactly that. She has advised her friend to dump the husband in the past, and should continue to give the friend advice (if it is good advice). She should inform her friend that she knows about the cheating. Why not?
Likewise, she should advise her friend to avoid getting pregnant while in a shitty situation. Any good friend would do the same, and to suggest otherwise is irresponsible. Dan dropped the ball on this point.
25
Couldn't care less about the obvious train wreck except for this: " ...before she actually gets pregnant like she's trying to."
Will she know which one is the father without DNA testing? Does she care that she's bringing a child into a family that's close to disintegrating? Do either of the guys know she's trying to get pregnant? She sounds like a very unpleasant person to me.
Will she know which one is the father without DNA testing? Does she care that she's bringing a child into a family that's close to disintegrating? Do either of the guys know she's trying to get pregnant? She sounds like a very unpleasant person to me.
26
Yeah, the letter writer is a busybody with more misplaced loyalty than good sense and her friend is a CPOS. Forget about their sick drama LW, and go get some counseling yourself.
28
OMG how women do LOVE their drama! Thus the cover of every magazine at the supermarket checkout...
29
You should emulate your friend until you're able to trick her husband into sleeping with you.
You might have to murder him, or her, or both after.
You might have to murder him, or her, or both after.
30
I'm pretty appalled that no one is seriously calling out the completely gratuitous fat hatred spewed out @13.
31
I would agree with Dan here except that the LW's friend is trying to get pregnant. She needs to tell her to knock it the fuck off, it is unfair to bring a child into that sort of situation. We get to pick our friends and lovers but kids don't get to choose their parents and when it all comes crashing down (which it will) a kid doesn't need to be in the middle of it. Get pregnant when things are working well, not when you're being a CPOS with a shaky marriage.
32
If the LW were really talented, she could have manufactured everything that happened in the course of the letter - the husband's suspicions and suspicious behaviour, leading to the wife's suspicions, and manipulation into saying she wouldn't dump him while she doubted what he'd done. Then nothing could be easier than to bring the ex back into the picture. I'm sure I don't have to Murdochsplain this.
33
The best part of Snowguy's Fat Single Friend Theory is that, cultural beauty standards being what they are, he can apply it to nearly any person he doesn't like who happens to be both in possession of a vagina and not, for whatever reason, hooked up with a charmer like him.
34
If the friend doesn't know that she knows, how does she know that the friend is trying to get pregnant? And by whom?
And why do I care?
If KTM is not sleeping with eiher
A. The friend/wife
B. The husband/dick scum
C. The former/current boyfriend (who it seems this person would fuck in a hearbeat)
then it's none of his/her fucking business, and he/she needs to STFU and BTFO
And why do I care?
If KTM is not sleeping with eiher
A. The friend/wife
B. The husband/dick scum
C. The former/current boyfriend (who it seems this person would fuck in a hearbeat)
then it's none of his/her fucking business, and he/she needs to STFU and BTFO
36
Re-reading, the LW doesn't demonstrate that she knows anything about who's sleeping with who. She "found out" about her friend and the ex, but later she says "since her husband cheated first" --which is pure speculation. That leads me to think the whole thing is speculation and inference. Unless she found out about the cheating from the ex, no one who's personally involved has said shit to her.
And that's the best reason why she should STFU: nobody who matters is telling her any factual details about any of this.
And that's the best reason why she should STFU: nobody who matters is telling her any factual details about any of this.
39
The best friend is a lying manipulative woman.
The old boyfriend is a lying manipulative idiot (not using condoms).
The husband probably has a clue that his wife is the above, but is in partial denial, PTSD or something, but is trying to make a decision to get out by hanging out with friends etc.
The letter writer needs new friends or self esteem to get a new best friend.
The old boyfriend is a lying manipulative idiot (not using condoms).
The husband probably has a clue that his wife is the above, but is in partial denial, PTSD or something, but is trying to make a decision to get out by hanging out with friends etc.
The letter writer needs new friends or self esteem to get a new best friend.
40
People are reading way too much into this. Who says KTM has credible information? It's not her life. STFU and GTFO, unless you feel a moral obligation to tell the husband that his wife is a CPOS.
41
Hey, for all we know, the husband and wife are playing out his cuckold fantasy. (It would explain why he's suddenly nicer.)
And, the LW/F(rumpy)SF/Drama Addict should go read a book, watch some television or something and quit creeping/spying/living vicariously on her friends.
And, the LW/F(rumpy)SF/Drama Addict should go read a book, watch some television or something and quit creeping/spying/living vicariously on her friends.
45
lol @ 42.
