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Tuesday, December 11, 2012

Mass Shooting at Portland Mall—At Least Two People Dead

Posted by on Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 5:09 PM

8:30 pm— The Clackamas police spokesperson says they have tentatively identified the shooter, but will not say any more until they're 100 percent sure of his identity. He is confirmed dead, and besides the two other victims, only one person was reported as sent to the hospital—the woman we spoke of earlier. There was no other significant information released, and the next press conference is not scheduled until tomorrow. Our thoughts and best wishes go out to the families of the victims.

6:30pm—Police report that there were no shots fired by law enforcement today at the mall. The shooter appears to have died of a self-inflicted wound.

Some good news. KPTV spoke with staff at Oregon Health Sciences University hospital, who said that the woman seriously injured in today's shooting is recovering from her injuries. She did not require surgery and is awake and talking, the station reports. The woman is about 18 years old.

The police are almost finished sweeping through the mall to find and release shoppers and workers who remain holed-up there.

5:55pm— "I hope this tragedy doesn't keep you away from the mall!" says Mall Santa, interviewed by KGW.

Picture_19.png

Ugh.

5:33pm— At a press conference just now, the sheriff confirmed that the "neutralized" shooter is dead. It's unclear how he was killed, whether the wound is self-inflicted or not.

The shooter killed two people and seriously injured at least one more.

5:30pm—KATU just interviewed a woman who works at Zale's in the mall who burst into tears describing the death of the "nice man who ran the kiosk just outside the store." It's rare to find a moment of real humanity amid the live coverage, which compiles interviews with witnesses who are clearly in shock.

This all brings to mind this breakdown of media coverage of mass shootings. With shootings happening so often, they've become their own media cycle.

4:49pm—Police at a press conference at the mall say the "shooter has been neutralized." It's not clear whether the shooter has been killed or just taken into custody. The police are getting conflicting reports of one shooter versus two shooters, but say that no shooting is occurring any more and one shooter, at least, is "neutralized." Contrary to previous reports confirming two people dead in the shooting, the police at the most recent briefing confirmed only one death.

Police are still trying to get everyone out of the mall. Some groups of employees or mall-goers have locked themselves in rooms and have yet to be found.

Governor Kitzhaber has a brief statement on the shooting: "My thoughts and prayers are with the victims. I have directed state police to make any and all resources available to local law enforcement."

The next press briefing is scheduled for 5:30pm. According to PDX commute, the Green Line is running again.

We seem to have entered the sad point of time where discussion of mass shootings devolves into discussions of traffic problems caused by mass shootings.

Picture_18.png

4:30 pm— Over the police scanner, cops report that they found 20 people hiding in a storeroom, who will be lead to safety. Sounds like police from numerous jurisdictions are trying to evacuate the mall. The majority of the upper and lower levels of the mall have been cleared.

Picture_2.png

Original post:
At 3:20 pm today, someone fired dozens of shots in the food court at Clackamas Town Center, according to numerous news reports. At least 60 shots appear to have been fired.

KATU news, which is streaming coverage of the shooting, quotes a witness who saw "a bunch of people were screaming and running by and kind of in a panic and they were yelling that there was a shooting." The station is reporting that up to seven people have been shot and retweeted this photo of people hiding inside the mall.

Police have reported that two people are confirmed dead. It's unclear whether the shooter (or shooters) is still on the loose. Reports indicate that the shooter was a single white male teenager wearing a hockey mask, body armor, and bearing an assault rifle, but that's unconfirmed.

Police and emergency services have surrounded the mall and have blocked every entrance. Stay away from the area if you can—the I-205 on-ramp near the mall is closed and the Green Line is ending its line at Fuller Street, rather than Clackamas Town Center.

On Twitter, Matt Bors pointed out this number: 36 days since America's last mass shooting.

Updates as soon we have them.

 

Comments (69) RSS

Oldest First Unregistered On Registered On Add a comment
Cato the Younger Younger 1
The holiday shopping season will kill ya!
Posted by Cato the Younger Younger on December 11, 2012 at 5:15 PM · Report this
Karlheinz Arschbomber 2
Led to freedom, not 'lead'.

