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News & ArtsFriday, September 14, 2012
Panic / Health / Horrors / Oh, You Kids! / Chow / ??!! / Religion Little Smokies
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 8:20 AM
So, yeah, there I was, innocently flipping through yesterday's NYT, just catching up on the Dead Tree News, when I encountered this photo. No disrespect to anyone's religious beliefs... but... um... ugh.
3
I've become accustomed to the idea that certain people must have their religious beliefs. Logic won't do a damn bit of good. Mentioning that biblical rules and regulations were conceived during the Bronze Age - when people (those who had the time or capacity to think) thought the Earth was the center of the universe. All that falls on deaf ears because they need both that feeling of belonging and something that helps explain the explainable. But people who insist on real orthodoxy in this day and age? It has to be brainwashing from childhood, right?
I live in an area where there is a sizable Hasidic community. I try to be respectful and inoffensive. Does my mere presence cause offense? - because boy...are they ever unfriendly.
I second that Ugh.
I live in an area where there is a sizable Hasidic community. I try to be respectful and inoffensive. Does my mere presence cause offense? - because boy...are they ever unfriendly.
I second that Ugh.
5
Yeah, I think we can all agree in the light of advancements in scientific understanding in the last two hundred years that some traditions may safely and respectfully be left behind.
8
Don't any jews or muslims ever ask, "Why does god want part of my cock? Why not part of my earlobe? Or the tip of my baby toe or something? Why my cock?"
11
I read the first couple paragraphs of the story yesterday and... well... yeah, I just... Do they do background checks on Mohels?
12
Hey, sometimes you just have to suck on the penis of an infant.
You know, for god. Because the omnipotent and all powerful creator of all things cannot be happy unless old men are sucking on infant's penises, right?
@3 You should read about some of the ultra-orthodox Jews in Israel. They are essentially trying to drag their country back into the stone age by slowly taking over the cities, and demanding (and receiving) tons of government money to do so. Kind of reminds you of the good old U S of A.
You know, for god. Because the omnipotent and all powerful creator of all things cannot be happy unless old men are sucking on infant's penises, right?
@3 You should read about some of the ultra-orthodox Jews in Israel. They are essentially trying to drag their country back into the stone age by slowly taking over the cities, and demanding (and receiving) tons of government money to do so. Kind of reminds you of the good old U S of A.
14
For a moment, ignore the breathtaking ick factor and consider that this old man has had decades to build up immunity to all manner of pathogens, but the baby is barely out of the womb. Exposing the infant to so much bacteria is incredibly dangerous. Do these people know nothing about microbiology?
17
@14 - There's also the 11 baby boys in New York City who contracted herpes last year. This isn't a theoretical risk. This is actual dead babies.
18
The only thing that sets jews above christians and muslims is that they don't try to convert or kill non-jews. They don't want you. I find that at least somewhat refreshing. If they wanna suck baby penis, more power to them. Its obviously disgusting, but no more than using your hands.
19
"No disrespect to anyone's religious beliefs... "
Dan, why would you say such a stupid thing?
Respect is something that is earned, not given away.
Surely giving respect to superstition is a nonsensical irresponsible attitude.
Calling superstition religion doesn't make it not superstition.
Dan, why would you say such a stupid thing?
Respect is something that is earned, not given away.
Surely giving respect to superstition is a nonsensical irresponsible attitude.
Calling superstition religion doesn't make it not superstition.
20
thanks for revitalizing my dislike of your small minded, arrogant persona.
you're exactly as polarizing, offensive, and non-inclusive as the people you rally against.
you're exactly as polarizing, offensive, and non-inclusive as the people you rally against.
22
Judaism is almost - almost - bearable because I believe it's one of the more philosophical, scholarly religions. But this is definitely one of the things that continues to make religion - any religion - a no-go for me.
23
@19 and Dan - to paraphrase something Ricky Gervais tweeted the other day: "You have the right to believe whatever you want, but there is no right to have that belief respected".
