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News & ArtsTuesday, July 3, 2012
Sex / Conflict of Interest / Savage Love Other Advice Columnists Wonder Why They Get So Few Questions From Men
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 9:29 AM
Gee, maybe it has something to do with crap like this. (We need a term like "slut shaming" that applies in cases like this—e.g., when it's normal and healthy male sexuality and sexual expression that is being stigmatized and pathologized.)
UPDATE: And we may already have a winner:
Also Dan, it's easy: "Smut shaming"
Thanks, Ryanayr!
6
Smut Shaming is perfect!
But holy crap does this Dear Amy person have her head firmly lodged up her retentive ass. What's a child to do when they find their parent's porn stash, or hear their parent having sex, or find sex toys in their parent's room? They should do what they've always done: ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist (and check out the porn to see if it's any good).
This stupid girl just found her father's porn site history on the computer; it's not like she's complaining that she's tired of having to wash her Dad's masturbatory spunk off the keyboard every time she wants to go online. What should she do? Set the damn computer to clear the history automatically and not visit those sites if she doesn't want to know what her Dad is into.
But holy crap does this Dear Amy person have her head firmly lodged up her retentive ass. What's a child to do when they find their parent's porn stash, or hear their parent having sex, or find sex toys in their parent's room? They should do what they've always done: ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist (and check out the porn to see if it's any good).
This stupid girl just found her father's porn site history on the computer; it's not like she's complaining that she's tired of having to wash her Dad's masturbatory spunk off the keyboard every time she wants to go online. What should she do? Set the damn computer to clear the history automatically and not visit those sites if she doesn't want to know what her Dad is into.
7
The browser history doesn't show unless you go looking for it, which darling daughter clearly has been doing. Dear Amy sounds like a bit of a butthole, judging from these two letters -- what the hell is up with "Marriage might clarify matters for everyone....This is relevant because if they had taken more time, everyone would have had plenty of time to figure out how to be addressed."
Classic American, her only point of view is figuring out who to blame.
Classic American, her only point of view is figuring out who to blame.
8
Fuck...set up Dad with his own profile. (and those complaining of a paywall...just go for the free option and use a fake email address)
9
I love when a person says that "porn harms all parties."
Because they are actually saying "Due to my immaturity and lack of self estem, porn harms me because I feel I can not compete with it."
Because they are actually saying "Due to my immaturity and lack of self estem, porn harms me because I feel I can not compete with it."
10
I think you can make a sound argument that porn can have a negative impact of a person's sexuality, but 95% percent of the people trying to make that argument have an equally yet differently warped view of human sexuality.
13
Fnarf@7: actually current versions of firefox and chrome will "helpfully" start pulling url completion suggestions (complete with thumbnail images!) out of your history index from the moment you type one character in, so it's actually all too possible that the letter-writer was confronted with a suggestion of hotsluts.com when she was trying to check her hotmail account, etc.
The solution, of course, is to for fuck's sake not share a computer or a login profile with your kids.
The solution, of course, is to for fuck's sake not share a computer or a login profile with your kids.
14
You know, most modern browsers have a "Private Browsing" feature.
Perhaps one should discretely comment on it. "Oh cool, check this out-- it's, like, an anonymous browsing thing! That's pretty neat. Whatever will those techies think of next?"
Then Dad can get one with his private fapping and the daughter won't have to think about her father checkin' out internet ladies (or guys or whatever) while planting his bare buttocks in the very chair in which she sits to look at Pinterest.
Perhaps one should discretely comment on it. "Oh cool, check this out-- it's, like, an anonymous browsing thing! That's pretty neat. Whatever will those techies think of next?"
Then Dad can get one with his private fapping and the daughter won't have to think about her father checkin' out internet ladies (or guys or whatever) while planting his bare buttocks in the very chair in which she sits to look at Pinterest.
15
Who goes looking through their web history on a regular basis? I think I've opened my history maybe twice in the last 3 months, to find a specific page I had visited and couldn't remember what site it was on. If you open the history on a shared computer, expect to find stuff you didn't want to know about.
16
Amy is famous for bad advice, and for a very anti-male bias, especially on matters of sexuality. Easily the worst advice columnist working for a major publication.
Oh, and she's getting her ass handed to her in comments sections all over the country - check out the WaPo http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/… Even the porn haters think her advice sucked.
Oh, and she's getting her ass handed to her in comments sections all over the country - check out the WaPo http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/… Even the porn haters think her advice sucked.
17
What @ 13 said. Some browsers have been doing this for years. I found out what my dad likes just turning on his computer once. (Which I had legitimate reason to do - we needed to look up an online menu for takeout and it was before I had a smartphone. Never again will that happen.)
18
I have always thought that men are harmed by porn and prostitution more than anyone and are the real victims...being conditioned to pay for and accept virtual substitutes for a need that is as common as going to the bath room.
I mean imagine if you had to take a really big crap and someone hands you a picture of a bathroom torn out of the IKEA catalog and a roll of tissue paper.
I believe that men should have a week where they refrain from:
All pornography
All prostitution
All payment related to human relations of any kind to females (gifts, dinners) except that required by law (child support, alimony, regular business)
At the same time we should protest the unrelenting barrage of criticism and mockery ("douche") that occurs when true male heterosexuality is expressed.
I mean imagine if you had to take a really big crap and someone hands you a picture of a bathroom torn out of the IKEA catalog and a roll of tissue paper.
I believe that men should have a week where they refrain from:
All pornography
All prostitution
All payment related to human relations of any kind to females (gifts, dinners) except that required by law (child support, alimony, regular business)
At the same time we should protest the unrelenting barrage of criticism and mockery ("douche") that occurs when true male heterosexuality is expressed.
