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News & ArtsMonday, February 4, 2013
Chow Big Soda Strikes Again
Posted by Paul Constant on Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 2:27 PM
CBS banned SodaStream’s Super Bowl spot because, apparently, it was too much of a direct hit to two of its biggest sponsors, Coke and Pepsi.
Please pause and read that sentence again.
I am shocked that CBS would ban a spot for being too competitive. But I’m even more shocked that the advertising world isn’t up in arms about it.
Here's the ad in question:
It's been a year and a half now, and I love my SodaStream. I don't add any of the corn-syrup flavorings that SodaStream sells; I either drink the water straight-up or I squeeze half a lemon or lime into the bottle. It's reduced my monthly intake of Diet Coke* to a mere trickle. No wonder Big Soda is getting these ads killed.
* Yes, Diet Coke. It's what I was raised on. Regular Coke is way too sweet.
1
Hmmmmm...the Soda Stream commercial they did run seemed to actually be more of a "hit", IMO. I wonder why they banned that one?
2
I don't use a SodaStream but I do drink lime and seltzer I buy in cans. It has greatly reduced, almost eliminated my soda intake. All I was really craving was the bubbles, not the sweetness or caffine (black coffee fills in that need). You just have to get used to the non-sweet drinks and some extra sourness.
If your trying to kick a soda habit, seltzer is the way to go.
If your trying to kick a soda habit, seltzer is the way to go.
3
I can't get my Sodastream to get the water bubbly enough. I had better luck with my old soda siphon (the squirty kind). Harder to clean, though. The Sodastream syrups are too sweet by half, but I've had fun experimenting with different syrups.
4
I saw the Soda Stream commercial. This seems like an antitrust issue to me. I don't think CBS, Pepsi and Coke can do it.
5
I can't remember the last time I drank something carbonated that wasn't beer. Even factoring in mixed drinks and whatnot I don't think I've consumed more than a liter of soda total so far this century. When colas got too sweet for me I just stopped drinking soda altogether.
Broadcasters nix commercials all the time for all sorts of reasons, and this isn't the only commercial for this Superbowl that CBS declined to run. Unless Coke and Pepsi are engaged in a widespread effort to get Sodastream ads blocked by all broadcasters and other outlets, I doubt the DOJ/FTC will do anything. But other advertisers should be concerned, as the Forbes writer suggests, since the precedent is bad and with Coke and Pepsi getting away with it, it's only a matter of time before other dominant players in other industries try the same thing.
Broadcasters nix commercials all the time for all sorts of reasons, and this isn't the only commercial for this Superbowl that CBS declined to run. Unless Coke and Pepsi are engaged in a widespread effort to get Sodastream ads blocked by all broadcasters and other outlets, I doubt the DOJ/FTC will do anything. But other advertisers should be concerned, as the Forbes writer suggests, since the precedent is bad and with Coke and Pepsi getting away with it, it's only a matter of time before other dominant players in other industries try the same thing.
6
@4: I don't see how it cold be an anti-trust issue because CBS can choose who can purchase its air time.
7
I thought you had to pay for the logos of your competitors. I wouldn't have aired a commercial if they hadn't received the rights to those logos/brands.
8
10 quick button presses in refrigerated water will get your soda stream water as bubbly as store-bought.
10
@8, it doesn't, though. Not even close. It also loses bubbles way faster -- a sealed bottle loses gas pressure as fast as an open can of Coke. And yes, I've checked the gaskets, even bought new caps.
11
I'm with @9. not to mention the fact that they did air another Soda Stream commercial during the Super Bowl, and it was loaded with iconoclastic, anti-corporate soda imagery. big fucking deal.
12
I don't really have an opinion on the running of the ad, though I wanted to say that the premixed packets for the soda stream machine that I've used have all been godawful.
14
@10 You should try my carbonation setup. I routinely carbonate in excess of 40 lbs of pressure, which gets my seltzer damn fizzy.
16
@13: Yep. Buying SodaStream is enabling apartheid. Just buy some fucking generic seltzer water and some syrup.
17
@14, I've seen and admired your setup before. But I am not handy, and my homeowner's insurance specifically has a clause that reads "was he fucking around with the drill again? Are those gas tanks? We talked about this, remember? You are to stick to typing and not try and MAKE THINGS, OK? Claim denied. House is a total writeoff."