24
I respect religions when they do respectful things. Which is, unfortunately far to seldom.
Why we think religion should always be respected is beyond me. Somebody care to explain it to me?
Why we think religion should always be respected is beyond me. Somebody care to explain it to me?
25
Herpes simplex is incredibly deadly to newborns, especially introduced directly into the bloodstream. The virus ravages the central nervous system, the brain swells, and death. And remember, we're talking about HSV type I, the garden-variety cold sore virus, which is endemic in the adult population.
I'm not that knowledgeable about the religious ritual, but I'm hoping that that particular practice is not universal across all branches of Judaism. I'd like to think some of them use a bit of cotton with peroxide, instead.
I'm not that knowledgeable about the religious ritual, but I'm hoping that that particular practice is not universal across all branches of Judaism. I'd like to think some of them use a bit of cotton with peroxide, instead.
26
At first glance, it seems amazing that religions are so obsessed with your sexuality. Then it just makes sense: it's the perfect lever for manipulating us. We're insecure, illogical, and willing to do nearly anything for the right cock or pussy. What power-hungry maniac wouldn't want a piece of that?
28
If you want to criticise other people's religions, why not do it in a way that'd actually make them want to think about it instead of getting extremely defensive?
Talking about the commentors, not Dan. Well at least you guys seem pretty evenly mad at every religion.
Talking about the commentors, not Dan. Well at least you guys seem pretty evenly mad at every religion.
29
“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” -Richard Dawkins
When I first read this quote, I understood all of the these criticisms against God except for the accusation of sadomasochism. Now, I get it.
When I first read this quote, I understood all of the these criticisms against God except for the accusation of sadomasochism. Now, I get it.
30
@23:
This is why I can't help but hate religion: not only does it attempt to assert power over all people with lies and graft, it also demands to be respected for it. Talk about special rights.
Believe whatever you want, but as soon as you put it in the public sphere, it deserves to be mocked and judged just like every other incredibly stupid and destructive idea.
This is why I can't help but hate religion: not only does it attempt to assert power over all people with lies and graft, it also demands to be respected for it. Talk about special rights.
Believe whatever you want, but as soon as you put it in the public sphere, it deserves to be mocked and judged just like every other incredibly stupid and destructive idea.
31
@23 -- ain't that the truth.
You have the freedom of religion, we have the freedom to express concerns about your actions. And this action causes me some concern.
You have the freedom of religion, we have the freedom to express concerns about your actions. And this action causes me some concern.
32
Because of this "tradition" many children have been given herpes, which has killed at least two children and led some others to brain damage.
Religion is pure evil through and through.
Religion is pure evil through and through.
33
I don't think this should count as a religious tradition. It's crossed the line into medical quackery. There is some medical evidence for the health benefits of circumcision, but it will be a cold day in hell when there is any evidence that sucking on the blood of a baby is a good idea.
34
Disagree with the circumcision. Don't have a problem with the mouth use in that I think it's perverted...but a lot of these completely well meaning Rabbis with old-timey views still have the herpes!
35
re: 'respect'
Danny finds this icky.
He mocks it.
Very '10 year old'.....
When others find his practices icky he accuses them of being narrow minded haters and bigots.
Rubber. Glue.
Danny believes homosexuality is normal. Natural. Innate.
"You have the right to believe whatever you want,
but there is no right to have that belief respected".
Danny finds this icky.
He mocks it.
Very '10 year old'.....
When others find his practices icky he accuses them of being narrow minded haters and bigots.
Rubber. Glue.
Danny believes homosexuality is normal. Natural. Innate.
"You have the right to believe whatever you want,
but there is no right to have that belief respected".
36
32
Hey Genius.
How many million people have been infected and killed, just by AIDS, through homosexual behavior?
How many babies have been infected by the careless selfish behavior of the infected adults in their lives?
Tens of Thousands.....
Homosexuality must be pure evil through and through.
Right?
Hey Genius.
How many million people have been infected and killed, just by AIDS, through homosexual behavior?
