Comments
Please wait...
Comments are closed.
Commenting on this item is available only to members of the site. You can sign in here or create an account here.
Editors' Picks
is a proud member of the
media network
media network
All contents © Index Newspapers LLC
800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
I am anything but a prude but nobody fucking cares about who you play with, except for maybe the Catholic church.
Me thinks that you want to let people know for the 'shock value' or to appear to be 'cool.'
This letter has a loser smell. I'm surprised that Dan didn't catch it. Maybe he has a cold or something.
Hm... considering how often I've heard gay individuals, unprompted, offer up negative comments about non-monogamous couples, Gary, I'm inclined to believe the letter's author. And since gay couples are more likely to be openly non-monogamous, gay people are likelier to be familiar with successful non-monogamous couples, and yet I still hear comments similar to the ones PWFU lists pretty regularly.
So based on my experience, I think PWFU deserves the benefit of the doubt.
If any member of my family asked, I would tell them.
When's the last time you discussed your giving a righteous blow-job with your grandmother at Thanksgiving?
Would you tell a registered Democrat to keep his mouth shut if someone said that all Democrats were treasonous fascist traitors who wanted to pull the plug on grandma?
My feeling is that most people do not want to know anything about the sexual practices of somebody else. Adding to the mix is my feeling that most people who insist upon sharing their sexual practices with others have some issue - either insecurity or some form of exhibitionism or whatever. But it usually has a 'validation' component. I'm not taking about sharing intimate details with a whoring buddy. PWFU specifically asked about 'family and friends.'
If PWFU wanted to live in an relationship (poly or mono) with two other people, then yes it is important to share that. But if every third Friday they hit the bars to bring home someone to fuck, I don't think mama wants or needs to know.
The key to this whole situation is simply insecurity. Lots and lots of people find anyone who does things differently than they do an implicit threat or a critique. Monogamy works for some people. Good for them. It doesn't work for others. Good for them. Everyone should just do their own thing and not worry about what other people do or think or fuck. But we don't seem to be wired that way.
I've always handled things like it sounds PWFU handles them - don't bring it up unless it comes up, but don't hide it, either. I think that's the best you can do.
Hey -- on a completely unrelated note, how do I access the rest of the question of the day archives? I only relatively recently discovered them and was looking forward to really pouring through them, but now can't find them. Somebody help? Is it on DS' blog homepage? (didn't see a link, but will go back & check again...)
Yeah, I hate the way people who are married make such a big deal about their practices. They wear rings, have big ceremonies in front of audiences, expect gifts, send announcements to the paper to tell the world they've signed up to screw someone else regularly for a lifetime...it's just awful. Why do they have to make such a big public fuss about their sexual practices? And then a lot of them have bio-kids, which suggests way more than I want to know about their sexual practices. Little walking, talking bits of evidence of what they do between the sheets! Ewww! Oversharing!
(That is what you were referring to, right? Applying the same standard to monos as to polys seems like a good idea to me.)
Take a pill.
In my crowd, it usually it comes up in conversation when someone in a couple refers to his or her other significant other(s) (just the way a mono might refer to his or her spouse or boyfriend/girlfriend) or his or her hot date last weekend (just the way a mono might refer to a hot date last weekend.)
Unless you have the kind of social circle where people keep their love lives a deep dark secret and you know nothing about their relationship status, it doesn't have to be any more a secret than having a mono relationship does. I have a general idea which of my friends are poly the same way I have a general idea which ones are queer, kinky, married, breeding, etc. I don't ask or get told details unless I'm flirting seriously with a person, but then I don't ask or get told those sort of details about my mono friends' practices either.
Pleased to meet you, fucking moron. My name's Susan.
Let me spell it out for you in easier terms, since that seems to have gone over your head:
Saying one is poly and dating or in a multiway relationship is no different from saying one is mono and dating or in a mono relationship. Either statement gives me exactly the same detail-free information about their sexual practices.
All the hoopla around marriage is basically an exhibitionistic advertisement of the sexual practices of the marrying couple and a request for public validation. That's fine, whatever makes 'em happy, but it leaves no room to throw stones at other people for doing the same about their poly relationships. Not that they do.
invited her domme to dinner
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
The end.
