Being a follower of Christ is, above all things, a recognition that we are imperfect, fallible and in desperate need of a savior.
"As someone who loves the Lord and does not support gay marriage..."
"We cannot believe that we are better or more worthy than other people."
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How about looking in a mirror and taking responsibility for your own actions.
as a black gay person of faith..i have personally encountered and known people who feel otherwise and for that that reason alone..and by evangelicals and fundamnetalists who seek to advance their agenda of soul winning and saving. i've been victimized by shame and condemnation from evangelicals, personally and sexually abused by clergy, despised by people who 'love the sinner and hate the sin '.that i've managed to maintain and exercise my own faith is fairly miraculous considering this. on this one point ( the subject of this post) i think that if fellow christians can not step forward and advocate the rights of these kids, and adult people like them.. these people they claim to love even while they disagree with them.. then i will continue to join the chorus of dan and others who say fuck your feelings...suck it up listen, learn, and do better.
yours ( sincerely ) in christ,
I think I've commented here enough that you know I am a follower of Christ (I almost hate to use the term "Christian" anymore because of the connotation it has gained). I support same sex marriage, and I abhor discrimination, violence, and bullying in whatever form it takes.
I don't understand how people who read the same book I read can reach very different conclusions than the ones I reach. In the Gospels, neither the writers, nor Jesus, nor any of the other characters make any mention of homosexuality. Granted, there are several mentions in the writings attributed to Paul and Timothy, but some of those writings also espouse women keeping their heads covered when they worship and celibacy. Very few groups follow those commands, yet they insist that the language about homosexuality be obeyed to the letter.
The way I figure it, the God I know, the God who is infinitely loving, who gives second chances whenever I screw up (and God knows I screw up a lot), who insipires me to want to live my life in love for everyone, isn't going to deny someone the chance to find a partner, to find the love of their life, and spend many happy years together. The God of Love isn't going to say that love is meant for everyone but 10% or so of the population.
So, I'll go on believing in God, because I can't not believe. I'll go on trying to be welcoming to everyone, trying to love everyone. And I'll go on speaking out when others who call themselves Christians say hateful things about "the other," whether that means people of a differnet race, creed, ethnicity, or sexual orientation. That's What Jesus Would Do (to paraphrase every piece of religious kitsch made in the 90's.).
P.S. Matthew Morrison says he uses Lubriderm for hair product. I am not lying.
LR, kill yourself.
And premarital sex.
And having children outside marriage.
All peachy keen.
Despite the FACT that all carry high social costs.
Broken lives and unfulfilled dreams.
Dan desperately wants to believe that if everyone would just embrace
the deviancy and perversion like he does
it would make all the bad effects go away.
no more AIDS.
no more suicide.
no more homosexual domestic abuse.
no more ChickenHawks exploiting young boys.
Or rather, Gommorah.
In Dan's world people who refuse to embrace
irresponsible dangerous sexual behavior are BIGOTS.
THEY are the problem.
What is the suicide rate among homosexual adult men in homofriendly San Francisco?
The AIDS rate?
If all the "Christians" in the world disappeared tomorrow your world would be the same.
Homosexuality would still be a soul sucking emotional dead end.
STDs, old familiar ones and yet to be discovered terrors you can't imagine,
still an inescapable omnipresent fact of homosexual life.
Emotional and medical suffering are the INEVITABLE consequences of deviant behavior.
Actually, your world wouldn't be quite the same if Christians disappeared-
you would either have to face the truth or find a new scapegoat.
It is so much easier to blame Someone Else.
Faith doesn't get a pass. "It's my religion" doesn't justify bigotry.
A person's professed faith tells me definite things about their beliefs and world-view, whereas race, etc. don't. They're not the same thing.
oh and fuck you too..
yours in christ,
"What oft was thought but ne'er so well expressed"
...Oh, but wait, weren't you all calling for Dan Savage to be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for his video project? Riiiight.... A man of peace. Suuuuuch peace.
this isn't a debate about marriage . it's a conversation arising from the fact that people are dying, children mostly, from hatred and abuse.
stay on topic fucker.