And freedom is what it's all about there, freedom to carry lethal weapons. Yee Haaaaahhh!
Posted by Karlheinz Arschbomber http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arschbombe on December 11, 2012 at 5:16 PM · Report this
3
in france germany sweden canada japan and about 30 other nations, with effective gun limits, gun controls, registration, and just far fewer guns --see they don't have a bunch of stupid moronic crazy gun owning gun lovers like we are cursed with here -- this shit just does not happen. it does not happen anywhere near the frequency it happens here. also not happening over in yoorupe: soccer stars do not go crazy and gunshoot their baby momma then themselves. and they do not have entire neighborhoods plagued by gun violence.

what they really do not have is a bunch of gun owning gun defenders who crazily think you can have a few hundred million guns all over, and be safe.

once again, no NRA owners stopped this shooter. nope, they almost never do. becuase obviously, guns do not make us safe, they make us unsafe. why do you think the earp bros. banned guns in town? they were more civilized than we are today.

and the second amendment. don't get me started. you have to admit, we can ban you and I from owning nukes, yet clearly nukes are "arms" are they not? well then, it lets the government ban classes of arms. so it would let the govt. ban classes of handguns, private ownership of assault rifles etc., though perhaps it would require govt. to allow highly limited and highly licensed and regulated gun ownership. like in canada or england or other sane places without this god damend crazy violence fostered and enabled by the nra and the gun owners we got here.
seriously, go find me all the massacres at malls in france and let's do a side by side comparison or else gun owners just shut the fuck up and admit you are wrong, big time.
Posted by it's gun owners' fault on December 11, 2012 at 5:20 PM · Report this
4
This is in my home town- I have been to this mall a hundred times. Other locals are shocked- this is a very quiet, chill neighborhood, nothing exceptional about the mall itself.
Posted by 8ters2the<- on December 11, 2012 at 5:25 PM · Report this
disintegrator 5
@1: Really? Fuck you.
Posted by disintegrator on December 11, 2012 at 5:34 PM · Report this
6
I'm surprised the opportunists at the Stranger aren't already "Live-Slogging" it.
Posted by Stranger'sWorstNightmare on December 11, 2012 at 6:00 PM · Report this
dnt trust me 7
@5
Now now, Cato is a faithful and loving member of the Slog community. If what she says in poor taste, it's only a mere reflection of the often poor taste that is exhibited by The Stranger. So f you two could kiss and make up, I would be oh so sloggy giddy.
Posted by dnt trust me on December 11, 2012 at 6:05 PM · Report this
Ipso Facto 8
Goddammit.

@3 nailed it.
Posted by Ipso Facto http://therealnews.com on December 11, 2012 at 6:06 PM · Report this
9
Wait, how is 2 dead and one injured a mass shooting?
Posted by OverBlown on December 11, 2012 at 6:07 PM · Report this
Ipso Facto 10
"Only" two people killed this time. And that's the good news.

Can we please take our country back from the gun fetishists?
Posted by Ipso Facto http://therealnews.com on December 11, 2012 at 6:09 PM · Report this
Fnarf 11
Slog commenter "paulus" on Facebook: "guns don't kill people, gun owners kill people".
Posted by Fnarf http://www.facebook.com/fnarf on December 11, 2012 at 6:23 PM · Report this
Lissa 12
Jesus Christ, those poor people!
Posted by Lissa on December 11, 2012 at 6:24 PM · Report this
13
Yanks never grow tired of this shit. No shooting will ever be the one that results in any positive change or reduction of gun fatalities, because in the minds of people who use guns for purposes other than for hunting game or for security in rural areas, American freedom will perish. Barf.

The only conversation Americans are willing to have about guns is "how long until the next shooting?"
Posted by sick of your psycho shitbags on December 11, 2012 at 6:34 PM · Report this
DavidC 14
"Now is not the time to talk about gun control"
Posted by DavidC http://members.shaw.ca/karenanddavid/ on December 11, 2012 at 6:34 PM · Report this
Cato the Younger Younger 15
@5, and your retort was from 5th grade. But then most of your retorts on Slog are from 5th grade.

