What I am wondering is why won't the wife have sex? Must be something deeper there.

Very strange advice from the counselor. If your wife refused to speak to you about anything but practical and logistical matters for ten years, would the counselor advise you to simply wait?

Probably a church "counselor". No doubt they gave themselves another notch in their belt for another traditional marriage saved. Good one, guys.

Yeah, give it another ten years, she may come around

Gendun:
Sex is a luxury, and only shallow people want it from the people they have devoted their love and loyalty too. Didn't you get the memo? Most therapists did.

NumberOne:
Maybe. Some people just don't like or don't want sex, or move to that later in life. Problem is, they often marry those that do, or want to stay with them despite the change.

I can't be the only one who believes that asexuals need to come out of the closet NOW, for their happiness and that of others. Seriously, folks, you're like Teh Gayz twenty years ago: come out already, it's better for everybody.

Predictable, yes, but still perfect advice!

So, who knows what's going on with the wife that she doesn't want sex... but for her to tell the guy he's "loyal, like a dog?" What a bitch.

What is up with these "counselors" who refuse to acknowledge that there is a reasonable expectation of sex in a marital releationship? If one partner doesn't want to live up to their end of the bargain, the other partner should be able to seek sexual gratification (safely) outside of the marriage. Period. Some people lose libido over time, and that's OK, you can still love each other and build a life together. But the whole "I don't want sex anymore so you don't get sex anymore" idea is ridiculously stupid, and it's terrible that marriage counselors are reinforcing it.

Time to lay down the law to wifey: One way or the other, you're not going to spend the rest of your life going without sex. How that plays out is up to her.

Teenagers are old enough to survive a divorce. The second this guy find a woman who genuinely wants to fuck him, he's going to want out of his obviously loveless (in addition to sexless marriage). If he breaks off his marriage due to an affair (in the eyes of his kids), they will HATE him for it, which is why Dan's advice of cheating for the sake of the children is always so fucking idiotic.

Great last sentence with the nested asides. I like your mind.

@5:

So if sex is such a meaningless, "shallow," "luxury," why is it such an awful betrayal to do this meaningless shallow thing with someone else?

And there's another memo that both you and the therapist didn't seem to get: humans (or at least the overwhelming majority of us) are sexual beings. Sex is important. Even the guy's wife agrees -- otherwise, why would his fucking around be "disloyal"?

DTMFA. Seriously.

DTNFA?
(Dump the non-fucker already)

Something really doesn't add up here. Wifey says sorry, but no no never again. Counselor says, be patient, give her some more time? How much time? They haven't had sex in ten years? And it was infrequent before then? Does the counselor suggest giving it another ten years or what? Sounds suspicious to me.

Whatever. I say, LLAD, before you jump straight to FTW, FTC, and go out and indulge your canine proclivities, you give them both a big dose of humoring them. Say, okay. Set a timetable for how much longer you're going to patiently endure this sex-deprived nightmare you say your marriage has pretty much always been. One month may be too short, six months is almost definitely too long. Tell them that's the deadline and if she hasn't changed her mind by then, then fuck 'em both (figuratively) and commence the extra-marital knob polishing.

i wonder if there's info here that was edited out for the sake of brevity, or if the letter writer didn't say. why is the wife refusing sex? did her vagina get all fucked up with the last birth and now sex is uncomfortable and awkward (happened to a friend of mine)? did her husband gain 60 pounds and now she finds him repulsive? does she have an endocrine problem and a serious deficit of desire-producing hormones? or is she honestly just a manipulative bitch? i don't think the answer to this question necessarily changes what the letter writer should do (he should get some - whether he can get it from his wife or someone else), but the answer does give us an idea of how he should feel about it, and how he should frame the issue to the kids.

and 9 is totally right in that the kids will be more pissed about finding out about "cheating" than they would be over a divorce for reasonable reasons. i think the letter writer owes it to the kids to find out why the wife is withholding (if he doesn't already know) before either leaving or finding a way to get some on the side.

So sorry, LLAD. I, personally, appreciate your effort to honor your wife, family, shared life, etc. That is really admirable. Please don't forget to honor yourself. It is my opinion that you have neglected yourself for too long. You deserve happiness, too. For a shared life to work, both of you have to compromise. If she expects you to spend the rest of your life without intimacy, because she is not interested in participating, then you need to consider getting that need met without her. She needs to understand that fact. And, don't feel bad for wanting and needing to be loved intimately. Only the two of you know if it can be done within the marriage or if the marriage has come to an end. Good luck.

