Comments

1
GODDAMMIT this makes me furious!
2
FUCK!!!
3
More sellouts to the radical extreme right who will never love him or support him, because they hate the fact that he's our first Black President.

Very very bad decision.
4
This makes me angry.
5
If this is true, it is indeed infuriating. When will Dems learn they risk their most ardent supporters for the never going to happen support of right wingers? All at the expense of women! Goddamnit!
6
Sacrificing women's health does NOT translate into more votes for Democrats. It demoralizes their base while appeasing a constituency that will never, EVER, vote Democratic for any reason. It translates to fewer votes for Democrats, not more. Intelligent people see this. Apparently, since they kicked Howard Dean to the curb, there are no, (or few), intelligent people running the Democratic Party.
7
fuck obama. maybe i'm just being idealist (and i know bringing up the past doesn't help), but i can't imagine hillary doing this
8
I hate to say "I told you so," but I really did, you know.
9
@7: Oh, please. You must not remember the Clinton years very well. Obama's tactic of playing to the middle is straight out of their playbook.
11
If I had known that happenings in my very own uterus could win or lose votes, I would have been cashing in on that a lot sooner. Thanks Dems!
12
Oh, I get it Obama. If you get pregnant but it may kill you because of health reasons, you just have to die if your poor. I mean, what's losing a few women compared to votes you probably won't get anyway?
13
So right now—and for the next four years—women with serious medical conditions will be denied the comprehensive coverage they might need if they experience a complicated pregnancy.

1) They're not saying women can't have abortions. They're just saying they're not going to pay for them with that fund. There are various other ways to get cheap(er) abortions.

2) Except in certain cases (rape), women do have a choice about getting pregnant. Of course it would be disingenuous to suggest that any human being in the history of the world has exercised uniformly good judgment about sex, but it's not like a woman can just be walking down the street and be struck pregnant by god (and if she was, we probably wouldn't want her to terminate). This isn't breast cancer we're talking about. It's a procedure to mitigate the negative impact of something you don't have to do.

3) Of course, none of that matters when we're being self-righteous and uptight. By all means. Carry on.
14
Let me be clear - at this rate, I'm just not going to bother to vote for President. Because if the choice is between an Extreme Right Republican and a Right of Center Republican Lite - well, forget it.
15
@14: Don't feel guilty for not voting Will. You're doing enough to preserve democracy by your work here on Slog.
16
bill clinton dropped health care. hillary would not have dropped it. she spearheaded the first effort, and when it was unsuccessful, she retreated from the spotlight almost in entirety. when she was running against obama, she had a more impressive and inclusive health care plan, one that obama largely used as the basis of his health care plan.
17
Will in Seattle:

Yeah, I applied that approach when I voted for Nader in 2000. I did it in Washington, so it didn't end up amounting to anything here, but if you think there's no difference between Obama and whoever the GOP fields, just remember 9/11, and think about what might have happened if we'd had anyone besides Bush in office.
18
Another brilliant move by the Democratic party to kiss the asses of those who would vote GOP anyway. Remember, it was a Democrat who signed DOMA and DADT.
19
Jesus, Judah, the only thing scarier than having Bush in office on 9/11 would have been having Gore in office then.
20
Once again, the well-being of a vulnerable population is sacrificed for some convoluted notion of political expediency.
21
@13 Thank you. That's exactly* what I was going to say.

*Well, not word for word, but you know what I mean.
22
@19

Because...? And, before you answer, keep in mind that Bush used it as an excuse to legalize torture, overwrite the War Powers Act, and turn the entire rest of the world against us. Prosecuting the "war on terror" ineffectively -- which we don't actually know that Gore would have -- could hardly have been more destructive to our national interests.
23
All you pro-Hillary people think she would have had an easier time with the Senate than Obama? That she would have gotten her plan past the Party of No? Maybe if she used the nuclear option, but Dems seem just as shy about using that as the 'pubs.
24
@20

Women are fifty-two percent of the electorate. Please explain to me how that qualifies them as a "vulnerable population".
25
Oh, alright, Judah, now that you mention it, just about anybody would have been an iimprovement over Bush. Except maybe Will in Seattle.
26
@24 We're talking specifically about women with serious medical conditions who are in high risk insurance pools due to those conditions, not all women in the U.S. Reading the post before commenting is typically a good idea.
27
When the fuck will the Democrats grow spines? Even when their supporters are demonstrably in the right, they’re just unable to stand on the evidence and point out the disingenuous framing of the Republicans. Torture: evil, illegal, doesn't produce good intel and only makes more enemies, but nope, we’ll let this horrible precedent stand & won't prosecute the torturers cuz we don't wanna look "soft on terrah." Abortions: pragmatic, legal, NOT YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS, fetuses can't feel pain for the majority of the pregnancy, and there's never been any evidence that this "soul" thing even exists, and we live in a secular nation where Congress should make no law establishing a mandatory religious practice, but nope, can't look immoral.

When the Republicans can make them look immoral, you know they’re fucked.
28
So what does an abortion cost these days? Any law against setting up a privately run fund to provide financial assistance until we can get the ruling changed?
29
@26

Yes, and the post in question ends with, "I understand the politics at work here, but on a gut level—on a humane level—I wish that sacrificing women's health didn't translate into more votes for democrats."

Not some women, but women generally. And, unless Cienna is one of the sub-group you're talking about, her interest in this is certainly not the interest of a vulnerable sub-population; this is being presented as a women's issue, generally.

