Savage Love Episode 307


I'm in an open relationship. I've found a lot of support from the blog The author is sharp witted and takes a don't bullshit, don't pander, be yourself approach to relationships. There's also the Ethical Slut, which is a great book about living in a relationship with multiple partners or an "understanding," but doing so in a way that upholds values and is caring and respectful to the people who are important to you.

All that said, I started my polyamorous lifestyle after divorcing my husband of 7 years. My parents went through a lot of shit with me and I kept them updated on my relationships as they came and went. I didn't tell them right away that we were all banging, but they knew that both of my boys were very dear to me. I didn't make a point of saying "hey, Mom, Dad, I've got 2 SLAMpigs that I fuck on a regular basis," I just kind of let all the information trickle out as it seemed relevant. Sometimes my mom seems a little wary of the choices that I make, but for the most part I've trained her to trust me. It was a long training process, though.
What's the link to that It Gets Better video of that doctor's "Fuck You Wall" you mention in the first segment of the Podcast?
e-cigs can help for some couples: it fixes the smell & taste problem, and the danger of secondary smoking. On the other hand, it opens the door to the smoker smoking inside, in the car, in bed... so that's very weird, feels like living in the 1940s...
To the girl who wants he boyfriend to quit smoking:

I used to be that boyfriend. I smoked for 16 years, tried quitting using various methods about 8 times. Then I found myself with a woman I loved more than anyone I had ever met. We talked about long term commitment, but the smoking had to stop. Having never tried quitting cold turkey, I decided to give that a try... with emotional support. Whenever my brain started screaming at me to smoke (it really feels like that) she would talk me of the ledge, or buy me a donut, or whatever. And it worked, because I had the support of someone I truly cared about. Sadly, we are no longer together for other reasons, but it's been two years and I'm still not smoking. Good luck.
I quit using the same book Dan recommended 'Easy Way To Quit Smoking' By Allen Carr, you should buy a copy for your husband because it really works!
I'm a huge fan of Tristan Taormino's "Opening Up" -- I wince when I see people recommending "The Ethical Slut" as something for NON-open/poly people to read in order to understand how open/poly relationships work, because it tends to focus only on one type of open relationship (the intimate-network kind), and its focus on "You need to own your own feelings!" has sometimes been used by people who are being selfish cockbags to tell their partners, who are justifiably upset by the selfish cockbag actions of their partner, that "Their feelings are their own to deal with."

Not exactly an ideal primer, in my opinion. Conversely, "Opening Up" goes over a LOT of different ways of being monogamish/open/poly/polyfidelitous/etc., doesn't espouse a One True Way of dealing with relationship structures or emotional issues, and is, in my mind, both a good gift to give to a partner who you'd like to talk about being in a non-monogamous relationship with, or to a friend who wants a better understanding of just how the hell a triad (or whatever) relationship works.

Seconding the recommendation for the Polyamorous Misanthrope!
The Easy Way to Stop Smoking book really does work. The author suggests continuing to smoke while you read it. This way you will just read it instead of avoiding it. It is an easy read, I read it in 2 days and stopped. It breaks down a lot of the myths associated with smoking. I have a copy if anyone wants it.
VOR fetishist- there are chat channels out there for you. GO to mIRC. Find them. Don't be a dick. work on your other social skills as a person, and stop focusing on your kink to be the avenue through which you approaches partners
that is all
because it's raw luck when you have a fringe fetishist but they exist.

My best friend is a woman who is not interested in sex but is highly productive and fantastic dom. with 2 partners and a slave.

They exist.

I promise.

You are 24. be patient. And don't make your fetish the thing about you that defines you, and don't get depressed or desperate.

I wish I could help you. Just know you are not alone. You will find your people and your comfort zone.

Smoker's GF- E- cigs. Water vapor with or without nicotine and even different flavors like tiramisu. Or mint candy. I got my husband on these and it is so much better and cheeper. and no nasty smell and no toxic chemicals. Now he can ween himself to smaller doses.
To the girlfriend of a smoker: Pressuring your partner to quit smoking can do the exact opposite of what you want! Quitting smoking is super hard - nicotine is incredibly addictive and smoking is completely ingrained into your partner's daily activities and his personal sense of identity.

