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News & ArtsFriday, July 20, 2012
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: A Pair of DTMFAs
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 3:29 PM
I have been in a straight, monogamous relationship for a little over a year. I have always been the sex partner in this relationship who initiates sexual activity. Despite being open to any and all variations, I am always faced with an excuse as to why intercourse isn't on the menu. Whether it be the "mood," the stress of an impending early work day, or the fact that he's already masturbated, I am almost always met with refusal. When we do have sex, we both enjoy it, and he always comments on the fact that he "doesn't know why he always initially refuses," as he finds sex so enjoyable when he does have it. I find this behavior frustrating and confusing. While I try not to allow it to influence the way I feel about myself, I am beginning to find that difficult. Friends have suggested a porn dependency, infidelity, body issues—something—but none of these things seem to fit. He has suggested that I'm some kind of nymphomaniac and has attempted to paint what in my opinion is a fairly normal desire for intimacy as a sex addiction. I know that sex drives don't necessarily match, and I generally embrace our differences, but I'm starting to feel a little desperate. I have communicated my feelings and have tried to be patient, understanding and willing to talk it out—all to no avail. I'm at a loss. What's up with not getting it up?
Feeling Really Inadequate, Guessing It's Doomed
A sex partner who rarely wants to have sex with you, says infuriating things on those rare occasions when he condescends to have sex with you, and shames you for wanting to have sex at all... is worse than no sex partner at all. DTMFA.
Bonus DTMFA letter after the jump...
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I'm currently in my first relationship with a Chinese guy. Normally I wouldnt mention his race but in this case it is a factor in my problem. I did not want to lose my virginity but his constant reactions to my saying no eventually got to me. I am not naturally a sexual person but with him I do end up feeling more sexual than normal. I do not hate sex anymore. He, however, hates oral sex so much and does not like fingering much either because he is disgusted by the liquid that comes out of a girl's vagina. I can't help that it does that! And because of that he only wants to stick his penis in me. I do not feel much from sex and I take a long time to come and he has made it clear that he does not want to put in the effort required to get me off. I am not good at sex myself either because it is my first time and I still cant figure out how to move right. I do my best and I will do oral sex and handjobs for him because I want to see him happy. I do not know what to do, I really care about this boy but my sex life is so unsatisfying and I do not want to be this way for the rest of my life. I like having oral done to me and the same thing with fingering but I dont like it when it is only done for five minutes—which is the maximum length of time he can stand it—and I have talked to him about this a lot but he just gets mad and tells me to stop forcing him to do things he doesn't want to do. He even brings up his last girlfriend. She, he says, did everything he asked without asking for anything in return. I want us to work but I dont know how to deal with this. Is there something I can do? some place I can learn to be better so that I can try to get him to do more for me? He told me to get a vibrator so that he could use it on me but it is not the same as a person's touch. I do not want for him to never touch me if I get one so I am not sure if that is a good idea.
Feeling Totally Neglected
I don't see how this guy's race factors into your problem, FTN. Chinese, Croat, Scot, Turk, Thai, or Kenyan: this guy isn't worthy of your time, your efforts, or your vaginal secretions. But I am going to second his advice and urge you to buy yourself a vibrator. Trust me: a vibrator would be a huge improvement over this selfish, entitled, lying douchebag. (His previous girlfriend did whatever he wanted and asked nothing in return? Really? Have you confirmed that with her?) DTMFA.
Hey, straight female "Savage Love" readers: A lot of you have been there, right? You wasted months or years on some entitled asshole you thought you could fix—a guy who slut-shamed you, a guy who manipulated you—but now you're in solid relationships with decent guys. How did you learn to spot the difference between assholes like the ones FRIGID and FTN are currently wasting their time on and the guys you're with now? Share your hard-earned wisdom with FRIGID and FTN in the comments thread.
1
I would start by suggesting that a gentleman unwilling to put his fingers somewhere he desires his penis to go has a few things to iron out in his own mind.
2
I've been in my fair share of "abusive" relationships, thinking I learned something from the last one only to have blinders on about something else in the next one. Until now. Every red flag is taken seriously.
My last relationship lasted 10 years, and for a while it was ok. He was a nice guy, and everyone seemed to love him. But the last 3 years or so were wasted on my trying to making something work because I thought that is what you were supposed to do. Wasn't a relationship that long worth saving? I hate to say it, but everything is more clear in hindsight. I can see now what a shit he was. All those tiny jabs that I laughed off? All those days I got home from work and he was already at the bar? I can see the overall theme of our relationship as me being the caretaker, and he was just the taker, undermining my self worth when he could. I also thought I was one of those people that didn't like sex. Actually, I just didn't like sex with him.
I was the one that finally had the balls to leave (I gave him a chance to change, and after 6 months decided I was done), and I left everything behind and haven't looked back. I'm in a great relationship now with a person I love, have great sex, and that I actually share life with. I will be the first to tell you if it doesn't feel right, it is wrong. You can find someone that makes you happy - don't settle for someone you are trying to make it work with, because it won't.
My last relationship lasted 10 years, and for a while it was ok. He was a nice guy, and everyone seemed to love him. But the last 3 years or so were wasted on my trying to making something work because I thought that is what you were supposed to do. Wasn't a relationship that long worth saving? I hate to say it, but everything is more clear in hindsight. I can see now what a shit he was. All those tiny jabs that I laughed off? All those days I got home from work and he was already at the bar? I can see the overall theme of our relationship as me being the caretaker, and he was just the taker, undermining my self worth when he could. I also thought I was one of those people that didn't like sex. Actually, I just didn't like sex with him.
I was the one that finally had the balls to leave (I gave him a chance to change, and after 6 months decided I was done), and I left everything behind and haven't looked back. I'm in a great relationship now with a person I love, have great sex, and that I actually share life with. I will be the first to tell you if it doesn't feel right, it is wrong. You can find someone that makes you happy - don't settle for someone you are trying to make it work with, because it won't.
3
@1 yeah that was weird.
How do you spot the difference? Beats me. I like it if a guy reads Dan Savage for one thing. I also have better luck with men who watch (and like to share) porn, for whatever reason.
For me it's been sort of a crap-shoot. I'll start dating a guy who seems nice, and then in bed he turns out to be selfish and aloof. I tend to have pretty good luck with nerdy introverts like myself, but that just may be a personality thing. Men who shame me for wanting sex (with them!) get the boot in the ass.
How do you spot the difference? Beats me. I like it if a guy reads Dan Savage for one thing. I also have better luck with men who watch (and like to share) porn, for whatever reason.
For me it's been sort of a crap-shoot. I'll start dating a guy who seems nice, and then in bed he turns out to be selfish and aloof. I tend to have pretty good luck with nerdy introverts like myself, but that just may be a personality thing. Men who shame me for wanting sex (with them!) get the boot in the ass.
4
I have nothing - no idea why these women don't dump these guys on their own initiative. The only comparable experience I have is one guy I dated, who, after a month, suggested that I start dressing differently. I said I wasn't interested - he brought it up again the next day and I dumped him.
I think if he said my vaginal lube was disgusting, um, well, I think his head would spin over how fast I would have slammed the door on my way out - and that story would have spread like wild all over the college too.
I can't even imagine who would actually say that to a women he was trying to have sex with. WTF.
I think if he said my vaginal lube was disgusting, um, well, I think his head would spin over how fast I would have slammed the door on my way out - and that story would have spread like wild all over the college too.
I can't even imagine who would actually say that to a women he was trying to have sex with. WTF.
5
500 pages of Savage, minimum. If he hasn't read it, and won't read it for you, he's *definitely* not worth the effort.
7
Hard to figure how to spot a winner. Probably has a lot to do with how much I got to know myself. And accepted reality -- you know the adage about accepting things you cannot change. I think you can learn about yourself with every relationship, especially what you value, when, like Dan says, you DTMFA.
9
in college, I was involved in various configurations (bf, fuck buddies, semi-antagonism/nothing-in-particular-but-if-we-both-ended-up-in-the-same-place-because-of-a-hobby-which-happened-a-few-times-a-year-we-always-fucked, ect), and they broke down into two "types":
1) nice boys who wouldn't fuck me. who would give me annoyingly patronizing spiels about how they respected me, therefore they'd never do that to me. or, on one memorable occasion, a christian boy who refused to see me anymore after we made out and rolled around in his bed because "he doesn't do that kind of thing."
2) guys who treated me pretty crappy but WOULD FUCK ME or fuck around with me.
I ended up marrying a nice guy I met who I fucked the night I met him, after swearing that we werent going to get involved because I didn't want a bf, ect. He didn't shame or judge me for it. He liked it, because I like sex, and likes a woman who likes sex. boom.
1) nice boys who wouldn't fuck me. who would give me annoyingly patronizing spiels about how they respected me, therefore they'd never do that to me. or, on one memorable occasion, a christian boy who refused to see me anymore after we made out and rolled around in his bed because "he doesn't do that kind of thing."
2) guys who treated me pretty crappy but WOULD FUCK ME or fuck around with me.
I ended up marrying a nice guy I met who I fucked the night I met him, after swearing that we werent going to get involved because I didn't want a bf, ect. He didn't shame or judge me for it. He liked it, because I like sex, and likes a woman who likes sex. boom.
10
Just last week, my divorce was finalized and I have finally, completely, dumped the mother fucker. How to identify these assholes before getting involved? I have no idea. I've read a number of books on the subject and they all repeat the same thing - you can't tell. Just as good as human beings are at detecting a person's character, another one is equally good at concealing it. Also, assholes might start relationships on good behavior fully expecting to continue their good behavior forever. Then the buzz of new wears off and they begin to notice they don't have to put themselves out as much as the other party in the relationship, because the woman is more invested in it than they are. And so they start taking advantage of that, a little at a time, and it builds up to a breaking point when ... well, it breaks. And they might go to great effort to get their gravy train back, but they'll do the same thing all over again, slowly ratcheting up the pressure until they find the point where they can get away with the maximum amount of whatever. I've read compilations of interviews and counseling of these jerks. They know they're doing it, but they do it anyway, because they see no reason not to. After all, the women are putting up with it.
The only choices I can see are 1) never get emotionally invested in someone and always be prepared to dump them at the first sign of a red flag, or 2) risk love and take your chances, knowing that there are a lot of assholes out there who will abuse you.
The only choices I can see are 1) never get emotionally invested in someone and always be prepared to dump them at the first sign of a red flag, or 2) risk love and take your chances, knowing that there are a lot of assholes out there who will abuse you.
11
Wanted to add:
I know why the women are putting up with it because I was in that situation for a long time. I had no expectation that he would change. I didn't think things would get better. (Well, I thought it possible he might die.) Weighing all of my available choices, staying in the relationship seemed better than leaving. I didn't leave until I had set up circumstances where I would get primary custody of my kids and retain as much of my earnings as possible. If you want to get women out of abusive situations, you have to provide them a better situation to get into. That means protection from the things I thought my ex would do (because he'd said he would):
> Take the kids, get full custody
> Garnish my wages for child support
> Get the majority of the assets, including forcing me to sell my home
> He might attack me
> He might attack any lover I took
> He would try to inflict legal difficulties and harassment on anyone (especially my family) who tried to help me
> Interfere with my ability to work
> Damage or sabotage my vehicle
These sorts of threats are VERY common in situations of abuse. Also common are reactions like I heard when I went to people and told them about my situation: "You married him. You can't back out now.", "It can't be that bad. He seems so nice.", "Are you sure he's not kidding?", "All men are that way if their wife leaves them. That's why there's all these guys murdering their exes and stuff.", "There are two sides to every story.", "Takes two to tango.", "Just do what he tells you to do and stop fighting about it.", "Pick your battles more carefully.", and my favorite for sheer-bull-shittedness, "Just give him more blow jobs."
And for those who decide to wade back into romance with straight men, be aware in all cases that if you get abused, society's knee-jerk reaction is that you deserved it, or enabled it. Things seem to be changing, but the very fact that abuse is still so excused and closeted tells me we have a long way to go.
More...
I know why the women are putting up with it because I was in that situation for a long time. I had no expectation that he would change. I didn't think things would get better. (Well, I thought it possible he might die.) Weighing all of my available choices, staying in the relationship seemed better than leaving. I didn't leave until I had set up circumstances where I would get primary custody of my kids and retain as much of my earnings as possible. If you want to get women out of abusive situations, you have to provide them a better situation to get into. That means protection from the things I thought my ex would do (because he'd said he would):
> Take the kids, get full custody
> Garnish my wages for child support
> Get the majority of the assets, including forcing me to sell my home
> He might attack me
> He might attack any lover I took
> He would try to inflict legal difficulties and harassment on anyone (especially my family) who tried to help me
> Interfere with my ability to work
> Damage or sabotage my vehicle
These sorts of threats are VERY common in situations of abuse. Also common are reactions like I heard when I went to people and told them about my situation: "You married him. You can't back out now.", "It can't be that bad. He seems so nice.", "Are you sure he's not kidding?", "All men are that way if their wife leaves them. That's why there's all these guys murdering their exes and stuff.", "There are two sides to every story.", "Takes two to tango.", "Just do what he tells you to do and stop fighting about it.", "Pick your battles more carefully.", and my favorite for sheer-bull-shittedness, "Just give him more blow jobs."
And for those who decide to wade back into romance with straight men, be aware in all cases that if you get abused, society's knee-jerk reaction is that you deserved it, or enabled it. Things seem to be changing, but the very fact that abuse is still so excused and closeted tells me we have a long way to go.
12
I'm not sure how to spot the douchebags yet, but I think I've made a step in the right direction.
For about 10 years, I would put up with a lot of inequality in an effort to make my boyfriends happy. I never got dumped, but ended up in a string of 2 year relationships that made me very sad and ultimately led to some bitter breakups.
Then, for the last year or so, I started asking for more of what I wanted from my boyfriends. I get dumped way more now, but at least my relationships are shorter. As it turns out, there are a lot of people out there, and a lot of them are probably willing to try fucking you.
So I guess what it comes down to is it's better to find out if someone's not right in 2 months rather than 2 years. Don't be afraid of being rejected - it's a big world, there are a lot of people out there, and all the time you're with someone who isn't a match is time you're taking away from finding someone who could be.
For about 10 years, I would put up with a lot of inequality in an effort to make my boyfriends happy. I never got dumped, but ended up in a string of 2 year relationships that made me very sad and ultimately led to some bitter breakups.
Then, for the last year or so, I started asking for more of what I wanted from my boyfriends. I get dumped way more now, but at least my relationships are shorter. As it turns out, there are a lot of people out there, and a lot of them are probably willing to try fucking you.
So I guess what it comes down to is it's better to find out if someone's not right in 2 months rather than 2 years. Don't be afraid of being rejected - it's a big world, there are a lot of people out there, and all the time you're with someone who isn't a match is time you're taking away from finding someone who could be.
13
Learn what you want, either from books, therapy, self reflection, experience, or all of the above. Be assertive early and often about what you need physically and emotionally. If he is an asshole in response, DTMFA.
Helps if he is a porn loving feminist.
Helps if he is a porn loving feminist.
14
I think first you need to know yourself: what do you like/hate? What makes you happy/sad? What do you enjoy doing? And then you need to realize that whatever those things are, you have a right to feel them, experience them, and expect them. We are all these unique, odd beings and we are supremely okay.
Then you need to learn to trust your gut. Did that statement he just said seem hinky? Go with that. That thing he just did seems weird? Go with that. You could be wrong, but so what? You are probably right and the worst that happens is that you don't spend time with someone who maybe isn't quite that hinky, but after a while will be not quite right for you, either.
Finally, you need to learn to watch and listen. Ask questions, listen to the answers. Watch how people behave, how they interact with other people, how they walk in the world. Don't be afraid to judge--we're not talking about judging people's lifestyles, but rather how they will be in your life.
You deserve to be happy and you deserve someone who will treat you right. Be sure to extend the same treatment to others in your life. Be fair, be generous, be thoughtful, but don't be a doormat.