I don't know what tags it wants me to put around links to make them work correctly, and it cuts off the end.
I've been in an open realtionship since the early 90's. Especially in the early days there were a couple of reasons the topic came up. One is that many couples in my social circle were struggling with those inevitable periods of temptations and crushes. They were devoted to their partners, but as happens all the time, people fell in love with others, were attracted to others--and it becomes a philosophical discussion. You talk about these things with the people you are close to. Dan is right in that people focus on open relationships failing, but in my experience the monogamous couples have the same issues, and fail at solving them at least as often. I don't know any of my monogamous friends who haven't strayed a little, at least in their hearts--and I consider them to be a pretty upstanding bunch of people.
So you talk about these struggles with your close friends.
But beyond the close friends? I've sometimes told people I had a lot of contact with because I did not want them to ever possibly see me with my other partner and think I was cheating on my husband.
So these days I less often see a need to just bring it up with new people. But if the topic arises, I feel I need to speak up for the team. I feel I'm pretty trustworthy in most people's eyes, so it breaks their stereotypes a bit. And oddly, by now in my life more people recognize that life isn't black and white. So many very well meaning people I know, have grown up and realized you go forth with life "doing the best they can". And there is less angst about the question. You try to treat people well and you try to live your life the best you can--being true to oneself, causing as little hurt as possible to those around you.
But marriage has nothing to do with sexual practices, including 'mono' vs 'poly.'
There are asexual people who marry. And there are people who are sexual but not with each other who marry. Often this is for some type of benefit for one of the spouses.
As for the gifts, who the fuck wants yet another piece of shit digital picture frame?
When the topic does come up among non-poly folks (rare, but it does happen), there's a significant number of people who immediately make all kinds of assumptions.
You're poly because you're unsatisfied with your sex life. Um, no.
You're poly because you want to have sex with lots of people. Um, no. I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea, it's just not what I'm looking for.
You're going to 70's-style key parties or swinger parties. Um, definitely no - I'm not at all interested in swinging. I'm not opposed to it, it just isn't my thing.
You're poly because you want to go have orgies. See above.
I think a little public education about poly is a public service, because there are so many erroneous assumptions made about it. I don't think most people have any idea how many poly folks they already know, because most of us don't tend to bring the topic up except with like-minded people. Many, many of us are happily married couples who sometimes accept another partner into the relationship, for either short or long periods of time. Most of us aren't a flock of 13-year-old girls forced into relationships with creepy old men.
But: uncomfortable, yeah. They make my emotional side pretty f-ing uncomfortable. I'd try not to show it, though.
I confess this in an attempt to shed light on why other people might also be uncomfortable. I'm not the smartest cookie, but I'm smart enough that I can acknowledge that any uncomfort I feel is a result of my own insecurities.
As background: I'm in a monogamous relationship, and can not imagine being in a poly relationship with someone I really cared for because I am a jealous person. I understand that jealousy is essentially a fault - but it's also something so deeply rooted in my mind and in my emotions that it would be excruciating to try to 'get over'. I have been physically sickened by the idea of my partner being with someone else. And so, I accept it as simply an indicator that I am more suited to a mono relationship. Fair enough, to each his/her own.
When I come across people who are doing well in poly relationships - I feel... inadequate? I immediately head down the mental track of "would my relationship be better if I could deal with a polyamorous lifestyle?"... and then I hit the inevitable "would my spouse be happier?". Then I feel bad for who I am, for being suited to nothing but monogamy. Like I am flawed by not being able to stomach the idea of an open relationship.
Then, the defensiveness comes around. The (irrational) kicker is the idea of monogamous people left heartbroken when their lovers decide to pursue a poly lifestyle. How sad, how painful. And I feel threatened, for myself and for other monogamous people, by what heartbreak there would be if polygamy, which seems like such a free and fun style of relationship were to "win over" our spouses. Now, this is the emotional side of my brain here, and the rational side (thankfully stronger in most cases) understands how stupid and unreasonably fearful (not to mention insecure) that is.
