Slog
News & ArtsFriday, June 29, 2012
LGBTQITSLFA Really, HuffPo? I Don't Like Effeminate Gay Men?
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 11:56 AM
HuffPo posted a piece by "queer activist" Richard Lyon this morning. In it Lyon dismissed me as a "self-declared" gay pundit and then accused me of questioning "the desirability of a close alliance between" gay people and trans people on "repeated occasions." There was no link to anything I'd written questioning the alliance between gay and trans communities, no link to a YouTube clip where I said something like that, there was, you know, no proof that I had ever said something like that. Because it was a lie. Or, more charitably, it was a mistake. HuffPo has corrected Lyon's piece. (Although Lyon still accuses me of being "involved" in "continuing controversions and conflicts with the transgender community." My "conflict" isn't with the "transgender community," it's with a small number of self-described trans activists—most of whom are not trans, all of whom are full of shit.)
While I've had dustups with these "self-declared" trans activists—about word choice, about advice I'd given—I wholeheartedly support the political alliance between gay and trans people. I support trans people. Because we're all gender non-conforming sexual minorities, right? I also happen to agree with my fellow gay, white, cis-gendered pal Gabriel Rotello: a growing body of evidence points to gay being a a point on the trans spectrum. Science!
But here's what was most maddening about self-described "queer activist" Richard Lyon's piece:
From an effort to counter the notion that all gay men are effeminate, they have moved toward the position that all gay men should present an image of red-blooded American masculinity. The drive toward becoming respectable leaves no room for the presence of gay men who are less than fully and thoroughly butch.... The point of this is that not all boys are cut out to be the personification of masculinity. I was a kid who started life as an identified sissy and grew up to be a gay man who still hates sports and likes to cook. By and large, it is the kids who look and/or act different who are most likely to be targets of bullying.
Lyon, who writes that he was "a kid who started life as an identified sissy and grew up to be a gay man who still hates sports and likes to cook," is decrying the marginalization of effeminate gay men by more masculine, gender-conforming gay men. And Lyon accuses me of being one of the gay voices out there condemning gay men who don't "conform to the masculinity specification" and "fail to measure up on the butch index."
Bullshit.
Here I am coming to the defense of sissies in a piece I did for "This American Life" way back in 1996. I happen like effeminate men and I've always defended effeminate men in my column and on my podcast. And not just their humanity and right to exist, Richard, but their sexual agency and sexual desirability. There aren't a lot of high-profile gay writers out there—excuse me, "self-described gay pundits" (not that I've ever described myself that way)—who've defended sissies as sex objects. Except me: I happen think swishy gay men are hot and I've never been shy about saying so. (My husband hates team sports and likes to cook and wears flashy clothes and dyes his hair.) And I've gotten tons of grief over the years from insecure gay men—some a whole lot less butch than they imagined themselves to be—who are openly hostile to effeminate gay men. I've always slapped those guys down. (Most seemed to think that if we all acted a little straighter the haters would hate us less. Not true.) So to be cited as part of the problem in a piece about gender non-conformity among gay men and the oppression of sissies just added insult to injury.
1
We got your back, Dan. This douchebag is full of shit and obviously has no familiarity with your writing or podcast.
2
Yup, we know the truth. And one can never say this enough "Thanks for all that you do!"
Dan Savage is my favourite gay hero...sorry Green Lantern.
Dan Savage is my favourite gay hero...sorry Green Lantern.
3
Your problem is caring about shit that is published on the Huffington Post. The entire site is a cesspool of ridiculousness with no quality control.
5
As an effeminate gay man, I say he's a liar. I've been a fan of yours for an ungodly number of years and I have never once, not once, ever felt anything but your acceptance and understanding. This guy has his own agenda.
7
Seems like your lot in life, Dan, is to be just outspoken enough to become a lightning rod for whatever pissed off bullshit people have, regardless of if it's actually got anything to do with you or not. This guy just needed a big name to write a headline about. Thanks for calling him on it.