19
@7 - Exactly. The solution to not liking what you see when you go snooping around is to not go snooping around. I want to send Amy this letter: "Umm.. I went through my Mom's dresser and found a vibrator - how do I shame her into not pleasing herself sexually?"
20
@18 - right, because there is no pleasure in giving someone a gift or paying for your girlfriend's movie ticket or dinner. I personally get satisfaction paying for a significant other's dinner when I take her out or give her a gift she appreciates. I don't do it for the sex; I do it for the look on her face and/or her appreciation. Douche is reserved for people who do things for wholly transparent reasons, or expect quid pro quo. That's not true heterosexuality expressed, because what is that? one can make an easy argument that wanting to have sex with someone shouldn't be considered a douchey thing, but certainly being offended that someone doesn't want to you have sex with you for some meaningless transparent act is douchey.
22
Shitty advice, and Amy doesn't bother to do any research. She could at least talk to a man and a technie. I think the question is really about discretion, but Amy stretched out to find a way to be a self-righteous know-it-all.
23
Use a different browser from dad = avoid the problem completely. And hey, you get your own bookmark stash!
24
It was so creepy to find my own dad's porn history full of college girls when I was in college. I wasn't snooping, either, it just popped up because my dad was really clueless about computer stuff. I think it's a bit fucked up for guys to be looking at sexual images of girls their own daughter's age, honestly. I'm in my late 30s and boys 20 years younger just look like babies to me now (as they should). I think this is how porn has screwed with people more than anything. How are men going to enjoy fucking their 50-year-old wives when all their fantasies revolve around 20-year-old co-eds? I know porn's not the only problem here, obviously, but it's a major contributor.
But yes, talking to him is a bad idea. I did, and it's permanently made us awkard around each other.
But yes, talking to him is a bad idea. I did, and it's permanently made us awkard around each other.
25
@18 if someone isn't maintaining a relationship via love & care, how are they supposed to get laid w/o money?
26
@20 says of herself,
Sooooooo...she also pays for your dinner right?
(Set the timer...wait for the inevitable answer: "but she's younger and doesn't have as much money as me.")
I personally get satisfaction paying for a significant other's dinner when I take her out or give her a gift she appreciates. I don't do it for the sex;"
Sooooooo...she also pays for your dinner right?
(Set the timer...wait for the inevitable answer: "but she's younger and doesn't have as much money as me.")
27
"I believe that porn is harmful to all parties, but consenting adults have the right to make depressing choices."
That will probably be the most sanctimonious, self-righteous, arrogant shit I'll read this month. "This is my opinion, but it's ok for people to do their own thing because it gives me the right to judge them." Fucking dumbass.
That will probably be the most sanctimonious, self-righteous, arrogant shit I'll read this month. "This is my opinion, but it's ok for people to do their own thing because it gives me the right to judge them." Fucking dumbass.
28
@24, there's a lot of warped shit in porn. The majority in here seem to think porn is healthy and normal, and that all women have to be comfortable with it and otherwise are shrill harpies. It's a fact of life and masturbation is normal, but I disagree that all women have to be loving and accepting of porn.
30
I'm totally going to start rooting against her on "Wait Wait... Don't Tell Me!" from now on. Paula Poundstone all the way! Or Mo Rocca if Paula's not there.
31
@28: There's a lot of warped shit in just about anything. You're a fool if you judge something by the worst thing in it.
32
@26 I'm younger and have less money than my boyfriend and *gasp* I bought dinner for him the last time we went out. Why? Because I felt like it and I suggested going out to a place that serves caramel milk shakes after a hot day. Neither of us buys each other anything to get sex, we have sex because we like each other which I understand might be a difficult concept for you but that's the way it works for most people. Now overall my boyfriend does pay for dinner more often, probably about 60/40 because he does make more money but if we made the same amount of money (or nearly so instead of him making more than twice what I do) then I would expect a 50/50 split because I'm all egalitarian like that.
33
@24 - " I think this is how porn has screwed with people more than anything. How are men going to enjoy fucking their 50-year-old wives when all their fantasies revolve around 20-year-old co-eds?"
Such a common sentiment, and yet it seems so misguided. You can find porn of 40+-year-old wives, too - in fact, a visit to tube sites suggests that it's pretty popular and actively sought out by a nontrivial segment of the porn-viewing population. Moreover, plenty of people have rich, diverse fantasies, which are not nearly so limited in scope as you suggest, and they're also capable of distinguishing them from reality.
Certainly some people can have serious problems with porn - often those who have general issues with compulsion. But I just don't think porn is generally consumed in the way you think it is.
Such a common sentiment, and yet it seems so misguided. You can find porn of 40+-year-old wives, too - in fact, a visit to tube sites suggests that it's pretty popular and actively sought out by a nontrivial segment of the porn-viewing population. Moreover, plenty of people have rich, diverse fantasies, which are not nearly so limited in scope as you suggest, and they're also capable of distinguishing them from reality.
Certainly some people can have serious problems with porn - often those who have general issues with compulsion. But I just don't think porn is generally consumed in the way you think it is.
34
@24 That depends on how you're defining "warped shit." If you're talking about how the "mechanics" don't really reflect reality (anal without visible rimming/fingers/lube/foreplay etc.) or how a lot of mainstream porn ignores or over-simplifies female pleasure, then the "problem" is easily remedied by the guy knowing that porn is largely to visual stimulate men and not serve as an example of proper technique.
If by "warped" you mean kinks, then I don't know if I can agree with you. People are into what they are into
If by "warped" you mean kinks, then I don't know if I can agree with you. People are into what they are into
36
Dan, I know Ms. Hax is your colleague, and you must show her some respect, but my word, does that woman have her head up her ass. I can get the same kind of crap from the Mormon Church.
