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Yessir, many's a time I've given "beatings" to male friends for sleeping with some other mutual male friend's woman without permission (and a 6-month buffer, of course.)
It's not rooted in a property concept it's rooted in a contract concept among the two hetero guys.
The contract is their mutual implied agreement to be friends; which includes not emotionally distressing the buddy who's the ex of the chick by hitting on her.
It's merely a mutual noncompete agreement.
IT's all part of the larger agreement among heteros to always, always facilitate your buddy's romantic endeavors by introducing him to girls you are not pursuing (say because you already have a g.f.) or are barred from pursuing (your sister!) and acting as general wingman (but not to your own detrimnet). If your friends hit on your g.f. or your ex g.f. without permission, it means you can't trust them to be frieds with your g.f., whom they should be sort of treating as their own sister.
And btw isn't great that there is a culture of complex moral codes and btw what hetero guys just naturally think and feel is as valid as what hetero girls just naturally think and feel, genders being equal.
No affronts, no implied layers of claiming another human being. You don't mess with a friend's significant other. If you do, you are an ass.
Suuuuure.
I'm a straight guy and I dislike golf and Jon & Kate. Does that mean I'm secretly 2/3 gay?
Also, while there may be a grain of truth in the "hetero guy code of conduct" thing, beatings is definitely not part of it in my experience. None of my straight male friends are down with violence like that. (The dykes on the other hand ... )
P.S. Golf isn't straight, it's white.
sheesh.
No affronts, no implied layers of claiming another human being. You don't mess with a bro's significant other. If you do, you are an ass, if she does, she is a scrotum.
Sure, you can date your friend's ex. And she can date whomever see wants. But the guy forfeits the other guy's friendship. Ain't cool.
I'm guessing the same is true among het-women.
Now if they just casually dated a time or two, there's no real reason to have "rules" of 6 months. But if your best friend is in pain and stinging from a break-up it is kind of tacky to immediately start dating the woman he has all these mixed emotions and heartache about.
Plus, doesn't it look tacky to run around scraping up other peoples' leftovers?
Sure, you don't date your friend's ex anytime soon after they break up, or if you do you either ask permission or keep it quiet. That's Not Being a Dick 101. But beatings? Absolute pronouncements about what friends and exes may or may not do? Bullshit. Grow up.
it's also worth mentioning that while such a code most defintiely exists and is given much lip service by all kinds of men, i've found in the past that any chance for most guys to 'get some,' be it from his best friend's girl or a total stranger, results in all codes, rules, laws, guidelines and good sense going out the window...
It's not ironclad, but it is there. As we become more mobile in society it's less of a deal, but it still exists.
That said, it also depends on ethnic and regional backgrounds for how strong it is. Try it in some neighborhoods and you'll happen to 'fall' off a bridge - in other places other guys will just happen to 'bump' into you a few times.
And it is just between the two guys. I don't recall anyone ever thinking it was her fault per se. It doesn't really apply to women so far as I can tell.
Admittedly, some guys will say it's ok but still not be ok with it, but that means other guys (mostly) will just tell them to take it outside.
makes a whole lot of sense if you are a woman or a gay man. Otherwise, it's just theory. That's not how it works Dan, sorry to tell you.
Granted, all of this pre-supposes the males in the group treat females well. If they're a bunch of douchebags, no wonder they don't want their buddies abusing someone they had feelings for.
Is it totally irrational to expect your friends to avoid dating an ex? There must be a continuum between beating your friends up like a meathead and always pretending that anything is totally cool and once a relationship is over there's no emotion at all allowed.
And yay to the straight guys who are calling MEAT out. He and his catty female equivalents are exactly what is wrong with straight culture.
You sound like someone who would fuck his best friends' wife.
@29: Ha!
Which, as you very well know, he hasn't talked about.
And don't tell me girls don't check and make sure it's ok before they date a friend's ex - cause I know they do.
Of course, sluts (male or female) will just do it anyway, but that's who they are.
But this is only the case if love is involved. It's not about treating someone as property. It's about broken hearts, pain, all that wonderful shit that comes with falling in love. The reason these men and women (gay or straight) expect their friends to have the good taste to stay the fuck away from their exes is because they love them. The "six month" rule is there because that is giving the guy or girl time to get over it.
All of this is only a problem if love is involved. If my spouse left me and my friend began dating him, I'd hate them both. Six months from now? I'd probably still think it's in bad taste. But if they were happy . . . I like to think I'd be a big person about it.
Everything I said in post 35 has probably already been said.
Wow - you honestly just helped me decipher "guy"-ese. Thank you.
Humans have emotions. We're funny that way.