You should go back and finish your homework sonny.
Posted by Cato the Younger Younger on December 11, 2012 at 6:37 PM · Report this
Cato the Younger Younger 16
But seriously gang..we were a little shy on people being trampled to death on Black Friday...this must be the NRA's way of making up for the lower than usual body count for the holidays.
Posted by Cato the Younger Younger on December 11, 2012 at 6:39 PM · Report this
mikethehammer 17
@9,

60 shots fired, according to the report. That'll qualify as a mass shooting in my book.
Posted by mikethehammer on December 11, 2012 at 6:39 PM · Report this
emor 18
@1, 15, 16

Ugh.
Posted by emor on December 11, 2012 at 6:41 PM · Report this
19
Slog breaking news coverage lol
Posted by ian on December 11, 2012 at 6:44 PM · Report this
20
@17,

Ah, I guess that's a fair way to interpret that. I always figured the "mass" in "mass shooting" meant "massive amounts of casualties" and not "massive amounts of ammunition spent".
Posted by OverBlown on December 11, 2012 at 6:51 PM · Report this
21
@9 fuck you all to hell asshole. this is exactly the kind of stoopid moronic drivel espoused by the gun loving gun owners who are to b lame. let me work it through your god damned stupid skull.

shooting: a gerund, also a noun, refers to the act of shooting a gun.
therefore shooting your gun off spraying a crowd and causing a few hundred to flee in panic you asshole moron, is a fucking mass shooting. he shot and even aimed at masses of people you stupid dipshit.

okay, now that you have the explanation, admit you were wrong and it's morons like you that are enabling this carnage because guns don't make us safe, word quibbling a bout guns the way the gun ownbers loooooove to do doesn't make us safe, and it will only be when we get rid of a few hundred fucking mllion guns we got all over that we will be safe... and @20 you're a stupid douchebag too. and really assholes, if we were more careful and said "ATTEMPTED mass shooting" you would not really give a shit would you so stop your god damning fucking posing bullshit. it's people like you who make us unsafe. just fucking shut the fuck up.
Posted by 3 again -- shaddup on December 11, 2012 at 7:01 PM · Report this
Lew Siffer 22
Other countries may not have as many shootings, but Anders Breivik was no slouch. Crazy lone wolf is rarely preventable.
Posted by Lew Siffer on December 11, 2012 at 7:08 PM · Report this
23
I'll say it again: drag in the nearest NRA members by the ears and make them clean up the crime scene. Give them mops and make them clean up the blood and urine and excrement; make them haul out the dead weight of the victims to the paddy wagon.
Posted by DisorganizedReligion on December 11, 2012 at 7:22 PM · Report this
The Third Rail 24
How long before the first claims that if guns were illegal he just would have gone in and started killing people with a knife. Or, GASP, a baseball bat! And you don't see anyone trying to ban THOSE. Oh, and cars kill way more people than guns so why don't we ban cars too! And you know how many people die from heart disease? You gonna ban soda too? Oh, wait, what? They kind of did that in New York? Uh... what were we talking about again?
Posted by The Third Rail on December 11, 2012 at 7:25 PM · Report this
25
@21,

Haha, guess the headline isn't the only thing overblown. Herpaderp much?

9, 20, and this post are the same person btw. I'm no gun nut, I just had an honest (though admittedly snarky) inquiry about the phrase. Never mind how you think two comments on an alt weekly's blog "contribute to enabling this carnage" and "make us all unsafe".

Not that I could give a shit about this shooting anyway (plenty more horrific things happen on a daily basis, I should care just because it's sorta-kinda-nearby-moreso-than-other-tragedies-but-not-really?). Or that I give a shit about aiding you in magically making all the guns in the world disappear thereby "making us all safe" somehow (because really, there aren't any other dangers facing us).

Autist/troll fight....GO!
Posted by OverBlown on December 11, 2012 at 7:30 PM · Report this
dnt trust me 26
@18, brilliant. Do you remember Cato's previous avatar? To put it simply, it was much dorkier than the current one.
Posted by dnt trust me on December 11, 2012 at 7:36 PM · Report this
Cascadian Bacon 27
OH WOW!

Another shooting in a gun free zone.

Dow did that happen? Didn't the murder know he was not supposed to bring guns into the mall.

Hurry, let's exploit this tragedy for political means.

@23
I have moves more bodies than you will ever see so spare me your righteous indignation.
Posted by Cascadian Bacon on December 11, 2012 at 7:49 PM · Report this
Cascadian Bacon 28
OH WOW!

Another shooting in a gun free zone.

How did that happen? Didn't the murder know he was not supposed to bring guns into the mall.

Hurry, let's exploit this tragedy for political means.