"Smut shaming" is the far superior term, as it directly relates to pornography. Our dear friend BAILO is the perfect male role-model for the Smut Shamer: Oh, it's so, so, so VERY victimizing. Pity the poor porn star, but pity worse the poor schlub whacking off in front of the computer. Give me a break.
You're entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts. It's a complicated subject, and you can cherry-pick enough facts to make porn look like a second Shoah. But taken altogether, and especially when you compare it to how shame, especially sexual shame, wreaks emotional & psychological destruction upon humans; and how pretty much any form of human sexual expression is open to shaming from raging moral terrorists (including Ms. Hax), then porn starts lookin' pretty good in comparison.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a few porn sites I must visit...
"Smut shaming" is the far superior term, as it directly relates to pornography. Our dear friend BAILO is the perfect male role-model for the Smut Shamer: Oh, it's so, so, so VERY victimizing. Pity the poor porn star, but pity worse the poor schlub whacking off in front of the computer. Give me a break.
You're entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts. It's a complicated subject, and you can cherry-pick enough facts to make porn look like a second Shoah. But taken altogether, and especially when you compare it to how shame, especially sexual shame, wreaks emotional & psychological destruction upon humans; and how pretty much any form of human sexual expression is open to shaming from raging moral terrorists (including Ms. Hax), then porn starts lookin' pretty good in comparison.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a few porn sites I must visit...
37
I love how you bullshit artists pretend 99.9% of porn is a positive message of two adults getting it on. A good chunk of it is portrayals of underage and non-consensual sex and nasty views of women and race.
38
I remember having to read "Only Words" by Catherine MacKinnon as an undergraduate. 160 pages of (Pornography) "is intimidation, subordination, terrorism, and discrimination, and should be legally treated as such."
The men in the class could not stop laughing over her definition of pornography as (paraphrasing) any depiction of a woman sexually subservient to a man. Therefore, women on women, male on male, solo masturbation, etc. was in the clear.
And as has been pointed out on other websites, 50 Shades of Gray and Harlequin romance novels are hardly targeting a male audience.
The men in the class could not stop laughing over her definition of pornography as (paraphrasing) any depiction of a woman sexually subservient to a man. Therefore, women on women, male on male, solo masturbation, etc. was in the clear.
And as has been pointed out on other websites, 50 Shades of Gray and Harlequin romance novels are hardly targeting a male audience.
39
How are there ANY people in the Savage Love thread that have a problem with porn?! @24, if you think a man can't enjoy fucking his fifty year old wife after watching some college coeds, you are totally wrong and it sounds like YOU find fifty year old women disgusting..
40
When I have a question about computers, the first person I turn to is a 50-something relationship advice columnist.
The father should add a second user account to the computer and lock his down. Her browser history, which is stored in the user's own application data folder, will then be free of his.
Probably, she could do this herself since she's using his account.
But of course, her question was not "How can I respect my father's privacy", but "How can I impose my immature morality on my adult father?", and Amy was right up that alley.
The father should add a second user account to the computer and lock his down. Her browser history, which is stored in the user's own application data folder, will then be free of his.
Probably, she could do this herself since she's using his account.
But of course, her question was not "How can I respect my father's privacy", but "How can I impose my immature morality on my adult father?", and Amy was right up that alley.
41
@36 Respect is earned.
@37 Spent a lot of time watching underage sex and rape over the internet? I think you need to take a seat right over there.
@37 Spent a lot of time watching underage sex and rape over the internet? I think you need to take a seat right over there.
42
Yeah, but "smut shaming" really only applies in the case of guys looking at porno. There's plenty of other ways in which we pathologize normal, healthy male sexuality so I think we need a more all-inclusive term.
43
Children and parents just should not be sharing computers. Yech.
I have my issues with porn, but I'd be discussing those with lovers, not relatives :-P
I have my issues with porn, but I'd be discussing those with lovers, not relatives :-P
44
@41, at least you're admitting what it really is, maybe you can arrive at a sensible conclusion about it and the reasonableness of those opposed to it.
45
@37 Fuck off, I never pretended that.
I don't like rape porn. But if someone wants to jerk off while watching (fake) rape porn, good for him that he can do this. And let's not forget women with rape fantasies. I'm not gonna give moral lessons to what people can or should do with their penises and vaginas. As long as it's among adults and consensual, I don't give a shit. And I think that's good for society. Let people enjoy their fucked-up porn in peace and stop repressing things you can't even begin to understand.
And we know the repressed ones are the m…
I don't like rape porn. But if someone wants to jerk off while watching (fake) rape porn, good for him that he can do this. And let's not forget women with rape fantasies. I'm not gonna give moral lessons to what people can or should do with their penises and vaginas. As long as it's among adults and consensual, I don't give a shit. And I think that's good for society. Let people enjoy their fucked-up porn in peace and stop repressing things you can't even begin to understand.
And we know the repressed ones are the m…
46
@24 "How are men going to enjoy fucking their 50-year-old wives when all their fantasies revolve around 20-year-old co-eds?"
Clearly, you have an axe to grind, "Tired of this men's rights bullshit", but I think the saddest part of your argument is that these men do not have some sort of connection to their 50-year-old wives that might supersede the youthful hotness of these porn girls.
It may also be that your Dad is also enjoying the fantasy of being a younger man when he's repeatedly pleasuring himself to thoughts of women your age. Nothing in your note indicates the similarity in ages between his masturbatory fantasy girls and you is anything more than a coincidence, and he probably isn't giving you a second thought as he works his member to orgasm. In short, I don't think he's the wanker you painted him to be.
I also think your underage strawboy argument was inappropriate.
Clearly, you have an axe to grind, "Tired of this men's rights bullshit", but I think the saddest part of your argument is that these men do not have some sort of connection to their 50-year-old wives that might supersede the youthful hotness of these porn girls.