How to spot someone who is an abuser? Easier, perhaps, to spot someone who isn't. Do they accept you wholly, without reservation? Are they willing to go to Comic Con with you even if it isn't their cup o tea? Do they have friends from way back? Do they have a good relationship with at least one member of their family (as long as they haven't escaped from some mad cult), do they treat other people with respect? Are they honest about their lives? Do they listen to you when you talk?
There are easy signs of abusers: Love that comes with restrictions, cutting you away from your friends and family, asking you to do things (besides go to Comic Con) that you aren't comfortable with and they know it, demands that are unreasonable/irrational.
But it seems most important to listen to that voice that niggles at you. Too many of us have been trained to not listen to that voice, to be forgiving no matter what, to not judge. Screw that. This is your life you are talking about, not the choice of restaurant. Listen to that voice. It is always right.
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Then you need to learn to trust your gut. Did that statement he just said seem hinky? Go with that. That thing he just did seems weird? Go with that. You could be wrong, but so what? You are probably right and the worst that happens is that you don't spend time with someone who maybe isn't quite that hinky, but after a while will be not quite right for you, either.
Finally, you need to learn to watch and listen. Ask questions, listen to the answers. Watch how people behave, how they interact with other people, how they walk in the world. Don't be afraid to judge--we're not talking about judging people's lifestyles, but rather how they will be in your life.
You deserve to be happy and you deserve someone who will treat you right. Be sure to extend the same treatment to others in your life. Be fair, be generous, be thoughtful, but don't be a doormat.
How to spot someone who is an abuser? Easier, perhaps, to spot someone who isn't. Do they accept you wholly, without reservation? Are they willing to go to Comic Con with you even if it isn't their cup o tea? Do they have friends from way back? Do they have a good relationship with at least one member of their family (as long as they haven't escaped from some mad cult), do they treat other people with respect? Are they honest about their lives? Do they listen to you when you talk?
There are easy signs of abusers: Love that comes with restrictions, cutting you away from your friends and family, asking you to do things (besides go to Comic Con) that you aren't comfortable with and they know it, demands that are unreasonable/irrational.
But it seems most important to listen to that voice that niggles at you. Too many of us have been trained to not listen to that voice, to be forgiving no matter what, to not judge. Screw that. This is your life you are talking about, not the choice of restaurant. Listen to that voice. It is always right.
15
I thought a while about how to answer this question, and the real answer is that it's not at all about learning how to spot a good or bad man, it's everything about taking some time off of dating and hammering it into your head that you are worthwhile. You are intelligent and attractive and self-possessed and have no obligation to take shit from people.
And then once you believe you don't *have* to put up with someone's bad behavior because you are so terrible yourself how do you have any right to complain, then you won't pick the bad ones.
It has also helped me to decide beforehand on what actions I see as prerequisite (or as deal breakers) and what qualifies as a red flag.
For me they have been:
*No slut shaming
*No beliefs in the inherent qualities of men or women
*An ability to give criticism or say they don't like something without making you feel like shit
*Ability to take criticism without throwing a temper tantrum
*Genuinely caring if you are enjoying the sex you are both having (and a clear intent not to have sex or to stop if you're not enjoying it)
*Willingness to share labor / costs related to the relationship
Also, @Dan: you have bisexual female readers too!
And then once you believe you don't *have* to put up with someone's bad behavior because you are so terrible yourself how do you have any right to complain, then you won't pick the bad ones.
It has also helped me to decide beforehand on what actions I see as prerequisite (or as deal breakers) and what qualifies as a red flag.
For me they have been:
*No slut shaming
*No beliefs in the inherent qualities of men or women
*An ability to give criticism or say they don't like something without making you feel like shit
*Ability to take criticism without throwing a temper tantrum
*Genuinely caring if you are enjoying the sex you are both having (and a clear intent not to have sex or to stop if you're not enjoying it)
*Willingness to share labor / costs related to the relationship
Also, @Dan: you have bisexual female readers too!
16
This might set the bar a little high, but here are some tips I thought of when thinking of my kickass, handsome, smart, sexually fulfilling man. There are also contrasting things I came up with when thinking about the fools I dated before him. Also, these all apply to women who have their shit together and aren't insecure/crazy:
1. He should be fun to talk to. He should not make fun of what you say or make you feel stupid when you converse.
2. He should be kind to your friends and not talk shit about them, even if he doesn't love them.
3. This one is a cliche, but it's been tried and true for me: he should be nice to his mom and do favors for her when she asks. He may complain to you about it, but not to his mom.
4. He should enthusiastically, and without question, eat your pussy the first opportunity he gets. Provided you have normal vaginal health, he should not ever complain about the taste or look of your vagina. If you get close enough and he admits he prefers less hair or something later on, that's different, but don't let him chastise your vadge right off the bat. That's an entitled jerk right there.
5. He should enjoy making you come, even if it is a bit difficult sometimes, because that's a turn on for him and because he cares about your pleasure.
6. IF HE EVER SHAMES YOU FOR ANY REASON, DTMFA. The things we do which are truly shameful, we are aware of and don't need the people who say they love us to make us feel worse. And if he shames you for something that isn't shameful at all (your love for sex, or maybe that you don't act like a "lady" should from his perspective), he's a controlling piece of shit. Similarly, he should be there for you when you feel bad about yourself.
7. IF YOU EVER FEAR HIM FOR ANY REASON, DTMFA. Fear is the opposite of a warm, trustworthy, loving relationship. You should not be afraid of someone who claims to care for you. Dreading an argument, maybe, but if you are ever truly afraid of him, I guarantee it's because he intends it to be that way.
8. He should be a nice drunk.
9. He should never treat you like a hassle, an obligation, or something he has to "deal with."
And a bonus one, which works for me, but might not be something others agree on:
10. He should be kind of awkward around women. Smooth talkers are good at talking, and usually so that they can pick up girls. An awkward guy is someone who is honest, because he lacks the skills to do that kind of schmoozing. He won't pick up other girls, and he's not a douche who you fell for because he knows what kind of bullshit to say.
More...
1. He should be fun to talk to. He should not make fun of what you say or make you feel stupid when you converse.
2. He should be kind to your friends and not talk shit about them, even if he doesn't love them.
3. This one is a cliche, but it's been tried and true for me: he should be nice to his mom and do favors for her when she asks. He may complain to you about it, but not to his mom.
4. He should enthusiastically, and without question, eat your pussy the first opportunity he gets. Provided you have normal vaginal health, he should not ever complain about the taste or look of your vagina. If you get close enough and he admits he prefers less hair or something later on, that's different, but don't let him chastise your vadge right off the bat. That's an entitled jerk right there.
5. He should enjoy making you come, even if it is a bit difficult sometimes, because that's a turn on for him and because he cares about your pleasure.
6. IF HE EVER SHAMES YOU FOR ANY REASON, DTMFA. The things we do which are truly shameful, we are aware of and don't need the people who say they love us to make us feel worse. And if he shames you for something that isn't shameful at all (your love for sex, or maybe that you don't act like a "lady" should from his perspective), he's a controlling piece of shit. Similarly, he should be there for you when you feel bad about yourself.
7. IF YOU EVER FEAR HIM FOR ANY REASON, DTMFA. Fear is the opposite of a warm, trustworthy, loving relationship. You should not be afraid of someone who claims to care for you. Dreading an argument, maybe, but if you are ever truly afraid of him, I guarantee it's because he intends it to be that way.
8. He should be a nice drunk.
9. He should never treat you like a hassle, an obligation, or something he has to "deal with."
And a bonus one, which works for me, but might not be something others agree on:
10. He should be kind of awkward around women. Smooth talkers are good at talking, and usually so that they can pick up girls. An awkward guy is someone who is honest, because he lacks the skills to do that kind of schmoozing. He won't pick up other girls, and he's not a douche who you fell for because he knows what kind of bullshit to say.
17
Check out the friends. Are there lots of them? Old and new? Close or just acquaintances? In many contexts or all from one activity? Listen for people who know him well trying to tactfully warn you about him. Don't realize this in retrospect after the shit comes down -- take your love-muffs off, listen for it up front, and if you must bone him anyway, protect yourself.
Check out the exes, and his feelings about them. Does he keep in touch? Do they seem like good people? Are any of them batshit? Sometimes I think you should forgive one crazy ex -- anyone can be that unlucky one time -- but sometimes I think one is one too many. More than one is 100% ALWAYS too many. You could be the next person he drives batshit crazy. Yes Virginia, people can do that to each other, and some of them enjoy it.
And yeah I'm with Dan: if he thinks vaginal lube is disgusting, take a walk. He's not ready for sex.
Check out the exes, and his feelings about them. Does he keep in touch? Do they seem like good people? Are any of them batshit? Sometimes I think you should forgive one crazy ex -- anyone can be that unlucky one time -- but sometimes I think one is one too many. More than one is 100% ALWAYS too many. You could be the next person he drives batshit crazy. Yes Virginia, people can do that to each other, and some of them enjoy it.
And yeah I'm with Dan: if he thinks vaginal lube is disgusting, take a walk. He's not ready for sex.
18
Three strikes, you're out. First crappy sex could be not knowing preferences, second could be bad luck, third is he's not trying hard enough and he can practice on someone else.
With reasonable feedback, of course. But seriously, it's not that hard to fuck well.
With reasonable feedback, of course. But seriously, it's not that hard to fuck well.
19
As for the stuff that really builds a relationship, work on that too, but don't waste your time if he won't even try to get the sex right.
21
The only rule of thumb I can think of is that you shouldn't tolerate any behavior that you'd consider unacceptable in yourself. Wouldn't treat a guy the way he treats you because you're a better person than that shit? DTMFA. Kind of the golden rule in reverse.
22
I just got this magazine app and have overloaded on women's magazines this month. One had a stat that said 87% of women polled said they usually fake sex noises to stroke their partner's ego.
Another featured an article by Salon Magazine sex columnist who admitted she faked every single orgasm she had in her 20s out of fear that her boyfriends would get bored with the amount of time it took her to come, among other things. All this while writing columns on sex positivism for women.
I think if women stop objectifying themselves during the act and start focusing on their own pleasure (i.e., start fucking like a guy), it'd solve a lot of their problems.
Another featured an article by Salon Magazine sex columnist who admitted she faked every single orgasm she had in her 20s out of fear that her boyfriends would get bored with the amount of time it took her to come, among other things. All this while writing columns on sex positivism for women.
I think if women stop objectifying themselves during the act and start focusing on their own pleasure (i.e., start fucking like a guy), it'd solve a lot of their problems.
23
Also, I finally broke my string of asshole boyfriends and started to enjoy dating again after I read a book called _ReEvolution: How to Date Like a Man and Get Away With It_ by Rachael Zavala. It's not really how to "date like a man" so much as date like a person with self-respect and the capacity for pleasure. I'd post a link but I don't really know how. It's easy enough to find on Amazon.
24
These comments are so good! I'm in my late thirties so I know both how true so much of this advice rings and how hard it is to follow it in the middle of a powerfully emotional relationship. I have nothing to add except that it's worth the initial pain of separation to avoid years of having your self-esteem gently and subtly kicked to shit.
Being slut-shamed for having an active libido is something I will no longer tolerate. The guys who do that are seriously and perhaps permanently immature. You're not a porn star, you're not the madonna, but you are a totally sexy sexual being. Get out and enjoy all that is beautiful and human, and he can go fuck himself while he watches porn stars he never has to touch.
Being slut-shamed for having an active libido is something I will no longer tolerate. The guys who do that are seriously and perhaps permanently immature. You're not a porn star, you're not the madonna, but you are a totally sexy sexual being. Get out and enjoy all that is beautiful and human, and he can go fuck himself while he watches porn stars he never has to touch.
25
I love what #16 says! I'd also say a lot of the advice that Gavin de Becker gives in "The Gift of Fear" is actually really good in general--wake up to what's really going on, trust your gut instincts, and care enough about yourself to demand the right treatment or leave when you don't get it.
26
My experience jibes with each of the items on @16's list. The problem is that other men I dated before my made-of-awesome husband had most of the same characteristics _at first_. As time went by I saw a different side of them, particularly relating to #6 (being shamed and made to feel defective).
Unfortunately, when someone makes you feel great most of the time and only awful once in a while, it's easy to get conditioned to the point where you are willing to feel awful most of the time in return for the faint hope of feeling great once in a while. That's why so many people end up staying in relationships that are obviously far inferior to vibrators.
This is a very difficult trap to avoid and you should give yourself a break for falling into it. The only advice I can offer is that you and your partner should each think the other is awesome from the very beginning. Not okay or fixer-upper material, but absolutely amazing from the get-go. If the relationship seems based on the expectation that you will change or that whatever is unsatisfactory about the relationship is something wrong with you, you are setting yourself for a cycle of psychological abuse. Yes, I know that people do change in or even because of relationships, but that can't be the basis of the relationship.
Another word about that list, specifically, #4: my husband is an enthusiastic but infrequent pussy-eater and he only does it on his own initiative when I'm straight out of the shower. From this I infer that he doesn't really like the taste, but he has too much common sense to make an issue out of it, and it doesn't detract from the general awesomeness he experiences (and freely expresses) when having sex with me and making sure I get off.
What I'm getting at is that a specific aversion isn't a big deal. The important question is: does your partner feel incredibly fortunate to be with you and to be having sex with you (and vice versa)? If this is an LTR, the answer to all these questions should be yes _at any point_, not just in the beginning.
More...
Unfortunately, when someone makes you feel great most of the time and only awful once in a while, it's easy to get conditioned to the point where you are willing to feel awful most of the time in return for the faint hope of feeling great once in a while. That's why so many people end up staying in relationships that are obviously far inferior to vibrators.
This is a very difficult trap to avoid and you should give yourself a break for falling into it. The only advice I can offer is that you and your partner should each think the other is awesome from the very beginning. Not okay or fixer-upper material, but absolutely amazing from the get-go. If the relationship seems based on the expectation that you will change or that whatever is unsatisfactory about the relationship is something wrong with you, you are setting yourself for a cycle of psychological abuse. Yes, I know that people do change in or even because of relationships, but that can't be the basis of the relationship.
Another word about that list, specifically, #4: my husband is an enthusiastic but infrequent pussy-eater and he only does it on his own initiative when I'm straight out of the shower. From this I infer that he doesn't really like the taste, but he has too much common sense to make an issue out of it, and it doesn't detract from the general awesomeness he experiences (and freely expresses) when having sex with me and making sure I get off.
What I'm getting at is that a specific aversion isn't a big deal. The important question is: does your partner feel incredibly fortunate to be with you and to be having sex with you (and vice versa)? If this is an LTR, the answer to all these questions should be yes _at any point_, not just in the beginning.
27
I definitely had to learn the hard way, but the best indicator I've found to distinguish between an asshole and someone worth your time is the feeling of being able to freely discuss any problems without fear of being shamed or disrespected or dismissed.
28
Actually, FTN, I see why his being Chinese is an issue. My Saudi ex refused to go down on me because "it was dirty down there." It's a cultural issue, one that men from domineeringly patriarchal countries don't think even needs to be addressed, because they think that "normal" is girls doing whatever a man wants with no regard for what the girl wants.
Well, I dumped that asshole. Either he does what you want because he wants to satisfy you the way you do him, or he 's not worth it.
Well, I dumped that asshole. Either he does what you want because he wants to satisfy you the way you do him, or he 's not worth it.
29
How did we move on? I think that whole "my last girlfriend NEVER.... " is a classic dick move, and one that they'll repeat every time they want to get out of doing whatever (dishes, paying for a meal once in a while, going down on you). Eventually you get to the point where you're so damned frustrated that you need to get out. You could wait for something "better" to come along, but if you're unhappy, you might find your "better" is actually a lot worse. The only thing to do is put on your big girl panties and walk the fuck away.
31
I'm pleased to see that all the unregistered comments so far have been nice and helpful as well.
@23 Just copy the link from the address bar of interest (select, ctrl C) and paste it into this square (ctrl V). It will show up as an active link because you're a registered user on SLOG.
@23 Just copy the link from the address bar of interest (select, ctrl C) and paste it into this square (ctrl V). It will show up as an active link because you're a registered user on SLOG.
32
If they don't lick it, don't let them dick it!