Being snide about someone else's perfectly reasonable inference just makes you look like a dick. You should try another approach.
30
@28: Contact your local Planned Parenthood. Either they have a fund to help out women who can't afford abortions, or they'll know who does in your community.
31
@13&21

my sister has limes disease and is therefor taking many drugs that would almost certainty cause either major, devastating birth defects or spontaneous abortion (i.e.. miscarriage), if she were to become pregnant. These drugs make it possible for her to attend school and hold down a job and maybe, someday be cured.
She is 22, in a relationship with a long term boyfriend, and takes every possible precaution against pregnancy, pills and condoms. But several of the drugs she is on lessen the effectiveness of the pill, and condoms are far from 100%.

your argument is specious and unhelpful.

32
Judah at 13, the bill denies poor, ill women access to a specific procedure that could save their lives, and that access is denied because *some* people have a moral problem with the procedure. Let's say I have a moral problem with men who aren't married getting Viagra - is that limited because of my moral objection? Hell no.

Once again, women are denied rights that men have, and this time, in the name of crap midterm election politics.
33
@17 - sometimes, you just have to throw the baby-crazy Republicants out with the bath water, even if they pretend they're Democrats.
34
@28 Contact the CAIR Project. It's basically what you're talking about.

http://www.cairproject.org/
35
...
36
@32 - can you not read? These pools will STILL cover abortions when the life of the mother is at risk.

That said, it still sucks - there are many scenarios where abortion is the more humane choice for the child.
37
I think it's unfortunate as well, but I don't think the DHS had much of a choice. The Hyde amendment makes the department's funding contingent on limiting abortion coverage to just those exceptions. Presumably any spending for the stop-gap high-risk plans has the same limitations (Obama did make a signing statement to that effect, and that was several months ago).

The reason that the future exchange plans are less restrictive is that the privately-administered plans that cover abortion have to separate the costs of any abortion coverage from any other services that receive federal subsidy (including, and especially, the subsidies that will be provided to individuals to buy plans on the exchange).

Further, insurance companies are under no obligation to offer abortion coverage in the exchanges, and I presume even if they did, they could refuse to offer abortion coverage to high-risk patients.

So, yes, the Hyde Amendment is stupid and it sucks. But Obama didn't write the Hyde Amendment. Talk to the fuckers in Congress who keep attaching it to budgetary bills.
38
BUWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

2008-
Conservatives say "Jump!" Obama says "how high?"

2009-
Conservatives think "Jump"
Obama says "how high? how many times?"

2010-
Obama just jumping all on his own like
a kangaroo on crack......
39
@31

Nothing in your comment actually contradicts the elements of my argument. If pregnancy would put your sister's life at risk, she has the option of just not having the kinds of sex that can get her pregnant. Or she can use an IUD. Or she can use condoms and rhythm. And so on.

Your claim that my arguments are specious and unhelpful would carry more weight if you actually addressed my arguments in some meaningful way.
40
@32

Your comparison is inapposite. Abortion is not the same thing, medically or socially as viagra. Nor is the issue under discussion about whether or not women can get the procedure at all, as you seem to suggest with the line, "men who aren't married getting Viagra". It's not about whether women can get abortions. It's about whether the government will pay for them.

Once again, women are denied rights that men have,

And that line is just silly. Women and men are biologically different -- of course medical treatments for them and the payment schedules for such are going to be different.

That said, women do have rights that men don't. Like, for example, the right not to sign up for the draft, or be drafted into combat. But, again, that's not really what we're talking about here.
41
Judah, Shut the fuck up.

People, Do you think Bush solely masterminded EVERYTHING for 8 years? NO, you don't. Please do not assume that everything that comes out of the government is Obama's fault.

Don't be like those baiting fox news assholes, Pretend your better than that.
42
this makes me feel so mad and so... helpless at the same time. my government doesn't give a fuck what i value or what i think. awesome.

also @41, totally agree, it's not one man, it's the whole system
43
I really don't want this to turn into a debate on the morality of abortion (and if it does, I'm staying out of it). I honestly don't have a strong opinion either way--I tend to take the pro-choice side mostly because, in a very general sense, the pro-life side consists of the type of people I don't want to be in agreement with.

That said, there are a lot of people who consider abortion murder. Some, I'm sure, have ulterior fundamentalist motives, but for many of them it's a sincere belief. Disagree with their arguments all you want, but I don't see how it's justifiable to pay for abortions with their tax money. No one likes having someone else's morality imposed on them, right?
44
@41

Because you've wrapped up the entire argument with your keen and incisive commentary? Okeydokey.
45
Stop the train, I want to get off this party. We need a party that is actually at least semi left leaning in this country. =(
46
43, I'm morally opposed to war, but my tax dollars go to pay for it... I was PARTICULARLY morally opposed to the Iraq War but I couldn't stop that either.

Judah, this is really a public health issue. The women in these risk pools shouldn't be pregnant. They have cancer, or rheumatoid arthritis, or sickle cell disease. And yep, they can use contraception, but even IUDs and tubal ligations fail. And so why should they have to jump through hoops to get a medically appropriate procedure that's available for the rest of the population? News flash: you don't check your sexuality at the door to the cancer ward.

Are there any abortion providers out there besides me who have had to use the "life of the mother" exception? I'm wondering how strictly the access is enforced, how many people have to sign off, how long approval takes, etc. The two states where I've worked haven't made it a big burden to get the exception, but I've heard that in other states the mother has to be in imminent danger of death, that preservation of her health wasn't good enough to get the procedure covered. (and don't even get me started on states where the paperwork itself is part of the harassment of abortion providers, e.g., Pennsylvania)
47
"I'm morally opposed to war, but my tax dollars go to pay for it... I was PARTICULARLY morally opposed to the Iraq War but I couldn't stop that either."