It may also be that your Dad is also enjoying the fantasy of being a younger man when he's repeatedly pleasuring himself to thoughts of women your age. Nothing in your note indicates the similarity in ages between his masturbatory fantasy girls and you is anything more than a coincidence, and he probably isn't giving you a second thought as he works his member to orgasm. In short, I don't think he's the wanker you painted him to be.
I also think your underage strawboy argument was inappropriate.
47
Hopefully the letter writer confronts her father so he can laugh in her face and tell her to move the fuck out.
49
#28, I'm not anti-porn. I watch it. The problem I have is when porn lovers are in complete denial about porn having any influence over a person's desires or sexual fantasies, some of which may be harmful.
I know it's definitely impacted my sexuality. I look at porn and get off on the women. Yet I'm not attracted to real life women. I go to nude spas and see naked women and none of them do a thing for me. I see women on the beach and feel nothing. If I did, I'd happily call myself bi or a lesbian. But because I grew up with these images that "this is what's sexy" via porn, I'm totally turned on by that one type of woman. I consider that a harmless effect of porn.
However, it used to also be enough for me to look at a Playboy magazine and get turned on. Now that I know what else is out there, photos are boring and the stuff that turns me on is way more hardcore. What happens when that gets boring?
Dan expects (let's face it, mostly women) to be GGG in regards to their partner's kinks, but when their kinks are driven by what they see in hardcore porn, is it really fair to expect the woman to adapt, or shouldn't the woman be able to push back and tell her partner to watch less fucking porn and rein that shit in?
I know it's definitely impacted my sexuality. I look at porn and get off on the women. Yet I'm not attracted to real life women. I go to nude spas and see naked women and none of them do a thing for me. I see women on the beach and feel nothing. If I did, I'd happily call myself bi or a lesbian. But because I grew up with these images that "this is what's sexy" via porn, I'm totally turned on by that one type of woman. I consider that a harmless effect of porn.
However, it used to also be enough for me to look at a Playboy magazine and get turned on. Now that I know what else is out there, photos are boring and the stuff that turns me on is way more hardcore. What happens when that gets boring?
Dan expects (let's face it, mostly women) to be GGG in regards to their partner's kinks, but when their kinks are driven by what they see in hardcore porn, is it really fair to expect the woman to adapt, or shouldn't the woman be able to push back and tell her partner to watch less fucking porn and rein that shit in?
50
It's interesting...whenever the question "is porn bad or not?" sparks a debate, the conversation is always rather conspicuously free of any recognition that not all porn is the same.
Almost as important is talking about how not all porn is viewed with the same attitude.
Anecdote: I do some nude art modeling at times, including photography. Sometimes even artistic photography can have an erotic edge to it. Naysayers and "concerned" friends point out that even artistic nude photos can be fapped to, but my thought is, the kind of guy who faps to artistic nudes is probably the kind of guy who sees women as people...or if not, fapping to artistic pictures might encourage him to do so a little more than some of the other crap out there.
Point is, HOW we portray human sexuality in media matters. If we didn't shame men into hiding their sexual media consumption, we might actually be able to shed enough of a light on the sex industry to turn it into something with a lot less potential to damage.
Almost as important is talking about how not all porn is viewed with the same attitude.
Anecdote: I do some nude art modeling at times, including photography. Sometimes even artistic photography can have an erotic edge to it. Naysayers and "concerned" friends point out that even artistic nude photos can be fapped to, but my thought is, the kind of guy who faps to artistic nudes is probably the kind of guy who sees women as people...or if not, fapping to artistic pictures might encourage him to do so a little more than some of the other crap out there.
Point is, HOW we portray human sexuality in media matters. If we didn't shame men into hiding their sexual media consumption, we might actually be able to shed enough of a light on the sex industry to turn it into something with a lot less potential to damage.
51
48 - well, I might be splitting hairs, but I'm not sure about using the same term to apply to both the shaming of male sexual expression and the shaming of women. They happen in such different ways and for different reasons, you know?
53
@29 - My same initial reaction. I erred on the side of seriousness.
@26 - oops! missed that comment. First things - I'm male, as evidenced by my picture. And my comment was meant more as a general statement. I've been on either end of the age/income spectrum, and had older girlfriends with more money buy me dinner, and me with the higher age and income buy a girlfriend dinner. Shit, I even had a girlfriend who made exactly as much as me and was 2 months younger. It's more of an act of arranging for an evening, of showing them a good time. Honestly, I don't really fret too much about it. Also right now I am single. Also, too, if they can't afford it, and would stress them out to go to a fancy place, but you still want to, why not pay for it? It's a no brainer to me. If you actually enjoy their presence, then wouldn't including them regardless of their money input be a better situation? Anywho, still not sure if trolling.
@26 - oops! missed that comment. First things - I'm male, as evidenced by my picture. And my comment was meant more as a general statement. I've been on either end of the age/income spectrum, and had older girlfriends with more money buy me dinner, and me with the higher age and income buy a girlfriend dinner. Shit, I even had a girlfriend who made exactly as much as me and was 2 months younger. It's more of an act of arranging for an evening, of showing them a good time. Honestly, I don't really fret too much about it. Also right now I am single. Also, too, if they can't afford it, and would stress them out to go to a fancy place, but you still want to, why not pay for it? It's a no brainer to me. If you actually enjoy their presence, then wouldn't including them regardless of their money input be a better situation? Anywho, still not sure if trolling.
54
@52 - Alas. I doubt he would.
