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Tuesday, July 24, 2012

Romney Adviser Says Obama Doesn't "Fully Appreciate" America's "Anglo-Saxon Heritage"

Posted by on Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 10:35 PM

Now you've gone and stepped in it, you guys. You pushed the "evil foreigner" thing one step too far. The Telegraph says a Romney adviser explained why Mitt Romney would be a better president for the United Kingdom thusly:

In remarks that may prompt accusations of racial insensitivity, one suggested that Mr Romney was better placed to understand the depth of ties between the two countries than Mr Obama, whose father was from Africa.

“We are part of an Anglo-Saxon heritage, and he feels that the special relationship is special,” the adviser said of Mr Romney, adding: “The White House didn’t fully appreciate the shared history we have”.

Wow. WOW. Wow.

(Via Gawker.)


Comments (81) RSS

Oldest First Unregistered On Registered On Add a comment
Way to go and offend, not just black people and Hispanics, but also the fucking Irish and Italians. FAAAAAAIIIIIIIIL!
Posted by I have always been... east coaster on July 24, 2012 at 10:49 PM · Report this
"the special relationship is special" seems a perfect mitt-ism.
Posted by Brice on July 24, 2012 at 10:54 PM · Report this
Racial insensitivity my ass. Try racism, pure and simple.
But I guess that is to be expected from a rich white dude of "privilege" who practices a religion that is also racist, despite the "revelations" allowing blacks into the priesthood and the whitewashing of the previous books of mormon.
What a fucking jackass.
I'm sure the Utah papers won't even mention this. They're too busy slobbering over the religious parade today and making sure we all know what Brigham Young and the pioneers supposedly did.
(Though the SL Trib originally had a story with the words Mitt's Minions in the title - it has since been changed to Mitt's backers).
Posted by StuckInUtah on July 24, 2012 at 10:55 PM · Report this
"The advisers spoke on the condition of anonymity because Mr Romney’s campaign requested that they not criticise the President to foreign media."

But it is okay for your people to do that as long as they do it anonymously?

"He also attacked Mr Obama on Tuesday over the 'contemptible' alleged leak of secrets about the raid that killed Osama bin Laden, the drone campaign against al-Qaeda and cyber-attacks on Iran."

So when Obama's people do it it is bad.
But when Romney's people do it it is good.
Posted by fairly.unbalanced on July 24, 2012 at 11:01 PM · Report this
LEE. 5
well my Czech-Alsatian ass has just been offended...
Posted by LEE. on July 24, 2012 at 11:23 PM · Report this
Unregistered User 6
Racist dog-whistle ahoy!
Posted by Unregistered User on July 24, 2012 at 11:29 PM · Report this
holy. crap.
Posted by Digitocalypse on July 24, 2012 at 11:32 PM · Report this
We Already Stole Plenty
Posted by dirge on July 24, 2012 at 11:38 PM · Report this
Xenos 9
Kevin Drum wrote earlier today that this election was going to force him to slice his own wrists... before I would have said suicide is never the answer but now? Someone start the bath...
Posted by Xenos on July 24, 2012 at 11:38 PM · Report this
Sargon Bighorn 10
He's MORMON get a clue. Black people are not the "chosen" race. Nor are they of the 12 Tribes that came to America. To a Mormon they are still cursed, any other statement is BS.
Posted by Sargon Bighorn on July 24, 2012 at 11:47 PM · Report this
And no one will care that isn't already. Democrat, but if an Obama aid said that Romney didn't understand Africa there would be weeks of discssions about "reverse" racism.
Posted by Spike1382 on July 24, 2012 at 11:54 PM · Report this
Urgutha Forka 12
Shared history?

We've been at war with England twice.

I don't think we've ever been at war with Africa.

Not that any of that matters. Well, except the racists, although it doesn't matter with them either.
Posted by Urgutha Forka on July 24, 2012 at 11:58 PM · Report this
Reverse Polarity 13
Holy fuck!

You know all those blacks that voted for Obama that aren't all that exited to re-elect him? I think they just got re-energized. You know all those hispanic voters in a few swing states that Rmoney desperately needs to win? Say goodbye to those voters.

