I can't decide if stupid police are more psychotic or if psychotic people are more stupid.

I'd chalk this one up as, "we need to figure things out on both sides before we don costumes and start shooting."

Police out here shot at three guys who were shooting their guns into the air for new years. They weren't ever pointing their guns at the officers, they just didn't drop them fast enough.

@CHZA The speed at which the bullet leaves the gun is equal to the speed at which it hits the ground. Thus, shooting guns into the air is like firing down into a crowd. Really, really dangerous. And deadly. How long should the police give people who are shooting into a crowd?

This will get Officers Klink and Schultz transferred to the Russian front for sure!

@3 well, shooting into a crowd has a significantly different probability of hitting someone than shooting into the air.... and in most cases has a significantly different motivation. these are two factors i'd hope you agree should be considered.

because, after all, shooting a gun accidentally into the air is similarly just exactly like intentionally firing directly into a crowd, according to your logic. i'd hate to see what penalty you'd prescribe for accidentally discharging a weapon.

so, back to the nazi guy. a bunch of people said, "well done police!" when they first read this story because certainly a nazi was crazy and deserved to die -- thus clearly the police were telling the truth about him aiming at them.

but now we know he may have not been a nazi. in fact, it sounds like he was college student playing war in the yard, with toy bullets.

maybe he wasn't aiming at the police. maybe he was. i don't think this is as clearcut as first thought by some.

he was a hipster.

he was a nerd.

He was an idiot.

a kid -- playing with his friends on new years day. shit.

i've worn old military jackets before. and i've certainly played with (fake) guns.

maybe he did do something stupid, and i'll feel bad for the officers for having to take a life. but just the fact that they call him a nazi means the were jumping to conclusions.

one of those conclusions lead to a death.

@3/5 the speed of the bullet means nothing when shooting straight up. It will stop traveling up and return to the ground accelerating to its terminal velocity at close to 32'/s/s. While painful, a bullet falling due to gravity does not strike with lethal force.

The nerd/hipster with a gun and Nazi uniform was educated, and yet a fool for not realizing the combination is dangerous. That is NOT to say he deserved it... but c'mon, what's a cop to think in that situation?

what's a cop to do?

how about try not to shoot first when they see a youth playing with guns as toys.

since we weren't there it is difficult to say. but anyone -- ANYONE -- needs to be given an opportunity to drop the weapon.

since this kid was not crazy, i'm wondering if he was given that opportunity.

what's a cop to do? give that opportunity.

@3: Has there been an Ask Mr. Science column about that? Because it seems kind of hard to believe; there's an explosion in the beginning to send the bullet up, but the trip back down would only have gravity going for it....

sadly, his myspace page answer to the question, "How long do you think you'll live?" was

"Less than a year, honestly"

Give that opportunity? Have you ever seen someone coming towards you with a gun that you can only assume is loaded? How about someone with a gun who also happens to be dressed in a German military costume? I wonder if you would be able to calmly think..."gee this is probably just some kid with a gun he's using as a prop loaded with blanks. i think I'll give him a chance to show me". Or would you protect your own life?
Let's just say if you're in a wierd costume and carrying a gun, you should drop it before the cops even ask.

@12

how do you know the cops shot first without telling the guy to put down his weapon? were you there?

and given the opportunity to drop his gun? uh, you see cops and you're holding a gun - drop it asap. this "kid" as you call him was in college. i'd hope that anyone making it that far in life, especially one who feared the cops, would have freed their hands of all weapons at the first site of a cop or cop car.

the guy didn't deserve to die but he should have used some common sense.

While painful, a bullet falling due to gravity does not strike with lethal force.

Except for when it does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon%27s…)

Shooting bullets in the air is extremely dangerous and does kill people.

I can't find his Myspace, is it on MyDeathSpace yet?

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fus…

Since this is 2009 and not 1942, the first thing I'd think if I saw a guy in a Nazi uniform (at 2AM! In Seattle! On New Year's fucking eve!) is that he was wasted and maybe had a weird sense of humor. I know cops are paranoid, and probably need to be, but a Nazi uniform is about as threatening as a Winnie the Pooh costume.

Of course, pointing a gun and bayonet at a cop is pretty stupid (if that's what actually happened). When dealing with the police, it should always be remembered that they are 1) armed, 2) on edge, and 3) not required to have high intelligence to get hired. I'm not saying all cops are stupid, but I am saying that for your personal health and safety, they should be given a wide berth. Do not joke with the police. They might not get it and kill you.

Ehhhh I dunno. After looking at all of his pictures I'm kinda glad he's dead.

Yeah, I said it.


I also enjoy that he appears to be a minority and would have himself been gassed by the Nazis.

