Slog
News & ArtsFriday, July 27, 2012
The Ladies A Little Light Friday Reading (About Rape)
Posted by Cienna Madrid on Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 11:09 AM
It's a Friday morning (TGIF!), you're stoked about the weekend (RIGHT?!!) and about the baked eggs and ham thing you just ate (FUCKIN' YUM), and you're cruising for a little light reading to aid the digestion process.
How about all these horrific Reddit stories from rapists detailing why they rape?
I know, I know: Horrifying and depressing. But, as Jezebel points out:
...it's impossible to talk about the reasons people rape without involving rapists in the discussion. Rapists aren't hiding in the bushes: around two-thirds of rapes are committed by someone known to the victim, and 73 percent of sexual assaults are perpetrated by a non-stranger. It's a mistake to think we're justifying rapists' actions by listening to their stories. Some of them are tough to read, but their brutal honesty effectively illustrates how a lack of communication and education perpetuates rape culture. Ignoring or dismissing these men (and women) out of hand may be an effective coping strategy for a given individual, but not for society. It gets us nowhere.
So why'd they do it? What were they thinking?
I couldn't get through very much of the Reddit thread, but Jezebel highlights a few and parses through the rapists' underlying justifications—I got mixed messages! My hormones got away from me! I was peer pressured into raping that girl!—which is really what we need to be focused on. Just as women should know to use the talking point "no means no," both men and women should be made aware of the cadre of bullshit excuses used by men to justify sexual assault, because women don't rape themselves.
1
"...both men and women should be made aware of the cadre of bullshit excuses used by men to justify sexual assault, because women don't rape themselves."
Hmmm. Given the italics, bold print and general sense as a reader that you are shouting at me, I expect that you are next going to suggest that those who don't display the proper obedience to your plan to MAKE. THEM. AWARE. (fist into palm) are subject to additional, sterner measures.
Some people should be kept far away from sharp objects and positions of power. That is all I am saying. (knowing look at the few concerned moderates who read Slog)
Hmmm. Given the italics, bold print and general sense as a reader that you are shouting at me, I expect that you are next going to suggest that those who don't display the proper obedience to your plan to MAKE. THEM. AWARE. (fist into palm) are subject to additional, sterner measures.
Some people should be kept far away from sharp objects and positions of power. That is all I am saying. (knowing look at the few concerned moderates who read Slog)
2
@1
I don't even understand what your point is, other than to suggest that a "concerned moderate" is someone who will ask what a woman did to encourage herself to be raped.
I don't even understand what your point is, other than to suggest that a "concerned moderate" is someone who will ask what a woman did to encourage herself to be raped.
3
2, What I ACTUALLY wrote is right above your post. You can read it again if you need to. Your claim that I suggested something else is quite dishonest. Your rewrite of my post has no more validity than if I claim your post "suggests" you wish to falsely prosecute men for rape. Of course you don't, and such deceptive rewrites are outrageous, so I should not make them.
In short, feel free to engage in fiction composition, but please leave my name off the line of authorship.
The real point is the author of that article should understand that you can go to all the Take Back the Night rallies you want, and people will chant back your rhetoric at you. Slog is a venue kind of like that.
But when you have to engage with people outside of that sort of venue, you really need to take a different approach, otherwise people tune you out.
In short, feel free to engage in fiction composition, but please leave my name off the line of authorship.
The real point is the author of that article should understand that you can go to all the Take Back the Night rallies you want, and people will chant back your rhetoric at you. Slog is a venue kind of like that.
But when you have to engage with people outside of that sort of venue, you really need to take a different approach, otherwise people tune you out.
4
There are certainly some "bullshit excuses" in the Reddit thread. But there are also a whole bunch of honest explanations. If rapists aren't supposed to talk about why they did it, and if we're not supposed to listen, where does that leave us for understanding the problem?
You might as well try to understand (and reduce) domestic violence by only talking to victims. It makes no sense to simultaneously say that victims aren't responsible for being raped *and* that we shouldn't try to learn from those who *are* responsible.