How many babies have been infected by the careless selfish behavior of the infected adults in their lives?
Tens of Thousands.....
Homosexuality must be pure evil through and through.
Right?
37
Yes, disrespect. You're allowed to have stupid ideas, but we sure as hell get to call you on them. And while you may have the right to freedom of your own religious beliefs, what about the kid? Does he believe in this? Doesn't he have the right NOT to be subjected to dangerous, idiotic practices than endanger his health and well being? If he wants to get circumcised and sucked by an old man, he can choose to do it when he's eighteen. Until then, leave him the fuck alone.
38
OK.. WTF!? This is a THING? The adults in this image are insane. Seriously.. you must have a mental illness to think "Hey, I think I'll let this 70'ish year old man take a scalpel to my 8 DAY OLD baby boy's junk - THEN put the bleeding penis in his mouth to suck on it?" This isn't the bronze age. We, as a people, are aware. We have access to mountains of data, and ready access to professionals who have dedicated their lives to understanding such complex interactions of bacteria, and how virus transmission is increased with direct blood contact. I'm just flabbergasted that this is legal to do to a child. .. All religions, due to the fact that they deny scientific theory, are a cancer to progress and civil society. If we can stop the indoctrination of lies and fear, their false god(s) will die with those who's inquisitive eyes have been blinded.
39
14 et al
Microbiology.
Right......
From the King County Public Heath site:
SYPHILIS IS BACK
Syphilis is a sexually transmitted disease (STD) caused by a type of bacteria called Treponema pallidum.
Syphilis was almost eliminated in gay and bi men in King County in the early 1990s.
Syphilis has made an astounding comeback in Seattle and King County -- an 82 percent increase from 2009 to 2010, with 9 out of 10 cases showing up in gay men.
During the first three months of 2011 syphilis cases are double what they were this time last year.
did you catch that?
SYPHILIS IS BACK!!
with 9 out of 10 cases showing up in gay men.
Do these faggots know nothing about microbiology?
Microbiology.
Right......
From the King County Public Heath site:
SYPHILIS IS BACK
Syphilis is a sexually transmitted disease (STD) caused by a type of bacteria called Treponema pallidum.
Syphilis was almost eliminated in gay and bi men in King County in the early 1990s.
Syphilis has made an astounding comeback in Seattle and King County -- an 82 percent increase from 2009 to 2010, with 9 out of 10 cases showing up in gay men.
During the first three months of 2011 syphilis cases are double what they were this time last year.
did you catch that?
SYPHILIS IS BACK!!
with 9 out of 10 cases showing up in gay men.
Do these faggots know nothing about microbiology?
41
So, yeah, there I was, innocently flipping through yesterday's NYT, just catching up on the Dead Tree News, when I encountered this photo.
Two homosexuals kissing.
On the mouth.
No disrespect to anyone's beliefs... but... um... ugh.
Two homosexuals kissing.
On the mouth.
No disrespect to anyone's beliefs... but... um... ugh.
42
@38:
He doesn't put his mouth on the penis, he uses something like a straw.
And at the people worried about herpes:
Since his mouth isn't touching the penis, and he is sucking, not blowing through the straw, I doubt he gives the children herpes. It's more likely children get herpes from their parents.
He doesn't put his mouth on the penis, he uses something like a straw.
And at the people worried about herpes:
Since his mouth isn't touching the penis, and he is sucking, not blowing through the straw, I doubt he gives the children herpes. It's more likely children get herpes from their parents.
43
DEAR GOD. My son had a bris and this most definitely DID NOT HAPPEN. I mean, we hired a woman who was a mohel but also a pediatrician and a urologist, so maybe science prevailed over freaky deaky Jewish tradition. I guess now I have to ask my mom if any of my brothers (circumcised by more traditional mohels) had this done to them.... eek.
45
ick factor aside...you gotta love the expressions on the other men present, especially the one on the far left (rabbi?). Even they seem to find this more than a little odd.