King 5 News just bookended the story about this Nazi costume guy with an update about Naveed Afzal Haq, the Jewish Community Center shooter who killed 6.

Stay classy, King 5.

By the time the Police have to show up at ANY THING the "Thing" has gotten WAY WAY WAY out of hand. Here we have an example of a young man not thinking about anything other than pulling stupid stunts (to impress the ladies no doubt) for SO long that others felt compelled to call the police.

Being shot to death for acting like an ass with a gun is WAY WAY WAY over reacting, but the police don't know if the gun is real or not. The Young man should have dropped down flat on the ground when the police showed up (smart) but he did not (dumb) and now his weak mental genes will not be added to the gene pool.

Why don't they have 'webbed-net guns' in all cars so they can try non-lethal force first?

I have no problem with him being dead. Any fuck who celebrates the Nazi's like he did, hiding behind this "history buff" bullshit, deserves to die.

Man, nothing like kicking the year off with some knee-jerk social darwinism from the bottom feeders of the Stranger comment section. Shame on all of you for condemning the dead based on such limited information. Miles was a very sweet and caring guy and this is a horrifying accident, no one "deserves" to get shot to death on the street at 2 in the morning for shooting blanks on New Years Eve, less dangerous than fireworks. That the police officers are on administrative leave should give us some idea of the official interpretation of this terrible tragedy. Cops have a very scary job but most of the meatheads in the employ of the SPD don't have the brain cells to not shoot to kill whenever they idiotically tag something a threat. Fuck them and fuck you all. Happy new year.

27, funny how you are completely ignoring the fact that your friend was a Nazi sympathizer...or at least bizarrely fascinated with them.

You should be ashamed at yourself for being associated with him, not trying to defend him. Well maybe that is helping you through this.

Hey jerk, lots of folks died at the hands of the Nazis. If you think I can't celebrate the death of someone who was pointing a gun at the cops, intimidating his Jewish neighbors with his dress and demeanor, then how do you defend his actions, celebrating the regime that killed so many peoples grandparents & relatives?

To his friends:

This guy wasn't just some history buff. There was probably a real sense of fear and intimidation struck into the people who saw him.

While this is not illegal, it is definitely indefensible.

I am one of Miles' close friends. I typically appreciate the crass commentary on the Slog (as I also happen to be an avid Slog reader), but I am not at all appreciative of any sort of slander or snap-judgments about Miles. He was a wonderful, selfless and eccentric person who was frequently misunderstood by those who did not know him well. While I do not necessarily condone Miles' actions last night (whether they were blank rounds or not), I believe that this conflict could possibly have been resolved in a more sensible manner. I find it to be rather disturbing that the last people who made a split-second evaluation of Miles were the ones to end his life. He was not insane. He was not a Nazi. He just made some incredibly monumental mistakes last night that ultimately cost him his life. Of course, I can also empathize with the policemen; they were confronted by a man decked out in German military duds waving a rifle in their faces. Given Miles' unparalleled enthusiasm for WWII reenactments and the nature of last night's festivities, it is also difficult to imagine what sort of lens that Miles was viewing the situation through. I wouldn't wish to be in any of their positions. Nobody here is a murderer, and nobody was good and nobody was bad. It is simply a tragic series of misunderstandings that can now never reach any sort of comfortable resolution. There is nothing we can do now, except to make sure that people leave the poor man alone and stop misconstruing information. People singled him out enough when he was alive for his various idiosyncrasies. Despite these decidedly extenuating circumstances, I would ask that people withhold their misguided appraisals for Miles' sake. His historical fascination is not the problem. In fact, it is completely irrelevant to the events that transpired last night. Guns and presumably alcohol were the problem. I hesitate to speculate, as I myself don't have all the details. He was a dear friend and I can't begin to describe how awful it is for me to continually envision the brutal, violent end he met less than twenty-four hours ago. For once I just wish you would ditch the acerbic banter and trade it in for compassion and tact. For those of you who did not have the chance to spend any time with Miles, you missed out. I will remember Miles as a generous, kooky and inimitable spirit who helped to define a great deal of my life experiences as a young, dumb, twenty-something in Seattle. From getting gussied up and prowling for blonds at stupid UW parties, 4th of July accordion jams at my apartment and a lifetime's worth of wallowing in public parks, I will hold these memories of Miles dear to me until I meet my own end.

Here's to you, Miles. Happy new year.

-Andrew J.