8
i remember dan's defense of sissies in very recent columns, as per usual, huffington post is wrong.
9
It's kind of fun that his critics these days are mostly of the easily-fended-off variety. Used to be those assholes tried really hard, but nowadays it's usually just lightweights trying to gain a bit of fame by playing off his somehow. Silly.
10
I've heard you praise effeminate gay men all the time and say how hot they are.
Unfortunately, anyone who is as much in the public eye as you will get people writing lies about them. We've got your back Dan. Your flying monkeys can smell someone who is as full of shit as this guy.
Unfortunately, anyone who is as much in the public eye as you will get people writing lies about them. We've got your back Dan. Your flying monkeys can smell someone who is as full of shit as this guy.
11
I remember on your radio show AT LEAST 15 years ago, you said you only like guys who swish when they walk. Are those all archived somewhere?
12
I'm not effeminate (that much...) but definitely not butch. Team sports are a yawn on the daily spectrum of life. But I have great friends who love that and get a lot of enjoyment from them. Good for them. Like your sweet hubby, I also like to cook, have dyed my hair (from highlights to full platinum), and love comedy, old movies, and TV. Dan, you've worked, written, spoken tirelessly on behalf of all LGBT people - even so-called 'Gay Repugnicants'; Thank you! So roll that tired old whatever Richard up in a rug and call the movers.
13
I still don't understand why a fragment of the queer community has all this anger towards Dan. I feel like this has been going on forever
14
Very interesting trans link, thank you! At least anecdotally I've noticed that a majority of crossdressers, while generally on the straighter end of the Kinsey scale, generally are a lot more bisexual than regular straight guys.
15
Everyone needs a job, and I appreciate that Huffpo supports the Basement Economy and chooses to pay for troll. In a truly first rate publication, troll is provided for free in the comments.
16
So is there some school or certification organization to become an official "gay pundit" that Lyon wants you to attend?
18
It's off-topic, I know, but Dan: how come when you refer to him as your "boyfriend" you can say the word normally, but when you refer to him as your "husband" you always turn it into "huuuuuuuuuusbun"?
19
The ONLY way these self-haters can get anyone to read their stuff is if they use the name "Dan Savage" in their articles and on their blogs. The cha-ching factor is too tempting for them, look how many you've helped just this week!
20
I wish that link about gay being a point on the trans spectrum had any references at all. It's hard to judge the validity of a claim without references, and when someone talks about a "growing body of evidence" I start to think "habeas corpus, por favor." Without even digging, though, I wonder where formerly-straight trans people fit on this spectrum. Transwomen who are attracted to women seem like they don't jibe with the idea that you can neatly stick queer people on different points of the same line. Of course, any time something in the natural world is shoehorned into a two-dimensional structure, be that tree or linear spectrum, I immediately question the logic being used.
21
The real problem here is that Dan is anti-paranoid-loony.
At least that's the conclusion we've come to.
At least that's the conclusion we've come to.
22
I thought you are an effeminate gay man. Not having met you in person, I suppose I can’t really say, but my impression was that you aren’t exactly butch.
You’ve mentioned the baking, the broadway musicals… are you not an effeminate gay man yourself?
You’ve mentioned the baking, the broadway musicals… are you not an effeminate gay man yourself?
23
Just so you know: I'm on your side, Dan. But when trans activists talk about you being a transphobe, they're talking about this shit: http://amajor7.tumblr.com/post/259580882…
24
22: Some people think I am. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about whether I'm masculine or feminine, honestly. I get emails from people yelling at me for "acting straight" and emails from people calling me an appalling, swishy, sissified faggy fag fag. Maybe we should do a Slog poll?
25
WOW the need to have "acceptance" is really causing people a lot of self imposed grief. Stop burdening yourself with grief because someone or some group does not like you. Grow up. Mr Savage has always appeared to be inclusive of those in the gender non conforming queer identified Homo leaning community.
27
@24 hahaha. Sure, but block comments.