The ersatz counselor needs to find a new line of work. It's as if sex were some unimportant matter that people should not prioritize. In reality we are sexual beings and it is legitimate to make it important enough to make or break a marriage. If she will not negotiate then finding sex with another partner is a morally justified. BTW don't let anyone tell you that it is impossible to conceal a relationship outside of marriage. It happens all the time and besides it is social control myth that all behavior has consequences.

Ten years is a significant percentage of one's adult life. It is far too long to go without something as psychologically important as intimacy, let alone sex. It is beyond cruel for anyone to subject another person, let alone someone they purport to love, to that kind of deprivation.

If he is starting to hate her, I guaran-fucking-tee the kids already know that. They'll be better off without parents who hate one another. DTMFA and get on with the rest of your life. You and your wife are no longer suited to one another, and the collateral damage will start to accrue in your kids soon. Get out while you can still be at least remotely civil to one another.

And the counselor should be shot.

She's taunting you. Go nuts on some bitches.

Also, fire your counselor.

"loyal like a dog"
The wife is an emotional abuser. That line says a LOT to me. She knows she has control so she exacts it. She may even want sex, but she is exerting her control. DTMFA.
Or, at least, have an affair. You already said you would so DO IT. You deserve it.

"loyal like a dog"
The wife is an emotional abuser. That line says a LOT to me. She knows she has control so she exacts it. She may even want sex, but she is exerting her control. DTMFA.
Or, at least, have an affair. You already said you would so DO IT. You deserve it.

@ 11 - Seeker @ 5 wasn't being sincere. Seeker was making fun of the notion that sex is shallow and unimportant, and the therapists that seem to hold that idea. Chill.

Honestly? At this point, staying married seems like the worst possible option. The kids are teenagers; they'll be all right. They'll understand. Even if she hands you a permission slip to fuck around, do you really want to still be part of this marriage for any reason besides the kids (and the fact that moving out is annoying and difficult)? Even if she does offer up sex again, it'll be grudging and unenthusiastic and she'll use revoking it as a bartering chip. Just get out. She lost her chance after the first few years of sex only three times a year.

@11: I'm fairly sure @5 was being sarcastic.

@9: Would better advice be to tell the kids that he hasn't had sex for ten years, so he's going to start getting some on the side? This is a genuine, non-rhetorical question. My sense is that teenagers would be royally squicked by knowing any details of their parents' sex lives, but fronting the "affair" might keep the kids from hating him later on. It's probably better than a divorce, at any rate.

hahahaha! marriage! hahhaha!

The bitch should put out or get out and shut up or fuck off. Anyone of those is acceptable. But she won't because, well you know, he's so loyal and all and she doesn't think it'll ever happen.

I think he should take the extra precaution of filing for legal seperation, even if he decides to continue to live in the same house for the kids sake. It could save him a lot of money, time and the whole ordeal in a divorce if the wife decides to seek compensation from his cheatin' heart for his cheatin' ways. Loyal smoyal lady, good luck with that one.

I thought the response after the jump would be a one acronym word :)

I don't understand people staying in situations like this. It's incredibly common, so I'm not *surprised* anymore but I don't *understand* it.

I got out of something sorta kinda similar (no kids, no counselors included) and I'll tell ya, LLAP it will be both the hardest thing (leaving everything you know which is *comfortable*) and the best thing you've ever done (getting self respect back? priceless).

You will never find self respect with someone who makes a comment like that, regardless of the context in which it was made.

she's fuckin' the counselor!

Women just don't need sex the way men do. Especially as we age. It's physiological. If she won't see a doctor to test her hormones then give her an ultimatum. Either she gets to the bottom of her lack of desire or you get your needs met elsewhere. The irony is it probably won't be many years before your needs diminish as well.

This marriage is doomed. It's not just the lack of sex (for 10 years!), but also the lack of any kind of intimacy or respect (loyal like a dog?!) or even the hope that therapy will lead to something better. Get out of the marriage and give yourselves and your kids an alternative to this toxic situation. I disagree with the advice to get some on the side while you are still married (unless it is limited to paid sex with a sex worker). Maybe that works for a broken marriage without kids, but you need and deserve intimacy as well as sex, and that can only come from a meaningful relationship, which you should not pursue while you are still married, unless you want your kids to hate you forever. Some other woman will appreciate rather than mock your loyalty and who knows, maybe your wife will find a guy that brightens her life more than you seem to do (not that it's your fault that you seem to be a bad match).

Jesus fucking Christ.

To LLAD's wife: Lady, I was you for a bit, when I was growing up, or so I thought. For various reasons of varying accuracy. I truly and sincerely believed I was asexual, and...the entire time I did? I DIDN'T HAVE A FUCKING RELATIONSHIP. No dating, no flirting, I kept myself fucking quiet. And it's not because I was aromantic, it was because I was doing the good and responsible thing as far as I was concerned. I didn't have the words or the terminology to separate aromantic and asexual, so I shut it off completely. And then I grew up a lot, got past a lot of childhood fuckery, and discovered I was a kinky little nympho after all.

