A Christian is feeling persecuted?

Knock me over w/ a feather.

I hope he does call the ACLU, because I am sure they will laugh in his face.

36 years old and he still hasn't learned how to spell? Forget about this one, he's a doofus.

This trend of the overwhelming majority (Christians) acting like they're a persecuted minority is a dangerous one. The Germans were supposedly "under attack" by the Jews at one point in time, too.

Still, these letters from butthurt Christians are a good sign that we're getting through. Not every one of these guys will come over to our side (more likely if we're still confrontational) but a lot of them are being challenged to reconcile Jesus' love with Christianity's hate, and love will win out for many of these Christians.

We are winning.

If that hurt your feelings, how's this? You are a brainwashed little twit who believes alot of nonsense and it was time you woke up from your fantasy world.

Tell you what George, why don't you go ahead and ask the gay members of your congregation, especially the gay teens, if they feel like churches bully them.

What's that? There aren't any gays in your congregation? Odd, because gays are a certain percentage of the population. Ah, it's probably that they aren't open about their "inclination" in the church. Now why would that be, given that you've hotly stated that they are treated lovingly without bullying? It can't possibly be that gay teens in your congregation hide their sexuality for fear of rejection, of being told they chose to be that way and it's a sin and they should change something they cannot, now can it? It can't be that gay adults run away from your congregation because they, *gasp* feel unwelcome?

Weak trolls are weak. George S' spelling and grammar makes my brain hurt, but his sad protestations induce laughter.

a particular cartoon comes to mind:

http://indiana.bilerico.com/2009/01/indi…

George has so many reasons to be on his knees thanking Dan. For starters:
1. For giving him something to feel persecuted about. Religious types love to feel persecuted. They can't get enough of it. It's how they know they're righteous.
2. Gay marriage hastens the rapture. The more sinful the world is, the sooner Jesus will teleport the righteous to heaven.

I lolled.

What a cry-baby. Please, George, go to the ACLU - an organization you probably dispise most of the time - so that they can tell you that speaking the truth isn't "Hate Speech".

You want some Hate Speech? How about this: Christians are all fucking idiots and should be forcibly be 'deprogrammed' so that they see the truth and learn that there is no fucking God. Jesus was a gay Jew who died 2,000 years ago and was not the 'son of god' and Paul is the equavlent of Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard in that he made up his own stupid religon as a scam. Ooops, still protected speech, damnit.

Sorry - I guess I'm just no good at the "Hate Speech" thing.

Good stuff, Indy :)

George, may I introduce you to PZ Myers? He'll explain your fallacies to you.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/

I can only hope your bible study goes better than your study of the Constitution, George.

You say the only out gay person you know about in your church (the organist) left. I'll assume there aren't any other out gay people in your congregation. If so, then it is obvious that even if there is no glaring anti-gay sermons, your church is nevertheless an unwelcoming place for gay people. Your church may not actively preach hate from the pulpit, but it passively exudes an unwelcome atmosphere.

Fact: There are gay kids in your congregation. If your church makes them feel unwelcome, unloved, and unworthy, then your church is contributing to the suicidal thoughts they are having. If they kill themselves, your church is partly to blame.

If that hurts your feelings, too bad.

They don't care what "you people" do, as long as you do it far away from them. If you come out as gay, or even just with an "inclination", you get a nice hug, but you have to go away and not come back. Some acceptance. George is dumb.

While I certainly don't agree with much of what this writer says, I can say that I went to a smalltown church in the midwest, and I don't recall ever being preached to about the evils of homosexuality, and I think it's probably accurate that most churches do not bring it up. But certainly the condemnation of gays is almost always attributed to what the bible says, and there are preachers who are very vocal, and activist in ensuring no advancements of gay acceptance. The fact that the organist left makes it clear this church has a DADT policy, which is why they hugged and said goodbye, and any gay kid would get the message: You are welcome until the day you come out, and then you are no longer an acceptable human being to worship beside the rest of us, who BTW are all sinners too. Gay is just the unacceptale sin. It results in shunning. It would not have, at the church I attended. I don't think.

