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News & ArtsTuesday, June 26, 2012
Politics / Sex / The Ladies I Have Not Fallen Out of Love With Sandra Fluke
Posted by Jen Graves on Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 11:06 AM
Unlike Dan, I can't give a simple thumbs-up/thumbs-down opinion of porn, and I'm certainly not going to use sketchy science to further judge a woman who has been publicly insulted by a dude who is not entirely unlike the asshole Republicans who still run things in many parts of this nation (and who are lately trying to assault my reproductive rights like almost never before in my lifetime).
So yes, given the choice between Sandra Fluke and pornography, I'd choose Fluke.
But the fact is, I don't have to choose. I can like some, but not all, porn. I can be chilled by some of its scenes and its symbolism, and I am not going to ask science to answer the age-old, unanswerable question of how and when catharsis works, as opposed to when it fuels fucked-up fantasies. I'm just not sure that framing things in the starkest possible terms—-porn good! Anyone who says otherwise is an uptight sex-hater!—helps to fix this shame-based culture we're trying to fuck happily within.
All of which is just to say that if you're a lady or a man having a kind of complicated experience out there, you're not necessarily doing it wrong.
1
Often the discussion of porn is framed around moral arguments. Putting that aside, porn (particularly now that it's so widely available online and internet bandwidths have expanded) is TERRIBLE for your brain. No really. From a neurological perspective, it's doing some serious damage. FYI, I'm no puritan, I'm a pro-sex as they get.
Seriously, check out yourbrainonporn.com
Seriously, check out yourbrainonporn.com
2
"I am not going to ask science to answer the age-old, unanswerable question of how and when catharsis works, as opposed to when it fuels fucked-up fantasies."
Why is that "unanswerable", exactly? Well-executed science answers questions like that all the time.
Why is that "unanswerable", exactly? Well-executed science answers questions like that all the time.
3
I have not fallen out of love with Sandra Fluke yet, either. I'm not surprised, either. just a bit disappointed.
Jen, you're post is unfinished. You can't blithely call an article in Scientific American "sketchy." No, it doesn't carry the same weight as The New England Journal of Medicine, but when you give no reason for dismissing it, it appears reactive - a rejection of something that contradicts a closely held belief.
So please - why did you say it's "sketchy"?
Jen, you're post is unfinished. You can't blithely call an article in Scientific American "sketchy." No, it doesn't carry the same weight as The New England Journal of Medicine, but when you give no reason for dismissing it, it appears reactive - a rejection of something that contradicts a closely held belief.
So please - why did you say it's "sketchy"?
4
I couldn't agree more. I think it's definitely more complicated than love it or hate it. I wonder what the easy availability of it does to our sexualities. When you've jerked off to hardcore porn the majority of your life, does it impact how turned on you get from seeing and being with an ordinary person? I don't know the answer, and I'm not sure it does, but I'd like to see some answers. Is that even possible now?
The complete lack of reality also makes me wonder. Meet a woman at the front door, and within 2 minutes, you're pounding her ass, no foreplay, condom, or lube? Woman having orgasm after orgasm from that? Not that every porn needs to be sex ed, but I feel like it definitely distorts our ideas of actual sex. Women feel like they need to look and sound like porn stars, and feel deficient when orgasms don't happen to them in multiples, easily and often. Men don't get the greatest idea of actual female sexual response.
The same can be said of romantic comedies. But your mom can, and should tell you while watching those that these perfectly groomed Adonis men are one in a million, and are generally huge jerks. You don't watch porn with your folks. They can't correct the assumptions you make.
That said, I don't think it should be banned. I think having safe outlets like porn are important. I think some of it can be really hot. I'd love to see more of it with sexy, real couples and real orgasms.
The complete lack of reality also makes me wonder. Meet a woman at the front door, and within 2 minutes, you're pounding her ass, no foreplay, condom, or lube? Woman having orgasm after orgasm from that? Not that every porn needs to be sex ed, but I feel like it definitely distorts our ideas of actual sex. Women feel like they need to look and sound like porn stars, and feel deficient when orgasms don't happen to them in multiples, easily and often. Men don't get the greatest idea of actual female sexual response.
The same can be said of romantic comedies. But your mom can, and should tell you while watching those that these perfectly groomed Adonis men are one in a million, and are generally huge jerks. You don't watch porn with your folks. They can't correct the assumptions you make.
That said, I don't think it should be banned. I think having safe outlets like porn are important. I think some of it can be really hot. I'd love to see more of it with sexy, real couples and real orgasms.