It's an unpleasant subject. But why would anyone reject trying to gain a fuller understanding of perpetrators' motives and thinking (or pathology, or however you want to label it to feel appropriately disparaging)?
You might as well try to understand (and reduce) domestic violence by only talking to victims. It makes no sense to simultaneously say that victims aren't responsible for being raped *and* that we shouldn't try to learn from those who *are* responsible.
It's an unpleasant subject. But why would anyone reject trying to gain a fuller understanding of perpetrators' motives and thinking (or pathology, or however you want to label it to feel appropriately disparaging)?
7
Females in general tend to deny their sexual urges.
How many times has a female gone into a locker room after night of lovemaking and said "hey guess what...I got fucked really hard last night and it was great!"
So, because of society, women are always revirginizing themselves. They might have a lover but call him "just a friend" if a better opportunity shows up. Or past lovers are disparaged as "not counting".
The typical denial of nearly every female is the morning after, where to a person they will refute they had any part in instigating sex even if it was legal, consensual and pleasurable for both parties!
Of course the Agendists here want to create the most anti heterosexual atmosphere possible. So sex becomes rape. Breasts become breast cancer and so on.
The effort of the Agendists is a sort of Clockwork Orange to make people disgusted by anything to do with hetero sex.
How many times has a female gone into a locker room after night of lovemaking and said "hey guess what...I got fucked really hard last night and it was great!"
So, because of society, women are always revirginizing themselves. They might have a lover but call him "just a friend" if a better opportunity shows up. Or past lovers are disparaged as "not counting".
The typical denial of nearly every female is the morning after, where to a person they will refute they had any part in instigating sex even if it was legal, consensual and pleasurable for both parties!
Of course the Agendists here want to create the most anti heterosexual atmosphere possible. So sex becomes rape. Breasts become breast cancer and so on.
The effort of the Agendists is a sort of Clockwork Orange to make people disgusted by anything to do with hetero sex.
8
Just wanted to say right now, that if anyone responds to Bailo's super trollbait post right above mine (#7 if I am too late), this thread is just going to turn into a sewer.
So let's just ignore the screaming child in the room this time maybe?
So let's just ignore the screaming child in the room this time maybe?
10
@8: It's cool, I got 'im on ignore already.
I haven't read any of the linked material, since I'm at work and it seems like exactly the kind of thing I don't want to be perusing at work, but I'm tentatively hopeful that this could be a step in the direction of trying to solve this problem by treating other humans beings like human beings instead of just yelling and yelling and yelling.
I haven't read any of the linked material, since I'm at work and it seems like exactly the kind of thing I don't want to be perusing at work, but I'm tentatively hopeful that this could be a step in the direction of trying to solve this problem by treating other humans beings like human beings instead of just yelling and yelling and yelling.
11
@1, @3
Your last two paragraphs in your second post make a point that is not at all apparent in your first post, in which you perhaps seek to be overly clever. I got that you were using analogies, but I don't think it was at all clear what your complaints about italicization and joke about sharp objects had anything to do with anything, other than that you're claiming that the original post was something you disagreed with to some degree or in totality.
@4
I'm not sure that bullshit excuses and honest explanations are mutually exclusive. (I haven't looked at Reddit.) A(n alleged) rapist can honestly think that he was justified in his actions because a woman was dressed a certain way, but if he sexually assaults her, he has still committed a crime.
Your last two paragraphs in your second post make a point that is not at all apparent in your first post, in which you perhaps seek to be overly clever. I got that you were using analogies, but I don't think it was at all clear what your complaints about italicization and joke about sharp objects had anything to do with anything, other than that you're claiming that the original post was something you disagreed with to some degree or in totality.
@4
I'm not sure that bullshit excuses and honest explanations are mutually exclusive. (I haven't looked at Reddit.) A(n alleged) rapist can honestly think that he was justified in his actions because a woman was dressed a certain way, but if he sexually assaults her, he has still committed a crime.
12
@8, you might call that supertrollbait but there's a kernal of truth in there.