Also...how likely is it, do you suppose, that this father would judge his daughter harshly for having "too many" sex partners or for being "too easy"? I'm not trying to blame the victim, here, but chances are a household with such stereotypically sex-negative views on men's sexuality will have the same attitudes towards that of women. (Though, of course, the big difference is that I'm sure the daughter would have some watered-down third-wave feminist jargon to fire back with while poor dad would have nothing for himself. Which brings us back to square one.)
Also...how likely is it, do you suppose, that this father would judge his daughter harshly for having "too many" sex partners or for being "too easy"? I'm not trying to blame the victim, here, but chances are a household with such stereotypically sex-negative views on men's sexuality will have the same attitudes towards that of women. (Though, of course, the big difference is that I'm sure the daughter would have some watered-down third-wave feminist jargon to fire back with while poor dad would have nothing for himself. Which brings us back to square one.)
55
@51 - Meh, I tend to disagree. I think it's generally a fear or reprimand of people making their own sexual choices. Some old-school puritanical bullshit. And I definitely have heard "man-slut" used plenty of times. I'm open to being wrong though.
56
Well, if different people use the world differently, who knows? But usually when we talk about slut-shaming, we're talking about women's issues and the things that women are shamed for that men aren't. So it seems to me that there ought to be a different term for the things we shame men for but somehow see as "empowering" and okay for women. I mean, who's going to deny a woman her book of erotica and her vibrator?
"Man slut" is interesting, but I find it's used in a different manner than "slut" as a slur against women. Call a man a slut and you're basically accusing him of failing to practice self-control, temperance, etc. It's almost affectionate sometimes. Call a woman a slut (in the slur sense, not the reclaimed sense) and you're saying that she's fundamentally sick and doing something very wrong. That's the same attitude I see directed at men for the porn stuff.
Terminology tends to sort itself out though, and what works best will be the thing that has sticking power. *shrugs* Ultimately, what's important is the conversation.
"Man slut" is interesting, but I find it's used in a different manner than "slut" as a slur against women. Call a man a slut and you're basically accusing him of failing to practice self-control, temperance, etc. It's almost affectionate sometimes. Call a woman a slut (in the slur sense, not the reclaimed sense) and you're saying that she's fundamentally sick and doing something very wrong. That's the same attitude I see directed at men for the porn stuff.
Terminology tends to sort itself out though, and what works best will be the thing that has sticking power. *shrugs* Ultimately, what's important is the conversation.
57
@36 The column in question is by Amy Dickinson, NOT by Carolyn Hax, who has a hell of a lot more clues than Amy.
58
#46, Yes, clearly I do have an axe to grind :) Luckily it's not my own, as I my husband is awesome and if he watches porn without me, I don't know about it.
But I'm tired of this conversation always being about how women need to accept male sexuality, when the topic of women's sexuality never comes up. Why aren't men being asked to consider what their viewing of women in their 20s does to their 50-year-old wife's self esteem, feelings of desirability, or desire to have sex with a man who clearly if given the choice would do it with the 20 year old?
Yes, my dad isn't a total wanker and he adores my mom, but my mom has had eating disorders since she was in her 40s and is constantly trying to look younger. She's 95lbs right now. When I try to talk to her about it, she claims it's due to pressure from my (obese) dad, who likes younger, thinner women.
But I'm tired of this conversation always being about how women need to accept male sexuality, when the topic of women's sexuality never comes up. Why aren't men being asked to consider what their viewing of women in their 20s does to their 50-year-old wife's self esteem, feelings of desirability, or desire to have sex with a man who clearly if given the choice would do it with the 20 year old?
Yes, my dad isn't a total wanker and he adores my mom, but my mom has had eating disorders since she was in her 40s and is constantly trying to look younger. She's 95lbs right now. When I try to talk to her about it, she claims it's due to pressure from my (obese) dad, who likes younger, thinner women.
59
Dan, the male equivalent of the "slut" label is "creep." "Creep" is the word that gets used to shame (het) guys, "creep" is the thing guys are afraid of being when they suppress the desires they have. You get a lot of letters from guys who don't want their partners to know they want to do (X) because they don't want to look like a creep.
61
@56 - personally used differently in my set of people I know. Slut in the sense of women means "has sex too much" not that they're sick or something. If someone called me a man slut I would be pretty offended. Likewise, in the context I know it, calling someone a man slut is a pretty big put-down. Again, this is a personal understanding. I'm not well versed on its society-wide usage/understanding.
62
I don't see why can't "slut shaming" be applied to men.
Also, the advice columnist should tell the kid to surreptitiously suggest their browser's "porn-mode". Possibly leave a window up in porn-mode, or a page describing porn-mode. Because, really, your porn history shouldn't show up in your browser's history on a shared computer, and clearing out the history just makes it conspicuously obvious you cleared something out you didn't want seen.
Also, the advice columnist should tell the kid to surreptitiously suggest their browser's "porn-mode". Possibly leave a window up in porn-mode, or a page describing porn-mode. Because, really, your porn history shouldn't show up in your browser's history on a shared computer, and clearing out the history just makes it conspicuously obvious you cleared something out you didn't want seen.
64
@59 - Yeah, but I fear if we start talking about "creep shaming," certain unsavory men will cry "creep shaming!" at times when we're talking about ACTUALLY creepy behavior.
There's no equivalent when talking about "actually slutty behavior" with women because actual slutty behavior is still a woman's right. Actually creepy behavior from men is not. The point is to separate normal male sexuality from that which is threatening to women.
There's no equivalent when talking about "actually slutty behavior" with women because actual slutty behavior is still a woman's right. Actually creepy behavior from men is not. The point is to separate normal male sexuality from that which is threatening to women.
66
At any rate, using the term "smut shaming" to refer to the practice of labeling a man as a "creep" just for enjoying porn seems like a good place to start.