Racist dog whistles may have worked in the 1980s, but they'll do just the opposite in 2012.
Posted by Reverse Polarity on July 24, 2012 at 11:59 PM · Report this
NaFun 14
@12 : Um, pirates on the Barbary Coast in the early 1800s (see USS Constitution, shores of Tripoli, etc) would count I think. Also Libya recently, and Somalia. Not to mention that whole slave trade thing was partially fueled by stoking civil war on the continent.
Posted by NaFun on July 25, 2012 at 12:11 AM · Report this
delirian 15
The Telegraph comments on that article are seriously vile!
Posted by delirian on July 25, 2012 at 12:57 AM · Report this
internet_jen 16
Morocco was the first country to recognize and want a treaty with the American Republic.…

I know it's not Kenya, but still.
Posted by internet_jen on July 25, 2012 at 1:20 AM · Report this
internet_jen 17
Hah, how will this sit with the TEA PARTY?
Posted by internet_jen on July 25, 2012 at 1:24 AM · Report this
JensR 18
:D Well, dear America - welcome to European style racism! Where you simply swap skin colour for ethnicity. Someone has wierd earlobes? Perhaps he or she is romani! That person over there has a wierd accent? African!
Its basicly the same only a bit more creapy since the racist talks about ethnicity or better yet "culture" instead of things like race or skin colour.

Posted by JensR on July 25, 2012 at 1:44 AM · Report this
Puty 19
I may just be super fukien dur nk right now on canadian-irish beer but I am really diggin the flow of thse comments
Posted by Puty on July 25, 2012 at 2:14 AM · Report this
I just want to know which is the greater sin against Anglo-Saxon solidarity in the minds of Torygraph readers: Obama's Kenyan heritage or his Irish heritage?
Posted by Warren Terra on July 25, 2012 at 3:29 AM · Report this
So, a Mormon runs a racist campaign? Can't say I'm surprised.
Posted by MR M on July 25, 2012 at 5:00 AM · Report this
It was stupid, but let's face it, no one who was going to vote for Romney before isn't going to change their mind over this. I can promise you they'll look on charges of racism or racial insensitivity with rolled eyes.

The real mistake is it might - might - push people, particularly minority voters, who weren't going to vote at all into voting for Obama. Enough to make a difference? Remains to be seen.
Posted by NateMan on July 25, 2012 at 5:12 AM · Report this
passionate_jus 23
Romney's campaign seems to be imploding from within.

And now Romney is going to go off to the Olympics, where I'm sure he'll be caught saying more stupid things.

And where he'll remind all of us again just how rich he is -- hey he owns a horse competing in the Olympics.

What an asshole.
Posted by passionate_jus on July 25, 2012 at 5:13 AM · Report this
Well considering Obama is half Anglo-Saxon, I'd say Mittens is not only RAYCESS!!! but full of crap.
Posted by DrSlipnSlide on July 25, 2012 at 5:35 AM · Report this

The Truth hurts, doesn't it girls.....

Not just Anglo-Saxon; Protestant Anglo-Saxon.

The Protestant ethic is what makes America,
and before her Britain,


It's not the blood in the veins.

It is the Ideals and Aspirations in the Heart.

Compare the contribution Britain has made to that of Africa.
Or Spain.
Or Italy.
Or Russia.
Or Egypt.
Or any other nationality or nation you care to offer.

Socialism doesn't make you great
(it is sucking the vitality out of Britain)

Sucking and Clawing at the Titty of the Nanny State
all of your life
doesn't make you great.

Why did America become what it did while Argentina and Brazil wallowed.
Both were resource rich area settled by Europeans....

Mediterranean Catholics settled Latin America.
Anglo-Saxon Protestants settled and established the culture of America.
And therein lies Destiny.....

