Savage Love Episode 316


Creep - feel free to message her an apologize. Say what Dan said, basically: you came on way too strong, you ignored her cues and crossed her boundaries, blah blah blah. Be clear that you don't need a message back, you just realized you wronged her and want to tell her you're sorry and she didn't deserve to deal with that. I am thinking about how cosy… made me feel. Obviously your apology would be different because this isn't a habitual thing with you, but you get the idea. Shit women deal with regularly and guys rarely take responsibility for. You can show her that some guys do take responsibility, which might make her life slightly better (won't land you with her, especially if you fish, but if you like her so much, don't you think she deserves that?).
wrong advice for telling her to change the phone number if the calls don't stop.

Calls to the phone company and the police can get the number traced. caller-id block is to the recipient of the call, not to the phone company.
@2 For a land line, that's true. Things like Internet "home phone" services ie Vonage that go out when the modem is off and cell phones which many of us use as our only numbers I've been told when similarly harassed cannot be traced.
To the bisexual girl who cheated on her bf (sorry, *ahem* her "partner")---- Dan was waaaaaaay too nice to you. Literally everything you said about your plan to have a threesome was selfish, cruel, and incredibly stupid. If you listened to yourself, it should be crystal clear that your boyfriend is NOT INTERESTED in your plan. It was painful just to listen to. Can you imagine your boyfriend cheating on you with another woman, then turning around and saying "it's ok, honey, we'll have a threesome and it'll make everything better!" No. You would probably be livid at him even bringing it up! For god sakes, he lost his hard-on just at the very mention of your idea. You really think he would be able to even get an erection in her presence???
Agree with #1 - I think Dan got this call wrong.

This woman doesn't share mutual friends with the caller and seemingly isn't in the same social circles since he wasn't worried about her spreading details of their date, his behavior, etc. around. So just "showing her how he really is" won't work in this case, unless he started stalking her, which would be bad. And even if she was in his social circle, him pretending it never happened would come across as him not realizing drunk groping was wrong.

Text this woman! Tell her that you know it may be too little too late, but you felt like you made a horrible impression and are very sorry for your actions, and if she ever wants to try it again you're available. I think the fact that it's 6 months after the fact actually works in your favor: it doesn't come across as you desperately wanting in her pants like it would if this were the next day. Instead, it sounds like you've reflected over this and you truly feel bad for how that night went down, which you do.

Good luck, bud!
She's totally going ahead with the threeway. Minus the boyfriend, of course.
Second caller: speaking up in a third-wheel situation isn't just rude to the third wheel. It can also shatter your chances of sex, because it constitutes a presumption that you're going to have sex. If I were in a situation where the guy I was with told his friend to leave us alone, I might get uncomfortable and start asking myself, "What, does he EXPECT me to put out? Is he that sure?"

It's stupid and immature game-playing, sure, but it's not hard to understand why the caller was loath to make an explicit request of his friend in the moment.
The opposite of an Alpha Dog is an Omega Dog.
How can ANYONE listen to this cunt who wants a threesome and not think, "God I hope I never run into her in real life"? She sounds like a fucking selfish nightmare.
Went to see Nancy Hartunian's picture. Having always thought that the voice behind "You're listening to a Stranger podcast..." was one of the At-Risk youth's voice, I had always immagined an 18-year-old girl (even though you've been doing this for 6 year - you don't age in my immagination) with dreads, tattoos, a nose ring and a tongue piercing. Boy was I ever wrong!! Nice to finally put a face to that sexy voice of yours!!! And thank you for all the work you do with the Strange Love podcast and supporting gay rights.
@10 Ulp!
OK, so it's not just me. Three way woman, you didn't hear a word Dan said. No surprise there, you don't hear a word your BF says either. "He'll let me get away with it, probably" is not the same as "He's happy with it".
thank you nancy hartunian :)

