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800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
Sex with men? Boring, strenuous, messy, and disgusting. Sex with women? Mmmm ...
Cheating is not having sex with someone outside of your relationship or any other specific act. Cheating is anything you do that violates the trust of your partner or any established rules you have.
I do think this woman needs to polish her acting skills a little because how much fun is it really to fuck someone who just lies there wishing it was over? And I also think she needs to initiate a conversation about the possibility of her husband getting his needs met outside the relationship some of the time. Or another possibility, if this woman has no need for a physical relationship at all, is for the two of them just to be good friends and for the husband to marry someone who actually wants to have sex with him.
I would find it intensely distressing to have sex with someone who clearly didn't want to have sex with me, who was instead bored, stressed out, and disgusted. It would be hurtful to me as a human being to have a sex partner so completely put off by what we were doing.
So, PDPMN, if you are reading this letter, I hope that you are 100% sure that your husband is okay with what is going on. Because rather than being worried that your husband might fall in love when he has sex with someone else, I would be worried that you are hurting him when you have "boring, strenuous, messy, and disgusting sex with him." You say he seems relieved, but ultimately you have no idea why he is relieved. Is he relieved because he doesn't want to try to get you hot, or because he doesn't want to try only to fail again?
Simply, I really think you need to talk to him about this. No more "seems" this or "seems" that.
don't hate! it's awesome that you're gay and everything, but misogyny doesn't look good on you, and it hurts your cause when people try to generalize about you, too.
Or, y'know, she could go on with the "ho hum, my husband will probably fall in love with someone else and leave me, guess that's life" attitude.
You have to be kidding.
@3,
It's possible that she's lucked out and found a guy who's really apathetic in bed.
Please note the writer's husband didn't write.
Science and logic are NOT some of Dan's strengths....
Second, I cannot imagine not enjoying sex. I would certainly hate being married to somebody who did not enjoy it. Both of us would be miserable.
Does this mean she is not going to be up for a three way?
Here's what helped me: 1) Learn how to masterbate. 2) Learn what turns you on, no matter how kinky it is. 3) Watch/look at porn, what do you like/don't like? 4) Watch/look at more of it, 5) practice #1. 6) Bring those ideas up with your partner. Even if he's not willing to indulge, talking about it could be a huge turn-on. After all this, I took a complete 180 in my sex drive. And I didn't do it for him, I did it for me. (Again, see #1). Now I'm the one unsatiated.
And if she is okay with opening up the relationship, may I suggest that she try someone new too? It could be just him that is boring, strenuous, messy, and disgusting.
"All you every think about is sex"
"To you I'm just a sex object"
"Maybe if you'd do (or stop doing) X, I'd want to have sex"
"Pressuring me to have sex is wrong."
I find it hard to believe that this kind of relationship can be healthy or sustainable. I don't know why they stay together, but it wouldn't surprise me that this marriage ends within a few years.
Maybe I'm weird, but a big part of what gets me off, is getting my partner off. I can't imagine having sex with someone who is completely bored, disgusted, or indifferent to my efforts. How awful. I love getting off, but I love seeing my partner get off just as much.
This will end badly.
Very very badly.
Also, I'm with Dan...Glee fucking sucks.
Except that sexual exclusivity was still very, very much expected of the woman involved, and any hint of indiscretion would often bring the marriage crashing down around her feet, leaving her not only social shamed but financially desperate. Meanwhile, even if the husband was assumed to have a mistress, the arrangement was generally far from open and honest, and could still cause a great deal of heartbreak.
We've swung the pendulum now to expect both genders to be monogamous in marriage. Maybe one day it will swing past to the other side, and degrees of honest nonmonogamy for everyone can become the norm...
Reading this letter, I couldn't decide which was more distressing, the fact that the wife married a guy she's not sexually attracted to, or the fact that the husband seems to be a-ok boning a disinterested wife.
Also, I agree with 14 about the wording of "It's ok if you cheat." It's not cheating if you have permission.
I'd also be curious to know if she's tried women and/or mechanical aids. Sex with men is not always the best way of gauging a woman's sexual pleasure.
Only two things have changed: women have almost as much social permission to cheat as men (which admittedly isn't much) and women are able to leave. When women used to be trapped in marriage, they were forced to tolerate cheating. Men have never tolerated cheating from women.
I can see how a man would put up with a not-so-interested sex partner... Probably laziness, mostly, and lack of access or attractive looks. The first willing and able girl that makes it easy for him to make entry will steal his attention, and potentially, his heart... I knew a woman like this lady. I couldn't understand why she didn't like sex, and the second she left the room, her husband was drooling all over me. She didn't seem to think that it was that important that he wanted me, as long as she was 'the main partner', and that I posed no threat to steal him. She wanted me to be the sex doll she wasn't, and suggested that I fill the job position she didn't want to fill. I cut off communication with both of them pretty quickly after that.
I wonder if PDPMN likes masturbation or vibrators? Maybe he can stimulate her that way instead if just the old 'in-and-out' routine.