@26,28,30...etc: just because someone has an interest in the Nazi party does not mean that they are a Nazi "sympathizer." By judging Miles and saying that you are glad he's dead based on such little information, you are more like Hitler than I'm sure Miles ever was. I can understand how people might not share in his fascination with Nazi Germany, but the Nazis are as much a part of history as anything else, and the phenomena of their existence is definitely an important topic of study. There is no evidence that he ever actually wanted/intended to hurt anyone.

#32 - you can actually study Nazism and WWII history WITHOUT dressing up like a Nazi -- amazing but true!

I don't think this guy deserved to die (though it sounds like he had a death wish) but anywone who dresses up in Nazi gear for fun disgusts me.

I second Andrew. Let us concentrate on the fact that someone loved by his friends, family, and many others has died. He was a friend of mine, and he would never act on the notion that this was a heinous act of hateful crime. Never would Miles have done this out of anything but celebration or joy. Respect him and his friends, he's a victim. And dead if anybody has the sense of comprehension.

To Miles' Friends - thanks for posting, sorry for your loss.

To Miles' Friends:

You're complicit in his death for not sitting him down with him and having a talk about his obsession with Nazis.

Fuck you #36, you have no idea what you are talking about.

OK 37, none of us understand. Why don't you explain why this was OK.

Well said Andrew. My sympathies. This sounds like a trulu unfortunate tragedy. As for thepolice, whenver an officer is involved in shooting their weapon they are placed on administrative leave while the incident is reviewed and for theofficers emotional well-being. It is a difficult thing to have killed someone in the line of duty. As for bullets killing people when they fall back to earth after having been shot straight up in the air, yes they do. All the time. And no, police officers are neither dumber nor smarter than any of us. What they are not is philosphers. They are not trained to reflect on a situation in progress and determine which hegelian paradigm would best fit what's happening. What they are is trained to act and react, sometimes on instinct. Because if they don't they or their partner or an innocent by-stander may wind up dead. In short they are trained assert control very rapidly, and to do in a mostly black and white way. And they aren't perfect either and expected to get every situation exactly right. And neither are we in our chosen line of work.

@33: okay, well your apparent lack of compassion for this young man based on his eccentric form of dressing disgusts me! you may say that you don't think he deserved to die, but that sure isn't the same as saying that you are sorry about it. You don't give a shit that he's dead, you're only interested in making sure people know that you're morally superior.

also, I should've said this earlier, but thanks to Miles' friends for commenting. it's really good to hear from the people who actually knew him. Clearly he was well loved.

This is disgusting. For people who claim so much compassion and tolerance, you certainly have no care for the death of a man who we now know was certainly no actual threat to anyone. Better yet, we're going to get to see him get slandered and portrayed as a neo-nazi with a real gun by the mainstream media, and we'll all be complacent to this. Now if someone says something bad about the center for sex positive culture, SLOG would declare a jihad, but the death of an innocent young man doesn't seem to be arousing any moral anger. Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful.

Hey #36. I am rarely impassioned enough to argue on the internet. But to anyone who thinks we didn't do enough, saw this coming, or are in some way responsible for what happened: fuck you. Miles' predilection for WWII was certainly strange, but never appeared to be unhealthy. To even suggest that we had some idea that something like this would happen is completely inappropriate. Fuck you, asshole. Your father and mother are both guilty of complicity in your birth for not heading down to the clinic and aborting your self-satisfied, know-it-all, zygotic ass the second you were conceived. Perhaps you should exercise a bit of judiciousness before you post thoughtless bullshit on the internet like the PI. Unsurprisingly, even they rescinded their earlier headlines to an extent. Take a fucking hint, you insensitive prick. Blood has been shed. People are crushed. You don't know shit.

@12: "Try not to shoot first" is not a practical rule for police. They can't afford to shoot second. Guns are deadly weapons. If you point one at a cop -- loaded or not -- the cop should shoot you. Too bad a kid like that was allowed to have a gun, though.

42: fuck you for being friends with him. You have no moral ground to stand on and are here defending your own conscious for associating yourself with him.

Citrus - So you think it's fine to dress up like a Nazi in public? I'm curious to know why you think that is ok.

Disgustipaded - There is a remarkably easy way to not get portrayed as a neo-Nazi in the "mainstream media": don't go around wearing Nazi outfits.

@44, What proof do you have that he was a neo-nazi? He was just a weird kid apparently. Besides, no one has moral ground; that's a term rooted in religious belief, our society is past that last I checked.

You're right, I've been lashing out and getting carried away.

We still don't have all the facts.

I WISH THERE WERE A "DELETE COMMENT" FEATURE for original authors

@45

The problem fu, is that it's just clothing. What are we supposed to do, whitewash away an entire period of history because bad things happened in it? The guy was a war re-enactor who chose to portray the Nazis. Or more correctly, the German Army, of whom, most weren't Nazis. It's amazing that we always seem to forget that the guys on the other side of a war have families and lives and generally weren't "bad" people, simply victims of circumstance and time. As Americans we have no right to talk considering all the horrible things are currently did, is doing, and will continue to do.

