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800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
Regardless, I have obviously found many MANY women attractive, but I have never been so crass to refer to their looks. Like #3 said, it's creepy.
@7 It has nothing to do with "weak-character," you ass.
I've yet to see evidence that men want to be desired by undesirable women.
Lol!
Let me think of a tasteful way of saying this...
You are a douchebag.
...and yet he dots his "i"s in his letter with little circles like a 12 year old girl.
THAT is a manifestation of why pretty ladies find him scary.
That's what happens when unsolicited compliments are too specific. You come off sounding like Buffalo Bill.
If the man wants to live in a world where women's sexuality is totally voluntary and none of us find strangers' discussions of our bodies to imply the threat of physical harm, maybe he should donate to NOW or Men Can Stop Rape or something. I can't get worked up about a person being deprived of their God-given right to get a warm glow from complimenting people.
to NOT be creepy when complimenting a woman's body you probably need to be:
a) a woman (and even then it can be creepy)
b) a gay dude (and well groomed), which is basically the same as a)
c) a good-looking eligable male who understands that they are fully hitting on the woman
I just want to agree with Elizabeth, Elianara, Olive, etc. A "compliment" on specific body parts from a stranger -- when you are not out at a club or in a situation where it's clear you're in the market for that kind of attention -- is just creepy to women. Because I don't know you, and I don't know if you're a nice guy or a violent, unstable psycho, and in my experience, nice guys generally don't open with a "I like those hips, pretty lady." At least not if they want me to talk to them.
Also, note to guys on the street: if you want to say something mildly innocuous and flirty, like, "Hello, beautiful," and you want any chance of a smile or a returned greeting, I cannot stress this enough: Say it to my FACE, not my ASS! Saying it once I've walked past just ensures I'll ignore you and think you're a total asshole.
Had to vent. But seriously, has Roy asked his wife this same question (does he actually have one?) and if so, does she honestly appreciate it when strange men comment on her body parts? There's a HUGE difference between harmless flirting (which is mutual, and often begins as totally non-sexual playful conversation) and harassment, which is one-sided and uninvited and creepy. It astounds and kind of frightens me that someone who's been married 30 years would not understand the difference.
dammit, fnarf, i gotta start shopping at YOUR grocery store.
This letter reminds me of construction workers who leer and hoot and then ask why women aren't flattered. I hope Roy reads Slog and not just Savage Love.
Scary, maybe you can help me decide which of these cucumbers is fully ripe?
OK, am I creepy enough now?
But guys will just as rudely ignore women who do the same. Or laugh in their face. It depends if their buddies are around.
But Ray? He's another problem altogether. I'm thinking even if he is goodlooking, that "nice hips" comment makes him seem creepily dangerous.
When you compliment a stranger's style, you are doing two things: 1) commenting on their personal taste and 2) letting them know you share it. You've actually validated something that's a choice, given them insight about your own taste, and offered a way to open a conversation. They now know you both like tee-shirts with anthropomorphic fruit, or purple combat boots, or what have you, and you can go from there. Whereas if you comment on someone's body, what are they supposed to say? Thanks, my genes like to know they expressed themselves to your satisfaction? I'll think of you when I'm on the elliptical?
2... I am a gay guy, very good looking, trim, 6feet 2in and eyes of bright blue and very butch. A bit of gray at the temples. Banter with older women is all OK, but, should I even ask directions, time of day, or make a random comment at the check stand - the younger ones get rigid and look like they just ate a lot of ice. Really. The last thing I want is their tits or pussies.
Seattle women make being gay a harvest here ... poor straight guys, and I bet they nag and nag and nag. And play the I am womon thing to the max...
Read the comments, the responses to poor old Ray are just hostile shit, from mostly ugly bags.
if the guy with the smile who offeres the comment is your taste, the night will go smoothly
if not, you say thanks with grace and charm and move on
simple
and believe me, I know from where I speak.... yup, genes and hard work growing up seem to have done a good job creating super rounded ass
there is not need to be rude at all
I don't pay attention to the dating and mating rituals of the hets, but it seems loaded with weird stuff, money, job, prime looking, education, nice car, you pay the bill, too coy forever - tons of old shit - lucky they ever get to sex after they get out of college
The posts are about dating, compliments, and how and why some women seem to lack the grace to repond with charm vs. the hard core old fuck you fuck off to a compliment, even a poorly worded one.
Bet you get few about anything. Nothing to do with
misogny at all - of course - the word of last resort is to assume that. Such charm under pressure.
