It took me so long to figure out who you were talking about and why! I am so out of the loop, I fear.

Man, and I had thought when seeing pictures of these people at pride parades that they really WERE remorseful at the bigoted things that religion has done to the gay community over the years.

If I were gay and had invested myself emotionally into Marin's line of bullshit, I would feel infinitely more betrayed.

fuck these christian douchebags.

they had us fooled for a moment there.

maybe we should just quit paying attention to them...

I'm in no way defending these individuals.

Sometime the right approach is hanging in there with someone (or an organization) that you disagree with (and even loath), because you can see that burning a bridge will bring too much suffering down the road. That is how it works for me, and my family, we endure a denomination and a pastoral leadership team that we disagree with for one 15 year old who has outed herself to us and is terrified to tell her pastoral team parents. Walking or burning a bridge means we loose the ability to counter the "love the sinner and hate the sin", and we risk loosing our ability to be a safe home for her to come to. So, being associated with something that we disagree (too mild of a word) is a very small price to pay that is easily, willingly, paid.

Again, I'm not defending these individuals, just pointing out that "Fuck Off" is not always the wisest choice.

They can fuck off! Religion always was, is and will be a big fucking lie. They can frost their hate with pretty pink frosting but it's still bullshit cake.

Thank you, kim.

@5 That is a good thing you're doing, Kim. Thank you for choosing the high road and sacrificing comfort to really help another human being in need. I know what it's like to stay in that culture for the sake of trying to help and change a few minds for the better...I don't know how you do it, I gave up a long time ago.

Guess you have to ask yourself: Do you love the person you're trying to help more than you hate the org?

My mother laments the fact she never took my sister or I to church, so we don't believe in Jesus. I, for one, am thankful that I picked up Dan Savage at the tender age of 12 instead of a Bible. I don't always agree with him, but at least he taught me to accept myself for who I am without shame...hell, I'm not even gay. I just have some kinks it took awhile to recognize. I can't even imagine how these people feel, unable to accept themselves, while others profit off their misery.

I now feel very bad about that cute gay boy in his underwear who hugged those fucks at pride.

My take: I know Marin likely disapproves of what evangelicals like to call the "homosexual lifestyle." I doubt he'd support same-sex marriage, the repeal of DADT or anything else of substance on the agenda.

But here's the thing. Social conservatives aren't going away. Evangelicals aren't going to disappear, much as we might like them to. Which means that we are always going to have people out there who disagree with us.

So the question is, is it more constructive to scream invective at each other or is it better to try to build at least a polite basis that allows us not just to disagree but also to understand the other's position a bit better than "Christians are haters" and "Homos are the devil?"

That's the kind of Rovian black-and-white thinking that I refuse to subscribe to.

It also makes me suspect that certain writers who benefit from whipping up this kind of culture war on both sides just might have a teeny tiny ulterior motive in its persistence (and here I'll note that Marin has taken at least as much flack from his coreligionists as from us).

Marin probably won't repudiate his church's stand on homosexuality. But at least he recognizes that, in the process of enunciating that stand, his church has frequently done more harm than good on an individual basis by its own standards.

That's a massive step forward and it should be recognized.

Furthermore, anything that allows evangelicals and LGBT folks to discuss issues in a less-politically charged atmosphere is a real opportunity to win people over to our point of view.

Marin recognizes this: he wants to proselytize to us. But the benefit to us is that it gives us a chance to proselytize to evangelicals, and perhaps start winning them over to our understanding of civil rights for all. Remember, knowing an real, out gay person is the biggest predictor of whether or not you support gay rights.

This is a massive opportunity that should not be wasted just because Marin doesn't necessarily buy into our political agenda or denounce the evangelicals we'd like him to.

gus and Hernandez,

Love is greater; it motivates, sustains, energizes, equips, and achieves better than hate.

Thank you for your kind words.

@13

Corydon:

"But here's the thing. Social conservatives aren't going away. Evangelicals aren't going to disappear, much as we might like them to. Which means that we are always going to have people out there who disagree with us."

"...is it better to try to build at least a polite basis that allows us not just to disagree but also to understand the other's position a bit better than "Christians are haters" and "Homos are the devil?""

Let me just fiddle with that:

"But here's the thing. Racists aren't going away. Bigots aren't going to disappear, much as we might like them to. Which means that we are always going to have people out there who disagree with us."

"...is it better to try to build at least a polite basis that allows us not just to disagree but also to understand the other's position a bit better than "Racists are haters" and "Negros are the devil?""

Yeah, can't we all just get along? After all, historically, people have never stopped believing things. We still believe in Thor, and alchemy, and the four humors.

I understand their position, Corydon. They say that we're going to burn in hell for not being like them, and that we deserve it. If a person says that you deserve to be dragged by a chain attached to a truck until you're dead, it's not necessary to say "I hear you, and that's a perfectly valid point of view, but I would ask you to consider blah blah blah...."

Of course, if he has an unorthodox position, then what I've said doesn't apply.