There is so much tangled unhappiness here... ugh. I can't even imagine why they're still together (unless it's "for the kids," but she doesn't mention any). Just reading this letter made me unhappy.
She ought to get her hormone levels checked and maybe see a therapist to unravel why she hates sex so much. (And maybe investigate the possibility that she's just not into her husband? She doesn't mention whether the thought of any other sort of sex might do it for her.) I know you say it's okay for her to hate sex, Dan, but I'm not sure I'd say so. I mean, it's okay, she has the right, but it sure doesn't seem healthy.
If everything else in your marriage is great, it can be hard to admit to yourself (and the other person) that yes, the sex is actually a deal-breaker. Some people like to believe that love is enough. I blame The Beatles.
Man. Dan, what do I have to do for you to take me seriously? Try it out--I've posted the whole damn thing here on SLOG. Try it yourself, temporarily. It causes premature ejaculation in men, but at least then you would see that it physiologically works.
And the way she talks about it sounds like she experiences sex pretty much like rape. It would be one thing if it did nothing for her, but she didn't mind it, but to actually DETEST it? Does her husband even know her feelings? Are they both doing this occasional rape thing knowing that it's rape? Talk about dysfunctional.
If I think about it too much, my head will explode.
Of course there can be psychological issues, but from this woman's description it sounds like purely a physiological thing.
How long did you try the diet? You should see results within six weeks, four weeks at full dose. It works faster on men.
First? Yeah, start with *him*. Clearly, that is how you should determine what is up with *her* sex drive. /eyeroll
56, look up "anecdotal evidence" and "placebo effect."
As for the placebo effect itself, I've had several frustrated husbands have their wives go on it unknowingly. They touted the heart-healthy benefits of it, etc., and the same results. It's not the placebo effect.
It's not universal either, but ballpark three out of four women see an obvious change.
This boggles the mind. They've only been married for two years? So the husband has never known any other kind of sex life with her. Is it really possible to go through a courtship and not experience any romantic love or affection and then think that marriage under those circumstances would be a good thing?
I think I need to see pictures of both the husband and wife. I'm thinking there might be a significant disparity in her favor for a husband to put up with this situation. And unless he is a total nimrod lacking both emotion and imagination, I can't imagine the relationship lasting much longer. I do hope they avoid having children, but that's probably why she "tolerates" sex in the first place.
honestly, i think if that's how you feel about sex then i don't think you've really tried hard enough. whatever your hang up is, try to get over it. trust me-- in the Ew sex! vs Yay sex! debate the grass IS ALWAYS greener on the Yay sex! side.
6 years down the road from high school none of those chicks seem to have that 'ew sex' mentality anymore.
#13 was spot on: if you really don't like sex, why the heck are you reading Dan Savage? i think this lady has issues...
Any chance she might have been looking for a suggestion to try girls?
Granted, I stay out of LTRs on purpose and my tone is not the letter writer's tone. (My tone is probably worse, but I don't actually mean to be condescending.) She is writing about the experience like she's being raped on a regular basis. If nothing else, she needs to address that so that she doesn't end up in a bad place mentally. Therapy - it's time to make some decisions.
@65, you are the sparkling diamond in the normally unredeemable pile of shit that is unregistered comments. Well fucking done.
Getting vaginal orgasmic ability, if you read the book, is trickier and requires that you also exercise the PC muscles. It took me a good six months of very concentrated PC muscle exercise work to gain my own vaginal orgasmic ability.
I'm not trying to sell my book here, if I were I wouldn't have posted the entire diet on SLOG. There's no reason to buy my book. I only mention it when I get frustrated that Dan doesn't talk about potential physiological reasons for low libido to women who write in to him.
Balderdash, please give me 100K to do my study and I will happily comply.
Meanwhile, @61--you're advising men to start their partners on this diet, without those partners' knowledge?? How can you expect anyone to take your plan seriously without holding to basic ethical standards?
You know, fuck it, I don't care anymore if anyone takes my plan seriously. Why should I care? More horny men for women like me. It's not worth going through all this crap, I've done my best to get the word out there. I don't have to do it anymore. If Savage irritates me I can just stop reading his column, nobody is holding a gun to my head.
Since he likes things as they are, she should talk to him before trying to act, he may not want her to act. The hand lotion is a bad idea for her health, they should switch to lube.
My husband has a low sex drive due to medical and medication issues. I love him, He's a fabulous, smart, kind, funny person. But the sex isn't there. So, I have a boyfriend. My husband knows that I am not going to leave him for my boyfriend (they like each other, though they're not like best buddies or anything), and he doesn't have the stress of feeling like he's denying me, or hurting my feelings, or all those other things one feels when a partner isn't interested. It might not be the Platonic ideal of a relationship, but it works for us, everyone's happy, and I don't feel unloved and undersexed.
This may not be PDPMN's problem, and many people do have a naturally low sex drive, or a hormonal problem. But I think it's worth checking into whether you are creating your own hormonal problem by putting extra hormones into your body that you don't really need. There are other options. It worked for me.