I remember friends in school saying that they would not dick it if they would not lick it. I always remembered that. It stuck with me. Now, I rarely have sex without performing oral first. I try to make sure the girl has at least one orgasm before we have intercourse. I also enjoy seeing how wound up I can get a girl before intercourse. I enjoy that, and my GF loves it! Fluid icky? No, fluid great!
I remember friends in school saying that they would not dick it if they would not lick it. I always remembered that. It stuck with me. Now, I rarely have sex without performing oral first. I try to make sure the girl has at least one orgasm before we have intercourse. I also enjoy seeing how wound up I can get a girl before intercourse. I enjoy that, and my GF loves it! Fluid icky? No, fluid great!
33
This is an easy one. If you are a woman who has, like most women, been socialized not to express dissatisfaction with a man's sexual performance, and not to ask for what you want in bed - but you work up the guts to communicate your sexual desires anyway, and the guy doesn't LEAP to try to please you and thereby keep you in his bed:
Dump That Motherfucking Motherfucker Already.
Dump That Motherfucking Motherfucker Already.
34
@10 & 11 gamebird,
WOW, thanks for sharing both of those comments. I love your conclusion of what the two options are.
What were the compilations you read about what abusive men are thinking? I recently read, "Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft, which included some similar information. It was very insightful and helped me to understand abusive relationships better.
WOW, thanks for sharing both of those comments. I love your conclusion of what the two options are.
What were the compilations you read about what abusive men are thinking? I recently read, "Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft, which included some similar information. It was very insightful and helped me to understand abusive relationships better.
36
I stayed with a man for three years who wouldn't fuck me. Scratch that: he'd condescend to fuck me maybe twice a month, but because we were long distance for a long time, that's meant I'd have sex maaaaaybe once every three or four months. There was always an excuse: he was tired, he was stressed, he'd just masturbated, he hadn't masturbated enough. He'd masturbate right next to me in bed (something I wouldn't normally mind, if I hadn't been starving) even when he knew the fact that he wouldn't have sex with me very often was a huge source of pain for me. I was constantly being rejected. When the sex did happen, it was quick P-in-V, and on the rare occasions he could be persuaded to hold his nose and finger me A LITTLE after he'd already come (forget him every eating me out), he did it in a way that hurt, even though I asked him to be more gentle every single time. Often, once he'd come, he'd lift me bodily off of him, dump me unceremoniously onto the bed, roll over and fall asleep. I was patient. I was understanding. I didn't push. I cried a lot. All the while, this asshole kept telling me he loved me.
I've thought a lot about why I stayed with him so long. I had low self esteem, but that's not the main part of it. Mostly, I kept telling myself that unsatisfying sex wasn't a good enough reason to break up with someone. That it would be such a shame if "this relationship had to end because of the sex."
My advice? Sex just one other way a couple interacts with each other. Treat it accordingly. If this guy had been as mean to me in any other way as he was to me sexually, the relationship would have ended a lot sooner. If you haven't got kids, you owe it to yourself not to make exceptions for how someone treats you in the sack opposed to how someone treats you out of it.
And btw, I'm in a relationship now that's so hot, with a man so GGG, it's healing me. Thank god for him, and thank god I broke up with the other guy.
More...
I've thought a lot about why I stayed with him so long. I had low self esteem, but that's not the main part of it. Mostly, I kept telling myself that unsatisfying sex wasn't a good enough reason to break up with someone. That it would be such a shame if "this relationship had to end because of the sex."
My advice? Sex just one other way a couple interacts with each other. Treat it accordingly. If this guy had been as mean to me in any other way as he was to me sexually, the relationship would have ended a lot sooner. If you haven't got kids, you owe it to yourself not to make exceptions for how someone treats you in the sack opposed to how someone treats you out of it.
And btw, I'm in a relationship now that's so hot, with a man so GGG, it's healing me. Thank god for him, and thank god I broke up with the other guy.
37
Also, I didn't mean that people with kids should just roll over and take it. But, you know, extra considerations etc. etc. I probably shouldn't have brought kids up in the first place as I don't have them. Sorry about that.
38
You don't spot the difference you get lucky. You try and fail enough times that eventually one of them wears you down or decides not to run away. The good ones always run away.
39
Short answer: Don't waste your time on a partner who shames you, blames you, flames you, or tries to tame you. (add more rhymes if you like: games, defames, etc.)
.
I wasted far too much time on someone very intellectually compatible with me, but never wanted to cuddle, have sex, do anything that I wanted to do.
One day I just looked in the mirror and said "Enough"....I took the next flight out of Boston to California and arranged new living quarters there. Then I came back for one week and packed up everything I owned and left. He was a hot mess, crying, promising...but something had just broken inside of me. I was out of love and saw him very clearly (and perhaps coldly) for what he was: someone who backed away from life.
Within a year I met the man I married to today and I love everything about him. He's there for me in every way. Smart funny sexy: the whole package. We've been married 11 years now.
.
I wasted far too much time on someone very intellectually compatible with me, but never wanted to cuddle, have sex, do anything that I wanted to do.
One day I just looked in the mirror and said "Enough"....I took the next flight out of Boston to California and arranged new living quarters there. Then I came back for one week and packed up everything I owned and left. He was a hot mess, crying, promising...but something had just broken inside of me. I was out of love and saw him very clearly (and perhaps coldly) for what he was: someone who backed away from life.
Within a year I met the man I married to today and I love everything about him. He's there for me in every way. Smart funny sexy: the whole package. We've been married 11 years now.
40
For relationships : check the red flags lists :
http://drirene.com/redflag.htm
http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/m…
For sex :
- treat a sex date as you would a dinner date. If on your first date in a restaurant, the guy starts eating in your plate without even asking, spits in it, wipes his face on your clothes or ridicules your choices of food, would you ever go to dinner with him again ? No. Dump.
- don't ever consider yourself engaged to more because you've consented to sex once.
- if he won't lick it, don't let him dick it (#32 rules !)
- if he won't lick you, don't ever lick him.
For virgins :
- read Savage Love archives to educate yourself on sex.
- masturbate.
- if actual sex is nowhere near as good as masturbation, then it's very lousy sex, dump. There are plenty more men out there, knowing how to give you pleasure or willing to learn. Give one of them a chance.
Of course, if the guy is so overcome with emotion that he can't get it up and is gracious about it, that's no dumping grounds... But if you feel disrespected in any way, dump. If you wouldn't ever do to him what he's doing to you, dump.
As for the bad lover being Chinese - many French assholes I've met have had the exact same behavior.
http://drirene.com/redflag.htm
http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/m…
For sex :
- treat a sex date as you would a dinner date. If on your first date in a restaurant, the guy starts eating in your plate without even asking, spits in it, wipes his face on your clothes or ridicules your choices of food, would you ever go to dinner with him again ? No. Dump.
- don't ever consider yourself engaged to more because you've consented to sex once.
- if he won't lick it, don't let him dick it (#32 rules !)
- if he won't lick you, don't ever lick him.
For virgins :
- read Savage Love archives to educate yourself on sex.
- masturbate.
- if actual sex is nowhere near as good as masturbation, then it's very lousy sex, dump. There are plenty more men out there, knowing how to give you pleasure or willing to learn. Give one of them a chance.
Of course, if the guy is so overcome with emotion that he can't get it up and is gracious about it, that's no dumping grounds... But if you feel disrespected in any way, dump. If you wouldn't ever do to him what he's doing to you, dump.
As for the bad lover being Chinese - many French assholes I've met have had the exact same behavior.
41
This only works when you're a little way into the relationship already, but it's pretty easy: figure out something that he does that bothers you. Something small. Maybe he uses the word "rape" in stupid contexts (Dude, that video game boss just raped my ass), maybe he leaves his wet towel on your bed, maybe he doesn't do enough foreplay. Whatever it is, bring it up tactfully. How does he respond? If he's mortified and swears he'll do better, that's a good thing. If he's a little defensive but continued discussion reveals that he just doesn't want to admit how embarrassed about passed transgression he is, he has a bit of a manageable asshole streak (it might turn out that you're into that). If he shuts you down, dump him. A guy who's an asshole who refuses to reconsider his own behavior when asked to do something small will continue to be an asshole on larger issues.
42
For two years I dated a guy who sounds a lot like the man in the first letter. We rarely had sex, and it could only ever be when he wanted it. Whenever I showed any interest, he told me I had an abnormally high sex drive and it made him feel emasculated. I didn't know it at the time, but our sex life sucked. (But since usually any sex is better than no sex, I thought what sex we did have was really good. At the time.)
In the end, motherfucker dumped me. Broke my heart. But right about that time, I started seriously listening to Dan's podcast. I listened to every single episode, and read every column I could find.
And I started working on myself--travelled to Europe on my own, changed my life to my own liking, learned to put myself first. And I started dating online, mostly casually, not imagining I'd ever fall in love with someone like I'd loved that guy. And then I met my match! He's a fellow Dan Savage fan, we're both bi, we're both GGG, we're perfectly matched in a lot of ways and compassionate and empathetic enough to understand one another's differences.
I'd say learn that you can't love someone else well until you learn to love yourself well--and hold out to find a partner who knows that too. And then, broaden your horizons. Don't be afraid to date, a lot, and sleep around a lot too (safely). Don't see every person as a potential LTR, see them as a human being who you can enjoy for the next few hours, and be in that moment with your self and with them. And keep meeting new people, and learning, and growing, and before you know it, you'll stumble right onto a good one.
In the end, motherfucker dumped me. Broke my heart. But right about that time, I started seriously listening to Dan's podcast. I listened to every single episode, and read every column I could find.
And I started working on myself--travelled to Europe on my own, changed my life to my own liking, learned to put myself first. And I started dating online, mostly casually, not imagining I'd ever fall in love with someone like I'd loved that guy. And then I met my match! He's a fellow Dan Savage fan, we're both bi, we're both GGG, we're perfectly matched in a lot of ways and compassionate and empathetic enough to understand one another's differences.
I'd say learn that you can't love someone else well until you learn to love yourself well--and hold out to find a partner who knows that too. And then, broaden your horizons. Don't be afraid to date, a lot, and sleep around a lot too (safely). Don't see every person as a potential LTR, see them as a human being who you can enjoy for the next few hours, and be in that moment with your self and with them. And keep meeting new people, and learning, and growing, and before you know it, you'll stumble right onto a good one.
43
I finally came to the realization that reason i felt butterflies in my stomach every time i saw him wasn't because i liked/loved him so much, it was because at any second everything could turn awful.
44
Timely conversation - here are two long comment threads about "green flags" that hint a potential partner really has something going for them:
http://captainawkward.com/2012/07/16/300…
http://pervocracy.blogspot.de/2012/07/gr…
I would add that all the discernment in the world is not going to stop you from getting into a terrible relationship, unless that discernment is paired with the ability to put YOUR pleasure, well-being, safety etc. first. So often, young women are taught that a relationship is "work" and that men need to be tamed and trained. That everyone deserves "a chance". And of course, that being in a relationship is some kind of success in and of itself, proof that we have a future and something going for us in life. The end result of all that selflessness is that we tend to forget we have a self at all.
If you don't feel happy and healthy and safe with someone, if that person denigrates your needs or is disgusted by the fact that your vagina gets wet (!!!) then that person has USED UP their chance. You don't need to spend your life being miserable for the sake of Staying In And Working At A Relationship.
Both of the LW's will feel so much better once they are single. And it will be a great chance to learn how to cherish themselves, so that next time some idiot comes along with a horrible shaming attitude, they will be better equipped to say "No, I was happier before you came along"
http://captainawkward.com/2012/07/16/300…
http://pervocracy.blogspot.de/2012/07/gr…
I would add that all the discernment in the world is not going to stop you from getting into a terrible relationship, unless that discernment is paired with the ability to put YOUR pleasure, well-being, safety etc. first. So often, young women are taught that a relationship is "work" and that men need to be tamed and trained. That everyone deserves "a chance". And of course, that being in a relationship is some kind of success in and of itself, proof that we have a future and something going for us in life. The end result of all that selflessness is that we tend to forget we have a self at all.
If you don't feel happy and healthy and safe with someone, if that person denigrates your needs or is disgusted by the fact that your vagina gets wet (!!!) then that person has USED UP their chance. You don't need to spend your life being miserable for the sake of Staying In And Working At A Relationship.
Both of the LW's will feel so much better once they are single. And it will be a great chance to learn how to cherish themselves, so that next time some idiot comes along with a horrible shaming attitude, they will be better equipped to say "No, I was happier before you came along"
45
Also, this is comment 43, for those who don't read the unregistered comments:
Dropping truth bombs there, that'sallshewrote.
I finally came to the realization that reason i felt butterflies in my stomach every time i saw him wasn't because i liked/loved him so much, it was because at any second everything could turn awful.
Dropping truth bombs there, that'sallshewrote.
46
@44 Very clear exposé of what traps young women into bad relationships.
Outdated cultural expectations : we work now, girls. We vote. We "deserve a chance" as much as any male does. Being selfless in a relationship is only in order if the partner is selfless too. A relationship is not a person, it has a lot less worth than your feelings have.
Outdated cultural expectations : we work now, girls. We vote. We "deserve a chance" as much as any male does. Being selfless in a relationship is only in order if the partner is selfless too. A relationship is not a person, it has a lot less worth than your feelings have.
47
There is a VERY easy way to detect these assholes, and it's something that you can use early on while dating. Watch carefully how a man treats waitresses. If a man is a good tipper, respectful towards waitresses, and not too demanding, he will be giving in bed. If he's a lousy tipper, disrespectful about waitresses behind their backs and to their faces, and a cranky demanding customer, he will be selfish in bed.
48
Also, with regard to Chinese guys, that isn't the case with Chinese sexual taoists. It's a little nutty, but they believe that the man should rarely have orgasms (like once a month) and that women should have as many orgasms as possible. It can get a little weird, almost like they are orgasm vampires, but in a good way. What I'm saying is done write off all Chinese guys just because of one asshole.
49
I've had fairly good experiences in my sexual relationships, and now am engaged to my first exclusive partner.
But I think I had good experiences because I only chose partners who respected me and whom I respected. They also were respectful of others. That's the key. Pay attention to how the man treats waiters. Listen carefully when he talks about his mother, sisters, grandma. The way he treats other women will affect how he treats you (clearly, he's not having sex with his female relatives, but the type of guy who thinks its your job to satisfy him whenever and however he wants without reciprocation will treat women badly in other areas of life).
You need a guy who listens to you. If you say, "Hey, your refusal to have sex with me hurts my feelings," and he continues to behave the same way without making an effort, dump the asshole.
You need a guy who respects your boundaries. If you're a virgin and you only give in because he keeps reacting badly, DUMP HIM. There's a difference between a guy who cares about you, wants to be with you and lets you know he wants to have sex with you but respects your need to wait, and a douchebag who pressures you.
Don't stay with a guy who doesn't care about your pleasure. EVER. And if he won't give you oral, don't give HIM oral. A guy who doesn't care about your sexual pleasure doesn't care about how you feel about other things either. Your relationships should be based on mutual respect. So for the woman in the second letter, DUMP HIM, DUMP HIM, DUMP HIM. Seriously. I don't know you or what type of person you are, but you deserve better. Don't sleep with another man until you KNOW he is someone who respects you and wants you to feel satisfied as well.
But I think I had good experiences because I only chose partners who respected me and whom I respected. They also were respectful of others. That's the key. Pay attention to how the man treats waiters. Listen carefully when he talks about his mother, sisters, grandma. The way he treats other women will affect how he treats you (clearly, he's not having sex with his female relatives, but the type of guy who thinks its your job to satisfy him whenever and however he wants without reciprocation will treat women badly in other areas of life).
You need a guy who listens to you. If you say, "Hey, your refusal to have sex with me hurts my feelings," and he continues to behave the same way without making an effort, dump the asshole.
You need a guy who respects your boundaries. If you're a virgin and you only give in because he keeps reacting badly, DUMP HIM. There's a difference between a guy who cares about you, wants to be with you and lets you know he wants to have sex with you but respects your need to wait, and a douchebag who pressures you.