I'm not saying the guy didn't do something stupid, nor that the cops are at fault. I'm saying the fact that slog posters are celebrating his death is sickening.

I hope you don't drive a ford, use an IBM product or anything by companies that willingly cooperated with the Nazis. Their goods carry a more foul legacy than some idiot war reenacter.

48: imagine this scenario

I'm walking around campus slinging a noose.

I feel bad having an argument over the physics of falling bullets given that someone is dead, but here goes.

The speed of the bullet on its return to earth is dependent on the angle at which it was fired. A bullet fired straight up will lose all of its kinetic energy to air resistance and gravity, then will fall to earth. Its maximum velocity, or terminal velocity, is limited by air resistance and is probably not lethal.

On the other hand, a bullet fired at a lower angle could retain a large amount of its horizontal velocity. It will go up and fall just the same as the bullet fired straight up, but it will also have a potentially large horizontal velocity which could make it deadly.

I wonder if there is a mythbusters episode on this.

Sorry for defiling the thread! RIP Miles, you seemed interesting.

44: Thanks for the assessment, Freud. You win. You, with your superior virtues, have triumphed over all of us (Miles' friends) with our underdeveloped abilities to make any sort of moral evaluations. I now see that we were all wrong in caring about Miles. I will certainly think twice the next time I'm about to make friends with a unique, talented and misunderstood individual.

I give up on this board. I knew I shouldn't have even bothered.

44: *conscience

Wow, facetious to the max, Andrew!

thanks for proving the point.

I mean, next time put the barrel in your mouth and leave the cops out of it.

@51: hey andrew, sorry there are so many assholes trolling message boards. I can't imagine how hard it must be, not just to lose someone you care about so violently, but then to see him portrayed as something he was not (a nazi) and have people proudly proclaim he deserved to die. I hope for his family's sake that the press eventually gives this story a fair shake.

OMG! Didn't The Stranger run a story several years ago about how the man who designed or worked on (or once touched or once looked at) the Space Needle (or something) was a Nazi?

They're everywhere! Run for the hills!

[not! to those people who are obsessing about Nazis here, just. drop. it.]

Anonymous message boards = serious business

try again next time.

to focus on the costume is really not the point

remember, "pointing gun, rifle at the cops, and did not drop it when commanded"

they would shoot anybody at that moment, young, old, costumed or not

his friends needed to have some conversation about hijinks that could get him killed

by the way, cops are ALWAYS put on leave when they fire their weapons - standard, not a sign of anything but good policy

I don't like cops, but, in this case, the kid invited getting shot because of the gun

Andrew, you are tying to defend what cannot be defended

Mourn your friend, and quit trying to recreate the truth - you buddy committed suicide by stupidity - sweetheart that he might have been

neighbors calling 911 about shots - 28 homocides in the past year in this fair city - weird situation with a rifle, demented kind of uniform, and you think the cops should have been making jokes?

by the way, any rifle is far more deadly than hand gun in general, deemed to very dangerous indeed

clue bus coming at noon - get on it

and just what was he stoned on?

1) cops lie.

2) cops encourage use of embarrassing personal info about their victims to discredit or counter their lies, making their victim's advocates appear sentimental and willing to distort facts.

the questions to focus on should be:
-how did the police identify themselves?
-how did the police give notice that the victim should drop his weapon?
-was the victim given reasonable time to drop the weapon?
-did the victim in fact point the weapon at the police at all?

implicit within these questions:
-were there any witnesses other than police?

and fair is fair (if we're going to look into the credibility of the victim):
-what are the disciplinary records of the police involved (complaints received, not just sustained)?

the fact that police have to make split second decisions is not enough to justify their preemptively murdering people, especially in a country where the 2nd amendment still applies. they have to have evidence from the moment, not just emotion or post-hoc character assassination, to justify taking a life.

http://jointheimpact.wetpaint.com/thread…

#60 That is why police officers are put on administrative leave after a shooting. So that they can find if anything was done wrong.

The fact is the kid was shooting blanks out of a real gun at 2 AM in the morning. Yes it is a tragedy, but considering the state of mind a police officer is in when he shows up at a shots fired call, they weren't going to take any chances.

The facts will come out. If the officers called for him to drop to the ground and he instead pointed his rifle at them, then they did what you would expect any police officer to do.

Say a rosary for the police. If it weren't for the police, we'd all be dead in our beds with our throats cut.

This would have never happened in France.

Just saying.