There's a whole heck of a lot of bad information out there about how to quit. Here are some resources though: has some great basic tips for your partner.
He can also call the state tobacco quit line for where you are at (1-800-QUIT-NOW) and get a personalized approach and an expert to help him quit. Every state has one, and depending on where you're located he may be able to get patches, nicotine gum, etc. for FREE! Yay, Free!!!

To learn more about how you can support him with this Really Challenging Process (and remember, this is a life long process, not an isolated event - your bf will always be a former smoker), check out this site:…

And remember folks, the Electronic Cigarette is not FDA approved, and I do not believe any non-biased, peer reviewed study has been conducted to review their safety or efficacy in helping people to quit - indeed, they are actually classified as a tobacco product. They have proven in some cases to be down right dangerous! Like, blow up in your face (literally) dangerous. So be sure to get information about those from someone who is NOT trying to sell them to you.

Good luck!
I was kind of shocked by how little you seemed to listen to the 24 year old with the long list of kinks who doesn't like to fuck. It was pretty clear he was respectful and not the type to prey on people...I believe he mentioned mutual respect in his call.

He also said clearly that his partner being into all his kinks is NOT a deal breaker...and he said that while he is not interested in sex, he is OK with his partner finding sex outside the relationship.

I'm not saying his dating path won't be harder than most, it clearly will. But sex-bots as your number one recommendation? Really Dan?

Seems to me he needs a heavy, open minded, probably somewhat nerdy girl who either doesn't have a high sex drive, or LIKES the idea of getting to have sex outside of her relationship, and is willing to talk dirty about things that don't necessarily turn her on...maybe she has unusual kinks of her own that HE can help fulfill. Not an impossible woman to find in my opinion.

Good luck to the caller.
@10 - I think it's just that Dan thinks there is nearly 0% chance he can find a severely morbidly obese woman who enjoys humiliating herself in public willing to be in a sexless primary relationship who has fantastic self esteem, so it's not so much that he'd be looking for that on purpose as happen into it anyway. I can definitely think of at least one good fit for him, but him feeling respected in that relationship seems difficult - he wants an aggressive woman with poor boundaries (belching disgustingly to upset other people) who is also good at treating him well. That's the part of it that seems hard to find to me. The rest of it, well I've known a few women who could work with that, especially if he wants to fully financially support them and they can fuck whoever they want. But again, hard to have someone respect you when that's how it's set up.
@9 Yeah, I don't think e-cigs will help anyone quit smoking. But they can help them quit the tar, and the stench, and the second-hand smoke.
@6: wow, i'll have to look up that book. Ethical Slut is the only published one I'm familiar with, but I agree with you that the tone of it can encourage more snark and selfishness that I like in my relationships.
@6: err...*than
I was so outraged by Dan’s lead-off about the bishop who protected the kiddie-rapist that I had to listen to Tim Minchin’s Pope Song in order to cheer up. I recommend it:

WARNING: If you have any reverence for the Pope or find Dan’s potty mouth offensive, this tune is not for you.
God, I am so with you Dan on your extreme hatred of cigarettes. I really really really wish they didn't exist. I went on a road trip this past week with two smokers... do I really have to say anything else? Just waiting on them to finish was annoying. Combine that with the smell, which of course they always think you're just being dramatic about, because they lost their sense of smell years ago. Sorry, sorry, rant over. It was pent up from this past week because of course I never actually complained about it to them as I was trying not to be rude.
I agree with the e-cig recommendation, despite the non-FDA approval, etc. Start with one that actually looks like a cigarette, move to a model that *doesn't* look like a cigarette, then start stepping down the nicotine percentage in the fluid you use. (The main danger of e-cigs isn't so much them exploding, as it is people chain vaporizing with very high-nicotine fluid. Don't do that. There's also a danger of over-medicating/overdosing with nicotine gum. Don't do that, either.) You can treat chemical withdrawal with any number of methods, but the entire physicality of the smoking process is the hardest part of the habit for a lot of people to kick. An e-cig lets you keep the vast majority of that while immediately dealing with the smell/ash/aftertaste issue, and it does allow for finer control of the weaning process than most methods. Generally once you've cut your nicotine level down to nothing, you'll automatically stop having cravings and reaching for the e-cig, as it's stopped giving you any sort of reward. If you have to fall off the wagon, fall in the direction of going back to low-level nicotine fluid for a few days, rather than buying a package of cigarettes. Seriously. Yes, they need to be researched better, but they *have* been researched, and more studies are ongoing. Yes, you're definitely still inhaling many of the same chemicals, but not all of them, and you're not inhaling any fucking tar. And you won't smell or taste like ash.
Re: sex bots, I find the image of an eager old man being first in line to order his belching, morbidly obese fembot incredibly hilarious.
The computer technicians that found kiddy porn on the reverend's computer went to *church officials* instead of the police?