I think if it was a guy friend and he only had a one night stand with someone after some event and I knew he was involved with someone else, then it would be ok, though, provided she wasn't still involved in his life.
If he had any.
you don't know what your missing, danny
guys I think the 'beating' was hyperbole.
Sarah, dear:
It's not about "her" at all.
It is about the relationship between the male friends.
#49, you said what I said, only better.
"The contract is their mutual implied agreement to be friends; which includes not emotionally distressing the buddy who's the ex of the chick by hitting on her."
That's the heart of the issue, not some bullshit argument about property. You can date anyone's ex without asking permission, but that means you are not their friend.
First off, I don' think High School romance is what we are a-talking about here, and if your social group is that incestuous that usually is a sure sign of needing a new set o' friends.
Uhh, and did you actually use the term "cockblocked?" Controlling ex-boyfriend is the last of your worries, honey.
My brothers in heterosexuality: man up, grow up, and get over yourselves. These rules are arbitrary, made up! and you hide behind them because you can't deal with a painful reality (read: she likes your friend now, he wants to see where it goes. You can't blame him, after all, you did too! Why deprive them of the opportunity?).
On a side note, I just wanted to mention that there is also an unspoken code amongst women as well. It has been well known to me that girls who date a bunch of guys amongst a group of friends, are considered sluts, dirty and diseased. The men in the group start thinking she is trying to break up the group of friends, or that she wants to be passed around. I've known that for a while, and even though I disagree with it and the idea infuriates me, I still followed it when I was young and single, because I was worried about nasty rumours flying around about me. Whenever I broke up with a guy, if any of his friends showed interest, I just broke off all contact because I didn't want to be seen as a slut. I hate that I grudgingly follwed that stupid rule, but when you're young, sometimes silly rumours like that cause so much stress and hurt, it's not even worth it!
HS romance. Exactly. He was way controlling to hold onto a HS romance years after it was over. More than most men. I supply him as an extreme example of male possessiveness espousing THE CODE.
Incestuous social group. I lived in a small town growing up and went to a small college nearby my first year. There's a limited dating pool.
And "cockblock" well yes he was blocking the cock that I could have been getting.
Finally, are you a girl? If you're okay with ex-boyfriends influencing your present and future love life, by all means live by THE CODE ho.
"A guy who sleeps with his friend's wife doesn't deserve friends....unless it's a threesome situation, they're all swingers, it's an open relationship, or one of them is into cuckoldry.", I believe you mean. Sex with a married person isn't necessarily adultery or "cheating".
I know it's fun to reduce us to easily understood stereotypes, but you don't seem to understand that there's complexity behind all of the perceived simplicity. If you're not able to accept criticism without throwing out a ton of 'bro, dude, yo, brah' (property) remarks about men, then you're not ready to give advice.
It's sad to see how many people seem to like pigeonholing men into these comfortable little soundbites that are easy to wrap your itty-bitty brains around. I guess it's easier to pretend you understand something than to admit you don't.
Women, are you all money-grubbing, backstabbing bitches, clamoring for social status before you inevitably fill the void in your lives by having numerous children? No? Then shut up about men.
Gays, are you all lost, neurotic man-children who love to dance, and have nonstop anonymous sex in an effort to acquire the father you never had? No? Then shut up about straight men.
I know, since we're a (not technical)'majority' and we're not really afraid of being stereotyped, we play along with it ourselves. But just like the self deprecating guy at the party, it's usually because we're actually comfortable not taking things too seriously. You should be so lucky to have that comfortability.
Oh, and also, as #59 says, it's more about being kind to a friend. You just like to assume we're all dicks and that this is about 'property.'
Pathetic.
Maybe the gay code is "a good lay is a good lay--every man for himself". However, if you remove all the "6 months limit" and "kick his ass" lingo, it really is about respecting your friends. Straight guys have more difficulty talking about this. Perhaps gay guys would be more willing to take their gay friend aside and say "this guy tore my heart out, and even though he's hot as hell and u guys seem to hit it off please don't fuck him or date him it will really jeopardize our friendship...." so straight guys make a hetero "code".
As far as the "beatings" thing goes -- I guess that means that big, tough guys who could take you in a fight don't have to honor the "Code," right? Sound fair?
Women aren't property, and just because you had a nice day at Disneyland does not mean you now own Disneyland. Give it a fucking rest, MEAThead.
Somebody really wants to get it on with their friend's ex.
Getting past the heartbreak and wounded pride, wouldn't you feel sort of piggish for insisting they not be together, even if they make each other really happy, just to forever spare your hurt feelings?