@23
I have moves more bodies than you will ever see so spare me your righteous indignation.
Posted by Cascadian Bacon on December 11, 2012 at 7:49 PM · Report this
29
So lets say the guy bought his gun legally, how do we stop something like this? Seems best way is to ramp up the mental health facilities in this country.
Posted by Seattle14 on December 11, 2012 at 8:06 PM · Report this
mikethehammer 30
@27, 28,

No way! I guarantee I've seen WAY more bodies than you've moves any day! Fuckin' idiot.
Posted by mikethehammer on December 11, 2012 at 8:14 PM · Report this
31
@29 How do we stop it? How do we stop it? blah blah blah. Stop it? The gun nuts are so in control that our federal and state and local governments won't even run public service announcements on the risks of gun ownership or cautioning people to be concerned about friends and family with unusual emotional fluctuations who own a lot of guns. Add those two to my previous list of 10 reasonable policy responses and things we could do for any other health threat that we are not allowed to do in the case of guns because the gun nuts will not allow even a discussion. But screw them, if they want guns with no regulation, control, or warnings, then they have to accept this is the logical consequence of their choice and, hopefully, critics will keep pointing it out.

And, yes, Seattle14, better mental health support in our medical system would help a lot, but the politicians who carry water most vigorously for the gun nut lobby are the same ones who work hardest to make it difficult to get healthcare for anyone but the wealthy.

Frickin' gun nuts are such woosy wallowers in their own sense of victomhood, and such cowerers in their paranoid fear of society, that they think there is actually a political movement against them. I wish.
Posted by cracked on December 11, 2012 at 8:24 PM · Report this
Max Solomon 32
@ 27, 28: i'm sure a body-totin american like you doesn't let a puny sign stop him from protectin the women and children and us beta males with your vast arsenal and lethal skillz.
Posted by Max Solomon on December 11, 2012 at 8:27 PM · Report this
Catalina Vel-DuRay 33
Lord knows I'm no fan of guns. I think the men who are really into them would find more success with a penis pump, and the women who are into them should invest in strap-ons.

However, these sorts of events have much more to do with mental health than they do with firearms. And if this turns out to be yet another young man who someone has decided to prescribe anti-depressants to, instead of dealing with his emotional problems, I just don't know what.
Posted by Catalina Vel-DuRay http://www.danlangdon.com on December 11, 2012 at 8:34 PM · Report this
34
On the isolated focus on mental health: All I know is that when I was growing up, it wasn't common for people to have huge gun collections with 30 round clips. Most folks might have a pistol and a couple of hunting rifles, with maybe one or two additionally that they got from some relative who died. Now if he wants to, Cato can shoot Yoko Ono in the back with a 30 round clip he buys at a discount at a local store. Hearing the modern gun nut talk about their guns is a surreal experience. When I was a kid, people enjoyed reading about military weapons, now huge numbers of individuals want to believe they need to own them and every small town police force thinks it needs a fleet of armored cars or small tanks.

How is a mentally ill person going to be immune to this societal trend of guns being a substitute for financial and emotional security. Especially, if they rarely hear the message that guns aren't the panacea great equalizer they are led to believe.
Posted by cracked on December 11, 2012 at 9:02 PM · Report this
35
I'd like to see my fellow liberals present, in detail, what they propose to solve the problem. Blaming the NRA just isn't gonna cut it.

@10
I'd be interested to see your list. I'll look it up.
Posted by CPN on December 11, 2012 at 9:19 PM · Report this
36
P.S.

I find it amazing and disturbing that two of the last three SLOG entries are about someone getting shot in Oregon when there's nary a word about the kneecapping and subsequent death of union labor in Michigan.

Organized labor just got killed in the cradle of organized labor! And guns are the story? Not a freaking word about Michigan...

Sheesh.
Posted by CPN on December 11, 2012 at 9:32 PM · Report this
Dr_Awesome 37
There's two ideas out there that I think need to be combined, and acted on. One is rather old- I learned of it some time ago.

That one is make the NRA become the enforcement arm of the ACLU. You nutjobs want to "protect your God-given rights"? Then do a goddamn service to your country and help the ACLU protect EVERYONE's rights.

The second one was first mentioned in the previous thread. Make the NRA nuts go clean up the mess every goddamn time there's a mass shooting. Make them clean up the piss and brains and blood. Make them get on their hands and knees and scrub.

You want to own thirty assault rifles with night-vision scopes? Fine. But you gotta serve your country while also helping those less able to help themselves.
Posted by Dr_Awesome on December 11, 2012 at 9:45 PM · Report this
38
@35 -- if we ban all guns now then in a couple hundred years when the existing gun stock is mostly non-functional we'll have far fewer shootings.