If that is true, she should totally go for the ex-boyfriend because his pecs are so much better!.
If that is true, she should totally go for the ex-boyfriend because his pecs are so much better!.
46
I don't know - doesn't your answer seem overly dismissive? And what's entailed in BTFO? Does she walk away from the friendship, wait till they've resolved their issues, or simply be silently supportive to her friend while offering no advice and revealing no special knowledge? I think you could be a bit more specific - I mean, I don't know how I'd behave if that much dysfunction was constantly in my orbit, particularly from someone I consider my best friend, and your response doesn't shed any more light on that.
47
This was a fun letter, Dan. I could see your answer coming from about the third sentence of the letter. Not much suspense in the answer, but satisfying to read it just the same.
48
@10 actually we don't even know number 2. She clearly didn't hear from her friend about the sleeping with the ex. It could also just be rumour and bullshit.
49
@46: Letter Writer talks about wanting to "step in" in some fashion, which I interpret as taking direct intervention in the situation, perhaps by informing on someone. BTFO, particularly in the context of Answer #4, can simply mean don't do _that_. It doesn't mean she has to put duct tape over her mouth and refuse to say anything even when asked by Wife.
Who is she going to inform on, anyway? Certainly not Husband. Not only is everything she has against Husband circumstantial, but LW and Wife clearly have already discussed his behavior at some length, so there is nothing left to say there. And clearly not Wife, or Ex. Her comments have made it clear that she thinks Husband is inferior and she would like to see Wife and Ex together, even if it means helping Wife cheat.
I do think it would be reasonable for LW to tell Wife what she knows about Wife's dalliances, advise her that she has no business bringing a child into such a mess, and that she is uncomfortable with the whole thing. (This last one is stretching the truth, given what her comments have revealed about her.)
Who is she going to inform on, anyway? Certainly not Husband. Not only is everything she has against Husband circumstantial, but LW and Wife clearly have already discussed his behavior at some length, so there is nothing left to say there. And clearly not Wife, or Ex. Her comments have made it clear that she thinks Husband is inferior and she would like to see Wife and Ex together, even if it means helping Wife cheat.
I do think it would be reasonable for LW to tell Wife what she knows about Wife's dalliances, advise her that she has no business bringing a child into such a mess, and that she is uncomfortable with the whole thing. (This last one is stretching the truth, given what her comments have revealed about her.)
51
Actually, it seems to me that the parallel conviction (true or not) that the husband cheated on the wife and the wife cheated on the husband makes the LW position a hell of a lot easier.
Being stuck in the position of knowing, or even seriously suspecting that you know something is going on that would hurt a friend who doesn't know about it sucks. Being in the "if I'm his friend, I won't tell, but if I'm her friend, I have to" about anything sucks - one of the things friends do is let friends know when the train that's about to flatten them is heading toward them.
In this situation, though, it's easy. If either of them ever tries to throw it in her face, all she has to do is say, "Really? While you were doing the same thing?"
I'm not sure I'd say Shut the Fuck Up and Back the Fuck Out as much as Back the Fuck Out and Don't Be The One To Bring It Up. Because sure as hell, someone will. at that point Speak UP - and say "I don't want to be involved, and I refuse to talk to you about this subject." If they can't honor that, walk away.
I refuse to participate in other people's lies, but I will, at times, shut up about it - but only if I shut up about it with everyone involved.
Being stuck in the position of knowing, or even seriously suspecting that you know something is going on that would hurt a friend who doesn't know about it sucks. Being in the "if I'm his friend, I won't tell, but if I'm her friend, I have to" about anything sucks - one of the things friends do is let friends know when the train that's about to flatten them is heading toward them.
In this situation, though, it's easy. If either of them ever tries to throw it in her face, all she has to do is say, "Really? While you were doing the same thing?"
I'm not sure I'd say Shut the Fuck Up and Back the Fuck Out as much as Back the Fuck Out and Don't Be The One To Bring It Up. Because sure as hell, someone will. at that point Speak UP - and say "I don't want to be involved, and I refuse to talk to you about this subject." If they can't honor that, walk away.
I refuse to participate in other people's lies, but I will, at times, shut up about it - but only if I shut up about it with everyone involved.
52
KTM tell your friend NOT to get pregnant while her partner status is in doubt, without mentioning where the sperm may come from. Who she is with is her choice, but dragging her family-to-be into it is a completely overwhelming circumstance.
OTOH revenge won't resolve years of problems to come, ending things will.
Peace
OTOH revenge won't resolve years of problems to come, ending things will.
