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News & ArtsMonday, July 23, 2012
Savage Love SL Letter of the Day: Who Comes First
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 3:56 PM
My girlfriend and I are loyal listeners/readers. Reading "Savage Love" has definitely helped us communicate about our relationship. Since we met things have been really wonderful. Our kinks fit together beautifully, she's accepting of being monogamish, we have an amazing time together in bed and out. The only catch is her best friend and roommate, who she used to date.
Before they moved in together, the best friend demanded that every Sunday night be reserved for just the two of them to hang out. Even when I'd been traveling for work and hadn't seen my girlfriend for a week. Okay, fine, everyone deserves a girl's night without their s/o. But after they moved in together and began seeing each other every day, that practice continued. The ex complains when I spend the night with my girlfriend at her new digs. After the move I was taking my girlfriend out on a date when she got a text from the ex asking where she was and why she wasn't home yet. My girlfriend got so upset we had to call off the date and I took her home to the roommate.
I'm trying to be patient with what looks like controlling behavior, because I came into this relationship open to poly (one of the kinks my gf and I enjoy is D/s play-maybe it's the top in me who resents someone else controlling my girl?) But it's incredibly frustrating to think I could lose this amazing girl if/when her ex decides to issue an ultimatum. Does it look hopeless? I'm head over heels for this girl, and I don't want to come between her and her best friend. But it's really hard to bite back observations about her roommate's hypocrisy (her lovers can practically move in). I don't want to turn into a resentful jerk that makes my girlfriend stressed and unhappy, but the conflicts with her roommate (that I tend to bring on) are already causing her stress.
Am I just being overly sensitive to the roommate's behavior and should chill the fuck out, or is it a red flag that this otherwise perfectly awesome relationship isn't likely to have legs?
Frustrated Lady
My response after the jump...
······················
Your girlfriend is gonna have to decide who's more important to her: her current girlfriend or he ex-girlfriend. And she's gonna have to decide whose feelings are more important to her: her current girlfriend's feelings or her ex-girlfriend's feelings.
But those might not be decisions she has to make right now.
You don't say how long you two have been together and that's an important detail and its omission could be telling. You can't expect to come first if you've only been dating this girl for a few weeks or months. It's generally a bad sign—a sign of emotional immaturity—when a person puts a new/newish girlfriend/boyfriend first; it's an even worse sign when a new/newish girlfriend/boyfriend demands to be put first. Dating is about discovery: you spend time with a person to determine if they're the one you want to put first "for the rest of your life." During this trial period—during the time that falls between a first meeting and a joint decision to make a more serious commitment—your current girlfriend's close friends, family members, and even her manipulative ex may have a stronger and more legitimate claim on her time and attentions than you do.
If it's been less than twelve weeks, FL, then your girlfriend's willingness to prioritize her creepily controlling ex can be excused. But if you've been dating for longer than three months, if you two are very serious about each other and getting more serious every day, and your girlfriend still abandons you whenever her ex snaps her fingers... well, then that's a very bad sign. Your girlfriend may have serious and seriously dysfunctional emotional entanglement with an ex. If that's the case, FL, I see confrontations, ultimatums, broken leases, and other dramas coming your way over the next three-to-six months.
Decide now if your current girlfriend is worth the grief.
2
Dude, seriously, this sounds shitty. Maybe talk to this person because what the roomate is doing not normal behavior. And simply saying how you feel regardless of how long you've been together should not be a big deal for anyone who is mature. Besides, is not this roomate telling your girlfriend person how they feel every time they send shitty texts and blow up about perceived slights?
4
DTMFA. Seriously? Weekly, without exception?
If she doesn't think the ex's behavior is creepy and weird then her judgement is suspect. If you want to give her a break, talk about it first and then DTMFA if she doesn't understand how dysfunctional this situation has become.
If she doesn't think the ex's behavior is creepy and weird then her judgement is suspect. If you want to give her a break, talk about it first and then DTMFA if she doesn't understand how dysfunctional this situation has become.
5
Yeah, this is... pretty fucking weird. And high drama.
I say "no go." It's not quite a DTMFA, but more of a "Let's just put a pin in this and you can call me back once you have your shit sorted with your not-really-ex."