Hard to tell from here if it's a good or bad thing to be in the public spotlight so much.
Hard to tell from here if it's a good or bad thing to be in the public spotlight so much.
28
Anyone who listens to or reads Dan's work and comments would know that Dan likes boys that have some sugar in the tank. And why not? They're freaking hot.
In fact I remember one gay caller who was very anti-femme and Dan didn't give him a particularly hard time, but then admitted that it was because the guy had the femmest, gayest voice and he just found it so hot that he took it easy on the guy.
And he was right. The guy's voice was hot.
In fact I remember one gay caller who was very anti-femme and Dan didn't give him a particularly hard time, but then admitted that it was because the guy had the femmest, gayest voice and he just found it so hot that he took it easy on the guy.
And he was right. The guy's voice was hot.
30
Dan seems naturally butch enough, but then there are those defense mechanisms he must spend so much time working on... Oops, I meant biceps.
31
As a slightly effeminate straight man, should I get all huffy that I'm not included in this conversation?
Seriously, Dan and his work have done tons of good for my own self-acceptance and happiness. I'll bitchslap any troll who says otherwise in my presence.
Seriously, Dan and his work have done tons of good for my own self-acceptance and happiness. I'll bitchslap any troll who says otherwise in my presence.
33
I think you're a masculine fag that likes twinks and used-to-be-twinks. When you try the limp wrist to show you're gay it seems forced, even with all your showtunes. I think it's the biceps and tshirts.
34
@31 "As a slightly effeminate straight man, should I get all huffy that I'm not included in this conversation?"
As a slightly masculine straight woman, I feel the same way. I think straight people who are "non-conforming," for lack of a better term, also benefit from Dan's advocacy of the rights of Gay and Trans people.
As a slightly masculine straight woman, I feel the same way. I think straight people who are "non-conforming," for lack of a better term, also benefit from Dan's advocacy of the rights of Gay and Trans people.
35
I'm a straight dude, and I have no problem with guys acting effeminate or girls acting masculine. Swishy people of either gender and any orientation just set my teeth on edge, though.
36
On a personal level, it was you that made me pay more attention to and subsequently understand the charms of gents on the swishier end of the spectrum. Faggy guys are hot, and beyond that, they're the ones that get all the shit and ultimately have to be a lot stronger and a lot fucking "manlier" than all of these stupid "st8 acting" faggots.
37
@33 Winner
Dan's getting the public hating because he's a 'made man', and has become America's Top Fag. I don't think he appointed himself to that position, nor as Stephen Colbert's Official Spokesgay. There's some hard work, caring about people, and a shitload of travel involved.
Dan's getting the public hating because he's a 'made man', and has become America's Top Fag. I don't think he appointed himself to that position, nor as Stephen Colbert's Official Spokesgay. There's some hard work, caring about people, and a shitload of travel involved.
38
I'm with 34. I'm a straight female, but I'm not at all feminine. For a long time I thought I just wasn't very good at being female. After I started following Dan's podcasts and columns I finally got that none of us match the "ideal" that the advertisers and marketers want us to buy into. "This is what a man or woman is supposed to be". Buy this product, and it will get you closer to "perfect". They want us insecure, so we buy their shit.
Turns out, I may not be very feminine, but I absolutely rock at being me. And I tend to swim in the gender nonconforming end of the swimming pool. Thanks Dan.
Turns out, I may not be very feminine, but I absolutely rock at being me. And I tend to swim in the gender nonconforming end of the swimming pool. Thanks Dan.
40
All of us LGBTQIOMGBBQLOLXYZETC people get so many expectations heaped on us from all sides, both in the "community" and out. Everyone in general needs to settle, focus less on labels and letters, and encourage the simple act of people being who they are, and feeling free to do so.