@50 there has been a mythbusters on this, and they found that if the bullet is fired straight up, when it falls back down it won't fall with enough force to kill someone (though it would probably hurt). the bullet actually ends up horizontal (ie not pointed straight down) and didn't penetrate the dirt they were firing into.
but, as someone else pointed out, if you put any angle at all on the bullet, it will be lethal if it happens to hit someone.
i don't remember in which season that episode appeared, but it's been within the past couple of years, i think.

Thanks, Andrew. After reading through his Myspace page, I have to say that he was someone I would probably have really enjoyed knowing. I can also imagine that in the same set of circumstances, I most likely would have tried to explain to the police that it wasn't loaded and then waved it in the wrong direction in the meantime. I'm both somewhat clumsy and occasionally obtuse - that's why I don't own a gun.

@60 - Yes, cops do lie, and they also spread misinformation. However, they also get to make the determination of what exactly is enough notice they need to give before shooting someone who is armed. That's their job, and that won't change. It's the same reason why border guards don't actually have to have a reason other than "they seemed odd" to search you. These are jobs that inherently require flexibility in decision-making. You don't have to actually point and aim the gun at police before they can shoot you - all you have to do is make a motion that _might_ be moving it in their direction. (You don't even actually have to have a gun.) That's most likely what happened here. They don't have to have any evidence to justify whether he was likely to have shot them - that's not their job.

And for those going on about the nazi uniform... do you really think your average police officer is going to recognize that uniform as being nazi? I think some-sort-of-uniform is really as far as they're going to ID it given the immediate situation. I think they probably found the collection of stuff afterwards and presumed a connection.

I feel sorry for the guy, and for all his friends and family. I'm sure they recognize as well as anyone that it was a series of mistakes that happened and if any one of the things had been changed, he might be alive today saying "in retrospect, that was really kind of stupid." Everyone makes mistakes, most of them don't kill us.


RIP, Miles.

Andrew J, thanks for speaking your truth and I am sorry for your loss

THE POLICE ARE AMERICAN HEROES WHAT ABOUT 911 DO YOU NOT GET GOD YOU LIBS ARE STUPID

It's amazing that we always seem to forget that the guys on the other side of a war have families and lives and generally weren't "bad" people, simply victims of circumstance and time.

Yes, let's not forgot the Nazi's who were just victims of circumstance.
I was trying to come up with an analogy for something really really bad that you should'nt glorify. But I couldn't. Hitler and the Nazi's take the cake for as bad as it gets. This obsession was no joke

My sympathies to those of you who knew this poor fellow. Obviously, his judgment in dealing with the piggies wasn't great, but just as obviously, nobody needed to die.

That said, a few minor points I'd like to sound off on:

- with all the talk about Nazis, does anyone even know if it was a "Nazi" uniform? There are plenty of German military uniforms that have nothing to do with the Nazi party. Apparently he dressed in Russian military uniforms from time to time, too. Horrors! Maybe he was a godless Commie!

- Let's assume it was a "Nazi" uniform, and let's go further and assume that he had a more-than-casual interest in the Nazi party. Here's a newsflash: socially awkward, generally bright young men in their late teens/early twenties sometimes develop an infatuation with Nazis. It happens more frequently than you'd think, and is not necessarily indicative of any racism, anti-semitism, or conscious admiration of Nazi beliefs. What attracts and interests these kids are the uniforms, the mystique, the "forbidden" nature of it. Anyone ever see the South Park episode where Cartman sees old footage of Hitler and develops a man-crush on him? I can totally relate. When you have a hard time getting laid (the root of most extremism, in my opinion, but I digress), it's comforting to admire power and confidence, even if that admiration just takes the form of wearing cool uniforms (and let's be honest - hate the Nazis all you want, they did have cool uniforms). It's also a little rebellious to appropriate such a widely-hated symbol. Walk around any high school in this country and page through the notebooks (do kids still use notebooks?) and you'll see tons of swastikas scribbled in the margins along with other doodles. Does this mean our schools are crawling with neo-Nazis? Of course not. It's a taboo symbol, similar to kids who "worship Satan". A form of rebellion that, 99.9% of the time, means no more than any other youthful fad. You grow out of it. No big deal.

- as for those who think he should have died just because of his "unhealthy" interest in Nazism, please note that he was a German Studies major. Ya think maybe people who devote four years to studying Germany might be interested in studying Nazism? It was a pretty significant episode in the history of that country. Maybe we should shoot any historian who's delved into that period and written about it extensively. After all, it's "unhealthy".

- ah, well, I'm rambling again. I'm sure I've ruffled some feathers. C'est la vie.

oops

I find it ironic that SPD shot a dude who was dressed as a fascist. Worried about competition, officers?

