Man, what an asshole. His marriage is already doomed.
Heh, I agree, Matt.
Jesus Fucking Christ people. How can one be in a "marriage" when they cant even say "hey babe, I want to watch you bang other people" if it means enough to engage in a sexual act with another person (he didn't touch, but the planning and watching makes him a participant).

If all these letters are what the religious tradition of marriage is like, I'm getting a god damn civil union.

@1 DOOMED is right. It's probably already over.
Wait, everyone involved is straight though, right? Ok, good, seems to me it's all cool as long as there are no queers involved. There is a guy watching a guy have sex with a girl though, that seems kinda queer to me. I guess if he doesn't ever look at the guy's wang, it'd be ok. I'm not sure though. I think this might make them both gay.
doomed doomed doomed doomed.

@1 ftw.
I feel bad for the ex-wife's lover. He's about to be spied-upon in a horrifying way. He has a right to privacy when he's having sex and being all naked and vulnerable and stuff.
I think I dated this guy once.

Once was enough.
No mention of how the ex-wife's current lover would be getting victimized in this scenario? I'm disappointed in Dan this time.
That conversation with your ex-wife, where you talked about watching her bang her current lover?

In case you were wondering at what point you starting fucking around on your current wife, that conversation was a pretty bright line.
yeah, the "can I do it anyway' means he doesn't really give a crap if it IS cheating, he just wants something to point to so it's not his fault when he gets caught. Gracious, really, I hope his wife figures out this is him/gets him to talk about it, so she can either be in on it or DTMFA.
What happened to consent? What happened to a reasonable expectation of privacy?

I'm more-or-less cool with just about anything that two (or more) consenting adults want to do. But COCK is talking about spying on people having sex, without the consent of one of them. Facilitated by the other, no less.

With or without his wife's okay, this is still seriously fucked up.
Just to be clear.

If I was the lover in this scenario, and I found out after-the-fact that you were spying on me without my knowledge or consent, I'd cut your balls off.
It's not very often that I read one of these posts and the answer is so obvious that the first comment pretty much says it all. This is one of those times, though. Jesus, what a jerk.
I agree completely. I would feel horribly horribly violated if I was spied on while having sex. I am rather surprised that Dan did not really mention how this would be bring an unwilling participant into their sex life.
@6, 8, 11
So true. As someone who has been on the receiving end (twice!) of a peeping tom (different guys, years apart), it's a huge violation.
If the guy doesn't consent, the wife is just as much of a jackass as this idiot.
*bringing *
@6 Yeah, I'm kind of surprised Dan didn't mention that. I wouldn't be down with being watched if I didn't know about it beforehand.
Sorry, but I see a missing issue here. If this is going to be done without the consent of the lover, than this is just shy of sexual assault.

Dan, I've seen you say that when someone engages in sexual acts in places they may be caught they are essentially turning the people who run into the whole affair into non-consensual participants in the sex act. This is not OK.

If the guy finds out, let alone if he finds him during the action, he will, at minimum, feel violated. COCK and his ex have no right to submit a third party to their fantasy without their prior consent. If he does he deserves to get his ass kicked by the lover.
If someone is still having this kind of relationship with his ex, then what was the point of getting married? Is this any different than the serial dating of all those 30-something urban douchebags who can't bring themselves to act over 23?
You shouldn't have asked. You will do it anyway.
What a limp little prick.

You can't be bothered to ask your wife; you can't be bothered to inform the guy; and yet you still think you deserve the reward of getting your fantasy fulfilled. Fuck you. Self-entitled little shit.

Dan, you're too easy on this dude. I want a yacht, but if I'm going to get one I'm going to have to work for it. This guy just wants to go down to the marina and steal one and never think about who he's taking it from or the possible consequences of getting caught stealing it. Sure, he MIGHT get away with it, but it's wrong and it's a stupid risk.
Get some measure of 1) permission from your wife and 2) assurance that if (when?) the other guy finds you hidden in the closet he won't freak out and bash your head.
ewwwwwwwwww. i wish i could unread that letter.
They shouldn't have gotten divorced. these lying cheating douchbags were made for each other.

Word to the wise - there are tons of couples on craigslist who want to be watched.
If these two asshats really wanna go ahead with this... they should bring a stranger into it. Yeah she'd be cheating on her current, but at least the stranger would know he was being watched... and if I was the current I'd much rather get cheated on than unknowingly watched. And they could turn it into an MMF if everyone was so inclined. I really don't see how setting up this whole thing up and going thru with it could be made *that* much worse by sex organ to sex organ contact (except from the health stand point, so use condoms).
Ok course it would be "funny" if the ex-wife's lover ended up being the guy's wife.

