Slog
News & ArtsMonday, July 30, 2012
Crime Re: Vote for a New Juvenile Justice Center, Vote Yes on King County Prop. 1
Posted by Charles Mudede on Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 12:24 PM
The fact of the matter is nothing in me or my heart could ever vote to build a juvenile detention center. It's not a question of arguments or reasoning; it's just I could not muster up the meanness to do it. In fact, if this is what democracy has to offer, voting to build things that incarcerate youth, then I want nothing to do with this democracy. It has shown itself to be morally bankrupt. And if you think it's not, if you think this is about being nutty radicals ("the extremists make much noise over the allegation that Prop 1 would 'build a new jail'") and has nothing to do with the state of this democracy (which you see as being so reasonable—"the new detention facility would actually have fewer beds than the current facility"), then you have missed the point: it's a matter of the heart, and that heart wants nothing to with the construction of a center that detains youth.
Even adult prisons, even this one with the great gardening program and all, are, in my eyes, nothing but big holes in our democracy.
1
But you already have a jail. A shitty jail.
Refusing to vote to build a better jail forces them to remain in a shitty jail. You are keeping your hands clean in this nebulous way at the expense of actual, suffering children.
You're a coward.
Refusing to vote to build a better jail forces them to remain in a shitty jail. You are keeping your hands clean in this nebulous way at the expense of actual, suffering children.
You're a coward.
2
It's cute how you're keeping kids in a substandard facility to serve some greater piece of ethics. Pretty much everything #1 said. What an asshole.
3
Setting aside the "jail" portion of the building, there are a number of other things that happen in the current building that need a home, including families going through dependency matters--because the parents are abusive, deep in drug addiction, or somethig else. Those people are goig through the worst times of their lives--they deserve a building where they're not at risk of getting shot when there's a gang fight in the lobby, or getting some unknown illness from drinking the brown water.
And the kids who are going through diversionary services with probation deserve the same things. As do the court employees who work to keep at-risk kids safe.
And the kids who are going through diversionary services with probation deserve the same things. As do the court employees who work to keep at-risk kids safe.
4
Can they build one of those Hannibal Lector rooms for Billy Chambers?
Golf ball in the mouth...whole thing..
Golf ball in the mouth...whole thing..
5
This reminds me of something Schmader once wrote, in jest, in response to something I can't recall: "Why do we fill our banks with money? Why can't we fill them with love?" It strikes me as a similar level of wishful thinking.
And I believe that wishful thinking is an important part of the human experience, but I do not believe it should guide real-world decisions.
And I believe that wishful thinking is an important part of the human experience, but I do not believe it should guide real-world decisions.
6
Good Afternoon Charles,
As you know I voted for Propositon 1. I believe there is need to replace the current deteriorating facility. I most certainly think it wasn't meanness that prompted me to vote for it. Compassion possibly but not meanness.
The larger questions I pose to you. Do you believe prisons, jails or juvenile detention centers are necessary in a free and civil society at all? Is rebuilding/replacing them from time to time necessary?
Young men (mostly) commit crimes. Sometimes violent and terrible ones. I only endorsed a replacement facility for them. I'm willing to pay a modest tax for that. Primarily what has failed, are these young men's parents. Not me or you or even society as much is to blame. I merely want a better facility for them. "Moral bankruptcy" of this Democracy is a bit of a stretch.
As you know I voted for Propositon 1. I believe there is need to replace the current deteriorating facility. I most certainly think it wasn't meanness that prompted me to vote for it. Compassion possibly but not meanness.
The larger questions I pose to you. Do you believe prisons, jails or juvenile detention centers are necessary in a free and civil society at all? Is rebuilding/replacing them from time to time necessary?
Young men (mostly) commit crimes. Sometimes violent and terrible ones. I only endorsed a replacement facility for them. I'm willing to pay a modest tax for that. Primarily what has failed, are these young men's parents. Not me or you or even society as much is to blame. I merely want a better facility for them. "Moral bankruptcy" of this Democracy is a bit of a stretch.
7
Charles, to get the depth of your message across you should really abstain from voting altogether. Leave your ballot blank but mail it in with a photo of Slavoj Žižek. That'll show them.
8
The previous commenters have made the point pretty well, but this is a silly argument. Putting aside the "matter of the heart" issue (isn't this exactly what we don't want people doing? Be fair, be logical.), it comes down to two things for me:
1. We either build a new facility or continue to house juveniles in the woefully inadequate one they're currently residing in; and
2. If we do build a new one, which seems inevitable eventually if not now, we either do it with money from the general fund (and have to cut other programs as a result) or from a dedicated, extra-budgetary revenue source like this property tax measure.