@3, the 19th century would like their word back.
I say "no go." It's not quite a DTMFA, but more of a "Let's just put a pin in this and you can call me back once you have your shit sorted with your not-really-ex."
@3, the 19th century would like their word back.
7
i read that whole letter and didn't see that it was about a lesbian relationship! I was thinking through my straight-guy goggles and thought "a roommate/ex? fuck that."
it doesn't sound as if their relationship is over. yours should be until theirs is.
it doesn't sound as if their relationship is over. yours should be until theirs is.
8
Um, she's her EX. Doesn't that usually indicate a level of "we're not doing that anymore, leave me the fuck alone"?
9
Is "three months" a reasonable timeframe when dealing with lesbians? Aren't many married by that point?
I keed, I keed.
I keed, I keed.
10
I don't know that time has much to do with this. The ex sounds controlling and the gf sounds as if she's still in thrall to her ex. A standing once-a-week girls' night is fine--presumably the lw isn't always coming back from a week away--but the way the ex seems to resent any time spent with the new girlfriend does seem like she's still interested in the gf. Best friends/roommates/lovers/exes might be a bond that no one is going to break for its primacy. Ultimately, the decision of who comes first lies with the girlfriend, and I suspect that if the lw issues an ultimatum, it is the ex who will stay and the lw who goes.
If FL is willing to be patient, she may be able to ride it all out, when the ex gets really invested in her new relationship, and when FL and the current gf are more emotionally established.
But any attempt to say "it's her or me" will end badly for the FL
If FL is willing to be patient, she may be able to ride it all out, when the ex gets really invested in her new relationship, and when FL and the current gf are more emotionally established.
But any attempt to say "it's her or me" will end badly for the FL
13
Why the fuck would anyone move in with their ex? Sounds like someone was drama-prone from the beginning.
15
I like Dan's advice, but "we're hanging out every Sunday— NO EXCEPTIONS!!!" is the domain on a wackadoo, whether they're your ex, your buddy, or your partner of 20 years.
@12 I thought something similar. Based on the details the letter writer gives, it's not out of the question they're the "other." Even refers to the girlfriend's roommate as s/o?
@12 I thought something similar. Based on the details the letter writer gives, it's not out of the question they're the "other." Even refers to the girlfriend's roommate as s/o?
16
@6 Ha! Me too.
@LW The way I see it, as soon as the gf ended a date at the request of her ex, I would have been out of there. If I make plans with someone and they cancel to be with someone else, that's the last time we hang out.
@LW The way I see it, as soon as the gf ended a date at the request of her ex, I would have been out of there. If I make plans with someone and they cancel to be with someone else, that's the last time we hang out.
18
Don't issue an ultimatum, but don't sit by saying nothing either. Sure, the ex could still feel your girlfriend is "hers" and be trying to control her because of that, but what if she just doesn't like you and is trying to keep you and her ex apart because of that? Ask your girlfriend if her roommate dislikes you for some reason, and see if you can get anywhere.
19
An over-demanding, territorial, irrational, person that demands to be seen EVERY Sunday and reacts spitefully when they're disobeyed? Is FL's "ex" Jesus?
20
So, if I understand correctly, we're talking about a lesbian poly triad with two doms, one of whom is both her "ex" and her roommate, fighting over a sub who seems to take orders from both?
Yeah, I have no idea what to say about any of this. Let me know when the topic comes back to blowjobs or sex with women wearing kitty outfits.
Yeah, I have no idea what to say about any of this. Let me know when the topic comes back to blowjobs or sex with women wearing kitty outfits.
21
Ah, dyke drama, the greatest hazard of being a lesbian.
It's pretty clear that the girlfriend still has a strong emotional entanglement with the ex, even if they're no longer sleeping together. Lesbians are known for frequently maintaining strong ties with one or more exes, and we can be an incestuous little community sometimes. But when it interferes with a new relationship, that's when things get interesting.