Right, and that's terrible. So why would you be in favor of something similar happening to someone else? I suppose "I have to pay for things I'm deeply and fundamentally opposed to, so you should too" isn't the worst reason in the world, but it doesn't strike me as especially compelling either.

By the way, this was my argument against massive government involvement in healthcare. Beneficial as it may be, it also gives the Republicans unprecedented power to limit the availability of procedures they find immoral. I mean, what did everyone think was going to happen? It'd be nice if the Democrats weren't so spineless, but either way, they're not going to be in charge forever.
48
I'm sorry 47, but your argument doesn't hold water. When I was growing up in Florida there were people morally opposed to giving other races equal rights (and I do mean "morally"---they had the full support of the Southern Baptists), and where I live now there are people who are morally opposed to vaccination against measles, mumps, and rubella (they believe it causes autism). Now those people are entitled to opinions and morals, even if they're different than mine, but they can only opt out of vaccination, they don't get a line-item veto on the federal budget. Abortion is no different.

And lest we forget, the women covered by this new ruling are PAYING for their insurance, not getting it free. Why shouldn't they be covered?
49
I think all the pregnant Republicant women should get to decide if they want to keep their fetus.

Because in real life, they have about the same abortion rate as everyone else.

They say one thing, and do another.
50
This is a double-win for the Right. Fewer federally funded abortions, plus the bonus of in-fighting among the demoralized Left. But hey, blaming Obama takes less effort than fighting the Right, directly or indirectly (see @28 and @34).

Here's the ACLU's action item on this, if you feel like messaging Obama and the HHS.

@46 "And yep, they can use contraception, but even IUDs and tubal ligations fail."
Over 99% effective is nothing to sneeze at, and if you, say, combine an IUD, condoms, and a hormonal BC -- well, probabilities were never my strong suit, but those are great odds.
51
Well, ADoodle, @50, combining those methods sounds good, but a lot of women with those problems are limited in the methods they can use. To wit: many cancer patients (e.g., breast, melanoma) can't use hormonal methods, and most immune-suppressed patients (rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, cancer again) can't use IUDs, and condoms have a certain chance of leakage/breakage, not to mention those of us who are latex- and Nonoxynol-9-sensitive. So yup, you're right, using belt-and-suspenders to keep your pants up is really good, but sometimes you CAN'T use both, and sometimes you're STILL gonna get caught with your pants down.

Personally, I've never had a BC failure, but I've seen them in patients with IUDs, vasectomies, pills, and so forth. Hell, even women with documented ovarian failure have a 5-10% spontaneous pregnancy rate. So, stop blaming the victims and trivializing what is a real issue for chronically ill women. Just because they're sick doesn't mean they've stopped being human and having human urges and feelings. Why can't they get covered for an appropriate medical procedure, particularly when they are PAYING for their insurance?
52
Strait forward, I disagree with this policy. Abortion should be a right for any woman for ANY circumstance. I may suggest however, to minimize as much as possible the window for abortion and it be provided free of service, and paid for by unclaimed workman's comp benefits. Instead of funding that monkey Dino Rossi. The people need back the money you stole.................DICKHEAD!
53
I used to call myself a Republican. These days, I would vote control of the house to whatever party dosen't have the presidency, just to keep them deadlocked. This, yeah this is a giant middle finger from Obama to everyone who voted for him. I can think of a lot of nasty things that can occur in a high-risk pregnancy that won't kill you. Judah, I didn't bother to keep up with your numbers, but all the methods of birth control have fairly remarkable side effects. Considering the alternative, most of us pick our poison, but to combine pills, IUD and condoms, well, quality of life would be an issue. Condoms decrease sensitivity and increase friction, regardless of lube, and that N-9 crap they inevitably come coated in causes yeast infections. Pills don't bother me much, but some women experience hefty side-effects- everything from decreased libido to death via pulmonary embolism. IUD's can cause months-long bleeding on insertion- that's common. They can perforate your uterus, they can cause urinary tract infections, and quite a few women can have allergies to the copper they 're composed of. I think you mentioned periodic abstinence? Have you ever tried that? I have. It's pretty burdensome, and I dare say not feasible for many. Abortion aside, I don't need the latest lying, spinning, pandering politician second-guessing my and my doctor's decisions, and I don't need any more of my personal interests sacrificed for the common good. But, we just keep getting that, regardless of who is in office, don't we?
54
So, stop blaming the victims and trivializing what is a real issue for chronically ill women. Just because they're sick doesn't mean they've stopped being human and having human urges and feelings.

The phrase "blaming the victim" comes from a cultural dialogue, 30 years ago, about how society treats rape victims. It is notable for describing a situation in which there was both blame, and a victim. A woman who has sex and who gets pregnant in spite of her use of contraceptives that she knows might fail is not a victim, and pointing out that she took a calculated risk and lost is not blaming her. Especially not if the thing she lost is a subsidized abortion. Not the right to an abortion, mind you -- just the subsidy.

Every political issue has people who can't see the forest for the trees: gun rights advocates who claim that requiring trigger locks deprives them of a vital constitutional right, and so on. The frustrating thing about arguing with people like that is that they're not arguing the point -- they're arguing the issue. Right now, you're one of those and there's basically no point in getting into it with you.