Unless the shooters have access to military weapons.
Posted by six shooter on December 11, 2012 at 9:58 PM · Report this
39
Hi Slog - thanks for posting this news - I live in PDX and this is important to me.
Posted by Trish in Portland on December 11, 2012 at 10:04 PM · Report this
40
Gun owners, don't forget to thank these two victims. They just sacrificed more than you ever will in the name of gun "rights."
Posted by DisorganizedReligion on December 11, 2012 at 10:15 PM · Report this
41
@35. Are you dense? There are tens, hundreds of different police suggestions, from minor to major. The NRA has so crushed the politicians who want to even discuss them that they simply don't. The problem is that it is never enough for the NRA: guns are easier and easier to get, as are concealed weapons permits, ammo, and giant clips. Plus, the NRA pushes legislatures like Florida to enact more laws that protect shooters from prosecution and bar doctors from talking with their patients about gun safety. Where have you been hiding? And the world of gun nuts is made up of more than just the NRA.

Policy question one /500: Do you support the sale of 30 round clips?

2/500: do you support encouraging people to talk about guns during the mental health portion of their check ups?

I'm not even an activist, but I could sit down and name a hundred policies that are NOT banning guns but that are opposed vehemently by the NRA. Hell, we, can't even hold the line against their efforts to increase and normalize the crazy. They want people to (be able to) carry concealed weapons literally everywhere, including the arming of elementary school teachers. They actually get legislatures to write bills like this. But watch the unholy release of demons from well funded hell if you want to have a public educational campaign...

Shit, you have the internet. Go online and look up gun control on wikipedia, or gun regulation, or something. You are being a concern troll here by maintaining your deliberate ignorance.
Posted by cracked on December 11, 2012 at 10:33 PM · Report this
42
Restart the clock, it's officially Too Soon To Talk About Gun Control again...
Posted by smcke0wn on December 11, 2012 at 10:54 PM · Report this
wilbur@work 43
Minor point, but the traffic tweets are there so folks can stay out of the way of emergency vehicles, not to signal the apocalypse.

Blaming mass shootings on The Crazy rather than the guns is the same as blaming The Crazy on society, the education system, whatever. Take guns from The Crazy and you don't have mass shootings, it's that simple.
Posted by wilbur@work on December 11, 2012 at 11:11 PM · Report this
44
Is it just me but everyone of the random gun rampages are carried out by males?
Granted, most murder suicides involving children involve their mothers. However the victims are known.
It always seems to be an argument over banning firearms. Everyone agrees that mental illness is a major factor. But why do males seem to think it is necessary to take as many others with them in a blaze of suicidal glory? The argument over the right to bare arms always seems to shut down any further conversation.
Posted by pussnboots on December 11, 2012 at 11:19 PM · Report this
venomlash 45
@44: We have testicles, which secrete androgens, which are responsible for guys being more prone to aggression than girls. (Girls have androgens in their systems too, just not nearly as much.)
Posted by venomlash on December 12, 2012 at 12:49 AM · Report this
46
For the hand ringers, what exactly does "Responsible" gun ownership look like?

What do I need to do to prove to you I am responsible?
Posted by I'll sell you my xd on December 12, 2012 at 1:19 AM · Report this
Bauhaus I 47
Going to have to do something about guns in this country or this is going to be a commonplace event as in...Someone's shooting people at the mall!....Yeah, what else is new?

Or, somehow we are going to have to figure out how to keep unbalanced people away from lethal weapons. Perhaps shoot them in their crib?

OK, NRA, which of these two choices sound easier to do?
Posted by Bauhaus I on December 12, 2012 at 1:30 AM · Report this
48
Re: Mall Santa's comments, I wouldn't be too hard on him. A lot of jobs depend on people buying and selling crap to each other, and if people are afraid to shop at malls, sales will obviously suffer. It seems in poor taste to think about the economic aspects of this when people are dead, their families are torn apart, and who knows how many ordinary shoppers (not to mention mall employees, cops, and emergency workers) have experienced trauma which might stay with them for the rest of their lives. But the economic impact of something like this is real. Retail is a big chunk of our economy, and the holiday shopping orgy is vital for retailers to stay profitable.
Posted by Joe Glibmoron on December 12, 2012 at 2:38 AM · Report this
Fnarf 49
@47, the former. Gun control is impossible in this country. The battle has been lost. The gun kooks can have all the guns they want, and they can accidentally blow their babies' faces off with impunity, and they can shoot a bunch of people in the mall whenever they want, and they can act out their murder-suicides anytime they want, and thirty or forty more people will die from gun violence tomorrow and the next day and the day after that, forever. And nothing is ever going to change. We're not even allowed to talk about it. We're just supposed to sit and pretend to grieve again, when all we really are is numb.