Now, you seem to have made the opposite journey. There are two takes on what this might be. In the first, you were dishonest about your interest in sex from day one. I'm sorry, but marriage entails a certain expectation of sex, and while I am the last person to justify marital rape, no sex in ten years points to complete disinterest and thus dishonesty.

If you were initially interested in sex, and if now, for non-physical (illness, hormonal changes) having that sex feels like abuse to you, there's more wrong with the marriage than your own libido, in which case you need to get the fuck out, now, for both your sakes. Please don't make him feel like a cheating asshole because you've found yourself a cosy little arrangement where you get to have what you want and turn him into a guilty mess for not letting you have it cheerfully enough.

The other take is that you genuinely tried. You gave sex your best shot, but you're asexual while not being aromantic, and you still want your marriage to work, but you're not willing to have sex. Fine. Again, no compulsion to have sex. You may, however, want to take a good look at what this is doing to your spouse. The emotional damage of having a spouse who is revolted by sex with you. The physical and emotional consequences of not having a perfectly natural and expected intimacy with you, that is such an important part of marriage. You are denying him the chance for a sexually fulfilled life - and saying YOU do not need it, so he mustn't either, is rather like a blind man demanding everyone be blindfolded. You are shattering his self-esteem, his ability to express love, his intimacy and connection with you (that take a form that you, in marrying him, explicitly agreed to).

Perhaps this seems permissible to you. Perhaps sex isn't that important a connection between the two of you after all, your love is an ethereal and pure thing untainted by even one good orgasm a year. In that case, it shouldn't affect this (pure, spiritual, religious) connection at all if he indulges his sexual needs elsewhere, hm?

I'm not advocating you have sex when you don't want to. I'm telling you to fucking grow up and ensure that YOUR HUSBAND, whom you committed to and presumably love, is happy in your marriage - or else free him to be happy in another. He's willing to have an open relationship, willing to stay with you for some fucking reason, and that puts you squarely in the wrong, and makes you a manipulative little shit if you refuse to take the offer. Woman up, and quit making good, honest asexuals look bad. They get enough shit without it.

Counselor and wife are having an affair.

That's why gawd made escorts.

@27 Something about great minds

Let me get this straight:

Wife doesn't want anything to do with sex or intimacy anymore. (Or, at least not with husband.) She has effectively, and explicitly, permanently renounced that part of their marriage contract. If he's willing to accept that modification of their contract (as opposed to using the abrogation as grounds for divorce), then their new, mutually agreed-upon marriage contract does not cover sex or intimacy.

So, like, if husband takes a girlfriend or two on the side, how exactly is that cheating? Cheating on who? Cheating on what? He never took a vow of celibacy when he got married.

That said, he should protect his legal and property rights beforehand somehow. Her emotional/sexual abandonment needs to be documented. A letter from her explaining she never wants to have sex with him again would be ideal.

@11: Read again for sarcasm.

@23,

I don't know, maybe, but it seems like parents have enough trouble just telling kids about birth control and safe sex. Would most be able to talk about their own sex lives with their kids?

I obviously didn't catch the tone of the "you're loyal like a dog" comment, but on paper, it's got a strong air of condescension and manipulation. Taking in account that, and that fact that your kids a teenagers now, not toddlers—I'd start preparing for a separation. Once you're out of the house, start dating or sleeping around or whatever your style is, but I wouldn't recommend someone in your situation just take a lover (ew!) or get caught using an escort, you could be opening yourself up to a legal nightmare.

She'll probably have sex again. With someone.

LLAP deserves some sexual intimacy, and perhaps his wife deserves to be cheated on after all she has put him through these last 10 years, we don't know that though, we don't know why she is so anti-sexual, but whatever the reason, I fail to see how him having an affair will make the situation any better. His wife doesn't seem to be okay with opening up the relationship, he'll either cause more strife between them and possibly his children by going about it openly, or he'll have to creep around and hide his activities which could be complicated and stressful. Further, this is someone who spent the last 10 years trying to resolve this situation, sounds like he is more interested in having both a sexual partner and life partner in the same person. If he stays with his wife, that is unlikely to happen, and I seriously bet he still ends up resenting and hating her.

He needs to leave her, tell her he is "sorry", but he needs to go be a loyal dog to someone who appreciates and rewards him for it. Divorce is neither fun nor pretty but it will be even worse if he has an affair his wife can use against him in court and as a wedge between him and his children. The children will probably not be thrilled their parents are divorcing, but they are teenagers, and if they can't understand why he needs to leave now, I am willing to bet that in a few years they will. He put in 10 years, and tried counseling (awful counseling, but still) she put her foot down and he needs to as well.