Allison @50

Having insurance means people who are neither you nor your doctor get involved in your medical decisions. If it's private insurance, the people getting involved in your medical decisions are bureaucrats. If it's public insurance, the people getting involved in your medical decisions are politicians (and government bureaucrats). The alternative is to pay for it yourself. That alternative is still open to the women affected by this issue. It's disingenuous to suggest that this case of interference is crossing some kind of sacred ethical line.
55
Correction my last: Allison@53
56
I get that bureaucrats in the insurance industry currently make the decisions, but as long as I pay my premiums, I can get good care. I don't trust the government to provide that assurance. The existence of insurance has driven the cost beyond what most people can pay for straight up, which is another issue entirely. Many women in the high-risk pools don't have the money to pay for their abortion straight up, and it's my understanding that not all abortions are uncomplicated, $300 jobs, especially when a medical problem causes the need for one. This is generally why such patients obtained insurance. This isn't your problem, which doesn't make you wrong, it just allows you to be removed from the underlying issue that has people worked up- Obama has screwed over a group of his own voters, in order to win over another group of voters that he thinks has more power. That's making his original voters angry, because the issue underlying the sacrifice is abortion, and that's an issue many libs take to heart, and one that Obama leaned heavily on when courting their vote a couple of years ago.
57
I get that bureaucrats in the insurance industry currently make the decisions, but as long as I pay my premiums, I can get good care.

Uh. Ha-ha? You're kidding, right? Trial lawyers make millions of dollars every year forcing insurance companies to meet their obligations to their customers. Paying your premiums is hardly a guarantee that you'll get what you paid for. And insurance companies do make ideologically-motivated decisions about who gets treatment and what kind of treatment they get. Ask an AIDS patient from the early '80s. Oh, wait, you can't -- they're all dead.

This isn't your problem, which doesn't make you wrong, it just allows you to be removed from the underlying issue that has people worked up

So... my opinion doesn't count because I'm supposedly looking at the question too intellectually? Interesting. And you say you stopped calling yourself a Republican?
58
Judah, you don't really understand. I realize this effects a very small minority of people, but it still is cruel to those that have to deal with it. I'll give a personal example.

My mother has bad case of multiple sclerosis and pretty much raised the three of us by herself. During one of the brief periods my mother remarried, she got pregnant with twins in her mid forties. Our family completely relied on the state and government for income. If she had had those babies, she would have died. Luckily, the government funded her abortion (even though she wanted the kids, she didn't want to leave us). Now this is no longer possible due to some right wing controlling religious bigots. This is not okay. I am not religious, I don't believe that life started at conception, and neither did my mother. Why should these already sick, poor women have to pay for something they should get because they woul DIE otherwise. I'm just glad that my mother is going through menopause.
59
Judah, you're explaining feminist history to ME??

Actually Judah, I was referencing William Ryan's book, circa 1970, called Blaming the Victim, which explores our cultural bias which lays the fault of poverty on the poor, and blames the powerless for their lack of power. In this case you are blaming women for having chronic medical problems and suggesting that maybe they just shouldn't be putting themselves at risk of pregnancy by having sex.

You keep going on and on about how women CHOOSE to have sex, so what do they expect? and they should pay the piper. People have sex and birth control fails and these women have medical problems that put them at risk in pregnancy. Excuse me, but abortion is a medical procedure, perfectly appropriate in these cases for prevention of complications of pregnancy, and these women are paying for medical insurance. The care should NOT be denied on ideological grounds.

Period.
60
Hey ladies, I have news for you: squatting on cocks has known side-effects.
61
Judah, take a look at the quote you pulled from my post and tell me where I said your opinion doesn't count. What I did say, and what I think just about everyone here but you gets is that this decision disregards a block of people who put Obama where he is. I think he's going to pay for that. Abortion is a big deal to many of Obama's voters. If one woman can't get an abortion because of this, that will be one woman way too many for Obama's voters. And hey, my insurance is pretty crappy now, because I work part time and pay for it myself. It's the $5K deductible type. It's total crap, and I wouldn't be a bit surprised to have to sue to get any claims through it. But, who am I going to sue when social security takes years of my tax money and goes bankrupt? Hell, this whole discussion is case in point- the government is every bit as untrustworthy as the insurance industry, they just don't ever seem to be held accountable for their abuses.
62
Judah, you can talk all day about women could do to prevent pregnancy, but it does nothing for the women who are pregnant and require abortion services. What are your solutions for them?
63
@60 So does smoking, but we don't deny care to them, do we?
64
I am trying hard, really, really hard, to think of another situation where payment for an appropriate medical treatment is withheld on ideological grounds.

Do we withhold cancer treatment from smokers because, hey! they should have known better? Do we tell HIV-infected drug users that they need to suck it up and pay for their own cocktails because it's their own fault they got the virus? Do we refuse Viagra to men who have the health habits that put them at the risk of ED (obesity, smoking)? No and no and no!

Once again, these women are the ones for whom pregnancy might be risky. They're diabetic, they have cancer, their health might be compromised by pregnancy (which, hello?, I do know a thing or two about, since I do high-risk OB care). If they choose to take on those risks and continue the pregnancy, fine, but why should an abortion be something they to pay for out-of-pocket?
65
attitude devant, You can't think of another case because pregnancy is a unique situation. Some believe the fetus to be a separate person who dies in an abortion. Some don't, but some do, and those that do are effective in their opposition to the procedure. The arguments that women shouldn't have sex because they might get pregnant are specious, but then again, quite a few people seem to see abortion as an issue of control, rather than of life. For most, though, the potential life is the problem. That's most people, I think, but you never hear them in debates, because the crazy people are the only ones arguing anymore.
66
Thank you AllisonM. We providers are very concerned when coverage for abortion is denied because abortion is an increasingly marginalized service, and when it gets marginalized to special clinics and away from doctor's offices and hospitals (as when coverage is denied), it creates targets for the crazies.