I've been there. My former best friend was also my ex-girlfriend. For nearly five years after we broke up, we maintained a very close, codependent, unhealthy friendship with occasional benefits. During that time, I attempted to meet other women and even went out on one or two dates, but nothing really seemed to click. It wasn't until earlier this year that I met a girl online who really attracted my interest...and my ex promptly threw a tantrum and pretty much forced me to choose between her and the new girl. She claimed it was because she believed the relationship was morally wrong (because of a very large age difference), but I realize in hindsight that she was rabid with jealousy that someone else might usurp her position as my number one priority. But I cared for this new girl enough to tell my ex that she was not allowed to issue me an ultimatum, just as the new girl was not allowed to order me not to hang out with my ex, and that whoever issued an ultimatum was automatically going to lose. Suffice to say, we're no longer speaking. Even though I knew the new girl was not destined to be a long-term relationship, because of the age difference and the fact that we live several states apart, I could see that this was the tip of the iceberg. If my ex was so adamant about this, what would her next ultimatum be? I was not about to let her dangle the threat of her abandoning me over my head every time she disagreed with something I did.
My point here is, the LW's girlfriend hasn't reached that point yet. Her attachment to the ex is still strong enough that she's not willing or ready to break the chains of control. (And did I read this letter correctly? She moved in with the ex AFTER getting together with the current girlfriend? WTF?) Either she doesn't feel strongly enough about the LW to resist her ex's controlling behavior, or she's so codependent with her ex that she's willing to sacrifice something she really wants in order to placate the ex. It doesn't really matter which is the case, because both scenarios spell doom for the new relationship.
More...
It's pretty clear that the girlfriend still has a strong emotional entanglement with the ex, even if they're no longer sleeping together. Lesbians are known for frequently maintaining strong ties with one or more exes, and we can be an incestuous little community sometimes. But when it interferes with a new relationship, that's when things get interesting.
I've been there. My former best friend was also my ex-girlfriend. For nearly five years after we broke up, we maintained a very close, codependent, unhealthy friendship with occasional benefits. During that time, I attempted to meet other women and even went out on one or two dates, but nothing really seemed to click. It wasn't until earlier this year that I met a girl online who really attracted my interest...and my ex promptly threw a tantrum and pretty much forced me to choose between her and the new girl. She claimed it was because she believed the relationship was morally wrong (because of a very large age difference), but I realize in hindsight that she was rabid with jealousy that someone else might usurp her position as my number one priority. But I cared for this new girl enough to tell my ex that she was not allowed to issue me an ultimatum, just as the new girl was not allowed to order me not to hang out with my ex, and that whoever issued an ultimatum was automatically going to lose. Suffice to say, we're no longer speaking. Even though I knew the new girl was not destined to be a long-term relationship, because of the age difference and the fact that we live several states apart, I could see that this was the tip of the iceberg. If my ex was so adamant about this, what would her next ultimatum be? I was not about to let her dangle the threat of her abandoning me over my head every time she disagreed with something I did.
My point here is, the LW's girlfriend hasn't reached that point yet. Her attachment to the ex is still strong enough that she's not willing or ready to break the chains of control. (And did I read this letter correctly? She moved in with the ex AFTER getting together with the current girlfriend? WTF?) Either she doesn't feel strongly enough about the LW to resist her ex's controlling behavior, or she's so codependent with her ex that she's willing to sacrifice something she really wants in order to placate the ex. It doesn't really matter which is the case, because both scenarios spell doom for the new relationship.
24
For those who say that you can't live with an ex as a friend/roommate, I would say that that's true for the most part, but not always. It requires you to really be done with that person in a romantic/sexual way and to, you know, be a mature adult about it. My current roommate is my ex from four years ago. After a cooling off period, we decided to remain friends. It just works well when we live together because I hate living with strangers; he already knows what to expect from me and vice versa. And there is absolutely no sex between us. I've gone out on dates and had guys over before, and all my roommate says is, "Oh, he seems nice," or, "Did you have fun?" And that's it. We respect each other's privacy and have boundaries.
Based on my experience, these ladies are doing it wrong. lol. They seem to not have any boundaries. The LW's GF is clearly still beholden to the ex in an unhealthy way. And the ex is clearly batshit. If my roommate, ex or no, tried to demand that I come home in the middle of a date in the absence of an emergency, I'd tell him to grow the fuck up or pack some boxes. But I voluntarily tell him who my date is and when I'm coming home out of courtesy and because he's my internet date phone buddy. If I'm not home by x time, call the National Guard or something.