67
If you watch enough porn you realize that there's lot's of variety and a lot of the men and women in it aren't that attractive to begin with. I can't count how many times I turned off or fast forward a porn movie because something was just so ridiculous or annoying I couldn't stop laughing or suppress my annoyance long enough to reach climax.
Bliffp, dude. I'm a chick. I've watched consensual gang bangs in porn, double penetration, and a whole host of stuff that when taken out of the context of adult entertainment I would agree is pretty gross. It doesn't mean I want to go out and get slammed by five different dudes in a thirty minute interval or that a dude I'm dating would expect me to be into that. And even if a partner wanted to incorporate something from porn into the bedroom, as an adult in a consensual sexual relationship I can express my feelings about what they're proposing and as partners we can make an intelligent decision together.
Plus with all the porn I've watched I still get uncomfortable watching movies or even discovery ID when they portray or elude to sexual assaults.
Anyways Porn is "out there" specifically because it's trying to keep you engaged by offering you something you'd be hesitant or outright grossed out to do yourself or ask someone else to do. Otherwise how are they going to make you pay $20 bucks for a movie or a fuzzy webcam video you'll be bored with in a few days?
Bliffp, dude. I'm a chick. I've watched consensual gang bangs in porn, double penetration, and a whole host of stuff that when taken out of the context of adult entertainment I would agree is pretty gross. It doesn't mean I want to go out and get slammed by five different dudes in a thirty minute interval or that a dude I'm dating would expect me to be into that. And even if a partner wanted to incorporate something from porn into the bedroom, as an adult in a consensual sexual relationship I can express my feelings about what they're proposing and as partners we can make an intelligent decision together.
Plus with all the porn I've watched I still get uncomfortable watching movies or even discovery ID when they portray or elude to sexual assaults.
Anyways Porn is "out there" specifically because it's trying to keep you engaged by offering you something you'd be hesitant or outright grossed out to do yourself or ask someone else to do. Otherwise how are they going to make you pay $20 bucks for a movie or a fuzzy webcam video you'll be bored with in a few days?
69
@24, @33 You know... we were all young once, and I think if we're active and healthy, that part of us lives on in our heads. When I look at my wife, sure, I can see her real age if I look for it, but mostly I don't. I still see the 20-something woman I married. It's always there, in her eyes, her smile, her touch. And when I watch porn, I don't want to undermine that by watching a bunch of old fogies. Yes, I know what reality is, but I also know how to incorporate healthy fantasy into it.
71
Ask Amy consistently makes me despair for humanity. The most recent such example (before this one) was a woman writing in to gently chastise another letter-writer for being an overprotective parent--she encouraged her to relax her rules a bit, giving an example from her own parenting: she now allows her 14 year-old daughter to take unsupervised walks in their neighborhood, as long as she takes her cell phone and a large dog. Because, you know, "you have to give them some freedom sometime." Amy applauded her good sense. Just to recap: a FOURTEEN year-old, only just recently permitted to take these high-security walks IN HER OWN NEIGHBORHOOD, and this is Amy's idea of exemplary free-range parenting, or whatever. It's the schoolmarmiest advice column out there.
72
@60, no fucking kidding. Abortion is being outlawed, contraception is under attack and equal pay is a non-starter. Why can't chicks be cool with porn? Men never get a break in this country.
73
@18 its amazing how misognists like you who always complain about misadndry actually have an even lower opinion of men than they have of women and a lower opinion of men than they accuse feminists/women/society of having--becuase you apparently believe that women=toilet="true male heterosexuality." most women/feminists/normal people believe that men are capable of love intimacy with an empathy for women, capable of having relationships with women that go beyond the excretory...
74
@58: "my husband is awesome and if he watches porn without me, I don't know about it."
DING! DING! DING!
DING! DING! DING!
75
@69, I couldn't agree with you more regarding @24.
My boyfriend and I were just discussing this the other day. I'm in my early 40s and he's in his 60s. We've known each other since I was only 19 but didn't get together as a couple until last year. My boyfriend has confessed that when I was only 19 and he was in his 40s, he used to really enjoy watching me walk around the office where we used to work. And now that he's in his 60s, he still finds 20 year-olds attractive.
I don't take that as meaning that he now wants to dump me and hook up with a 20 year-old. It just means that he, like many humans, find the human body at it's peak (between 18 and 25) to be very attractive.
And you know what? I'm the same way. When I see a ripped young man walking down the street with his shirt off, I look and think, "Damn, he is HOT!"
Does that mean that I now want to dump my 60-something boyfriend and fuck this young hottie? No for several reasons.
First, I love my boyfriend and only want to be with him. Second, for a man in his 60s my lover is quite athletic and has a better body than most 40 year-old men. And finally, I'm mature enough to recognize that experience counts in terms of being a good lover. That 20 year-old may have a hot body, but I'll bet he has very little idea of all the wonderful ways he could use it. By current lover is very aware of those things and keeps me quite satisfied.
@24, I read your second post where you admit you might have an axe to grind. It sounds like your mother and father have some communication and possible mental health issues (your mother's possible anorexia). I am sorry that this is your situation, but please do not project your issues onto everybody else and their ability to appreciate the human body in it's most perfect form (at a young age) but yet still enjoy fucking our much older partners, despite their lack of perfect form.
More...
My boyfriend and I were just discussing this the other day. I'm in my early 40s and he's in his 60s. We've known each other since I was only 19 but didn't get together as a couple until last year. My boyfriend has confessed that when I was only 19 and he was in his 40s, he used to really enjoy watching me walk around the office where we used to work. And now that he's in his 60s, he still finds 20 year-olds attractive.
I don't take that as meaning that he now wants to dump me and hook up with a 20 year-old. It just means that he, like many humans, find the human body at it's peak (between 18 and 25) to be very attractive.