But one in three American women (that's one in six Americans) has had an abortion. This is not marginal or rare. These are hardly unique situations. These women are our mothers, our sisters, our daughters, and our wives.

Study after study shows that the majority of Americans support abortion rights. Americans are fair-minded people, in general. So why is the administration caving on as aspect of this issue that isn't even "choice"-related? Reproductive care IS health care. This (abortions for women who have good medical reasons to seek them) is health care at its most basic.
67
Judah, you're explaining feminist history to ME??

No. I was telling you why the phrase you were using was loaded and inappropriate. Not that I don't find your incredulous tone about me explaining feminist history to YOU kind of funny.

You keep going on and on about how women CHOOSE to have sex, so what do they expect?

No, I don't. What I keep saying is that there are a bunch of ways to reduce the likelihood of pregnancy and that if you can't use one, you can probably use another and that, short of that, if a woman can't afford an abortion and getting pregnant MIGHT KILL HER, it might be a good idea not to have sex. There are plenty of medical conditions and economic circumstances that make having sex a bad idea. This is, evidently, one of them.

What I did say, and what I think just about everyone here but you gets is that this decision disregards a block of people who put Obama where he is.

Oh, I get it. I just think it's bullshit. I think it's a relatively uncommon problem that affects a relatively small number of women and that it's being blown up into an issue for all women and all abortion rights advocates everywhere because some people on the left are stupid enough to want to conflate the right to have an abortion with the right to have the government pay for it. It's a bad idea on its face, and a bullshit argument in any event, and it will end up costing the Democrats more than it gains them.

@64 -- Private insurers do, actually, do most of the things you mention. They raise premiums or reduce coverage for smokers, they don't pay for viagra, they have pre-existing condition policies that cut out big swaths of people -- mostly poor people who live with environmental factors that increase their risk of certain kinds of illnesses. And, again, in the early '80s, it was extremely difficult for AIDS patients to get various treatments associated with their illness.

Jesus, people.
68
OK Judah, thanks, what I thought you were saying was: Hey, if you're chronically ill, just don't have sex.

That turns out to be exactly what you were saying. Wow. Just wow.

(also, just for fun, google "blaming the victim." The first two references are the Willian Ryan and his ideas. We don't see anything about rape until the third entry---your idea that the phrase only references rape is odd, and possibly unique to you)

Jesus, yourself!
69
Judah, way back in June, you were a big poster on the prison rape story. My recollection is that you were passionate in saying that convicts should be protected from rape, that saying that they were less deserving of protections because they were tried and convicted was unacceptable.

Why do you write off these women? I've asked you before and you haven't answered: do you think your sexuality dies when you get a chronic illness? Do you think someone is less human because they're sick? You don't seem to think they're less human if they're convicted of breaking the law. Why the difference?

You keep telling me this is a just(!) a constitutional issue, but it's really a healthcare issue. This is not about choice, it's about what is needed to maintain health for these women. Why do you insist that their sexual lives and their health are trivial?
70
@67 Abortion is not uncommon. Just because your friends and family and SO don't talk about the abortions they've had, doesn't mean they haven't. Even if it is rare, and this law only ended up directly effecting a few women, it has the possibility to effect ANY woman. I'm not pregnant right now, am in a stable relationship, have job security, good healthcare coverage, am not sick, and have a BC implant. But I have no idea what the future may be so I need to make sure it's available and affordable. The govt does not have the right to put me at risk and deny covering a medically necessary procedure.
71
@70

The issue under discussion here isn't abortions generally. It's abortions for women in a certain risk pool, somewhere between women whose lives are obviously in danger as a result of their pregnancy and women who are in no danger -- an increased risk pool, that still falls short of clear risk.

also, just for fun, google "blaming the victim."

Yeah, that sounds really fun. I'll do that.

Why do you write off these women? I've asked you before and you haven't answered

I'm not writing anyone off. That's how you're choosing to interpret my statements, so I'm disinclined to get into an argument with you about why I'm doing something I'm not doing so that you can show me how wrong I am about the thing I'm not saying. Otherwise, against my better judgment, I'll spell this out for you: prison rape is unconstitutional because the Eighth Amendment prohibits cruel and unusual punishment; actually building a prison system that enables and condones prison rape violates that prohibition. The right to an abortion is protected (and this point is extremely debatable) by the "penumbral" right of privacy. That's the right to have one, not the right to have it paid for. The right to have it paid for is a creature of statute, and can be taken away as easily as anything else the government gives you -- road funding or public schools or any of the rest of it. It doesn't address a constitutional right. It addresses money.

There. That was a nice long paragraph. I'm sure there are fifteen or twenty things in there you can misunderstand and mischaracterize. Knock yourself out.
72
Judah, in pasting my comment above you cut me off in mid-phrase and didn't quote the end of my sentence, which was a question:

do you think your sexuality dies when you get a chronic illness?

I really am interested in your answer. Have you ever thought about it?

(And, please, I'm not talking about abortion rights as I've said a gazillion times. I'm talking about medically appropriate health care.)
73
And what if a woman can't afford it that needed abortion? You've yet to give that answer.
74
I really am interested in your answer. Have you ever thought about it?

Yeah, I suppose I might have thought about the question once or twice during the four years I nursed my father until he died of AIDS when I was 17. But never mind all that. Please, tell me more of your views about illness and sexuality, and what sort of measures are reasonable to expect from someone who might die from sex. I want to know what you think, because you're obviously such a fucking expert.