Getting angry, at the end of any torrid affair, is legit. Not being able to be around your friend and ex while you get over it, is legit. Saying horrible, outrageous things about your ex and your friend to a couple of very close friends, to vent, is legit. Being so heartbroken by the whole thing that you can't bring yourself to ever really be friends with your ex and ex-friend except for civility in social situations, is insisting upon your own continued misery but legit. Demanding mutual friends ostracize your ex and rogue friend and trying to tell other people whom they may date and beatings to top it off, is not. That's possessive.
We've never talked about it, it's just understood. It's not about property, it's about honor.
A true friend wouldn't put you in the position of having to demand that they don' date your ex.
You know the old saying, "with friends like these..."
I am truely sorry that you had to experience that.
Actually, I'm 52 and 57, honey. And for the record I've been the heartbroken friend as well as the girlfriend dating an ex's friend in different situations...and we're all still friends. But I'm part French so maybe that's it. And no, there's no friend's ex I want. I just moved somewhere new and therefore have no friends only new acquaintances, most of them gay men, and none of their charming exes would touch my gorgeous naked female body with a 10 foot pole. That said, I have never gone with a friend's ex and it has never occurred me. Unlikely, given the history of my friends' tastes in men.
But your original comment to me is right for the wrong reasons...I do have a bigger problem than a controlling ex. I keep ending up checking back at this thing when I should be writing a grad dissertation. SLOG is too much of a procrastination excuse. I'm out to go fuck one of my friend's exes. Or something.
Does it really need any more explanation than that????
Here's a happy scenario for yous: My friends & I like to actively discuss our sex lives. Do I really want to compare notes on past & current lovers that I share in common with my friends?????? No, I do not.
If it makes you feel good that your friend & ex hook up, then more power to you. I personally wouldn't wish any of my ex's on my friends. They're an ex for a reason.
Because by grade eight? We'd figured out that relationships are complicated, and you try not to hurt the people you care about, but sometimes people just don't mesh even when you think they should/they thought they did awhile ago, sometimes people hurt each other without wanting to, and sometimes all you can do is suck it up and get over yourself. We're all just looking to be happy -- getting hung up on rules and angst about how we get there is totally counterproductive. Go with what works. Keep breathing, and it'll all come out in the end.
Of course, he didn't ACTUALLY beat him, and he never will. The guy kept away from my brother for about a year, though, just to be safe.
Dan is right that nobody has control over their ex's sex life. FIM and his friend's ex can fuck all they want.
MEAT is right that FIM is likely going to damage or destroy his relationship with his friend, and quite possibly his relationship with a lot of their mutual circle, whether male or female.
So, whether Dan's advice is right or night depends on whether it's more important to FIM to be with this girl NOW, or whether he'd rather preserve those relationships by waiting.
MEAT's argument sounds like a defense of outmoded (if they ever even were the mode) alpha-male corralling of potential "incubators" (females) for the alpha-male's genes. It seems like an embrace of some primitive impulse to hoard such "incubators" against competition from other males, with whom the female may wish to mate.
Of course, I believe such a "man-code" is total bunk, and would have believed it was bunk even when it was the case. After all, that a state of affairs is true does not mean that it should be true (which is partly why I oppose biological determinism). It appears to be a desperate, artificial construction of some sort of "masculine social mystique". At any rate, I have no sympathy for men who try to control women's actions, whether because they want to propagate their genes, because they merely suffer from jealousy, or for any other reason. It was bad (for everybody other than the alpha-male) in the first place, and it still is. I care more about people's autonomy than about spreading my seed, even if MEAT doesn't.
Dan, I am glad you disagree with MEAT concerning the irrational disregard by jealous men of their former lovers' voluntary participation in subsequent romantic affairs.
B. Arkell
http://discoasylum.blogspot.com
Oh, right, because only what makes sense to straight guys is not theory?
Especially disturbing are the commenters who say this has nothing to do with the woman, and is just about the relationship between the men. Women are people too, you know, and even if you don't buy into it yourself, you are enabling a culture of slut-shaming and oppression.
Who needs this bullshit?
The two guys weren't even super close friends. If they were best friends, it might be slightly different, but they weren't.
I'm hetero and male, but I'm also poly, so all this weird-ass 'code' shit is baffling to me.
Maybe people should figure out a code where they're happy when their friends are happy. Dan was right the first time; the fooling around is a symptom, not a cause. She would dump the old boyfriend anyway, so everyone should just be glad that she found someone else that's making her excited.
I'm with Olo @16, Irena @28 and Pablo @55 friends of mine who would get together with my ex do so with my blessing and hopes they make each other happy (or in the shorter term, that he can make her transition easier). If she needs to be getting some as part of processing the breakup, I don't see any reason I would obstruct her options to strangers outside our mutual circle of friends.