Posted by BenGay might help the ButtSore on July 25, 2012 at 5:53 AM · Report this
Mittens needs to just keep his mouth shut on his vacations to visit his money.
Posted by DrSlipnSlide on July 25, 2012 at 5:55 AM · Report this
mrbarky 27
Leave Mitt and his fancy dancing horse alone!
Posted by mrbarky on July 25, 2012 at 6:42 AM · Report this
This won't make any difference unless it appears in papers like the Seattle Times. No sign of it today. Even if it does, it's an effective way to make Americans feel good about their racism. t
Posted by sarah70 on July 25, 2012 at 7:07 AM · Report this
Joe Szilagyi 29
@25 explain to me again how the English did more for Western culture, compared to the Italians, aka the Romans. Or, you know, the Greek. When those had thriving sciences, arts, and political society to go with their roads across Europe, the English were squatting in huts and fighting each other when they weren't busy interrupting fights between two sides of Scots to oppress both sides.
Posted by Joe Szilagyi on July 25, 2012 at 7:15 AM · Report this
Daddy Love 30
I think the president might not be white. Enough.
Posted by Daddy Love on July 25, 2012 at 7:16 AM · Report this
Sigh... I'm strongly wishing we DID have a strong liberal press in this country. You know, strong in that unhinged and influential sense that Newscorp (Fox News, etc.) and right-wing propaganda radio is strong.

Because if we did, there'd be no end to this until Romney fired whoever said that, and not even then.

Speaking of Hispanic voters, Romney is a pendejo. Spread the word.
Posted by Brooklyn Reader on July 25, 2012 at 7:17 AM · Report this
good morning Joe.

it's 2012.

your calendar seems to have stopped
several thousand years ago.....

The Romans were awesome but, sorry; Italians≠Romans

and the Greeks certainly were clever at math.

but try to focus;
look at the modern world
and you will see that most that is desirable and beneficial
sprang from Protestant Anglo-Saxon culture.

and functional modern societies are,
by and large,
those that adopted those values.

and they are functional,
by and large,
to the extent that they were successful at adopting them.

America and the Commonwealth at the top of the heap.
Germany and Scandinavia next.
Japan (adopters of Prussian and British values when the modern state was developing....) is high up there.
the Catholic European nations come dragging along somewhere in the middle. their former colonies somewhere below.
Orthodox Russia and Greece? basket cases.
Muslin nations? enough said.
SubSahara Africa? ouch.
Posted by once more into the breach... on July 25, 2012 at 7:46 AM · Report this
You_Gotta_Be_Kidding_Me 33
In context he is obviously using it as an adjective meaning of or relating to Britain and the US, esp their common legal, political, and commercial cultures, as compared to continental Europe.

And that's a hell of a lot less of a stretch than the left's weak explanation of "you didn't build that".
Posted by You_Gotta_Be_Kidding_Me on July 25, 2012 at 7:58 AM · Report this
Pol Pot 34
Witness the full fruit of Nixon's southern strategy. The GOP is now Aryan Nation Lite. They've put down the dog whistle in favor of the megaphone.
Posted by Pol Pot on July 25, 2012 at 8:24 AM · Report this
sloegin 35
Gee Mitt, better check yer creds there, being an anchor baby and all; or having your proxy John Sununu doing dog-whistle attacks as well, (Arab-American, born in Cuba).

But hey, white people.
Posted by sloegin on July 25, 2012 at 8:26 AM · Report this
Looks like Once More Into the Breach has read his Samuel Huntington. Unfortunately he was naive or ignorant enough to believe it.
Posted by carnivorous chicken on July 25, 2012 at 8:29 AM · Report this
venomlash 37
@25: You're missing a lot of history here bro.
The Spaniards controlled a massive overseas empire to match that of Great Britain, and the wealth they amassed from their exploitation of the New World, blood money as it was, was the envy of all nations.
The Abbasid Caliphate, ruling virtually the entire Middle East from its seat in Baghdad, was a center of science and culture at a time when Christian Europe was still in the Dark Ages, and it was they who preserved much of the knowledge of the Greeks.
And the Ottoman Empire? They surpassed pretty much everybody in their heyday.

Of course, you'd like to attribute the values that this country was built on to WASP culture. As if they had anything to do with Teutonism or Protestantism!
Posted by venomlash on July 25, 2012 at 8:37 AM · Report this
Pol Pot 38
@36- had to look up Samuel Huntington. What a vile and odious creature. Doubt our little troll is erudite enough to have read him however. If he reads at all, he probably reads the mad scribblings of Glenn Beck.
Posted by Pol Pot on July 25, 2012 at 8:38 AM · Report this
Also, @25:

Brazil's doing better economically than Britain, in no small part thanks to social democratic economic policies.
Posted by redemma on July 25, 2012 at 8:47 AM · Report this

oh please do enlighten us....

who beats the Brits?
Posted by giggily puff on July 25, 2012 at 8:52 AM · Report this
Supreme Ruler Of The Universe 41

If you compare the Bush-Blair friendship, then yes, the two governments (not men) had different relationships. Obama chose not to make England "special" among European equals as his predecessor did.
Posted by Supreme Ruler Of The Universe on July 25, 2012 at 8:55 AM · Report this

oh Junior, the point is right there and you are missing it.