Peace
53
KTW, I once had a friend who made terrible decisions for her own life. I remember feeling somehow that she needed my help to save her from herself, that it was my responsibility to guide her. What can I say? I was young and dumb. I realized that my friend had to make her own mistakes and learn her own lessons. It was, and it remains, ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE for you to make another person wiser than they are. If your friend is encouraging this dependancy - if she kind of encourages you to feel responsible for her - she's probably has some fear of making decisions herself. She's afraid of taking the full responsibility for something because then it is her fault when it goes wrong. But she NEEDS to take full responsibility for herself. That is the only way she can grow and learn.
If you have an opinion, and she asks you for it, you can state it just ONCE. That's all. After that point, butt out. Let her figure out her own life. That is what she absolutely needs, more than anything.
If you have an opinion, and she asks you for it, you can state it just ONCE. That's all. After that point, butt out. Let her figure out her own life. That is what she absolutely needs, more than anything.
54
@43: "She should tell the husband so he can dump his cheating whore wife."
Oh look! One of the "Dan is a bully" Christians from a few days ago has stuck around to become a regular reader.
Oh look! One of the "Dan is a bully" Christians from a few days ago has stuck around to become a regular reader.
55
@19: " her erstwhile friend is confiding too much in her"
Or she's probing too goddamned much and getting "proactively involved".
Or she's probing too goddamned much and getting "proactively involved".
56
Add me to the list of people who think STFU and BTFO might not be the best answer to question 4. Letting a friend make her own stupid mistakes is one thing, but standing mute while a friend inflicts her stupid mistakes on an innocent child is quite another.
57
@13 Thanks for articulating something I've noticed subconsciously but never fully grasped. Fnarf expanded on your comment nicely, and also was politically correct to back off from the 'fat' aspect--but in my experience, Snowguy's characterization nailed the typical person who lives vicariously through her friends and who over-analyzes others' relationships in a constant Quest for Drama.
58
@56 and others, re: Dan's Answer #4 to Question #4 -- Bear in mind that the wording of Question #4 included: "Because I feel like I should really step in somehow"
That wording brings to mind intervening directly in the situation, not in speaking privately to her friend. In that case I think STFU means don't _say_ anything public (i.e. don't take it on yourself to do any bean-spilling), and BTFO means don't _do_ anything similarly public. Let these people work out their own relationship. Do not attempt to fix it -- or run it, or ruin it -- for them.
I don't imagine it is ever required for a best friend to stand by completely mute while the other person fucks up their life. True, you don't badger them, and true, you don't intervene on their behalf, but you always do get to at least privately express your concerns to them. (But nobody else.) Under that rule, sure, it is entirely appropriate for LW to tell her friend that her life is a mess and she should really refrain from bringing an innocent baby into the equation until the pair of them get things sorted out.
Just don't "step in somehow." Or else in short order it will become dismayingly obvious exactly what you are "stepping in."
That wording brings to mind intervening directly in the situation, not in speaking privately to her friend. In that case I think STFU means don't _say_ anything public (i.e. don't take it on yourself to do any bean-spilling), and BTFO means don't _do_ anything similarly public. Let these people work out their own relationship. Do not attempt to fix it -- or run it, or ruin it -- for them.
I don't imagine it is ever required for a best friend to stand by completely mute while the other person fucks up their life. True, you don't badger them, and true, you don't intervene on their behalf, but you always do get to at least privately express your concerns to them. (But nobody else.) Under that rule, sure, it is entirely appropriate for LW to tell her friend that her life is a mess and she should really refrain from bringing an innocent baby into the equation until the pair of them get things sorted out.
Just don't "step in somehow." Or else in short order it will become dismayingly obvious exactly what you are "stepping in."
59
I have to agree nocutename. The LW should put her cards on the table and then back off. She could be actively hunting for drama or the friend could be trying to drag her into her mess. I've seen both happen and neither is pretty.
60
If anything, LW might want to tell her friend that someone is gossipping about her cheating with the old boyfriend. LW "found out" about it somehow, and obviously it didn't come from the source. That's the kind of information friends owe each other.
61
The only obligation here that the LW has is, oddly enough, to the husband if her friend the wife gets pregnant. Most jurisdictions have laws mandating an assumption of paternity within a marriage, i.e. if the wife gets pregnant the law says that the husband is the daddy, no matter who is the actual impregnator. The only chance the husband has to avoid two decades of child support for a kid that isn't his is to demand a paternity test right away. If, for example, he doesn't and spends two years raising the kid as his own and then finds out about the bf being (or maybe being) the real dad then he's probably SOL and the ex-bf gets to laugh off his obligations to a child that is his, whereas the deceived husband has to fulfil obligations to a child that isn't his. Both the child and the husband have a right to know who's really the father, and the real father (not the "legal default setting father") should step up and be dad and pay the child support.