I think you should ask George what the pastor would have said, and what the rest of the congregants would have said, if the organist in question had said instead "I'm gay, gay, gay, but I'm planning on staying here in the church and playing the organ every Sunday, is that cool?" If he's still sat there three, four, five weeks from now, what are people going to say to him? If he further says "there's no contradiction at all between being Christian and being gay", what would you say then, George? Are you SURE you'd still be so understanding?

Cause I'm thinking not.

Hey, George if this type of speech concerns you then you have the option of not reading it or writing another letter in protest. What you do not have is the ability to stop this sort of speech or make anyone pay consequences for such speech. In fact blasphemy is not against the law and it is not illegal for someone to hurt your feelings. Religion does not occupy some special place that requires people to watch what we say. In fact we can mock your beliefs and your deity at will and with legal impunity. Frankly your feelings don't amount to a hill of beans compared to the vile hate spewed by bigoted pastors who spread their biblical blather every Sunday and the damage they inflict on gay youth.

So...if he's going to a "Bible Church", he's probably going to an independent nondenominational evangelical church descended from the anabaptist/mennonite tradition. In this tradition it's actually quite possible that he hasn't heard any anti-gay sermons, and any anti-gay content that he's heard is probably very light on the hellfire. They're not so interested in talking about hell, or using fear of hell as a motivator.

Obviously he's an idiot to think this is enough to exempt his church from criticism. But his biggest mistake (aside from his trouble with apostrophes and ignorance of constitutional law and idiotic belief that opposition to homosexuality isn't an violence by definition), is that he's universalizing his personal experience with Christianity and assuming that what he's seen is how it is pretty much everywhere. "Bible Colleges" make this problem even worse.

And yet secular folks are often plagued with the same issue--the illusion that Christianity is a monolithic entity. This has never been the case, and will never be the case.

If both the religious and the non-religious would cultivate more religious literacy, we'd probably be much further along in achieving progressive change.

Hey everyone, watch this awesome informative PBS miniseries http://www.pbs.org/godinamerica/

Hate speech is protected by the First Amendment.

Dan's comments are accurate -- I don't consider them hate speech -- and protected by the Constitution. Hate speech coming from churches is also protected (although we have the right to point out that it's factually and morally wrong.)

I do look forward to the day when open displays of anti-gay bigotry are considered social and professional suicide, just like anti-black and anti-Jewish bigotry are nowadays. It doesn't mean there are no racists, but more and more racists are staying in the closet, where they belong. Similarly, homophobes can be as homophobic as they like in the privacy of their own homes, I just don't want them to shove their perverted and hate-filled lifestyle in my face. And I don't like they idea that children might get the idea that homophobia and hate is a valid and acceptable lifestyle choice.

George S.

I'm glad to hear that you have never had to endure one of those sermons. I wish I could say the same. I can't though. I've endured those sermons. Actually, I take that back. I am glad to have been exposed to it, because it was part of the shake down I needed to knock the scales from my eyes. I needed to get off the fence. I needed to see that bullies do come dressed as pastors. Those sermons, they do happen in Portland, Oregon.

@25 - I went to a church in the midwest for a short period of time. At one point during church announcements, the member giving announcements that day introduced himself: "Hi. I'm Elton. Kind of like Elton John, minus the lifestyle."

The church cheered at his joke. I never went back.

I could hardly get past the first sentence: "the psychological effects are almost overwhelming."

Sheesh, what a drama queen.

You know what George, you are right. You deserve an apology.

I apologize for having attended church alongside people just like you for years without challenging their views on homosexuality.

I apologize for every time I bit my tongue when someone like you said "those people" when referring to *any* other group, and said nothing.

I apologize never challenging the 3rd-grade biblical literalist theological understanding of the majority of the Christians around me.

I apologize for thinking that just because no one preached bigotry from the pulpit, *my* church was welcoming to everyone, without paying attention to the intolerance around me.