And you know what? I'm the same way. When I see a ripped young man walking down the street with his shirt off, I look and think, "Damn, he is HOT!"
Does that mean that I now want to dump my 60-something boyfriend and fuck this young hottie? No for several reasons.
First, I love my boyfriend and only want to be with him. Second, for a man in his 60s my lover is quite athletic and has a better body than most 40 year-old men. And finally, I'm mature enough to recognize that experience counts in terms of being a good lover. That 20 year-old may have a hot body, but I'll bet he has very little idea of all the wonderful ways he could use it. By current lover is very aware of those things and keeps me quite satisfied.
@24, I read your second post where you admit you might have an axe to grind. It sounds like your mother and father have some communication and possible mental health issues (your mother's possible anorexia). I am sorry that this is your situation, but please do not project your issues onto everybody else and their ability to appreciate the human body in it's most perfect form (at a young age) but yet still enjoy fucking our much older partners, despite their lack of perfect form.
76
I was concerned when I found my dad's vibrator.
I asked my mom if he used it on her, and she laughed so hard she needed an inhaler.
What I know now? My dad is into tasteful mahogany sex-toys. Five speed.
I asked my mom if he used it on her, and she laughed so hard she needed an inhaler.
What I know now? My dad is into tasteful mahogany sex-toys. Five speed.
77
@69 Beautiful
@71 Some 14 year old girls do live in dangerous neighborhoods. I don't see how we can tell whether or not this girl does from the letter you reference.
@71 Some 14 year old girls do live in dangerous neighborhoods. I don't see how we can tell whether or not this girl does from the letter you reference.
79
only a Supreme douche would equate sex with a woman to taking a big dump (and telling that he thinks the only way most men get sex is by paying for it)
80
I wish this porn would stop harming me. It just keeps harming me and harming me, and not a thing I can do about it.. oh well.
81
Hah! I just read the offending Ask Amy column in the dead tree Washington Post, and thought, "Bet this makes it to Savage Blog." I log in and there it is right at the top! Yup, Ask Amy is there to be the last bastion of 'advice' for the few remaining Good And Decent People. Isn't she a scion of Abby or Landers?
82
I do not believe that "smut-shaming" or "smut" adequately indicates HEALTHY male sexuality.
How about "dick-stomping"? A dick is a perfectly natural part of the body, and while it can occasionally cause trouble, stomping on it is not the appropriate response.
How about "dick-stomping"? A dick is a perfectly natural part of the body, and while it can occasionally cause trouble, stomping on it is not the appropriate response.
84
Amy forgot the disclaimer "Snooping is always wrong!" Of course, most web browsers these days use the browsing history to autofill websites from a few keystrokes. So it's not that unlikely that someone could start typing "sl" for this site and find out that someone on the computer was going to sluttyslutslut.xxx or whereever.
But seriously, if dad is browsing porn on a shared computer the solution is a second computer. Not cause it's weird to know where your dad browses to jack off (it is), but because if he doesn't even know enough about computers to use private browsing for that is gonna download the wrong thing sooner rather than later.
But seriously, if dad is browsing porn on a shared computer the solution is a second computer. Not cause it's weird to know where your dad browses to jack off (it is), but because if he doesn't even know enough about computers to use private browsing for that is gonna download the wrong thing sooner rather than later.
87
@77--If a neighborhood is so dangerous that a 14 year-old taking a simple walk is a matter of note, then the whole family should be on lockdown.
88
@78 - Well, that's my point: slut-shaming is when you impose your definition of "too much" on someone else.
89
@72 - Gender equality isn't a zero-sum game. There can be a war on men and a war on women at the same time.
92
Ooh - I get to Waughsplain this post with one of my favourite passages from Brideshead Revisited, but I shall save it for after the conclusion of Murray-Ferrer.
94
Here we are, then, and actually it's a double Waughsplain. When I saw the thread, I reacted almost the way Anthony Blanche did on the day he returned to England and the talk at luncheon was about how Charles had jilted Celia for Julia on the very day of the gallery opening of Ryder's Latin America, when he finally gets his hostess to mention the pictures.
"'I call them downright unhealthy,' said Mrs Stuyvesant Oglander.
My dear, I could hardly keep still in my chair. I wanted to dash out of the house and leap in a taxi and say, 'Take me to Charles' unhealthy pictures.'"
Following the link, the misandry I expected to find made me recall Anthony at Oxford, taking Charles to dinner, describing Sebastian's family and giving an account of how, on Lady Marchmain's arrival in Venice, not only Lord Marchmain but also his host and anyone associated with them was snubbed quite roundly:
"Usually it arouses sympathy for the adulterer; not for Lord Marchmain though. You would think that the old reprobate had tortured her, stolen her patrimony, flung her out of doors, roasted, stuffed and eaten his children, and gone frolicking about wreathed in all the flowers of Sodom and Gomorrah..."
Given my expectations, the belief that "porn harms all parties" was somewhat on the tame side. Alas.
"'I call them downright unhealthy,' said Mrs Stuyvesant Oglander.
My dear, I could hardly keep still in my chair. I wanted to dash out of the house and leap in a taxi and say, 'Take me to Charles' unhealthy pictures.'"
Following the link, the misandry I expected to find made me recall Anthony at Oxford, taking Charles to dinner, describing Sebastian's family and giving an account of how, on Lady Marchmain's arrival in Venice, not only Lord Marchmain but also his host and anyone associated with them was snubbed quite roundly:
"Usually it arouses sympathy for the adulterer; not for Lord Marchmain though. You would think that the old reprobate had tortured her, stolen her patrimony, flung her out of doors, roasted, stuffed and eaten his children, and gone frolicking about wreathed in all the flowers of Sodom and Gomorrah..."