41
I'm the sissy that Dan interviewed way back in 1996. I placed a personal ad in the stranger specifically mentioning that I was feminine. Only ONE person answered my ad - Dan Savage - and it was to interview me for the piece on This American Life. Love you Dan!...:)
42
I don't think Dan is effeminate at all, but he is obviously gay. Speech patterns mostly, I think. Not lispy, just... gay.
I'm really interested in this idea of there being a Transgender Spectrum, I'm envisioning it like a vertical line right down the middle of the Kinsey Scale. Where would I find research on this?
I'm really interested in this idea of there being a Transgender Spectrum, I'm envisioning it like a vertical line right down the middle of the Kinsey Scale. Where would I find research on this?
43
Hmm. There must be some Savage doppelgänger out there that Lyon is referring to because I've been listening to the podcast and reading the column for quite some time now and I've never put down the Stranger or finished a podcast and said to myself: "Man, Dan sure hates effeminate gay men! What's with that?"
46
I occasionally find myself bring Dan's name up in conversation, usually as a "As Dan Savage likes to say, blah blah". Almost invariably, the person I'm talking to will then say "I don't like Dan Savage because he says...." and the example will be something Dan seldom if ever says. Hates women, hates transfolk, denies the existence of bisexuality, doesn't believe in love....
It's a useful reminder that most people, most of the time, have no idea what they are talking about.
It's a useful reminder that most people, most of the time, have no idea what they are talking about.
48
Dan is pretty masculine.....
As long as he is holding onto the podium. The jazz hands are a dead giveaway.
Seriously, watch Savage U. You can't unsee it.
As long as he is holding onto the podium. The jazz hands are a dead giveaway.
Seriously, watch Savage U. You can't unsee it.
50
Don't sweat these "Gay Pundits / Queer Activists" that are trying to take you down Dan. Just queens playing game of thrones.
51
Beyond whatever he's saying about Dan, the article is just poorly written, doesn't state a clear argument. All I took away from it is that men who are non-gender-conforming have it rough, and .... this is somehow supposed to be other gay men's fault?
Doesn't seem different to me from the people who have said that Dan is misogynist, anti-fat, contributing to bi-invisibility, or whatever might be the flavor of the chip on the accuser's shoulder. People who are non-conforming (be it gender or body type or orientation or whatever) face problems. These problems are not Dan's fault, and it isn't fair to be mad at him because he hasn't fixed them all yet.
Dan, I love your work. Your compassion and level-headedness are inspirational. Thank you for everything, and don't let the haters get you down.
Doesn't seem different to me from the people who have said that Dan is misogynist, anti-fat, contributing to bi-invisibility, or whatever might be the flavor of the chip on the accuser's shoulder. People who are non-conforming (be it gender or body type or orientation or whatever) face problems. These problems are not Dan's fault, and it isn't fair to be mad at him because he hasn't fixed them all yet.
Dan, I love your work. Your compassion and level-headedness are inspirational. Thank you for everything, and don't let the haters get you down.
52
I can't help but think that Dan Savage's every contribution to the Slog anymore is just his excuse to defend his positions or promote himself. Dan, darling, start a personal blog. Please. Take your whinefests there.
53
@ 52 Speak for yourself. I like reading Dan's posts on slog and I'm not alone in this since Dan's posts tend to be the most widely read and commented on. Personally, I only read slog for Dan's articles. If you don't like reading these articles, then don't click on them.
As for Dan, I guess it is no longer enough for the haters to hate Dan for the things he has said. Now they're hating him for things he has never said.
As for Dan, I guess it is no longer enough for the haters to hate Dan for the things he has said. Now they're hating him for things he has never said.
54
I'm a gay-as-the-day-is-long gay man who loves to cook and decorate, has no interest in (as opposed to "hates") sports, but also could care less what clothes he has in his closet, and is still bemused when people are (apparently) surprised when I mention my boyfriend of ten plus years.
(But, come to think of it, maybe they are just surprised that anyone would put up with me for that long)
In any event, I don't know where I fit in the spectrum, and I really don't care.