That response didn't sound hateful to me, aside from the "Fuck your feelings" part. Is he not allowed to explain to the woman (man? - it's so hard to tell with Christians) how she is setting a bad example for her children, and the consequences therein?
Not taking pleasure in someone's death or discrimination does not mean that your very belief systems and actions didn't participate in the culture that caused it. Should you choose to believe that being gay is a sin and that gay marriage is disturbing the sacrosanct institution of heterosexual marriage, then don't engage in it. But don't fool yourself into believing that your way is the only way, and then interfere with how others are living their life. It is unfortunate that those with the loudest voices, are also the ones who want to interfere with everyone unlike them the most. The Christian agenda is loud and clear - and currently, it's driving teenage children to suicide. This isn't just about bullying, it is about the entire dialogue we surround our youth with. And to make anyone feel unwanted, unloved, and unnecessary just for being who they are is a crime in itself. What would Jesus do with this situation? Not this.
What I appreciate is that for many folks here, rights of gays and lesbians are important BECAUSE of their religious beliefs and not despite them. There's no real reason why Catholicism at large can't be like the Jesuits. Except maybe for that Pope guy. No wonder after 6 years working here and appreciating the mission and values of the school, I still haven't come close to going back to mass.
L.R. You do not get to work to deny people the same civil rights that you enjoy and then whine when those same people and their supporters tell you how much that hurts and how destructive.
Lest you think I'm a hypocrite, I am similarly intolerant of those who would deny civil rights to women, people of color and so on.
Finally, that you would undertake the work of oppression in Jesus name makes you all the more pathetic in my eyes. Did that hurt your feelings? Too damn bad.
http://www.pacerteensagainstbullying.org… and http://www.tolerance.org/activity/bullyi… are great places to start.
Both sides? We're just defending ourselves. If Christians embraced gays and lesbians as a legitimate part of the human family, this discussion would be over.
Is that sarcasm?
I hope you're feeling better after this Dan. I'm not even sick and I feel better. And FYI, there isn't so much as a hint of anything super extra sucky about this.
Now see, that, right there, is a lie.
And, how exactly is Dan hypocritical?
I don't know how many more of these suicides I can take. The anger I hold that everyone isn't fucking screaming in the streets about this makes my chest hurt. It's like a horror show that people don't even recognize.
So we should look to religion for help with our sexual crises?
The Catholic Church and a number of other Christian organizations are actively campaigning against condom use in Africa. Are actively trying to keep comprehensive sex education out of American schools. Are Actively trying to criminalize miscarriages. Some were even actively pushing a bill that would condemn homosexuals to death in Uganda (I'm talking about American Christians).
Dan argues for sexual honesty (to others and to yourself), and being safe and mature, so that people have healthier, more satisfactory (sex) lives, rather than restricting your sexuality with outdated and, frankly, useless social stigmas that do nothing but make people feel guilty for doing the things that should make them feel ecstatic.
You are living in a dream world, a shitty one. And I don't envy you for it. But stop spreading your misery and repression around, because you're not saving anyone with it.
Tragically another gay youth has taken his life: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/01…
Ahem. And, um, well-written post, Mr. Savage. Carry on.
"Oh what a sweet girl you are. Too bad you're going to burn in hell for all eternity because you are an unrepentant sinner who commits acts against god and is worthless to society, but I love you anyway. Want a cookie?"
All of us homos, or at least the very great vast majority of us, are products of heterosexual partnerships. I'm going to go out on a limb and say not just partnerships, but marriages. I was. I had a mom and a dad, married in a church wedding many years before I was born. I was raised in a very religious family - church every week, youth group, retreats, VBS. So for me your shtick of "I love the Lord but am against gay marriage" falls really fucking flat. You know why? Because my parents, and my many religious family members, also love the Lord - but they are fully supportive of civil marriage rights for gay couples - including my and my husband's marriage. I feel very, very fortunate to be surrounded by family that support me without the qualifications or judgment that you apparently have.