19
The SS commercial that did air was just as effective, if not more so. You really think anyone watching that commercial said to themselves "hmmmm...what are these exploding plastic soda bottles? And what mysterious companies produce the overwhelming majority of them?"
20
I don't understand the American palate for flavored waters (like Mio), juices (like Odwalla) or carbonated beverages (name your poison). Drink wine, for God's sake, people. Wine! (Okay, not a God person? Me neither. Good.) Sparkling wine? Fine.
21
@20, I'd love to drink wine all day at work, but I think my boss might object. Also, wine is EXPENSIVE. If I wait for specials I can buy two 12-packs of Diet Coke With Lime for the price of one cheap bottle of wine.
22
Aren't these "banned" commercial claims almost always PR stunts to squeeze a little more product awareness out after the Super Bowl? This article doesn't present a compelling case that there's a story here anymore than GoDaddy and Budweiser and the dozens of other companies that made additional spots they were hoping were would watch in our free time.
Also, re: Sodastream. Kinda surprised it took so many comments for a mention of the boycott to rear it's head. I can't imagine the due diligence it'd to get to the bottom of their whole labor practice sketchiness, but my carbonated water needs are minimal, so... I've got that going for me..
Also, re: Sodastream. Kinda surprised it took so many comments for a mention of the boycott to rear it's head. I can't imagine the due diligence it'd to get to the bottom of their whole labor practice sketchiness, but my carbonated water needs are minimal, so... I've got that going for me..
23
Paul - I love Diet Coke, too. How does SodaStream's diet cola syrup compared to Diet Coke? There are some people out there - believe it or not - who cannot tell a difference between Coke and Pepsi (and the diet versions). I assume it's the same people who can't tell the difference between Chips Ahoy! and homemade Toll House cookies. But whatever.
Anyway, I want to invest in a SodaStream because I spend too much on Diet Coke, but it would be a waste of money if they aren't very similar - because Pepsi is a very poor substitute and off-brand colas...get outta here!
Anyway, I want to invest in a SodaStream because I spend too much on Diet Coke, but it would be a waste of money if they aren't very similar - because Pepsi is a very poor substitute and off-brand colas...get outta here!
24
...also, I don't want to encourage sugar consumption, but have you tried either Kosher Coke or Mexican Coke? They don't use HFCS. They use cane sugar and I'm told they taste like the Coca-Cola of olden days.
25
Just read here that SodaStream is an Israeli product. That's very odd. The first place I ever saw a SodaStream was here in Koreatown in LA. It was in all the Korean kitchen stores months and months ago. I assumed it was Korean.
26
Yeah, @13! Boycott this environmentally responsible product because it's made by dirty, dirty Jews!
I am so sick of the knee-jerk villainization of all things Israel, and the associated abuse of language, by people with no fucking clue what they're talking about.
Isreal is a troubled democracy, a fragile democracy. But it is a democracy. Arab-Israeli citizens and other minority citizens vote and fully participate in society. Israel is no more a South Africa-style apartheid for reasons having to do with the Occupied Territories than the United States is an apartheid because Puerto Rico isn't fully enfranchised.
By the way, Spain never directly attacked us from Puerto Rico during the war that yielded that territorial acquisition, unlike a few Levant-area aggressors that might be named.
Take your ignorance- and antisemitism-based boycott out of these barely-relevant threads and shove it up your ass.
I am so sick of the knee-jerk villainization of all things Israel, and the associated abuse of language, by people with no fucking clue what they're talking about.
Isreal is a troubled democracy, a fragile democracy. But it is a democracy. Arab-Israeli citizens and other minority citizens vote and fully participate in society. Israel is no more a South Africa-style apartheid for reasons having to do with the Occupied Territories than the United States is an apartheid because Puerto Rico isn't fully enfranchised.
By the way, Spain never directly attacked us from Puerto Rico during the war that yielded that territorial acquisition, unlike a few Levant-area aggressors that might be named.
Take your ignorance- and antisemitism-based boycott out of these barely-relevant threads and shove it up your ass.
27
@23-25: Mexican Coke is way preferable to regular Coke, but I'm not in love with it the way I'm hooked on Diet Coke. I haven't tried SodaStream's diet flavor. I hate their diet fruit syrups.
Fnarf: You can control how much carbonation goes into the water by pushing the button more times. I don't know how this doesn't work for you. I generally drain my bottles in less than 24 hours, so I can't speak to how long the bubbles last, though. They definitely last all day.