Child of divorce chiming in: LEAVE YOUR WIFE. You think the kids can't notice how much you guys hate each other? They can. Have two happy and functional parents in separat homes are netter than two angr bitter parents under the same roof. They'll get over the divorce faster than they'll get over livid with hatefilled parenting

@27 - my very first thought, exactly and succinctly stated.

Ordinarily, I don't approve of Mr. Savage's slamming of counselors, but if this one really said that the husband should do nothing but wait for the wife to change her mind AND did not tell the wife that she was being inconsiderate and should change, then said slam is merited.

Here's a question that any counselor worth his or her salt should have asked: Is the wife behaving so horribly to her husband--calling him a DOG--BECAUSE she wants him to have an affair? Then she could divorce him and not have to feel like it was her fault.

@36 I have relatives getting divorced, with three adult children. The wife was hurt by affairs the husband had. And, she wrote an explicit letter to the CHILDREN detailing the affairs.

Reading the "loyal like a dog" line in the letter makes me think she would be hurt by the affair and manipulate the teenage children with that information. It wouldn't be for years that the real story would come out.

On the other hand, if the life is bitter enough already, teenage children may desire the amicable divorce anyways, and wouldn't an affair complicate that?

The issue here isn't sex, it's abuse. And what kind of example of a successful loving relationship are you setting for your kids? You're a victim, and I guess about more than just sex.

The counselor may not be an idiot, just manipulated by the wife, too.

Or alternatively ... the counselor got her degree from an online university and/or religious institution?

Even your signature is a fatalistic self-putdown. LLAD, you need some good therapy for *yourself*.

Sounds like pretty bad relationship communication overall. What is her reasoning for not wanting sex? Does intimacy include curling up together watching a movie? Why on earth does the counselor think it may get better? Why would the wife say to her husband that he's loyal like a dog?

The danger of him screwing around on the side in order to stay sane and have some intimacy in his life is, of course, that the wife could divorce him and screw him over in divorce court. This is a pretty standard problem. How to get around it? He could divorce her first. Or he could wait until the kids are 18 and no longer eligible for alimony money. Or negotiate an open marriage. Although given the apparently level of communication, that may not be an option.

I agree with @43.. this is setting a TERRIBLE example for your kids. I grew up inside a loveless marriage, and it has affected me and my two siblings quite a bit.

Yeah, get your own therapy without her.

He said it himself: he hates her. She treats him like a dog and then taunts him with it. I do wonder why he thinks there will be a "turnaround" after ten years of celibacy, especially when she has stated explicitly that she will "never have sex again," but we didn't get to hear her side of the situation.

Leave. Get out. Find a woman who wants to have sex with you and who treats you with affection and respect. Don't have an affair, because the minute you meet someone who treats you decently and has sex with you, you'll want to leave the marriage, and your kids will hate you for cheating on their mom. It will also not help in any potential legal battles to be the one who "cheated."

But who said you have to tell your kids that you're leaving because your wife won't have sex with you? You two split up because you've "grown in different directions." Then you start dating after you're single. Your kids will survive.

@9 got it right. Everybody else can save the bandwidth.

Their is nothing unusual about this situation or the counselor's advice.

I"ll echo the same sentiments about the counselor - where did that person get their certification, a box of Cracker Jacks? Since the wife has stated in no uncertain terms that she never wants sex again (which leads me to believe she's either completely asexual or a closet case), it is astonishing that a counselor would advise to acquiesce. That's absurd!

PLEASE follow Dan's advice... sounds like nothing you can say or do will change your wife's mind (and there's no good reason to assess the apparent imbalance of the counselor's mind).

My parents divorced when I was 14. It affected my twin brother worse than me, who was afraid of losing my dad, but he settled down when he moved in with my dad. A year later, I wrote an award-winning essay about how it was better to have parents who were happily divorced than unhappily married. My parents stopped fighting once they got divorced, and we were never put in the middle. Parents who divorce have an obligation to make sure their children feel safe, protected, and loved. But they do not have an obligation to stay married "for the sake of the children" -- indeed, the kids will be better off with happily divorced parents than unhappily married parents.

Ugh. I really feel for this guy. Yeah, it totally sucks to get divorced but trust me your kids would not want you to stay in a relationship like this. And I should know because my parents were in a relationship like this. You only get one (relatively short) life...please do yourself a favor and give yourself the chance to find true intimacy with someone who desires and loves you. It really doesn't matter what her reasons are for withholding sex...circumstances have changed such that a HUGE part of your marriage is not working and hasn't been for a long time.