Maybe if people like me had not been so determined to avoid conflict and discomfort at Church, people like you would not be so oblivious you'd believe that the situation you describe at your church is at all healthy or acceptable.

I'm very, VERY sorry about that, and promise to never, ever just sit back quietly again.

Remember that four step sequence "first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win? I guess we missed a possible stage - "then they whine a lot".

@28: I agree that secularists too can fall into the trap of seeing religious groups as monolithic. And I believe it's in our best interest if everyone had to take a world religions class in school, just for some baseline knowledge since religions influence so much human behavior around the world. I'm definitely glad there are informed progressive like you out there, Kevin. But at some point you realize all religions are made up bullshit, and it makes just as much sense to study the mythology of Tolkien as it does that of the trillion different denominations of Christianity. Any belief system not based on evidence and that actively discourages the questioning of its axioms is contemptible.

Sometimes you win people over by being better at biblical literacy tests than they are, and sometimes by pointing out just how fucking dumb they are. I'm ok with having multiple strategies.

I am a Christian who attends a very Biblical-based Bible Church

It's a Biblical-based Bible Church. Which is great. Because those Bible Churches that were based on The Joy Of Cooking never really took off.

Now we know where Andrew Shirvell is spending his leave of absence: as a really dim-witted moron in Oregon.

Yeah I loved the 'those people' line. What would Jesus say, George, what would Jesus say. That line alone reveals the bigoted elephant in the room.

It's great that your church doesn't openly persecute gays... But you really can't be so shortsighted to not think that others do. I went to more than a few churches in my youth, and most didn't have a very good stance towards gays. I've never heard an entire sermon against gays, but I've definitely small stories and little comments against the 'lifestyle'. The fact that your organist left because 'he understood where the church stood on the issue' is a pretty blatant admission that your church does in fact look down on gays, and that they're not one of the community. Christ loved everyone and accepted everyone - your pastor should have told him to stay instead of telling the organist he understood why he left.

Bitching at Dan isn't going to change the reputation Christianity has - talk to your pastor and others in your faith about this.

So with no apparent irony *whatsoever* he relates the story of the only gay person he knows of in his church a) revealing his orientation and b) promptly LEAVING? To try and convince me how gay friendly his church is?

I wonder if he thinks his church is gay positive just because they didn't stone the guy outright or something.

What the hell are they teaching kids in lieu of critical thinking these days??

Clearly Bible colleges need to add lessons on correct apostrophe use to their curriculum.

I think George missed the point of Dan's first letter. The point was to be challenged, offended, and hurt. The point was to question your own ideals of love and acceptance. The point was also to empower those "other" or "real" Christians to take their church back and create a community of tolerance and acceptance and not of hate. It was supposed to be a big sobering slap to the face, maybe even an act of tough love.

"and we hope that he is doing well where ever he is." So compassionate!

wow. The Catholic church does a lot of shit wrong (like most other churches), but at least they require their priests to be able to FORM GRAMMATICALLY CORRECT SENTENCES.

Dan....man you should write a column about how it is ok to be gay and Christian. Essentially I think you bully Christians to a point that gays who want to be Christian feel even more excluded and depressed. So...it's cool to bash the hardliners....but I'd love to see some more validation of gays who want to be Christian. The kids that are stuck in a harsh religious environment want to see a way forward that doesn't include rejecting their religion. To some, religion is just as much a part of them as being gay. The bottom line: help the kids that love religion and the same sex.

So, I have a question to put to every Christian out there. When's the last time you heard a preacher say to homosexuals as a group that god loves you and it's fine to be yourselves and you're not going to hell because of who you love or what you do to them? Because I think that'd make national news and I haven't heard jack-shit.

When THAT happens I think Dan might be happy with a preacher.

@37 "Because those Bible Churches that were based on The Joy Of Cooking never really took off."

Yeah, but their bake sales ROCKED.

Late to the thread, and others have said what I would have, and more coherently, so, I'll just add: Getting on ANOTHER plane? Jeez, Dan, one of these days you should investigate the concept of resting....