@ Everyone bringing it up: I had no idea about the Israeli connection until you brought it up. Thanks for the information. I'll do a little reading on it tonight.
Fnarf: You can control how much carbonation goes into the water by pushing the button more times. I don't know how this doesn't work for you. I generally drain my bottles in less than 24 hours, so I can't speak to how long the bubbles last, though. They definitely last all day.
@ Everyone bringing it up: I had no idea about the Israeli connection until you brought it up. Thanks for the information. I'll do a little reading on it tonight.
28
@27, I push and push until the buzzing gas escape noise, and quite a while after that. Possible reasons include a defective unit and a defective operator (most likely).
@23, Sodastream's Diet Coke is pretty awful, kind of sour-tasting. Not metallic -- real Diet Coke is metallic, and I LIKE that taste (Tab is better). If you add a squirt of Torani lime-flavored syrup (look in the coffee aisle of a big supermarket) you can make it an inferior but drinkable version of DC with Lime.
Note that all Sodastream flavors are partly "diet" -- they're all made with aspartame, even the non-diet ones, which is part of the reason they suck so bad. The worst is, very disappointingly, the Sodastream Tonic Water -- having a source of cheap, quality Tonic (i.e., better than Schweppes or Canada Dry junk) would make life almost bearable, but it is not to be.
But yeah, all Sodastream flavors are crappy.
@23, Sodastream's Diet Coke is pretty awful, kind of sour-tasting. Not metallic -- real Diet Coke is metallic, and I LIKE that taste (Tab is better). If you add a squirt of Torani lime-flavored syrup (look in the coffee aisle of a big supermarket) you can make it an inferior but drinkable version of DC with Lime.
Note that all Sodastream flavors are partly "diet" -- they're all made with aspartame, even the non-diet ones, which is part of the reason they suck so bad. The worst is, very disappointingly, the Sodastream Tonic Water -- having a source of cheap, quality Tonic (i.e., better than Schweppes or Canada Dry junk) would make life almost bearable, but it is not to be.
But yeah, all Sodastream flavors are crappy.
29
@28 - well that settles that. SodaStream is out.
My neighbor and one time best friend in the 70s and 80s was a Tab freak. She didn't care for Diet Coke at all when it was introduced. I always thought Tab was more saccharin-flavored but maybe that's what she was used to. She drank it a lot. She's have it with beef burgundy, cheese souffle, pasta, or chocolate cake ("It cuts the sweet.") She also adored Diet Dr. Pepper. But I digress, we'd go on Sunday safaris for Tab because it was getting harder and harder to find and she didn't have a car. When we did find some, we'd stock her up. Enough for a month or two. We'd heard that soft drinks in cans have a shelf life of about 2-3 months (2L bottles are 5-6 mos.). I haven't been shopping for Tab since then. Is it still hard to find?
My neighbor and one time best friend in the 70s and 80s was a Tab freak. She didn't care for Diet Coke at all when it was introduced. I always thought Tab was more saccharin-flavored but maybe that's what she was used to. She drank it a lot. She's have it with beef burgundy, cheese souffle, pasta, or chocolate cake ("It cuts the sweet.") She also adored Diet Dr. Pepper. But I digress, we'd go on Sunday safaris for Tab because it was getting harder and harder to find and she didn't have a car. When we did find some, we'd stock her up. Enough for a month or two. We'd heard that soft drinks in cans have a shelf life of about 2-3 months (2L bottles are 5-6 mos.). I haven't been shopping for Tab since then. Is it still hard to find?
30
@28: If you're willing to spend a little time in a hippie herb store or two, making your own tonic water is pretty simple. All you need is some chinchona bark and some patience: the concentrate can last for months.
31
@29, I have little trouble finding Tab in most supermarkets now. The long pack of 12 cans has really revolutionized the soda aisle; there are a lot more varieties than there used to be. And yes, Tab has that bitter saccharine tang that I love so much. I will only drink it out of cans, though; soda from a bottle is too bland. I like a soda that feels almost electric on my tongue, like touching it to a battery.
Oddly, the only sugared sodas I like are ultra-sweet fruit ones, like orange, grape, strawberry. But I'm on a diet. Though all this diet soda I'm drinking (I also love Coke Zero With Cherry) has made my liver the size and shape of a 1966 Ford Thunderbird, I'm pretty sure.