46
@42--a lot of mohels use the straw, as you said. But a very small number of them absolutely do perform "direct oral suctioning" without the use of a straw, and babies have died from it. http://gothamist.com/2012/06/07/circumci…
47
Dear troll:
Thanks for all of your insightful arguments - your effort has really paid off. We all see the light now. Keep up the good work - your time is being well spent. Most trolls just rant and rave because they're sad and lonely - but not you. You make a difference!
Thanks for all of your insightful arguments - your effort has really paid off. We all see the light now. Keep up the good work - your time is being well spent. Most trolls just rant and rave because they're sad and lonely - but not you. You make a difference!
48
@42 .. actually.. yes, I believe he did. As the caption of the New York Times photojournalist, Mr Nagle said he did.
@46, thank you.. in addition.. I'd add this like my boyfriend pointed out.. this is from 2005.. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/26/nyregi…
@46, thank you.. in addition.. I'd add this like my boyfriend pointed out.. this is from 2005.. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/26/nyregi…
54
@50 - And I've heard they use the blood of Christian babies in their dark rituals. Also, they have horns.
55
Just putting it out there that a lot of people who share mostly similar religious beliefs with these guys (actually MOST people who share religious beliefs with these guys) feel the same way as you, Dan. Regardless of whether you love or hate religion in general, it's important to remember that every religious tradition has varying degrees of insanity.
56
49
very true.
but irrelevant to Danny.
he narrows in on the most extreme atypical outrageous members of a group then extrapolates their behavior to justify condemning an entire class of people.
It's what Bigots do.
The only question is, does Danny do it out of vicious maliciousness or wallowing ignorance.
very true.
but irrelevant to Danny.
he narrows in on the most extreme atypical outrageous members of a group then extrapolates their behavior to justify condemning an entire class of people.
It's what Bigots do.
The only question is, does Danny do it out of vicious maliciousness or wallowing ignorance.
57
Circumcision is barbaric whether it's done with a sharpened shell and a quick suck, or in a hospital with modern equipment and procedures. It has NO health benefits that can't be achieved without mutilating babies' penises. If you want to get your foreskin chopped off as an adult, do it, but infant circumcision is simply wrong and should be illegal.
58
Anonymous angry man, I think Dan frequently bashes religion out of bitterness and concern for people harmed by extremism. You should be able to understand that, the bitterness part anyway. You are not going to convince anybody to hate him with your spastic rage, so please stop posting so frequently.
59
It may be traditional, but it sure ain't safe. It's not mentioned in the Torah. And I somehow doubt that Abraham would have been flexible enough at 100 years old to do it on himself. The irrationality of Hasidim never ceases to amaze me.
@42 - if you read the relevant article in the Times, you'd know that he is, in fact, putting his mouth on that baby. This practice is limited to the Ultra-Orthodox, since every other grade of Judaism is sane enough to see what a terrible idea it is, but they still do it - and they're hopping mad that the city government is taking the remarkably mild step of trying to make them have the parents sign a consent form warning them about the risks.
@42 - if you read the relevant article in the Times, you'd know that he is, in fact, putting his mouth on that baby. This practice is limited to the Ultra-Orthodox, since every other grade of Judaism is sane enough to see what a terrible idea it is, but they still do it - and they're hopping mad that the city government is taking the remarkably mild step of trying to make them have the parents sign a consent form warning them about the risks.
60
If they were circumcising women's clitori there would be louder rumbles than what is happening in Cairo. Religious beliefs? Hell! No wonder Jews, Muslims, and (many) Americans are such angry tribes.
61
If he said an invisible pink unicorn told him to do that, he'd be arrested. Why is reality so different?
62
um, folks, unless I am mistaken, the moyle at a bris (or one of the old ladies witnessing) takes a mouthful of wine and THEN sucks the baby. It is a form of sterilization - alcohol and sugar. there WAS a reason for it, but the question remains - what reason now except devotion to tradition?
63
@18: "The only thing that sets jews above christians and muslims is that they don't try to convert or kill non-jews"
Tell that to the Christians and Muslims in Palestine.