@39 - In lieu of critical thinking, these days they are teaching the kids nothing. And 'No Child Left Behind', with its radical re-engineering of school curricula and emphasis on teaching to the tests, simply reinforces the shift away from logical and rational thought processes. The younger people at my office are great at getting facts right, but when they have to discuss something from the facts and draw a conclusion they're helpless, and it's painful to watch them because nearly all of them have advanced degrees.

You'd think that people who worship a guy who literally got crucified for telling people "love thy neighbor as if he were yourself" would have a sense of perspective about what "persecution" means. Nope.

@52: That's just, like, your opinion, man.

Okay, hatespeech.

Please show me chapter and verse of where, exactly, Dan's words incite violence? Where they are fanning the flames of viciousness, or giving legions of people of whatever stripe the moral justification to go beat the crap out of christians?

Is he calling you murder-loving (because you worship and extol some man who was brutally, viciously executed), or child-raping (catholic priests), or pig eating goy? Oh, wait, none of those really stick, because THERE ARE NO COMMON, INGRAINED, OFFENSIVE, AND SAID OUT-OF-HAND INSULTS FOR CHRISTIANS.

There's nothing for christians IN COMMON AMERICAN USAGE that carries anywhere NEAR the same spiritual weight as fag, dyke, nigger, spic, kyke, slant, chink. There's no christian bargaining equivalent to jewing down, there's nothing remotely close to a christian hat to match raghead.

Okay, moving along. Did Dan call you in your home, and threaten to hurt you? Assault you? Smash your things? Did he tell you that you should commit suicide, because you're not worth walking on the earth? Spit on you? No? Okay, did he say on radio or TV that you deserved to be beaten? That you were inherently evil? How about that you were the gravest threat possible to society?

None of that happened. I've seen a bunch of interviews, heard on the radio, read a few. He's consistently called out BAD BEHAVIOUR, and said that gay children committing suicide was a direct consequence of hate-speech from the pulpit inciting gay-bashing, exclusion, and violence.

So put on your big boy underoos, have a good look at yourself and your congregation, and make it the place you claim it to be.

@48 I've heard precisely that, repeatedly, insistently and consistently, from the likes of Desmond Tutu and many like him. BTW I'm an atheist, non-believing, Christianity-is-silly, kinda guy - but there ARE Christians saying exactly what you wish to hear them say. Some really do behave like Christians. I'm fond of an anecdote describing how an atheist, on meeting Tutu said rather stridently "I don't believe in god" Tutu replied, in complete good cheer and meaning it the most generous sense "don't worry, he believes in you" It might make some sense to stop painting a whole group with the same brush - that's bigotry - just as surely as "Christians" painting all gays the same.

@48 - I'm not a Christian, but my dad is. He's completely unequivocal about supporting and accepting me. He has a friend from church whom I don't care for (and who I'm sure doesn't care for me), but my dad has never gone along with any of the bigoted, asshole things his friend says. He's even working on getting his congregation in Bothell to declare themselves "open and affirming", which might even drive off the one or two bigots there.

Ultimately, what the church says is of little concern to me, but I've always felt welcome there and really appreciate the support from my parents.

When pro-gay christian churches attack homophobia as loudly as the antis promote it, I'll give some thought to this butthole's feelings. Until then, fuck him.

The magic of the supremacy of science over poorly-studied religion is this: science is working on -- and will find -- a cure for HIV/AIDS. That's a given. They will never in any foreseeable future, however, find a pill that cures stupid.

LGBT folks, no matter in what defined incarnation they were in -- gays, queers, sodomites, buggerers, two-spirits, horny tribesmen, libertines in France, married men in middle ages europe, etc. -- have existed to a very healthy lifespan for the bulk of human history. Condemnation spurred on by a mere blip in human history is the sort of "here comes the letdown" thinking that makes frothing mad turn to apocalyptic sadness.