6
When I lived in LA I worked second camera for some Gonzo shoots, and I just felt so bad for some of those young girls. Not all porn is made by strong women like Bella Donna. In fact the most violent is made with super young ( yes legal) girls. Some of the porn out there is ultra violent, racist and mysoginists. I agree you can like some, but at some point you have to at least feel bad for some of these very young girls who go into those shoots where they are punched, slapped, choked, degraded and sometimes even knocked out. There are fantasies, but some of those guys hurting those girls are sociopaths
7
Porn isn't harming anyone, and as the study that Dan linked shows, it's actually correlated with positive benefits to society. So yeah... You are needlessly uptight, Jen.
If you are sex-negative about sexuality you don't understand, you're still sex-negative. You don't get to police male sexuality, thankfully.
If you are sex-negative about sexuality you don't understand, you're still sex-negative. You don't get to police male sexuality, thankfully.
8
@3 because its hermaneutical science and not empirical quantitative (I hope thats the right word in English)? Basicly its the interpretation of data collected and not the an "easily" proven result.
Also the article does point out:
"It is important to note that these associations are just that—associations. They do not prove that pornography is the cause of the observed crime reductions."
Only that the current data seems (because "seems" is as good as he can get) to contradict with the idea that pornography = rape. But on the other hand very few people would try for such a grand connection. Many use pornography as an result of a patriarchy not the other way around. Other claim it strengthens the patriarchal system in society which in turn MAY cause more rapes (or atleast make rape something that is often the victims fault).
The words "suggests" and "seems" are a bit to common to use it a solid stand-point. But on the other hand considering the problems of the subject either group (or to be fair, all of the groups since its not black/white) don't have a very solid scientific footing here...
So it is kinda wishy washy concerning that specific subject.
Also the article does point out:
"It is important to note that these associations are just that—associations. They do not prove that pornography is the cause of the observed crime reductions."
Only that the current data seems (because "seems" is as good as he can get) to contradict with the idea that pornography = rape. But on the other hand very few people would try for such a grand connection. Many use pornography as an result of a patriarchy not the other way around. Other claim it strengthens the patriarchal system in society which in turn MAY cause more rapes (or atleast make rape something that is often the victims fault).
The words "suggests" and "seems" are a bit to common to use it a solid stand-point. But on the other hand considering the problems of the subject either group (or to be fair, all of the groups since its not black/white) don't have a very solid scientific footing here...
So it is kinda wishy washy concerning that specific subject.
9
@7: Oh but it is, especially if you suffer from depression. Google "pornography" and "dopamine receptors" sometime.
10
I never got around to falling in love with Sandra Fluke.
It may be my fault for not knowing why the Democrat's asked her to speak, but I basically know her only as someone who was viscously attacked by well-know assholes, and weathered it with grace and poise.
Sure, she is gorgeous, and I love me some Jesuit Education, but I'm a little harder to get than this.
It may be my fault for not knowing why the Democrat's asked her to speak, but I basically know her only as someone who was viscously attacked by well-know assholes, and weathered it with grace and poise.
Sure, she is gorgeous, and I love me some Jesuit Education, but I'm a little harder to get than this.
11
@9, Google "conflation" sometime. Depression exists with or without porn.
That said, I should probably back off my absolute statement. I'm sure someone will link to a story about a person tripping on a pile of porn and breaking a leg (or something) otherwise.
Mea culpa. In general, porn isn't harming anyone, and might actually be beneficial to society as a whole.
That said, I should probably back off my absolute statement. I'm sure someone will link to a story about a person tripping on a pile of porn and breaking a leg (or something) otherwise.
Mea culpa. In general, porn isn't harming anyone, and might actually be beneficial to society as a whole.
12
"Many use pornography as an result of a patriarchy"
Men watch porn because it gives them boners.
e_e
Men watch porn because it gives them boners.
e_e
13
"So yes, given the choice between Sandra Fluke and pornography, I'd choose Fluke."
So 'the Sisterhood über alles' is Jen's position then? I will say that Sandra Fluke having a fairly traditional feminist opinion about porn isn't that surprising.
On a broader topic, what is it about human nature that causes us to support *people* instead of their positions/opinions, by default? I understand feeling that way about family or friends or others that we have a face-to-face relationship with. In those cases we have a lot relevant data to form a judgement on a person's character. But with public figures like Sandra Fluke, most people (outside of her social & professional circles) have only heard a few minutes of her congressional testimony. That's enough to say "I agree with Sandra on this point" and not much more. Was it the attacks of Rush and the subsequent rallying-round that compelled some people to "fall in love with" a public figure they've never met?