Tell that to the Christians and Muslims in Palestine.
64
@42: "And at the people worried about herpes:"
Based on actual contracted cases of herpes from the mohel's saliva touching the bloody wound, you're a fucking idiot.
Based on actual contracted cases of herpes from the mohel's saliva touching the bloody wound, you're a fucking idiot.
65
My dad's been a rabbi for almost 40 years, and has never ever seen this or heard it suggested as a thing that should happen. This is not any kind of common Jewish tradition.
66
Trying to decide whether to puke now or later. I can't wait for the "freedom of religion" apologists to square the circle on this practise.
67
Not entirely on point maybe, but it does speak to the relevance of religious freedom:
http://vimeo.com/23723609
http://vimeo.com/23723609
69
The baby is crying and looks miserable. I could never do that to my baby without a really good reason. Debunked bronze aged myths need not apply.
71
@40:
Circumcision has no health benefits that wouldn't be just as applicable to chopping off the kid's ears. There is no other part of the body that is preemptively cut off just in case it MIGHT cause a problem later on. Advocating the amputation of a healthy body part, without any indication that that particular part of that particular person is likely to cause serious problems later on, is a blatant violation of the Hippocratic Oath.
Circumcision has no health benefits that wouldn't be just as applicable to chopping off the kid's ears. There is no other part of the body that is preemptively cut off just in case it MIGHT cause a problem later on. Advocating the amputation of a healthy body part, without any indication that that particular part of that particular person is likely to cause serious problems later on, is a blatant violation of the Hippocratic Oath.
72
So fucking gross. I've never understood why it's considered so disrespectful to criticize people for their religious beliefs or these type of crazy practices, while it's totally acceptable to call someone out for having dumb political beliefs, the wrong parenting philosophies, etc. Anyone who sucks on a baby's penis, or stands idly by while something like this happens, deserves to at least be ridiculed, if not locked up.
73
You know, back in the day, bigots used to point to pictures of gay men in leather harnesses and feather boas at Pride and say "Look at how disgusting gay people are."
It didn't matter to them that the pictures were out of their cultural context, or that they didn't represent the vast majority of gay people. They seemed to support an old, ugly slander against gay people, so bigots were happy to pass them around.
I don't think that it's a bad thing to highlight the abuses of religions. But Dan, in light of thousands of years of blood libel, I think it's irresponsible and borderline bigoted to post this as an example of how those icky Jews are. It's taken out of its cultural context, and it doesn't represent the vast majority of Jews (as others noted, this is not a common tradition). Besides, as still others have noted, Jews aren't out to convert you, take over the country, or pass laws restricting your rights. Nor are Jews a monolith, like the Catholic Church, or a political power, like Evangelicals.
You're basically posting another example of a very old, very ugly slander about a minority group.
Please think about that.
It didn't matter to them that the pictures were out of their cultural context, or that they didn't represent the vast majority of gay people. They seemed to support an old, ugly slander against gay people, so bigots were happy to pass them around.
I don't think that it's a bad thing to highlight the abuses of religions. But Dan, in light of thousands of years of blood libel, I think it's irresponsible and borderline bigoted to post this as an example of how those icky Jews are. It's taken out of its cultural context, and it doesn't represent the vast majority of Jews (as others noted, this is not a common tradition). Besides, as still others have noted, Jews aren't out to convert you, take over the country, or pass laws restricting your rights. Nor are Jews a monolith, like the Catholic Church, or a political power, like Evangelicals.
You're basically posting another example of a very old, very ugly slander about a minority group.
Please think about that.
75
Dan, would you be OK with it if it was a baby rabbi doing the circumcision instead of a old-guy rabbi? Age difference, y'know.
77
71
you are an idiot.
and wrong about the health benefits of circumcision.
asymptomatic wisdom teeth are removed to prevent problems later.
when hired killers murder perfectly good babies does that violate the Hypocritic Oaf?