Also, I agree about ultimatums. They rarely work, especially if your relationship is not long-established, and all they do is make the person making them look bad. (Plus, you'll actually have to follow through with them, so you shouldn't do that unless you intend to follow through.) Many people have this urge to rebel against any demands, especially if they feel that they are unreasonable. So it's really lose-lose that way. If you talk to her calmly and explain the way you feel without insulting the ex, you come off as the reasonable one. If that doesn't work, then just walk away. You're not going to change anything.
More...
Based on my experience, these ladies are doing it wrong. lol. They seem to not have any boundaries. The LW's GF is clearly still beholden to the ex in an unhealthy way. And the ex is clearly batshit. If my roommate, ex or no, tried to demand that I come home in the middle of a date in the absence of an emergency, I'd tell him to grow the fuck up or pack some boxes. But I voluntarily tell him who my date is and when I'm coming home out of courtesy and because he's my internet date phone buddy. If I'm not home by x time, call the National Guard or something.
Also, I agree about ultimatums. They rarely work, especially if your relationship is not long-established, and all they do is make the person making them look bad. (Plus, you'll actually have to follow through with them, so you shouldn't do that unless you intend to follow through.) Many people have this urge to rebel against any demands, especially if they feel that they are unreasonable. So it's really lose-lose that way. If you talk to her calmly and explain the way you feel without insulting the ex, you come off as the reasonable one. If that doesn't work, then just walk away. You're not going to change anything.
25
Get rid of that bitch. Anyone that emphasizes an old fling over a romantic partner is not anyone you want to date.
I don't even know what to fuck say. People who have once dated have no business rooming with each other; they completely demand disaster of the poor few who actually date them.
To hell with that bitch.
Mr. Savage, you're a complete fucking moron who can't tell his ass from a whole in the ground.
I don't even know what to fuck say. People who have once dated have no business rooming with each other; they completely demand disaster of the poor few who actually date them.
To hell with that bitch.
Mr. Savage, you're a complete fucking moron who can't tell his ass from a whole in the ground.
26
She moved on with her ex after the relationship ended and regularly drops you for her? DTMFA, she is clearly still deeply attached to her ex and is likely hoping they will get back together. You are just jealousy bait...she's basically saying oh you are seeing other people so look I can too! As for the ex I'd day she's keeping your girlfriend as a backup plan in case she doesn't find better
28
I don't know about the 12-week limit though. I've been in (and witnessed) some relationships that were still not at all serious at 6 months, and some that were insanely serious already at 1 month.
29
I'm glad you both read Dan's advice so she can also read his answer and all the comments. I believe it's unhealthy to maintain the ex as any kind of priority. That's not an ex at all, much less if she reserved every Sunday for her. F'get it. I understand the meaning of poly- and -ish but this is something else. Either you have a clarifying talk where she states that her roommate/ex is more than that or you DTMFA.
30
Why do you need to wait 12 weeks when it's already obvious the ex is a controlling psycho, and the gf isn't really available?
31
Seriously Dan - were you drinking and posting again? Or distracted by some asshole's abs again?
If it's been less than twelve weeks, FL, then your girlfriend's willingness to prioritize her creepily controlling ex can be excused.
Since when is that *ever* okay? You shouldn't put up with that shit on a *first* date, much less from an ongoing relationship.
If it's been less than twelve weeks, FL, then your girlfriend's willingness to prioritize her creepily controlling ex can be excused.
Since when is that *ever* okay? You shouldn't put up with that shit on a *first* date, much less from an ongoing relationship.
32
Somebody is lying to you, FL. Seriously? Her "ex" is anything but.
I mean, come on: Living with her? And she gets an absolute claim on once a week Ex Time, such that you get kicked to the curb? And your girlfriend not only reserves this once-a-week time for her without fail, but interrupts dates with you to go be with her when she pitches a hissy? And she gets all resentful when you spend time at the house?
Either accept the fact that you are a secondary (regardless of what she might be telling you with her words), or else tell your girlfriend -- sorry, I mean your girlfriend's ex-girlfriend's girlfriend -- to contact you when the ex is actually her ex.