It's like... If there was a really awesome cake. I am allergic to this awesome cake. I am also allergic to my spouse having any of the awesome cake. But the cake is pretty awesome. I don't want my spouse to have it, because I will get really sick. Now there are some friends of ours enjoying the cake, and they seem to really like the cake. Man, do I feel bad about being allergic.
My spouse maintains she/he doesn't want any of the cake, but that may be just because I'm allergic. Even if my relationship is good enough that I can trust my spouse... they may genuinely not want the cake, but maybe only because I can't have it? What if I didn't exist, would my spouse eat the cake?
Or, for those who may not trust their spouse: Shit, that cake is so awesome. I can see those people are happy with the cake. I wonder if my spouse wishes he/she could have the cake. What if my spouse wants the cake so badly, it keeps her/him up at night? What if s/he leaves, so s/he can have cake?
For my part, if the awesome cake was so important to my spouse that they wanted to leave me over it, I'd want my spouse to have the cake, and I'd hope the cake really is awesome. I'd be understandably sad for quite a while, though.
In reality, having your spouse leave you to pursue a polyamorous lifestyle is probably an incredibly infrequent occurrence. I recognize that, and again: I don't feel anger at people who are polyamorous, nor do I feel there is at all anything 'wrong' about choosing to be. I only hope to shed light on where the stupid feelings of uncomfort re: polyamorous relationships come from. For me, at least.
In a word, it comes down to insecurity, I guess. I assume it's similar reasoning that a lot of people feel threatened by homosexuality?
I did a little research and I found the 'disconnect': "Poly" - as in "polyamory" is defined by some to be only about sex and by others to be about 'relationship' and sex. Clearly you think it is about the relationship.
That is why I included the last paragraph in my post #8.
Why don't you come to SF and help me 'man-up', kitten?
Hardly anybody -- or, at least, hardly any poly people -- defines polyamory to be just about sex. Hence the "amour" part of the word.
Non-monogamy that's just about sex is swinging. As a swinger, I don't think I'd feel compelled to bring it up to people. As a poly person, I've found it very hard to avoid mentioning my poly-ness, because all of my partners were central to my life. To only mention the one I was married to, or the one I had been with the longest, would have felt disrespectful to my other important relationship(s). I've been the secondary who is introduced to the world as a "friend", and it can be quite hurtful.
See my comments @33, but also, that's not ALL poly people. You don't know about the quiet ones, because they're being quiet. :)
Now, regarding the topic at hand, it's about defending a lifestyle that is neither immoral nor harmful when the ignorant proclaim it to be. Not sex, and not a polygamous relationship involving more than two partners as PWFU makes pretty clear in the letter. Just the fact that two committed people can trust each other enough to be poly.
You may never have these kinds of judgmental conversations come up in SF, land of sexual freedom, but they do come up in most places where the traditional norms still hold sway. Try to remember that the next time you read something like this.
Somehow my cynicism about the letter writer's motives turned into me being judgmental about people's sexual practices and relationships. So let me say it diplomatically: I have no standing to be judgmental about anyone's sexuality. Not that I want to be judgmental.
Having moved to SF just before the peak of the sexual revolution, I have tried it all and for the most part, it is all good and healthy. And even when it isn't my 'thing' I never judge anyone about what they do in private.
And I wasn't throwing a bone to anyone. Again my point is that your mama isn't interested in who you fuck. She is interested if you have a more-than-sexual relationship with one or more partners. The vibe I got from the letter was that the PWFU is someone who needs attention and wanted to use their poly lifestyle as a means of getting it from their family and friends.
I can accept that I may have read it wrong or that it could have been seen differently. But Christ in a tortilla, some people really went overboard as to what they thought I was saying.
But that is how we (yes, including me) progressives sometimes treat one another, due to our binary approach to analysis: If it isn't Democrat, it must be Republican. If I think the letter writer is full of crap, I must be judging poly relationships, which is not the case.
There's a fine line somewhere in here. I have nothing against polys or vegans but somehow "public education" becomes defensiveness becomes sanctimoniousness becomes proselytization.