Don't stay with a guy who doesn't care about your pleasure. EVER. And if he won't give you oral, don't give HIM oral. A guy who doesn't care about your sexual pleasure doesn't care about how you feel about other things either. Your relationships should be based on mutual respect. So for the woman in the second letter, DUMP HIM, DUMP HIM, DUMP HIM. Seriously. I don't know you or what type of person you are, but you deserve better. Don't sleep with another man until you KNOW he is someone who respects you and wants you to feel satisfied as well.
50
Any guy who tries to shame you for your sexuality is someone you're better off without. A good guy might not be in the mood, but he won't blame you for being in it, and he'll probably be willing to cuddle while you masturbate.
Trying to make you the bad guy because he's unwilling to do to you things he demand you do to him is another bad sign.
But really, the big rule is that someone who is good for you will make you feel happy, fulfilled, worthy, and will make you want to constantly improve yourself and be the best person you could ever be. As the relationship advances, you'll love yourself more and more.
Someone who is bad for you will make you feel crappy, unworthy, and scared to leave because who else would want to be with such a loser? And as the relationship advances, you'll like yourself less and less.
Trying to make you the bad guy because he's unwilling to do to you things he demand you do to him is another bad sign.
But really, the big rule is that someone who is good for you will make you feel happy, fulfilled, worthy, and will make you want to constantly improve yourself and be the best person you could ever be. As the relationship advances, you'll love yourself more and more.
Someone who is bad for you will make you feel crappy, unworthy, and scared to leave because who else would want to be with such a loser? And as the relationship advances, you'll like yourself less and less.
51
The best way to tell the douchebags from the good guys, I've found, is to find one that you can trust 100%. They make you feel happy and wonderful and loved and beautiful and desired and respected EVERY FREAKING DAY. You don't live in constant fear that they're going to hurt you. You can't predict this in an instant- it takes a while to learn how a guy is really going to treat you over time.
If his actions make you upset- and he knows this- and he continues to behave the same way over the course of weeks or months (despite "promises to change" or "it wasn't my intention to make you upset" sentiments) DTMFA.
It's hard when you care about someone, and you want to believe the best about him. But the sad truth is, when someone hurts you- over and over, regardless of what they SAY their intentions are- they're not going to change. They're going to continue to be an inconsiderate bastard. Sometimes it takes a few months to really notice the pattern (because a lot of the times these guys are great in so many other ways).
But now I've got a guy I can trust 100%. I don't have to WORRY anymore that he's going to hurt me. Sure he might make a mistake once in a while, and my feelings might get hurt, but he DOESN'T do that same thing AGAIN. Because it's really NOT that hard to be considerate and avoid hurting people- *only douchebags will tell you that sparing your feelings is too hard or impossible*
If his actions make you upset- and he knows this- and he continues to behave the same way over the course of weeks or months (despite "promises to change" or "it wasn't my intention to make you upset" sentiments) DTMFA.
It's hard when you care about someone, and you want to believe the best about him. But the sad truth is, when someone hurts you- over and over, regardless of what they SAY their intentions are- they're not going to change. They're going to continue to be an inconsiderate bastard. Sometimes it takes a few months to really notice the pattern (because a lot of the times these guys are great in so many other ways).
But now I've got a guy I can trust 100%. I don't have to WORRY anymore that he's going to hurt me. Sure he might make a mistake once in a while, and my feelings might get hurt, but he DOESN'T do that same thing AGAIN. Because it's really NOT that hard to be considerate and avoid hurting people- *only douchebags will tell you that sparing your feelings is too hard or impossible*
52
@47 and 49 - My ex was wonderful to service people. He tipped big, was usually very considerate, and loved to chat them up about their life, current events, etc. and was very respectful about their opinions on things. I couldn't have similar conversations with him because any disagreement was cause for argument and reprisal.
I've heard a lot of people say 'see how he treats others' as the key, but it's not. My ex had long term (male) friends, as well as short term ones. He had LOTS of friends, some of them quite close. Most of them shared his misogynistic opinions. It didn't occur to me at the time that all of them were single, because most of the people I knew at that point in my life were single (and once I got to know his friends, I understood why they were single).
My ex treated his friends fairly well most of the time. People are VERY capable of treating different people in their lives in different ways. That's the problem with trying to identify an asshole. While some are stupid and clumsy enough that they reveal themselves easily, others will boil you like a frog, slowing increasing the heat.
I've heard a lot of people say 'see how he treats others' as the key, but it's not. My ex had long term (male) friends, as well as short term ones. He had LOTS of friends, some of them quite close. Most of them shared his misogynistic opinions. It didn't occur to me at the time that all of them were single, because most of the people I knew at that point in my life were single (and once I got to know his friends, I understood why they were single).
My ex treated his friends fairly well most of the time. People are VERY capable of treating different people in their lives in different ways. That's the problem with trying to identify an asshole. While some are stupid and clumsy enough that they reveal themselves easily, others will boil you like a frog, slowing increasing the heat.
53
I have a rule that I don't read comments online that are open to the public. This has improved my life immeasurably, but every once and a while my eyes stray and I get sucked in for a few minutes. I am almost always horrified. This is one of those rare times where my faith in humanity has been restored; you people are being thoughtful and supportive. Thanks so much, it totally made my day.
54
I was with my first serious boyfriend for a year and a half at the beginning of college, and even though he was really controlling (he basically wanted me to sit around at home waiting for him to get back from whatever he was doing but thought nothing of canceling our plans at a moment's notice when something "better" came up) and was somehow under the impression that he could trade boxes of chocolates for blowjobs, I was naive and tried to stick it out with him even though I was miserable.
When I reflected on our relationship, I realised that I'd stayed in something that made me miserable most of the time in the hopes that it would go back to being the way it was in the first few months when everything had been amazing. It's really easy to get stuck in something that makes you sad 95% of the time and happy 5% of the time because those happy moments seem to make it worth it (and in contrast to all the misery, they seem even better).
So my new rule is this: on average, someone should spend more time making you happy than making you sad. It doesn't matter if those few happy moments are fucking euphoric: the ratio of happy to sad matters just as much (if not more than) the intensity. I've found that thinking about it like that has made it a lot easier to get out of bad situations.
When I reflected on our relationship, I realised that I'd stayed in something that made me miserable most of the time in the hopes that it would go back to being the way it was in the first few months when everything had been amazing. It's really easy to get stuck in something that makes you sad 95% of the time and happy 5% of the time because those happy moments seem to make it worth it (and in contrast to all the misery, they seem even better).
So my new rule is this: on average, someone should spend more time making you happy than making you sad. It doesn't matter if those few happy moments are fucking euphoric: the ratio of happy to sad matters just as much (if not more than) the intensity. I've found that thinking about it like that has made it a lot easier to get out of bad situations.
55
As a penis-having-person: good lord!
Every once in a while I feel the need to apologize for my entire gender. E.g. when the guy I'm talking to at the bar smacks the waitress's ass. This is one of those times. Guys really can be assholes.
I would like to advocate to all women everywhere that the less of this kind of crap they put up with, the sooner the asshole population will diminish. I would love to live in a world where the entitled, selfish, misogynists don't ever get laid.
I suppose that's the relationship equivalent of don't feed the trolls.
Every once in a while I feel the need to apologize for my entire gender. E.g. when the guy I'm talking to at the bar smacks the waitress's ass. This is one of those times. Guys really can be assholes.
I would like to advocate to all women everywhere that the less of this kind of crap they put up with, the sooner the asshole population will diminish. I would love to live in a world where the entitled, selfish, misogynists don't ever get laid.
I suppose that's the relationship equivalent of don't feed the trolls.
56
A few additions:
1. Become a complete and full person yourself, with your own interest, hobbies and friends. Be happy with yourself and your life before trying to pair up with someone else. Then look for someone who adds to what you already have going.
2. There is nothing a man can do for you that can't be accomplished by self-worth, a vibrator, and a pack of batteries
3. He gets off on getting me off.
4. Set your standards for a first date low, but for second and subsequent dates high
5. Don't jump into bed right away. Start with sexual contact before sexual intercourse. If he's really worth your time, he's willing to develop a relationship outside of sex first.
6. Ask him to set up some simple electronics. Every douchebag I've dumped has first demonstrated unwillingness/inability to set up basic electronics (Like, plugging in AV cables). I think it's a symptom of the "I want a mommy to do everything for me" syndrome.
Most importantly: TRUST YOUR GUT! Don't every talk yourself into staying/putting up with unacceptable behavior. If you every find yourself thinking "It's not that bad...." "Maybe I'm overreacting...." "Am I being reasonable....." or anything similar, it's time to DTMFA.
1. Become a complete and full person yourself, with your own interest, hobbies and friends. Be happy with yourself and your life before trying to pair up with someone else. Then look for someone who adds to what you already have going.
2. There is nothing a man can do for you that can't be accomplished by self-worth, a vibrator, and a pack of batteries
3. He gets off on getting me off.
4. Set your standards for a first date low, but for second and subsequent dates high
5. Don't jump into bed right away. Start with sexual contact before sexual intercourse. If he's really worth your time, he's willing to develop a relationship outside of sex first.
6. Ask him to set up some simple electronics. Every douchebag I've dumped has first demonstrated unwillingness/inability to set up basic electronics (Like, plugging in AV cables). I think it's a symptom of the "I want a mommy to do everything for me" syndrome.
Most importantly: TRUST YOUR GUT! Don't every talk yourself into staying/putting up with unacceptable behavior. If you every find yourself thinking "It's not that bad...." "Maybe I'm overreacting...." "Am I being reasonable....." or anything similar, it's time to DTMFA.
57
Dang, I was expecting some Tiger-mom drama or a chopstick fetish when the "Chinese" part was mentioned, or at least a small dick or buck-teeth thing. Very disappointed that it's just dickery that occurs in every race.
59
i realized that a guy who isn't very positive about me, doesn't like my personality, my looks, the way i am in bed, the way i behave around others, my driving etc will only bring out the worst in me. i stopped hanging out with friends, i didn't like to drive, i was unsure of myself in bed, i dressed like a homeless guy, i never brushed my hair, what was the point? i'd tried to better myself but he didn't care.
a guy who loves me, makes me a better person. i dress better, i shower more often, i eat better, i exercise, i'm more upbeat and optimistic, more energetic, and more adventurous in bed. people comment on what a happy person i am, when we're driving back from parties he recounts clever things i said or how other guys were checking me out, basically he lets me know other people like me too. he makes me feel like a worthwhile person because he notices and praises all the little things i do for myself, to make myself happier and healthier. he likes my drawings, he likes it when i sing, he admires my ass in tight pants, he likes my cooking, i just enjoy life more when my happiness makes someone else happy.
not to mention all the things he actually does for me and the important fact that he takes care of himself and doesn't expect me to do all the "chores".
a guy who loves me, makes me a better person. i dress better, i shower more often, i eat better, i exercise, i'm more upbeat and optimistic, more energetic, and more adventurous in bed. people comment on what a happy person i am, when we're driving back from parties he recounts clever things i said or how other guys were checking me out, basically he lets me know other people like me too. he makes me feel like a worthwhile person because he notices and praises all the little things i do for myself, to make myself happier and healthier. he likes my drawings, he likes it when i sing, he admires my ass in tight pants, he likes my cooking, i just enjoy life more when my happiness makes someone else happy.
not to mention all the things he actually does for me and the important fact that he takes care of himself and doesn't expect me to do all the "chores".
60
Would you be happy spending the next ten or twenty years with him the way he is now, without any changes to his overall behavior? If not, then walk away. Adults rarely change in positive ways.
That said, I'm a big fan of taking responsibility for one's own orgasms. If he's happy to touch/lick you but you have trouble orgasming, bring a vibrator to bed, make your own orgasm an ordinary part of sex. Over time, as you relax together, it'll be easier and easier for him to play an active role in your orgasm, whether that's fingering/fucking/licking you while you use the vibe, or using the vibe on you himself, or weaning you off the vibe so you can come from your touch and/or his touch/tongue... Don't worry that a vibe means you can't also have touch and intimacy. It's just a tool, like a bed, like lube, that helps make sex more fun for both people.
That said, I'm a big fan of taking responsibility for one's own orgasms. If he's happy to touch/lick you but you have trouble orgasming, bring a vibrator to bed, make your own orgasm an ordinary part of sex. Over time, as you relax together, it'll be easier and easier for him to play an active role in your orgasm, whether that's fingering/fucking/licking you while you use the vibe, or using the vibe on you himself, or weaning you off the vibe so you can come from your touch and/or his touch/tongue... Don't worry that a vibe means you can't also have touch and intimacy. It's just a tool, like a bed, like lube, that helps make sex more fun for both people.
61
SAH@26 "my husband is an enthusiastic but infrequent pussy-eater and he only does it on his own initiative when I'm straight out of the shower."
Have you considered having an adult conversation about this, where you tell him you would love more tongue action? Asking for what you want in bed does not make you a bad person, it makes you a great sex partner and might free him up to be more honest about what he would like. You could also just start showering more, but if you're in this for the long haul, it might make sense to find out what he's actually thinking, as opposed to operating on inferences and guesses.
Have you considered having an adult conversation about this, where you tell him you would love more tongue action? Asking for what you want in bed does not make you a bad person, it makes you a great sex partner and might free him up to be more honest about what he would like. You could also just start showering more, but if you're in this for the long haul, it might make sense to find out what he's actually thinking, as opposed to operating on inferences and guesses.
62
@56: I think 5 depends on your preferences. I jumped into bed with a lot of guys after only one date, and it was pretty easy to weed out the ones with potential by doing that. I think it depends if you'd rather sleep with someone once before dumping them or not. No one ever got to EXPECT sex from me, though.
63
I don't know exactly how I learned, but after I dumped my dishonest, manipulative, body-shaming first husband, I took a long sabbatical from dating, and then I had a strict zero-tolerance policy for any of those behaviors, even dumped a guy that I was cross-eyed-crazy about. It was probably harsher than it needed to be, but it served me well. I preferred to err on the side of caution, deciding I'd rather risk being alone than risk being with a manipulator.
When I started dating my now-husband, I remember thinking Oh! Now I get it! This is how it's supposed to be!
Honesty. Directness. Loving support. Once you try them you'll never go back.
When I started dating my now-husband, I remember thinking Oh! Now I get it! This is how it's supposed to be!
Honesty. Directness. Loving support. Once you try them you'll never go back.
64
In my experience, guys are not completely different people in the bedroom than they are out of it. If a guy is selfish and cold during sex, he's selfish and cold in other contexts, too.
I was in a similar boat to FTN once. I was in college, in my first real relationship, and lost my virginity to the guy. I did anything he asked because I liked him and wanted to please him. He never got me off ONCE and never really tried. (He would say on occasion what a shame it was that he couldn't make me come but that he didn't want to give me oral.) But (like, I suspect, FTN) I stuck around because I didn't know any better! I finally dumped him because he was so selfish out of bed, too--I was always the one doing his laundry, going to get us food, driving him places. I like doing things for people I care about, but he never returned the many favors. So after 5 months of serving him, I finally DTMFA 4.5 months after I should have.
Now I'm with a guy who's generous in bed and out of bed. There's a good, equal give-and-take. He gets me off, I get him off, he fixes my a/c, I make him dinner, and we both express our appreciation for each other. It's great, and I can't believe I settled for anything less.
So as for warning signs:
- guys who don't say thank you or show appreciation,
- guys who don't return favors, and
- guys who think their time is more valuable than yours
are NOT going to turn into attentive, generous lovers in bed. And vice versa. But sometimes you can't see that until you're out of it. And it's VERY difficult to see if it's your first relationship.
I was in a similar boat to FTN once. I was in college, in my first real relationship, and lost my virginity to the guy. I did anything he asked because I liked him and wanted to please him. He never got me off ONCE and never really tried. (He would say on occasion what a shame it was that he couldn't make me come but that he didn't want to give me oral.) But (like, I suspect, FTN) I stuck around because I didn't know any better! I finally dumped him because he was so selfish out of bed, too--I was always the one doing his laundry, going to get us food, driving him places. I like doing things for people I care about, but he never returned the many favors. So after 5 months of serving him, I finally DTMFA 4.5 months after I should have.