64
Because the French were and are
anti-Semite Nazi collaborators and sympathisers.

ALL YOU LIBS MAKE ME SICK YOU THINK WE SHOULD JUST ARM THE COPS WITH DAISIES AND HAVE THEM AVAILABLE TO WIPE YOUR LIB ASSES AND BLOW YOUR LIB NOSES FOR YOU AND HOLD A CRIMINALS HAND WHEN THEY NEED BLOWN AWAY.

NOW THAT YOUR PRESIDENT NOBAMA HAS SHOWN HIS TRUE FACE LAUGHING AT YOUR GAY ASSES I BET YOU WILL SING A DIFFERENT SONG OH NO YOU WON'T BE CAUSE YOU ARE LIBTARDS AND LIBTARDS NEVER NOW ANYTHING.

Oh my god, I can't believe you sympathizers. This guy was a time bomb waiting for the right mosque, synagogue, or church. Who the fuck "re-enacts" Nazi shit BY HIMSELF on new years eve at 2AM by firing his rifle in the alley enough for the neighbors to get scared enough to call 911?! What kind of "battle" does a "history buff" re-enact by himself or with one or two friends at 2AM? Are you going to tell me he wasn't actually CELEBRATING at 2AM on New Years? Celebrating by firing your rifle around your neighborhood while dressed in a Nazi uniform IS A MOTHERFUCKING SIGN.

Dear god. How many times do you want to see "kooky", "eccentric" people snap and slaughter whole groups of innocents before you realize that certain actions are INDICATIONS of future behaviour?

@60 good points.

police need to give someone == ANYONE == enough time to drop their weapon. of course they didn't intentionally seeking him out to kill him. of course their job is a dangerous one. but that risk is unavoidable. people still deserve a chance to drop the gun.

everyone here at first thought the police were right because the guy was a nazi -- well, he wasn't. he wasn't even in nazi attire. the police lied -- or at best -- made a mistake about that.

so, what we know is that the police make mistakes. they make mistakes. and when they can make mistakes that cost a young man his life, well, there is something wrong.

you wouldn't want grumpy neighbors calling the police on your, your kids, or your friends who were celebrating new year's eve in a harmless way -- to have the police shoot a loved one of yours. that is not the sort of policing we need.

i understand that the police have to shoot first, and shoot to kill. even if they were justified here, it was a bad end. the question i have is, were they justified?

this story is significant because well-meaning police make mistakes, and they need to be held accountable for them. it's those of us who are different, who aren't the "same" who usually end up the victim. this guy was eccentric, and it's silly to think that may have cost him his life. because it is legal to play with guns in america. and it's legal to dress in old military uniforms. and it's certainly legal to be in your yard, drinking, and celebrating new year's eve.

this boils down to a noise violation? resulting in death?

Lib Defeater,

Thanks so much for raising the level of the discourse here. By the by, the "caps lock" key is usually located just to the left of the "A" key. Give it a try!

Anon @ 70:

1) There's a huge difference between scribbling swastikas in your notebook and dressing up as the fuckers on new year's eve, generally a time when people are celebrating.

2) Last I checked, I can major in shit and study really hard without dressing up as the shit I'm studying on New Year's Eve and firing my rifle off in the street.

Infrequent @ 76: It is MOST DEFINITELY NOT legal to fire your rifle off in the city. By all accounts that's what instigated the 911 call(s) that got the police out there in the first place. Are you really going to approach a drunk dude dressed in military garb who is firing his rifle off in the street on new years eve and ask him if he's firing blanks or not?

@79. No. But I am going to give him one chance to drop the weapon. One chance.

(and please, is shooting blanks a crime in the city?)

What I'm not going to do is:

Say he was a Nazi to discredit him. He was not a Nazi.

Not give the young man a chance to drop the weapon.

Say he pointed the rifle and came at them.

We all know that in cases like this, the police are usually justified. But not always. When everyone thought he was a Nazi, pretty much everyone was okay with it. Because the type of person who would be a Nazi seems like the type of person who would aim a loaded weapon at a police officer.

>>>HOWEVER<<<

He was not a Nazi. Suddenly, the story has a new angle. Maybe the police weren't being entire honest... or maybe they were, but they made a mistake.

I'm not so sure I believe the police account yet. I need more information. Since this was a non-Nazi, and an educated guy, I'm thinking he wouldn't come at police if given a chance not to.

And since we was in his yard (or a friend's) with blanks having fun -- perhaps drunk -- I'd hope the police could somehow give this sort of person a chance in their state to respond before shooting.

@74

Hey stupid, you just discover the internet? Stop yelling.