Personally, I'd rather these kids live somewhere that gives them a better shot of reforming and doesn't offend my concept of livable circumstances, and I'd rather do it in a way that allows us to continue funding our other obligations at least as fully as they currently are.
1. We either build a new facility or continue to house juveniles in the woefully inadequate one they're currently residing in; and
2. If we do build a new one, which seems inevitable eventually if not now, we either do it with money from the general fund (and have to cut other programs as a result) or from a dedicated, extra-budgetary revenue source like this property tax measure.
Personally, I'd rather these kids live somewhere that gives them a better shot of reforming and doesn't offend my concept of livable circumstances, and I'd rather do it in a way that allows us to continue funding our other obligations at least as fully as they currently are.
10
Letting juveniles rot in a dilapidated facility that looks and smells horrible seems a lot meaner than building a new facility.
11
I agree with you; incarcerating our criminal youths is a waste of money when Bengal tigers would die of boredom in Zoos, having nothing to eat but already slain fare.
12
Oh noes! I think I disagree with Charles on this one.
If only it were a pitbull prison. (Or maybe "dog" or "mindless beast" prison.)
If only it were a pitbull prison. (Or maybe "dog" or "mindless beast" prison.)
13
Yes, Charles, because NOT building a new jail will somehow MAGICALLY END ALL JAILING?
(No, it won't.)
(Conclusion?)
(Kids will continue to be jailed in a shitty jail instead of a not-shitty one.)
God, you're dumb sometimes.
(No, it won't.)
(Conclusion?)
(Kids will continue to be jailed in a shitty jail instead of a not-shitty one.)
God, you're dumb sometimes.
15
I think the point's being missed here with the fact that there will be fewer beds in the new jail. It will still have twice the number of beds as there are currently jailed youth. That's what bothers me about this project. A new detention facility will inevitably lead to it being used more which means there will be more youth in the jail.
16
@15 - WHY? Why would it _inevitably_ lead to that? The existing facility has three times as many beds as its average detention population. And yet the average number of detained youth has been going DOWN steadily for the last decade. Which is WHY they're able to build a smaller facility.
Your logic fails nearly as powerfully as Charle's philosophy.
Your logic fails nearly as powerfully as Charle's philosophy.
18
Aw, man, not again.
Is it that hard for the staff at The Stranger to remember that Charles has a condition that requires one hug every two hours?
Is it that hard for the staff at The Stranger to remember that Charles has a condition that requires one hug every two hours?
19
Really? As Ariel has pointed out, the jailed youth are disproportionately poor and non-white. I believe that voting No here is the most racist and classist thing one can do. It sends the message that we don't give a shit about our incarcerated youth - rot away in this hell hole.
There is absolutely no evidence that he rate of incarceration is tied to number of beds built. If that were true, King County would not be a National, NATIONAL, leader in reducing rates of youths behind bars. Screw that real progress though, much easier to take an ivory tower stance against the prison industrial complex. This almost makes ms want to stop reading the SLog.
There is absolutely no evidence that he rate of incarceration is tied to number of beds built. If that were true, King County would not be a National, NATIONAL, leader in reducing rates of youths behind bars. Screw that real progress though, much easier to take an ivory tower stance against the prison industrial complex. This almost makes ms want to stop reading the SLog.
21
Right back at you "Fairness Doctrine" you feel ok about locking up kids as long as its a cushy lockup. The euphemisms our Democratic Party establishment was laying down about this new "Justice Center" make it sound so good kids will be breaking the law just to get in. The fact of the matter is however shiny the building may be It's a meat grinder where peoples lives are destroyed forever. All the statistics say youth locked up there will be back and then they will be in prison, and they will never be able to get a job and wind up back in prison. You wanna get real, the thing might as well come with gas chambers. The racial statistics show African Americans and Latinos in Juvie at hugely disproportionate rates. You either believe some races are inherently inferior or you believe that our "justice" system is injust. There are only two options. The building might as well suck, sorta like the scared straight program, you don't wanna come back here kids. Can we not come up with something better to do with say half that money, just $100mil spent on youth could do a lot. No I am not saying open the doors of all the prisons right now but we already have more than any other nation on Earth, so give little old me a say on whether we get a new prison or not, I am going to vote for not. We build them and we fill them. Are we as Americans inherently criminal or do other nations just build less prisons?
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