Oddly, the only sugared sodas I like are ultra-sweet fruit ones, like orange, grape, strawberry. But I'm on a diet. Though all this diet soda I'm drinking (I also love Coke Zero With Cherry) has made my liver the size and shape of a 1966 Ford Thunderbird, I'm pretty sure.
32
@26 "Take your ignorance- and antisemitism-based boycott out of these barely-relevant threads and shove it up your ass."
Truth hurts, doesn't it? People pointing out how Israeli apartheid resembles or is even worse than South Africa's?
The Holocaust happened in Europe, not Palestine. Palestinians want human rights. What is anti-semitic about that?
Also, here is some info on SodaStream in musical form. Cheers, all!
http://youtu.be/nsxx6RxqcwM
Truth hurts, doesn't it? People pointing out how Israeli apartheid resembles or is even worse than South Africa's?
The Holocaust happened in Europe, not Palestine. Palestinians want human rights. What is anti-semitic about that?
Also, here is some info on SodaStream in musical form. Cheers, all!
http://youtu.be/nsxx6RxqcwM
33
26, the very fact that you equate any criticism of Israel w/ anti-semitism nullifies completely everything you have to say. That is a trick used by the Zionists to deflect attention away from Israel's deplorable human rights record and it's status as the main barrier to peace in the region You are simply a mouthpiece for propaganda.
From the horse's mouth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla…
From the horse's mouth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla…
35
"Diet Soda or Soda, the results are the same.
You will gain weight."
Do you ever tire of being wrong?
You will gain weight."
Do you ever tire of being wrong?
36
I thought Seattle had a seltzer bottle service like in the ancient past. They bring you new fizzy water stuff and you give them empty bottles.
38
@14 Some friends of mine put together a very similar setup, but they came up with a cheaper arrangement for the bottle cap fillers. They bought some short-stem tubeless tire valves and pulled them through holes in the disposable soda bottle caps (yes Fnarf, this involved drilling). At the end of the fill hose, they just have a standard tire chuck. I got to fill a couple bottles. It seems to work very well.
Sodastream bothers me for the same reason the old soda syphons bother me. The disposable steel cartridges and the price per fill.
One of the great things about your (and my friends') setup is you can recarbonate standard bottles of soda after they've been half-used, have sat in the fridge a day or two, and have lost most of their fizz. Then, you can buy those cheap two-liter bottles without having to serve the whole thing at once or lose the quality.
Sodastream bothers me for the same reason the old soda syphons bother me. The disposable steel cartridges and the price per fill.
One of the great things about your (and my friends') setup is you can recarbonate standard bottles of soda after they've been half-used, have sat in the fridge a day or two, and have lost most of their fizz. Then, you can buy those cheap two-liter bottles without having to serve the whole thing at once or lose the quality.
39
Hey, way to not remotely address the false equivalence and abuse of the word "apartheid", @32 and @33.
I'm no fan of Likud, I think residential settlement expansion is stupid and has been used to intentionally fan the flames of the conflict, and I have serious problems with the encroachment of theocratic ideologies upon secular matters.
But the fact remains that the Occupied Territories were acquired during a border conflict precipitated by the territories' former owners, and in that sense they are morally equivalent to Danzig/Gdańsk, Alsace-Lorraine, or Czech Silesia. If Israel had wished to kick 100% of the occupants into refugee status in Egypt and Jordan and permanently absorb the territories, all of human history would have been their precedent.
@32: Tossing around the word "Zionism" like a hot potato and bringing up the Holocaust (which nobody else did) just to dismiss disdainfully more than convince me that you're a deeply bigoted piece of shit.
Also, cute YouTube video -- "SodaStream causes Palestinians to die!" Funny, because the company "employs some 900 Arabs from the Palestinian Authority[-governed West Bank]". Yeah, economic development and stable employment, the lack of which is integral to understanding the sustained hostilities, is totally the same as killing people! Go fuck yourself.
@33: More YouTube videos! I'm a fan of Amy Goodman. I actually like Shulamit Aloni and think she truly believes she's working in the best interests of a lasting peace. But she's a classic Litmus-Test Leftie and her suggestion that calling out bigotry is nothing but a nefarious "trick" holds about as much water as Ralph Nader's suggestion that an Al Gore presidency would have been just like George Bush's.