I'd really like some more details. Does she want to go out for dinner on valentines day for example? I'd tell my partner, in a nice way, that I'm going to go out and find someone, and let the chips fall where they may. Doesn't sound like she'd have a problem with it.
Teenagers are old onough to understand desire. So if they get their panties in a bunch over this tell them the truth. But not before trying some blood tests, she may just have low testosterone or something. This could be a windfall. He was patient, and IF it's something simple she will appriciate his FAITHFUL like a dog (FUCKING REPULSIVE CUNT thing to say BTW) waiting around and give it to him like in the 'olden days'. This is like 1/3 of your adult life sexless dude. Your wife is cruel and sadistic. Happy birthday honey, I got you a tie. Tie her ass to the bed with it and fuck someone else right in front of her!

DTMFA

"Loyal like a dog?" Seriously? Your wife has lost all respect for you.

The other thing that she has lost is her standing to object when you go find intimacy elsewhere, Sexually speaking, she has abandoned you as thoroughly as if she had moved to another state. Go find yourself a girlfriend. And don't even consider feeling guilty about it.

14: So tell the kids up front what is going on. It's not cheating when it isn't hidden. It may be something of an ultimatum, but when you lay it on the line that the choice is to either a) move out because Mom is refusing to have sex, or b) keep the family intact, but go get something elsewhere that Mom HAS NO INTEREST IN WHATSOEVER, and already has been withholding for an entire decade, the choice should be obvious.

If wife freaks out and divorce happens after he makes good on that plan, it's HER fault.

LLAD - You don't say if you love her. I assume you loved her at some point. You don't say if your sex life was ever satisfactory, but I'll assume it must have been since you've been married 23 years and are concerned for your teenage children (13-18). But the past is another country and I don't see a road back there for you. You've obviously tried--the counseling--and it is not working for you. As bitter as it is to accept, her issues with sex seem to trump any love she had for you and vice-versa, because if she loved you she would do whatever she could to see that you are sexually satisfied. From the little bit of yourself you put in the letter it sounds like you are dying a little every day. Separating yourself from her after all this time is going to be horribly painful but eventually you'd get through it and you'd have hope. Make the decision to move on and go slowly, with legal advice and maybe the support of a therapist that is yours alone. Fucking around (unless you pay for it) will only hurt an innocent bystander and will probably backfire with your relationship with your kids. If you can separate slowly and with thoughtfulness and PROFESSIONAL HELP, then hopefully your kids will not be damaged. Try to remember you aren't really being a good parent if you're this unhappy with your life and your marriage. Good luck.

@ 37: "She'll probably have sex again. With someone." -- Agreed.

Something about this seems off. Christian counselors are the ones who never advocate for divorce, but they're also often pretty big on the "woman's duty to please her man" business. I feel like the letter writer is leaving a very important something out.

@55 Sex At Dawn, do you mean? I can't seem to find one (surprisingly enough, one would think all combos involving the word sex would have been used in a book title by now) called Sex Before Dawn...

@21, 35. I'm a moron. Didn't take the time to read closely. But, as a seminary student who is training in chaplaincy/pastoral counseling, I run into this attitude from far too many of my colleagues. And they're entirely serious. Unless of course, all of evangelical Christianity is one great meta-joke. Which could very well be the case ;)

@57, I had the same impression. In fact the letter seems to describe such a clear case -- the husband is so obviously being wronged, the wife is so obviously not caring about him -- that I almost thought it was fake.

I'm with @1, we don't know why she doesn't want sex with him. Is he a lousy selfish lay and she got tired of being frustrated? Terrible personal hygiene? Puts her down constantly and treats her poorly? Doesn't pull his weight and she's constantly bone tired?

It could be entirely her fault. Could be hormones. Since we don't know, I'm not going to automatically put all the blame on the woman. I'd love to hear her side.

Getting older doesn't automatically mean women don't want sex. Even if tired and the hormones are slacking off, loving and feeling connected to your spouse will cause you to want to please them. I'm thinking that something is wrong here besides lack of drive on the part of the wife. Problems this deep are rarely entirely the fault of just one half of the couple.

@54: Telling the kids isn't right; it's a variant on yesterday's SLLOD: involving people in your sex life who deserve to be kept out of it.

They don't need to know why Mom and Dad are unhappy together; they probably can sense that M&D are unhappy.

@63: No shit. As a mother whose offspring are adults, I found that SLLOTD incredibly creepy. I don't want to know anything about my kids' sex lives and I don't want them to know about mine.

Following up on my earlier points, I think it's really dangerous to have an affair (for the purpose of preserving a marriage) when there's an obvious lack of any intimacy. If this guy has been starved for love and affection for ten years, I really doubt he's going to be able to compartmentalize his affairs. He'll want to leave his wife for his mistress, which will lead to some seriously uncomfortable Thanksgivings with the kids.