Thank you for sharing. I suppose most negative reactions come from fear.
I once was a third in an open marriage and kept it to myself for years, because the subject never came up in conversations. After moving to the deep south and hearing negative comments about any non-biblical-sanctioned relationships I felt obligated to represent an alternative view. That didn't go over so well, ....now I only share with close friends, only when the subject comes up. Luckily I don't live in the deep south anymore.
@29: Thank you for your honesty! When you've thought out your personal reactions to that extent, well, it's really okay if you conclude poly is not for you. It boils down to insecurity for me too-- if I thought maybe our relationship wasn't strong enough for him to stay with me, or even for me to resist infatuation and run off with another partner, well, we couldn't be open. We were monogamous for two years, building trust, building a connection we were sure we wanted to commit our lives to. In that respect, our commitment is the reason why we can be with others in addition.
Because sex is a major, defining component of marriage, and it's disingenuous to point to asexual couples as some sort of proof that it is not. If all I ever use my cell phone for is texting, that's fine for me, but I am in a small minority and it's silly of me to extrapolate that therefore people who actually call others on cell phones are somehow using those phones wrong. (And annoying strangers when they talk on cell phones in public! Look at that comparison work!) Also, and more importantly, if I speak generally about "using my cell phone," well, people are going to assume I'm talking on it. It is no stretch at all, if I talk about my spouse, for you to assume that that person is someone I'm having and plan to continue having sex with.
It would also, of course, be silly to assume that I'm only using that phone for conversation, never for texting, going online, calculating tip, and whatever else. Of course the word marriage implies an emotional attachment and commitment above and beyond sex-- well, so does the word polyamory. Maybe these things were amorphous once, but we are certainly past the point where "polyamory" can be broken down, in connotation as well as etymology, as "many loves," while "swinging" is the term for one emotional and sexual relationship and other purely sexual ones. The walkie-talkie of phones, if you will.
In essence, Gary SF was treating polyamory as if it was swinging when he referred to it as a "sexual practice." Susan was trying to get him to acknowledge that polyamory is a relationship style with both a sexual and an emotional component, bringing it more in line with marriage (or, at least, a committed, respectful relationship).
Of course, explaining a joke does tend to ruin it. Please don't make me do it again.
It's better than people thinking that I cheat, even if it's sometimes a touch uncomfortable. Really, how I conduct my life shouldn't be subject to any scrutiny, but people get curious.
Interestingly, the next question is almost always, "And you don't mind her dating other guys?" They never ask if SHE'S okay with me dating other women. To be fair, I'm usually talking to other men, so that's what they're concerned about.
I never bring it up unless it comes up in the course of conversation. I don't remember having to defend it to random comments at any point, but after people find out, they sometimes tell me about some failed poly relationship that they heard about. Funny how they don't tell me about every failed monogamous relationship they've ever heard about.
13 years, goin' strong.
The problem with your cake analogy is that in your example, the cake is a poison pill. Your partner takes it and it kills you. Polyamory is just about occasionally tasting somebody else's cake. It won't kill you, and your partner will come back and eat the cake that you made, too. Everyone gets cake. Different cake, all different flavours and shapes and sizes. If someone leaves you because they like a different cake better, well, they probably would have done that eventually anyway. :/
Jealousy is easier to get over than you think, IF YOU WANT TO. If you don't want to, you won't. It's fine; I still bite my nails and leave my dirty laundry on the floor. We have quirks that we're not going to get over and that we don't want to spend energy on. It means I wouldn't date you, but that hardly matters to you at this point. :)
I guess it's nice that Gary moves in circles where people don't seem to make snap judgments about other peoples' private lives. If no one ever made nasty comments about poly people to me, my urge to disclose would be zero. Although I would be inclined to bring my secondary partner to work and family functions when my husband was busy or just didn't feel like going. But not to tell anyone what we do in the bedroom.
I say, some things are better left behind closed bedrooms doors--it makes it sexier. For instance, if "ewww anal" comes up in my vanilla group of friends, am I going to go off on a 30-minute tangent explaining how awesome it is, or am I going to sit there quietly and think about the hot sex I had last night? The latter, obviously. But what do I know? I'm a happily monogamous straight girl.