So 'the Sisterhood über alles' is Jen's position then? I will say that Sandra Fluke having a fairly traditional feminist opinion about porn isn't that surprising.
On a broader topic, what is it about human nature that causes us to support *people* instead of their positions/opinions, by default? I understand feeling that way about family or friends or others that we have a face-to-face relationship with. In those cases we have a lot relevant data to form a judgement on a person's character. But with public figures like Sandra Fluke, most people (outside of her social & professional circles) have only heard a few minutes of her congressional testimony. That's enough to say "I agree with Sandra on this point" and not much more. Was it the attacks of Rush and the subsequent rallying-round that compelled some people to "fall in love with" a public figure they've never met?
14
Read #8. Going by the same logical fallacies in that study, I could claim that obesity is correlated with the same benefits to society. Porn availability and obesity have increased steadily over the past few decades.
Hell, according to the methodology of that study, I could claim that porn causes obesity. Prove I'm wrong.
as the study that Dan linked shows, it's actually correlated with positive benefits to society.
Read #8. Going by the same logical fallacies in that study, I could claim that obesity is correlated with the same benefits to society. Porn availability and obesity have increased steadily over the past few decades.
Hell, according to the methodology of that study, I could claim that porn causes obesity. Prove I'm wrong.
17
@ 8, that doesn't make it "sketchy." It makes it what I said it was on Dan's thread - not conclusive, but much, much more than what the "porn=rape" crowd have. And given that there's no evidence whatsoever linking porn consumption to rape, it makes that position a lot more tenuous.
18
@14 said: according to the methodology of that study, I could claim that porn causes obesity
I know you're being deliberately obtuse, but I'll go ahead and say it: Cause does not equal correlation. That's why I said it "might" be beneficial.
The study itself doesn't claim causation of reduced crime rates. From the article Dan linked:
It is important to note that these associations are just that—associations. They do not prove that pornography is the cause of the observed crime reductions. Nevertheless, the trends “just don’t fit with the theory that rape and sexual assault are in part influenced by pornography,” Ferguson explains. “At this point I think we can say the evidence just isn’t there, and it is time to retire this belief.”
I know you're being deliberately obtuse, but I'll go ahead and say it: Cause does not equal correlation. That's why I said it "might" be beneficial.
The study itself doesn't claim causation of reduced crime rates. From the article Dan linked:
It is important to note that these associations are just that—associations. They do not prove that pornography is the cause of the observed crime reductions. Nevertheless, the trends “just don’t fit with the theory that rape and sexual assault are in part influenced by pornography,” Ferguson explains. “At this point I think we can say the evidence just isn’t there, and it is time to retire this belief.”
19
If correlation is the same as causation, then what about a link between porn and human trafficking? Human trafficking has increased exponentially with the increase in access to porn. More likely it's help fund trafficking than promote it, but there's certainly a link.
20
Regardless of whether porn access decreases sexual assault rates, the study Dan cites does kill the claim that porn _increases_ sexual assault about as well as any social science result could. Any negative effects of porn are being nullified by other factors.
I know of no studies on it, but I'd suspect you'd find lower sexual assault rates in a region, and increased access to porn, are both correlated with better and more accessible sex education. And that could be a likely factor.
I know of no studies on it, but I'd suspect you'd find lower sexual assault rates in a region, and increased access to porn, are both correlated with better and more accessible sex education. And that could be a likely factor.
21
What Dan addressed here relates to Fluke saying she agrees with Santorum on this issue. To criticize the sentiment when it issues from a source you personally don't like praise it when it issues from a sympathetic source smacks of hypocrisy, and Dan has a special incentive to maintain a consistent stance on matters of acceptable sexual conduct.
22
Did dan say all porn was good? No. Did Fluke say all porn was bad? Pretty much. And that she can't find any good feminist porn (probably because she hasn't looked for it ...).
23
@11: That's not what I said. I said IF you HAVE depression, not that porn causes it. If you are already prone to depression, porn makes it worse.
I don't believe the porn=rape/human-trafficking/etc. logic, but from a strictly neurological standpoint, it does harm.
Trust me, I don't want that to be true. I LOVE porn and would rather keep watching it, but now that I know what it does to my brain I stay away.
I don't believe the porn=rape/human-trafficking/etc. logic, but from a strictly neurological standpoint, it does harm.
Trust me, I don't want that to be true. I LOVE porn and would rather keep watching it, but now that I know what it does to my brain I stay away.