The counselor may not be an idiot, just manipulated by the wife, too.

Abusers are really good at getting counselors to see everything from their point of view, which is why victims of abuse (psychological, emotional, or physical -- it doesn't really matter which kind) should be extremely wary of counseling.

Yeah, Kesh, you got it the first time. You're absolutely right, too. I'll change my mind because of it, also: Don't give her an ultimatum, just DTMFA. The kids will deal with it. Bazillions of 'em do every year.

"Abusers are really good at getting counselors to see everything from their point of view, which is why victims of abuse (psychological, emotional, or physical -- it doesn't really matter which kind) should be extremely wary of counseling. "

keshmeshi nails it.
Also one of the many reasons that lawyers often hate counsellors, and are baffled why judges take them so seriously.

@62 Fault does not matter in this equation. She is refusing to ever have sex again, and therefore refusing to work toward a solution to a major martial problem, that makes her husband miserable. If she was saying, I won't have sex with you until you, get a job, or take a bath, or help out me out with our kids/chores, or a plethora of other things that make her miserable it would be one issue, one I could probably even sympathize with. However, she is flat out refusing to move forward toward a reasonable compromise. Even if it were an age/hormonal issue she should be at least willing to make an effort, but instead she is effectively throwing in the towel and he needs to as well.

Either this guy married a total narcissistic bitch and the counselor is a complete moron (or screwing said narcissistic bitch), or something has been left out of this letter. I say this simply because things are rarely as one-sided as they appear in this letter. Why did she stop having sex with him? That's never detailed. I mean, if she just unilaterally decided without explanation that they would never have sex again, I would advise him to run screaming. But I just can't see a counselor with an ounce of sense just saying "well that's just dandy" when the wife announces this. More details would be helpful, is all I'm saying.

My advice to LLAD: Divorce, then find a new girlfriend (or boyfriend). Do it in that order because you will eventually want to divorce and remarry, and affairs lead to unfavorable divorce settlements. Ideally, she's using language to compare you to dogs or other animals in front of witnesses, which will help in divorce proceedings. Also, I'd fight for primary custody if it comes up, because your kids are better off being raised by a loyal and devoted father than an emotionally manipulative mother.

See, the real story my child-of-a-divorce-lawyer brain got from this is that the wife has what she wants from this marriage - if I had to guess, it's kids, and some financial advantage. It sounds like starting 10 years ago she was daring him to have an affair so that she could pounce and get a favorable settlement with a bunch of child support or even alimony. So don't give her what she wants - divorce first.

Whatever happened to lying back and thinking of England?

I am surprised how much the "if he has an affair, it will count against him in the divorce" line is coming up. I know divorce laws vary by state over there, but, damn, does that shit still go on (in otherwise sane states)? Didn't y'all INVENT no-fault divorce? I guess Australia/NZ are not so backward after all.

One other possibility...hire a private eye, and have her tailed.

If the divorce is coming, better that you be as blameless as possible, and if she has some dirty laundry that would get you a more favorable settlement, it would be a shame to let her get away with it along with everything else.

I agree that "you wouldn't, you are loyal like a dog" sounds like a dare to me. Now I say don't fall into her trap. She's probably fucking a divorce lawyer.

@74:
There's no fault divorce. It's just harder to come to any kind of amicable settlement between the two of you if one spouse can pull the injured party position. If there is no clear "wrongdoing" for either one to use to justify being an asshole in trying to reach an agreement, it would probably go more smoothly.

If you really hate her, leave. It's pretty crappy to share your home and life with someobody you hate. Divorce before she hates you back, so that you can have some semblance of civility for the kids. Kids do NOT benefit from having two parents who hate each other together.

I can't speak for other jurisdictions, but Canada recently reintroduced fault through the back door, with the judges pretending that it isn't fault all the way.
Old position: fault and adultery do not play a role in determining support, property division, etc., period.
New position: fault and adultery can be considered if one party suffers emotional damages which constitute a separate cause of action, and THEN the hurt feefees can be used to screw the other spouse for everything they've got if the sums sought can be characterized as damages. But fault still doesn't go to a right to increased support or property division, m'kay? Glad we cleared that up, right?

Me 45, or whatever we're up to: who knows, she might have a legit reason for not wanting sex, but any empathy I might feel evaporates at "loyal like a dog". That's flat-out abusive. With those words, she terminated any claim on your affection, respect, or material support.

Who the hell are these women who don't want sex, anyway?