BTW your 'love the sinner hate the sin' thing is really, really tired. We've heard it all before, and I'm gonna guess that many of us are here to tell you take that and well, shove it. Too many 'followers of Christ' are out there abusing gay people because of their faith. If you have the guts, stand up to your Christian brethren. Abandon your prejudice, and live like Christ would have - have the courage to stick up for those who can't defend themselves, without your duplicitous cowardice. Kids are dying - if you're really a Christian, put the suffering ahead of yourself and try to do something about it. That's what I was taught at church.
I have been told I am going to hell by the very priests of the Catholic Church I belonged to, in confession about my rape, and my confessions of my orientation. I have seen one courageous priest help me and then leave the priesthood out of despair.
Think of the bigotry, the hate, and the misery we are put through by "well meaning" and God fearing christians.
I grew up, I lived...and living well is the best revenge. But, damn you and your ilk for setting a shitty example, for using the message of faith in an evil, twisted way. Fuck the Fred Phelpses of this world. the Jim Dobsons; fuck them slowly with a chainsaw.
Get on your knees and beg for forgiveness from your lord and saviour, because I will be damned if I forgive any of you sick fucks for the sheer hell you put gays and lesbians through.
After all of the suicides of gay kids, I am not in a particularly forgiving or favorable mood.
I've been reading your columns for years for precisely this reason. It's not our job, as GLBT people, to mollycoddle and try to couch the truth of how shitty it is to be GLBT youth in unhurtful terms. If your (oppressive, majority) faith produces hateful bigots that drive children to suicide, it's YOUR FUCKING PROBLEM, not mine. It's not the job of the oppressed party to EVER try to explain or be nice about their oppression. Fuck 'em if the truth hurts. It's still the fuckin' truth.
Fuck tolerance. The reason we have the situation we are in is that we liberals suck the idea of "tolerance" with our mothers' organic breastmilk. Tolerance is bullshit.
You know what I have no tolerance for? Hatred of others based soley on who they choose to love. I don't tolerate assholes who tell kids they will burn in hell if they touch themselves. I don't tolerate dirty old men with hate themselves and everyone else so much that the only way they can get off is buttfucking helpless little boys. I have even less tolerance when those same motherfuckers oppose the distribution of condoms that will save tens of thousands of lives.
What else? I don't tolerate it when self-important, entitled little fucks, pumped up with self esteem by their hateful "christian" helicopter parents, drive confused, sad, sensitive kids to kill themselves by demeaning them, hitting them, spitting on them, spying on them, raping them and perpetrating thousands of other cruelties day in day out. The stupidest thing I have heard said is that "These situations are a tragedy for everyone involved." Fuck that shit. These situations are a tragedy for the victims. The perpetrators are a waste of air.
"If your message is that we should not judge people based on their sexual preferance, how do you justify judging entire groups of people for any other reason (including their faith)?"
In other words, if we should not judge based on sexual preference, we shouldn't judge based on ANYTHING? How stupid is that? Using your logic, we shouldn't judge rapists, or murdererers, or drunk drivers, or war profiteers, or people who sneak videos of their roommates having sex and post them on the Internet, harshly. Idiot, not all criteria are equal. Unless you think that homosexuality is indistinguishable in its level of evil from genocide, which is also indistinguishable from killing someone while driving drunk, which is also indistinguishable from driving cold sober? Honestly, how many brain cells does it take to work that out?
Homosexuals harm noone. (No, not even themselves.) Your attitude and legislative activities harm homosexuals. You, with your "someone who loves the Lord and does not support gay marriage," you are allying yourself with that harm. YOU ARE DOING THE GREATER HARM. That's why you get the harsher judgement.
"We cannot believe that we are better or more worthy than other people."
In that case "we" cannot believe that our love is somehow better or more worthy than the love that someone else experiences, and therefore you have no justification for claiming that your marriage is more worthy of the recognition afforded by the covenant of marriage than gay marriage is. You cannot claim to be all sinners fallen together, and then expect to be able to have privileges that you then systematically deny to others who are down in the same trench with you. You can't have it both ways.