Sure the Spaniards had an empire.
and stole a shitload of silver and gold.
and imposed their cultural values on the peoples they oppressed.
and the nations that succeeded their empire were a collection of disfunctional poverty stricken cripples.

ditto Islam.

the wreckage those empires left behind pretty much define the term 'third world hellhole'

compare and contrast them with the nations that adopted British values; USA and the Commonwealth.

even you will see the difference.

the values of the empire builder make a huge difference in the functionality of the nations that arise from the old empires.


And if it was not Protestantism that molded American cultural values then what?

please share.....

Posted by seems you are not smarter than a fifth grader... on July 25, 2012 at 9:05 AM · Report this
Max Solomon 43
@33: you mean when the left put the comments in context with the previous sentence and then pointed out that willard said the exact same thing multiple times?

might i point out that a MORMON BISHOP is not exactly a member of the C of E, so his bona fides as an Angle or a Saxon are suspect? i have no doubt that eyes are rolling in England over this, too.

Posted by Max Solomon on July 25, 2012 at 9:31 AM · Report this
Max Solomon 44
President Obama is also descended, on his Mother's side, from pilgrim Deacon John Dunham of the Plymouth Colony. Jonathan Dunham and his wife migrated to Woodbridge Township, New Jersey (the first Township of New Jersey, which was chartered on June 1, 1669 by King Charles II of England),where they were granted 213 acres (0.86 km2) of land by the newly appointed Governor of New Jersey.

Posted by Max Solomon on July 25, 2012 at 9:37 AM · Report this
Matt from Denver 45
@ 33, sorry. Anglo-Saxon is an ethnic term, not a cultural term.

The racists dog whistle's a-blowin.... While @ 44's telling the truth, most people forget Obama's mother was white at all, let alone descended from colonials.
Posted by Matt from Denver on July 25, 2012 at 9:44 AM · Report this
Gay Dude for Romney 46
This is astonishing.

But staffers do often fail their bosses, so we really can't blame Mitt. No more than we can blame Obama for Anita Dunn praising Mao Tse Tung.
Posted by Gay Dude for Romney on July 25, 2012 at 9:56 AM · Report this
Max Solomon 47
Sasha & Malia should join the DAR. watch heads explode.
Posted by Max Solomon on July 25, 2012 at 10:38 AM · Report this
Cracker Jack 48
@25: Yep... history only counts when you want it to. Each of those countries you listed was the powerhouse of its day. And some for MUCH longer than America has been a superpower.

Idiots like you who insist that our greatness is somehow due to our dominant racial or religious make-up as opposed to what we do with our opportunities DESPITE those aspects of our culture are the ones driving us back to the dirt while nations like China rise. Oh, by the way, they were pretty influential back in the day, too.
Posted by Cracker Jack on July 25, 2012 at 10:50 AM · Report this
"But staffers do often fail their bosses, so we really can't blame Mitt."

Strange how you show up whenever there is racism to defend.
If Romney does not publicly fire whomever made that statement then he will be seen as condoning it.
But I'm sure you'll defend whatever the racists say and do.
Posted by fairly.unbalanced on July 25, 2012 at 10:57 AM · Report this
Sweeney Agonistes 50
Yeah, that's straight up Sons of Confederate Veterans talk. :|
Posted by Sweeney Agonistes on July 25, 2012 at 11:15 AM · Report this
@37: to add to your history lesson, Kenya was part of the British Empire when Obama's father was born, and remained a colony until independence in 1964. Wouldn't that give Obama more fred that Romney in the Anglo-Saxon tradition? Unless, of course, he's just talking about skin color....