"Oh my god, the HIV/AIDS epidemic in the gay community", yes, yes, we get it, it's red meat for haters. Lots of people get it, but for those who do, those who watch and those who condemn, it makes very little difference in the fundamental facts of one's ultimate demise and the ultimate defeat of the virus itself. Not to mention the irrelevance of the "HIV/AIDS is punishment for being gay or having too much sex" argument.

You will all die someday, and HIV/AIDS will have its cure someday. The end*.

Now who wants tacos?

*unless we get hit by an asteroid

Okay, George, here's one way to be taken slightly more seriously: never, never use an apostrophe to make a plural. Got it? That means every reference you make to Church's (or gay's, for that matter) is wrong. Also, church isn't capitalized, even if it's "a very Biblical-based Bible church." A church is a plain and normal noun. All churches are nouns. Now see? Wasn't that an easy lesson?

I find it odd that all of these Christians that are writing in saying "I am not like that! I am nice and accepting!!!!" usually throw in, "Most churches don't hate gays". I grew up in a religious household; church every Sunday, private Christian school from 6th to 12th grade, forced youth group meetings during the week. Gay bashing was so the norm. It enraged me, especially when I was in high school and my best friend (a gay male) was followed around after school one day at the Albertson's he worked at by a pickup truck with some male youths from our school with a bullhorn yelling "FAGGOT" at him as he pushed carts.

My school had chapel on Wednesdays, which was basically a church service we all had to attend between classes for about an hour and a half. one Wednesday, our speaker was a gentleman who claimed that he had been living a "gay lifestyle" when he was in his early twenties, but now in his fourties, he was no longer gay and was married with a wife and child, and he started talking something or other about God's love setting him free, which I thought was a sad state of self remorse in many ways, but that wasn't even the worst part; there was literally an UPROAR afterwards from the students: "How dare a faggot come to our chapel!" That was all anyone could talk about, was how they were so upset that the school would allow a former gay man to be our speaker.

Christians need to stop trying to play this whole thing off as a minority problem, because it isn't. Every Christian establishment I have ever come into contact with has had the same bigoted mindset, whether they were joking about it in passing or preaching about it on a stage. If Christians want the rest of us to believe that they do not preach hatred to gay people, they need to go to the MAJORITY of Christian groups and churches and private schools and tell them that they are ashamed of how they are represented.

@48 - yeah, I'm with 57 there. I also don't care about religion or god, but in any larger city it really doesn't take much looking to see the rainbow flags, triangles etc. on a whole bunch of Unitarian, United, or Episcopalian churches (or progressive synagogues for that matter). The only time I come into contact with clergy is during weddings of friends, but on those I've heard prayers and sermons denouncing homophobia, advocating gay marriage etc.
I'd guess for most of the people in those churches, their church is less central to their life than for those in gay-bashing churches, which is one reason you hear less of them. The other reason is the nature of media - "God hates Fags" is just a better story than "God loves all her creation".
But also, people in those churches mostly aren't that whiny - the letters Dan keeps getting are the exception rather than the rule I'd guess.

@58 Good for your Dad. Elsewhere in Bothell...

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/1725…

The good Christians, the ones who believe not just in tolerance but in acceptance and love of those who are different from them, have no reason to be angry at Dan. If anything, they have reason to be angry with the bigoted homophobes who call themselves Christians while persecuting and singling out the poor, downtrodden, weak, disenfranchised, ostracized, etc. It is their actions, ignorance and intolerance that cause all of Christianity to be painted with an intolerant, homophobic, racist and otherwise extremist brush. Dan's comments are merely a reflection that the dominant message from people calling themselves Christian is intolerance. If you want to change the dominant perception of Christianity, shout about your love and acceptance from a mountaintop until the perception of Christianity is changed.

And if you are an intolerant, bigoted kind of Christian, just go fuck yourself.

"I am a Christian who attends a very Biblical-based Bible Church."