More likely though he'll be Frank Booth and you'll be Jeffrey Beaumont.
"and if you're also sure that the men you're spying on wouldn't mind too much or react too homicidally if you're discovered (here's hoping the ex told her lover(s) and is only letting you think they dno't know)"

That's a pretty good reason on its own not to do this.
I'm with 6, 8, 11, etc, and I'm surprised Dan didn't mention it. Surely if two people want to arrange a scenario like this they at the very least need to inform the third party.
@29 and others: Dan DID mention the other guy(s) being violated:

"...If you're also sure that the men you're spying on wouldn't mind too much or react too homicidally if you're discovered (here's hoping the ex told her lover(s) and is only letting you think they don't know) and if you've checked the local and state laws where you live and you're not going to wind up on a sex-offender registry if this all blows up in your face..."
What sort of divorce was this that the two of these ex-spouses are cool with this arrangement? I've never known divorced people to be willing to even be around one another any longer than they have to be, so this seems completely alien that they'd be down with this.

I got a laugh out of Dan's suggestion to "really drain those balls" before sitting down to think this out. If only more people did that...
Go for it!!
@ 32, my brother-in-law's first wife has continued to hit on him for 9 years, since their marriage was dissolved. She used to hit on his second wife, too. (They had kids, or else he would eventually have cut her out of his life completely.)

Come to think of it, he and his second wife (also an ex) used to screw a lot the year following their breakup, but since that marriage was childless they eventually moved on. Ex-wife number one still carries the torch, though.
Perhaps the ex wife is trying to set him up, so that he DOES end up with a sex offender charge.
Funniest. Response. Ever.
There's a difference between "this is a shitty and creepy quasi-assault on another person" (a concept which recognized the humanity of the spied-upon bf, and which Dan breezed by) and "oh yeah, it might be illegal and you could go to jail", which revolves only around what could happen to the LW. It's a grotesque moral wrong whether or not the LW goes to jail or gets his nuts turned into flesh tortillas.

Yeah, I wondered about that too. Ex-spouses aren't exactly the people you should be trusting with this sort of thing. Maybe she wants him to get caught and have the crap kicked out of him by the new bf ... that might be the real kink being planned here.

Hard to care about the creep, though. If either is his ex's goal then it's hard to avoid a bad case of "couldn't happen to a nicer guy!", no?
i'm really happy to live in a world where such a fantastically fucked up situation might occur, and that somewhere, somehow... these people could exist & this could happen.
Matt's right - it's only a matter of time before this jerk puts his dick where it doesn't belong. And yes, I feel for the poor guy's wife (and possibly the ex-wife's current lover).
Funniest. Response. Ever.
I'm disappointed that LC isn't here to defend the sanctity of hetero marriage.
Anyone heard of the story in Herodotus about the king who made a soldier watch him and his wife having sex? Long story short, she killed him.

Good luck with that scenario, SEX - switch the genders, and you're doomed.
@ 35 and 37. From a practical point of view, it's putting WAY too much power into the hands of not only someone who might have reason to want to hurt your wife (whose well-being she's willing to disregard anyway by proposing this stupid thing), but also who seems to be willing to disrespect the rights of her own lover(s). Plus, it's scummy as hell all the way around. You can justify anything if you try. Doesn't make it unscummy.
If this guy is a half-decent person (which I sort of doubt...but you never know!) then hopefully Dan's advice and the comments will be the wake up call he so desperately needs. I hope he exceeds my expectations and cleans himself up, for his wife's sake.
Seriously, dude, WTF. It is terrifying to think that I might one day marry someone this duplicitous and inconsiderate. Tell your goddamn wife about your fantasies and cut off contact with your manipulative tease of an ex, or just divorce the poor woman before you go through with this bullshit or something worse.
In his comment, "here's hoping the ex told her lover(s) and is only letting you think they don't know) and if you've checked the local and state laws where you live and you're not going to wind up on a sex-offender registry if this all blows up in your face..."
Dan is acknowledging that the woman has a responsibility to obtain the consent of her lover, also, he is letting the writer know that if the woman's lover has not given his consent, he is likely to respond badly (and anyone would agree would be well within his rights). Dan also continually tells the guy that he shouldn't do this and also points out that no matter how you slice it, it's wrong.
Weird how COCK specifies that he fantasizes about "her" -- his ex-wife -- with someone else, rather than "a woman" with someone else. Is this a fantasy that he only holds about his ex? Could it be a fantasy that his current wife can't even really fulfil, even if she wanted to? Because, man, COCK is just turning out to be a bigger and bigger douchebag.
@47 - I wondered about that, too. I wonder if it's a sort of psychological cuckolding he's after -- perhaps as an extension of the rejection he received at the end of the marriage?