[continued from my last post]
So, the LW had better understand that if he has an affair -- if he lives in Canada, at least -- his ten years of being put off and humiliated into celibacy will count for ZERO. If he shags one woman and the wife becomes (or says she becomes) a gibbering wreck because of his Awful Betrayal(TM) and then "can't work" then it might be a pension for her and kraft dinner for him for the next fifty years.

Count me among the folks here who believe that she is having an affair (or wants to) . Even if not, she definitely wants him to be the one to get caught with another partner and carry the can for the failure of the marriage. The dog remark is a deliberate provocation.

DO NOT FOLLOW DAN'S ADVICE!
Keshmeshi @65, and the others recommending caution are correct. Based on what is presented, the wife has no compunction about abusing you and would happily use the courts to further that abuse. She dares you to have an affair (which suggests that she herself has had or is contemplating one herself), and then will pounce. In several states, an adulterous guy opens himself up to losing custody of his children - and ends up having to supply more than his fair share of child support and even alimony (according to Wikipedia, fwiw, adultery is even a felony in Wisconsin, so you could lose voting rights, too). In other states, it's up to the judge as to who gets the kids, so check up on the local divorce court's record.
Your options are: 1) File for divorce now and get out, getting 50% custody; 2) Document her emotional abuse and record it, and start snooping around for evidence that she is cheating, then file for divorce, hoping for custody; 3) Put up with the situation for 5 more years until the kids are out of the house (assuming they're all 13 or above now); 4) Put up with being her emotional punching bag for the rest of your life.

Dan never seems to "get it" that legally, marriage involves monogamy, even if that requirement is inhumane and causes so many marriages to fail. If Dan were in real danger of losing his adopted kid by having the occasional threesomes he writes about, you'd see his advice here change drastically; I suspect he'd be a lot more supportive of civil unions instead of marriage.

One way or another, he needs to get out. If he talks to your wife about having an affair, make sure he gets her ok in writing.

I don't know about Canada or other states, but he's been with her 23 years...she gets everything for the years they put in. She may have purposely held on to the occasional sex to get him past 10 years to guarantee her support for life.

I wonder where he is? Too bad we can't hook him up with someone the way the sub guy heard back from dom women last week.

I agree with the others that say divorce first, then girlfriend :-P I would be cautious that she seems to be double dog daring him, as it were.

I had a husband like that guy's wife. Note the past tense. I got out while I still could. He should do the same.

I also tend to think that this guy will explode into a billion pieces when someone gives him some genuine affection, and it will make a horrible mess out of everything. It's not a new problem, it's not a mystery problem, it's just a problem that half of the equation is not willing to change. I have a friend in a similar situation, staying (supposedly) for the children, and finding other women to give him affection: "45 is too young to resolve myself to never again being touched." And now, after 20-something years of being "loyal as a dog," he feels like complete scum and is terrified that his children will find out what's been happening and hate him for it. Lose-lose.

given that people who have sex regularly live longer, this woman is actually taking years off his life. (in addition to the job stress is doing to him). getting out or getting some may be an act of self-preservation. ten years and still faithful - gotta be a record.

might want to check to make sure wife isn't doing ole' wait and see.

there are many reasons. some people never really liked sex and get to the point where they are simply done pretending about it. it could be that she is depressed and taking anti-depressants which really do take the wind out of your sails! she could have a history of abuse, anything could be wrong. but at some point a person has to heal themselves - and that goes for both of them. when one person is content with the status quo and doesn't care how it affects one's partner, that is someone who doesn't need to be married anymore. ten years is loyal enough. time to go.

i don't recommend cheating for a number of reasons, but if he must, i hope it's with someone whose eyes are wide open and doesn't expect a real relationship with a man who won't leave his family.

Not enough info here.
I can't buy the counselor said wait, and she said never.
Fuzzy Facts afoot.

19/20 has it right - "loyal like a dog" is a contempt-filled, abusive thing for that woman to say to you. She has no right to treat you like this and to rub her face in her hatred and contempt for you.

GET OUT of this marriage. Your teenagers will be able to deal. And if you start cheating now, she'll probably use that as a way to get a divorce lawyer and take you to the cleaners for money, property and custody.

Seriously, DTMFA.

@28 I have to take issue with what you said. In fact, a friend's husband's doctor told him that as he and his wife were aging, he'd want sex less and she'd want it more. Women typically want sex MORE as we age, not less--it's the men who typically want it less (compared to how much they wanted it in their 20s) as they age. I gotta tell you, I used to think I liked sex--until I got a little older when I realized that was NOTHING compared to how much I like sex now. And that's just comparing my 20s to my 30s! I can't wait for effing 40!