PS....you are an idiot.
you are an idiot.
and wrong about the health benefits of circumcision.
asymptomatic wisdom teeth are removed to prevent problems later.
when hired killers murder perfectly good babies does that violate the Hypocritic Oaf?
PS....you are an idiot.
81
To quote the eminent Jello Biafra: "ALL RELIGIONS SUCK! ALL RELIGIONS MAKE ME WANT TO THROW UP! THEY MAKE ME SICK THEY MAKE ME SICK THEY MAKE ME SICK!"
82
@80 - of course he isn't. But 2000 years of history gives his post a context that makes it very ugly, and "but I didn't mean it that way" doesn't make it okay.
83
For the benefit of people who don't read unregistered posts, this is what #73 said:
You know, back in the day, bigots used to point to pictures of gay men in leather harnesses and feather boas at Pride and say "Look at how disgusting gay people are."
It didn't matter to them that the pictures were out of their cultural context, or that they didn't represent the vast majority of gay people. They seemed to support an old, ugly slander against gay people, so bigots were happy to pass them around.
I don't think that it's a bad thing to highlight the abuses of religions. But Dan, in light of thousands of years of blood libel, I think it's irresponsible and borderline bigoted to post this as an example of how those icky Jews are. It's taken out of its cultural context, and it doesn't represent the vast majority of Jews (as others noted, this is not a common tradition). Besides, as still others have noted, Jews aren't out to convert you, take over the country, or pass laws restricting your rights. Nor are Jews a monolith, like the Catholic Church, or a political power, like Evangelicals.
You're basically posting another example of a very old, very ugly slander about a minority group.
Please think about that.
==========
I'm going to add a few more points:
* this practice isn't any more sexual than handling a baby's penis when you clean it during a diaper change is sexual. I suppose either _could_ be, but in general, neither is.
* this practice is rare among Jews. It started as a health measure, back in the days before sterile blades and dressings, when getting a little blood to flow out of the wound reduced the odds of infection. Most modern Jews either skip the sucking, or use a sterile glass tube. But Judaism is into tradition, and some very traditional groups still do it.
* whether herpes has actually been transmitted to babies this way or not is controversial. Babies sometimes pick up herpes from their moms, or at the hospital, and I've heard it claimed that the one moyel who was accused of spreading herpes was tested and proved to be negative.
and to 76: because it is our role on earth to complete creation, and this act is symbolic of our role.
More...
You know, back in the day, bigots used to point to pictures of gay men in leather harnesses and feather boas at Pride and say "Look at how disgusting gay people are."
It didn't matter to them that the pictures were out of their cultural context, or that they didn't represent the vast majority of gay people. They seemed to support an old, ugly slander against gay people, so bigots were happy to pass them around.
I don't think that it's a bad thing to highlight the abuses of religions. But Dan, in light of thousands of years of blood libel, I think it's irresponsible and borderline bigoted to post this as an example of how those icky Jews are. It's taken out of its cultural context, and it doesn't represent the vast majority of Jews (as others noted, this is not a common tradition). Besides, as still others have noted, Jews aren't out to convert you, take over the country, or pass laws restricting your rights. Nor are Jews a monolith, like the Catholic Church, or a political power, like Evangelicals.
You're basically posting another example of a very old, very ugly slander about a minority group.
Please think about that.
==========
I'm going to add a few more points:
* this practice isn't any more sexual than handling a baby's penis when you clean it during a diaper change is sexual. I suppose either _could_ be, but in general, neither is.
* this practice is rare among Jews. It started as a health measure, back in the days before sterile blades and dressings, when getting a little blood to flow out of the wound reduced the odds of infection. Most modern Jews either skip the sucking, or use a sterile glass tube. But Judaism is into tradition, and some very traditional groups still do it.
* whether herpes has actually been transmitted to babies this way or not is controversial. Babies sometimes pick up herpes from their moms, or at the hospital, and I've heard it claimed that the one moyel who was accused of spreading herpes was tested and proved to be negative.
and to 76: because it is our role on earth to complete creation, and this act is symbolic of our role.
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