If women were more empowered to own their sexual desires and agency, it'd be easier to tell the predators from the fuckups. As it is, men AND women are socialized to treat sex as a commodity that women have and men negotiate for, but that women never *really* want sex. If women never *really* want sex, than daterape/mixedsignals/fuckups are a failure of the negotiation. If, on the other hand, it's really understood that women can consent enthusiastically, the difference between consent and nonconsent will not be so easy to excuse or mistake.
My story:
I'd call the first time I had a penis in my vagina rape. It STILL makes me cringe to use that word, and it's been 9 years now, but.... I was 17 and he was 21. I was drunk, he'd definitely been drinking. we were fooling around naked, I was on my hands and knees and he was fingering me from behind. But then, without asking and without putting on a condom, he stuck his dick in me. Caught me totally by surprise and hurt like hell and scared the crap out of me. I cried (silently) while he fucked me. Did I say stop? No, I didn't. In fact, at one point I got up to wipe off the blood and came back to him. And I probably would have had sex with him if he'd asked. But not like that. That felt humiliating. And I did not want it. But I didn't open my damn mouth, either.
I even went back to him multiple times that summer and we had sex maybe half a dozen times. Because at that point I figured I was used goods, but I better not increase the number of partners I'd had. The whole situation was completely messed up.
But if I told that guy that I think he more or less raped me... I think it'd catch him completely off-guard. I dont think he knows. We haven't talked in a long time.
More...
If women were more empowered to own their sexual desires and agency, it'd be easier to tell the predators from the fuckups. As it is, men AND women are socialized to treat sex as a commodity that women have and men negotiate for, but that women never *really* want sex. If women never *really* want sex, than daterape/mixedsignals/fuckups are a failure of the negotiation. If, on the other hand, it's really understood that women can consent enthusiastically, the difference between consent and nonconsent will not be so easy to excuse or mistake.
My story:
I'd call the first time I had a penis in my vagina rape. It STILL makes me cringe to use that word, and it's been 9 years now, but.... I was 17 and he was 21. I was drunk, he'd definitely been drinking. we were fooling around naked, I was on my hands and knees and he was fingering me from behind. But then, without asking and without putting on a condom, he stuck his dick in me. Caught me totally by surprise and hurt like hell and scared the crap out of me. I cried (silently) while he fucked me. Did I say stop? No, I didn't. In fact, at one point I got up to wipe off the blood and came back to him. And I probably would have had sex with him if he'd asked. But not like that. That felt humiliating. And I did not want it. But I didn't open my damn mouth, either.
I even went back to him multiple times that summer and we had sex maybe half a dozen times. Because at that point I figured I was used goods, but I better not increase the number of partners I'd had. The whole situation was completely messed up.
But if I told that guy that I think he more or less raped me... I think it'd catch him completely off-guard. I dont think he knows. We haven't talked in a long time.
13
Dead on, 4.
Once that information is sifted and studied, you need to do something with it.
But this author should avoid the sort of gritted-teeth agenda-driven information campaign suggested in this Slog post. To impart information to others, you generally need to approach them on terms they will accept. Starting the conversation with rhetorical allcaps/ italics, rape culture references, and--let's admit it--the whiffs of gender hostility found in that last sentence, this author is unlikely to give the non-believers much incentive for attending the sermon.
Much like when listening to Baptists, I find myself wondering when the author is going to conclude more "education" means more compulsion. The message of saving souls gets lost pretty quick when the audience feels that way.
Once that information is sifted and studied, you need to do something with it.
But this author should avoid the sort of gritted-teeth agenda-driven information campaign suggested in this Slog post. To impart information to others, you generally need to approach them on terms they will accept. Starting the conversation with rhetorical allcaps/ italics, rape culture references, and--let's admit it--the whiffs of gender hostility found in that last sentence, this author is unlikely to give the non-believers much incentive for attending the sermon.
Much like when listening to Baptists, I find myself wondering when the author is going to conclude more "education" means more compulsion. The message of saving souls gets lost pretty quick when the audience feels that way.
14
Before reading 12, I never would have believed an internet posting could have caused me to have as much respect for someone in so short a time as I feel right now for that writer, Drivel.