24
@17 its claim is that the data collected seems to disprove their stand-point, sure. But the magical correlation between porn and rape was tentative at best with or without that research and those that make that very grandiouse claim tend to either, like here, simplify their stand point for the benefit of a debate or not give a shit about science anyway.
I think its safe to say that porn and the way porn is, just like art, books, movies and so on says something about the society in which we live and they where created. And that society is inspired by art (or by porn) to some extent. What that means exactly is another thing entirely. Also its a bit of a chicken/egg thing, isnt it? Do someone wank to, say pissporn, because he/she has always wanted to be pissed on or will he/she want to be pissed on because he/she started wanking to it? Its a relevant thought - if someone watch fake-rape themed porn, does he/she wants to truly rape someone or be raped by someone? Or is it a controlled fantasy? One where we logicly know that the feeling will differ from the fantasy.
Or do I just think too much about porn?
I think its safe to say that porn and the way porn is, just like art, books, movies and so on says something about the society in which we live and they where created. And that society is inspired by art (or by porn) to some extent. What that means exactly is another thing entirely. Also its a bit of a chicken/egg thing, isnt it? Do someone wank to, say pissporn, because he/she has always wanted to be pissed on or will he/she want to be pissed on because he/she started wanking to it? Its a relevant thought - if someone watch fake-rape themed porn, does he/she wants to truly rape someone or be raped by someone? Or is it a controlled fantasy? One where we logicly know that the feeling will differ from the fantasy.
Or do I just think too much about porn?
25
It's a rare person, a rare porn-lover even, who doesn't find SOME porn distasteful & even disgusting. It's just that we all find DIFFERENT porn exciting & different porn disgusting. That's why there's such a huge variety of it.
There's no accounting for taste.
Your mileage may vary.
I'd suggest that perhaps Sandra and/or Jen might want to take a look at this link:
"Porn That Women Like: Why Does It Make Men So Uncomfortable?"
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/201…
We already know that porn that *men* like often makes *women* uncomfortable ...
It's a rare person, a rare porn-lover even, who doesn't find SOME porn distasteful & even disgusting. It's just that we all find DIFFERENT porn exciting & different porn disgusting. That's why there's such a huge variety of it.
There's no accounting for taste.
Your mileage may vary.
I'd suggest that perhaps Sandra and/or Jen might want to take a look at this link:
"Porn That Women Like: Why Does It Make Men So Uncomfortable?"
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/201…
We already know that porn that *men* like often makes *women* uncomfortable ...
26
Oh sry - I would like to add "seems" because thats what this thing is about. Neither opinion has very much research to stand on. We can pretend "may", "seems" and "kinda" means "yes" or "no" if we want and then try to argue with pathos alone - or to prove that WE aren't rapists (if we chose to see this is a personal attack on us (as eventuall porn consumers)).
But what are we left with then? We could just flip a coin and pretend that would be truth or we could take a step back and see that either of the two extremes are not as safe and sure as we first thought and talk about what we can actually prove.
But what are we left with then? We could just flip a coin and pretend that would be truth or we could take a step back and see that either of the two extremes are not as safe and sure as we first thought and talk about what we can actually prove.
27
Dismissing Scientific American (as well as plenty of other studies) as "sketchy science" puts you in the category of idiot. If you don't like porn, fine. Say it loudly, say it proud. But don't pretend that there is any rational thought behind it, you just don't like it.
Oh, and the article I read from Dan didn't seem to set up this dichotomy of porn vs. Fluke. So, nice straw man argument ya got going there. It just adds more evidence that your reasoning powers are not that strong today.
Oh, and the article I read from Dan didn't seem to set up this dichotomy of porn vs. Fluke. So, nice straw man argument ya got going there. It just adds more evidence that your reasoning powers are not that strong today.
28
All I can add to this discussion are the comments I've heard from my teenage daughters. They both have told me that some boys their age have many expectations in sexual relationships that apparently stem from their early exposure to Internet porn. This seems to put a lot of pressure on the girls (and possibly on the boys as well) to conform to sexual behavior that may not be comfortable to them, especially in the early stages of exploration, but appear to be "what everybody is doing" because it's so ubiquitous in the virtual world. Porn has always been with us, and I'm sure always will be, but as a parent I do worry that Internet porn may have a detrimental effect on teens of both genders and of whatever sexual orientation.
29
I agree, Jen. Dan's position that if you find porn problematic, it is because you are an "anti-sex prude" just comes off as a lazy attempt to quiet or shame those who disagree with him. It's no different than Rush Limbaugh calling feminists "femi-nazi's."