Now I'm with a guy who's generous in bed and out of bed. There's a good, equal give-and-take. He gets me off, I get him off, he fixes my a/c, I make him dinner, and we both express our appreciation for each other. It's great, and I can't believe I settled for anything less.
So as for warning signs:
- guys who don't say thank you or show appreciation,
- guys who don't return favors, and
- guys who think their time is more valuable than yours
are NOT going to turn into attentive, generous lovers in bed. And vice versa. But sometimes you can't see that until you're out of it. And it's VERY difficult to see if it's your first relationship.
65
said @53 "I have a rule that I don't read comments online that are open to the public. This has improved my life immeasurably, but every once and a while my eyes stray and I get sucked in for a few minutes. I am almost always horrified. This is one of those rare times where my faith in humanity has been restored; you people are being thoughtful and supportive. Thanks so much, it totally made my day."
I couldn't agree more.
I couldn't agree more.
66
If you have to ask a columnist, friend, or yourself, "is this behavior ok? am i being mistreated? do i have a right to be upset about this?" then you are probably not in a good relationship. If you find yourself brushing things aside because "you love him, he's such a good guy, or he doesn't mean it" then get out.
When you are in a good relationship, you will not need confirmation from anyone else.
When you are in a good relationship, you will not need confirmation from anyone else.
67
It took me a while to learn that not all men LIKE women. Want to fuck them, sure, and then afterwards shame them for being a dirty slut, absolutely. But actually value and respect a woman as a human being, with her own ideas and desires? Yeah, not so much. I've noticed these guys are incapable of having platonic friendships with women, so if a guy doesn't have any female friends (and no, sorry, ex-girlfriends and fuck buddies don't count), that's a big read flag that he's probably going to be an asshole AND a shitty lay.
The good ones want to lift you up, not tear you down. They'll call you out when you make one too many self-deprecating jokes, and remind you how spectacular they think you are. Because the good ones KNOW you're spectacular. This shithead FTN is dating isn't worth the time it took her to write that damn email. It's time to move on and find someone who will give the respect and attention that you and your vagina deserve!
The good ones want to lift you up, not tear you down. They'll call you out when you make one too many self-deprecating jokes, and remind you how spectacular they think you are. Because the good ones KNOW you're spectacular. This shithead FTN is dating isn't worth the time it took her to write that damn email. It's time to move on and find someone who will give the respect and attention that you and your vagina deserve!
68
I've been in two relationships (1 year + each) and then a string of fuck buddies. I've had the asexual asshole, the fabulous boyfriend/fuckbuddy, the selfish bastard, and then that one guy who sees you squeeze out a teensy tiny orgasm and goes, "That was it, right?" A coital exchange with a fabulous boyfriend or fuckbuddy sounds like this:
"Hey darling, I didn't quite get there...."
"Oh! I'm sorry!"
*shrieks of multiple orgasms*
Any guy who squirts in/on/around you should be more than happy to return the favor. Some guys don't know how female pleasure works, but that's not an excuse either. If he seems to think you're being outlandish when you start giving him instructions, don't fuck the motherfucker. (Or DFTMF?)
"Hey darling, I didn't quite get there...."
"Oh! I'm sorry!"
*shrieks of multiple orgasms*
Any guy who squirts in/on/around you should be more than happy to return the favor. Some guys don't know how female pleasure works, but that's not an excuse either. If he seems to think you're being outlandish when you start giving him instructions, don't fuck the motherfucker. (Or DFTMF?)
69
@38: Are you actually reading the commentary here? 'Cause it's proving you wrong. And if your reaction is, "All those women who are claiming to have found wonderful partners are really just deluding themselves" -- well, you are cordially invited to crawl back in the hole you've dug and stay there.
@40: A lot of stuff on the Heartless Bitches' red flag list is ok, but #65 pisses me off to no end. First of all, can we have a moratorium on this notion that comic books are "kid stuff"? Especially considering that some of the other commentary on the site is from female comic book fans? I even emailed the HBI folks about this. No response.
Second, and more important than Nerd Rage, I've found that lack of shame about enjoying "kid stuff" is, to use Pervocracy's term, a green flag. As far back as high school, I noticed that it was actually the less mature kids who worried about not being seen as "babyish". And if nothing else, the whole Stop Having Fun, You Guys attitude is a buzzkill.
Yeah, yeah, it's one error... but holy shit is that a glaring error.
@40: A lot of stuff on the Heartless Bitches' red flag list is ok, but #65 pisses me off to no end. First of all, can we have a moratorium on this notion that comic books are "kid stuff"? Especially considering that some of the other commentary on the site is from female comic book fans? I even emailed the HBI folks about this. No response.
Second, and more important than Nerd Rage, I've found that lack of shame about enjoying "kid stuff" is, to use Pervocracy's term, a green flag. As far back as high school, I noticed that it was actually the less mature kids who worried about not being seen as "babyish". And if nothing else, the whole Stop Having Fun, You Guys attitude is a buzzkill.
Yeah, yeah, it's one error... but holy shit is that a glaring error.
70
@69: Wow, I didn't even read the lists until now, and honestly, there are quite a few other things on there that are not really red flags. Seeing a prostitute at some point doesn't mean a guy's an asshole. There's nothing wrong with a guy playing with himself in bed with you, either. Also, as someone whose father was an recovering alcoholic who stayed sober for more years than my lifetime, the idea that addicts can never overcome their addictions and become healthy is extremely insulting.
And man, there's nothing wrong with a comic book collection! Nerds are the best!
And man, there's nothing wrong with a comic book collection! Nerds are the best!
71
@69 I don't see any reason to be down on @38 - I think her comment describes what has worked best for her, and also is complementary to the other comments on this thread.
I've bookmarked this comments section - lots of insight and positive inspiration here!
I've bookmarked this comments section - lots of insight and positive inspiration here!
72
To spot a dud, it is actually pretty simple. If on the first date he doesn't ask any questions about you, don't go on a second date. It is indicative of a complete lack of care for his partners happiness. You can throw yourself against a wall trying to get him to listen to you, but the problem is that he simply doesn't care about his partners needs. I've continued relationships like this, thinking they were shy, or just needed time... but the truth is the simple lack of questions is a HUGE red flag.
Secondly, do not ever begin a serious relationship with someone who, you feel, needs to change. They don't. Either accept their flaws, or move on.
Secondly, do not ever begin a serious relationship with someone who, you feel, needs to change. They don't. Either accept their flaws, or move on.
74
A lot of what it comes down to is whether he's a decent person outside of bed. People are usually fairly consistent. Most aren't loving and giving and kind to servers and puppies and little old ladies, but then turn into assholes once they lie down naked.
I went through many assholes in my ill-spent youth and nearly married two of them. An asshole is also an anal orifice outside of bed. I think this changed for me when I got to where I had enough self-confidence and ego not to take crap any more. And sadly, this comes more with age and experience; boy, would I love to go back in time and have a long, long talk with my teen and twenty-something year old self.
I went through many assholes in my ill-spent youth and nearly married two of them. An asshole is also an anal orifice outside of bed. I think this changed for me when I got to where I had enough self-confidence and ego not to take crap any more. And sadly, this comes more with age and experience; boy, would I love to go back in time and have a long, long talk with my teen and twenty-something year old self.
75
My second sexual partner was perhaps the purest example I can think of this sort of BS. He was a slut-shamer, put down my body, and refused to perform oral on me. The one time he did, he made such a big stink about it that to this day, I still feel a bit (irrationally I know) insecure receiving oral sex, and don't enjoy it very much. After all this emotional abuse, sex started becoming difficult -- my body just wasn't getting aroused. Which, of course, he blamed on me ("just relax!"). I dumped him and found a guy who was concerned about my pleasure.
My advice would be to find a guy who is confident (one who doesn't feel the need to put you down) and progressive/feminist. Also, do not allow guys to set double standards -- if he wants oral, oral should be on the table for you.
My advice would be to find a guy who is confident (one who doesn't feel the need to put you down) and progressive/feminist. Also, do not allow guys to set double standards -- if he wants oral, oral should be on the table for you.
76
@70: I must have either been skimming, or stopped reading before you did, 'cause you're right -- that wasn't the only glaring error on the HBI list.
77
The standard that has worked for me (and several of my happily married friends) is to find a partner who thinks they hit the jackpot in finding you. Even if it doesn't last--even if it's just temporary--you should be ecstatic to hop into bed (or, if it comes to it, marriage) with someone who's equally ecstatic to do it with you. And you will know they are by their eagerness to be with you and to meet your needs.
79
@62, You're right, EXPECTING sex is the real problem here. Most women I've met, including my younger self, get hung up when sex is involved, thus #5. For women who avoid that problem, more power to them, and have fun!
Also, I forgot, if he says he can't live without you, that's his problem.
If he says he'll kill himself if you leave, let him. (He's either hopelessly unstable and no longer inflicting misery on others or- much more likely- fine.)
If can't take care of himself without you (health issues, cleaning the house, basic hygiene, whatever) tell him the grow up already.
All of the above apply for opposite gender or other pronouns, too.
Also, I forgot, if he says he can't live without you, that's his problem.
If he says he'll kill himself if you leave, let him. (He's either hopelessly unstable and no longer inflicting misery on others or- much more likely- fine.)
If can't take care of himself without you (health issues, cleaning the house, basic hygiene, whatever) tell him the grow up already.
All of the above apply for opposite gender or other pronouns, too.
80
@67- "It took me a while to learn that not all men LIKE women. Want to fuck them, sure, and then afterwards shame them for being a dirty slut, absolutely. But actually value and respect a woman as a human being, with her own ideas and desires?"
There are people who treat other people like that, regardless of gender.
There are people who treat other people like that, regardless of gender.
81
Dating is about finding someone you are happy with. Don't be afraid to admit that you are not. People get invested in the success of a relationship before they've figured out if it should really succeed. I don't know if it is a gendered thing, but as a woman, I remember that when we were teenagers, my friends and I were much more obsessed with finding guys that liked us than thinking critically about whether we liked those guys. It seems that the next step in this backwards way of thinking is to wonder how we can make a relationship last before thinking about whether it should last. That doesn't mean it's wrong to compromise on some things, but if your nature is to always compromise and never question the relationship, it's worth reminding yourself that it's ok to tell someone you're just not compatible. Doing that could save you from spending months agonizing about stuff that never would have happened if the first time you had heard about his sexual preferences, you had said "that doesn't sound like what I want, but good luck finding it." That's not to chastise. It's just to try and counter the social pressure we women impose on ourselves to be loved and to make our relationships a "success," no matter the cost.
82
@ ShifterCat and alguna_nada, who have pointed out the errors in the HBI list - I had forgotten about them, but yes, this is a contibutive list to be taken with agrain of salt, as everything on the HBI site ; I should have mentionned it. The Dr Irene list, though, I stand by.
I agree that the comic book collection is not a red flag. But it being a green flag ? Definitely no. My ex-husband had a comic book collection. Among the nerds, there are many assholes too. Computer science majors were over-representated as perpetrators in the family violence organisation I went to.
@Gamebird - I married someone like that too. It's good that you've divorced, I hope you're in a better place now, it was the right thing to do for your kids. From what I've been told, people like us who marry jerks like them have the common fault of being too nice to see them early for what they are and to dump them. But we do not make jerks out of decent people. Take care of yourself, enjoy your freedom, you've earned it.
@Ophian - I consider it now as my duty both to 1. educate fellow females about not letting themselves be put upon, and 2. share with them the awesome men I've met (well, man), so that the good news of there being decent sex partners can be spread widely around. I'm selfless like that :-)
I haven't had results so far. The females are "forever staying because of the children", and "not interested in sex anyway, it's so very boring". Pfff.
I agree that the comic book collection is not a red flag. But it being a green flag ? Definitely no. My ex-husband had a comic book collection. Among the nerds, there are many assholes too. Computer science majors were over-representated as perpetrators in the family violence organisation I went to.
@Gamebird - I married someone like that too. It's good that you've divorced, I hope you're in a better place now, it was the right thing to do for your kids. From what I've been told, people like us who marry jerks like them have the common fault of being too nice to see them early for what they are and to dump them. But we do not make jerks out of decent people. Take care of yourself, enjoy your freedom, you've earned it.
@Ophian - I consider it now as my duty both to 1. educate fellow females about not letting themselves be put upon, and 2. share with them the awesome men I've met (well, man), so that the good news of there being decent sex partners can be spread widely around. I'm selfless like that :-)
I haven't had results so far. The females are "forever staying because of the children", and "not interested in sex anyway, it's so very boring". Pfff.
83
@ ShifterCat and alguna_nada, who have pointed out the errors in the HBI list - I had forgotten about them, but yes, this is a contibutive list to be taken with agrain of salt, as everything on the HBI site ; I should have mentionned it. The Dr Irene list, though, I stand by.
I agree that the comic book collection is not a red flag. But it being a green flag ? Definitely no. My ex-husband had a comic book collection. Among the nerds, there are many assholes too. Computer science majors were over-representated as perpetrators in the family violence organisation I went to.
@Gamebird - I married someone like that too. It's good that you've divorced, I hope you're in a better place now, it was the right thing to do for your kids. From what I've been told, people like us who marry jerks like them have the common fault of being too nice to see them early for what they are and to dump them. But we do not make jerks out of decent people. Take care of yourself, enjoy your freedom, you've earned it.
@Ophian - I consider it now as my duty both to 1. educate fellow females about not letting themselves be put upon, and 2. share with them the awesome men I've met (well, man), so that the good news of there being decent sex partners can be spread widely around. I'm selfless like that :-)
I haven't had results so far. The females are "forever staying because of the children", and "not interested in sex anyway, it's so very boring". Pfff.
I agree that the comic book collection is not a red flag. But it being a green flag ? Definitely no. My ex-husband had a comic book collection. Among the nerds, there are many assholes too. Computer science majors were over-representated as perpetrators in the family violence organisation I went to.
@Gamebird - I married someone like that too. It's good that you've divorced, I hope you're in a better place now, it was the right thing to do for your kids. From what I've been told, people like us who marry jerks like them have the common fault of being too nice to see them early for what they are and to dump them. But we do not make jerks out of decent people. Take care of yourself, enjoy your freedom, you've earned it.
@Ophian - I consider it now as my duty both to 1. educate fellow females about not letting themselves be put upon, and 2. share with them the awesome men I've met (well, man), so that the good news of there being decent sex partners can be spread widely around. I'm selfless like that :-)
I haven't had results so far. The females are "forever staying because of the children", and "not interested in sex anyway, it's so very boring". Pfff.
84
I'm still working on this myself. I was in an emotionally abusive relationship with a man for two years who would only fuck me grudgingly. I'm a BBW, and I was the same size when it met him, but it took him two years to admit that he didn't find me attractive in the slightest, after I got very sick developing some disordered eating habits to try to please him. And at the end of it all, I was homeless.
So, I've now been single for just about two years, and I'm back on my feet and have a pretty successful life. I've spent a long time thinking about the beliefs and attitudes that I had that allowed him to treat me that way and kept me with him for so long, and I'm only just starting to figure out what I do and do not want in a partner (male or female) and what my dealbreakers are. I've been on a few dates in the last few months, but I'm mostly focusing on me and my education right now. If I meet someone awesome, then great, if not, I have a pretty fulfilling life to continue living.
These are my PERSONAL deal-breakers, some of which would not apply for other women:
1) Mean to animals/doesn't like animals
2) Allergic to cats (It's not their fault, but my cat's not going anywhere, and I tried dating a person with allergies, and it just made me guilty for their suffering.)
3) Slut-shamer/has archaic ideas about what women should be or how they should behave
4) Anti-choice
5) Almost any stripe of social conservative. Doughnuts to dollars we won't have the same values.
6) Refuses to even try to get me off. I'm hard to get off, so I have vibrators for that purpose and no problem using them, but a person who won't even TRY isn't for me.
7) Mean to servers/bad tipper
8) Tells me I'm "over-sensitive" if I having a complaint. I just may be, as we can all be over-sensitive sometimes, but if you just tell me that to dismiss me instead of discussing our mutual feelings about an issue, then you you can straight fuck off.