Remember I am gay, not even slightly interested in a come on, and, like Ray, have wondered what is the hostile aloof thing about. None of my lesbian friends, and I have many, ever project all that attitude about anything.
If you told a lesbian she had nice hips, chances are she would shake her butt at you and make a good joke out of the not so cool remark....
I thought it was all very fine until I noticed the circles over the i's and that the "compliment" was "nice hips".
Nice hips? WTF?
Huff huff huff. No formula for getting laid often and well.
I'm extremely goodlooking, so . . . you're wrong. But then, I'm not rude when anyone compliments me. But then again, some guy in a grocery store has never said, "Nice hips" to me. Hmm.
@44. there is not need to be rude at all
Absolutely right, there is no need to be rude. Except often, straight guys--depending on age--tend to take a gracious, charming "no thank you," as not exactly serious. Often, they'll keep at you, smile back, say something else flirtatious. After a girl has put up with that once or twice or thrice, she tends to be a little more blunt in her "no thanks." I'm not saying this is always the situation. There are vicious bitches out there who love nothing better than to emasculate unattractive guys who "dare" to speak to them. And I could say the same if the genders were reversed.
But honestly, comparing the "rules" of straight meat markets with gay ones is simply . . . well, there's no comparison.
Not necessarily because I would be afraid for my safety, but because here is this weird dude sexualizing me in this completely non-sexual environment.
It could maybe be done in a non-creepy way. Maybe. But the odds of a guy being able to pull it off are small, and the odds of this guy being able to pull it off are non-existent.
I think you misunderstood me. When I receive an unsolicited compliment, even a creepy one about a specific body part (which I get often because I am 23, hot, and have DDs) I kindly laugh it off and continue on my way.
The point I was trying to make is that you are a misogynist dickhole.
Hope that clears everything up.
Cheers!
Creepy is creepy.
Unless you have already established a personal relationship with a woman, commenting on sexualized body parts (tits, ass, hips, legs, lips, etc) is a big NO. Random dude in the grocery store or at the bus stop can tell me things like "you have a nice smile", "I like your scarf", "you look wonderful", etc. Same random dude canNOT tell me "you have beautiful hips" without me reaching for pepper spray.
And before sommeone gets all pissypants about me being defensive, YOU try living a carefree life in society knowing full well that there are people walking around who would like nothing better than to rape you/grope you/beat you/kill you/keep you in a pit in a basement just because of your gender. I don't think about it much, but when some whackadoodle guy in his 50s at the bus stop who dots his i's with circles and writes letters on legal pads to sex columnists tells me I have beautiful hips, I make sure I have one hand on pepper spray and the other on my cell phone. It's JUST FUCKING CREEPY.
Yes sir. I'm sorry, sir. No, sir, I don't know what came over me. No, sir, I did not realize that it took you three hours to stack all those peaches. Yes, I will pay for everything, sir.
People tend to shop when they're just off work, and they're tired, and they'd rather be at home with a bucket of chicken and a season of their favourite tv show on dvd. When people are in an environment that is inherently social, like a nightclub, rejecting a well-intentioned compliment without so much as a smile or polite acknowledgment is pretty rude. But at a grocery store, at my mechanics, at the dentists - I'm just thinking about getting done and getting home.
I knew I married him for a reason.
What younger straight women you might be catching attitude from, don't know you, & therefore can't know the revulsion their genitals cause you. You pitch them vague negativity because of them havin' tits & pussies. Since most gay men of my experience project charm & warm wit to the gay-sympatico, these girls are likely picking up your hostility & misreading it for potential rape-level interest in those icky parts of theirs. 'cause that's what you live with when you're female.
There is still misogyny runnin' rampant in the land of the gay boys. Too bad. It's so tired. I had a circle of catty queens who used to love telling "fish" jokes & trail off just as I walked into the room. One day I got mad enough that I just said, for all your talk about pussies, you all seem to forget you crawled outta one of those..& gave them a graphic repeat of Margaret Cho's take on childbirth. Really graphic. For about 5 solid minutes. It ends with - "And then, her pussy exploded!" *miming picking up bits of pussy from around the room* The jokes ended after that.
Get over your gay hot woman-hating self, buddy, 'cause THAT'S ugly. Your lesbian pals nor your gayness do not invalidate you from being a sexist oinker.
What younger straight women you might be catching attitude from, don't know you, & therefore can't know the revulsion their genitals cause you. You pitch them vague negativity because of them havin' tits & pussies. Since most gay men of my experience project charm & warm wit to the gay-sympatico, these girls are likely picking up your hostility & misreading it for potential rape-level interest in those icky parts of theirs. 'cause that's what you live with when you're female.