Feel bad for the kid, but don't point guns at the police. The uniform issue is moot. The cops probably didn't figure out the nazi/german uniform angle until after the kid was already cold.

i know it's tough for some of you to imagine, but police officers are humans who get scared and make mistakes. they also make quick judgments and eventually are going to make a bad one -- even if they go to their grave thinking they made the right call.

maybe it's takes such a thing happening to you before you realize it can happen.

but for the super-pro-police defenders here, you probably like the rule of law. that rule of law allows you to play with guns if you like. if you are your friends were playing with your guns in a harmless way, and were suddenly confronted by the police, perhaps you could understand the other side of this story.

having a gun while hunting is essential. and so is having a gun for a war re-enactment (or costume). i would hope the police wouldn't be so eager to shoot at hunters, nor at youths celebrating new years.

give the kid a chance to drop the gun.

and if you did do that...

don't lie by saying he was a nazi so your actions seem justified.

that stinks. it makes it look like a cover-up. which gives me cause to doubt their version of events.

i think it was likely a terrible mistake -- but that in the heat of the moment, the officers may have made a poor judgment. i also think the guy likely made a poor judgment as well. only, he's the one who ended up dead. basically for a noise violation and being eccentric.

#80 How the heck were the police officers supposed to know he was firing blanks? And how do you know that they didn't give him a chance to drop his gun?

The report states that they warned him several times to drop his weapon and then he pointed it at the officers. All the facts are going to be reviewed, but if true then the kid put the officers, who had no idea they were blanks, into the position of killing him.

#82

Most people don't play war games with blanks at 2 am in the morning, on New Years, in the middle of the city.

Title 12A - CRIMINAL CODE
Subtitle I Criminal Code
Chapter 12A.14 - Weapons Control


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SMC 12A.14.071 Discharge of a firearm.

A person is guilty of discharge of a firearm if he or she wilfully
discharges a firearm in a place where there is a reasonable likelihood
that humans, domestic animals or property will be jeopardized.

(Ord. 119010 Section 8, 1998: Ord. 117157 Section 3, 1994.)


If "blanks" are good enough in Hollywood to fool me, they're more than good enough to fool the neighbors of this young man. Most hunters I know don't even have blanks, and would be fairly aghast if approached by someone swinging a gun around -- no one but the guy swinging the gun knows if it's loaded, or loaded with blanks.

"in the city" but also in his backyard. come on... his backyard.

(may have been his friend's backyard -- same diff).

blanks -- yes, they were blanks. how many times do i have to say this: blanks are not illegal. yes, they are scary -- but that shouldn't be your judge and jury. "acting" seems real. many people act. the practice plays. they wrestle with friends. these actions may look real, but is the the job of the police to respond and sort it out.

what i'm saying is that i think there is reason to doubt the police version of events. they lied or were wrong about him being a nazi. but you can see what their line of thinking was.

that same line of think led them to shoot a young man. they may have been wrong.

oh! he was in the middle of the city!!! can you imagine it... right in the middle. doing weird things! on new years eve! who does something weird on new year's eve? no one! not in the middle of the city in their backyard, they don't!

blanks are good enough for hollywood?!?! i know!! actors should be shot by the police, too!!! don't apply common sense! don't give them enough time to react! just shoot them! say they had a weapon and were dressed as a nazi! who cares if they were just "acting" -- no one will believe them over you! what kind of freak likes playing war games anyone! no decent young guy ever likes playing war games. none i know, at least! none!!!

to the blood thirsty facists on this board:
Wishing someone would be shot for dressing in an Nazi or in German WWI outfit makes you as sadist as SS officers.
Be reasonable, logical and have compassion.

We should wait to hear all the details before spitting on someone's grave and condemning him to hell.
Keep in mind he was eccentric and only 22 years old.
Too much alcohol may have lead to an unfortunate decision.
To his friends I'm sorry for your loss.

I read in the PI that this person's family had not been notified as of yet?

Does anyone know if this is true?

If so, Why are the Strangers editor's publishing his name already

Back in the old Seattle days it was common for drunks to shoot off guns at house parties /after shows.
Things weren't as safe. it was crazy and dangerous. But, this is a city.
The police did not show up with a SWAT team and blow anyone away back then.
Seattle has become a city of whiners, wimps and yuppies.

Idiots. If you want to live in a place where you can fire off your guns willy nilly and not have the cops come, move the fuck out of Seattle. I'm sure you can still do that shit in Wyoming, Montana, or Alabama. Go. Quickly.

yes! celebrating new year's with friends and blanks = "firing off guns willy nilly"!!!

getting shot to death = "having the cops come come"!!!!

fun with phrasing!!!


what you could have just as easily said was:
Idiots. If you want to live in a place where you can celebrate new year's even with your friends on private property dressed as you see fit and not have the cops come and gun you down then lie about you in the press, move the fuck out of Seattle. I'm sure you can so that shit in New York, Berkely, or France. Go. Quickly.