I've always been a highly sexual woman who has had more partners than most women I know, but I find porn problematic. To me, a woman pretending to be turned on for a man's pleasure is the opposite of sex positivism. Not all porn is like that, but most of the mainstream shit I've seen is.
I've always been a highly sexual woman who has had more partners than most women I know, but I find porn problematic. To me, a woman pretending to be turned on for a man's pleasure is the opposite of sex positivism. Not all porn is like that, but most of the mainstream shit I've seen is.
30
They both have told me that some boys their age have many expectations in sexual relationships that apparently stem from their early exposure to Internet porn.
This is blame shifting. These teens have had no sexual education. If it wasn't porn it would be something else. Teenagers didn't need porn or the Internet to be asshole rapist misogynists in the past.
31
I don't think it's blame shifting at all, #30.
Sex ed doesn't teach you *how* to have sex. It doesn't teach you about how to treat your sex partners. Demonstration through porn, which is all the actual sex most teenagers see, does give them an idea what acts & attitudes are to be expected.
I don't know what the solution is, but I don't think porn doesn't cause rape = porn causes absolutely no harm, ever.
Sex ed doesn't teach you *how* to have sex. It doesn't teach you about how to treat your sex partners. Demonstration through porn, which is all the actual sex most teenagers see, does give them an idea what acts & attitudes are to be expected.
I don't know what the solution is, but I don't think porn doesn't cause rape = porn causes absolutely no harm, ever.
32
@23 - How dare you have a nuanced opinion that is based on your own experience AND science!
Jen, I agree with you. Thanks for writing.
Jen, I agree with you. Thanks for writing.
34
Sex ed doesn't teach you *how* to have sex. It doesn't teach you about how to treat your sex partners.
That's just silly.
35
Jen, as a cultural critic, I'd think that alone would make you have a problem with the influence of mainstream porn. Look what it's done to the goth scene. In the 80s and early 90s, it was bizarre and subversive. Girls dressed to shock and make people uncomfortable and question beauty standards. The make up was dark and creepy. The clothes were thrifted and resewn or made from scratch. There was nudity, but it wasn't meant to turn you on, it was meant to creep you out. Those were the Propaganda magazine days, and pretty was so not the point.
Now you go to any goth club and 95% of the girls have bought their clothes at the stripper stores, or at Metro, the goth stripper store, and they are dancing around in sexy panties or school girl skirts in their gym toned bodies with long shiny dark hair looking exactly like every dude in there wants them to look. There's nothing subversive about it.
Or look at Halloween! Porn culture has sucked the creativity out of everything. Now all anyone wants to do is look fuckable. It's boring.
Now you go to any goth club and 95% of the girls have bought their clothes at the stripper stores, or at Metro, the goth stripper store, and they are dancing around in sexy panties or school girl skirts in their gym toned bodies with long shiny dark hair looking exactly like every dude in there wants them to look. There's nothing subversive about it.
Or look at Halloween! Porn culture has sucked the creativity out of everything. Now all anyone wants to do is look fuckable. It's boring.
36
So this is the thread where all the shitty "porn causes divorce, etc" arguments went when they got trounced in Dan's thread.
No? But it seems your totally fine with:
"I'm just not sure that framing things in the starkest possible terms—-porn bad!Anyone who says otherwise is an woman-hater!—helps to fix this shame-based culture we're trying to fuck happily within."
Because that's basically what Fluke said aligning herself with Santorum's 100% anti-porn policies. She just say she didn't like porn. She didn't just say she thought misusing porn might be problematic.
She said it caused sexual violence and misogyny. So therefor she implies people who like porn promote sexual violence and misogyny.
#33 Yeah. Nuance. Porn causes misogyny is really "nuanced."
I'm just not sure that framing things in the starkest possible terms—-porn good! Anyone who says otherwise is an uptight sex-hater!—helps to fix this shame-based culture we're trying to fuck happily within.
No? But it seems your totally fine with:
"I'm just not sure that framing things in the starkest possible terms—-porn bad!Anyone who says otherwise is an woman-hater!—helps to fix this shame-based culture we're trying to fuck happily within."
Because that's basically what Fluke said aligning herself with Santorum's 100% anti-porn policies. She just say she didn't like porn. She didn't just say she thought misusing porn might be problematic.
She said it caused sexual violence and misogyny. So therefor she implies people who like porn promote sexual violence and misogyny.
#33 Yeah. Nuance. Porn causes misogyny is really "nuanced."
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