Posted by Jin Seattle on July 25, 2012 at 11:22 AM · Report this
knobtheunicorn 52
Focken Sassenach!
Posted by knobtheunicorn on July 25, 2012 at 11:25 AM · Report this
thatsnotright 53
This shows how clueless the Romney camp is on foriegn policy. Since he's so Angle Saxon does that mean Romney is unqualified to deal with the Asia, India, South America and the rest of the world? They go to one country (England) and announce "we like you best because we are ethnically similar," without considering that the rest of Great Britain (Wales and Scotland) are not Anglo-Saxon. What Romney knows about other countries is limited to their status as tax havens and lack of labor protections.
Posted by thatsnotright on July 25, 2012 at 11:57 AM · Report this
Wow..... just wow.
Posted by MinnySota on July 25, 2012 at 12:38 PM · Report this
Some Old Nobodaddy Logged In 55
@46 This is not astonishing at all. This is par for the course. I'd be astonished if I didn't hear something like this before election day.

No, it's only astonishing when you've deliberately plugged your ears, eyes, nose and all other sensory input organs so as to ignore everything about Romney and make believe that he's not at all what he obviously is: He's a rich white self-entitled bigot that got that way because he's from a group of other rich white self-entitled bigots. His goal is power and he doesn't give a flying fuck about anyone unless they're also rich white self-entitled bigots. And sorry, gay idiot for romney, if you miss anyone of those qualities, you're out. So unless you're sitting on a few hundred million in foreign banks, what you think makes no difference. Now shut your pie hole and vote for Romney!
Posted by Some Old Nobodaddy Logged In on July 25, 2012 at 1:12 PM · Report this
venomlash 56
@42: Yes, the nations arising from the breakup of the Spanish Empire haven't done so well since. DUH. That was AFTER the empire fragmented. But in its heyday, Spain was a wealthy and productive nation and a major naval power. Just the way America is now. (Except, of course, WE've long since repudiated the enslavement and exploitation of other races as an economic system. Well, in the North at least.)
Ditto the Abbasid Caliphate and the Ottoman Empire. Their nations were great centers of cultural and scientific advancement while they flourished, and the decline in the public welfare came when the empire was fragmented and power struggles gripped the remnants. That is how things work. You'd understand such things if you ever took a history class.
And if the British Protestant Anglo-Saxon cultural motif is a recipe for success, why isn't India a global superpower? It was taken over by the British and had their ideals imposed on it, bringing centralized rule and capitalism to the subcontinent. And although it achieved independence via a somewhat more peaceful method than the USA, India somehow remains underdeveloped, with many rural areas lacking entirely in infrastructure, and with poverty and corruption rampant. Explain that, punk.
Finally, you err in assuming that one factor was responsible for the molding of American cultural values, when, in actuality, our national identity draws on many sources.
Posted by venomlash on July 25, 2012 at 2:03 PM · Report this
Mitt Romney's dad was born in a Mormon "colony" (read: Commune) in Colonia Dublán, Galeana, Chihuahua, Mexico.


Mexican Mormons. The last bastion of Anglo Saxon "Christian" purity.
Posted by tkc on July 25, 2012 at 3:11 PM · Report this
@46 Ah, another informed citizen that gets his talking points from that genius Glenn Beck.

As has been shown a hundred times, and when you see the entire context of the video, Dunn was ironically paraphrasing Republican strategist LEE ATWATER - who actually wrote lengthy passages in his book and else where in admiration of "political philosophers" like Mao, Machiavelli, and... wait for it... even Joseph Goebbels. OMG! He must have been an Italian marxist nazi!

But of course you wouldn't know that because you don't even know the history of your own idiotic party.
Posted by tkc on July 25, 2012 at 3:27 PM · Report this
Noadi 59
I have two words to say to the unregistered idiot: Italian Renaissance. You know that period of time kicked off by the Italians which created the basis for the entire modern world at a time when Britain was involved in stupidity like the 100 Years War and the War of the Roses.
Posted by Noadi on July 26, 2012 at 7:38 AM · Report this
Gay Dude for Romney 60
@55: There are three "white" racist bashings in your little childish tirade. And you're calling Romney a bigot? My My.
Posted by Gay Dude for Romney on July 26, 2012 at 8:15 AM · Report this
venomlash 61
Posted by venomlash on July 26, 2012 at 11:35 AM · Report this
Gay Dude for Romney 62
@61: Thanks, zinged @55 pretty good didn't I?
Posted by Gay Dude for Romney on July 26, 2012 at 11:46 AM · Report this
Theodore Gorath 63
@60: You do now that "white" is not a racist slur, right? Especially when the people being described are white people? Also, the bash there is "bigot," not "white."