Own guns? Fine. That's your right. Bully for you. But you're a fucking piece of shit. YOU are the problem. You are with the shooter; we are against him. If every rational person in America started shunning gun owners, and not allowing them into their houses, maybe people would start to change.
Posted by Fnarf http://www.facebook.com/fnarf on December 12, 2012 at 5:51 AM · Report this
Fifty-Two-Eighty 50
Yes, I agree. Guns are not the issue. It's males. We should ban them all, now.
Posted by Fifty-Two-Eighty http://www.nra.org on December 12, 2012 at 5:52 AM · Report this
Theodore Gorath 51
@49: I think your point would be better taken if you made the distinction between owning a gun in a city and owning one in rural areas. Simply put, there are many people living in rural areas who need a rifle to protect themselves from the natural world and its dangers. People who live too far from any police station to rely on it. These people are not pieces of shit, and do not murder others. I am related to many of them who live in the mountains of Pennsylvania.

Also, as you well know, many Canadians own guns, but they do not have these problems.

But there is really no reason to own a handgun or assault rifle, especially if you live in a city. Single shot rifle for hunting would be allowed if that is your thing.

You are correct that the battle to ban guns is lost, but there is stil hope in banning the kinds of weapons that make these massacres so easy. But since it is a losing battle for both political parties, no one is interested.
Posted by Theodore Gorath on December 12, 2012 at 8:00 AM · Report this
52
This homeowner is satisfied and alive because he owned a gun. One punk sent straight to hell as well. Can't beat feel good stories like this:

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Charg…

Posted by Bless the gun on December 12, 2012 at 8:26 AM · Report this
ScrawnyKayaker 53
@51 Virtually no one hunts with a "single shot rifle," at least not since the mid-19th century. Other than double-barreled rifles (rare in North America), virtually all 20th century hunting rifles have 3 to 6-shot magazines.
Posted by ScrawnyKayaker on December 12, 2012 at 8:36 AM · Report this
Theodore Gorath 54
@53: Well, I really just meant bolt, single or double-action, as opposed to rapid or burst fire...I am aware that I am only about one of five people who knows much about guns on these threads, and so was using more generalized language. One shot per trigger pull, small clip size. Your critique is certainly valid however.

Also, that was part of the partial weapons ban I was suggesting in cities. Slow firing, long barrel rifles only. The handguns and assault rifles massacre people, not slow firing weapons.

However, I kind of like the idea of bringing back the single shot. Safer for people, fairer for the game.
Posted by Theodore Gorath on December 12, 2012 at 9:24 AM · Report this
GhostDog 55
@35

Ok. In order to get a gun you have to pass a psychological screening to get a permit. This permit will expire after two years in which case you'll have to sit down with a shrink to prove you haven't degenerated mentally since then.

Make it where anyone who owns a gun has to have this permit, no matter how they purchase the gun. Make sure that there are very serious penalties for selling guns to people who don't have the permit.

It won't fix the problem 100% but it will make it a lot harder for mentally unstable people to get their hands on guns.
Posted by GhostDog on December 12, 2012 at 9:59 AM · Report this
Fnarf 56
@55, no, it won't. The black market in guns is comprised mostly of guns that were purchased legally by supposedly sane people and then stolen from them.

The gun that was used to murder my grandparents was taken from my grandpa's hand in a struggle, and afterwards used for many other crimes, including other murders.

The real fact: the desire to own a gun is evidence on the face of it that the person with the desire is too mentally unstable to be permitted to own one.
Posted by Fnarf http://www.facebook.com/fnarf on December 12, 2012 at 10:13 AM · Report this
ScrawnyKayaker 57
@56 You mean, like that notorious psychopath Eleanor Roosevelt?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_yfQ32hZ5TA0/TS…
Posted by ScrawnyKayaker on December 12, 2012 at 10:22 AM · Report this
Fnarf 58
@57, Eleanor Roosevelt has been dead for fifty years. No, I don't think she should be allowed to buy a handgun in 2012.