15
It would have been nice if the Jezebel article wasn't intellectually dishonest with cutting up the reddit posts. I never understood why they do that - there's plenty of material there without needing to creatively edit!
16
The author is acknowledging that although it is difficult, it is a subject worth talking about from the perpetrator's perspective. Why shouldn't the author have an agenda? Don't you need to have one in order to properly educate?
It's interesting that an anti-rape argument would be likened to a more extreme evangelist religion. I understand that people who hold privilege get shaken up when confronted with the power they hold, but it doesn't mean that you always have to tread lightly to make sure you don't upset them.
Whenever feminist posts come up here, comments get weird.
It's interesting that an anti-rape argument would be likened to a more extreme evangelist religion. I understand that people who hold privilege get shaken up when confronted with the power they hold, but it doesn't mean that you always have to tread lightly to make sure you don't upset them.
Whenever feminist posts come up here, comments get weird.
17
@13: There are exactly 3 instances of ALL CAPS written by Cienna in this article.
TGIF
RIGHT? referring to looking forward to the weekend
And
FUCKIN' YUM referring to a meal.
The reference to rape culture was in the quote from the linked Jezebel article. Cienna never said it.
You appear to be a wee bit agenda driven there yourself what with putting words in Cienna's mouth and all.
Why don't you take your tone policing down a smidgen.
TGIF
RIGHT? referring to looking forward to the weekend
And
FUCKIN' YUM referring to a meal.
The reference to rape culture was in the quote from the linked Jezebel article. Cienna never said it.
You appear to be a wee bit agenda driven there yourself what with putting words in Cienna's mouth and all.
Why don't you take your tone policing down a smidgen.
23
That last one the Jezebel article links too is truly horrifying. Stone cold sociopath that could easily be your friendly co-worker or acquaintance.
25
The Baptist reference is apt; Slogees often go as defensive and ad hominem as church elders if you start singing from a different hymnal.
Keshmeshi, my preferred approach to opposing rape is teaching girls how to use pepper spray and digging at a man's eyeball if it gets to that.
In the past, I recall saying to various consciousness-raising types that their approach is like thinking you deal with muggings best by educating people about mugger culture. Good luck with that, I suppose. But I concluded a long time ago that much of that sort of activism is not terribly results-oriented. Like academic Marxism, it is more a pose of moral superiority.
Don't sweat me, Drivel, you write well, with profound personal insights, and speak with a stark, unsettling honesty. Well, done.
Keshmeshi, my preferred approach to opposing rape is teaching girls how to use pepper spray and digging at a man's eyeball if it gets to that.
In the past, I recall saying to various consciousness-raising types that their approach is like thinking you deal with muggings best by educating people about mugger culture. Good luck with that, I suppose. But I concluded a long time ago that much of that sort of activism is not terribly results-oriented. Like academic Marxism, it is more a pose of moral superiority.
Don't sweat me, Drivel, you write well, with profound personal insights, and speak with a stark, unsettling honesty. Well, done.
26
@25 I'm not against a nice macing and the like, but it would seem that part of the problem is that most rape is less analogous to mugging, and more like a friend letting themselves into your place because you wouldn't mind, having an acquaintance announce they didn't bring any money after the expensive meal, or finding out that the car was stolen.
Retribution has it's place, but it is a crappy deterrent.
Please recognize that your preferred method only begins after the rape is getting underway.
Retribution has it's place, but it is a crappy deterrent.
Please recognize that your preferred method only begins after the rape is getting underway.
28
@12: Uh...from your slipperiest of slippery slope description, should we conclude that you are SROTU's alter ego? I'm having a hard time not believing your post is also not troll bait.
29
you can call it whatever you want. You can certainly argue against the first paragraph. But the story is true.
30
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/200…
This link seems germane. It gives data on what percent of a group of surveyed men would admit to rape as long as you didn't calle it "rape," and how many times.
The data break down such that more than half of the men who admitted having sexual contact with women they knew didn't want it had done so more than once- an average of something like 6 times.