Never fail to pronounce moral judgment.
Identifying in public and combating stereotypes is in a different category for me. It's the category that makes me speak up when someone assumes everyone in the room is straight, too, or when someone makes a slur against men with feminine traits. I don't always speak up, but when I don't, it feels like lying by silence. Lying about something important.
(I do appreciate that not everyone has the luxury of being out, and I don't mean to say that this is an obligation. Some people wish to be more private, and some people have custody concerns or other safety issues. But this is how I live, and it's important to me to be an activist on the subject.)
But it's also unfair to characterize that as something intrinsic about being poly. (Just as it's unfair to characterize all gay people as a bunch of slutty, showy, rub-it-in-your-face drama queens because you saw a gaggle of dudes rollerblading topless in a Pride parade.) Yes, there are the poly folk who over-share. Yes, there are the queer folk who over-share. But there are also the live-right-next-door-to-you, functional, happy, non-monogamous (or gay, or both) people who enjoy mundane things like gardening and having both (or all) of their sweeties join them for Thanksgiving dinner with the family.
Speaking personally, I don't go around wearing a shirt that says, "I'm in a poly relationship; as me how!" I bring it up, as appropriate, in context of a conversation. Maybe people are kvetching about open relationships and making all kinds of assumptions about them. Maybe they're talking about wishing they had the nerve to tell their partner that they want to open up their relationship. Maybe they're asking what I did with my weekend, and I happen to have spent it consoling my boyfriend's wife about some rotten jerk who just broke her heart. Maybe someone asks what the boyfriend has been up to lately, and I say, "Oh, he and his wife just went on a trip to visit sea lions off the California coast."
If I was simply fucking other people, I would see little need to share that with co-workers, acquaintances, or family members. But it's stickier when you're talking about ongoing, romantic, long-term love, and I see no reason that I, or anyone, should have to hide that.
You: So me and my significant other...
Evil!Poly!Whore: AUGH WHY ARE YOU EXCLUSIVE YOU ARE SO MORALLY AND SOCIALLY BANKRUPT FOR NOT KEEPING DOZENS OF LOVERS.
You: I think poly is really messed up and ruins relationships.
Evil!Poly!Whore: Could you maybe not make sweeping conclusions about the way I live my life?
You: DON'T YOU FUCKING JUDGE ME.
I had a coworker recently come-out to me because she suspected that my wife and I had an open relationship from our conversations about jealousy and other matters. I never offered anything-up, but she is having some issues in her relationship and needed someone to talk to, and most people wouldn't understand.
Again, we won't bring-up the subject outside of a prospective partner, but if asked we'll tell the truth.
I came out as bisexual to my family and friends this year. My mom and brother both said something along the lines of "I'd sort of assumed that..." and my dad was kind enough to let me know he loved me no matter who I loved.
The point of coming out (as any of the LGBTQs, Poly &c.) isn't about getting folks to pay attention to you or to define yourself. It's to be honest about who you are. Some folks are stereotypes, some folks use the labels to define themselves as someone cooler. But some people just need to be honest with their friends and family about who they are and if their friends and family can't accept them, go out and find better friends and family.
So yeah, I'm bisexual (or queer, or whatever: I am sexually and romantically interested in people with gender being a minor factor in that). I've been in poly relationships in the past and probably will be in the future. But you know, I'm a quiet dude who keeps to himself. I'm not your stereotype, because you assume normative things about me and I don't care to validate or invalidate your view of the world. There's not enough time before the heat death of the universe to deal with stupid people.
I came out as bisexual to my family and friends this year. My mom and brother both said something along the lines of "I'd sort of assumed that..." and my dad was kind enough to let me know he loved me no matter who I loved.
The point of coming out (as any of the LGBTQs, Poly &c.) isn't about getting folks to pay attention to you or to define yourself. It's to be honest about who you are. Some folks are stereotypes, some folks use the labels to define themselves as someone cooler. But some people just need to be honest with their friends and family about who they are and if their friends and family can't accept them, go out and find better friends and family.
