one of the couples under attack is a girl almost 18 and her husband of 23

by that standard, age difference a lot of gay gay couples are in trouble

these break away mormons are on thin ice with the old guys and younger women, but, have publicly disavowed this in the future

truth be told,in any city in America there are thousands of pregnant teen aged girls, for what it is worth, seemingly a bigger problem than this tiny sect in the Texas desert

if we are at risk of the law for what is happening in our neighbors house or even others in our church, wow, what a slippery slope

I may have my own perspective, but my granny was married at 16 and raised a fine family - and my mom married at 17 and did the same - neither at all connected to church stuff

modern girls are having tons of intercourse at ages of 14-16 - get ready for biology to have a say in the matter

some of these old guys will go to prison - and should - but the others seem to stretch the age thing

remember the age of consent for girls in some states is as low 14, in some and up to 17 in others - and that is civil law

and why did they take away all the boys - infants and little boys - at no risk of anything it would seem?

Oh Dawn, not on Christmas.

"None of this polygamy crap would be happening if it were illegal for gay people to get married in Utah."

You mean 'legal' right?

No. "legal" makes sense. Tho I had to read it three times to be sure.

I mean illegal makes sense.

Abuse? But they're doing exactly what the bible commands.

Wait -- gay marriage is illegal in Utah? Then why do they keep insisting that legalizing gay marriage will *lead* to polygamy? You mean, they've already got polygamists without gay marriage? What? Huh?

Back in 2002 while visiting Zion National Park I detoured to Hildale Utah/Colorado City Arizona, two towns straddling the state line that I had read about and wanted to see for myself to believe.

These towns are home to members of a Mormon fundamentalist sect that broke away when the mainstream LDS renounced polygamy in 1890. They settled this geographically isolated area to put them as far out of reach of the authorities as possible. The Arizona Strip, i.e. the NW corner of the state north of the Colorado River, is effectively cut off from the rest of Arizona by the difficulty in crossing the Grand Canyon and so is the perfect place to practice an oddball religion. Most people zip through the area on I-15 heading to or from Las Vegas or stick to the North Rim of Grand Canyon National Park.

Polygamy is the order of the day as middle aged men marry teenage brides. Teenage boys are routinely expelled from the community ostensibly for such sins as watching a movie or playing video games but really to reduce competition for the girls. These guys are totally unprepared for life outside this bizarro-world place and often end up homeless in Vegas or Phoenix. The girls, of course, end up pregnant by rape. Their stories are much like those in the Texas compound. Rates of mental retardation for their kids are high due to inbreeding in this remote community that would rival deepest Appalachia.

On my visit I noticed large houses with lots of added on rooms to accommodate the large families (business probably booms at the nearest Home Depot). The men and boys wore the standard male American wardrobe of jeans, T shirts and baseball hats, but the women and girls wore 1800s style pinafores and bonnets. And the streets were as wide as four lane freeways, but I guess this is common in Mormon Land--if you plan to use a crosswalk in Salt Lake City, pack a lunch and a bottle of water.

I didn't get out of my car since I felt like a sitting duck with my Washington plates and Al Gore bumper sticker left over from the 2000 election. I've read Children of the Corn and have seen enough movies involving visitors to strange towns getting chased by locals wielding torches and pitchforks to know better. Most of the locals I saw were kids playing in their yards, but I could see adults I passed from my rear view mirror continuing to watch my car as I drove up the main street.

I don't regret making my excursion, but this place completely freaked me out. Has anyone else out there ever been?

@8
sorry, rainman, was going to read the post but think I'll wait for the movie.

27
Dan, you silly knave. You have blundered onto the whole crux of the matter...
If Mormons tried to get polygamy legalized they would be run out of the country (again) and they know it.
However, if gay marriage is legalized polygamy inevitably will follow with nary a peep.
Hense the Plan:
The Mormons campaign against gay marriage. (Did you notice?) The Conservatives Christians love them for it. The Homosexuals freak out, persecute Mormons (further earning them sympathy from the CC) pull strings (crooked judges, fiats from Obama, etc) to get gay marriage legalized. Polygamy follows. Mormons get what they want and are hailed as heros by the CC to boot.
Dan, you probably never realized you were a teeny tiny cog in the Mormon Master Plan. But don't think for a second you are not appreciated.
BWA HAHA HAHAHAHA !!!!!

@1 - being a sexually active teenager of your own free will is one thing. Marrying someone of your own free will when you're a teenager is another. Being married off and required to submit to sex is another.

They are not the same thing.

@14, The age of consent in Texas is fourteen but the age differential between the victim and perp is 3 years. So that would be age 17 at most.

According to "The Salt Lake Tribune" "The report says two (of the girls) were 12 when they married; three were 13; two were 14 and five were 15." So five were unable to consent at all and the others were married to men who were more than +3 years. Still pervy and creepy. Still a crime...even if consensual, which is highly unlikely.

Sorry that should have been @ #1. My bad.

one of the points is that no teen under a certain age cann consent under the law - no matter what or where or who

and that applies to all teens, no just those living in a communal setting

so why just go after the communal living persons? one standard needs to apply to all

read the SLC papers tonight, more info - 40 of 55 young women took the required classes on sexual permission and the age of consent - that sounds like good intentions

the church leadership vows they will no longer perform marriages where the girl is under age

several comments indicate these are "spiritual marriages" and not consumated at the young age, but, more like pledging

I do not disagree with stopping the old guys preying on very young girls, but, I can see where a 17 year old might find her partner in his mid twenties and that could be just dandy for both, and does not require the intervention of Rangers with machine guns to question the matter

and there is no logic why they took all the boys, infants and toddlers included, if the risks were to teen girls

a lot of the theory of this fiasco in Texas to me sounds like a form of hatred of the religion, which, for sure is not Texas Southern Baptist ...

also, I suspect the locals want the ranch this group bought ... drive them away, buy the property cheap??

Merry Christmas

@14 - The "drive them away, buy the land cheap" motivation is a possibility. It's kind of an American tradition.

Sure, the *law* says no teen under a certain age can consent to sex. Nevertheless, they do consent all the time. If two 13-year-olds have consensual sex and neither one is old enough to consent legally, then who is breaking the law? If it's a 13-year-old and an adult (18 or older), that is different. The adult is supposed to know better. That includes the parents of the 13-year-old who gave their daughter away in marriage. That points to a culture of child abuse, and justifies taking away all the children.

Maybe some of these marriages are "spiritual only." The ones that produced children are not.

A couple excerpts from the MSNBC article:

1) "The individual investigations, which covered 146 families, concluded that 91 families had children who were abused or neglected. Crimmins said that conclusion confirmed what investigators initially suspected — that girls were being forced into underage marriages and other children were exposed to that harm.

The case "is about sexual abuse of girls and children who were taught that underage marriages are a way of life," the agency said in its report. "It is about parents who condoned illegal underage marriages and adults who failed to protect young girls — it has never been about religion."

2) The children were returned to their parents in June after the Texas Supreme Court ruled the state had overstepped in removing all the children when it only had evidence of abuse or neglect involving about a half-dozen girls. Many of the children were boys or younger than 5.

Since the investigations, most of the 200 parents have been through parenting classes and signed agreements promising to protect their children from alleged abusers. All but 19 of the children's cases have been dropped from court oversight because the agency believes they can be kept safe.

Just finishing up Under The Banner Of Heaven right now. And I'm am fucking frightened of those people. They multiply like rabid rabbits and they are trying to SAVE everyone. Nothing scarier than a fanatic.

24 hours without a reply. Yay, I win!