@60 The tv news interviewed a couple neighbors who heard the police yelling at the suspect over and over again to drop the gun and then they heard more shots fired.

To those that somehow think the cops should have known he was firing blanks - how? They arrive on scene, confront Miles, order the weapon dropped, allegedly he turns (perhaps to drop the gun, we don't know) and now the gun is pointed at the cops. The cops can only assume it is too shoot at them.

The uniform has nothing to do with the decision made. He could have been in his A&F clothes and still been shot.

Moral of the story: Drugs (alcohol is one) + Guns = Stupidity.

I agree with you #94.
Poor drunken judgment.

The cops have no clue if he is dangerous and crazy and popping off his gun.
So, the situation is a clusterfuck.
But, wishing people to be shot to death because he dressed odd and not normal that's a different severe problem that needs to be addressed.
I do not want to live in a society where individuality is repressed either.
Seattle was untamed and the wild west for many years it's just recently become tame in the late 90's.

It's the New Year and we are already sending death wishes and spewing hate? wtf?
What made Seattle great was care, compassion and community.
yes, and it can be that way again.

I saw this kid around the UW in his tight period-piece jackets. He was a little eccentric but in a good way. If he had been wearing his Cossack uniform or his Civil War uniform, you wouldn't be calling him a Russian or a Grey-shirt.

I’m normally very supportive of our North Precinct police officers and the job they do. However, this incident is one that seems possible to have dealt with the situation without the use of deadly force. Hindsight being 20/20 and all…

The flood of online comments cheering the police for ridding us of the neo-Nazi scum (based on the one-sided initial reporting in the media and the Slog) was clearly misguided…. more like mob action at its finest.

I’m guessing it will ultimately be revealed that this was a case of a college student who was drunk on New Year’s Eve in the U-District (shocking, I know) who made the stupid decision to shoot rifle blanks (as his Myspace profile indicates was one of his “favorite activities”, in line with his WWII re-enactor hobby) instead of firecrackers in the alley behind his house.

The SPD blog states that the responding officers were “confronted” by the suspect, but other reports in the Times and P-I describe witnesses saying the police went and knocked on Miles’ apartment door and he answered with the rifle in his hands (drunk kids being stupid again).

Some there say that the police officers didn’t wait long enough between their commands to drop the rifle and their shots that killed Miles.
That’s a debate with valid arguments on both sides (wait longer with the wrong suspect, and a cop gets shot… vs… this was just a drunk kid who could have been taken down with non-lethal force).

I can remember numerous times dining at Red Mill over the last couple of years when Miles was working there. He was always polite and friendly, and I have no doubt that his death will be a loss for so many. It will probably also haunt the consciences of the officers involved in the shooting as they gain the perspective on the situation that they didn’t have when they got the call.

A sad tragedy for all of us.

@94: can you link that story? i haven't seen the one where neighbors are interviewed. i watched komo and king.

just to be clear: if this guy pointed the gun at police after being told to drop it, then yeah, i have no problem with the police action. it's lame, but i understand it.

i just want the whole story, and am surprised how many people just think this guy was obviously at fault. because he was weird, and because the police don't lie or make mistakes. those are two things that grab my attention.

those who are different shouldn't be treated differently when it comes to justice.

and the police sometimes like or make mistakes.

i just want these things to be considered, and am a little angered how little benefit of the doubt is according this young guy... a guy who seems not to different from me, or, dare i say... you.

This young man's "one chance" to drop his weapon was hearing the police vehicles (with sirens?) and the orders through bullhorns before they approached. He did not.

About once a year some obsessive college student goes on a shooting rampage through a campus, most brutally and recently at Virginia Tech. The police response with the SWAT team was reasonable and appropriate to a report that shots are being fired by strangely dressed individuals near the campus.

@95, what about the care, compassion, and community for people like me, who had relatives suffer at the hands of the Nazis? Are you telling me that on New Years, when I'm woken up by a neighbor dressed in German war regalia shooting off his rifle and apparently celebrating the death of my relatives, I'm supposed to feel good about his freedom to do so? Maybe I should, who knows. Maybe black people should feel good about history buffs who re-enact civil war battles waving their confederate flags and firing of their guns on New Year's Eve.

I guess I'm not the "turn the other cheek" kind of liberal that feels a need to show compassion for those who didn't give the same thought in their actions.