So yeah, I'm bisexual (or queer, or whatever: I am sexually and romantically interested in people with gender being a minor factor in that). I've been in poly relationships in the past and probably will be in the future. But you know, I'm a quiet dude who keeps to himself. I'm not your stereotype, because you assume normative things about me and I don't care to validate or invalidate your view of the world. There's not enough time before the heat death of the universe to deal with stupid people.
Very interesting point about the personality type! But then, why aren't more lesbians poly? :p
@56/57
Dude, you are so right about the heat death bit. But I wouldn't call you 'quiet'. ;)
That being said, I do have some poly friends that kinda overshare. I think in some cases it might be an invite, but maybe I'm just flattering myself. At any rate, when I saw this: http://www.theonion.com/content/node/387… I had to send it to the S/O, and much mirth was had.
No, not really, since it makes it more difficult to call myself a lesbian when I have a male partner as well as my female partner. She and I have been together for 16 years, and we have been with our OSO for 9 years.
He is one of the very few men to pass the lesbian-in-a-male-body test (he would become female if he could,) and he also has a lesbian worldview. This does not make us a lesbian trio, does it? Nope, just a bunch of queers who have a fucking great time together.
I was kidding. Making fun of the stereotypical lesbian love of 'processing'. I know there are poly lesbians. ;)
@60
Again, I was teasing you, m'dear.
Is my humormaker broken today? :p
Non-poly person, at party: So did you hear that A and B broke up today? B cheated on A.
Obnoxious poly person: See, this wouldn't happen if people would just get comfortable with polyamory! I just don't understand these people with their old-fashioned ways and attachment to monogamy ... (etc. etc.)
Non-poly person: Maintaining multiple relationships seems a bit too much to handle, I think.
Obnoxious poly person: Well, I suppose it's not for EVERYONE, you know. Just those who are, you know, enlightened and in touch with themselves enough to handle that sort of thing. (arm cross and smug smile)
(another poly person joins in, nodding in agreement and they chat away about how enlightened they are)
(non-poly person looks around for the door)
Yes, this does happen. I've got nothing against people loving/screwing multiple people. But if I did elect to maintain multiple relationships, I'd stay as far away as possible from any formal "poly community" for this very reason. Ugh.
We don't all feel that way. Seriously. Maybe I did for about the first 10 minutes of my poly career, but then I figured out how fucking hard it is. My personal issue? Men in really impressive denial about their angry, jealous, not-really-poly-but-pretending-for-their-man's-sake partners. There is a great abundance of these couples. Avoid them like the plague.
(Hey, women? DON'T BE THAT PARTNER. You are not doing anybody any favors. Kthx.)
Polyamory and monogamy are both extremely challenging, for different reasons. I'm capable of both, and wouldn't recommend one over the other on their merits. Know yourself, pick your poison. *shrug*
"So Bill.. What did you do this weekend?"
"Well, Sheila and I went down to the Cha-Cha and picked up a brooding emo boy. Sheila f**ked his brains out while I watched and rubbed one out into a copy of Tiger Beat. It was a hoot!"
I got no problem with you living your life and being free in doing whatever and whomever you choose.. But seriously, you can also feel free to keep it the f**k to yourself.
For our society to be that relaxed about sex, it boggles the mind.
This one dreams.
Even in stereotypical monogamous relationships, there's going to be differences. One couple may allow for lap dances while another won't allow that kind of contact, but he trusts his wife with her dishy secretary on week-long business trips. It's the same thing in the poly community.
Polys are no more enlightened than folks in monogamous circles. Folks in sex-positive circles may generally, by experience, be more aware of what they can handle, what they like, what they must have, and so on, but this is just a matter of self exploration.
In my experience it's more about being able to acknowledge one's partners, to your family, friends, coworkers, et cetera.
I can't imagine having to lie about or deny those who are important to me.
I'm lucky, as I don't have to. My coworkers can't say a word, and my family and friends accept who I am. Others are not as fortunate, and it is on their behalves that I am unashamedly "out."