I also don't see what relevance a photo taken a hundred years ago has to today.
Posted by Fnarf http://www.facebook.com/fnarf on December 12, 2012 at 10:42 AM · Report this
ScrawnyKayaker 59
I reject your implied claim that enjoying bullseye target shooting as a hobby is a guarantee of mental instability, either 100 years ago or today.
Posted by ScrawnyKayaker on December 12, 2012 at 10:54 AM · Report this
Lew Siffer 60
Fnarf must be really dismayed by how many Democrats own handguns. Your opinions are so left field you might as well be on Pluto. Guns won. See this month's Atlantic article.
Posted by Lew Siffer on December 12, 2012 at 10:58 AM · Report this
61
@55 -- I'm against a registry of people who own guns. I'm against an agency tasked with checking up on those people every two years. That's just silly-talk when you start to do the math.

When my grandfather dies and leaves my cousin his collection of antique rifles, should my cousin be forced to take a test before he moves the gun safe into his basement and lets it collect dust?

We either find some way to make ammo very expensive (and re-loaders hard to get) or we ban the manufacture and sale of new guns and wait the hundreds of years it will take for the old guns to stop working.

And we restructure our economy in such a way that we don't employ hundreds of thousands of people in military.

Until then, we should get used to gun-related crime and gun-related murder. We've gotten used to car-related crime and car-related murder.

I'm not so sure there's much difference between the two, except for the gun's innate ability to terrify.
Posted by six shooter on December 12, 2012 at 11:02 AM · Report this
62
@60 -- Washington tends pro-gun and pro-Democrat. This makes for good laughs when the Republican trolls start going on about how the R's are better armed.
Posted by six shooter on December 12, 2012 at 11:05 AM · Report this
keshmeshi 63
Blaming mass shootings on The Crazy rather than the guns is the same as blaming The Crazy on society, the education system, whatever.


What makes you think society isn't responsible for The Crazy? Many mental illnesses are caused by outside factors, post-traumatic stress is the most obvious one. Ever heard of the work of R.D. Lang? He treated several people suffering from mental illness (schizophrenia, I believe) through group talk therapy. That therapy made them functional again and able to go back into the real world. Within six months, they were back in the mental hospital.

Society is more than capable of driving people crazy.
Posted by keshmeshi on December 12, 2012 at 11:49 AM · Report this
Lissa 64
@56: I am so sorry about your grandparents Fnarf. It is no wonder you are so passionate about this issue since it has hit so closely to home.
Posted by Lissa on December 12, 2012 at 12:05 PM · Report this
GhostDog 65
@61

Unfortunately "suck it up buttercup" is not really an acceptable answer and I'll tell you why.

TL;DR: If there is a constant, significant risk of some crazy with an AR-15 mowing people down in common areas we won't be able to have a community(or be able to really leave our home). Which we need to have a "free community".

Long Version: There is a lot of pressure in the United States to reduce the commons(please note, I am not saying this pressure is organized as much as a consequence of consumerism, the internet, etc), the area where people can freely gather and associate with one another. Without a commons you don't really have a community, you just have a group of individuals who share the same zip code. Unless we have a way to make sure that people aren't going to be cut down by a lunatic with an AR-15 having an actual functioning commons will be impossible.
Posted by GhostDog on December 12, 2012 at 1:01 PM · Report this
66
@64 Though I imagine had his Grandparents survived that terrible incident family reunions would've been very awkward. What with Fnarf stridently shunning his grandfather, the gun owner.
Posted by tkc on December 12, 2012 at 3:10 PM · Report this
Ipso Facto 67
@66: You're kind of a dick, aren't you tkc?
Posted by Ipso Facto http://therealnews.com on December 12, 2012 at 4:08 PM · Report this
68
@67 Oh. Yeah. For sure. I am.

But then I'm not the one proposing we solve the gun issue by shunning 160 million people and constantly publicizing a family tragedy as a rhetorical cudgel.
Posted by tkc on December 12, 2012 at 4:29 PM · Report this
69
Uh oh, looks like it was an angry hipster. Angry, no doubt, that his organic artisanal body piercing business failed. Decided to get the "haves".
Posted by Sad Hipster on December 12, 2012 at 5:04 PM · Report this

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