The implication being that yes, there are in fact predators, but also probably some fuckups. And that it's an "edge case" scenario- if you could get rid of the predators, most rapes would not happen.
My argument is that our society's script for women, that they don't "really" want sex, that it could be easy to mistake consent for not-consent, gives the predators a license to operate.
But maybe my interpretation of my story is wrong. The facts are accurate- how old I was, what we'd been drinking, what position I was in when he surprised me with his dick- but maybe he wouldn't be at all surprised to find out I was horrified by it. Maybe that's his MO. Maybe my excuses for his behavior are part of the problem. It does seem fucking complicated.
This link seems germane. It gives data on what percent of a group of surveyed men would admit to rape as long as you didn't calle it "rape," and how many times.
The data break down such that more than half of the men who admitted having sexual contact with women they knew didn't want it had done so more than once- an average of something like 6 times.
The implication being that yes, there are in fact predators, but also probably some fuckups. And that it's an "edge case" scenario- if you could get rid of the predators, most rapes would not happen.
My argument is that our society's script for women, that they don't "really" want sex, that it could be easy to mistake consent for not-consent, gives the predators a license to operate.
But maybe my interpretation of my story is wrong. The facts are accurate- how old I was, what we'd been drinking, what position I was in when he surprised me with his dick- but maybe he wouldn't be at all surprised to find out I was horrified by it. Maybe that's his MO. Maybe my excuses for his behavior are part of the problem. It does seem fucking complicated.
31
@snowguy
Okay, did you just blatantly miss the entire point here? The point is that the kind of rapist you would prefer to see women defend themselves exists on a tiny scale compared to the kind of rapist that knows the victim, and is close enough to the victim to not only engender social conflict but also personal doubt on the part of the victim as to whether or not she was somehow complicit.
That's not the kind of rape where fingernails and pepper spray are the ready solution. Rape can be as insidious as to happen mid-coitus (like when a guy removes a condom without telling his partner until she notices it afterwards- that's a true story) so it comes down to educating potential rapists (which, let's face it, is virtually anyone) and understanding why convicted rapists thought it was okay to behave in the way that they did.
Additionally, you point out that Slog readers and writers are of a type, and then criticize them for not trying to appeal broad base, particularly those they seek to influence. Why did you choose a post about rape to wax eloquent on the diplomatic skills of these confessed left wing liberal alternative newspaper writers? Because as far as being opportunistic goes, that was a pretty stupid choice.
No one cares about appealing to "moderates" here, and if you're so very interested in instructing on the way of "educating" by approaching a criminal on his terms, then I suggest you go and do that on your own blog, which clearly has such a majestically large following as to credential you thus that you may other writers how to benefit from the charity of your opinion in their editorials.
Okay, did you just blatantly miss the entire point here? The point is that the kind of rapist you would prefer to see women defend themselves exists on a tiny scale compared to the kind of rapist that knows the victim, and is close enough to the victim to not only engender social conflict but also personal doubt on the part of the victim as to whether or not she was somehow complicit.
That's not the kind of rape where fingernails and pepper spray are the ready solution. Rape can be as insidious as to happen mid-coitus (like when a guy removes a condom without telling his partner until she notices it afterwards- that's a true story) so it comes down to educating potential rapists (which, let's face it, is virtually anyone) and understanding why convicted rapists thought it was okay to behave in the way that they did.
Additionally, you point out that Slog readers and writers are of a type, and then criticize them for not trying to appeal broad base, particularly those they seek to influence. Why did you choose a post about rape to wax eloquent on the diplomatic skills of these confessed left wing liberal alternative newspaper writers? Because as far as being opportunistic goes, that was a pretty stupid choice.
No one cares about appealing to "moderates" here, and if you're so very interested in instructing on the way of "educating" by approaching a criminal on his terms, then I suggest you go and do that on your own blog, which clearly has such a majestically large following as to credential you thus that you may other writers how to benefit from the charity of your opinion in their editorials.