I'm no fan of Likud, I think residential settlement expansion is stupid and has been used to intentionally fan the flames of the conflict, and I have serious problems with the encroachment of theocratic ideologies upon secular matters.
But the fact remains that the Occupied Territories were acquired during a border conflict precipitated by the territories' former owners, and in that sense they are morally equivalent to Danzig/Gdańsk, Alsace-Lorraine, or Czech Silesia. If Israel had wished to kick 100% of the occupants into refugee status in Egypt and Jordan and permanently absorb the territories, all of human history would have been their precedent.
@32: Tossing around the word "Zionism" like a hot potato and bringing up the Holocaust (which nobody else did) just to dismiss disdainfully more than convince me that you're a deeply bigoted piece of shit.
Also, cute YouTube video -- "SodaStream causes Palestinians to die!" Funny, because the company "employs some 900 Arabs from the Palestinian Authority[-governed West Bank]". Yeah, economic development and stable employment, the lack of which is integral to understanding the sustained hostilities, is totally the same as killing people! Go fuck yourself.
@33: More YouTube videos! I'm a fan of Amy Goodman. I actually like Shulamit Aloni and think she truly believes she's working in the best interests of a lasting peace. But she's a classic Litmus-Test Leftie and her suggestion that calling out bigotry is nothing but a nefarious "trick" holds about as much water as Ralph Nader's suggestion that an Al Gore presidency would have been just like George Bush's.
40
@10 - That's weird: my SodaStream makes seltzer that's almost too fizzy. I have a very cold fridge, though, and I fully cool the bottle before fizzing it up. (I hold it down till it makes that terrible buzz, and then give it 3 or 4 short blasts more.)
Most the flavors are indeed crap, but I love their orange syrup: tastes more like Fanta Orange than Orange Crush (which tastes like melted popsicle). Their tonic is fucking terrible.
Also, if you don't want to pay $25 or whatever to swap out the CO2 cylinder, check this out: someone makes a valve that works in the SodaStream but fits onto standard 12oz or 20oz paintball cylinders (which fit inside SodaStream machines fine, depending on which size model you have). You can have these filled for about $5 at sporting good stores that cater to that sport. (It's the first product on the page.)
Also, @17 and @18, this place sells a kit like Goldy's setup for $100, though with a 20oz paintball tank. But there's nothing to figure out: it's specifically designed for carbonating standard 2 liter bottles, and it comes with everything you need. They say in the detailed description that they also offer a complete kit with a 5 pound tank like Goldy's, which welding shops will fill, but it's not on the site, so you'd have to call them. (The horror!) I recall it being around $150 when it was up there. And again, plug and play, though I'd strap that tank to something.
Most the flavors are indeed crap, but I love their orange syrup: tastes more like Fanta Orange than Orange Crush (which tastes like melted popsicle). Their tonic is fucking terrible.
Also, if you don't want to pay $25 or whatever to swap out the CO2 cylinder, check this out: someone makes a valve that works in the SodaStream but fits onto standard 12oz or 20oz paintball cylinders (which fit inside SodaStream machines fine, depending on which size model you have). You can have these filled for about $5 at sporting good stores that cater to that sport. (It's the first product on the page.)
Also, @17 and @18, this place sells a kit like Goldy's setup for $100, though with a 20oz paintball tank. But there's nothing to figure out: it's specifically designed for carbonating standard 2 liter bottles, and it comes with everything you need. They say in the detailed description that they also offer a complete kit with a 5 pound tank like Goldy's, which welding shops will fill, but it's not on the site, so you'd have to call them. (The horror!) I recall it being around $150 when it was up there. And again, plug and play, though I'd strap that tank to something.
41
Come on BDS, "the jews broke my soda" ain't gonna cut it. Lets call out the effed up policies of the Israeli government like adults.
42
@40 I bought my kit from Keg Connection, which you linked to, but I "purchased" a 20 pound cylinder locally from Central Welding in Georgetown. It lasts me about a year, and then I swap it for a full cylinder for about $20.
I seriously considered the Soda Stream before I bought my system. I think it works just fine, and I've bought a couple as gifts now that the tanks are more widely available for exchange (at Bartells and other local stores). But at $15 for about 60 liters worth of seltzer, it just seemed a little pricey. By comparison, I pay about two cents a liter.