He's a CHRISTIAN? Who attends CHURCH? Preposterous, I know, but it's not just a Church (capital C because it's a proper noun kinda church), it's a A BIBLE CHURCH, where I can only assume they follow the Bible--unlike the other churches I've been to, which just follow the entire Lady Gaga catalog as scripture. And--get this--this CHRISTIAN goes to a BIBLE CHURCH that is BIBLICAL-BASED (where adjectives can modify verbs, of course). THEY MAKE THOSE NOW? HOLY SHIT--wait, can I say that? Or are his feelings going to be hurt?

...Is the ACLU gonna contact me about my grammar bullying now? I'm not condemning people who can't work a proper syntax in their native language, I'm just going to let them know that I don't consider them human. That's all.

@64 - I realize I'm one of the lucky ones. Any family I have who doesn't accept me is about two thousand miles away and, for all intents and purposes, isn't my family. And I live in one of the most liberal (and one of the gayest) cities in the country, so there's no shortage of community here. It's too easy to forget that not every gay kid is going to grow up with my parents in Seattle.

While a person certainly doesn't have to be religious to have antipathy towards gays & lesbians, and while there are enlightened religious people who don't feel there's anything "wrong" with homosexuality, I would bet that most negativity towards gays & lesbians is based in religion, specifically the three monotheistic religions.

@47: Dan is an atheist and has said so on numerous occasions. Is it really an atheist's job to explain to gay Xtians that the two are compatible? And guess what, if by "Christian" you mean someone who believes in the literal words of the new and old testaments, then the two ideas aren't compatible! You can only make them compatible by choosing to ignore select passages from the books, and if it's ok to ignore select passages of the books, then apparently they aren't this complete guide to morality after all. "Christians" become more and more progressive the more they ignore their holy books, ever notice that?

I wanna see a video go viral that is a preacher up on the pulpit on Sunday saying that they look forward to officiating the weddings of their gay flock once gay marriage is legal.

@5, Matt, you are so right.

George, every single church I've went to (and there have been a lot; I've gone to church my entire life and moved a lot) has talked about homosexuality being wrong, asked homosexuals to leave the church, and done their part to continue the idea that marriage is a right that only belongs to straight people.

Also...bible college in Portland, Oregon? That seems far fetched. ;)

I love that he thinks you can file a lawsuit against "Hate Speech"!! (I love that "Hate Speech" is capitalized, as if it's a proper noun, like, say, "God".) He probably heard on Glenn Beck that Christians were being silenced by the Obama Government for "Hate Speech."

This letter is a joke, right?

Whatever that is in the air of your church that compelled your organist to leave -- that's bullying. It's "where the Church stood on the issue." You don't have to say "god hates fags" to be an effective bully.

"Matter of fact, just a few years ago, our choir director went to our pastor and told him he had an inclination of being gay, and understood where the Church stood on the issue, and respected it, so he and the pastor hugged, cried together, and he went his way, and we hope that he is doing well where ever he is."

This is how you treat your brother, the very image of God who Jesus taught you to love as yourself?

Dan speaks infinitely more Christian truth you have here when he tells us that we must repent of this hate in our name and beg forgiveness of those who we've wronged. May God also forgive us this sin, but only when we've made it right.

@48, I know this won't be a popular thing to say on Slog, but to answer your question, every pastor I've ever had in the United Church of Christ has made a point of LGBT inclusive/LGBT positive sermons, including gay-rights focused events and gay rights discussions. I have also attended a few LGBT-positive events at Unitarian Universalist gatherings (some of which consider themselves Christian, some deist), and a few Episcopal churches. Thanks to Jeremiah Wright, UCC has gone from "who?" to "oh, THOSE nutjobs," in American culture, but before Jeremiah Wright, back when no one knew or cared what UCC was (in reality, UCC is one of the oldest branches of mainstream Protestantism in the US - which is nothing to brag about, just pointing out that UCC is older than, say, Lutheran. Or Baptist.)... anyway, back in the days when no one knew who the hell UCC was, they were the ones running the "God rejects no one" commercials. You know, with the gay couple, and the pierced kids, and the people in wheelchairs, all mixed in amongst the commoners. And that campaign - the "Not all Christians are hatefilled nutjobs" campaign - went nowhere, because the Christians who *are* hatefilled nutjobs don't acknowledge UCC, and the atheists and agnostics who think all Christians *must* secretly be hate-filled nutjobs don't want to re-examine the idea that some Christian churches, as institutions, really do speak out against hate.