since i am not from the us i technically do not know anyone who phonebanked for this cause, but i at least know your very sexy voice (and this is a gay man talking here so thats saying something) so i wanted to thank you for helping in this cause.
One point that I think got glossed over with respect to "drunk groping"; I think there is often a trend for people to get hung up on a crush for whatever reason (evolution/social conditioning/ scarcity, etc) and end up hoping it will be like the movies where the guy will get the girl in the end because its soul-mates, destiny, fate, shes-the-one etc. I know some guys who land on the extreme opposite end of this argument who would say instead; "go f*$% ten other women". Though this is a pretty crass viewpoint, the idea is that there are plenty of potential partners out there, get out and date as much as possible, open your eyes to what options are out there and also tune up your social skills. You'll end up with more options and in the end if you still want that girl, you'll have the tools and more of an abundance mentality that you might have a shot.
One point I think was glossed over with respect to "drunk groping"; I think often times many of us get fixated on a crush for whatever reason (social conditioning/evolution/scarcity etc.). I know guys who would suggest; "go f*** ten other women". Though this is pretty crude, the idea is to a) open your eyes to the fact that there are so many potential partners out there, and b) sharpen up your social skills. So get out and date, the result will be more options, sharper social skills, and an abundance mindset. If you still want that girl in the end you'll be coming from a way healthier place, not just sitting around pining after her.
The 3-way chick sounds like she's having a dilemma. Common sense and sex don't always mingle well, and that's where Dan Savage comes in.. Anyone whose better judgement has ever been clouded by an "easy" and exciting sexual prospect should be able to understand the need to ask for a little advice.
sorry for the double-posting, oops. maybe someone could remove that for me
That three-way is going to be a total disaster. The caller seems to have no remorse about the previous violation of trust (she says only, "he still brings it up" as if he should have gotten over it). Now she wants to fuck this girl again, but dragging the partner along to make it all okay. He should DTMFA, not for her wanting a three-some (which is fine, done properly) but for her not really giving a shit about where he is emotionally. Dan's advice was fucking spot on. I hope she took it. I doubt it, from the way he said, "How will you feel if he is shattered?" and she replies, "Yeah, yeah, I know." Listen to her voice. She really doesn't take this (the 3-way, her partner's feelings) seriously.
PS this chick thinks her bi-ness is a license to be an asshole. Dan can't call her on that, but it is true. She isn't doing bi people a favor.
I'm embarrassed as a bi person listening to the disaster three-way caller. What a clueless, selfish asshole she is. @19 is totally correct - Dan can't tell her because he'll get jumped on, but this nitwit is totally using her bi-ness as an out for cheating and generally being a horrible partner. I hope that poor dude breaks up with her, preferably before this disastrous three-way happens.
Hahaha, the bi-threesome call was absolutely jaw-dropping. IIRC, there was no mention if the third was bi so we (and Dan) had no idea to know if there was *anything* in it for the boyfriend. "Hey sweetie, remember the person I fucked when I cheated on you - how about I fuck them in front of you - would that be cool?" Maybe just start recording your sessions of infidelity and give the videos to your partner - then it's OK! Great advice, Dan, even if you were a little too gentle.
Confused by Dan's response to the drunk "groper," didn't the guy say that they have zero friends in common and haven't spoken in 6 months? How is he supposed to just see her in social situations? Dan's advice made no sense to me at all, since none of it seemed to apply to the phone call. Did I space out and misunderstand the part where he said "we have no friends in common?"
Also, to Gropey McGee: If my memory is correct and it's been months and months since you last spoke with her, you might want to first accept the possibility that she's partnered now and has no interest in seeing you again, regardless of how well you apologize for your drunken misbehavior. That said, I don't think it would be outside the realm of normal behavior to message her and invite her out for coffee or a very, very casual drink at a neutral location. If she says yes, take it as an opportunity to apologize for your behavior and tell her how much you like her. If she says no, take that at face value and never speak to her again.
Just a comment. Stop saying "transgenered." It's a part of who a person is, not something that is done to them. Someone is gay, not "gayed," or lesbian, not "lesbianed," or bisexual, not "bisexualed."

Small point. Otherwise, awesomeness all around.

Jason in Boulder.
Oh, my boyfriend pretty much did the same thing to me as threesome girl (bringing girl he'd been sleeping with behind my back in for a threesome even though I, and I'm pretty sure she, are straight).
It was actually great sexually and we still do it sometimes, but it would be a lie to say I haven't detached from the relationship a bit as a result.
Yeah, I'm with #5, except I'd give it a year. Nothing wrong with a carefully worded, concise, mature apology. (Hint: don't say "I fucked up.") I wouldn't even say anything about being available. If she's interested she will respond, if not, drop it and don't contact her again. It's still a long, long shot and it's probably not worth the emotional energy once the apology is given. Better to focus on other girls.