And to be fair, Romney's true inner circle is going to be all white people. His religion teaches that people with darker skin tones are garbage, cursed by god.

Oh wait, nevermind, his church changed god's will retroactively a couple decades ago.
Posted by Theodore Gorath on July 26, 2012 at 12:02 PM · Report this
Will in Seattle 64
Comrade Romney is Irish, even if he was an anchor baby.

He wouldn't know Anglo-Saxon if it hit him in the face.
Posted by Will in Seattle on July 26, 2012 at 12:50 PM · Report this
Will in Seattle 65
@47 for best idea ever.
Posted by Will in Seattle on July 26, 2012 at 12:51 PM · Report this
venomlash 66
@62: You should sojourn in the land of the cats, and learn from them their ancient art of being able to tell when someone is laughing at you.
Posted by venomlash on July 26, 2012 at 3:15 PM · Report this
Gay Dude for Romney 67
@66: I knew that you were laughing at me, but I couldn't resist the temptation to switch it around. Scarlett, my cat, approved.
Posted by Gay Dude for Romney on July 26, 2012 at 5:51 PM · Report this

racist doesn't mean what you think it does.

white guilt has clouded your 'thinking'....

please cite references for those assertions about what romney's church teaches and has done.

(dingleberries don't count.)
Posted by religious bigotry ≠ wit on July 27, 2012 at 2:51 AM · Report this

yeah, the Renaissance was neat.

but the Reformation is where the real progress occurred.

so, please list ANY nation that takes its inspiration from the Italians.

(we doubt even Italy does.....)
Posted by use as many words as you know..... on July 27, 2012 at 2:57 AM · Report this

our national identity draws on many sources but the nation's cultural values during its formative and most successful years were based on Protestantism.

'based on' > 'draws on'

what other sources contributed a tenth as much as Protestantism?
Posted by take as much time as you need.... on July 27, 2012 at 3:04 AM · Report this

in fact, the Italians have never even managed to create a successful nation of their own, let alone inform the cultural values of other nations.
Posted by wow your mom must be so embarrassed for you... on July 27, 2012 at 3:07 AM · Report this
venomlash 72
@67: Suuuuure you did, suckputter.
@69: The Protestant Reformation was when real progress was made? Are you on meth?
Sure, it led to the rise of nationalism over religious solidarity, and established an early form of freedom of religion (so long as your religion was a form of Christianity). Are there any other positive results of the Reformation?
Because the Reformation led to sectarian violence wherever it spread, instigated massacres of local religious minorities, and culminated in an outbreak of civil wars, including the 30 Years' War, which killed off 25-30% of the population of geographical Germany. If that spells progress to you, you don't know how to spell.
@70: Pastafarianism contributed ten times as much as Protestantism to American culture.
See, Alleged, this is why you should cite your sources. Otherwise anyone can make shit up.
Posted by venomlash on July 27, 2012 at 8:54 AM · Report this
Gay Dude for Romney 73
@72: No, really, I did.
Posted by Gay Dude for Romney on July 27, 2012 at 12:32 PM · Report this
venomlash 74
@73: Good, because I'm going to keep on laughing at you when you post such halfwitted blatherings on this website.
Posted by venomlash on July 27, 2012 at 1:44 PM · Report this

are there ever.....

The Reformation represented the greatest struggle for Truth and Knowledge in the history of Mankind.

For over a millennium the Whore enslaved and oppressed with Ignorance and Fear.
The masses were forbidden to study scripture or decide about religion or belief for themselves.
They were killed for possessing or reading the bible.
The were only allowed the papal version of things, fed to them by the clergy.
For only by denying the masses access to scripture for themselves could such intellectual crimes against humanity as the Nicene Creed be maintained.

The Reformation prompted the invention of printing and mass literacy, and thrived where they did.

Sure it was messy.
Overthrowing Tyranny and Oppression usually is.
You prefer the comfortable Ignorance and slavery of the Dark Ages?