When I have a toothache, somehow it always seems like it will feel better if I dig the hell out of my gums with some floss, too. When I'm depressed, I always have the twisted notion that I'll feel better if I listen to depressing music. Perhaps watching the woman who rejected him reject him in the most explicit way possible - by fucking another man in front of him - is the dental floss he hopes to dig into the gums of his heart-toothache.

OR he's just not over her, not committed to his current wife, and has the dishonorable habit of placing his own desires in front of his self-appointed obligations.
Its funny how many people ask your permission to do something they know they shouldn't do.

"But Dan Savage said it was ok!"
Haha, all those qualifiers, and the disclaimer(s), were spot-on! Because, no, he shouldn't do it, for all the reasons you mentioned. If I was the current wife, and I found out after the fact, I'd be totally heartbroken.

One thing, however, that might act as a compromise: What if the ex-wife set up a web cam in her bedroom, turned it on for the sex, and the guy watched from his own home computer? That seems like a way to significantly reduce the "connection" aspect of the situation, since he could just turn off the cam when it was over. It might even be a situation that his current wife would be more likely to okay, since it would basically just be live porn. MIGHT.

I have to disagree with the popular notion that his marriage is already doomed, though. Just because you're still attracted to your ex and get obsessed with a crazy fantasy like that doesn't mean you don't fully love your current spouse. He might change his mind about this if he decides the risk of ending his marriage is too high, after he has time to calm down and think about it rationally like Dan said.
What's going to happen is he's going to do this anyway. If he's writing Dan, he already knows its wrong, but is trying to find a justification, any justification, so he doesn't feel guilty about it. It isn't about getting away with it wrt to his wife, it's about his own head.

He'll do it and then... he'll be in the closet and he'll make some noise. Maybe he'll sneeze, maybe he'll just accidentally knock something over. The odds of him NOT making noise are about a million to one. Jesus. Did this man never play hide and seek as a kid? It's almost impossible to stay perfectly quiet for hours on end.

He'll be discovered....Then one of two things will happen: best case scenario, he gets the shit kicked out of him. Then he's going to have to explain that to the wife, his boss, his parents, etc. Maybe he'll be forgiven, but probably not.

Worst case scenario, the guy being watched is cool headed enough to call the cops. After the cops stop laughing at the LW, they'll arrest him and the ex and let the DA figure it out. In this sort of case, many DAs will charge them bother. God help them if it's an election year or the DA is a sex assault crusader or religious, etc., etc. At a minimum, this will be a violation of the peeping tom statutes. In an increasing number of states, that's going to land you on a sex offender registry. That will mean he'll lose his wife, his job, and possibly friends and family. Depending on the state, there are a whole host of other charges that can be brought. And that's not even talking about the civil suit he can subject himself to b/c this is intentionally acting in a way a reasonable person would know to cause distress to the third party. In many states, it's also a violation of other rights that will subject LW to other civil claims.

So, yes, LW, if you are willing to risk losing your wife, your job, your house and all your assets, please go for it.

Of course, if LW had a set of balls, he'd tell the wife he was bored, the ex was trying to seduce him and he wase wrong, wrong, wrong to be so involved with the ex, but he found the scenario hot and if she were GGG wrt this fantasy, he might be willing to indulge her fantasies. And he'd use CL to find a willing 3rd. Of course, that would take the thrill out of it for the LW b/c he's a selfish CPOS who think's he's so cool and enlightened b/c he views this as sexually open when it's really just selfish asshat behavior.

Real men tell their wives about their fantasies and give them a chance. (They also are open to their wives' fantasies). Only sadistic CPOSs do what this man has done.
OMG, I'm having a flashback to the 80's. Does anyone remember the tacky tabloid show A Current Affair?
Anyway, there was this kinky married couple in Florida who did pretty much the same thing, with the husband watching through the louvered doors of the closet. But this is where it really gets nasty. The husband would then blackmail these men, most of whom were prominent and well-to-do. Some of them were community leaders. At least one of the victims notified the police and that's how the couple got busted.
Sure wish I could remember their names. I think they were convicted but I can't remember their sentences. Gives you something to think about it, doesn't it?
Oh, yeah, LW's a miserable s.o.b. Hope he gets his ass kicked and his current wife divorces him.
Keep in mind that the letter writer would be sexually violating the guy the ex-wife has sex with. Imagine being watched by some unknown guys. EW!

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