There is still misogyny runnin' rampant in the land of the gay boys. Too bad. It's so tired. I had a circle of catty queens who used to love telling "fish" jokes & trail off just as I walked into the room. One day I got mad enough that I just said, for all your talk about pussies, you all seem to forget you crawled outta one of those..& gave them a graphic repeat of Margaret Cho's take on childbirth. Really graphic. For about 5 solid minutes. It ends with - "And then, her pussy exploded!" *miming picking up bits of pussy from around the room* The jokes ended after that.
Get over your gay hot woman-hating self, buddy, 'cause THAT'S ugly. Your lesbian pals nor your gayness do not invalidate you from being a sexist oinker.
Oh yeah, & Roy - NEVER A BODY PART. Wanna give a nice, general, non-creepy compliment? To a stranger? I only think that's good if you've already caught someone's eye, & definitely your whole attitude projected has got to be neutral, & hanging back. Sadly, even a too-friendly grin or lurch in the compliment-ee's direction can be seen as off. Just something generic with a quick smile - nice car, nice jacket, nice jeans, good haircut, great glasses, if said right, can fill in for nice legs, great hair, pretty eyes. As well as emphasizing that person's taste, like mentioned above. & if you're at all innocently flirting, the flirtee will at that point say something back. In most cases, they stare down their nose & walk away. Try a diner, waitresses have to flirt for tips. But keep things general.
It's the end of the world. If they were able to compare this feeling to the feeling women get when men do it to them, I think their understanding of the affects of their comments would be much much different.
Enough said.
You sure have a fine big ass. It totally gets my dick nice and hard.
i rarely harsh out on somebody. and you've prolly gotten it by now..but if you've been doing this for 30 years now and still don't have a clue ( ..and you're married to boot.) then it bears repeating ..
DUDE for reals.. unless you're gay ( and gay mens know better and do better..) .. just nod, wink and move on.
seriously.. say no more.. just don't.
"cool sweater"
"your hair looks nice" (to someone i know a bit)
"cool bag"
"nice bike. did you grow up with that bike?" ("maybe!")
there. you see how easy that is?
Sorry to spoil your passe so old construct, but, in Seattle straight guys get hit on all the time by gay men. It is part of a MODERN and COOL city.
Decorum says they smile and they thanks and that your attention is a compliment, but, no thanks.
Happens that way all the time in mixed bars, on the street, in parks, dog walking, shopping at QFC, and in low key social settings. All the time.
Reading these posts, there are a lot of social misfits, and, it seems they don't even know it. Gay men have a lot to offer if they might listen. We have taken the cruise, polite conversation and good mannered social mingling to much better levels.
Life teaches too that most guys will swing a little, so all that defensive shit is so out of date. Most men in Seattle seem know that, the trade types who are matter of fact, are all over the place... and can be a lot of fun.
Great, I fee so complimented, such a healthy horny guy-to-guy response. But my ass isn't big, just nicely rounded & trim, very hairy hairy, some pimples, and rarely fucked.
Thanks, but no thanks.
above, does not live in Seattle
And yes Roy, saying someone's hips are nice is creepy. A woman's hips are the way they are for the purpose of bearing a child. The fact (as mentioned previously) that you place a circle over each i in your letter like a little girl would only makes you seem like one deranged, unsocialized freak who is a potential danger to children everywhere. Sorry buddy.
He claimed he was just being gallant when he tried to flirt with my friends. Without exception, they found it creepy, and soon preferred to get together ANYWHERE but at my place. Roy's wife must be as clueless as he is, and they deserve each other.
--let's put a stick of dynamite up Hillary's vagina
-ooooh she's conceding - she ought to gets on all fours so Barack can give it to her doggy style! She should stick her ass in the air so Barack can lick it!
--my how big her ass looked in a certain photo on a runway
-- hey Barack's caucus is bigger than hers.....
Autofill: pot/kettle; glass/houses; irony/urban hipsters/clueless/ Beavis/Butthead.
Yawn. In sum, while being so rightetous and correctly condemning others for their poor taste and loserdom, um, try to have just a smidgeon of cluefulness and self awareness. OK? Thank you.
Unity y'all.
I can't tell you how many times--JUST THIS WEEK--that I've wanted to walk up to the same guy and go "FANTASTIC ass! Where can I get some?" *
But being a guy and not knowing if he's gay or not, it doesn't seem like so much a compliment as asking for trouble.
*His being a total humpmonster in all other regards doesn't hurt, either.
But, man.