The European nations that managed to overthrow the Beast went on to lead the Advance of Civilization.
Those who remained enslaved wallow in relative ignorance and mediocrity to this day.
Posted by Rock On Reformation on July 27, 2012 at 5:26 PM · Report this
venomlash 76
@75: So...apart from religious reforms, what got done? Your claims are demonstrably and ludicrously false.
Spain, which remained staunchly Catholic, retained its place a major imperial power until the early 1800s. So much for Catholic nations being doomed to "wallow in relative ignorance and mediocrity".
The Protestant Reformation was not an escape from the Dark Ages; they are, in fact, separated by some 200 years, a gap filled by the Renaissance.
You err also in crediting the Reformation with the widespread adoption of printing. The Reformation began in 1517, but hundreds of cities in Europe already had print shops by then. Luther's ideas did not spur the printing press revolution, but rather benefited from it. I'm seeing a definite pattern of you giving the Reformation credit for stuff that the Renaissance did.
So, yeah, you haven't shown how the Reformation deserves credit for today's advances. Thank you for playing.

I'm not Christian, so there's something I may be missing something, but what is your beef with the Nicene Creed? Wikipedia tells me that most Protestant denominations follow it, as well as the Catholic and Orthodox churches, and it seems a pretty innocuous testament of faith to me.
Posted by venomlash on July 27, 2012 at 6:42 PM · Report this

you get it without being willing to admit that you get it.

the Reformation is what resulted when the changes ushered in by the Renaissance were put into action.

when printing was available people printed bibles (and the desire for bibles spurred the development of printing)

a key tenet of protestantism was that every believer should read and understand scripture them self.
mass literacy.
self determination.

the Whore forbad people to own or read bibles,
told them what She wanted them to believe,
preached to them in a language they could not even understand.
the key tenet of catholicism was keeping believers ignorant and intellectually enslaved.

when and as people became able to read and decide for themselves they became protestants.
and the nations that adopted that philosophy went on to rule the world.
because enlightened thinking free people will win out over intellectually enslaved serfs.

and the reformation of religion is and was inextricably intertwined with the struggle for political and social freedom.

the history of modern Europe is the story of protestant peoples and nations throwing off the yoke of papism and becoming free.
and the story of America is that struggle reaching its natural conclusion in a new land where the protestant reforms could be fully enacted on a new blank national canvas.

there is a straight line from the Magna Carta to Gutenberg to Tyndale to the Spanish armada to the Pilgrims to Jefferson/Madison to American Exceptionalism.

sure, Spain had a period of glory.
based on looting and stealing.
not unlike Babylon.
but it left nothing behind when its ashes were blown into the dustbin of history but a legacy of ignorance and exploitation and unmet potential.


we are not 'christian' either.
but we can read.
and when people who claim to believe the bible also buy the creed we call BS.
(sort of like when people claim the bible endorses homosexuality....)
Posted by FREED0M on July 28, 2012 at 5:39 AM · Report this
and as long as
and anywhere that the Pope reigned
the benefits and advances of the Renaissance would be limited.

Copernicus and Galileo could discover
but the Pope would censor and ban and excommunicate and silence.

Until the English
broke the power
of the Pope and his stooge vassals in Spain
the only recourse Science had
was to impotently mutter "and yet it moves...." under its breath.
Posted by The Reformation had Balls of Steel on July 28, 2012 at 5:52 AM · Report this
venomlash 79
@77: You are making an argument against Catholicism, not for Protestantism. Remember, they are not the only two options out there. I will remind you that many Protestant denominations came into being with tenets just as repressive as that of Catholicism at the time. Hell, most tossed aside the Catholic concept of free will in favor of predestination!
So, go ahead and show me your evidence (that's EVIDENCE, not blithering) supporting Protestantism as the driving force behind today's powers. I've read "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism" by Max Weber from cover to cover; I fancy that I know perhaps a little more than you do.
Posted by venomlash on July 28, 2012 at 9:00 AM · Report this
lauramae 80
Romney and his minions are clueless, moronic, privileged twits. That staffer thought he was being clever in disguising racism so that only other racists would recognize it and defend it with idiotic discussions of the power of protestantism. Arrogance and destruction are the biggest products of the bullshit manifest destiny types.
Posted by lauramae on July 28, 2012 at 9:31 AM · Report this
Mitt Romney's lack of diplomacy skills alone is enough to disqualify him for the office of President of the United States.
Posted by montex on July 28, 2012 at 6:53 PM · Report this

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