What I'd really love is to be able to hook up a Soda Stream to my 20 lb cylinder. Best of both worlds.
I seriously considered the Soda Stream before I bought my system. I think it works just fine, and I've bought a couple as gifts now that the tanks are more widely available for exchange (at Bartells and other local stores). But at $15 for about 60 liters worth of seltzer, it just seemed a little pricey. By comparison, I pay about two cents a liter.
What I'd really love is to be able to hook up a Soda Stream to my 20 lb cylinder. Best of both worlds.
43
39, you brought up the anti-semitism bit. Your first sentence, where no one else had mentioned it, you write "dirty Jews." No one else. You. You are the one equating Israel w/ all Judaism. You're not here to discuss, you're here to prevent all debate.
To have an honest debate or discussion, you must accept the legitimacy of the other person's right to speak. Instead, the very first thing out of your mouth is the denial of that legitimacy: anyone who speaks against Israel is anti-semitic.
That tactic is the at the heart of the violence in the Middle East. We know what we get when we listen to people like you, it's gone on for 65 years. Same shit, different voices. You're not giving anything of value, just reinforcing the dynamic that will result in more atrocities.
Which is why we can discount anyone who cries wolf w/ the anti-semitism bit. By not respecting the legitimacy of the other side, you forfeit the right for anyone to respect your side.
To have an honest debate or discussion, you must accept the legitimacy of the other person's right to speak. Instead, the very first thing out of your mouth is the denial of that legitimacy: anyone who speaks against Israel is anti-semitic.
That tactic is the at the heart of the violence in the Middle East. We know what we get when we listen to people like you, it's gone on for 65 years. Same shit, different voices. You're not giving anything of value, just reinforcing the dynamic that will result in more atrocities.
Which is why we can discount anyone who cries wolf w/ the anti-semitism bit. By not respecting the legitimacy of the other side, you forfeit the right for anyone to respect your side.
44
@26, Sodastream is not being boycotted because it's made in Israel. It's being boycotted because it's NOT made in Israel. Beyond that, if you want to call the WB disputed, go ahead. It only kills the 2SS. And no one - NO ONE - brought up Jews until you did. All by yourself. Hasbara fail.
45
$15 for a tiny bottle of CO2 vs. the tanks you can get at a gas (welding beverage whatever) supply is why I rejected the Soda Stream. That plus I already had most of the set up for my "kegerator" (jockey box in a fridge really).
The key component is a "carbonator cap" and the associated ball cock valve. Beyond that you need a tank of gas, a common regulator, and a tiny amount of tubing with clamps. Simple. Search "carbonator cap" and you can find all you need many places (e.g. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1…)
The key component is a "carbonator cap" and the associated ball cock valve. Beyond that you need a tank of gas, a common regulator, and a tiny amount of tubing with clamps. Simple. Search "carbonator cap" and you can find all you need many places (e.g. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1…)
46
"People like you..."
"It's gone on for 65 years..."
"You forfeit the right..."
Maybe @13 and @16 didn't intend to conflate Israeli products and the presumed culpability of Jews. But @32 and @33/@43 sure as hell did.
I'm not the least bit desirous of "more atrocities" (nice blame-shifting there), nor of shutting down debate, nor of any expansions or incursions or stupid military escapades that make peace more difficult.
But facts are facts and history is history. By all historic precedent, Israel could have conquered those lands outright once attacked, expelled all inhabitants, and that would have been that. Any move toward two states is by definition a unilateral withdrawal.
And that's probably even wise, since settlement policy has largely been a multi-decade shooting-oneself-in-the-foot spree, and since no one but the craziest hard-liners actually wants to evict the Palestinians or to spend the rest of their lives in a state of perpetual war.
However, those who envision a "two-state solution" with impermeable borders and zero economic interaction would doom the Palestinians to permanent ghetto-ization. Lack of economic opportunity is at the heart of the region's resentments. Israel and Palestine are together the size of New Jersey; Palestine's other neighbor-states are indifferent at best and collapsing at worst. An economically isolated "independent Palestine" would be no better situated and no less resentful than an "occupied" territory.
If a company is employing West Bank workers, paying them well and treating them fairly, and claims no political agenda, then it is both counterproductive and stupid to launch a vendetta against that company. Economic normalization could even be the path to peace.