(And, please, I'm not talking about abortion rights as I've said a gazillion times. I'm talking about medically appropriate health care.)

That phrase doesn't mean anything. Like, seriously -- nothing. So basically, you're talking about your opinion. Guess how relevant that is.
75
Actually Judah, I AM an expert. Truly and for real. And we are sexual creatures, as the man said, from the cradle to the grave.

I'm sorry about your dad. Now I understand you way better. Seriously, I do.

Imagine if your dad had access to a really great AIDS cocktail that could have saved his life, and he had finally gotten insurance to pay for it. And imagine that he had some other medical problem that threw him out of the protocol, a treatable problem, but one that had to be addressed or he couldn't get the drugs he needed. And suppose no one would give him that treatment under his new insurance, for arbitrary reasons having nothing to do with him or his illness, but just because. He could buy it, but you guys were broke from paying for all the other stuff, and it was a real hardship, meaning you (Judah) or he might do without food, or something. And you had very limited resources to tap, and limited time to tap them.....

Wouldn't you be outraged? Why are you not outraged now?
76
Actually Judah, I AM an expert. Truly and for real.

No, you're not. You might be some kind of professional, and you might even be good at your job, but you're not an expert and your tone-deaf responses to this issue and your pathetic, "now imagine..." scenario prove that, at least to my satisfaction.

My dad got sick in 1982. If you think I never had to stand by and watch the federal government say, sometimes in as many words, "Well, AIDS only kills gay men and junkies, so we're not going to spend any money providing care or trying to find a cure," you're an idiot. I understand the scenario you're describing perfectly, and I'm telling you that your moral math on the subject is self-serving and wrong. The Obama presidency is saving lives. It's repairing American relations abroad, it's getting funding for programs at home that will keep today's children from becoming tomorrow's criminals. And he's protecting the rights of women, GLBTQ people, and ethnic and religious minorities. He may not be doing it as quickly and effectively as we'd all like, but he's working on it. And undercutting that presidency because of a break in funding for a procedure to treat a preventable illness (dangerous pregnancy) for a minority of women who are in a risk category for pregnancies that falls short of a clear threat to the mother's life is a bad call. Only a small percentage of women meet those criteria, and only a small percentage of those women won't have friends or family who can loan them the money or a credit card or whatever to cover the bills and get the procedure that will save their lives. And of that tiny tiny minority, I'm reasonably confident that someone somewhere can afford to backstop for them. Maybe state government, maybe private money -- whatever. Keeping in mind through all of this that the fucking abortion isn't exactly risk-free either.

I have no illusions about Obama not being a political sell-out, but I was convinced when I voted for him in the primary, and I remain convinced, that he is as far to the left as we can get on most issues that matter. Pushing points like this one won't push Obama to the left, or get us another president who goes farther to the left. What it'll do is, it'll keep Democrats home in November 2012, and hand this county back to the people who gave us Bush. And we'll see what abortion rights look like under whoever the fuck that president turns out to be.

That's my position on this. It's a reasonably informed position based on a broad historical and political perspective. You don't agree with it? Fine. But for the love of god, stop trying to convince yourself that the only reason I don't agree with you is because I'm too thick to recognize how smart you are, and how much you know.
77
When have I ever mentioned Obama, or advocated not supporting his presidency? You're confusing me with someone else. I think this was a stupid political move and bad public policy (not to mention it'll cost more money than it will save), but that's all. My point (which you never really seemed to get) is that your "reasonably informed position based on a broad historical and political perspective" is all focused on the politics and trivializes the actual cost to the individuals. That's all. And as a clinician who works with women all day, every day, I am all about what public policy looks like at the individual level.

One thing that is continually surprising to me about the way you write is your assumption you know all about reproductive care for women when you are remarkably ill-informed. No offense or anything, but you are. For instance, in spite of what you say, abortions are actually very, very, very low-risk procedures. Compared to the statistically much more frequent and more severe complications of pregnancy and delivery, they are several orders of magnitude less risky. And you seem to know very little about how limited birth control options can be, or what a success rate for a method translates into in numbers of pregnancies even among the most consistent users. Or of the very serious complications different methods can have. And your assertion that women in these risk panels can just not have sex is.....bizarre. Truly it is. (I know you think my claiming expert status in this issue is out of line, but since I prescribe contraception, deliver babies, do abortions, and care for chronically ill women pregnant and not, including counseling them about sexual issues related to their illnesses, I'm as close to an expert as SLOG gets on this one....)

Obviously I offended you in talking about AIDS. I am sorry. I am substantially older than you --- I was in medical school when your dad got sick. That first wave was horrible. We didn't know what we were dealing with at first, and the response of the Reagan administration (which you characterize quite accurately) was despicable. (I will never, as long as I live, forget that in the middle of all that horror that idiot was trying to dismantle the CDC). I lost dear friends in that time---I have some idea of what that might have been like for you.

If you were interested in a conversation, I would talk to you about your stance on legal rights for the prison population (which I share, btw), I could point out that the constitution gives me the right to counsel, but that my access to counsel if I can't pay is a less secure right. I could then draw a parallel to abortion access, but I don't think you can have a conversation about this.

And I will sign off here. I couldn't grok something fundamental about your posts--there was something puzzling about your insistence on talking about legal rights, about refusing to see this as a public health issue. I understand you better now.

78
When have I ever mentioned Obama, or advocated not supporting his presidency?

The entry all these comments are about is about how the Obama administration did this for political reasons. Try to keep up.

Then you said:
you are remarkably ill-informed. No offense or anything, but you are. For instance, in spite of what you say, abortions are actually very, very, very low-risk procedures.