(But, come to think of it, maybe they are just surprised that anyone would put up with me for that long)
In any event, I don't know where I fit in the spectrum, and I really don't care.
55
Ah, yes, the Rotello piece that has nothing but possibly absolute and absolutist truth in its corner. I file that away with Yes, That DOES Make You Look Fat along with other things that won't do anything good while contributing to wedges and erasure. But I do appreciate the earnest effort.
I wonder if the wild variation in people's opinions of Mr Savage's masculinity could have anything to do with the medium through which they form their opinions. Here Mr Savage reminds me quite a bit of Bill Mann, an old friend and quite a dear person. I wonder if the image of casting The Hours works here: looks like Walter Hardy, reads like Richard Worthington Brown, sounds like - Louis Waters? I could cast either Mr Savage or Mr Mann in any of the three roles with reasonable conviction.
As it's time for me to pay my Monthly Compliment, I shall conclude by lamenting that Mr Savage has been appropriated by Teh Straightz to a far greater proportion than would have been permitted in a just world. Can I blame capitalism?
I wonder if the wild variation in people's opinions of Mr Savage's masculinity could have anything to do with the medium through which they form their opinions. Here Mr Savage reminds me quite a bit of Bill Mann, an old friend and quite a dear person. I wonder if the image of casting The Hours works here: looks like Walter Hardy, reads like Richard Worthington Brown, sounds like - Louis Waters? I could cast either Mr Savage or Mr Mann in any of the three roles with reasonable conviction.
As it's time for me to pay my Monthly Compliment, I shall conclude by lamenting that Mr Savage has been appropriated by Teh Straightz to a far greater proportion than would have been permitted in a just world. Can I blame capitalism?
57
Back over a decade ago, I was a dumb gay teen (who was not terribly butch himself) who felt the need to say stupid things like, "I'm not into feminine guys...like, why wouldn't I just date a girl?" Dan's column was one of the first and only times I remember a prominent figure (of any gender or sexuality) defending effeminate gay guys not only as people, but as objects of desire. And I'm so glad I read it. Now the guys I'm attracted to tend to be all over the map in terms of their masculinity...as long as they're sexy, they're sexy.
So thank you, Dan, for liking effeminate gay men, and for opening a young, stupid fag's eyes to a whole range of guys he had previously written off. It truly did change my dating life for the better.
So thank you, Dan, for liking effeminate gay men, and for opening a young, stupid fag's eyes to a whole range of guys he had previously written off. It truly did change my dating life for the better.
58
Gender roles and sexuality are not black and white, and you have been very vocal about the need to accept that in ourselves and others for a long time. It's a stance that has helped both gay and straight people who fall outside of accepted norms.
I think a lot of the hate you get comes from your extension of these issues into the straight world. Both from gay people who feel proprietary about 'their' issues, and from straights who can't admit they have them.
As a woman who had previously dated a closeted gay man, I refused to consider dating my amazing husband for over a year because he is not the most masculine of men, and I was scared he was gay. I'm very happy a mutual friend convinced me otherwise.
I'm attracted to effeminate guys. They are very different from women, and it is insulting to write off a man as a man because he's thoughtful and gentle.
So, thank you Dan for sticking up for unconventional straights as well.
I think a lot of the hate you get comes from your extension of these issues into the straight world. Both from gay people who feel proprietary about 'their' issues, and from straights who can't admit they have them.
As a woman who had previously dated a closeted gay man, I refused to consider dating my amazing husband for over a year because he is not the most masculine of men, and I was scared he was gay. I'm very happy a mutual friend convinced me otherwise.
I'm attracted to effeminate guys. They are very different from women, and it is insulting to write off a man as a man because he's thoughtful and gentle.
So, thank you Dan for sticking up for unconventional straights as well.
60
@3: "Your problem is caring about shit that is published on the Huffington Post. The entire site is a cesspool of ridiculousness with no quality control."
The quality control of unpaid content farmers and aggregation pushes quality writing out.
The quality control of unpaid content farmers and aggregation pushes quality writing out.