The counselor sounds nuts, but I think there tends to be more sympathy for the one who doesn't want sex rather than the one who does and isn't getting it (at least amongst non-Savage readers). I think when people think about telling someone who doesn't want sex to "take one for the team", it sounds a liiiiiittle too much like rape--even though IT IS NOT LIKE RAPE AT ALL. Our society is extremely uncomfortable in these post-feminist days with asking a woman to do anything with her body that she doesn't 100% enthusiastically want to do. "Remember those awful days when a husband could just DEMAND sex out of his wife like she were his PLAYTHING? Uh-uh, that ain't happening to ME!" The problem is that the extremes of anything are usually bad. Treating women like they have to respond to DEMANDS for sex is wrong, but so is women acting as if men who genuinely want to have sex with their wives are shallow assholes who need to get over it because there is so much more to marriage is wrong, too. If she were having a real problem--a physical handicap, a serious mental disorder, a terminal disease--and still treated him with RESPECT, that would be one thing. I'm all about standing by your spouse when the going gets tough. But to just say, "I don't want to have sex and you just have to deal with it!"? That position garners no sympathy from me.

Charz163:
No, nobody has mentioned the health issue other than the four or five people who have mentioned it already.

Look, if she has got health issues she has had ten years to either see to them, or to address their impact on her marriage. Her response has been to hide behind the therapist, not give a shit about its impact on her husband and to mock him like he's a pet. As noted in other threads, illness or personal damage doesn't give her a get-out-of-being-human-free card. She still has an obligation not to be a shit.

It's been 10 years; that's obviously more than a hygiene or doesn't-help-with-the dishes problem. The fact that she so firmly insists they will never have sex again makes me want to take her at her word. Also, I have to believe that if depression or other medical issues were involved, he would have mentioned them. But, again, it's been 10 years.

I would tell the wife that they are going to see a different counselor: one who will help them deal with the family issues that arise during a divorce so they can maintain a positive attitude with the kids. There are plenty of places where no-fault divorce and joint custody are still available and the letter writer should check into this, if he hasn't already. I'd recommend filing for legal separation before he does anything. It's been 10 years; a few more months of celibacy won't make that much of a difference if he sees a light at he end of the tunnel.

Having suffered from any number of bad therapists in my day, it doesn't surprise me they found one who gives such lousy advice. I would suggest the wife chose that person specifically because she'd heard they take the wife's side.

And when was the last time someone was charged and convicted of adultery in Wisconsin?

I would suggest the wife chose that person specifically because she'd heard they take the wife's side.

Ding ding ding.

Others have noted, too, that the counsellor may be through a church. If so, LW's scope for saying "god, this counsellor is a sex-negative ignorant fool" may not exist. Worse, the counsellor may not be just a hack, but a propagandist for the sex-negative views of his congregation.

@95: I'm not a lawyer, but a cursory Google search found a Wisconsin case from 1990, not THAT long ago.
-And a conviction in Virginia from 2003, where the lover turned in the husband when he went back to his wife.
Yes, these are regressive laws, but they ARE on the books, and aggressive divorce lawyers will threaten to use them to win civil settlements and custody battles. Custody is the main threat - the guy has to decide whether his sexual need outweighs the real threat of never seeing his kids again, while the sex-negative wife can remain smug and call her husband a "dog."

wow, vince @28. that's really depressing.

"she has stated that she will never have sex again. The counselor says... maybe she will change her mind"

Was she raped? Has she experienced repressed memory resurgence from childhood abuse? Did the husband get drunk on his birthday 11 years ago & drunkenly (read: inexcusably) ignore her requests to be more gentle, take it slower? If - I repeat IF - any of these are true (& it's possible), then she has an understandable position. Not that he'd be required to be okay with that position. I want to know if the wife is being treated by a councilor outside the marriage who is not the marriage councilor.

Too little info in the letter to make a good judgment.

Seems pretty simple to me.

Go to a new counselor. Sit your wife down in front of the new counselor and ask her directly about her rationale for not wanting to be intimate. If her reasons have nothing to do with your direct or overt behaviour, yet she refuses to either alter her behaviour or (for that matter) even *give* reasons for her reluctance: find a lawyer.

IMHO, marriage means that the two of you have decided to become one, dammit! If she can't open herself to you, if she can't trust you enough to give herself to you, if she can't bring herself to be loved/fucked/etc. by you, she's obviously telling you that she doesn't want to be married. And as a man who's job entails giving various ED drugs to sheepishly happy people (some of whom are in their mid-60's to early-80's), I can tell you that another 20+ years of no pussy isn't going to make you any better of a person than you are now.

P.S.-If nothing else works, make the effort to find her clitoris.

Closeted lesbians with religious upbringings often behave like the wife in this story. Their own deep shame comes out as contempt for and manipulation of the unwitting husbands, and they feel (religiously) justified in their disgust at sex with men. But it's really just disgust with themselves...