What I actually said was:
Keeping in mind through all of this that the fucking abortion isn't exactly risk-free either.

"Very very very low risk" (whatever the fuck that means) is not risk-free. Additionally, if a patient has a health condition that makes pregnancy risky, it seems to me that some of those conditions might also make an abortion riskier than it otherwise would be. Meanwhile, since you totally misquoted the thing I'm supposedly ill-informed about, please provide another example of an assertion I've made about women's health that's ill-informed. Oh wait, you can't, because you're "signing off".

And you seem to know very little about how limited birth control options can be, or what a success rate for a method translates into in numbers of pregnancies even among the most consistent users. Or of the very serious complications different methods can have.

You have no basis for any of those claims. None. I didn't quote any numbers about the effectiveness of any method of birth control, nor have I posted anything claiming to be an exhaustive list of available methods, nor have I made claims or denials about complications that may result from using a certain method or methods of birth control.

And your assertion that women in these risk panels can just not have sex is.....bizarre. Truly it is.

Again, not an iota of supporting anything on your assertion. Just your special magical status as an expert. Of course, I've seen plenty of people take significant breaks from sex -- sometimes for years at a time -- when they or their partners became HIV+. But never mind all that. Some educated idiot on the internet told me that nobody can ever stop having sex, so I must have imagined it.

I know you think my claiming expert status in this issue is out of line, but since I... close to an expert as SLOG gets on this one.

None of that makes you an expert on human sexuality. It makes you a qualified expert on certain aspects of human sexual biology. There's a difference, and the difference is significant to this discussion.

And as a clinician who works with women all day, every day, I am all about what public policy looks like at the individual level.

Uh-huh. Boy, that sounds vaguely familiar... oh wait. There it is. Waaaaay back up at @54 where I said you couldn't see the forest for the trees, that you weren't arguing the point, you were arguing the issue, and there was no point in getting into this with you. You sure proved me wrong on that one.

I lost dear friends in that time---I have some idea of what that might have been like for you.

No, I'm reasonably confident that you don't. But keep asserting that you do. That's really working for me.

I couldn't grok something fundamental about your posts--there was something puzzling about your insistence on talking about legal rights, about refusing to see this as a public health issue. I understand you better now.

Jesus wept.
79
Hey attitude devant, if you're still around, I'd like to ask you a question. It's somewhat off topic, but I wonder. Is there any good reason for birth control pills to require a prescription (and a costly and hassle-some OBGYN visit?) I think having them behind the pharmacy counter would increase ease and compliance. Current guidelines only suggest cancer testing for every third year now, so why the the annual pelvic exam?
80
Is this impacted if Jim McDermott's amendment to allow single payer national health plans goes through?
81
Obama is a lying scumbag!! He needs to be impeached asap!
82
i am BECKY from LONDON i want to say hallelujah to lord for using Dr Odogbe of Anoitedtemple@gmail.com to bless my womb, i have been married for the past 10year without a child i have look for all kind of help that can make me get pregnant but nothing works, but through an insight i came across Dr Odogbe profile at the internet when i was searching for help on how i can get a baby, Quickly i contacted him to help me out, he said he will cast a spell that will make me sleep with my partner and get pregnant so he said he need to buy some of the other items he will use in casting the spell from the market that he want me to send him the money he will use in buying the items so i gave him the money and he cast the spell for me and ask me to go and lie with my partner so i did to my greatest surprise i became pregnant after that week so with so much joy in my heart i want to share this out to everyone in need that that i have found favor in the hands of Dr Odogbe of Anoitedtemple@gmail.com

Becky From London
83
Hello my is NICOLAS NAYLA i want to share my testimony on how i married for the pass 10yrs without even conceiving a baby and i have done all the medical check up and the doctors said am okay yet i was still unable to conceive until one faithful day i was on the internet doing some research and i saw a testimony share by someone on how a man call Dr. ALEKA help her to get conceive a baby after casting a pregnancy spell for her and i have no option than to also contact this man on this same email which is supernaturalsolutioncenter@gmail.com and to my greatest surprise after he has cast the spell for me and he told me to have sex with my husband and i did as he instructed me and to God be the glory at the end of the month i miss my period and i want for hospital for check up again and the doctor said am two weeks pregnant and i was so surprise and all this all came through with the help of Dr ALEKA once again contact him supernaturalsolutioncenter@gmail.com or you can also him on his website http://supernaturalsolutioncental.webs.c… for your help because he just save my marriage and i know many of you are out there with the same problem don't hesitate to contact him now.
84
I am Victoria Glen from USA i want to say hallelujah to lord for using Mama Alisha Lura of getyourexbacksolutionspell@gmail.com to bless my womb, i have been married for the past 10year without a child i have look for all kind of help that can make me get pregnant but nothing works, but through an insight i came across Mama Alisha Lura profile at the internet when i was searching for help on how i can get a baby, Quickly i contacted him to help me out, he said he will cast a spell that will make me sleep with my partner and get pregnant so he said he need to buy some of the other items he will use in casting the spell from the market that he want me to send him the money he will use in buying the items so i gave him the money and he cast the spell for me and ask me to go and lie with my partner so i did to my greatest surprise i became pregnant after that week so with so much joy in my heart i want to share this out to everyone in need that i have found favor in the hands of Mama Alisha Lura of getyourexbacksolutionspell@gmail.com, contact her now to via email : getyourexbacksolutionspell@gmail.com or you can visit her website on http://weeblyalishaluraspell.weebly.com/… call her on +2348115435381
85