Anyway, my original offense was taken at @16's use of "apartheid". Israel is not an apartheid state, because the residents of its undisputed lands have equal rights. The United States had to proactively grant Puerto Rican citizenship, and it still hasn't granted Puerto Ricans full voting rights or statehood. You can't be a "second-class citizen" of a territory that is merely "occupied".
My second offense was taken at the rampant ignorance of history and rush to judgment that seems to be unique to American quasi-liberals broaching the topic of Israel. Which is where the dangerously trendy antisemitism (that @32 makes most explicit) becomes germane.
More...
"It's gone on for 65 years..."
"You forfeit the right..."
Maybe @13 and @16 didn't intend to conflate Israeli products and the presumed culpability of Jews. But @32 and @33/@43 sure as hell did.
I'm not the least bit desirous of "more atrocities" (nice blame-shifting there), nor of shutting down debate, nor of any expansions or incursions or stupid military escapades that make peace more difficult.
But facts are facts and history is history. By all historic precedent, Israel could have conquered those lands outright once attacked, expelled all inhabitants, and that would have been that. Any move toward two states is by definition a unilateral withdrawal.
And that's probably even wise, since settlement policy has largely been a multi-decade shooting-oneself-in-the-foot spree, and since no one but the craziest hard-liners actually wants to evict the Palestinians or to spend the rest of their lives in a state of perpetual war.
However, those who envision a "two-state solution" with impermeable borders and zero economic interaction would doom the Palestinians to permanent ghetto-ization. Lack of economic opportunity is at the heart of the region's resentments. Israel and Palestine are together the size of New Jersey; Palestine's other neighbor-states are indifferent at best and collapsing at worst. An economically isolated "independent Palestine" would be no better situated and no less resentful than an "occupied" territory.
If a company is employing West Bank workers, paying them well and treating them fairly, and claims no political agenda, then it is both counterproductive and stupid to launch a vendetta against that company. Economic normalization could even be the path to peace.
Anyway, my original offense was taken at @16's use of "apartheid". Israel is not an apartheid state, because the residents of its undisputed lands have equal rights. The United States had to proactively grant Puerto Rican citizenship, and it still hasn't granted Puerto Ricans full voting rights or statehood. You can't be a "second-class citizen" of a territory that is merely "occupied".
My second offense was taken at the rampant ignorance of history and rush to judgment that seems to be unique to American quasi-liberals broaching the topic of Israel. Which is where the dangerously trendy antisemitism (that @32 makes most explicit) becomes germane.
47
@fnarf
for me, the key to getting really good bubbles is twofold: refrigerate the water first (overnight) and use water that hasn't been de-mineralized (like a britta machines). I filter for impurities like chlorine, but use a Berkey, so the minerals stay in. It tastes better and our bodies need it. But, the minerals seems to increase the staying-power of the bubbles.
for me, the key to getting really good bubbles is twofold: refrigerate the water first (overnight) and use water that hasn't been de-mineralized (like a britta machines). I filter for impurities like chlorine, but use a Berkey, so the minerals stay in. It tastes better and our bodies need it. But, the minerals seems to increase the staying-power of the bubbles.
48
Number 31, I make my own diet tonic water with liquid quinine essence (from Nature's Flavor's) and liquid stevia in club soda or from a sodastream. You can adjust the sweetness and bitterness to taste.
49
@46 To compare the state of the Arabs in Israel with those of Puerto Ricans in the US betrays stunning dearth of understanding of the history of Puerto Rico, Palestine, or both, and is utterly disingenuous and offensive. You should be ashamed of yourself.
50
I don't have a Sodastream because I don't support companies that make their products in illegal settlements at the expense of Palestinians. That, and I made my own "Sodastream" for about $75.
51
@49. I wasn't comparing political histories in the slightest. Just land acquisitions and territorial relationships.
Those who think Israel is obligated to set a Brand New Magnanimous Precedent for dealing with territorial possessions resulting from a defensive war are hypocrites and should be ashamed of themselves!
Unfortunately, the discourse on the subject of Palestine has become so warped that basic logic is now seen as a Great Zionist Plot.
Those who think Israel is obligated to set a Brand New Magnanimous Precedent for dealing with territorial possessions resulting from a defensive war are hypocrites and should be ashamed of themselves!
Unfortunately, the discourse on the subject of Palestine has become so warped that basic logic is now seen as a Great Zionist Plot.
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