I mean, come on: Living with her? And she gets an absolute claim on once a week Ex Time, such that you get kicked to the curb? And your girlfriend not only reserves this once-a-week time for her without fail, but interrupts dates with you to go be with her when she pitches a hissy? And she gets all resentful when you spend time at the house?
Either accept the fact that you are a secondary (regardless of what she might be telling you with her words), or else tell your girlfriend -- sorry, I mean your girlfriend's ex-girlfriend's girlfriend -- to contact you when the ex is actually her ex.
33
Add me to the brigade yelling "what the hell does twelve weeks have to do with it?" What is at issue here is how the girlfriend and the ex are treating each other.
I get that when you are still only casually dating, you don't get as high priority as established friends, family, et cetera. Even other folks she might be casually dating at the same time; you are at best, on parity with them. I disagree, however, that the list should include exes. If the ex is having that much of a claim on their time and an impact on their life, it is entirely sensible of you to look at that and say, "No thank you: too much drama for me." This is true whether you have been dating for twelve weeks or twelve minutes; if the ex calls up during your date and makes a scene, and your date up and bolts, that tells you all you need to know about the two of them and their level of entanglement.
I get that when you are still only casually dating, you don't get as high priority as established friends, family, et cetera. Even other folks she might be casually dating at the same time; you are at best, on parity with them. I disagree, however, that the list should include exes. If the ex is having that much of a claim on their time and an impact on their life, it is entirely sensible of you to look at that and say, "No thank you: too much drama for me." This is true whether you have been dating for twelve weeks or twelve minutes; if the ex calls up during your date and makes a scene, and your date up and bolts, that tells you all you need to know about the two of them and their level of entanglement.
34
One other thing: "but the conflicts with her roommate (that I tend to bring on) are already causing her stress."
No. You do not "tend to bring on" those conflicts. You are not the one throwing fits. You are the one already being more than accommodating. The one who is throwing the fits and who isn't being accommodating -- neither of which, in my book, are things that exes get to do -- is the ex, not you. Do not carry her shovelsful of bullshit for her.
No. You do not "tend to bring on" those conflicts. You are not the one throwing fits. You are the one already being more than accommodating. The one who is throwing the fits and who isn't being accommodating -- neither of which, in my book, are things that exes get to do -- is the ex, not you. Do not carry her shovelsful of bullshit for her.
35
As said above, more lesbian drama. LW- Move on, unless you like the 3-way you're already in.
Dan must have been too wasted to think clearly with this advice- DTMFA.
Dan must have been too wasted to think clearly with this advice- DTMFA.
36
You know I love you Dan, but 35 is so right! You should have said DTMFA because this letter writer is clearly getting played.
38
"it's incredibly frustrating to think I could lose this amazing girl"
Accept that she isn't yours to lose. She is her own person, and currently you are not her priority.
Accept that she isn't yours to lose. She is her own person, and currently you are not her priority.
39
Today's LW is suffering from severe blindness to the real situation. Her new girlfriend's ex is not her ex, they're still together. Sorry, this is a poly relationship not monogamish and the LW is the secondary and being lied to. DTMFA, poly requires honesty and this relationship is lacking it.
40
"After the move I was taking my girlfriend out on a date when she got a text from the ex asking where she was and why she wasn't home yet."
Are you sure that she's an ex? It sounds like she's the primary girlfriend and you're a secondary.
Are you sure that she's an ex? It sounds like she's the primary girlfriend and you're a secondary.
41
The key word here is "Ex". Ex, Ex, Ex. Remind the Ex that she's still the Ex and not the Current.
42
I'm with everyone saying the "ex" really isn't, and that the 3-month guideline is absurd. If you're prioritizing your ex over people you're currently dating, you're not over the ex, and it's unfair to your dates that you're dating at all, unless you make it clear from the beginning that you're currently in the process of breaking up with your not-quite-yet-ex-partner. Hooking up is fine, but your 'girlfriend' is misrepresenting her current relationship with her roommate, FL. If she doesn't knock it the fuck off when you confront her, DTMFA.