9) Really religious/superstitious, etc. (I'm an atheist. I can deal with some basic spiritual beliefs, but if someone is anti-science or really focused on their faith, then they're not for me.)
10) Won't share household work
11) Drinks too much/does drugs
12) Wants kids
That's pretty much the short list. There are other things that would bother me that I might deal with depending on the circumstances, but these are an absolute no-fly zone. I often wonder if I'm being too picky, but I'd rather wait forever to be with someone who's right for me then waste time with someone who's not.
I also wouldn't automatically rule out someone who had a poor relationship with their family or had few friends. I'm kind of the same. I'm estranged from most of my family because they're batshit crazy, so it's for my own mental health. Also, I'm an introvert, so I have few friends, but I love them dearly and we're very close.
More...
So, I've now been single for just about two years, and I'm back on my feet and have a pretty successful life. I've spent a long time thinking about the beliefs and attitudes that I had that allowed him to treat me that way and kept me with him for so long, and I'm only just starting to figure out what I do and do not want in a partner (male or female) and what my dealbreakers are. I've been on a few dates in the last few months, but I'm mostly focusing on me and my education right now. If I meet someone awesome, then great, if not, I have a pretty fulfilling life to continue living.
These are my PERSONAL deal-breakers, some of which would not apply for other women:
1) Mean to animals/doesn't like animals
2) Allergic to cats (It's not their fault, but my cat's not going anywhere, and I tried dating a person with allergies, and it just made me guilty for their suffering.)
3) Slut-shamer/has archaic ideas about what women should be or how they should behave
4) Anti-choice
5) Almost any stripe of social conservative. Doughnuts to dollars we won't have the same values.
6) Refuses to even try to get me off. I'm hard to get off, so I have vibrators for that purpose and no problem using them, but a person who won't even TRY isn't for me.
7) Mean to servers/bad tipper
8) Tells me I'm "over-sensitive" if I having a complaint. I just may be, as we can all be over-sensitive sometimes, but if you just tell me that to dismiss me instead of discussing our mutual feelings about an issue, then you you can straight fuck off.
9) Really religious/superstitious, etc. (I'm an atheist. I can deal with some basic spiritual beliefs, but if someone is anti-science or really focused on their faith, then they're not for me.)
10) Won't share household work
11) Drinks too much/does drugs
12) Wants kids
That's pretty much the short list. There are other things that would bother me that I might deal with depending on the circumstances, but these are an absolute no-fly zone. I often wonder if I'm being too picky, but I'd rather wait forever to be with someone who's right for me then waste time with someone who's not.
I also wouldn't automatically rule out someone who had a poor relationship with their family or had few friends. I'm kind of the same. I'm estranged from most of my family because they're batshit crazy, so it's for my own mental health. Also, I'm an introvert, so I have few friends, but I love them dearly and we're very close.
85
The most important thing, I think, is to make sure your source of happiness is yourself and not other people or what they think of you. Far too many shitty relationships are prolonged because of fear of being alone. If you enjoy your own company and know that you are happy being single, there is no reason to continue a relationship that is not adding to your already fulfulling life. (I'm not a straight woman, but I think this is a universal truth.)
86
You know what I've learned? If you have this little, nagging feeling that he doesn't respect you... it's usually because he doesn't respect you.
I honestly thought that feeling was just my own paranoia, and that I'd never meet a man who made me feel respected. And then I met my new boyfriend. Whatever happens between us in the future, I now know for a fact that I can be in relationships with men who respect me and take joy in the person I am.
I honestly thought that feeling was just my own paranoia, and that I'd never meet a man who made me feel respected. And then I met my new boyfriend. Whatever happens between us in the future, I now know for a fact that I can be in relationships with men who respect me and take joy in the person I am.
87
@ Clever_Innuendo You're not too picky. At all.
The only point that could exclude some decent people is 12) wants kids, but since you seem not to want any, it's perfectly reasonable to only agree to date people who are of the same resolve. Saves time for both parties.
Being too picky is saying "I won't date anybody whose second toe is bigger than her first", Ã la George in Seinfeld.
The only point that could exclude some decent people is 12) wants kids, but since you seem not to want any, it's perfectly reasonable to only agree to date people who are of the same resolve. Saves time for both parties.
Being too picky is saying "I won't date anybody whose second toe is bigger than her first", Ã la George in Seinfeld.
88
DTMFA #1 doesn't say HOW OFTEN he initiates or asks for sex. That is a rather important detail that he left out. If he is asking for it every godammed day...well, then his partner may have a point.
89
Women are so socialized to withhold judgment, give second (third, fourth) chances, put their own happiness last. Trust your gut and remember that, in developing romance, the main person to whom you owe something is yourself.
You can't help going on a date or two with cute assholes. It happens. They can be superficially charming. As you get to know your partners beyond that first or second date, ask yourself two questions:
1. Do you like this person? If you suddenly felt an overwhelming need to join a celibate religious order, would you set this person up with your best female friend? Would you let this guy babysit your nephew? Take care of your dog? Chat up your hard-of-hearing aunt at the family picnic? The way he treats others is the way he will eventually treat you.
2. Does this guy feel excited and lucky to have found you, and does he treat you accordingly? Or does he treat you like a project in need of reform? I once dated a boy who thought I'd be a better girlfriend if I learned Morse code. Seriously. No reason except that he thought it would be cool to tell other people that his girlfriend knew Morse code. I should have learned just enough to signal LATER, JERK.
My husband reaches out and holds my hand during airplane takeoff and landing, no matter what else he's doing and without me having to ask, because he knows takeoff and landing scare me. Right now he's doing the funky chicken dance to make me laugh, while also assembling a birthday box for my sister with the stuff he knows I want to send her. Do you like this music? he asks me. And now he's asking me if I want more breakfast. Keeper.
You can't help going on a date or two with cute assholes. It happens. They can be superficially charming. As you get to know your partners beyond that first or second date, ask yourself two questions:
1. Do you like this person? If you suddenly felt an overwhelming need to join a celibate religious order, would you set this person up with your best female friend? Would you let this guy babysit your nephew? Take care of your dog? Chat up your hard-of-hearing aunt at the family picnic? The way he treats others is the way he will eventually treat you.
2. Does this guy feel excited and lucky to have found you, and does he treat you accordingly? Or does he treat you like a project in need of reform? I once dated a boy who thought I'd be a better girlfriend if I learned Morse code. Seriously. No reason except that he thought it would be cool to tell other people that his girlfriend knew Morse code. I should have learned just enough to signal LATER, JERK.
My husband reaches out and holds my hand during airplane takeoff and landing, no matter what else he's doing and without me having to ask, because he knows takeoff and landing scare me. Right now he's doing the funky chicken dance to make me laugh, while also assembling a birthday box for my sister with the stuff he knows I want to send her. Do you like this music? he asks me. And now he's asking me if I want more breakfast. Keeper.
90
@sissoucat: Yeah, the first list is better than the second. Most of the contributions are good, but some of them seem to be submitted in the spirit of "Well, I dated an asshole who did this thing, therefore all men who do this thing must be assholes!"
I agree with you, though, that a comic book collection is not a green flag in and of itself. There are assholes with every hobby under the sun.
@88: No, they don't have a point. If they just didn't initiate because they had a lower libido, that would be understandable and fine (though I'd suggest dumping him anyway- it's not THAT hard to find a good guy with a similar libido to one's self). But the guy says he doesn't know why he always initially refuses, which is awful. If he doesn't know why he doesn't, maybe he should try doing it less often! The obnoxious remarks could just be explained by emotional cluelessness, however, so even that isn't quite a DTMFA. It's the fact that he suggested that she's a nymphomaniac/has sex addiction that's awful. You just don't say that to the one you love.
For women who have higher libidos than their non-asshole partners, I suggest the birth control pill. It took me from wanting sex 2+ times a day to being satisfied with 5+ times a week. Sure, it's still higher than most people, but it's low enough that I can skip a day and not go crazy :P
I agree with you, though, that a comic book collection is not a green flag in and of itself. There are assholes with every hobby under the sun.
@88: No, they don't have a point. If they just didn't initiate because they had a lower libido, that would be understandable and fine (though I'd suggest dumping him anyway- it's not THAT hard to find a good guy with a similar libido to one's self). But the guy says he doesn't know why he always initially refuses, which is awful. If he doesn't know why he doesn't, maybe he should try doing it less often! The obnoxious remarks could just be explained by emotional cluelessness, however, so even that isn't quite a DTMFA. It's the fact that he suggested that she's a nymphomaniac/has sex addiction that's awful. You just don't say that to the one you love.
For women who have higher libidos than their non-asshole partners, I suggest the birth control pill. It took me from wanting sex 2+ times a day to being satisfied with 5+ times a week. Sure, it's still higher than most people, but it's low enough that I can skip a day and not go crazy :P
92
@82, minor quibble: what I actually consider a green flag is a willingness to enjoy "kid stuff" without making rationalizations about how Thing X isn't really aimed at children. I don't consider a comic book collection to be "kid stuff" in the first place.
I agree that an enjoyment of geeky stuff is a neutral thing, not a flag of either colour. I gravitate toward geeks because I find it important to have a partner who shares a lot of my interests, but I'm not about to tell anyone to tolerate an asshole just because he or she happens to like Doctor Who or whatever.
I agree that an enjoyment of geeky stuff is a neutral thing, not a flag of either colour. I gravitate toward geeks because I find it important to have a partner who shares a lot of my interests, but I'm not about to tell anyone to tolerate an asshole just because he or she happens to like Doctor Who or whatever.
93
Do not ever waste your time on a guy who compares you negatively to other women. That is a shitty move no matter what. It's legit to say "Hey, I don't like this thing you do, could you please not do that?" or "Hey, would you please do this thing?" It's NEVER legit or acceptable to say "Why can't you be more like X? She does this, why can't you?"
I spent way too much time with guys who would rather have been with someone else. Even if you're in a poly relationship, the person you're with should want to be with you wholeheartedly. You should never be thought of as a consolation prize-- no one deserves that.
So the minute a guy compares you to another girl in order to guilt or shame you, DTMF.
I spent way too much time with guys who would rather have been with someone else. Even if you're in a poly relationship, the person you're with should want to be with you wholeheartedly. You should never be thought of as a consolation prize-- no one deserves that.
So the minute a guy compares you to another girl in order to guilt or shame you, DTMF.
94
@87 Sissoucat
Yeah, even though I am only 23, I really have decided that I don't want kids. They're just not for me. So I sure wouldn't want to waste anyone's time if they wanted to have kids and I don't. It's just not something that you can compromise on. You can't have half a baby. lol. I have my hands full enough rescuing kittens and pet rats.
I have been told that I'm too picky, and that if I really wanted to be in a relationship, I'd slack on those things. But I tried that before, and it doesn't work. If you'll take anyone just to avoid being single, then that leads to abuse and low self-esteem. I'm kind of enjoying being single, actually. And I don't care what anyone says, anyway. None of my criteria are about appearance or careers or anything superficial; being hot and having a good job is nice, but it may not last. It's about my values, and it's not right for me to expect someone to change their values or for me to change mine.
Yeah, even though I am only 23, I really have decided that I don't want kids. They're just not for me. So I sure wouldn't want to waste anyone's time if they wanted to have kids and I don't. It's just not something that you can compromise on. You can't have half a baby. lol. I have my hands full enough rescuing kittens and pet rats.
I have been told that I'm too picky, and that if I really wanted to be in a relationship, I'd slack on those things. But I tried that before, and it doesn't work. If you'll take anyone just to avoid being single, then that leads to abuse and low self-esteem. I'm kind of enjoying being single, actually. And I don't care what anyone says, anyway. None of my criteria are about appearance or careers or anything superficial; being hot and having a good job is nice, but it may not last. It's about my values, and it's not right for me to expect someone to change their values or for me to change mine.
96
I am now quite wary of public charmers. I was in an 18 month relationship with a guy who could just absolutely turn on the charm any time he was out in public but dear god was mean as a snake in private especially once he had some to drink.
So one of the things I tend to look for at this point is how much does he drink (too much? RUN) and what sort of drunk is he? (if he's a mean drunk, then by god RUN RUN RUN do not look back RUN).
There are other things to look for, of course, but this one is a nasty one because no one will fucking believe you that the guy is such an asshole cause he's the life and charm of a party.
Meh.
So one of the things I tend to look for at this point is how much does he drink (too much? RUN) and what sort of drunk is he? (if he's a mean drunk, then by god RUN RUN RUN do not look back RUN).
There are other things to look for, of course, but this one is a nasty one because no one will fucking believe you that the guy is such an asshole cause he's the life and charm of a party.
Meh.
97
@alguna_rubia Oh, sorry I didn't get your name right ! I got carried away by my memories of Spanish !
@ShifterCat I wouldn't vouch one way or the other about people enjoying "kid stuff" without shame.
An actual green flag is "he/she is still on good terms with an ex", according to the women violence organization I went to.
@94 Those people who told you you were too picky were disrespecting you.
And knowing yourself enough not to want kids at 23 is a good thing. Don't compromise on it, whatever the do-gooders tell you ; it's your choice, and you owe nothing to the human race. (from a mother of 3 who made the other choice, obviously).
@BEG Some people are just like you describe (charmer in public/snake in private) without ever drinking.
@ShifterCat I wouldn't vouch one way or the other about people enjoying "kid stuff" without shame.
An actual green flag is "he/she is still on good terms with an ex", according to the women violence organization I went to.
@94 Those people who told you you were too picky were disrespecting you.
And knowing yourself enough not to want kids at 23 is a good thing. Don't compromise on it, whatever the do-gooders tell you ; it's your choice, and you owe nothing to the human race. (from a mother of 3 who made the other choice, obviously).
@BEG Some people are just like you describe (charmer in public/snake in private) without ever drinking.
98
@9 drivel:
More...
1) nice boys who wouldn't fuck me. who would give me annoyingly patronizing spiels about how they respected me, therefore they'd never do that to me. or, on one memorable occasion, a christian boy who refused to see me anymore after we made out and rolled around in his bed because "he doesn't do that kind of thing."I've actually got some sympathy for the "nice boys" on this one, drivel. I know because I was one, and I grew up in a Catholic environment in the 1970s. [Not a happy time: the metaculture is revelling in the sexual revolution, and we were stuck in Catholic sexual repression.] If we accepted the religious messages then we fell into that trap. Worse, though, was that when we actually managed to listen to our natural sexuality rather than the unnatural restraint thereof we would often catch shit from the girl in question: she'd say yes in the moment, as it were, but afterwards there'd often be storms of recrimination and guilt and second thoughts. Boys were expected, paradoxically, to both be the one making things happen and also to be the one who would make things stop when the girl's natural desires overrode her gatekeeper programming. The "annoyingly patronizing spiels about how they respected me, therefore they'd never do that to me" were often a necessary diplomatic oil to the relationship, because failure to utter those conventionalities were a social signal for that context and era that we only saw you as disposal fucktoys, something which would end the high school relationship instantly. Those spiels were, in essence, a warranty to the relationship: "if at some point you get so turned on that you no longer want to say no I will be the one who holds back and ensures that you stay a virgin, something that you have told me a million times is important to you".
99
@9 drivel:
1) nice boys who wouldn't fuck me. who would give me annoyingly patronizing spiels about how they respected me, therefore they'd never do that to me. or, on one memorable occasion, a christian boy who refused to see me anymore after we made out and rolled around in his bed because "he doesn't do that kind of thing."I've actually got some sympathy for the "nice boys" on this one, drivel. I know because I was one, and I grew up in a Catholic environment in the 1970s. When the boy and girl actually managed to listen together to our natural sexuality rather than the unnatural restraint thereof we the boys would often later catch shit from the girls in question: she'd say yes in the Moment, as it were, but afterwards there'd often be storms of recrimination and guilt and second thoughts. Boys were expected, paradoxically, to both be the one making things happen and also to be the one who would make things stop when the girl's natural desires overrode her gatekeeper programming. The "annoyingly patronizing spiels about how they respected me, therefore they'd never do that to me" were often necessary and requisite diplomatic conventionalities: failure to utter them were a social signal for that context/era that we only saw you as disposal fucktoys, something which would end the high school relationship instantly. Those spiels were, in essence, a requisite warranty to the relationship: "if at some point you get so turned on that you no longer want to say no I will be the one who holds back and ensures that you stay a virgin, something that you have told me a million times is important to you".