AN Amazing Testimony On A Spell Caster Who help me to get pregnant, So me and my partner have been trying for a baby for the last 5 years now and we have had no luck. I don't have a regular cycle so it is hard for me to tell when I'm ovulating or not, but we always have sex at least 2 times a week, sometimes more. I know it can take up to a year to conceive but everyone i know who have had a baby have conceived within 2-3months of trying and it is really getting to me. my partner had a fertility test about a year ago and his sperm were fine. I'm thinking it could be a problem with me but I've never had any symptoms of any problems. My partner does smoke and have the occasional drink, and i used to smoke and also have the occasional drink. i know i'm slightly overweight but that shouldn't affect our chances too much,one faithful day my friend told me to contact a spell caster that help her aunty, then i contact the man on this email: Drossuva@gmail.com, if you are out there passing through any of this problems listed below:

(1) If you want your ex back.
(2) if you always have bad dreams.
(3) You want to be promoted in your office.
(4) You want women/men to run after you.
(5) do you want to be pregnant.
(6) You want to be rich.
(7) You want to tie your husband/wife to be yours forever.
(8) If you need financial assistance.
(9)Stop Divorce
(10) Hiv Cure

Email: Drossuva@gmail.com
86
BE CAREFUL HERE NOBODY CAN HELP YOU HERE OR EVEN SUGGEST HOW YOU CAN GET YOUR EX OR LOVE BACK,ANY TESTIMONIES OF MOST SPELL CASTER HERE MUST BE IGNORE.BECAUSE MOST OF THEM ARE SCAM I MEAN REAL SCAM WHICH I WAS A VICTIM AND I GOT RIPPED OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS BECAUSE I WAS SO ANXIOUS TO GET MY WIFE BACK AFTER SHE LEFT ME FOR OVER 2 YEARS WITH MY 7 YEARS OLD SON JERRY,I HAVE APPLIED TO 7 DIFFERENT SPELL CASTER HERE AND ALL TO NO AVAIL THEY ALL ASK FOR SAME THING SEND YOUR NAME YOUR EX NAME ADDRESS AND PICTURE PHONE NUMBER ETC WHICH I DID OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND MOST OF THEM WERE FROM WEST AFRICA UNTIL I SAW A POST ABOUT DR VOVOLA SPELL AND I DECIDED TO GAVE HER MY LAST TRAIL.SHE ASK ME FOUR THINGS MY REAL NAME,MY EX AND MY EX MOTHER NAME AND $180 AND SAID MY EX WILL COME BACK IN 24HOURS, I HAVE PAID OVER $3000 ON SPELL CASTING AND COURIER AND NOTHING HAVE WORK FOR ME AFTER 3 DAYS I WAS THINKING ABOUT HOW MUCH I HAVE LOST SO FAR SO I SAID LET ME GIVE HER A TRY SO I CALLED HER AGAIN AND SEND MY REAL NAME,MY EX AND MY EX MOTHER NAME AND THE $180 BECAUSE I SWEAR IT WAS MY LAST TRY SO I WAS WAITING AS SHE TOLD ME TO WAIT TILL NEXT DAY AND I COULD NOT SLEEP THAT NIGHT BECAUSE I REALLY LOVE MY WIFE AND WANT HER BACK AT 9PM THAT DAY I SAW MY WIFE ON LINE ON FACE BOOK AND SHE SAID HI AT FIRST I WAS SHOCK BECAUSE SHE NEVER TALK WITH ME FOR THE PAST A YEAR AND 9 MONTH NOW I DID NOT REPLY AGAIN SHE SAID ARE YOU THERE? I QUICKLY REPLY YES AND SHE SAID CAN WE SEE TOMORROW I SAID YES AND SHE WENT OFF-LINE I WAS CONFUSED I TRY TO CHAT HER AGAIN BUT SHE WAS NO MORE ON LINE I COULD NOT SLEEP THAT NIGHT AS I WAS WONDERING WHAT SHE IS GOING TO SAY, BY 7.AM THE NEXT MORNING SHE GAVE ME A MISS CALL I DECIDED NOT TO CALL BACK AS I WAS STILL ON SHOCK AGAIN SHE CALL AND I PICK SHE SAID CAN WE SEE AFTER WORK TODAY I SAID YES SO SHE END THE CALL IMMEDIATELY I GOT OFF WORK SHE CALL ME AND WE MEET AND NOW WE ARE BACK AGAIN I CALL DR VOVOLA THE NEXT DAY THANKING HER FOR WHAT SHE HAS DONE IN FACT I STILL CALL HER AND THANK HER AS MY LIFE WAS NOT COMPLETE WITHOUT MY WIFE PLEASE BE CAREFUL HERE I HAVE BEEN SCAM THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS IF YOU WANT A TRUE LOVE SPELL THEN CONTACT DR VOVOLA ( vovolaspellcast@yahoo.com ) or website: http://vovolaspellcast-com.webs.com/
87
I have good news to share with the world today, i made a vow to my self that i will tell the world about PRIEST ONOME after he helped me with his spell that made my wife and i settled our difference. We where both married for years without issue, we visited different hospitals but nor could help us. i loved my wife so much and never intended to drive her out for a second woman. One day as we where both deliberating on how to solve our bareness we got a news from a radio station that PRIEST ONOME can put a stop to all problem with his spell so we called his mobile number and then emailed him for a solution and after all was done i and very glade to announce to the world that my wife had a set of twine 9 month later. Do you have problem of any kind and you think all hope is lost then you have a chance to met PRIEST ONOME today for help his email is: (priestonomeherbaltemple@outlook.com)

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