43
#26 PenguinGirl said it all a lot more clearly and succinctly than I did. Whether she truly is jealousy bait or the girlfriend's half-hearted effort to begin moving on (and the second seems unlikely, given that the move in with the ex happened after the new relationship began), the LW needs to accept that she is not #1 in the girlfriend's heart. And there's nothing wrong with poly, but a poly situation involving an ex, particularly where lesbian emotions are involved, is just a giant powderkeg waiting for a spark.
44
And @6 venomlash, I thought the same thing. Or at least that the word "comes" was intended in a more...literal sense.
45
Add my vote to what #16 says, too. Regardless of who you are -- first date, romantic partner, hell, even Mom -- if we are out doing something together and you ditch me to go do something else**, you have just conclusively demonstrated that you don't really want to be spending time with me. My response to that is to relieve you of the burden of spending unwanted time with me ever again.
Well, maybe not ever again. But it's the last time that I will put time, effort, and money into offering you something you just showed that you don't much care for. You can cure that perception by being the one to arrange the next event, and demonstrating some genuine enthusiasm over the prospect not merely of being there, but being there with me.
** ( "Something else" means pretty much anything else. Exceptions made for emergencies, but if the situation you ran out for doesn't involve putting out flames or rushing your dog to the vet, you will have some work explaining what was so fucking important.)
Well, maybe not ever again. But it's the last time that I will put time, effort, and money into offering you something you just showed that you don't much care for. You can cure that perception by being the one to arrange the next event, and demonstrating some genuine enthusiasm over the prospect not merely of being there, but being there with me.
** ( "Something else" means pretty much anything else. Exceptions made for emergencies, but if the situation you ran out for doesn't involve putting out flames or rushing your dog to the vet, you will have some work explaining what was so fucking important.)
47
I had a very similar situation as Snoopy, except I'm a straight girl and my ex is a boy. After three years of an "ex/best friend" relationship, I met a new guy that I have now been with for four years. In the beginning, I tried bringing everyone to the table but my ex declared new guy to be an asshole (true, but not for the reasons that he stated) and demanded that I choose. (This, after I forgave his sister for fucking a guy I was dating - not once, twice! - in order to preserve my established relationship with their family. )
If - after Dan's caveats - your girl isn't choosing you, walk away.
If - after Dan's caveats - your girl isn't choosing you, walk away.
48
I'm with #45. Ditching a date because someone else doesn't feel comfortable with it - wtf? Dealing with the kind of person who insists that their friend/ex/roommate/whatever ditches their date to come running home is not going to bring happiness to your life either.
I live with my ex, and it works well for us. I'd say he's something like my best friend, too. But neither of us would dream of clawing for that kind of control over each other's lives, because we've moved on and made our relationship something different. It sounds like the LW's girlfriend and her ex have to put some clear blue water between where they are now and what they used to be to each other. It sounds like the LW is a casualty of that process, or of the absence of that process.
In any poly relationship or one where there are other people closely connected to it, how well you can get along with the other people connected to your partner is really important. If you have other partners who are obnoxious or a little bit crazy or unreasonable, no matter how lovely your partner is, it will throw the whole thing off. And the girlfriend is an active participant in this messed-up situation too - that doesn't say good things about her.
I think the LW should get out now, because this isn't going to get resolved quickly or easily. Working out boundaries with someone you live with is a lot more complicated and energy-consuming than working them out with a friend you see all the time.
I live with my ex, and it works well for us. I'd say he's something like my best friend, too. But neither of us would dream of clawing for that kind of control over each other's lives, because we've moved on and made our relationship something different. It sounds like the LW's girlfriend and her ex have to put some clear blue water between where they are now and what they used to be to each other. It sounds like the LW is a casualty of that process, or of the absence of that process.
In any poly relationship or one where there are other people closely connected to it, how well you can get along with the other people connected to your partner is really important. If you have other partners who are obnoxious or a little bit crazy or unreasonable, no matter how lovely your partner is, it will throw the whole thing off. And the girlfriend is an active participant in this messed-up situation too - that doesn't say good things about her.
I think the LW should get out now, because this isn't going to get resolved quickly or easily. Working out boundaries with someone you live with is a lot more complicated and energy-consuming than working them out with a friend you see all the time.
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