One thing that no one has mentioned about the threesome couple: boyfriend seems to have a hard, bright line about girlfriend being with other girls. I know Dan is very understanding about the primary partners and their comfort levels and groundrules. But boyfriend is dating a bi girl, and the chances of pregnancy are nil, and STI's lower, if she sleeps with a girl. His objection seems irrational at best, and, (admittedly, consider the source) perhaps a little unreasonable. If he has some kind of squickiness about same-sex stuff, I don't think that deserves as much "respect" or sympathy as it seems to be getting. I think there's probably a little (or a lot) more interest in non-monogamy on her part than on his and that's going to be a deal-breaker long term.
Dan!!! You had me in tears listening to this at work. I can't convey my Congratulations enough. xxx from Canada.
I stuck my son's ballot in his face and told him he could vote any way he wanted except for R74. If he voted against that, I would kick him out of the house. No thanks needed for that, but I will accept thanks for the "talk" I had with my mother. She finally said she hadn't changed her mind, but would vote in favor of R74 only because I felt so strongly about it. I told her I would take it.

Whenever a segment of society gains equality, we all benefit. And nobody gains equality without a lot of us sticking together. Dan, thanks for sticking up for women's rights even though you will never need to worry about female health issues, or an unplanned pregnancy.

Congrats to you and Terry, and every other same sex couple who will be getting hitched in a matter of days.
@ 26 I think the boyfriend has drawn a hard bright line about girlfriend being with other people in general. It seems like he was upset with his GF cheating on him regardless of the fact that the person she cheated with is a girl. You often hear of arrangements between a straight guy and his bi girlfriend in which his girlfriend can sleep with other girls but not other guys. I always suspect whether or not it is because straight guys generally found lesbian sex less threatening than heterosexual sex (putting aside the risk of STD's and pregnancy) because they don't consider lesbian sex to be "real" sex. Clearly, for the boyfriend in this podcast, that is not the case. He was clearly upset at the fact that she cheated on him in the past. He as upset about her cheating on him as you would expect anyone to be, if their partner had cheated on them with an opposite-sex person. He is also understandably insecure abut his girlfriend maintaining a friendship with the other girl. The caller did not mention that she has ever cheated on him with guys, but if she had and he did not have as much of an emotional reaction then your argument would make a stronger case.
So far I'm reading his behavior as one who values sexual fidelity much higher than his current girlfriend.
@29 yes, I agree. To the caller if she reads this...I was also wondering why Dan didn't bring up the concept that perhaps you two probably won't work out in the end since he seems very interested in monogamy and you do not. Some folks just have that incompatibility. Lots of people are fixating on various things that you said in the conversation and on Dan's comments r.e. power dynamics between you and your boyfriend, but if you want fundamentally different kinds of sexual relationships, it may not be possible for him to come around to your way of thinking even if he wants to try to do so in order to keep you. The fact that he's still holding a grudge for the cheating suggests that...
What others have said re the bi cheater/threesome girl: well said.

There is one other thing, too: did anybody else notice that the boyfriend is clear that he doesn't even like this other woman? The gf said something like "he admits she has a hot body, but he hates her personality". Leaving aside the fact that he's being asked to like somebody that fucked his girlfriend (which is a shocking level of arrogant cruelty on the gf's part) he's also being pressured into sex with someone he has made clear he dislikes.

Look, stupid caller: most guys love the idea of a threesome. The fact that your guy is doing everything but putting up a billboard outside your door that says NOT WITH THAT WOMAN! NO! should tell you something. Not that I think you'd notice such a billboard (you haven't so far) or that you'd give a fuck about anyways.
Oh, and personal to Dan:
One of the things which has drawn you so many of your fans is that you're, well, savage. You're about the only advice person out there that doesn't run like a deer from calling women out on bullshit when they do it, (most of 'em want to condemn men and therapy-speak women for exactly the same conduct) and isn't afraid to be a brute to people who are acting like shit to others.