100
Sorry for the double post; I ballsed up the editing. Go with the seond one (@99) and ignore the first (@98).
101
Everybody dates an asshole once in their life. It's pretty well unavoidable, so forgive yourself for being naive. However, dating an asshole is a fantastic learning experience. Once you realize that you are/were dating one, you can reflect on things that happened during the relationship, and you realize, HEY...that incident was some real assholery. And then, when you come across a similar situation in the future, you realize, HEY...I do NOT have to put up with that. And so you don't.
It is really that simple.
It is really that simple.
102
A good trick I've always used is that you can easily imagine how s/he goes about their daily routine without you. It's both a sign of the person being open and honest enough for you to see many different facets of their personality (not just the I'm-on-a-date side), and also weeds out the people who seem to depend on you for everything.
Also, @94/84: love the list, I think it pretty much all applies to me (even the cat). Don't listen to anybody who says you're being too picky--I'm 23 too, and even I know that being picky is only dating people who have brown hair, not only dating with compatible political/spiritual ideologies. Sheesh.
Also, @94/84: love the list, I think it pretty much all applies to me (even the cat). Don't listen to anybody who says you're being too picky--I'm 23 too, and even I know that being picky is only dating people who have brown hair, not only dating with compatible political/spiritual ideologies. Sheesh.
103
This is an amazing comment thread.
My advice (knowing that many people don't read unregistereds, but I rarely feel the need to comment) is not about the other person, but about yourself. You have to be happy single before you can be happy in a relationship. You need to work on yourself, on building a life that you love, one with a career, friends, family, hobbies, etc. It sounds cheeserific but I think if you are happy, confident and content in your life, the people you attract/ are attracted to will also be happy, confident and content people (therefore less likely to be assholes).
That's the kind of life I had for myself when I met my husband. I took a break from dating to focus on ME. Got to the place of saying "I'd LIKE a boyfriend, but I sure don't NEED one, and it's going to take a pretty awesome guy to make me willing to give up my fantastic single life". Which is exactly what ended up happening.
My advice (knowing that many people don't read unregistereds, but I rarely feel the need to comment) is not about the other person, but about yourself. You have to be happy single before you can be happy in a relationship. You need to work on yourself, on building a life that you love, one with a career, friends, family, hobbies, etc. It sounds cheeserific but I think if you are happy, confident and content in your life, the people you attract/ are attracted to will also be happy, confident and content people (therefore less likely to be assholes).
That's the kind of life I had for myself when I met my husband. I took a break from dating to focus on ME. Got to the place of saying "I'd LIKE a boyfriend, but I sure don't NEED one, and it's going to take a pretty awesome guy to make me willing to give up my fantastic single life". Which is exactly what ended up happening.
104
Lots of great stuff in this thread! 15, 44, many more, hit the nail on the head.
One of my big realizations as I went from dating assholes to dating a great guy (my husband) was not to trust the whole butterflies in the stomach, weak in the knees thing. I finally realized, why would I want to be with a guy who made me feel nauseated and unable to stand? My husband asks me what I think and listens. I feel strong and relaxed when I'm around him. I never felt "in love" with him. No fireworks. Just good old respect, affection, compatibility (in lifestyle, values, and sex), and enjoyment. We've been together 15 years and it's just been so easy. I don't think a relationship should be work, as is so often said. (Why is it always only one person doing the work in those cases?) I say "yes" to attentiveness and respect, "no" to toil.
BTW, I must say I feel kind of sorry for LW 1's boyfriend, except for the slut-shaming part. I know how it feels not to want sex, but then to really enjoy it once it finally happens. For me, it was because of job-related exhaustion and stress. Once I quit, that problem went away entirely.
One of my big realizations as I went from dating assholes to dating a great guy (my husband) was not to trust the whole butterflies in the stomach, weak in the knees thing. I finally realized, why would I want to be with a guy who made me feel nauseated and unable to stand? My husband asks me what I think and listens. I feel strong and relaxed when I'm around him. I never felt "in love" with him. No fireworks. Just good old respect, affection, compatibility (in lifestyle, values, and sex), and enjoyment. We've been together 15 years and it's just been so easy. I don't think a relationship should be work, as is so often said. (Why is it always only one person doing the work in those cases?) I say "yes" to attentiveness and respect, "no" to toil.
BTW, I must say I feel kind of sorry for LW 1's boyfriend, except for the slut-shaming part. I know how it feels not to want sex, but then to really enjoy it once it finally happens. For me, it was because of job-related exhaustion and stress. Once I quit, that problem went away entirely.
105
Sad but true: it isn't just men doing this. I'm a lesbian in a 5-year relationship; the first years were fantastic, GGG, and wonderful. Sure, there were a few screwy things that I wish hadn't happened but I forgave. The last two years have been sad and lonely. My gf has no desire to have sex with me and has become manipulative and cold in that arena. She is always referencing my "high sex drive" as if possessing a healthy libido is something I should be ashamed of (I wouldn't even consider my sex drive all that high, to be honest.. just higher than hers!). What she's doing is trying to shift the 'blame' of us not having a sex life away from her (the one who doesn't want it) and onto me (how dare I expect an outlet for sexual expression?) It's devastating and lonely, and it's not the only problem we're having, but it's the easiest to get frustrated about and really know that my own issues are not what has caused it.
I know, I know.. DTMFA already. But it's just sad.
I know, I know.. DTMFA already. But it's just sad.
106
@clever_innuendo: You're definitely not picky. Those are kind of basic for me, except the cats and the wants kids things.
This isn't quite germaine to the topic at hand, but: the best way to find a partner is to not look. If you're happy and doing things that make you happy and some of those things are social, you are more likely to only notice the right kind of person. Constantly seeking someone to be your potential significant other is the easiest way to find a douchebag.
This isn't quite germaine to the topic at hand, but: the best way to find a partner is to not look. If you're happy and doing things that make you happy and some of those things are social, you are more likely to only notice the right kind of person. Constantly seeking someone to be your potential significant other is the easiest way to find a douchebag.
107
@77 You said it. I just told my boyfriend of four years that I still feel like I hit the jackpot with him. Sometimes I shake my head in disbelief that he chose me.
108
Well, I'm a bisexual woman, not a straight woman, but I have some advice anyway.
Make friends with the guy first. If he's not your friend, then why would you let him in your bed or in your body? Sex is an important part of the relationship, but the foundation of the relationship is the friendship. If you have sex with people you wouldn't be friends with, well, then bad things happen.
It sounds simple and obvious, but most of the women who get in trouble in relationships are in trouble because they DON'T have that underpinning of mutual caring and knowledge that friendship brings.
Make friends with the guy first. If he's not your friend, then why would you let him in your bed or in your body? Sex is an important part of the relationship, but the foundation of the relationship is the friendship. If you have sex with people you wouldn't be friends with, well, then bad things happen.
It sounds simple and obvious, but most of the women who get in trouble in relationships are in trouble because they DON'T have that underpinning of mutual caring and knowledge that friendship brings.
109
Because you wanna bang him so hard he voids his warranty? Not every bed partner is being auditioned for Keeper status.
If he's not your friend, then why would you let him in your bed or in your body?ummmmmm.......
Because you wanna bang him so hard he voids his warranty? Not every bed partner is being auditioned for Keeper status.
110
@109: Agreed. I've had some great sex with guys with whom I wouldn't dream of being friends or having a relationship.
111
There is a lot of good advice here, though you have to filter out what will work best for you.
I didn't see anyone mention this (I could have missed it) but I've found (SAFE) sex on the first date to be an extremely good way to find out whether a guy is worth keeping around--if you *want* to have sex with them and you're the kind of person that can handle casual sex/one-night stands. (If you're on a date with someone and you don't end up *wanting* to hook up with them, they probably don't qualify for additional dates anyway.)
Sex on the first date tells you pretty accurately whether or not they care about your pleasure, your safety, and your feelings. If they doesn't listen to you, what you want, your rules of engagement etc., then make it a one night stand. Or if he's too terrible, call it off in the middle. You are allowed to change your mind about what you do *at any time* and he needs to be able to handle that graciously.
After you have sex, you can also often find out a *lot* more about someone. In my experience, they will tell you things that they would not have said otherwise b/c they were trying to impress you for sex. I've found out a lot of disqualifying info during pillow talk, like whether they are habitual cheaters, what they lie about and when they think lying is ok ("This girl and I aren't really dating so I don't need to tell her who I have sex with but we don't use condoms cause they feel so bad!!"), why they are into certain sexual acts and not others (I just don't do that cause it's icky! Anyone who does that is just awful!). I've found that once the tension is relieved people tend to open up.
For me, casual sex is enjoyable enough that this tactic has worked extremely well. I walk away knowing whether the sex is might be satisfactory, whether they respect me or will try to shame me, how considerate they are, and potentially some really important details about who they are from pillow talk. If they don't pass the test for a second date, at least I still got something I wanted out of the evening--an enjoyable sexual encounter.
More...
I didn't see anyone mention this (I could have missed it) but I've found (SAFE) sex on the first date to be an extremely good way to find out whether a guy is worth keeping around--if you *want* to have sex with them and you're the kind of person that can handle casual sex/one-night stands. (If you're on a date with someone and you don't end up *wanting* to hook up with them, they probably don't qualify for additional dates anyway.)
Sex on the first date tells you pretty accurately whether or not they care about your pleasure, your safety, and your feelings. If they doesn't listen to you, what you want, your rules of engagement etc., then make it a one night stand. Or if he's too terrible, call it off in the middle. You are allowed to change your mind about what you do *at any time* and he needs to be able to handle that graciously.
After you have sex, you can also often find out a *lot* more about someone. In my experience, they will tell you things that they would not have said otherwise b/c they were trying to impress you for sex. I've found out a lot of disqualifying info during pillow talk, like whether they are habitual cheaters, what they lie about and when they think lying is ok ("This girl and I aren't really dating so I don't need to tell her who I have sex with but we don't use condoms cause they feel so bad!!"), why they are into certain sexual acts and not others (I just don't do that cause it's icky! Anyone who does that is just awful!). I've found that once the tension is relieved people tend to open up.
For me, casual sex is enjoyable enough that this tactic has worked extremely well. I walk away knowing whether the sex is might be satisfactory, whether they respect me or will try to shame me, how considerate they are, and potentially some really important details about who they are from pillow talk. If they don't pass the test for a second date, at least I still got something I wanted out of the evening--an enjoyable sexual encounter.
112
I was in exactly the same situation as LW 1 (straight female, 9 month relationship). It is a sexually and emotionally crippling experience to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't want you, no matter who you are. I got the same feedback from friends: porn addiction, in the closet, masturbation dependance, performance issues from diet and exercise or self esteem or past trauma or mommy issues etc. blah blah blah spineless douchebag blah blah. I knew I should have DTMFA. I knew it. But I didn't. And I was the one who got dumped. Thank God it happened at all.
Rinse and repeat and two years later, and I am now in the most wonderful, healthy, kinky, fulfilling relationship I have every experienced.
How could I tell the difference between my boyfriend and the douchebags of the past? I have to tell you, I couldn't at first. I really wasn't trained to recognize a good guy over a bad boy. They all seem nice in the beginning.
But over time, I learned to listen to the alarms in my head, to see the red flags, and not give in to the little crumbs the assholes threw my way to keep me.
My boyfriend's actions match his words. If we fight, we actually communicate. If something's wrong, we tell each other, rather than bottle it up.
Now the roles are slightly reversed. I have a slightly lower libido than he does. But because I've been on the other side, I try to be GGG, substitute sex with massages, help him out, make the next time a bigger experience, get in the mood rather than shut him out completely. It's not doing something I don't want to do
Rinse and repeat and two years later, and I am now in the most wonderful, healthy, kinky, fulfilling relationship I have every experienced.
How could I tell the difference between my boyfriend and the douchebags of the past? I have to tell you, I couldn't at first. I really wasn't trained to recognize a good guy over a bad boy. They all seem nice in the beginning.
But over time, I learned to listen to the alarms in my head, to see the red flags, and not give in to the little crumbs the assholes threw my way to keep me.
My boyfriend's actions match his words. If we fight, we actually communicate. If something's wrong, we tell each other, rather than bottle it up.
Now the roles are slightly reversed. I have a slightly lower libido than he does. But because I've been on the other side, I try to be GGG, substitute sex with massages, help him out, make the next time a bigger experience, get in the mood rather than shut him out completely. It's not doing something I don't want to do
113
Great comments.
I have been married a long time (20+ years). And I ask myself, how would I be viewed in light of some of these lists - and how I might have been viewed 20, 10 and 5 years ago (in addition to today). Am I am the kind of partner I'd want, say, for a good friend or am I one who should get the boot? We do fall into (sometime negative) patterns during the course of a long term relationship and we need a big splash of ice water (sometimes found in really insightful, helpful comments on a blog) to sit up and assess. And also to assess our partners (be they male or female). This would be a good set of comments to save and then pull out when things don't quite seem right - it might take a list to see what should otherwise be obvious. Am I consciously thinking of my partner's pleasure? is my partner thinking of mine? Seems so basic/obvious but sometimes it is hard to know how we get from point A to B when the changes occur over time. If this is early in a relationship, an uncaring partner might be reason to give him the boot (I'd say it IS reason). But if you have been together, it might not be a permanent character flaw but a sign that life has intervened in the nefarious way that life can and, as a caring partner, you can help pull him/her out of the rut or whatever is the thing that has turned a previously caring person into a selfish one. Long term relationships get the benefit of "context" - behaviors that happen in year 18 might be relationship killers if they happened on Date #2.
None of that means anyone should settle simply because of a LTR. The relationship might have run its course. The uncaring partner may now be incapable of changing back to who he or she was. The resentment might be just too significant to ever overcome. I deserve a partner who wants to jump me, wants to see me happy in and out of bed, wants to do what she can control to help me get there. She deserves the same. If we can't get there for each other, we need to see that and help each other to find it.
More...
I have been married a long time (20+ years). And I ask myself, how would I be viewed in light of some of these lists - and how I might have been viewed 20, 10 and 5 years ago (in addition to today). Am I am the kind of partner I'd want, say, for a good friend or am I one who should get the boot? We do fall into (sometime negative) patterns during the course of a long term relationship and we need a big splash of ice water (sometimes found in really insightful, helpful comments on a blog) to sit up and assess. And also to assess our partners (be they male or female). This would be a good set of comments to save and then pull out when things don't quite seem right - it might take a list to see what should otherwise be obvious. Am I consciously thinking of my partner's pleasure? is my partner thinking of mine? Seems so basic/obvious but sometimes it is hard to know how we get from point A to B when the changes occur over time. If this is early in a relationship, an uncaring partner might be reason to give him the boot (I'd say it IS reason). But if you have been together, it might not be a permanent character flaw but a sign that life has intervened in the nefarious way that life can and, as a caring partner, you can help pull him/her out of the rut or whatever is the thing that has turned a previously caring person into a selfish one. Long term relationships get the benefit of "context" - behaviors that happen in year 18 might be relationship killers if they happened on Date #2.
None of that means anyone should settle simply because of a LTR. The relationship might have run its course. The uncaring partner may now be incapable of changing back to who he or she was. The resentment might be just too significant to ever overcome. I deserve a partner who wants to jump me, wants to see me happy in and out of bed, wants to do what she can control to help me get there. She deserves the same. If we can't get there for each other, we need to see that and help each other to find it.
114
I'd add: for those who are challenged in talking about sex with their kids - not about birth control or some of the basics but about choices, and enjoyment, and choosing right, and keeping standards high - this is an AMAZING comment thread.
I have often thought, "how am I going to talk to my kids (boy and girls) about sex?" And I have concluded that I'd tell my son, "Guys are generally selfish. If you want to stand out, care about the girls' pleasure. You will be well-received" and then tell my daughters the same thing, "Guys are generally selfish. Any guy who does not care about your enjoyment (no matter what he might say to get into your pants) is not worth the time. Move on." (of course that assumes two things: my kids are straight (which, if they are not, I would modify the advice) and that my kids are sexual beings (oo, oo, icky, icky; don't want to admit THAT)).