That ass.
Some random thoughts: If I ever complimented someone on his or her skin, I'd surely be wondering how I could achieve such luminescence myself, and would soon follow the compliment with questions about water intake, diet, antioxidants, and exercise.
I save any other "body part" compliments for people I know well, and with whom such rapport has been established.
BUT . . . The wall I always run into with this is the fact that most days, I would KILL to be objectified, to be looked upon as the sum of my (potential) fulfillment of the the appetites of the onlooker. I realize that this may be a luxury, a function of male privilege; being of the objectifying class, I've never experienced the downside, perhaps, of being on the receiving end of that gaze. But we are all objects as well as subjects, and we all--I think--encounter other organisms and apprehend them, at least partially, as objects which we, as subjects, may theoretically put to use. If we're properly capable of empathy, we quickly realize that those we encounter are also subjects with their own interests to fulfill; if we're properly socialized, we choose very carefully how we express our interests and observations.
All of which is to say that, yeah, Roy's being kinda creepy. But he doesn't exactly strike me as dangerous, just socially inept. We in the liberal/gay/arts/(post)punk/transgressive/indie community (and whatever permutation I may have neglected to mention) have gotten a lot of mileage from the notion that some normative standards are there to be violated, but we're right quick to enforce our own when it suits us. That's probably well and good, but the resulting environment of shifting norms can make it hard to know which social graces are still in play, or where one reasonably draws the line between impulse and speech.
I guess I have no argument here. I understand perfectly well why people were up in arms regarding Roy's letter, but some of the replies had me feeling a little sympathy for the ol' lech, and it got me thinking (clearly not a good idea). As you were. :)
Jen, the topic has transcended the letter long ago ... Roy is incidental
Post launch, deal
Women shouldn't have to spell out for guys that when strange men approach them, there is often an element of fear for our physical safety that isn't there for guys when women compliment them. If you really don't get this, then you should, I don't know, read "I Blame the Patriarchy" or something.
I threw the shirt away as soon as I got home.
But I always cringe at "shouldn't have to spell out" pronouncements, if only because they remind me of Christians, Natural Law advocates, and others who seem to believe that there's such a thing as a self-evident truth. Rules of engagement--any kind of rule, for any kind of engagement--are social constructs. If we know them and understand them, it's because they've been taught to us; if we fuck 'em up, well, they've obviously not been taught very well, and someone surely should have spelled it out. Maybe not by you, per se--why should you have to be anyone's teacher (let alone everyone's)?--but someone.
That said, there are certainly tools out there who don't take well to the lessons at hand. I think we can also agree that there are degrees of impropriety, including some play around the "line" that separates raffishness from churlishness.
It's easy to see how some guys get confused when you read remarks like this. Basically, 65's attitude is that coming on to her makes you a creep- unless she thinks you are hot. It leaves enough leeway that confident guys might go for it and see what happens.
Personally, I negotiate these turbulent estrogen-laced waters by keeping my mouth shut and not complimenting anyone. I'm no rapper, yo.
And then the women just seem to follow.
Appropriate compliments to give to the opposite sex? "Nice tattoo!" I like tattoos, people who have tattoos really like tattoos. Face is ... ok. But you usually need to establish some rapport.
If you are going to compliment a body part, you need to build SOME semblence of trust and pretext and intentions. Friendly gestures can be ok, so long as you have trust. Unless it's an older woman who obviously puts effort into being fit, just be coy about it.
jessica - HA! :
"And before sommeone gets all pissypants about me being defensive, YOU try living a carefree life in society knowing full well that there are people walking around who would like nothing better than to rape you/grope you/beat you/kill you/keep you in a pit in a basement just because of your gender. I don't think about it much, but when some whackadoodle guy in his 50s at the bus stop who dots his i's with circles and writes letters on legal pads to sex columnists tells me I have beautiful hips, I make sure I have one hand on pepper spray and the other on my cell phone. It's JUST FUCKING CREEPY."
HILARIOUS! jessica for the win!
NOW STOP?!?
I think it's nice to be noticed.
Oh...and did I mention his FABULOUS ass?
Yes, 90, but as Kerri said: "When people are in an environment that is inherently social, like a nightclub...." a well-intentioned compliment might be welcome. My first comment to Terry was a creepy compliment—potentially. But But we were in a location—Re-bar—where slightly creepy compliments were not necessarily unwelcome. And when Ginger said, "Say something to him!", the hot boy with the long hair and the huge mouth and the big eyes looked at me and smile/smirked in a "go for it" way. So I did. And so did he.
And lucky me.