61
Man, if only we could all just be ourselves, think for ourselves and speak for ourselves, and only encourage others to do the same. ha - oops, just contradicted myself - ok, *I'll* try harder to do those things, obviously a long way to go on that..
Neither here nor there, I always assumed Henry Rollins must be gay until he publicly came out as straight. I've never been a huge fan of straight people identifying as "queer", but come to think of it, I probably wouldn't mind if he did, so might have to rethink that..
Neither here nor there, I always assumed Henry Rollins must be gay until he publicly came out as straight. I've never been a huge fan of straight people identifying as "queer", but come to think of it, I probably wouldn't mind if he did, so might have to rethink that..
62
I think the guy is trying to cash on your name.
You, Dan and Terry are awesome - working for the benefit of the whole range of sexual interests, without limiting yourself to any sub-kind, in a truly open-mindedness that's a pleasure to witness.
@58 I totally agree with you. "Effeminate" gay men are nothing remotely close to being women - it's really by lack of imagination that they are still being compared to women. They are their own realm and men all right. And, being a straight woman, and them being men, I find them very hot too. Pleasure of the eyes, without the risks of actual involvement - a real treat.
I'm tired of always hearing gender stereotypes placated on us. I'm a woman ; if someone doesn't find me feminine, it's because that person has a too-narrow view of what women should look like or behave like. The narrow limits in other's brains are not going to rule my life.
You, Dan and Terry are awesome - working for the benefit of the whole range of sexual interests, without limiting yourself to any sub-kind, in a truly open-mindedness that's a pleasure to witness.
@58 I totally agree with you. "Effeminate" gay men are nothing remotely close to being women - it's really by lack of imagination that they are still being compared to women. They are their own realm and men all right. And, being a straight woman, and them being men, I find them very hot too. Pleasure of the eyes, without the risks of actual involvement - a real treat.
I'm tired of always hearing gender stereotypes placated on us. I'm a woman ; if someone doesn't find me feminine, it's because that person has a too-narrow view of what women should look like or behave like. The narrow limits in other's brains are not going to rule my life.
63
As a now out gay male who feels more masculine than feminine, I have evolved in my thinking and treatment of effeminate gay men. My issue isn't with the feminine dudes - it's with the masculine ones who refuse to be out and proud and show others that gay lives past the stereotype.
If you're being who you really in your heart feel who and what you are, rock on witcha bad self.
If you're being who you really in your heart feel who and what you are, rock on witcha bad self.
64
Well, here's the proof that Huffington Post is as bad as people say it is. Sexist ads and attacks on Dan? I'm finished clicking Huff Post links.
65
Dan Savage is self-declared? Well I suppose he is, but he's lots-of-other-people declared as well.
I hereby declare that Mr. Savage is a gay pundit, both in that he is a gay man who pundits and that his punditry often concerns issues of concern to the gay community!
There we go. Now he's just "declared."
I hereby declare that Mr. Savage is a gay pundit, both in that he is a gay man who pundits and that his punditry often concerns issues of concern to the gay community!
There we go. Now he's just "declared."
66
Maybe the way to wrap this up is with a tribute to John Inman's oft-maligned character Mr Humphries from Are You Being Served? I'm sure I saw in at least half a dozen British coming-out novels from the 70's and 80's that a character's internal conflict had something to do with using poor Mr Humphries as a negative example. So I'll conclude with one of Mr H's best-known lines:
"I'm free!"
"I'm free!"
68
Unimportant nitpick:
You say, "I happen like effeminate men and I've always defended . . . "
but it should be
"I happen TO like effeminate men and I've always defended . . . "
But seriously, where the hell are these guys getting the idea that you don't like effeminate gay men? Their asses?
You say, "I happen like effeminate men and I've always defended . . . "
but it should be
"I happen TO like effeminate men and I've always defended . . . "
But seriously, where the hell are these guys getting the idea that you don't like effeminate gay men? Their asses?
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