Finally, your No True Scotsman fallacy is duly noted. Go look it up. Then kick yourself good and hard for using it so witlessly, start actually denouncing the people who do all the things you deplore while still daring to call themselves Christians, and resolve to be a better critical thinker in future.
You, Sir, are truly a fierce advocate worthy of the title. God bless you.
What is important is that gays are being denied LEGAL rights enjoyed by the rest of the citizenry, despite being ostensibly citizens on the same level with everyone else. If the Letter Writer does not support gay marriage, then he(she?) is lending support to a state of second-class citizenship. Yes, it really is that simple.
Rest in Peace kiddo.
Two people with matching DNA may legally marry in every state as of this minute. Why should some poor overworked jaded shlub of a clerk have to care what's in the pants of ANY couple who come for a license?
And, repeated: draft the straight kids to stop bullying in favor of sticking it to the Man. Sit-ins R fun.
Let me say I told you so, already. And sit up straight or your face will freeze that way.
You can't call someone "wrong," call them a "sinner" and call an inextricable part of what they are "vile" or "deviant" and damn them to eternal torment and then pretend to be sad when they die. It doesn't add up. We're social creatures, and people die when they're vilified and ostracized, and you are vilifying and ostracizing them. Fuck you.
Right fucking on, Dan.
weapons, and hate speech can kill. So, let us refer to it as what it really is. Murder. Robin Tyler
I say "we" because this whole business doesn't have anything to do with gay or straight. There's no difference, really. Those poor dead boys aren't just sad news for the gays, they're a loss for all of us, and these freaks who think they have "feelings" that mean something in the face of this little blast of hate we're weathering are losing too.
L. R. needs to check herself, there's not a shred of Christ in there.
Thanks for all that you do.
Cry me a river.
Then drown in it.
Love and kisses,
LR tries to play the victim & accuses Dan of being some big, scary, hate-monger. Yes, it is true that there are Christians who accept & support GLBT. But they're a drop in the bucket and are too busy turning the other cheek & humbly accepting their lot to do anything substantial. Waiting for the Christians to stop their hatemongering brethren is like waiting for America to rejoin Britain: It ain't gonna happen.
Dan's response is the proper one for people who try to play the victim and manipulate out of weakness: Fuck You. It hurts your feelings? Sucks to be you, then.
is later followed by the statement,
So, civil rights like the right to marry don't count, as far as this not believing you're better or more worthy than others? Because those two mindsets seem in direct opposition to one another to me. But maybe I'm a bit biased, what with coming from a religious background and doing away with Christianity after realizing how inherently hypocritical, hateful, misogynistic, outdated, and ridiculous it all was.
That was so thoroughly beautiful, I almost came...
If you want to know what Christ saw as his "above all" read the Sermon on the Mount. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That's the heart of the Gospel. All the rest is BS you learned in church. As Woody Allen once said: "If Jesus came back and saw what was going on his name, he'd never stop throwing up."
That said, there are thoughtful, intelligent Christians who get it right. I actually had a very good experience with the Christian Church, Disciples of Christ, growing up, although I don't belong to any church today. The Disciples were and are committed to diversity in all ways, and even in the 70s and 80s were gay and lesbian-inclusive. I had positive and affirming relationships as a teen with gay and lesbian pastors whose goal was not to cure me, but to, as with anyone, help ease my way in this world, teach me empathy, and affirm my humanity with love and friendship.
This was in Speedway, Indiana, by the way.
That community of acceptance got me through my awkward and turbulent teens relatively unscathed.
I agree with Dan's focus on the Christianist haters. They deserve to be called out. But here's a shout-out to the good people at Speedway Christian who embraced me as a whole person in my youth and affirmed that person wholly with love, kindness, and acceptance, and, above all, taught me to do unto others as I would have them do unto me.
Yes, call out the hates for their stuff. But please don't paint all people of faith with that same brush. Thanks for the good work. Love the video project!