I went to my first Pride, age 4, with my gay uncles (now celebrating their 28th anniversary, iirc). I went to my second Pride, and many thereafter, with my church... UCC. AFAIK, UCC churches all around the US take a delegation there every year (youth and adults, gay and straight). Why haven't you seen us? Because it is *against* the UCC creed to witness or proselytize. I think I might've said "I'm with Central" [the church's name] *once* at Pride, ever, because we are not *there* to tell everybody about magic sky god Jesus. We're there because it's Pride and some of us are queer and some of us are "queer allies" and dammit, Pride is important and fun. You wanna ask me about my church, I assume you'll ask me about my church (I did come in a church van with United Church of Christ on the side). But we are at fucking *Pride*, so - even when I've been at Pride with my church - I'm usually concerned with that hot guy over there, or that important political thing I need to be aware of over *there*, or that veeery nice bit of leatherwork over *there*, or whatever.

The whole "where are the good Christians" argument is a tough one, because the problem is, the "good" ones *don't* feel the need to bludgeon anyone with their beliefs. Which is part of what makes them "good ones," no? So, by design, we're less visible. Don't confuse that, however, with an unwillingness to stand up for justice. It's just that some of us don't "stand up for justice in the name of JAY-sis the LORD!".... because, it's not "in the name of Jesus," which implies that only those who believe in Jesus are mandated to be decent people. Ergo, when a UCC person (or a Unitarian Universalist, or a liberal Episcopalian) stands up for justice, we don't do it "in the name of" anything. We just say "hey, don't use hatespeech, that's cruel. Excuse me, why are you taunting so-and-so? I'm sorry, I can't hang out with you if you speak that way/believe that X group of people is better than Y group." We say "That's unacceptable." It's not "unacceptable to my god" (which might or might not be your god)... it's fucking unacceptable for *human beings*.

So, are you tired of listening to a liberal christian yet? I'm told we're strange and slightly insufferable. ;)

Excellent point, rocketscientist @76, and one that I wish I had made myself. The only way to prove that you're not "one of them" is to join us in the fight against bigotry, not whine to us that we're right but it's just so upsetting for us to call out the bigotry of their churches.

It is evident from the foaming rants of the unregistered commenter(s) that some folks out there are feeling under attack, vulnerable and lashing out.

So how is your faith helping you with that? Does unloading all this bile help you demonstrate the glory of your religion? Does your belief require you to defend it with such rage and hatred? Because from my perspective it seems that you are providing the evidence that some believers - such as yourself - are emotionally in a pretty horrible place.

"God loves you but you're gonna burn in hell" ... seriously? This is what your gentle saviour is like? Shit, I'd hate to meet him in a bad mood.

I think you need to sit back and ask yourself why you are getting so hot under the collar about homosexuality. To me it reads like you are having a personal conflict - why else are you hanging around a very gay oriented blog, filled with viewpoints that are certain to be contrary to your beliefs?

Is this a case of protesting too much?

MissJess @ 73,

Just off of the top of my head and therefore not complete:

Portland Bible College
Multnomah Bible College and Seminary
North Portland Bible College
Northwest College of the Bible

In the Portland surrounding area:
George Fox University
Warner Pacific University

Hi George,

Sometimes Dan gets it into his head that it's his moral obligation to be a dick about something. I know it must be upsetting, and please rest assured that it's also very frustrating for those of us who generally agree with his politics but value civility. If possible I'd recommend that you just roll your eyes, make an exasperated noise, and try to ignore him.

Have a good one.

Hi Dan,

Could you maybe tone down the dickishness?