62
@13 FTW! Harsh but true.
@14, I know it's harsh, but I've seen this over and over too - there was a whole posse of them in my last LTR and I was outnumbered, and got dumped.
Its' not just Fat (TM) per-se; any conventionally unattractive attribute (leading to poor self-image) may result in this. What I personally suspect it amounts to is, "I'm an unhappy to be single person, and I want to make sure you are too, so it's not just about me". Subconsciously even. I remember watching one of these friends parading and flirting for my benefit during one visit - the competition among women seemingly having no bounds.
There was one friend who was also not conventionally beautiful, but was sane and nice and normal; she was in my corner, but was also outnumbered.
So nice to be in a relationship where the friends are supportive and the GF is not overly-enmeshed in friends. Dude will be better off after he gets dumped, particularly if there are no kids yet.
Advice for LW: Get Your Own Life and Get Your Own Relationship Drama.
@14, I know it's harsh, but I've seen this over and over too - there was a whole posse of them in my last LTR and I was outnumbered, and got dumped.
Its' not just Fat (TM) per-se; any conventionally unattractive attribute (leading to poor self-image) may result in this. What I personally suspect it amounts to is, "I'm an unhappy to be single person, and I want to make sure you are too, so it's not just about me". Subconsciously even. I remember watching one of these friends parading and flirting for my benefit during one visit - the competition among women seemingly having no bounds.
There was one friend who was also not conventionally beautiful, but was sane and nice and normal; she was in my corner, but was also outnumbered.
So nice to be in a relationship where the friends are supportive and the GF is not overly-enmeshed in friends. Dude will be better off after he gets dumped, particularly if there are no kids yet.
Advice for LW: Get Your Own Life and Get Your Own Relationship Drama.
63
I'm with 57. Poster 13 captured a archetype nicely and, yeah, of course not all such people are fat. They could have any number of self-disqualifying conditions (shyness around potential partners, lack of a "game", excessive self-deprecation, etc) because of which they stay out of the dating pool themselves and particpate vicariously as described.
So rather than FSF, how about "Relationship Lamprey, (TM)" for that third wheel in a relationship? The RL only gets in the way and sucks the life and joy out of a relationship but maximizing anything with drama potential because they don't have enough in their own life?
So rather than FSF, how about "Relationship Lamprey, (TM)" for that third wheel in a relationship? The RL only gets in the way and sucks the life and joy out of a relationship but maximizing anything with drama potential because they don't have enough in their own life?
64
@ 61. I love it when non-lawyers practice law on the internet. Nevermind that in most states, the marital presumption of paternity is rebuttable in a divorce proceeding. Carry on with your faulty advice.
65
If I found out some way that indicates she's doing a crappy job of covering her tracks, I'd let her know what I observed. "Hey, did you mean to tweet that you were fucking your ex?"
67
@61 re @61.
The husband in question would have to know or at least suspect in order to challenge the paternity, no? Part of the problem with what has been called "paternity fraud" and "child identity fraud" is that the knowledge or suspicion arises long after the right (whether de jure and/or de facto) to challenge the paternity has passed, or long after the husband has developed a parental relationship with the child.
DMS
The husband in question would have to know or at least suspect in order to challenge the paternity, no? Part of the problem with what has been called "paternity fraud" and "child identity fraud" is that the knowledge or suspicion arises long after the right (whether de jure and/or de facto) to challenge the paternity has passed, or long after the husband has developed a parental relationship with the child.
DMS
68
Real friends don't drag their 'best friends' into their relationship drama, especially marriage. It's selfish and it also is cheating on the spouse emotionally when you air all your dirty laundry without any chance for he/she to defend themselves.
Therefore KTM doesn't have a best friend. Therefore she should walk away from this...except she won't because she loves it.
Therefore KTM doesn't have a best friend. Therefore she should walk away from this...except she won't because she loves it.
69
@67: I remember reading about a case several years ago of an acrimonious divorce in which the wife told the husband, in an moment of spite, that he did not father their child. This was corroborated by a subsequent paternity test, and in response the husband tried to disavow parenthood (a dick move, but not entirely unprovoked). However, the court ruled that he had developed a genuine working paternal relationship with the child, and that the child's interests would be harmed by allowing the disavowal. He was required by the court to continue with full paternal duties (albeit the divorced version thereof) even though the child was demonstrated to not be his.
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