33
@32 talk talk talk. make him read select Savage letters and responses when he’s older, but in the meantime talk talk talk - not at him, but with him. It starts when he's out of diapers (and starts to realize what that thing can do) and it doesn't end until he's out of college.
But I suggest for this age and the next few years:
1. Proper terminology for body parts. No pet names, no cutesy monikers. It’s not a wee-wee; it’s a penis. They’re not boobies, they’re breasts. And so on.
2. No means no.
When he’s roughhousing and someone says stop, everything stops, everyone gets a check-in. This will become engrained in his mind from this young age.
Honor his “no”s and make him honor other people’s “no”s. It’s common for adults to play with kids beyond the “no” or to start the game again even after the kid has said to stop, or an adult might cajole a kid back into play. What does this teach a child? That what the other person says or feels doesn’t matter because the instigator is still having fun and that pressuring someone to do something they don’t want is okay. (The reason we parents pressure kids into doing stuff? We know they’ll like it eventually. And while that’s often true, it’s not a good lesson – I struggle with this as a parent.)
3. His body belongs to him (and hers to her, etc)
When he’s playing with a cousin who won’t stop touching his back and he’s getting annoyed, step in. When he’s old enough to that to others, step in. Discuss with him who can touch his body (you should define the limits with him – hands and top of head are usually fine for strangers, legs and arms for friends his age…) And make sure he understands as he grows that other people define that line for themselves, too.
4. Pay attention to the people around you.
Teach him how to pick up on people’s facial expressions and unconscious cues. “She looks angry right now. Let’s ask her why she’s angry,” “He looks sad,” “See how he’s turning away from you? I think he doesn’t want to play with trucks. Let’s ask him what he’d rather do.”
You can’t control whether or not he’ll be a rapist, but you can try to instill a respect for women from an early age. Set up playdates with girls as often as boys (I need to find some boys for my girls to play with).
More...
But I suggest for this age and the next few years:
1. Proper terminology for body parts. No pet names, no cutesy monikers. It’s not a wee-wee; it’s a penis. They’re not boobies, they’re breasts. And so on.
2. No means no.
When he’s roughhousing and someone says stop, everything stops, everyone gets a check-in. This will become engrained in his mind from this young age.
Honor his “no”s and make him honor other people’s “no”s. It’s common for adults to play with kids beyond the “no” or to start the game again even after the kid has said to stop, or an adult might cajole a kid back into play. What does this teach a child? That what the other person says or feels doesn’t matter because the instigator is still having fun and that pressuring someone to do something they don’t want is okay. (The reason we parents pressure kids into doing stuff? We know they’ll like it eventually. And while that’s often true, it’s not a good lesson – I struggle with this as a parent.)
3. His body belongs to him (and hers to her, etc)
When he’s playing with a cousin who won’t stop touching his back and he’s getting annoyed, step in. When he’s old enough to that to others, step in. Discuss with him who can touch his body (you should define the limits with him – hands and top of head are usually fine for strangers, legs and arms for friends his age…) And make sure he understands as he grows that other people define that line for themselves, too.
4. Pay attention to the people around you.
Teach him how to pick up on people’s facial expressions and unconscious cues. “She looks angry right now. Let’s ask her why she’s angry,” “He looks sad,” “See how he’s turning away from you? I think he doesn’t want to play with trucks. Let’s ask him what he’d rather do.”
You can’t control whether or not he’ll be a rapist, but you can try to instill a respect for women from an early age. Set up playdates with girls as often as boys (I need to find some boys for my girls to play with).
35
@34 huh? How does it stink of sexism? Since most rapists are men, it makes sense that to keep a man from becoming a rapist you raise him to be a man that won't rape. And since I don't want my son to rape... how can I raise him to know that forcing a woman to have sex (in whatever form that force might take) is wrong and that he shouldn't do it?
36
@33 Thank you - that's great advice. We are on with 1 and 3, the others I will definitely keep in mind as he ages.
37
@34: You're an idiot. If we don't change the conversation from "hey sluts, pull your skirts down if you don't want a dick in you" to "this is how to treat others and respect their wishes", rape will always be a problem. Feminism is not sexism.
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