Love, lil

@76 FTW

@80 Yes yes yes! That's what i keep saying. Our activism may be faith-inspired, but it's less likely to be faith-branded.

@80, Thanks for your thoughts. I for one am definitely aware of the good, tolerant Christian churches that are out there.

I think what the world needs is for people like you and your church to not only oppose bigotry, but to do it AS CHRISTIANS. The media has got to start showing that not all Christians behave or think this way, and the only way that's going to happen is if enough people start speaking out that they can't continue to ignore it.

This also relates to why the inclusionary ad campaign did not get more attention. Was it clearly a Christian ad campaign? If not, then how would people appreciate a gesture that they don't know is being made?

@ 48

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…

And, other's who have contributed to the IGBP.

And, last weekend while sitting in church I was visiting. Last January in the church I attend. Last June when the church I attend participated in the Portland Pride Parade.

There are also a few high-profile gay religious officials. I think there's a lesbian pastor who was in the news, and of course there is Gene Robinson.

I'm a little confused . . is he talking about his church or a Church's chicken?

@91 - You win. You may collect your prize at 1 Internet Lane.

George, I live so deep in the deep South that I have to take my shoes off outside to keep from tracking the Jesus all over my hardwood floors. I don't know from Portland, but down here there are quite a few Christians who do really get it. There are folks down here who strive to walk with Christ as Christ loved us and live his message of unchanging love for all people. They're a minority, but they're far from rare.

And I say this to you, every last one of them has the exact same attitude when the organist comes out. Every last one of them understands that Jesus loves the gays every bit as much as he loves all the rest of us sinners.

If you're not welcoming the gay organist with the same love and acceptance with which you welcome the glutton, the driver of the gas-guzzling SUV, the occasional card cheat, and the unrepentant elevator-farter, you ain't one of them.

@93 I really liked your post, except I have to respectfully disagree on one point: Unrepentant elevator farters are going straight to hell, and that's a fact.

Dan hit the nail on the head. What kind of numbskull thinks that he actually goes to a "gay-friendly" church when someone acutally outs themselves just to leave?

"the emotions I am feeling from this and the psychological affects are almost overwhelming"

Seek professional help George, an apology won't cure you.

"We for the most part really don't care what you people do. You live your lifestyle, and we live ours."

Are you hearing voices too? Or is that a collective WE meaning EVERYONE in your church?

"he had an inclination of being gay, and understood where the Church stood on the issue"

How did the organist know where "the church" stood on the issue if it wasn't ever discussed IN church? Was he taken aside and told he would no longer be welcome? Was he sent an email, did someone put a note on his car, or on his organ, or leave him a voice mail? How did everyone IN church know why he was leaving? Was he told he could stay or did everyone want him to leave? Did you or anyone else object and ask him not to leave? Did you or anyone else apologize to him for not wanting him in your church any longer?

YOU AND YOUR CHURCH are homophobic George and that is precisely why you people won't ever get an apology. Dream on dirt bag.

Ha ha, did someone put a note on his organ?!

My bad.

George, we don't hate you, we simply disagree with your lifestyle. We're sorry we'll have to part ways. Bye-bye!

P.S. what the hell is he doing reading Dan Savage anyway?

@96 - It's the Royal We. George is the queen. Or a queen, anyway.

puddles @98 and MacCrocodile @99, that's what I thought too. He's having trouble with his own sexuality and wants someone to blame. Or maybe he wants someone to talk to and he's going about it bass ackwards. That would explain why he's reading Dan Savage and The Stranger.

@97 Totally thought you meant to do that! (Funny both ways..) Great comment, too!

@65: This is probably the least stupid thing you said in that comment, but as someone with an actual understanding of science, I feel compelled to point out that AIDS is not caused by a microbe.

@94: A downward-traveling chamber filled with the sulfurous stench of putrefaction? That's a farted-in elevator, all right, and quite likely going down the primrose path.

@96, it was a coded message. Someone (probably the minister) put tulips on his organ.

Ah well. In late, but early in the second hundred.