Now I read these comments and they are SO MUCH BETTER than I could have provided. And helpful reading for anyone - boy, girl, woman, man, gay, stright. THANKS, ALL!
I have often thought, "how am I going to talk to my kids (boy and girls) about sex?" And I have concluded that I'd tell my son, "Guys are generally selfish. If you want to stand out, care about the girls' pleasure. You will be well-received" and then tell my daughters the same thing, "Guys are generally selfish. Any guy who does not care about your enjoyment (no matter what he might say to get into your pants) is not worth the time. Move on." (of course that assumes two things: my kids are straight (which, if they are not, I would modify the advice) and that my kids are sexual beings (oo, oo, icky, icky; don't want to admit THAT)).
Now I read these comments and they are SO MUCH BETTER than I could have provided. And helpful reading for anyone - boy, girl, woman, man, gay, stright. THANKS, ALL!
115
I think fear--especially the fear of being alone, and the fear of change--leads all sorts of people to make relationship compromises that, viewed objectively and from the outside, appear absolutely mad.
The solution to shitty relationships is having the self confidence to walk away from them. Easier said than done, I freely concede....
The solution to shitty relationships is having the self confidence to walk away from them. Easier said than done, I freely concede....
116
@ 115 Yes, that exactly. If you let the fear drive your decisions, you're in for a world of hurt. I would also add to that to listen to your longtime friends. They really care for you. They've known you a long time, and they really want your best interests. You're flitting up there on the clouds with your feelings, and they can bring you back to earth and reason. Hear what they have to say from an outside perspective and pay attention to see if it's true. I made the mistake of not listening to my friends, and it turns out they were right, all of them.
And on top of that, never put up with something in a significant other that you wouldn't put up with in a friend. I don't let my friends disrespect me. I don't let them blow me off. If they did that often, we wouldn't be friends anymore. Same with significant others.
And on top of that, never put up with something in a significant other that you wouldn't put up with in a friend. I don't let my friends disrespect me. I don't let them blow me off. If they did that often, we wouldn't be friends anymore. Same with significant others.
117
@Clever_Innuendo: I'm with you on the whole kids thing. I was 16 when I decided that I didn't want 'em. Not all women have (or want) the 'mommy gene'. The most maddening thing was the people who insisted that I would 'change my mind as I got older' and - here's the kicker - 'met the right boy'. Well, I am about to turn 31 and all those smug patronizers are eating crow. Kudos to you on knowing your mind.
118
My best friend taught me that the way to avoid assholes is to never ignore the little red flags. No matter how nice he is to you when he's pursuing, if he's a jerk in one area of life he's a jerk, full-stop.
119
A little late, but I still wanted to add my two cents. I was in exactly the same situation as LW 1 (straight female, 9 month relationship). It was a sexually and emotionally crippling experience to be in a relationship with someone who didn't want me. I got the same feedback from friends: porn addiction, in the closet, masturbation dependance, performance issues from diet and exercise or self esteem or past trauma or mommy issues etc. blah blah blah spineless douchebag blah blah. I knew I should have DTMFA. I knew it. But I didn't. And I was the one who got dumped (thank God!!).
Rinse and repeat and years later I am now in the most wonderful, healthy, kinky, fulfilling relationship I have ever experienced.
How could I tell the difference between decent guys and the douchebags of the past? I have to tell you, I couldn't at first. But over time, I learned to listen to the alarms in my head, to see the red flags, and not give in to the little crumbs the assholes threw my way to try and keep me. At the same time, I was really honest about what I wanted in a lover and boyfriend. It really helped to know what I was looking for, rather than just knowing what I didn't want. Once I knew what I really wanted, it was easier to see the difference between guys who actually cared, and those who didn't.
My boyfriend's actions match his words, and I love what he has to say. Maybe it's as simple as that.
Rinse and repeat and years later I am now in the most wonderful, healthy, kinky, fulfilling relationship I have ever experienced.
How could I tell the difference between decent guys and the douchebags of the past? I have to tell you, I couldn't at first. But over time, I learned to listen to the alarms in my head, to see the red flags, and not give in to the little crumbs the assholes threw my way to try and keep me. At the same time, I was really honest about what I wanted in a lover and boyfriend. It really helped to know what I was looking for, rather than just knowing what I didn't want. Once I knew what I really wanted, it was easier to see the difference between guys who actually cared, and those who didn't.
My boyfriend's actions match his words, and I love what he has to say. Maybe it's as simple as that.
120
And oops, sorry for the weird double post. Thought I had lost it yesterday and tried to recreate.
121
In order for any of this advice to work, you (whoever "you" is, and of any gender, really) need to be okay with not being in a relationship. I know and have known so many people who date assholes (of any gender) and stay in the relationships just to avoid being single. You need to be able to get to the point in your head where good relationship > no relationship > bad relationship. If you're not okay with not having a sex partner, all the advice in the world on red and green flags isn't going to help, because you're not going to be okay with dumping the motherfucker. So my advice is: work hard to get past the mindset that you need a sexual/romantic relationship, any sexual/romantic relationship, in order to be happy. Get to a point where you're happy on your own, and you won't be projecting more into shitty relationships than is actually there in an effort to salvage them simply for the sake of not being single.
122
First guy-- I find this interesting since my husband linked me to this. Problem is, and I don't think he was thinking of it-- just wanted me to see what an ass the guys are and how bad some of the comment are, I'm just like the guy in #1. Granted things are different, we've been together ten years and had sex almost every day early on, I do initiate sometimes, and I don't say it's him. I often don't want to have sex and always have a valid reason (or I just don't want to, that's valid as well). Same as #1, every time we do have sex, well I don't say "wow, that was great, why am I always not in the mood?", but that's certainly how I feel (which we've discussed at the appropriate time-- not during postcoital bliss). It's not my feelings that have changed (though relationships do change)-- it was my body, a hormonal disorder, and a thyroid disorder. We're working on treatment for that and I try to initiate and say yes more often. Yes, def DTMF for his completely out-of-line comments, but also tellTMF to get a MFcheck-up.
123
First guy-- I find this interesting since my husband linked me to this. Problem is, and I don't think he was thinking of it-- just wanted me to see what an ass the guys are and how bad some of the comment are, I'm just like the guy in #1. Granted things are different, we've been together ten years and had sex almost every day early on, I do initiate sometimes, and I don't say it's him. I often don't want to have sex and always have a valid reason (or I just don't want to, that's valid as well). Same as #1, every time we do have sex, well I don't say "wow, that was great, why am I always not in the mood?", but that's certainly how I feel (which we've discussed at the appropriate time-- not during postcoital bliss). It's not my feelings that have changed (though relationships do change)-- it was my body, a hormonal disorder, and a thyroid disorder. We're working on treatment for that and I try to initiate and say yes more often. Yes, def DTMF for his completely out-of-line comments, but also tellTMF to get a MFcheck-up.
124
The difference between the assholes and the good guys, in my experience, is as simple as this - the good guys don't make you feel bad.
125
Sorry, thought I'd be able to edit for #2.
What a creepy ass. I mean people have their preferences (I guess I can see how the texture of the vaginal wall and being inside of you with a part of him that is so sensitive and can feel everything might bother him---that's nothing on you, it's his issue), but he's being a jerk. Also hun, well I don't want to speak for all women, but for most women I know "fingering" is overrated (if you mean him sticking his fingers in your vagina). I agree with others that he needs to go, but if I were you I'd focus less on the vag and more on the clitoris. And I don't see how his hands could get *that* messy if he's massaging the more external parts-- your clitoris and vulva (though he should use something for lube-- a dip into you, lube, or saliva). Also, is he fingering you after he's already orgasmed in you (f you're not using condoms)? That seems to weird my husband out a little, but it's more about getting his jizz all over his hand than anything to do with me. Frankly, sometimes when I really think about it, male ejaculate makes me squeamish, and then I think about it another minute and laugh because of the fact that this shit just shooting out of them is just plain generally accepted while some guys get squeamish about lady junk.
Get the vibrator. I knew my body way before a man did, so I knew what I liked. My family moved into a place ith a massaging showerhead when I as 14 and... well, I finally got off for the first time (had been 'exploring' for years). It sounds like you (and definitely HE) are focusing a lot on the vagina. For most omen the good stuff is on the outside.
His ex is his ex for a reason And she shouldn't even be a topic when it comes to sex or what YOU need. Don't let yourself get stuck with this guy just because he was your first.
I dated a guy who was a virgin and who lost his virginity to me. I didn't lose mine to him, but he was technically my first boyfriend. We dated a year before we had intercourse. He expressed a lot of interest in giving me oral, which I did on him for a few months before eventually had intercourse. First (second? third?) red flag-- After a few times without condoms I changed my mind and wanted to go back to condoms which he wasn't 'okay' with (yeah, so what-- condoms). He also just never actually gave me oral. I got a little passive-agressive (I was young) and just stopped giving it to him. After a few weeks he complained and I told him he'd get his when I got mine. This was when he told me he'd '"thought about it" and had decided it as something he just wasn't interested in. I was newish to sex, but I knew enough to know that I could never be with a guy who couldn't go downtown--AND expected me to. We had already had a few breakups and that just cinched it for me-- finally made it final. Another guy I liked, even loved, but he seemed turned off when I got more interested in initiating sex after discovering sex had been painful for me for because of an undiagnosed vaginal infection that I had for like 3 mo. (he loved the sex, but didn't like me being assertive which was a red flag for me). He and I broke up for a lot of reasons, but that was the start of it for me, I think.
I knew my husband was special when he didn't pressure me for sex. I mean... it's just as much on me that I'd moved fast with other men, but I COULDN'T move that fast with him because, while still managing to show how completely into me he was, he was such a gentleman. I felt like a virgin again, when waiting felt like it meant more (I, like many others, didn't find it so hard to hop in the sack once I'd done it once, but I'd made a conscious decision to stop doing that). And when we did start getting physical, even before we started having intercourse, he just spent hours exploring my body and absolutely loved it.
Also, don't forget. Just because you've lost your virginity doesn't mean you need to have sex with the next guy. If sex is not something you want to do for some reason-- body issues, waiting for marriage, find a guy who's on the same page and don't.
More...
What a creepy ass. I mean people have their preferences (I guess I can see how the texture of the vaginal wall and being inside of you with a part of him that is so sensitive and can feel everything might bother him---that's nothing on you, it's his issue), but he's being a jerk. Also hun, well I don't want to speak for all women, but for most women I know "fingering" is overrated (if you mean him sticking his fingers in your vagina). I agree with others that he needs to go, but if I were you I'd focus less on the vag and more on the clitoris. And I don't see how his hands could get *that* messy if he's massaging the more external parts-- your clitoris and vulva (though he should use something for lube-- a dip into you, lube, or saliva). Also, is he fingering you after he's already orgasmed in you (f you're not using condoms)? That seems to weird my husband out a little, but it's more about getting his jizz all over his hand than anything to do with me. Frankly, sometimes when I really think about it, male ejaculate makes me squeamish, and then I think about it another minute and laugh because of the fact that this shit just shooting out of them is just plain generally accepted while some guys get squeamish about lady junk.
Get the vibrator. I knew my body way before a man did, so I knew what I liked. My family moved into a place ith a massaging showerhead when I as 14 and... well, I finally got off for the first time (had been 'exploring' for years). It sounds like you (and definitely HE) are focusing a lot on the vagina. For most omen the good stuff is on the outside.
His ex is his ex for a reason And she shouldn't even be a topic when it comes to sex or what YOU need. Don't let yourself get stuck with this guy just because he was your first.
I dated a guy who was a virgin and who lost his virginity to me. I didn't lose mine to him, but he was technically my first boyfriend. We dated a year before we had intercourse. He expressed a lot of interest in giving me oral, which I did on him for a few months before eventually had intercourse. First (second? third?) red flag-- After a few times without condoms I changed my mind and wanted to go back to condoms which he wasn't 'okay' with (yeah, so what-- condoms). He also just never actually gave me oral. I got a little passive-agressive (I was young) and just stopped giving it to him. After a few weeks he complained and I told him he'd get his when I got mine. This was when he told me he'd '"thought about it" and had decided it as something he just wasn't interested in. I was newish to sex, but I knew enough to know that I could never be with a guy who couldn't go downtown--AND expected me to. We had already had a few breakups and that just cinched it for me-- finally made it final. Another guy I liked, even loved, but he seemed turned off when I got more interested in initiating sex after discovering sex had been painful for me for because of an undiagnosed vaginal infection that I had for like 3 mo. (he loved the sex, but didn't like me being assertive which was a red flag for me). He and I broke up for a lot of reasons, but that was the start of it for me, I think.
I knew my husband was special when he didn't pressure me for sex. I mean... it's just as much on me that I'd moved fast with other men, but I COULDN'T move that fast with him because, while still managing to show how completely into me he was, he was such a gentleman. I felt like a virgin again, when waiting felt like it meant more (I, like many others, didn't find it so hard to hop in the sack once I'd done it once, but I'd made a conscious decision to stop doing that). And when we did start getting physical, even before we started having intercourse, he just spent hours exploring my body and absolutely loved it.
Also, don't forget. Just because you've lost your virginity doesn't mean you need to have sex with the next guy. If sex is not something you want to do for some reason-- body issues, waiting for marriage, find a guy who's on the same page and don't.
126
One minor detail I'd like to add: some people don't need to pay much attention to every little niggling doubt, because some people have overactive nigglers. But what they should notice is what *kind* of niggling doubts they're having. Is it about a partner's character or nature, or is it about whether the partner is "doing it right" or other mostly procedural concerns?
For example, a friend of mine was, at one point, worried because her boyfriend was not inspiring jealousy in her (or something). Basically, she was worried that she was "doing it wrong", not that he was a bad person...
For example, a friend of mine was, at one point, worried because her boyfriend was not inspiring jealousy in her (or something). Basically, she was worried that she was "doing it wrong", not that he was a bad person...
127
Some simple rules....
1) My need for sexual fulfillment is important enough to make it a priority.
This means I want to be able to have fun and explore. I wan to do things that make me feel sexy and sexual. My partner does not have to share all my sexual interests, but should be willing to try as long as they don't harm him. The expression of our sexuality should always be a fun and safe place.
2) My need for emotional security is important enough to make it a priority.
I want to feel loved and cherished. It's my job to let me partner know the things that make me feel loved. It's upto my partner to treat me in a loving manner.
3) My need for intellectual and emotional growth is important enough to make it a priority.
I enjoy learning new things and having new experiences. I look for my partner to be supportive and encouraging when I take a new class or develop new hobbies. If he takes an interest, even better!
If a guy contradicts any of those rules, it's a red flag. If he's selfish in bed and not interested in getting me off, he's no good. If he's unable to treat me in a loving manner, he's no good. If he acts controlling and possessive when I have interests outside of him, then he's no good. Any of those warning signs are an instant no.
Also, by the way, I expect my guys to apply those same rules to themselves too! Good self esteem all around is a good thing.
1) My need for sexual fulfillment is important enough to make it a priority.
This means I want to be able to have fun and explore. I wan to do things that make me feel sexy and sexual. My partner does not have to share all my sexual interests, but should be willing to try as long as they don't harm him. The expression of our sexuality should always be a fun and safe place.
2) My need for emotional security is important enough to make it a priority.
I want to feel loved and cherished. It's my job to let me partner know the things that make me feel loved. It's upto my partner to treat me in a loving manner.
3) My need for intellectual and emotional growth is important enough to make it a priority.
I enjoy learning new things and having new experiences. I look for my partner to be supportive and encouraging when I take a new class or develop new hobbies. If he takes an interest, even better!
If a guy contradicts any of those rules, it's a red flag. If he's selfish in bed and not interested in getting me off, he's no good. If he's unable to treat me in a loving manner, he's no good. If he acts controlling and possessive when I have interests outside of him, then he's no good. Any of those warning signs are an instant no.
Also, by the way, I expect my guys to apply those same rules to themselves too! Good self esteem all around is a good thing.
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