I want to know what tech service it was so we can all start boycotting it.
There is a useful site here, called Polyamory Primer that is useful for helping people understand some things about polyamory. Google it or find it here:

There are other resources around. One word of caution: The best way to ensure that the information in any given document will be apporpriate to give to your parents or other questioning people in your life is to read it yourself and think about what it says, implies, and doesn't say or imply. Go with what works for you, and will make sense to the people you have to show it to.
I am poly and out to my family. They will be meeting my live-in partner's other girlfriend AND having their first experience with both of my partners being at the same place at the same time.. Next weekend, at my 40th bday party!

My parents were baffled and worried about me and my live-in sweetie, but they have met my other sweetie, seen that I am still good with my live-in, and I assume that all will be good this weekend.

Suggestions: approach them with compassion. This is new, different, and scary! Ask them to share their fears.. and rather than addressing the first fear, keep asking, "what else?" with nods and yeses and encouragement to keep sharing... And when their list slows down, ask them to identify the biggest fear. Address this one with their participation, getting a picture of their worst case scenario, then brainstorm actions that would help them get through that horrible scenario. Then ask them to picture a moderately bad situation, and repeat... Then finish with the best case scenario as YOU see it, and ask for their help getting there together.

Show them the love and support you have for them, and let them see the amazing communication skills that poly life has honed... Then work on all of that again with your sister, possibly also encouraging her to read Opening Up to see if it is her own envy of your lifestyle that is coming out in bitterness!

Good luck! Ooh, another resource: contact your local PFLAG group and see if anyone there is prepared to provide poly support too!
I'm with you on how awful cigarettes are. I can't believe it wasn't that long ago that a oerson could smoke almost anywhere. At work, at the dining table, in airplanes was gross. I once dated, one date only, a woman so beautiful it made your eyes hurt. Stunningly drop dead gorgeous, the most beautiful creature ever created. But she smoked and I just couldn't stand it, not even for a second date.

In college they say that, by far, the most relevant consideration of whether roommates will get along is smoking. That includes places where smoking is not allowed in the room. Why, oh why would anyone start smoking? I'll never know!
Loved the podcast because it covers a wide range with minimum cursing :) might someday play for my mum who is always baffled why people would want to talk seriously about 'something like sex'...and discuss openly about 'something like homosexuality'...
The guy who is looking for the obese woman who behaves badly and won't fuck him is really after Ursula from The Little Mermaid, isn't he?
OK, i'm looking at the comments and there's obviously something coming up about smoking. Before my soul and self-confidence are shredded, I need to go grab a cigarette--sigh.
Hahahaha omg...ok, speaking as a smoker, I just want to say, we GET that we smell like smoke, and we get that that is offensive and gross to nonsmokers (actually, I have a lot of friends and I've had a lot of lovers who are nonsmokers who never seemed to mind, but maybe they are all suffering in silence and puking in the bathroom when we hang out/have sex), but non smokers... have a little SYMPATHY. My god, it's hard to quit, and we're not doing it on purpose to BOTHER YOU. We are addicted to smoking cigarettes and it's a reality and a condition that believe us we aren't proud of. There are a myriad of emotional reasons why people start smoking--to fit in, to be cool, as a coping mechanism, as a symptom of another addictive for the person who asks the indignant question "why would ANYONE start smoking!!?" You know perfectly well why people start smoking, don't be such a self-righteous asshole about it. I don't know why the 24 year old on the podcast wants an obese woment to eat things and belch in front of him, but to each his own right? Tell the truth, the idea of that makes me completely sick to my stomach, but you don't see me on here berating him and treating him like a subhuman piece of trash.

@16, why would you plan a road trip with smokers and then act appalled and put out that you had to wait for them to smoke? Fuck you, don't travel with smokers then. You should have been in the car with those people for several hours after NOT letting them smoke and see how much you enjoyed THAT.