Given my expectations, the belief that "porn harms all parties" was somewhat on the tame side. Alas.
96
Gee Dan, Amy is a terrible example of an advice columnist, yet she is the first link offered for advice columnists on your main page! Perhaps you should put your mouth where your money is...?
97
Amy Dickinson is a distant relative of Emily Dickinson, but her writing leaves much to be desired.
@14: It's "discreetly," not "discretely":
discreet adj. Showing discernment or judgement in the guidance of one’s own speech and action; judicious, prudent, circumspect, cautious; often esp. that can be silent when speech would be inconvenient.
discrete adj. Separate, detached from others, individually distinct. Opposed to continuous.
-- http://www.dailywritingtips.com/the-diff…
@14: It's "discreetly," not "discretely":
discreet adj. Showing discernment or judgement in the guidance of one’s own speech and action; judicious, prudent, circumspect, cautious; often esp. that can be silent when speech would be inconvenient.
discrete adj. Separate, detached from others, individually distinct. Opposed to continuous.
-- http://www.dailywritingtips.com/the-diff…
98
Oh for fuck's sake... I thought sex-positive feminism killed the (non-Christian) anti-porn movement dead, but lo and behold: this. Look asshats, unless you're going to somehow claim that filming oneself masturbating and then watching it to get oneself off is somehow harmful to one, you CANNOT in good faith make the universal claim that pornography is bad (see, I only need one counterexample, however unlikely - though this one isn't - to dismiss a universal claim). Once we've recognized that not all porn is the same, and not all of it is harmful, we can start paying attention to CONTEXT and specific factors that make porn harmful or not.
Anyway, letter #1 in Ask Amy is (in part) why every fucking contemporary operating system has support for MULTIPLE USER PROFILES. USE THEM.
Anyway, letter #1 in Ask Amy is (in part) why every fucking contemporary operating system has support for MULTIPLE USER PROFILES. USE THEM.
99
@93 I'm being deliberately hyperbolic to counter someone who seems to be deliberately missing my point: which is that Ask Amy's primness and general shame- and fear-mongering extends far beyond the reaches of issues of porn or sex in general and into areas of stoking reactionary parenting (as in the example I gave).
But to make my point in a more expansive way: if a young person lives in a neighborhood that is safe enough for her to venture out unsupervised at age 14, then it's safe enough for her to have ventured out unsupervised long before age 14. The person to whom I was responding brought up the possibility of a "dangerous neighborhood," and certainly there are neighborhoods that are not conducive to leisurely walks. But if that's the case, presumably walks would be entirely out of the equation, rather than delayed until age 14, when for some reason it becomes magically safe to stop barricading kids in the house.
But to make my point in a more expansive way: if a young person lives in a neighborhood that is safe enough for her to venture out unsupervised at age 14, then it's safe enough for her to have ventured out unsupervised long before age 14. The person to whom I was responding brought up the possibility of a "dangerous neighborhood," and certainly there are neighborhoods that are not conducive to leisurely walks. But if that's the case, presumably walks would be entirely out of the equation, rather than delayed until age 14, when for some reason it becomes magically safe to stop barricading kids in the house.
101
@99, it's not that it magically becomes safe at 14, it's that 14 is when they start crawling out the window at night if you haven't given them any freedom during the day.
Insofar as your point is that AskAmy should be less prudish and fear-mongering, I agree with you.
Insofar as your point is that some mother you've never met, in some neighborhood you've never visited, is a Bad Mother, I don't see any evidence to support that case.
Insofar as your point is that AskAmy should be less prudish and fear-mongering, I agree with you.
Insofar as your point is that some mother you've never met, in some neighborhood you've never visited, is a Bad Mother, I don't see any evidence to support that case.
102
@101--I don't have any idea if the letter writer is a "Bad Mother," however we're defining that loaded idea right now. Of course I don't have enough information to do an in-depth analysis of her parenting. I'm talking about a particular parenting *decision* she made, with which I disagree, and the explanation she provided for it, which I don't buy, and how said decision falls into a certain set of ideas about parenting and children and safety that are currently in vogue (ideas to which that letter-writer may or may not subscribe wholesale; I of course have no idea nor is that relevant to my original point). This is relevant to Ask Amy, and therefore to Dan's original blog post, because these are the sorts of fear-driven ideas to which Amy regularly gives a platform and her endorsement. I didn't say "Ask Amy's readers are bad mothers!" I said, in effect, that Ask Amy's column promotes ideas that I find "schoolmarmy."
103
No fair, Dan. Advice column fans - female fans! - routinely bash Amy for her bad advice and judgmentalism. Read the comments on her column and you'll see.
When Prudie defends porn you say that no other (female) advice columnist would ever do that (not true) and when Amy bashes porn you say, Aha, See?
IMO neither one is that great. Both answer mainly from their preconceived notions. Prudie just happens to have a preconceived notion that you like.
What makes you a good advice columnist, Dan, is that you do NOT simply take the "pro-sex" stance, but actually respond to the nuances of the situation. Thus, you sometimes come down on the side of the kinkster, and sometimes against, depending on who is being the asshole. That's why Prudie's swipe at you regarding the cross-dressing husband was so utterly ridiculous.
When Prudie defends porn you say that no other (female) advice columnist would ever do that (not true) and when Amy bashes porn you say, Aha, See?
IMO neither one is that great. Both answer mainly from their preconceived notions. Prudie just happens to have a preconceived notion that you like.
What makes you a good advice columnist, Dan, is that you do NOT simply take the "pro-sex" stance, but actually respond to the nuances of the situation. Thus, you sometimes come down on the side of the kinkster, and sometimes against, depending on who is being the asshole. That's why Prudie's swipe at you regarding the cross-dressing husband was so utterly ridiculous.
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