Please, please, please don't turn yourself into Prudie or others like her. Please? The threesome caller was an oblivious, selfish monster and you gave her a therapy session about seeing it through gender role. Put the fucking boot in, for God's sake. That is one of things that people love about you.
Oh, and maybe if he likes threesomes that will be the girlfriend's license to once again shove the disliked girl back into his face, "and maybe he will have warmed to her .. he might develop some affection for her" ??????????

Seriously, Dan, WTFF? For christ's sake, could that advice be any douchier? I've met a few people whose cancer led them to better things in their lives but they don't want the cancer back.
@29: It's not necessarily because the boyfriend doesn't think lesbian sex is "real." Sometimes it's just because it's different enough that it doesn't cause direct comparison between their skills. My boyfriend would feel insecure about his skills in bed if I started fucking another guy because he'd wonder if he wasn't doing enough for me, but he realizes that if I want to have fun with a pussy, he can't provide that for me. If we were for reals poly, I would be pretty perturbed if his other partners were too much like me as well- the more like me a person is, the easier it is to get into better/worse than comparison with that person, and that could make anyone insecure.

Honestly, though, a hot bi girl shouldn't bother being with a completely monogamous person if she doesn't want that. There are so many great people out there who are willing to let such a person sleep with whatever gender they're not.

To the grope-y guy: you can text her an apology, but don't text anything but that. I thought I heard you say that you're NOT likely to be in contact ever again, so leave it there.
I'm with # 32 here - please continue to be a bitch, Dan. If you try to please all your critics, you'll lose your edge, and they still will find something to complain about, because complaining is what they do. Time to listen to Ricky Nelson - "I remember the night when we walked in the sands of the Waikiki..." No, wait, it's "you can't please everyone so you've got to please yourself".
@ 34 I agree with that point as well. My main point in my original post is that a lot of straight guys just don't equate hetero sex with lesbian sex. So whatever insecurities they might have about heir girlfriend sleeping with other people is assuaged by the fact that the other people are women.
@34 and @36: True, for many men, and in many circumstances. However this gf doesn't have that excuse: the bf was bothered so much that he still brings it up, quite some time later. (btw, I'm actually sympathetic to the gf on this one, even given the cheating: a cheated-on partner should either dump or forgive. A passive-aggressive drip-drip-drip of recrimination is to be avoided. Then again, he may be bringing it up only because she keeps bringing up fucking this woman again.)
Actually, on further reflection, didn't gropey-boy sleep over even after making a fool of himself? If so, you're done with her. Even if you're the hottest guy she can imagine, you've indelibly proven to her that you are capable of not respecting her boundaries. Move on and learn from this not to make the same mistake with another girl.
Whooosh...that's the sound of everything Dan was saying going right over "three-way" girls head.
Is it just me, or do the callers in this episode have really annoying voices to listen to? Thank god for Nancy Hartunian at the end.
Cool to see that Nancy has the face to go with that Jessica Rabbit voice. :3
Hum... Nancy... What does "ulp" mean?
Meh, threesome girl clearly doesn't care about her boyfriend, so no use beating her over the head for it. Maybe the boyfriend will find someone who takes his feelings into account in the future. But her attitude -- "he'll let me get away with it; he'll get over it" -- seems to suggest she's not terribly invested in this relationship, but will enjoy it while he's willing to put up with her BS.
@37: I absolutely agree that she really shouldn't sleep with this girl if she wants this relationship, but I also think that if she wants to fool around with women and have a boyfriend, she should dump this guy. It's one thing for a bi girl to be with a guy who demands total monogamy when she wants that as well; it's quite another when she doesn't really want to be sexually monogamous but he does.

That said, he might be a lot cooler with her fooling around with other girls if she fooled around with one he didn't dislike. I think that can rub anyone the wrong way...
Hands up whose heart melted just a little at Dan getting all teary. I am straight and not even American and not even living in America and I donated to Washington for Marriage in your honor Dan. Many congratulations to you and family x
Wow... the threeway girl is just awful.
Watched the Wrecked webseries and found it especially relevant. Just donated the show's second season through kickstarter, but the production company is still under their goal with only one more day left. Support them if you can because America needs more shows like this.
Yeah, Dan, definitely made me cry there at the end. Congratulations -- I'm so happy for you guys.
My god, how people get so involved. I have to say that it would make me happy listening to these erotic audio sounds of female orgasms. That's why I listen at my favourite website!