I totally understand that smoking is a disgusting habit, but what I think is unfair is how culturally acceptable it has become to harrass, insult, and generally be hateful to smokers, to treat them as second class citizans, when those same rules don't apply to anyone else's habits. If you can't walk by a string of cigarette smoke when someone is outside smoking and tolerate it without coughing loudly or making a face, or SHAMING that person, then I should be able to do the same when I smell your godawful perfume or cologne, or when your child is crying while I'm eating dinner, I should be able to walk up to your table and yell at you to take your screaming brat outside. No one calls out the fat asses eating twinkies or McDonald's hamburgers--no one says to them, "uh, hey you shouldn't eat that, fat ass." But everyone thinks it's perfectly ok, and should be encouraged, to walk up to people you don't even know and tell them how disgusting they are and how they shouldn't smoke. Anyway, sorry, defensive smoker rant!!

To the lady with the smoker husband, do keep encouraging him to quit. I know for me, I quit for a very long time because my boyfriend hated it, and I look back and wish I hadn't started again. (When we broke up I was still not smoking, but I was much younger and started again a couple years later when things got stressful.) But nothing was quite as motivating to me as his hatred of my smoking, so it could work out for you! Look into the e cigarette for sure. Don't listen to these morons who worry about the safety of e cigs. I have a girlfriend who used to smoke all the time and now she uses the e cig, but she uses it far less often, and usually only around me because I smoke. Smoking ANYTHING infrequently has to be better for you than smoking cigarettes. And hopefully you won't be so disgusted by the smell.

Also, keep in mind that his relationship with smoking is a lot more emotional and complicated than you might think. It's not just about the nicotine cravings. Quitting smoking can feel like a loss of identity, it can feel like breaking up with someone. It's hard. If, for you, his smoking upsets you this much and you're going to want him to quit within the next year or may want to think about ending it. It's not going to be that easy, and it's not going to happen overnight.
@12 How do you define "smoking"? As an e-cig vaper (that's what we call it, "vaping", because we "vape" the vaporized juice, not "smoke"), I consider smoking to be the inhalation of burning plant matter, whether that's tobacco in the form of cigarettes, cigars, or pipes, or weed, or cloves, or any other burning shit you might inhale. The vapor I inhale has none of the carcinogens of smoke, only propylene glycol (erroneously referred to as "antifreeze", which it technically is, but it's the food-safe, FDA-approved antifreeze that is in products ranging from cosmetics to asthma inhalers to ice cream, and not the toxic ethylene glycol that you put in your car and kills dogs), vegetable glycerin (also FDA-approved, food-safe, and in just about every product you could imagine), FDA-approved food-safe flavorings, and medical-grade nicotine (as in, pure). The 4000+ chemicals and carcinogens of tobacco smoke are nowhere to be found.

In this scenario, nicotine is literally no more dangerous than the caffeine you get in a cup of coffee (yes, nicotine is toxic in a smaller dosage than caffeine, but both are being used in safe amounts here). Nicotine is not carcinogenic and in fact has benefits as a mild analgesic.

If your definition of "smoking" is "ingesting nicotine in any form", well ... I'll stop vaping when you stop drinking coffee or soda, stop eating fatty or sugary foods, stop drinking alcohol, stop ingesting THC in any manner, etc. Because the health impact of nicotine on its own is roughly equivalent to any of those, and not nearly as bad as some (sugar and fatty foods, for example).
Bella28 nailed it!! And, I read often but had to register so I could say this to the 24 yr old who makes it sound like her boyfriend's smoking habit is ruining her must be nice to not have any other worries in the world, other than the bf puffing on a square. You sound like a total self righteous bitch, your life is that perfect that the worst thing in your universe is his habit? I hope he drops you like it's hot, and hopefully finds someone who doesn't nag him all the gd time. Get real..there's got to be way more important things in life to worry about. You say nothing about his HEALTH..just that YOU find it disgusting. I hope the bf DTMFA!!
To the Guy with the VORE and large woman and no sex kink: i've realized there is just about any kind of kink in online fiction and fanfiction. And not some poor BDSM kink like a certain book. I've seen some super kinky stuff, pages of it written for the masses, online. Most of these writers are women. Single women. I think if you google your kink you may find written work on it in forums or sites like and livejornal and tumblr. Find those writers or bloggers, get to know them, don't get hung up on "oh this person doesn't embody everything i want" ... Hopefully you find a partner and you two can have a symbiotic relationship.
Conservative female pastors should not exist. If the Bible is the inerrant word of God, then according to 1 Tim 2 and 1 Cor 14, God wants women to STFU.