Of course, my own code is to love and respect my partners as individuals first, and as paramours second, and that includes respect for whatever they need to do to move on from us. Even if that means doing one of our mutual friends.
I get along with a lot of my exes.
And Keekee @52 most circles of friends, as they evolve with time, become quite incestuous. It's especially the case when a couple, as an item, introduces each other to all their friends. Because of remnants of the code, I've watched my best friend and his wife become detached from all their friends, including myself, as everyone was expected to choose a side. I couldn't. Both husband and wife now have no connection with their friends from that era.
I know that in my posts, #35 & #51, I'm not being clear. But I think that the former is always a shitty thing to do (whether you're the one cheating or the "friend" being cheated with), and the latter is sometimes a shitty thing to do. It's only shitty if the one dumped is still hurting.
What seems to be forgotten in the original letter is that the original relationship is still going on and the boyfriend really cares about the girl. I simply do not think it would be unreasonable for the boyfriend to be pissed off that his friend (even if they aren't "best friends") has fucked his girlfriend.
When love is involved, it's going to hurt to be dumped. It's going to hurt twice as bad if someone you thought of as a friend is the reason you got dumped. That's not jealousy; that's getting shit on by two people you thought you could trust. And if you're the friend or the girlfriend, and you care about the boyfriend getting dumped, why in the world would you do that to him? He's already hurting.
These hurt feelings, the sense of betrayal, and the resultant anger at the friend have nothing to do with thinking we own another person. That's bullshit rationalizing of shitty behavior. It's a type of blaming the victim. A victim who's not only lost his/her partner, but also a friend.
But like I said at post 35, this only matters if the person dumped still has feelings for his/her ex. A real friend wouldn't stomp all over that.
And yes, personally, once I was over my ex, I wouldn't care if he dated my own sister if it made them both happy. I hope/think I'm a reasonable person. Buy while I'm still missing him, while I'm still working out what went wrong, is it too much to ask that my friend find another guy's cock to suck?
Yes, because even after some woman has broken up with you, you have the right to prevent her from having a sex life by pitching a fit if she gets together with anyone you know, demanding they wait until *you're* okay with it, and demanding the physical beating of any man sniffing around her. Yeah. That's not possessive. It's just about being nice.
I strongly doubt all straight guys--or all straight girls, as some have claimed--are like this. If you are in a group of friends that follows this "code", I'm here to tell you that you should be able to find a better group of friends.
Eight years ago, it was my first year of college. My best friend from high school had started dating some guy during the summer--I met him in September, thought they were a great couple. They continued dating until December. Did I mention that I discovered I attended the same college as this guy and saw him around all the time? We fell in love. In March--only two months after their break-up, oh noes--I took my girlfriend out to lunch and said, "Guy and I like each other and we're going to go out." I was telling her, not asking her, but I wanted to break it to her gently. That's being nice to a friend.
Two months ago, she attended our wedding. If she had pulled Code on me, she'd have cheated me out of the love of my life--someone she wasn't even dating anymore, and had no claim to.
People who talk about the Code being about respecting your friends have to realise it goes both ways. If your friend really likes your ex, why, as a friend, would you deny him why may be a big love in his life?
(That relationship is between FIM & her.)
He does, however, have to be up-front if he wants to stay friends with said's ex --his current friend-- as one should try to be with all one's friends.
(That relationship is between FIM & him.)
And as some have mentionned, it's got nothing to with women as property. It's about friendship. Sleeping with your friend's ex is like sleeping with your dad's mistress. While not technically incest, it's just not worth the problems it's going to create.
Peoples are really hung up on this "ownership/possesiveness" thang. If anything to me, it's a feeling of ownership towards the friendship not the former relationship with the ex. I try to take ownership for all my actions which would include making the moves on my friend's ex's. That's just a shitty thing to do to someone you call a friend. Is that really so hard for yous to understand????? I think some of the commentors here don' like taking a look in the mirror. So, they use somebody else's actions to justify their own shitty behavior. A sad, but fairly typical response I suppose.
As for Jade @90:
Huh? My social circle only got incestuous when I was a teenager/in college. Once I got out in the real world, it didn't see this stuff happening. Once we all got past raging hormones/immaturity it just seemed to vanish. The way you put it, just sounds like rationalizations to me.
As for the having to pick sides when friends divorce, yah that sucks, but it has been my experience that it is unavoidable.
It would be interesting to know the age demographics of some of the commentors here. I truely believe that someone's age/maturity level factors greatly into this discussion.
Rob